Comments on: Access Linux Platform Demo Screenshots

What's running on it, you'll have to take the word of the guy who wrote the article. How's your Russian?

May You Live in Interesting Times

2) If the launcher Access finalizes on is incapable of presenting/listing ALL apps (PalmOS-native, MAX-native, Java-native and Linux-native) in a single view, this whole platform is rather poorly conceived. Having to manually enter a separate screen to access PalmOS apps through POSE would show how inelegantly PalmOS support has been grafted onto NetFrontLinux. Essentially this would mean the OS represents 4 disintegrated environments under one hastily-assembled roof.

3) PalmOS is DEAD. All that remains is (cynical) support of some PalmOS apps up to PalmOS 5. Cobalt and all the work that went into that have been thrown into the dumpster. PalmLinux (the tragic attempt to port Cobalt to a Linux kernel) and all the work that went into that have also been thrown into the dumpster. What remains of PalmOS is a caricature that makes a mockery of the past 4 years of development. PalmOS is now nothing more than a gimmick, like a mobile TV app or a high megapixel camera. The amazing thing no one seems to have realized is that it will make more sense to use StyleTap Platform to "emulate" PalmOS on a Windows Mobile device than it does to use POSE to emulate PalmOS on a NetFrontLinux device. StyleTap's existence effectively neutralizes any potential competitive advantage for Access of having POSE on NetFrontLinux. $320 million for the rights to POSE, a Chinese Linux phone OS and a few dozen Chinese Linux codemonkeys? W T F was Access thinking???

Benhamou,McVeigh, et. al. fooled 'em all.

TVoR

Copyright 2006
TVoR, Inc.

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Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

Due diligence, indeed!

The perfect irony would be if someday Microsoft allows an enterprising company to mimic the PalmOS UI (or even switch to and advanced tabbed launcher) and include a credit exchangable for a download of StyleTap Platform (among other apps so they can't get sued!) in the box.

All your POSE are belong to me™.

TVoR

------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

That's not what they paid the money for. You still haven't figured out what was worth so much to Access.

As a side note, I would argue that a "high megapixel" camera is hardly a gimmick. But then, my camera uses 4"x5" negatives with an effective resolution of 100dpi (that's 20 megapixels for those who don't care to do the arithmetic.)

May You Live in Interesting Times

If you don't mind my asking, what was it?

Tim Carroll
Your friendly customer service robot
(and big Treo fan)

May You Live in Interesting Times

That's not what they paid the money for. You still haven't figured out what was worth so much to Access.

Oh let me guess: buying PalmSource and their China MobileSoft division is somehow going to open up China and its hordes of potential future cellphone customers to Access. Dream on. Any company that tries to profit from China ultimaely gets screwed. And having the ancient PalmOS duct taped to NetFrontLinux is not suddenly going to make this Frankestein-style OS very appealing. Windows Mobile has the momentum and the numbers and will have a several year head start on NetFrontLinux by the time the latter OS is ready (assuming, of course it's EVER ready).

As a side note, I would argue that a "high megapixel" camera is hardly a gimmick. But then, my camera uses 4"x5" negatives with an effective resolution of 100dpi (that's 20 megapixels for those who don't care to do the arithmetic.)

Let me spell it out for you: PalmOS is now nothing more than a gimmick, like a mobile TV app or a high megapixel camera ON A CELLPHONE. PalmOS is now about to become just another "feature" that can potentially serve as fodder for the ad writers.

------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

Honestly, I don't know how much the CMS acquisition and the potential it's "access" influenced the price, but I've got to think it played a major role. In any case, I think the CMS acquisition by PalmSource certainly paid off for some people. We'll see if ACCESS can make it pay as well.

It might not be the "mythical color HandEra", but I'm liking my TX anyway.

Paul Allen has a few dollars.

He bought a major stake in RCN when the price was something like $50-ish/share (or maybe $30-ish...or maybe $60-ish).

Check out the price now.

Having money means you do things in a big way, not necessarily in a smart way.

Tell that to McDonalds and Renault.

And having the ancient PalmOS duct taped to NetFrontLinux is not suddenly going to make this Frankestein-style OS very appealing.

I'm not sure how much simpler I can make this statement, but I'll try: Access doesn't care about PalmOS. That's not why they bought PalmSource. Mike Kelley tried to convince me otherwise. The entire management of PSRC and Access behaved otherwise. But it was clear to me when Access announced, and it should be obvious to everyone now.

Windows Mobile has the momentum and the numbers and will have a several year head start on NetFrontLinux by the time the latter OS is ready (assuming, of course it's EVER ready).

Not in China, where mLinux is already shipping.

To you and me the difference between mLinux, PalmLinux, and ALP matters. To Haier, et al, it doesn't. All that matters is that they get to keep selling smartphones with ever expanding feature sets that don't run M$ operating systems.

As long as you keep trying to see the Access play as somehow relating to PalmOS, and not to linux-smartphone-in-Asia, you're not going to see either what they wanted or why they stand a good chance of success.

May You Live in Interesting Times

And he's having a lot of fun, doing it. Funding Burt Rutan's win of the X prize wasn't "wise investing", but I sure would have loved to been along for that ride.

Acess, on the other hand, has no prior track record buying companies, so it'll be interesting to see how they do on their first outing.

May You Live in Interesting Times

Tell that to McDonalds and Renault.

No, I'll just tell it to Microsoft (and almost any other big software company that has tried to bang the Chinese Dragon over the past couple of decades), Ford, General Motors, Chrysler, Palm, and a cast of hundreds of other rueful, remorseful American starlet companies that ended up getting soddomized on the Chinese Casting Couch (C³). Even a company that has achieved fleeting success in China like Motorola is really just being used by the Chinese and will eventually be chewed up and spit out now that the Chinese have benefitted from Motorola's IP and instruction. In 2004, the Chinese sold the United States $160 billion more in goods than they bought. In 2005 the China trade deficit skyrocketed to $200 billion. I'll leave it up to you to learn how Wal-Mart has become one of the biggest contributors to this deficit, while at the same time becoming a cancer on the American economy. Once the Chinese figure out the auto industry all he11 will break loose and they'll probably end up causing a recession in the USA, allowing the Chinese to swoop in and buy up American assets a firesale prices... China already has a disconcerting amount of control over the US economy - what they do with that power over the next 2 or 3 years will be interesting to watch.

While it's no longer mandatory for the foreign dreamers to go into joint ventures with state-owned enterprises in China, in the long run the main winner in any interactions with the Chinese economy is CHINA. Dazzled by the pipe dream of selling to a captive market of 1 BILLION Chinese citizens, American companies are willing to allow the Chinese to take liberties with their a$$es, including blatant intellectual property theft. Typical story: American company comes over. "Partners" with the Chinese (actually, the Americans put up most of the $$$). Endures a few lean years while the Chinese copy/borrow/steal every trade secret the Americans possess. Shuts down Chinese operations due to lack of profitability (often because the Chinese are by then using American techniques + cheap labor to undercut the Americans). It's a sad, sad refrain and the few exceptions don't disprove the rule.

>>>And having the ancient PalmOS duct taped to NetFrontLinux is not suddenly going to make this Frankestein-style OS very appealing.

I'm not sure how much simpler I can make this statement, but I'll try: Access doesn't care about PalmOS. That's not why they bought PalmSource. Mike Kelley tried to convince me otherwise. The entire management of PSRC and Access behaved otherwise. But it was clear to me when Access announced, and it should be obvious to everyone now.

