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Comments on: Access Linux Platform Demo Screenshots

Access Linux Platform Demo ScreenshotsA few screenshots of the ACCESS Linux Platform have been published. The pictures show a few aspects of the ALP demo that was being shown by PalmSource at 3GSM. Like the previous pictures these pictures were taken from a Linux phone running an early version of ALP, however these new shots show some portions the MAX interface we've all been waiting to see.
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Where's the Beef?

DJS_TX @ 2/22/2006 2:00:30 PM # Q
While this is exciting... where is the screen shot that ties palm OS to linux? I see a notepad screen that would be easy to generate under any OS and I see some screens that have nothing to do with Palm..

I want something that proves to me that this is a linux device and the palm legacy apps are running and it is syncing to a desktop.

These shots are even impressive eye candy, much less evidence of palm linux.

David


RE: Where's the Beef?
PenguinPowered @ 2/22/2006 2:26:05 PM # Q
The phone is a Haier N60, which is their first entry into the Linux phone market. That the device is a Linux device is easy to demonstrate.

What's running on it, you'll have to take the word of the guy who wrote the article. How's your Russian?



May You Live in Interesting Times

Don't be deceived by Smoke & Mirrors (S&M)
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 2/22/2006 10:31:47 PM # Q
1) NetFrontLinux is VERY much a work in progress, with numerous major decisions (like whether or not MAX will run on X Windows!) yet to be decided. The GUI is not set in stone and this demo should be taken with a Copeland-sized grain of salt.

2) If the launcher Access finalizes on is incapable of presenting/listing ALL apps (PalmOS-native, MAX-native, Java-native and Linux-native) in a single view, this whole platform is rather poorly conceived. Having to manually enter a separate screen to access PalmOS apps through POSE would show how inelegantly PalmOS support has been grafted onto NetFrontLinux. Essentially this would mean the OS represents 4 disintegrated environments under one hastily-assembled roof.

3) PalmOS is DEAD. All that remains is (cynical) support of some PalmOS apps up to PalmOS 5. Cobalt and all the work that went into that have been thrown into the dumpster. PalmLinux (the tragic attempt to port Cobalt to a Linux kernel) and all the work that went into that have also been thrown into the dumpster. What remains of PalmOS is a caricature that makes a mockery of the past 4 years of development. PalmOS is now nothing more than a gimmick, like a mobile TV app or a high megapixel camera. The amazing thing no one seems to have realized is that it will make more sense to use StyleTap Platform to "emulate" PalmOS on a Windows Mobile device than it does to use POSE to emulate PalmOS on a NetFrontLinux device. StyleTap's existence effectively neutralizes any potential competitive advantage for Access of having POSE on NetFrontLinux. $320 million for the rights to POSE, a Chinese Linux phone OS and a few dozen Chinese Linux codemonkeys? W T F was Access thinking???

Benhamou,McVeigh, et. al. fooled 'em all.


TVoR

Copyright 2006
TVoR, Inc.


------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

Access got p0wN3d.
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 2/22/2006 11:11:36 PM # Q
Benhamou, McVeigh, et. al. fooled 'em all.

Due diligence, indeed!

The perfect irony would be if someday Microsoft allows an enterprising company to mimic the PalmOS UI (or even switch to and advanced tabbed launcher) and include a credit exchangable for a download of StyleTap Platform (among other apps so they can't get sued!) in the box.

All your POSE are belong to me™.

TVoR

------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

RE: Where's the Beef?
PenguinPowered @ 2/22/2006 11:12:59 PM # Q
$320 million for the rights to POSE, a Chinese Linux phone OS and a few dozen Chinese Linux codemonkeys? W T F was Access thinking???

That's not what they paid the money for. You still haven't figured out what was worth so much to Access.

As a side note, I would argue that a "high megapixel" camera is hardly a gimmick. But then, my camera uses 4"x5" negatives with an effective resolution of 100dpi (that's 20 megapixels for those who don't care to do the arithmetic.)



May You Live in Interesting Times

RE: Where's the Beef?
freakout @ 2/23/2006 2:46:03 AM # Q
"You still haven't figured out what was worth so much to Access."

If you don't mind my asking, what was it?

Tim Carroll
Your friendly customer service robot
(and big Treo fan)

RE: Where's the Beef?
PenguinPowered @ 2/23/2006 3:25:46 AM # Q
Pardon the pun, but it was access.


May You Live in Interesting Times

Access DENIED. Abort. Retry. Fail.
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 2/23/2006 3:36:17 AM # Q
>>>$320 million for the rights to POSE, a Chinese Linux phone OS and a few dozen Chinese Linux codemonkeys? W T F was Access thinking???