The way Access is treating PalmOS like an afterthought suggests either they are insane or yes, PalmOS is of minimal importance to them. It's possible that of all the companies that had bid for PalmSource, Access valued PalmOS the LEAST. A company that valued PalmOS would not end development of that OS within a few months of purchasing the OS. "Due diligence"? Was Access suckered or was PalmOS never the primary target in this takeout? That's the $320 MILLION question. In any event, for those of us who value PalmOS, the point is moot: PalmOS is now comatose, on NetFrontLinux life support and has no chance of returning to life unless (as I alluded to at the time of the PalmSource sale) Access is holding PalmOS hostage + may be willing to sell the rights to Garnet and all the Cobalt + PalmLinux code to Palm for a price (say, $150 MILLION). Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm...

NetFrontLinux/DogFoodOS looks like a shaky kludge that Access will have little chance of delivering on time. China MobileSoft's current OS products may be shipping, but are they anything special in + of themselves? No. Is using CMS as an "in" to the Chinese market going to work? Probably not. China likes "free" more than any other feature, and Chinese carriers + cellphone manufacturers will simply reverse engineer + clone any Linux-based phone OS, thereby effectively shuting Access out of the loop once Access has done all of the hard work. (Ask Palm about piracy problems in Asia...)

>>>Windows Mobile has the momentum and the numbers and will have a several year head start on NetFrontLinux by the time the latter OS is ready (assuming, of course it's EVER ready).

Not in China, where mLinux is already shipping.

So? Somewhere in China, someone's probably already produced µLinux - an exact copy of mLinux - and is giving it away for free.

To you and me the difference between mLinux, PalmLinux, and ALP matters. To Haier, et al, it doesn't. All that matters is that they get to keep selling smartphones with ever expanding feature sets that don't run M$ operating systems.

If that was true, there would be little reason to bother developing NetFrontLinux. And if mLinux is not exactly the second coming of Amiga then the sale price of PalmSource becomes suspect.

As long as you keep trying to see the Access play as somehow relating to PalmOS, and not to linux-smartphone-in-Asia, you're not going to see either what they wanted or why they stand a good chance of success.

Again, given how many Linux-based OSes may be out soon and how little IP is valued in countries like China, if Access looked at the Big Picture it would be obvious the rainbow doesn't end in China.

*************************************************************************

- An interesting summary article on the Chinese economy:

http://www.inc.com/magazine/20050301/china.html

- A nice summary of what to do to TRY and succeed in doing business in China. Too bad Palm didn't know these common sense "rules" a few years ago BEFORE they embarassed themselves in China:

http://www.buyusa.gov/china/en/doingbizinchina.html

TVoR

------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

IMO, the later.

You're still not getting the point about China, though. Here are three thoughts to help you out:

1) China announced today that it has 400 million mobile phone subscribers. (http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2006-02/23/content_4218207.htm)

2) CMS is already a Chinese company. Nothing you're pointing out about Western companies doing business in China applies. And it is doing very well in China.

3) China is only one of the major consumers of telephony in Asia, although it is the fastest growing.

As far as "free", you don't get how the telecom business in China works. While there are knock off companies, they don't give their wares away, either.

And no, Access isn't holding PalmOS hostage. Palm, as you'll recall, has license rights already, for a lot less than $150M.

Access paid more for PSRC than they meant to. There's a suit (whatever happened to that?) that lays out the story of last minute bidding. But they knew what they wanted and what they wanted it for, and it wasn't PoS, as the ALP announcement makes abundantly clear.

May You Live in Interesting Times

IMO, the later.

You may be right.

You're still not getting the point about China, though. Here are three thoughts to help you out:

No, Marty. I don't think YOU are getting the point about China.

1) China announced today that it has 400 million mobile phone subscribers. (http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2006-02/23/content_4218207.htm)

And how many computer users are there in China? And how are Microsoft's SALES of Windows XP and Windows desktop apps going? Foreign firms are always drooling over the tantalizing SIZE of the Chinese market, but the harsh reality of the inaccessibility + inequality of that market are usually only realized by the time it's too late.

2) CMS is already a Chinese company. Nothing you're pointing out about Western companies doing business in China applies. And it is doing very well in China.

No, China MobileSoft is a China-based subsidiary of a JAPANESE company. Do you think the Chinese like Japanese companies, Marty? Do you really?

3) China is only one of the major consumers of telephony in Asia, although it is the fastest growing.

And phone OSes can be copied and commoditized ("legally" or illegally) in other parts of Asia just as easily as they can be in China. Greed and piracy are international.

As far as "free", you don't get how the telecom business in China works. While there are knock off companies, they don't give their wares away, either.

The pirates might not give their wares away for free, but they can drastically undercut the companies that actually had to spend R + D $$$ coming up with the original software. Access offers China Telecom a phone license fee of $5/unit. "Excess China Corp" offers a similar OS for $1/unit (easy to do since no money was spent on R + D). Who's China Telecom gonna pick? The Japanese Capitalst Pigs who are now the China MobileSoft masters, or Excess China Corp - who just happen to be owned by a friend of China Telecom's chairman? Hard decision, isn't it? I'm amazed that you thing the China MobileSoft relationships will continue on, business as usual now that they are owned by the Japanese.

And no, Access isn't holding PalmOS hostage. Palm, as you'll recall, has license rights already, for a lot less than $150M.

Palm has the rights to a DEAD platform. If they plan on just playing out the PalmOS string, releasing more devices powered by the now-overwhelmed, hacked-up PalmOS 5, their current contract covers them well. Palm has PalmOS locked up well past the point that it's obsolete (which it arguably already is). But if Palm was hoping on extending PalmOS to be capable enough to power the next generation of mobile devices, Access has dashed those hopes with its pathetic New Plan for NetFrontLinux. Since Palm lacks the ability to create a competitive next-generation OS on its own, that would mean Palm will end up turning to Windows Mobile - by default. And since Palm lackes the design/engineering skills to differentiate itself from the other Windows Mobile hordes + can't hope to compete on price, it has no hope of sustaining profitability. What a dilemma. A self-induced dilemma, all stemming from the shell game Palm played when they spun PalmSource off to make a quick buck.

Access paid more for PSRC than they meant to. There's a suit (whatever happened to that?) that lays out the story of last minute bidding. But they knew what they wanted and what they wanted it for, and it wasn't PoS, as the ALP announcement makes abundantly clear.

Access paid a ridiculous fee for PalmSource and I've gone on record as predicting that this gamble will ultimately bankrupt the company. If the presented plans for the architecture of NetFrontLinux are to be believed (and one assumes that Access truly did "due diligence" and understood how little Cobalt/PalmLinux offered a company looking for an OS solution NOW), then yes, Chinana MobileSoft is the key. (Because the Montpellier, France subsidiary sure as he11 wasn't the key!)

These are Interesting Times. Like Lennon said: Strange Days Indeed.

TVoR

------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

PalmSource would have been wise to settle any claims Motorola had out of court. What's $15 MILLION when you're flush with cash like Access is? Not.

I still expect that Access will (either by design or out of desperation) sell off the rights to Cobalt and PalmLinux code within a year or two*.