That's not what they paid the money for. You still haven't figured out what was worth so much to Access.

Oh let me guess: buying PalmSource and their China MobileSoft division is somehow going to open up China and its hordes of potential future cellphone customers to Access. Dream on. Any company that tries to profit from China ultimaely gets screwed. And having the ancient PalmOS duct taped to NetFrontLinux is not suddenly going to make this Frankestein-style OS very appealing. Windows Mobile has the momentum and the numbers and will have a several year head start on NetFrontLinux by the time the latter OS is ready (assuming, of course it's EVER ready).

As a side note, I would argue that a "high megapixel" camera is hardly a gimmick. But then, my camera uses 4"x5" negatives with an effective resolution of 100dpi (that's 20 megapixels for those who don't care to do the arithmetic.)

Let me spell it out for you: PalmOS is now nothing more than a gimmick, like a mobile TV app or a high megapixel camera ON A CELLPHONE. PalmOS is now about to become just another "feature" that can potentially serve as fodder for the ad writers.


------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

RE: Where's the Beef?
twrock @ 2/23/2006 4:55:50 AM # Q
Any [foreign] company that tries to profit from China ultimaely gets screwed.

Honestly, I don't know how much the CMS acquisition and the potential it's "access" influenced the price, but I've got to think it played a major role. In any case, I think the CMS acquisition by PalmSource certainly paid off for some people. We'll see if ACCESS can make it pay as well.

It might not be the "mythical color HandEra", but I'm liking my TX anyway.

RE: Where's the Beef?
SeldomVisitor @ 2/23/2006 6:16:03 AM # Q
Having dollars does not mean having sense.

Paul Allen has a few dollars.

He bought a major stake in RCN when the price was something like $50-ish/share (or maybe $30-ish...or maybe $60-ish).

Check out the price now.

Having money means you do things in a big way, not necessarily in a smart way.

RE: Where's the Beef?
PenguinPowered @ 2/23/2006 1:40:31 PM # Q
Any company that tries to profit from China ultimaely gets screwed.

Tell that to McDonalds and Renault.

And having the ancient PalmOS duct taped to NetFrontLinux is not suddenly going to make this Frankestein-style OS very appealing.

I'm not sure how much simpler I can make this statement, but I'll try: Access doesn't care about PalmOS. That's not why they bought PalmSource. Mike Kelley tried to convince me otherwise. The entire management of PSRC and Access behaved otherwise. But it was clear to me when Access announced, and it should be obvious to everyone now.

Windows Mobile has the momentum and the numbers and will have a several year head start on NetFrontLinux by the time the latter OS is ready (assuming, of course it's EVER ready).

Not in China, where mLinux is already shipping.

To you and me the difference between mLinux, PalmLinux, and ALP matters. To Haier, et al, it doesn't. All that matters is that they get to keep selling smartphones with ever expanding feature sets that don't run M$ operating systems.

As long as you keep trying to see the Access play as somehow relating to PalmOS, and not to linux-smartphone-in-Asia, you're not going to see either what they wanted or why they stand a good chance of success.


May You Live in Interesting Times

RE: Where's the Beef?
PenguinPowered @ 2/23/2006 1:47:44 PM # Q
Paul Allen has made a few mistakes along the way. (Ask him about sports teams some time.) But on the whole, he's done very well.

And he's having a lot of fun, doing it. Funding Burt Rutan's win of the X prize wasn't "wise investing", but I sure would have loved to been along for that ride.

Acess, on the other hand, has no prior track record buying companies, so it'll be interesting to see how they do on their first outing.

May You Live in Interesting Times

The Great Chinese Dream [Nightmare]
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 2/23/2006 10:55:11 PM # Q
>>>Any company that tries to profit from China ultimaely gets screwed.

Tell that to McDonalds and Renault.

No, I'll just tell it to Microsoft (and almost any other big software company that has tried to bang the Chinese Dragon over the past couple of decades), Ford, General Motors, Chrysler, Palm, and a cast of hundreds of other rueful, remorseful American starlet companies that ended up getting soddomized on the Chinese Casting Couch (C³). Even a company that has achieved fleeting success in China like Motorola is really just being used by the Chinese and will eventually be chewed up and spit out now that the Chinese have benefitted from Motorola's IP and instruction. In 2004, the Chinese sold the United States $160 billion more in goods than they bought. In 2005 the China trade deficit skyrocketed to $200 billion. I'll leave it up to you to learn how Wal-Mart has become one of the biggest contributors to this deficit, while at the same time becoming a cancer on the American economy. Once the Chinese figure out the auto industry all he11 will break loose and they'll probably end up causing a recession in the USA, allowing the Chinese to swoop in and buy up American assets a firesale prices... China already has a disconcerting amount of control over the US economy - what they do with that power over the next 2 or 3 years will be interesting to watch.

While it's no longer mandatory for the foreign dreamers to go into joint ventures with state-owned enterprises in China, in the long run the main winner in any interactions with the Chinese economy is CHINA. Dazzled by the pipe dream of selling to a captive market of 1 BILLION Chinese citizens, American companies are willing to allow the Chinese to take liberties with their a$$es, including blatant intellectual property theft. Typical story: American company comes over. "Partners" with the Chinese (actually, the Americans put up most of the $$$). Endures a few lean years while the Chinese copy/borrow/steal every trade secret the Americans possess. Shuts down Chinese operations due to lack of profitability (often because the Chinese are by then using American techniques + cheap labor to undercut the Americans). It's a sad, sad refrain and the few exceptions don't disprove the rule.

>>>And having the ancient PalmOS duct taped to NetFrontLinux is not suddenly going to make this Frankestein-style OS very appealing.

I'm not sure how much simpler I can make this statement, but I'll try: Access doesn't care about PalmOS. That's not why they bought PalmSource. Mike Kelley tried to convince me otherwise. The entire management of PSRC and Access behaved otherwise. But it was clear to me when Access announced, and it should be obvious to everyone now.

The way Access is treating PalmOS like an afterthought suggests either they are insane or yes, PalmOS is of minimal importance to them. It's possible that of all the companies that had bid for PalmSource, Access valued PalmOS the LEAST. A company that valued PalmOS would not end development of that OS within a few months of purchasing the OS. "Due diligence"? Was Access suckered or was PalmOS never the primary target in this takeout? That's the $320 MILLION question. In any event, for those of us who value PalmOS, the point is moot: PalmOS is now comatose, on NetFrontLinux life support and has no chance of returning to life unless (as I alluded to at the time of the PalmSource sale) Access is holding PalmOS hostage + may be willing to sell the rights to Garnet and all the Cobalt + PalmLinux code to Palm for a price (say, $150 MILLION). Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm...

NetFrontLinux/DogFoodOS looks like a shaky kludge that Access will have little chance of delivering on time. China MobileSoft's current OS products may be shipping, but are they anything special in + of themselves? No. Is using CMS as an "in" to the Chinese market going to work? Probably not. China likes "free" more than any other feature, and Chinese carriers + cellphone manufacturers will simply reverse engineer + clone any Linux-based phone OS, thereby effectively shuting Access out of the loop once Access has done all of the hard work. (Ask Palm about piracy problems in Asia...)

>>>Windows Mobile has the momentum and the numbers and will have a several year head start on NetFrontLinux by the time the latter OS is ready (assuming, of course it's EVER ready).

Not in China, where mLinux is already shipping.

So? Somewhere in China, someone's probably already produced µLinux - an exact copy of mLinux - and is giving it away for free.

To you and me the difference between mLinux, PalmLinux, and ALP matters. To Haier, et al, it doesn't. All that matters is that they get to keep selling smartphones with ever expanding feature sets that don't run M$ operating systems.

If that was true, there would be little reason to bother developing NetFrontLinux. And if mLinux is not exactly the second coming of Amiga then the sale price of PalmSource becomes suspect.

As long as you keep trying to see the Access play as somehow relating to PalmOS, and not to linux-smartphone-in-Asia, you're not going to see either what they wanted or why they stand a good chance of success.

Again, given how many Linux-based OSes may be out soon and how little IP is valued in countries like China, if Access looked at the Big Picture it would be obvious the rainbow doesn't end in China.

*************************************************************************

- An interesting summary article on the Chinese economy:

http://www.inc.com/magazine/20050301/china.html


- A nice summary of what to do to TRY and succeed in doing business in China. Too bad Palm didn't know these common sense "rules" a few years ago BEFORE they embarassed themselves in China:

http://www.buyusa.gov/china/en/doingbizinchina.html

TVoR



------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

RE: Where's the Beef?
PenguinPowered @ 2/24/2006 2:11:08 AM # Q
Was Access suckered or was PalmOS never the primary target in this takeout?

IMO, the later.

You're still not getting the point about China, though. Here are three thoughts to help you out:

1) China announced today that it has 400 million mobile phone subscribers. (http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2006-02/23/content_4218207.htm)

2) CMS is already a Chinese company. Nothing you're pointing out about Western companies doing business in China applies. And it is doing very well in China.