[*Another BOLD prediction from TVoR™]

Copyright 2006.
TVoR, Inc

------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

Do you think the Chinese like Japanese companies, Marty? Do you really?

CMS is in Nanjing, and yes, I know what that means in china/japan relations. But you answered your own question. Besides CMS, Access gets an American front company to do business for it in places where Japan is not so well loved, and an EU subsidiary.

Access offers China Telecom a phone license fee of $5/unit. "Excess China Corp" offers a similar OS for $1/unit (easy to do since no money was spent on R + D). Who's China Telecom gonna pick?

Like I said, you're not getting it. CMS doesn't do business directly with China Telecom. It does business with handset makers. And despite the existance of "Excess China Corp", the makers have already answered your question: they're buying from CMS already.

Your wrong about Access going bankrupt over the PSRC buy. The math doesn't work out to make that likely. At worst, they do what NTT did with its huge purchase of Verio: write it off as a bad decision.

Japanese companies aren't bounded by the sort of short-term quarter-to-quarter definition of 'success' that US companies live with and the Japanese government isn't big on allowing its tech companies to fail.

Besides, Access is going to deliver ALP and it's going to be successful in the largest, fastest growing, phone market in the world.

I recommend that Ryan find some buddies who can read Russian and Japanese, but especially Chinese.

May You Live in Interesting Times

No, Marty. China MobileSoft is now a Japanese company. And it will be exploited appropriately.

>>>Do you think the Chinese like Japanese companies, Marty? Do you really?

CMS is in Nanjing, and yes, I know what that means in china/japan relations. But you answered your own question. Besides CMS, Access gets an American front company to do business for it in places where Japan is not so well loved, and an EU subsidiary.

That $320 MILLION didn't buy Access a he11 of a lot. PalmSource's Sunnyvale operations will be severely downsized soon enough.

>>>Access offers China Telecom a phone license fee of $5/unit. "Excess China Corp" offers a similar OS for $1/unit (easy to do since no money was spent on R + D). Who's China Telecom gonna pick?

Like I said, you're not getting it. CMS doesn't do business directly with China Telecom. It does business with handset makers. And despite the existance of "Excess China Corp", the makers have already answered your question: they're buying from CMS already.

Actually, "China Telecom" was meant to be my apocryphal generic Chinese handset maker. I just Googled the name and found out that it's "the leading provider of wireline telecommunications services in China, providing voice, data, image, multimedia and telecommunications and information services in 20 municipalities, provinces and autonomous regions in China with a subscriber base exceeding 200 million." Ooops!

First of all, let's not overstate how well China MobileSoft are currently doing. It's my understanding that they've just started shipping any decent real product in the past year. And it's not like they have the market locked up right now. Why don't you post some figures on how many OS licenses China MobileSoft has sold in the past year, Marty? Now that they finally have a real OS shipping, how long before a REAL Chinese CopyCat clones the work of those foreign infidels (China MobileSoft) and undercuts the price? Then what will happen to Access' fledgeling Chinese Dream? Up in smoke, just like all the other FOREIGN companies that Drooled, Came, Saw, Invested, Built, and were Sodomized.

Care to make a wager, Marty? $100 donation to the charity of the winner's choice. I say Access will be bankrupt (or bought out) within 2 years. Secondary bet (for $10): I say Access will end up selling off the rights ("ownership") to one or more of Cobalt/PalmLinux/PalmOS 5 within 18 months.

You're wrong about Access going bankrupt over the PSRC buy. The math doesn't work out to make that likely. At worst, they do what NTT did with its huge purchase of Verio: write it off as a bad decision.

We'll see soon enough which one of us was right. Remember: Access was not exactly a huge company to begin with. Buying PalmSource was quite a stretch for them, even with DoCoMo's big pockets lurking in the background. I could see DoCoMo stepping in and buying a larger chunk of Access (like Sony did with PalmSource) when things start to get desperate. If the China MobileSoft gamble fails, where does that leave Access? Their NetFront browser is ALREADY facing competition from the likes of Opera, and as mobile hardware becomes more powerful, it will be much easier for less elegant browsers to compete with NetFront. Eventually, an Open Source mobile version of a browser like FireFox will destroy Access' previous business model of being the provider of browsers for mobile devices. It's just a matter of when - not "if" - this will happen.

Japanese companies aren't bounded by the sort of short-term quarter-to-quarter definition of 'success' that US companies live with and the Japanese government isn't big on allowing its tech companies to fail.

Actually, this traditional stereotype of how Japanese businesses think has become a lot more "Americanized" in the past 5 years. Ask anyone who's familiar with Japan. The failures of major banks + businesses have injected a little bit of America's desire for instant gratification into Japan's corporate culture.

Besides, Access is going to deliver ALP and it's going to be successful in the largest, fastest growing, phone market in the world.

We shall soon see about that.

I recommend that Ryan find some buddies who can read Russian and Japanese, but especially Chinese.

Maybe he should ask Mr. Schlesinger. [Snort]

TVoR

------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

Surur

They said I only argued for the sake of arguing, but after an hour I convinced them they were wrong...

Things are NOT looking good for PalmOS these days...

TVoR

------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

I say Access will end up selling off the rights ("ownership") to one or more of Cobalt/PalmLinux/PalmOS 5 within 18 months.

Particularly right after the disclosure of how the bidding unfolded, I wondered if this wasn't how it would play out in the end by design. We didn't know what was being said between Palm and Access. But based on what Access has disclosed about their ALPOS, it seems they aren't "planning" on that at the moment. Not that it can't or won't happen, just that it doesn't appear to be the plan.

18 months seems pretty soon. ALP is supposed to be "available" at the end of 2006. That date needs only slip a little and the availability is pushed to a year from now. Then potential hardware manufacturers need some time to get their products to market. Seems that 18 month date will be hit just about the time the earliest unit gets into hands. Not much time for Access to evaluate the value of keeping POS in house or selling it off.

Either way this all shakes out, I've got my old T2, my new TX and a soon-to-arrive Zodiac. I think I'll be able to hold out until some more of the dust settles.

It might not be the "mythical color HandEra", but I'm liking my TX anyway.

It already happened. And it played out the way I described, not the way you predicted.

So, we know that you don't know who is who in China telecommunications ("I googled China Telecom...") or what's going on WRT copy cat software in China. Betcha didn't know that the Chinese government is starting to crack down on copy cats because it's costing the PRC money, either.

As far as your bet offer, I notice that you're hedging. Now we've gone from bankrupt to bankrupt or bought. I'll take the $100 bet on bankrupt only, provided we limit the charities to registered US non-profits. You can make the check out to Habitat for Humanity and date it 25 Feb 08.

So, here's the bet: I bet that Access will not go bankrupt prior to 24 Feb 08. If I'm right, you send $100 to Habitat for Humanity on 25 Feb 08. If I'm wrong, I send $100 to the registered US non-profit of your choice on 2 Feb 08. You in?

May You Live in Interesting Times

http://stonemirror.wordpress.com/tag/japan-2005/

"I had a nice chat, of sorts, anyway, with Kobayashi-san and Suzuki-san. Even with my limited Japanese and their limited English, we managed just fine."

"The lady running the sobaya was extremely nice, and seemed very taken with my halting attempts to converse in Japanese. “Iie, jozû desu!”—”No, you’re quite skilful!”—she would say when I commented on how poor my Japanese was.

My friend told me (if she’s to be believed, and I think she is) that my accent is actually surprisingly excellent for a gaijin. Certainly, I received this reaction of delighted astonishment from many people when I would do something like say “Dô itashima****e” in response to someone’s “Dômo arigatô gozaimasu”, as though I had done some sort of trick that they’d have otherwise thought impossible. When we left, the soba lady said goodbye to me by saying, “Ki-o tsukete,” “Take care of your spirit,” a lovely parting saying that you don’t hear all that often.

I was right: I did get a lot of mileage out of “Nihongo-o hetaku hanasemasu.”"

"I’ve got my conversational skills down as far as dealing with the konbini (convenience store, of which there are a bazillion) goes. “Irrashaimase!” “Ohayo! Kore-wa, kudasai.” “Go-hyaku sanjuu go en, onegai shimasu…” “Hai, domo.” “Arigato gozaimasu!” “Iie.”"

"I was showing off my knowedge of kanji, pointing at random signs and saying, “That one means ’spring’! That one means ‘meadow’! That one means ‘name’!”"

**************************************************************************

Baka American gaijin wannabe Japanophiles like you are sneered at by the Japanese, Bubba. They're not laughing with you, they're laughing at you. You're just don't realize it yet when they're making fun of you. While your awkward, halting attempts at speaking Japanese are touching in their naïve, child-like innocence, eventually even you will realize how little you understand. It's amusing to hear you keep spewing the little Japanese catchphrases you've cribbed from your well-worn copy of Japanese For Dummies. Ever see a bear dance in a circus? Elegant, isn't it? No matter how much you try and no matter how much Japanes merchandise you surround yourself with, you will ALWAYS be a crass outsider to the Japanese. Don't delude yourself otherwise, Bubba.

Ki o tsukete

TVoR

------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

It already happened. And it played out the way I described, not the way you predicted.

Ummmm... Marty, give it time. China MobileSoft was not taken over by Access too long ago.

So, we know that you don't know who is who in China telecommunications ("I googled China Telecom...")

Ummmm... Marty, I already said I did not know China Telecom was a real company. Thanks for re-stating that, though.

or what's going on WRT copy cat software in China. Betcha didn't know that the Chinese government is starting to crack down on copy cats because it's costing the PRC money, either.

Software theft continues unchecked in China. And China will continue to turn a blind eye to the theft of programs and intellectual property of foreign companies until foreign nations exert pressure on China through sanctions to comply with copyright laws. For years, victimized American software companies like Microsoft have tried to get China to play nice, but China only does what's in China's best interests. And the Chinese feel it's in their best interests to pirate American software to the tune of BILLIONS of $$$ per year rather than sending that money back to the rightful American copyright owners.

The United States should have gotten tough with China a LONG time ago. It's time we start boycotting products that are made in China and start supporting companies that cotinue to manufacture their goods in the USA.

As far as your bet offer, I notice that you're hedging. Now we've gone from bankrupt to bankrupt or bought. I'll take the $100 bet on bankrupt only, provided we limit the charities to registered US non-profits. You can make the check out to Habitat for Humanity and date it 25 Feb 08.

Not hedging - just aware that (like PalmSource + unlike Be) Access has assets that are valuable enough that they would likely attract a sale before they went bankrupt.

So the offer stands, but I'll modify it to read "Bankrupt or bought after financial losses."

So, here's the bet: I bet that Access will not go bankrupt prior to 24 Feb 08. If I'm right, you send $100 to Habitat for Humanity on 25 Feb 08. If I'm wrong, I send $100 to the registered US non-profit of your choice on 25 Feb 08. You in?

I say Access will be bankrupt (or bought out after financial losses) within 2 years. Secondary bet (for $10): I say Access will end up selling off the rights ("ownership") to one or more of Cobalt/PalmLinux/PalmOS 5 within 18 months.

When you're proven wrong, you'll send the money to the NOW Legal Defense and Education Fund on February 25, 2008. I thank you in advance for your kind donation.

http://tinyurl.com/ksyye

TVoR

------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

The professional bookmakers say this is a sucker bet: http://tinyurl.com/f3cao. See if you can get odds.

Most people would rather have Max Heapspace rather than Max Headroom...

In the name of Buddy Christ, I REBUKE thee!

Are you REALLY in Mountain View, Marty? Hilarious.

TVoR

------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

The web is an amazing place. I got on Google and asked for

== "street names in mountain view, ca"

and, of course, got a gajillion hits. One, however, had THIS:

-- http://www.ci.mtnview.ca.us/citydepts/pw/swp/curbside_street_index_CD.htm

Interesting result!

Lol!

which unfortunately doesn't have an "angle" view (too bad!) for this location (which is a way-cool feature if the location does have one).

Wonder if a further search would give...you know...something MORE interesting! White Pages anyone?

Gotta luv The 'Net!

[the other day I sent an email off to someone to mildly complain about something and wanted to include a VERY particular sound file - so I googled "the horror the horror wav" and actually got EXACTLY the hit on Marlon Brando in Apocalypse Now saying JUST and ONLY that as I wanted! Wheeeee!]

The Voyeur of Reason

------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

That's not Marty's real address, Ryan. I drove over to meet Marty for a cup of tea but they said no one named Marty Fouts was ever at that address. Pity.

;-O

TVoR

------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

I think a lot of people here would be amused if they knew who Skippy really is and why it knows so little about the industry it keeps writing about. I know I was amused when I found out.

Whadya say, Skippy? You got any balls? 'fess up to who you are and put us all on an even playing field. Let's all have a look at that "web column" you write there in your parents' basement.

Of course, Skippy won't. Skippy, in addition to being a r. crumb loser, is a monumental coward.

May You Live in Interesting Times

Wow, Marty. That was harsh.

It deserves bannation,

"It"??? Gee Marty, I think you need to take a deep breath there. YOU don't decide who gets banned around here.

or you need to admit that you don't care about whether people are respectful of each other or not.

Ryan doesn't "NEED" to do anything. You "NEED" to stop making such absurd demands. Until this becomes Martyinfocenter, ranting the way you are now is WAY out of line. You "NEED" to apologize to Ryan and all of the readers of Palminfocenter for your latest rabid screed.

I don't care which, but pick one and do it.

Or else what? Are you gonna beat Ryan up if he doesn't do what you want him to do, tough guy? If you want to continue this conversation offline I'd be more than willing to deliver the biotchslapping in person. I go down to Mountainview periodically, so email me when you want to receive some TVoR lovin'.

I think a lot of people here would be amused if they knew who Skippy really is and why it knows so little about the industry it keeps writing about. I know I was amused when I found out.

So Dianne Hackborne finally figured it out and told you? Took her long enough. I'm actually surprised she said anything to you. I guess all's fair in love and war...

Whadya say, Skippy? You got any balls?

Ummmm... actually no, I don't. Of course I'm not supposed to. What's YOUR excuse for your tragic lack of cojones, Marty? When I ripped you a new one did the rapier also castrate you? Did you even HAVE any cojones to begin with?

'fess up to who you are and put us all on an even playing field.

Wait a minute. Did Ms. Hackborne tell you or not? Sounds like she didn't after all. Nice try, Marty.

Let's all have a look at that "web column" you write there in your parents' basement.

You want me to reveal who I write for? But if I do that, it would reveal my secret identity. Isn't it better to keep the mystery, Marty? Tittilation serves a function. Just ask Dianne!