3) China is only one of the major consumers of telephony in Asia, although it is the fastest growing.

As far as "free", you don't get how the telecom business in China works. While there are knock off companies, they don't give their wares away, either.

And no, Access isn't holding PalmOS hostage. Palm, as you'll recall, has license rights already, for a lot less than $150M.

Access paid more for PSRC than they meant to. There's a suit (whatever happened to that?) that lays out the story of last minute bidding. But they knew what they wanted and what they wanted it for, and it wasn't PoS, as the ALP announcement makes abundantly clear.


May You Live in Interesting Times

Was China MobileSoft the ONLY useful part of PalmSource???
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 2/24/2006 9:14:48 PM # Q
>>>Was Access suckered or was PalmOS never the primary target in this takeout?

IMO, the later.

You may be right.

You're still not getting the point about China, though. Here are three thoughts to help you out:

No, Marty. I don't think YOU are getting the point about China.

1) China announced today that it has 400 million mobile phone subscribers. (http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2006-02/23/content_4218207.htm)

And how many computer users are there in China? And how are Microsoft's SALES of Windows XP and Windows desktop apps going? Foreign firms are always drooling over the tantalizing SIZE of the Chinese market, but the harsh reality of the inaccessibility + inequality of that market are usually only realized by the time it's too late.

2) CMS is already a Chinese company. Nothing you're pointing out about Western companies doing business in China applies. And it is doing very well in China.

No, China MobileSoft is a China-based subsidiary of a JAPANESE company. Do you think the Chinese like Japanese companies, Marty? Do you really?

3) China is only one of the major consumers of telephony in Asia, although it is the fastest growing.

And phone OSes can be copied and commoditized ("legally" or illegally) in other parts of Asia just as easily as they can be in China. Greed and piracy are international.

As far as "free", you don't get how the telecom business in China works. While there are knock off companies, they don't give their wares away, either.

The pirates might not give their wares away for free, but they can drastically undercut the companies that actually had to spend R + D $$$ coming up with the original software. Access offers China Telecom a phone license fee of $5/unit. "Excess China Corp" offers a similar OS for $1/unit (easy to do since no money was spent on R + D). Who's China Telecom gonna pick? The Japanese Capitalst Pigs who are now the China MobileSoft masters, or Excess China Corp - who just happen to be owned by a friend of China Telecom's chairman? Hard decision, isn't it? I'm amazed that you thing the China MobileSoft relationships will continue on, business as usual now that they are owned by the Japanese.

And no, Access isn't holding PalmOS hostage. Palm, as you'll recall, has license rights already, for a lot less than $150M.

Palm has the rights to a DEAD platform. If they plan on just playing out the PalmOS string, releasing more devices powered by the now-overwhelmed, hacked-up PalmOS 5, their current contract covers them well. Palm has PalmOS locked up well past the point that it's obsolete (which it arguably already is). But if Palm was hoping on extending PalmOS to be capable enough to power the next generation of mobile devices, Access has dashed those hopes with its pathetic New Plan for NetFrontLinux. Since Palm lacks the ability to create a competitive next-generation OS on its own, that would mean Palm will end up turning to Windows Mobile - by default. And since Palm lackes the design/engineering skills to differentiate itself from the other Windows Mobile hordes + can't hope to compete on price, it has no hope of sustaining profitability. What a dilemma. A self-induced dilemma, all stemming from the shell game Palm played when they spun PalmSource off to make a quick buck.

Access paid more for PSRC than they meant to. There's a suit (whatever happened to that?) that lays out the story of last minute bidding. But they knew what they wanted and what they wanted it for, and it wasn't PoS, as the ALP announcement makes abundantly clear.

Access paid a ridiculous fee for PalmSource and I've gone on record as predicting that this gamble will ultimately bankrupt the company. If the presented plans for the architecture of NetFrontLinux are to be believed (and one assumes that Access truly did "due diligence" and understood how little Cobalt/PalmLinux offered a company looking for an OS solution NOW), then yes, Chinana MobileSoft is the key. (Because the Montpellier, France subsidiary sure as he11 wasn't the key!)


These are Interesting Times. Like Lennon said: Strange Days Indeed.

TVoR


------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

Access will sell off Cobalt, PalmLinux (+ maybe even Garnet)
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 2/24/2006 10:01:41 PM # Q
There's a suit (whatever happened to that?) that lays out the story of last minute bidding.

PalmSource would have been wise to settle any claims Motorola had out of court. What's $15 MILLION when you're flush with cash like Access is? Not.