Of course, Skippy won't. Skippy, in addition to being a r. crumb loser, is a monumental coward.

Tough words from a feeble computer geek. You really hurt me there, Marty. Ow. You. Really. Hurt. Me.

Serves me right for trying to be nice to you...

Take care, little buddy.

TVoR

------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

More insults, more braggadoccio from behind the mask, but in reality, nothing but cowardice.

Go ahead, Skip, post your email address here. I'll be happy to arrange a meeting with you. Better yet, post your own address. Coward.

Of course you won't. You don't have the guts. Never have had. Never will. P1ss your pants every time you even think about the possibility that someone might figure out who you are.

Maybe I'll drop by and say hello, next time I'm down your way. But I'll leave it to you to drum up enough courage to admit it in public.

Oh wait, I forgot. You don't have any courage.

Guess you'll be Skippy forever.

May You Live in Interesting Times

More insults, more braggadoccio from behind the mask, but in reality, nothing but cowardice.

The irony is KILLING me!

Go ahead, Skip, post your email address here. I'll be happy to arrange a meeting with you. Better yet, post your own address. Coward.

Why have you suddenly got so sensitive, Marty? Where's the trademark witty Martyspeak we all know and love?

Of course you won't. You don't have the guts. Never have had. Never will. P1ss your pants every time you even think about the possibility that someone might figure out who you are.

Oh dear.

Maybe I'll drop by and say hello, next time I'm down your way. But I'll leave it to you to drum up enough courage to admit it in public.

"Up" my way, Marty. Up. San Francisco is NORTH of Mountainview. Should I give you driving directions from your place to mine? It should take you aroung 45 minutes to get here.

Oh wait, I forgot. You don't have any courage.

Guess you'll be Skippy forever.

Wow. You. Really. Hurt. Me. Marty.

Let it go, Marty. Let it go. Take care.

TVoR

------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

But that's not where I'd bother to visit you.

Much more fun to come down your way.

Coward.

May You Live in Interesting Times

I probably passed you. It's a small world afterall. I'm surprised your house is so... modest, Marty. And the mall a block from your place must bring a lot of headaches for you and your neighbors.

But that's not where I'd bother to visit you.

Much more fun to come down your way.

You poor little sap. You have NO idea who I am or where I live. But by all means keep looking in the wrong direction. (San Jose, perhaps?) You're getting colder if the search for TVoR takes you that way.

Coward.

Oh dear. Looks like Mr. CrankyPants needs to chill out.

Your inability to let things go is your own undoing, Marty. Keep it up.

TVoR

------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

There's no mall a block from my house. In this, as in so many things, you are, as usual, very wrong.

You're the lowest form of internet life, Skip, the anonymous coward. And no, I'm not calling you names. I'm describing what you are.

Post your own address, or, as you are so fond of saying, S.T.F.U

You won't, of course. If you did, people would find out about how pathetic you really are, living in your parents' basement and working that minimum wage job. They'd discover how many of your claims are just the sad lies of another in an endless parade of R Crumb losers.

But more than that, you don't have the guts to put your own name on your own words. Never had, never will.

And all because you'd lose that minimum wage job of yours if your employer knew how you behaved on the web.

That's right, Skippy. I know who you are, where you live, where you work, how little you make and the real reason you're afraid to admit in public who you are.

and no, Skippy, I'm not cranky, and I have no problem at all letting things go. I've just decided its time someone call you on your cowardice.

So, as we say where I came from, put up or shut up.

Coward.

May You Live in Interesting Times

Since "Poor clueless Skippy" just p0Wn3d your sorry a$$ and you have no idea who "Poor clueless Skippy" is, it appears you must be several notches BELOW "clueless" on the Clue Scale. "Brainless", perhaps?

There's no mall a block from my house. In this, as in so many things, you are, as usual, very wrong.

Then why are you suddenly freaking out here, Marty? You should have just let it go. I regret that hengeem perhaps took things a little too far with the clues I left (if you were in The City he could have posted a satellite photo of your house!), but Ryan quickly (and wisely) deleted the specific references. Feel free to deny everything as much as you want, little Buddy. I won't contradict you if it makes you feel better.

You're the lowest form of internet life, Skip, the anonymous coward. And no, I'm not calling you names. I'm describing what you are.

No, YOU'RE the lowest form of internet life, Marty: the pompous, smarta$$ blowhard. Over the past few months you have been receiving Lesson 1: You Are Not As Smart As You Think You Are. Unfortunately, you have yet to learn your lesson, Marty. Do you need remedial lessons? Let me know and I'll find a tutor for you. (Jeff "Puff Daddy" Kirvin might be available.)

Post your own address, or, as you are so fond of saying, S.T.F.U.

Why should I do that? As my conversations here with you have shown me, there are many sick, deranged, obsessive a-holes on the Internet. Just ask your former boss at PalmSource, David Schlesinger about the agony of being stalked relentlessly over the Internet for a decade by Lunktard. (I don't even WANT to know what Schlesinger did to pi$$ this guy off so much that he's dedicated the past decade to making Schlesinger's life a living HE11.)

Generally I would say it's not a good idea to post things on the Internet non-anonymously that may come back to embarass you when you GROW UP. People will just look at that sad train wreck known as Your Life, chuckle, and shake their heads while saying Allah akbar!, grateful that they are not YOU.

http://www.epinions.com/user-stonemirror
http://stonemirror.wordpress.com/
http://www.43things.com/person/stonemirror
http://www.stonemirror.net/
http://www.shugendo.org/marsupial/
http://www.shugendo.org/marsupial/Pages/pic_slurs.htm

You won't, of course. If you did, people would find out about how pathetic you really are, living in your parents' basement and working that minimum wage job. They'd discover how many of your claims are just the sad lies of another in an endless parade of R Crumb losers.

If you're going to lie about someone, at least make it plausible, Marty. Otherwise the only person your lie discredits is YOU. Do you really think ANYONE is going to believe anything you wrote above? Your recent rants have a panic-stricken quality about them, showing a side of you hitherto unseen. You're SO multifaceted, Marty. I think I LIKE Panicky Marty more than Smarmy Marty. I hope we see more of Panicky Marty in the future. Is there anthing I can do to encourage him to come out more in the future? I can't wait to see Panicky Marty finally prance OUT of the closet for good.

But more than that, you don't have the guts to put your own name on your own words. Never had, never will.

My words stand on their own merit, thankyouverymuch. Sould the musings of TVoR carry more or lees weight if you knew who I am? It should not matter.

Am I a 41 year old software company director living in Seacliff?
Am I a 16 year old child living in my parents' basement in Outer Richmond?
Am I a 36 year old graphic designer living in the Castro?
Am I a 27 year old receptionist living in the Mission?
Am I a 54 year old unemployed former manager at Palm living in Inner Sunset?
Am I a 63 year old investor living in Pacific Heights?

Who cares? If you feel what I have to say at Palminfocenter has value, read it and respond. If you feel my words are pure dreck, simply skip over my posts AND MOVE ON, MARTY. MOVE ON.

Dianne Hackborn is the ONLY person here who (might) know who I am, since my name is (probably) still in her cellphone. And If I know Dianne, she would NEVER tell you who I am even if you begged. But keep trying, Marty. We're all rooting for you, Buddy.

And all because you'd lose that minimum wage job of yours if your employer knew how you behaved on the web.

What exactly is that "minimum wage job of [mine]", Marty? I think somehow I'm not getting my checks! And do you feel that someone should be ashamed for earning minimum wage? I think ANYONE who works for minimum wage should be commended for working for a living when so many don't even try. The people working for minimum wage have pride and a quiet dignity that a dumba$$ codemonkey like you can never hope to achieve. And what is it about how I "behaved on the web" that would cause my "employer" to fire me from my "minimum wage job" if they saw that behaviour? Was it when I exposed you to be a pompous fraud working for PalmSource? Or was it when I destroyed poor David S. when he tried to go toe to toe with me? Or was it when I exposed the Palm Conspiracy? Inquiring minds want to know.

That's right, Skippy. I know who you are, where you live, where you work, how little you make and the real reason you're afraid to admit in public who you are.

OK, Marty. I admit it - you got me. I'm a 16 year old kid living in my parents' basement in Santa Cruz and I work for minimum wage at the Boardwalk selling hotdogs on the weekend. How did you figure it out? You're just TOO clever for me, Marty. And I would have gotten away with it too if it wasn't for those meddling kids and their blasted dog...

and no, Skippy, I'm not cranky, and I have no problem at all letting things go.

That's not how it appears to everone reading your posts, Marty.

I've just decided its time someone call you on your cowardice.

Sound's like there's gonna be a showdown at high noon... One of us won't be walking away from this alive, Marty. And his initials are M.F. (Mo Fo).

So, as we say where I came from, put up or shut up.

I've put plenty up. And now you're lying face down on the mat bleeding from several (all?) orifices. You got p0Wn3d, Marty. Admit it, cry a little, and MOVE ON.

Coward.

Bwahahahaha!

Oh, the humanity!!!

Take care,

TVoR
(Marty Fouts' OWNER)

**************************************************************************

I'm done with this nonsense. The referee should have stopped this before Marty suffered further brain damage. C'est la vie...


------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comments/7864/#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comments/8060/#111823

Anyway, the comment displaying system is going to be much improved soon so stay tuned.

So can we please take a break here, call a truce and go back to talking about ALP.

-Ryan

One of the defining characteristics of adult development is an internal locus of control. But since that is apparently not forthcoming, I look forward to Ryan's efforts to bring some control to bear.

It might not be the "mythical color HandEra", but I'm liking my TX anyway.

As things stand now, there's surely pretty minimal incentive for any folks who could actually answer questions or clarify misapprehensions to participate at all. Being subjected to inane personal abuse and having one's personal life invaded by noisy morons isn't really all that much of a draw.

One doesn't call truces with anonymous cowards like Skippy, Ryan.

The web has become the cesspool it is because people like you run sites like this where behavior like that is allowed.

Besides, every time you smack Skippy into submission, it simply chills out for a few days until the next time it tries something else equally disgusting.

May You Live in Interesting Times

My words stand on their own merit, thankyouverymuch.

That's typicall skippy bullpucky.

If your words were arguments about the topic at hand, that would be true, and anonymity reasonable.

But those aren't the words we're discussing here, Skippy. We're discussing your unreasonable intrusion into the personal lifes of those you argue with.

A coward stands behinds a mask and hurls insults of the sort you do. You wouldn't have the guts to behave that way if you knew that you could be responded to in kind, or held accountable for your behavior.

As I said, correctly, your employer would fire you if they knew what sort of stuff you are posting from their computers on their time.

You are the lowest form of life on the internet, Skippy.

May You Live in Interesting Times

That's not enough Ryan. You'll just end up doing what you always do, which is to let Skippy become more and more abusive until finally even you think he's over the top.

By then, you've already done the damage to your site.

Left's right, you know. You are letting Skippy drive away precisely the people you want posting on your site.

May You Live in Interesting Times

and when will that be?

You can't solve a social problem with technology Ryan. Skippy's your mess. You created it by putting up with it for so long, and you're not going to clean it up with a new "system".

May You Live in Interesting Times

Ryan, (said with the best southern drawl I can muster) honestly sheriff, if you don't protect the decent folk in your town, they'll just move on to other parts. (And some of those who have moved on just get "lynched" in abstentia.)

Why did I ask you not to put my full name on the reviews I wrote? I concluded that I couldn't trust some of the members on this site from hitting below the belt, and I couldn't trust you to provide any protection from that. (Fortunately up to this point, no one has found me to be a big enough fish to fry to go looking for personal information and plaster it all over these pages.) I do like PIC, so I'm glad you've decided to do something about it. Here's hoping it will be effective.

It might not be the "mythical color HandEra", but I'm liking my TX anyway.

Do you guys remember what this place was like back when we still had anonymous comments? I think this transition will be as drastic as the improvement of when we required registration.

You're free to provide all the SPIN-free, B.S.-free info you want. Unfortunately, history has shown us that Palm/PalmSource employees are more interested in trying to cover up for their mistakes than they are answering questions HONESTLY.

One doesn't call truces with anonymous cowards like Skippy, Ryan.

Oh dear. Looks like you'll just never learn, Marty. Someday I hope you'll learn to back down before end up regretting it.

The web has become the cesspool it is because people like you run sites like this where behavior like that is allowed.

I'm amazed at the number of Palm Apologists that trash talk Palminfocenter yet still feel compelled to keep hanging around here stirring up the hornets nest. Then they go crying to their mommies when the hornets nest fall on them and they get stung. Go figure. Dumba$$es like you and Jeff Kirvin won't get any sympathy for your tragic plight, Marty. Bashing Ryan and making ridiculous demands is the familiar modus operandi of the sleazy Apologists that are attempting to bully Palminfocenter into falling in line with the other useless, treacle-soaked Palm sites. Your recent barrage of statements only shows how little class you have.

Besides, every time you smack Skippy into submission, it simply chills out for a few days until the next time it tries something else equally disgusting.

Tough talk from a little wuss, Marty. Try to be a bit more civil in your posts here in the future.

Take care,

TVoR

------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comments/7864/#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comments/8060/#111823

You are the lowest form of life on the internet, Skippy.

What "unreasonable intrusion into the personal lifes" are you talking about, Marty. That wasn't REALLY your home address that hengeem posted here, was it? You seemed to be saying that's not your address, so what on earth are you freaking out about? What did some bad person do to you that justifies your latest screed? Was it something you brought upon yourself?

By the way, Marty: since I am "[my] employer" somehow I doubt I'll be firing myself. Ooops! Can you please bring back "Smarmy Marty"? "Panicky Marty" is a bit of a dullard...

Right. "improve". "in place".

and when will that be?

You can't solve a social problem with technology Ryan. Skippy's your mess. You created it by putting up with it for so long, and you're not going to clean it up with a new "system".

Do you want the precise minute when the changes will occur, Marty? And if they're not to your liking, what are you going to do? Threaten to beat Ryan up? You are truly disgusting, Marty.

I have put a lot of thought into this lately. I am developing a few new methods for moderation here. I think everyone here will be happy with it and you won't have to wait too long.

Do you guys remember what this place was like back when we still had anonymous comments? I think this transition will be as drastic as the improvement of when we required registration.