I still expect that Access will (either by design or out of desperation) sell off the rights to Cobalt and PalmLinux code within a year or two*.

[*Another BOLD prediction from TVoR™]


Copyright 2006.
TVoR, Inc

------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

RE: Where's the Beef?
PenguinPowered @ 2/24/2006 10:23:03 PM # Q
Like I said, you don't get how the Chinese preceive businesses. CMS is not seen as a subsidiary. It's seen as a Chinese company.

Do you think the Chinese like Japanese companies, Marty? Do you really?

CMS is in Nanjing, and yes, I know what that means in china/japan relations. But you answered your own question. Besides CMS, Access gets an American front company to do business for it in places where Japan is not so well loved, and an EU subsidiary.

Access offers China Telecom a phone license fee of $5/unit. "Excess China Corp" offers a similar OS for $1/unit (easy to do since no money was spent on R + D). Who's China Telecom gonna pick?

Like I said, you're not getting it. CMS doesn't do business directly with China Telecom. It does business with handset makers. And despite the existance of "Excess China Corp", the makers have already answered your question: they're buying from CMS already.

Your wrong about Access going bankrupt over the PSRC buy. The math doesn't work out to make that likely. At worst, they do what NTT did with its huge purchase of Verio: write it off as a bad decision.

Japanese companies aren't bounded by the sort of short-term quarter-to-quarter definition of 'success' that US companies live with and the Japanese government isn't big on allowing its tech companies to fail.

Besides, Access is going to deliver ALP and it's going to be successful in the largest, fastest growing, phone market in the world.

I recommend that Ryan find some buddies who can read Russian and Japanese, but especially Chinese.



May You Live in Interesting Times

Time will show you're WRONG, Marty. Bookmark this page.
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 2/24/2006 10:45:25 PM # Q
Like I said, you don't get how the Chinese preceive businesses. CMS is not seen as a subsidiary. It's seen as a Chinese company.

No, Marty. China MobileSoft is now a Japanese company. And it will be exploited appropriately.

>>>Do you think the Chinese like Japanese companies, Marty? Do you really?

CMS is in Nanjing, and yes, I know what that means in china/japan relations. But you answered your own question. Besides CMS, Access gets an American front company to do business for it in places where Japan is not so well loved, and an EU subsidiary.

That $320 MILLION didn't buy Access a he11 of a lot. PalmSource's Sunnyvale operations will be severely downsized soon enough.

>>>Access offers China Telecom a phone license fee of $5/unit. "Excess China Corp" offers a similar OS for $1/unit (easy to do since no money was spent on R + D). Who's China Telecom gonna pick?

Like I said, you're not getting it. CMS doesn't do business directly with China Telecom. It does business with handset makers. And despite the existance of "Excess China Corp", the makers have already answered your question: they're buying from CMS already.

Actually, "China Telecom" was meant to be my apocryphal generic Chinese handset maker. I just Googled the name and found out that it's "the leading provider of wireline telecommunications services in China, providing voice, data, image, multimedia and telecommunications and information services in 20 municipalities, provinces and autonomous regions in China with a subscriber base exceeding 200 million." Ooops!

First of all, let's not overstate how well China MobileSoft are currently doing. It's my understanding that they've just started shipping any decent real product in the past year. And it's not like they have the market locked up right now. Why don't you post some figures on how many OS licenses China MobileSoft has sold in the past year, Marty? Now that they finally have a real OS shipping, how long before a REAL Chinese CopyCat clones the work of those foreign infidels (China MobileSoft) and undercuts the price? Then what will happen to Access' fledgeling Chinese Dream? Up in smoke, just like all the other FOREIGN companies that Drooled, Came, Saw, Invested, Built, and were Sodomized.

Care to make a wager, Marty? $100 donation to the charity of the winner's choice. I say Access will be bankrupt (or bought out) within 2 years. Secondary bet (for $10): I say Access will end up selling off the rights ("ownership") to one or more of Cobalt/PalmLinux/PalmOS 5 within 18 months.

You're wrong about Access going bankrupt over the PSRC buy. The math doesn't work out to make that likely. At worst, they do what NTT did with its huge purchase of Verio: write it off as a bad decision.

We'll see soon enough which one of us was right. Remember: Access was not exactly a huge company to begin with. Buying PalmSource was quite a stretch for them, even with DoCoMo's big pockets lurking in the background. I could see DoCoMo stepping in and buying a larger chunk of Access (like Sony did with PalmSource) when things start to get desperate. If the China MobileSoft gamble fails, where does that leave Access? Their NetFront browser is ALREADY facing competition from the likes of Opera, and as mobile hardware becomes more powerful, it will be much easier for less elegant browsers to compete with NetFront. Eventually, an Open Source mobile version of a browser like FireFox will destroy Access' previous business model of being the provider of browsers for mobile devices. It's just a matter of when - not "if" - this will happen.

Japanese companies aren't bounded by the sort of short-term quarter-to-quarter definition of 'success' that US companies live with and the Japanese government isn't big on allowing its tech companies to fail.

Actually, this traditional stereotype of how Japanese businesses think has become a lot more "Americanized" in the past 5 years. Ask anyone who's familiar with Japan. The failures of major banks + businesses have injected a little bit of America's desire for instant gratification into Japan's corporate culture.

Besides, Access is going to deliver ALP and it's going to be successful in the largest, fastest growing, phone market in the world.

We shall soon see about that.

I recommend that Ryan find some buddies who can read Russian and Japanese, but especially Chinese.

Maybe he should ask Mr. Schlesinger. [Snort]


TVoR



------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

RE: Where's the Beef?
Surur @ 2/24/2006 10:57:50 PM # Q
Just throwing this out there, but it occurs to me, if the focus of Access is eastern markets, that the POS library of apps have little value, as most apps would not have been localized to Japanese/Chinese/Korean.

Surur

They said I only argued for the sake of arguing, but after an hour I convinced them they were wrong...

Some interesting comments - what do others here predict?
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 2/24/2006 11:28:18 PM # Q
To be brutally honest, "the POS library of apps" ALREADY "have little value" to users that are new to mobile devices. The much-ballyhooed PalmOS app library is now mainly signigicant to hose of us who already were longtime PalmOS users. Furthermore, for Windows Mobile users, StyleTap Platform effectively neutralizes this advantage.

Things are NOT looking good for PalmOS these days...


TVoR

------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

RE: Where's the Beef?
twrock @ 2/25/2006 1:37:15 AM # Q
(This thread has gotten quite interesting.)

I say Access will end up selling off the rights ("ownership") to one or more of Cobalt/PalmLinux/PalmOS 5 within 18 months.

Particularly right after the disclosure of how the bidding unfolded, I wondered if this wasn't how it would play out in the end by design. We didn't know what was being said between Palm and Access. But based on what Access has disclosed about their ALPOS, it seems they aren't "planning" on that at the moment. Not that it can't or won't happen, just that it doesn't appear to be the plan.

18 months seems pretty soon. ALP is supposed to be "available" at the end of 2006. That date needs only slip a little and the availability is pushed to a year from now. Then potential hardware manufacturers need some time to get their products to market. Seems that 18 month date will be hit just about the time the earliest unit gets into hands. Not much time for Access to evaluate the value of keeping POS in house or selling it off.

Either way this all shakes out, I've got my old T2, my new TX and a soon-to-arrive Zodiac. I think I'll be able to hold out until some more of the dust settles.

It might not be the "mythical color HandEra", but I'm liking my TX anyway.

An Apropos Japanese Saying
stonemirror @ 2/25/2006 11:16:48 AM # Q
馬鹿につける薬はない. ("No medicine cures idiocy.")

RE: Where's the Beef?
PenguinPowered @ 2/25/2006 1:18:09 PM # Q
Now that they finally have a real OS shipping, how long before a REAL Chinese CopyCat clones the work of those foreign infidels (China MobileSoft) and undercuts the price?

It already happened. And it played out the way I described, not the way you predicted.

So, we know that you don't know who is who in China telecommunications ("I googled China Telecom...") or what's going on WRT copy cat software in China. Betcha didn't know that the Chinese government is starting to crack down on copy cats because it's costing the PRC money, either.

As far as your bet offer, I notice that you're hedging. Now we've gone from bankrupt to bankrupt or bought. I'll take the $100 bet on bankrupt only, provided we limit the charities to registered US non-profits. You can make the check out to Habitat for Humanity and date it 25 Feb 08.

So, here's the bet: I bet that Access will not go bankrupt prior to 24 Feb 08. If I'm right, you send $100 to Habitat for Humanity on 25 Feb 08. If I'm wrong, I send $100 to the registered US non-profit of your choice on 2 Feb 08. You in?



May You Live in Interesting Times

An apropos English saying:
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 2/25/2006 1:27:10 PM # Q
Let sleeping dogs lie.


http://stonemirror.wordpress.com/tag/japan-2005/


"I had a nice chat, of sorts, anyway, with Kobayashi-san and Suzuki-san. Even with my limited Japanese and their limited English, we managed just fine."