I just hope you don't let the demands of 3 or 4 Palm Apologist bullies scare you into doing something that wrecks the site, Ryan. Taking away anonymous posting was a move that many of us feel took much of the fun and energy from Palminfocenter. We've already lost PalmStation and PDA Buzz. Brighthand and 1src are dead. And we've seen how heavyhanded moderation made a mess of Treocentral. If that's the way you want to take Palminfocenter, I wish you luck. Kowtowing to Palm will probably bring in some big advertising $$$, but at what cost?

I will move over to the sidelines and watch to see what happens. (Of course, silencing TVoR is PRECISELY what the Palm Apologists are hoping to accomplish with their repeated attacks on me...)

TVoR

------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comments/7864/#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comments/8060/#111823

I find it highly ironic that you screech so loudly about personal attacks and disagreements, and yet you feel free to open fire on Ryan and the way he runs his site over so trivial a perceived offense as not banning TVOR. I strongly advise that if you don't like it, you walk up to Ryan and ask for your money back. Or better yet, leave. Go found your own site where you can be as self-important as you want.

As far as I can see, Penguin, you haven't contributed nearly enough to this site to justify getting special protection against the big bad TVOR. While it would be nice if TVOR would rein it in once in awhile, I must note that it takes two to argue, and he wouldn't have anything to go on if you didn't feel the need to always try for the last word. So don't blame Ryan for failing to protect you from yourself.

I shudder to think.

Abusers of anonymity (and pseudonymity) do nothing but stifle discussion through abuse and attempted intimidation. Of course, pointing at someone's personal web site isn't terribly intimidating when they're the one who put it up there in the first place, as Dianne's noted elsewhere—if we felt we had things to hide, we'd probably be hiding 'em.

But it's telling that we hear the advice that one shouldn't "post things on the Internet non-anonymously that may come back to embarass you" from those who go to great lengths to preserve their own lack of accountability (since this sort of abuse really has nothing to do with anonymity). How more direct a statement of a desire to simply shut people down (at least if they're "non-anonymous", i.e. attackable) could there be?

Happily, I have nothing to hide or be embarassed by. But I wonder: We've already seen pictures of my family made fodder for "discussion" here. Where does it stop?

There's no reason to believe that those who think prying into areas of people's lives which have nothing whatsoever to do with Palm, PalmSource, Palm OS or anything or the sort would show any restraint at all in their attempts to halt discussion that wasn't going their way. Indeed, we've seen exactly the contrary.

Those who conflate accountability with censorship really want to have only one opinion expressed: their own. Anyone who disagrees is fair game for "embarassment" and abuse of all sorts, ranging from the wildly off-topic to the outright intrusive.

Only the government can censor. If someone doesn't like the demands a given printing press places on them, let 'em use a different one more to their liking.

I agree that that sort of thing is completely unacceptable. Perhaps there should be a tiny link at the bottom of every post to report the posting of personally identifying information (without consent).

However, I cannot agree that outright banning TVoR would make this site a better read. Maybe a moderation system *will* be a good idea. As long as I can leave it set to completely unfiltered, I'm happy.

(To play devil's advocate, I might also point out that moderation can occasionally drive people away when the community is not large enough to get a diverse range of modders, because the opinions will slant based on personal politics and not the content.)

Tim Carroll
Your friendly customer service robot
(and big Treo fan)

That would be now, Ryan. You still have anonymous comments.

May You Live in Interesting Times

No you don't. You're just trolling. But thanks for playing.

I strongly advise that if you don't like it, you walk up to Ryan and ask for your money back. Or better yet, leave. Go found your own site where you can be as self-important as you want.

Take your own advise. Everything you've suggested is far more fitting of yourself.

So don't blame Ryan for failing to protect you from yourself.

I don't. I blame Ryan for pretending to run a site where he wants his users to act as if they respect each other when he's doing no such thing.

If Ryan really wanted this site to ensure that sort of respect, he'd turn on IP logging, and include IP addresses with people's posts.

May You Live in Interesting Times

No, Skippy, this ain't about censorship -- that's yet another one of your bullcrap smoke screens. It's about demanding that a web site run at higher standards of civility than a sixth grade playground. As far as I'm concerned, you can try to make any case you want about the subject at hand, so long as you grow up and join the adult conversation.

But then, Skippy, that's the whole problem, isn't it. You so often find yourself, as you were at the start of this debacle, in a position where you have no case. So you make a personal attack instead. Did a fine job of distracting everyone from what a fool you were making of yourself over Chinese business.

Something you only do because you believe that no one can retaliate. You're a coward, Skippy.

You don't have the courage to insult people the way you do, except through the belief that no one knows who you are, so there'll be no consequences.

Well, if Ryan had any brass, this time there would be, and he'd ban you, say for six months.

May You Live in Interesting Times

You're trying to have it both ways. If it's completely unacceptable, than don't accept it. There are two solutions to people like Skippy. Either you ban them because they won't grow up, or you change your site's rules so that they can't post anonymously, and are forced to be accountable for their juvenile delinquency.

Ryan should do away with anonymous posting. That will answer any claims Skippy has about being 'censored', because he'll be free to post all he wants. And it'll put him on the same level of accountability as everyone else.

Having watched the Skippys of the internet destroy more than a few forums, and having seen just about every imaginable attempt to use technology to control them, I have come to the conclusion that that is the only way to keep a site civilized but uncensored.

May You Live in Interesting Times

Ahem - someone posts a complete street address, "obscuring" it by removing some letters of only one word (e.g., "smith" ==> "sXXXh"), and literally nothing more, and they don't think THEY are the ones who "took things a little far"!?

It took me maybe 5 minutes to find the ONE street in Mountain View that pattern-matched your "obscured" word - and I live 3000 miles away in Virginia with almost literally NO knowledge about Mountain View!

Furthermore, I haven't the FAINTEST idea who you or P-etc are other than a couple (very) remote posters who occasionally (getting less occasionally!) post useful interesting PALM-etc-specific posts!

> ...That wasn't REALLY your home address that hengeem posted
> here, was it?...

Gack!

Hmmm...YOU said it wasn't!

== "...That's not Marty's real address, Ryan..."

-- http://www.palminfocenter.com/comments/8399/#119460

Sheesh.

I be cool with dat, yo. ;) But then what do you do when there's someone who may want to post inside information but doesn't wish to reveal their identity? Downsides to everything...

On accountability: I see TVoR as a fictional character, invented by someone with an extremely sadistic sense of humour - be they a 15-year-old in the basement or some help desk worker or web columnist or Diane Hackborn's ex-bitch or whoever/whatever the hell he/she is. You'll never be able to believe what it says (I use 'it' 'cause who can tell gender on the net?) or take anything it says seriously 'cause it chooses to remain anonymous. As such, opinions from people like yourself will always be given a little more weight by readers like myself because you're a real person.

Keep that in mind before you give it precisely what it wants - an argument. And enjoy reading the conspiracy theories that are so damn out-there they just might be true. Or just skip past them. None of us are taking TVoR words as gospel. Merely enjoying them, 'cause its posts are quite well-crafted.

I agree that posting personally identifying information without consent is wrong. Immediate deletion of such content and a three-strikes (or two, I'm not fussy) rule should apply.

Tim Carroll
Your friendly customer service robot
(and big Treo fan)

Speaking as one of the few people ever banned by Ryan (I forgot what about now, I think for abusing some HTML loopholes on the board or something) and who was very upset afterward, I have come to appreciate the open discourse on this board, and appreciate that Ryan is an even handed person who does not hold grudges. He comes over as a good person who has built a successful, enduring web site. New comers complain, but if they dont like the way it works they can start their own web site, and see if it last 7 years.