"The lady running the sobaya was extremely nice, and seemed very taken with my halting attempts to converse in Japanese. “Iie, jozû desu!”—”No, you’re quite skilful!”—she would say when I commented on how poor my Japanese was.

My friend told me (if she’s to be believed, and I think she is) that my accent is actually surprisingly excellent for a gaijin. Certainly, I received this reaction of delighted astonishment from many people when I would do something like say “Dô itashima****e” in response to someone’s “Dômo arigatô gozaimasu”, as though I had done some sort of trick that they’d have otherwise thought impossible. When we left, the soba lady said goodbye to me by saying, “Ki-o tsukete,” “Take care of your spirit,” a lovely parting saying that you don’t hear all that often.

I was right: I did get a lot of mileage out of “Nihongo-o hetaku hanasemasu.”"

"I’ve got my conversational skills down as far as dealing with the konbini (convenience store, of which there are a bazillion) goes. “Irrashaimase!” “Ohayo! Kore-wa, kudasai.” “Go-hyaku sanjuu go en, onegai shimasu…” “Hai, domo.” “Arigato gozaimasu!” “Iie.”"

"I was showing off my knowedge of kanji, pointing at random signs and saying, “That one means ’spring’! That one means ‘meadow’! That one means ‘name’!”"

**************************************************************************


Baka American gaijin wannabe Japanophiles like you are sneered at by the Japanese, Bubba. They're not laughing with you, they're laughing at you. You're just don't realize it yet when they're making fun of you. While your awkward, halting attempts at speaking Japanese are touching in their naïve, child-like innocence, eventually even you will realize how little you understand. It's amusing to hear you keep spewing the little Japanese catchphrases you've cribbed from your well-worn copy of Japanese For Dummies. Ever see a bear dance in a circus? Elegant, isn't it? No matter how much you try and no matter how much Japanes merchandise you surround yourself with, you will ALWAYS be a crass outsider to the Japanese. Don't delude yourself otherwise, Bubba.


Ki o tsukete


TVoR


------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

Thanks for your donation, Marty
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 2/25/2006 2:08:23 PM # Q
>>>Now that they finally have a real OS shipping, how long before a REAL Chinese CopyCat clones the work of those foreign infidels (China MobileSoft) and undercuts the price?

It already happened. And it played out the way I described, not the way you predicted.

Ummmm... Marty, give it time. China MobileSoft was not taken over by Access too long ago.

So, we know that you don't know who is who in China telecommunications ("I googled China Telecom...")

Ummmm... Marty, I already said I did not know China Telecom was a real company. Thanks for re-stating that, though.

or what's going on WRT copy cat software in China. Betcha didn't know that the Chinese government is starting to crack down on copy cats because it's costing the PRC money, either.

Software theft continues unchecked in China. And China will continue to turn a blind eye to the theft of programs and intellectual property of foreign companies until foreign nations exert pressure on China through sanctions to comply with copyright laws. For years, victimized American software companies like Microsoft have tried to get China to play nice, but China only does what's in China's best interests. And the Chinese feel it's in their best interests to pirate American software to the tune of BILLIONS of $$$ per year rather than sending that money back to the rightful American copyright owners.

The United States should have gotten tough with China a LONG time ago. It's time we start boycotting products that are made in China and start supporting companies that cotinue to manufacture their goods in the USA.

As far as your bet offer, I notice that you're hedging. Now we've gone from bankrupt to bankrupt or bought. I'll take the $100 bet on bankrupt only, provided we limit the charities to registered US non-profits. You can make the check out to Habitat for Humanity and date it 25 Feb 08.

Not hedging - just aware that (like PalmSource + unlike Be) Access has assets that are valuable enough that they would likely attract a sale before they went bankrupt.

So the offer stands, but I'll modify it to read "Bankrupt or bought after financial losses."

So, here's the bet: I bet that Access will not go bankrupt prior to 24 Feb 08. If I'm right, you send $100 to Habitat for Humanity on 25 Feb 08. If I'm wrong, I send $100 to the registered US non-profit of your choice on 25 Feb 08. You in?

I say Access will be bankrupt (or bought out after financial losses) within 2 years. Secondary bet (for $10): I say Access will end up selling off the rights ("ownership") to one or more of Cobalt/PalmLinux/PalmOS 5 within 18 months.

When you're proven wrong, you'll send the money to the NOW Legal Defense and Education Fund on February 25, 2008. I thank you in advance for your kind donation.

http://tinyurl.com/ksyye


TVoR

------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

RE: Where's the Beef?
stonemirror @ 2/25/2006 2:42:20 PM # Q
I bet that Access will not go bankrupt prior to 24 Feb 08.