Instead of a moderation system, which will suppress MOST opposing views (e.g. WM sales numbers ;) ) I suggest a much better solution would be more moderators on the front page, who would remove particularly offensive posts, after some-one complains. This is a much more open system, and if the moderators remain accountable would be much less disruptive to the free atmosphere here.

Regarding the PSRC employees that complain about being abused:
a) you are a special case, I am personally surprised you dont get pelted with rotten tomatoes in the street for the way you messed up the Garnet/Cobalt transition.
b) a good case can be made that you should NEVER post on a POS orientated public board, unless approved by your PR person.

I therefore dont think you deserve special protection. As my web page says :

Try PalmInfocenter for great, free and open conversation about the real issues.

If you want boring conformity, try 1src.com. I'm sure their traffic needs the infusing of expert PSRC insider opinion much more.

Surur

They said I only argued for the sake of arguing, but after an hour I convinced them they were wrong...

When company employees post on a business related web site anonymously (as Penguinpowered and Stonemirror tried to do) its called astroturfing. Its generally viewed as a dishonest practice. This is because you will never hear them saying bad things about the company, and they therefore give a one sided perspective.

Even when exposed, you can still not expect to hear anything useful from them, as they are unlikely to admit to faults by their company. For an example of how this happens in practice for non-PSRC employees, one only have to look at Heather Cullen from Palm's post, and how they get received on the Brighthand and 1src forums.

So, in short, you will never hear an fully honest opinion from a company employee on a public board, and therefore I have very little sympathy for them being abused.

Surur

They said I only argued for the sake of arguing, but after an hour I convinced them they were wrong...

Something else to remember is that Voice's posts are, first of all, ALWAYS tongue in cheek. Anyone who cannot see that needs to lighten up and realize that it's just a website about PDAs & mobile tech, not a court of law or the front page of the Times. It's also obviously that these are not the disjointed, barely-literate ramblings of a 15 year old. Pay closer attention and you'll see it's a person with at least a foot in the door of the industry and a bone to pick with the Palm companies. No teenager could speak about the OS development, the "biz", the SFO "scene", BDSM, Japanese sexxx culture, and drop pop culture references in the course of a single post like he/she/it does!

Addtionally, as Tim said, Voice's posts are always exceedingly ENTERTAINING, well-written, and grammatically and syntactically correct--regardless of actual content. That, (TO ME) makes for exceedingly compelling/thought-provoking content, especially on a boring Friday afterooon in the dead of winter. In this day and age, ESPECIALLY on the 'net, such maturity is be commended. So I guess I am in the minority in preferring to read well-written, well-argued bits of toilet humor instad of slang-filled "fanb0i" rah-rah cheerleading.

Since PIC is a "anonymnity by scree name" free site, I think no one can complain TOO loudly-but some moderation would probably be in the best interest for the general concensus of Ryan and the site. For the time being, those scorned can always just stop posting under their current nicknames and renew under a different moniker. Or they could start posting in the forums, which are a DECIDEDLY tamer place. Interestingly enough, most of PIC's traffic is split between "front page people" and "forums people". Few users frequently post in both sections.

TreoCentral is as silly and pointless as any web forums I've ever seen. 1src is bland, bland, bland, and impossibly redundant. Brighthand has become a pathetic collection of a handful of "me too" high'n mighty types who force their own apologetic stance down everyone. The hailstorm of criticism unleasehed when I "broke" the LifeDrive's inadequacies and Palm's intentional CDMA Bluetooth crippling brought out the lynch mob at BH ad they haven't settled down since.

I am looking forward to Ryan's improved "system" with a mixture of trepidation and anticipation. And again, it's JUST a PDA news site. Everyone try to take a deep breath and start the week off to a better foot.

Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5-->TX

I'm not looking for "special" protection. I don't believe that posting people's (no matter where they work) home addresses, family photos, and abusing them in the basest possible terms is reasonable, and there's no provocation that can justify it, not even your heart-rending disappointment over Garnet and Cobalt. If you can't recognize the difference between free discourse and unrestrained abuse, that's going to cut down on your social life.

I don't mind discussing things, but none of what I've described above is discussion: as I said, it's a cheap attempt to intimidate people and stifle discussion.

Please don't suggest that this sort of nonsense is limited to those of us who work for PalmSource, either—David Beers, among others, receives treatment which is just as deplorable. In fact, anyone who takes issue with your little agendae receives much the same treatment, so it's not about working for PalmSource, it's more about failing to endorse the views of those who see any means to shut up those who disagree as "fair game".

Contrary to your claims, I have also never posted "anonymously" here--I've been clear from my first posting about whom I work for and what I did there.

The bottom line is that as long as off-topic abuse and invasion of privacy are the norm here, then there's no incentive to contribute anything substantial. And Palm Infocenter will become the place where you can read about it all second- or third-hand, after the news has been published at Linux Devices, Computing Unplugged, or someplace else.

Again, I will not be banning or censoring anyone. And by no means am I going to go big brother and start including IP address and SSN #'s on each post.

Basically the new system will involve adding more human intervention in moderating (its just been me on the articles the past 4-5 years) and a new karma system.

-Ryan

B. S. Skippy's a mean little punk, and deliberately abusive.

Anyone who cannot see that needs to lighten up and realize that it's just a website about PDAs & mobile tech, not a court of law or the front page of the Times.

It's also not a 6th grade playground. If you want skippy-style 'entertainment' the web is full of porn sites you can pursue.

It's also obviously that these are not the disjointed, barely-literate ramblings of a 15 year old.

Nope. they're the ramblings of a 15 year old who has read too much r crumb and mad magazine and spent too much time in the 'adult' part of the web.

Pay closer attention and you'll see it's a person with at least a foot in the door of the industry and a bone to pick with the Palm companies.

I've paid close attention. I've yet to see Skippy say something intelligent about the industry that someone else hadn't posted here first.

You're confusing a skill at cold reading with an understanding of the industry.

No teenager could speak about the OS development, the "biz", the SFO "scene", BDSM, Japanese sexxx culture, and drop pop culture references in the course of a single post like he/she/it does!

You don't seem to know many teenagers.

May You Live in Interesting Times

Won't work, and you know it. moderation systems only work if no article ever makes it to the web before it's read and approved by moderators and you don't have the resources or willingness to do that.

and a new karma system.

Given the responses this thread's getting, a karma system is the fastest possible to turn this place into nothing but a cesspool.

May You Live in Interesting Times

That one's easy. They email it to Ryan, he vettes it, and it gets posted by him as a rumor.

It's a lot less work for Ryan than real moderation is.

May You Live in Interesting Times

Doesn't work. That's more or less what's going on now, with the bonus that Ryan tries hard to notice offensive posts and get them off before anyone complains.

Try PalmInfocenter for great, free and open conversation about the real issues.

Free and open conversation is a fine thing. I'm all for it. But childish behavior like Skippy's does more to squash conversation than moderation ever does. Not everyone comes to the internet with an asbestoes suit, and Skippy's taunting drives away people who don't want to put up with the abuse.

You do a fine job of representing an opposing point of view without it. All I'm asking is that everyone who posts here be held to the standard Ryan claims he believes in.

May You Live in Interesting Times