The professional bookmakers say this is a sucker bet: http://tinyurl.com/f3cao. See if you can get odds.

Et tu, Marty? Et tu?
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 2/25/2006 3:08:20 PM # Q
http://www.fogey.com/ALPOsWMax.jpg

Most people would rather have Max Heapspace rather than Max Headroom...

In the name of Buddy Christ, I REBUKE thee!


Are you REALLY in Mountain View, Marty? Hilarious.


TVoR


------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

RE: Where's the Beef?
SeldomVisitor @ 2/25/2006 4:23:22 PM # Q
> ...Are you REALLY in Mountain View, Marty?

The web is an amazing place. I got on Google and asked for

== "street names in mountain view, ca"

and, of course, got a gajillion hits. One, however, had THIS:

-- http://www.ci.mtnview.ca.us/citydepts/pw/swp/curbside_street_index_CD.htm

Interesting result!

Lol!

which unfortunately doesn't have an "angle" view (too bad!) for this location (which is a way-cool feature if the location does have one).

Wonder if a further search would give...you know...something MORE interesting! White Pages anyone?

Gotta luv The 'Net!

[the other day I sent an email off to someone to mildly complain about something and wanted to include a VERY particular sound file - so I googled "the horror the horror wav" and actually got EXACTLY the hit on Marlon Brando in Apocalypse Now saying JUST and ONLY that as I wanted! Wheeeee!]

RE: Where's the Beef?
Admin @ 2/25/2006 5:12:07 PM # Q
while this is all public stuff if you know where to look, I don't think its appropriate to be posting anyone's specific info like that here.

-Ryan
Privacy? What privacy?
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 2/25/2006 5:14:27 PM # Q
For a mere $50 "donation" I'll allow you the "pleasure" of being able to track Marty's whereabouts 24/7 in real time on Googlemaps. I can also do a package deal of Marty + Dianne Hackborn for only $89.99. Realtime on-demand pay-per-view satellite images coming soon...

The Voyeur of Reason

------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

Just kidding, Ryan
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 2/25/2006 5:27:12 PM # Q
while this is all public stuff if you know where to look, I don't think its appropriate to be posting anyone's specific info like that here.

That's not Marty's real address, Ryan. I drove over to meet Marty for a cup of tea but they said no one named Marty Fouts was ever at that address. Pity.

;-O


TVoR

------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

Will Skippy ever grow up?
PenguinPowered @ 2/25/2006 10:23:50 PM # Q
Ryan, Skippy's just a sick wannabe. It deserves bannation, or you need to admit that you don't care about whether people are respectful of each other or not. I don't care which, but pick one and do it.

I think a lot of people here would be amused if they knew who Skippy really is and why it knows so little about the industry it keeps writing about. I know I was amused when I found out.

Whadya say, Skippy? You got any balls? 'fess up to who you are and put us all on an even playing field. Let's all have a look at that "web column" you write there in your parents' basement.

Of course, Skippy won't. Skippy, in addition to being a r. crumb loser, is a monumental coward.


May You Live in Interesting Times

Where's the LOVE, Marty?
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 2/25/2006 10:45:00 PM # Q
Ryan, Skippy's just a sick wannabe.

Wow, Marty. That was harsh.

It deserves bannation,

"It"??? Gee Marty, I think you need to take a deep breath there. YOU don't decide who gets banned around here.

or you need to admit that you don't care about whether people are respectful of each other or not.

Ryan doesn't "NEED" to do anything. You "NEED" to stop making such absurd demands. Until this becomes Martyinfocenter, ranting the way you are now is WAY out of line. You "NEED" to apologize to Ryan and all of the readers of Palminfocenter for your latest rabid screed.

I don't care which, but pick one and do it.

Or else what? Are you gonna beat Ryan up if he doesn't do what you want him to do, tough guy? If you want to continue this conversation offline I'd be more than willing to deliver the biotchslapping in person. I go down to Mountainview periodically, so email me when you want to receive some TVoR lovin'.

I think a lot of people here would be amused if they knew who Skippy really is and why it knows so little about the industry it keeps writing about. I know I was amused when I found out.

So Dianne Hackborne finally figured it out and told you? Took her long enough. I'm actually surprised she said anything to you. I guess all's fair in love and war...

Whadya say, Skippy? You got any balls?

Ummmm... actually no, I don't. Of course I'm not supposed to. What's YOUR excuse for your tragic lack of cojones, Marty? When I ripped you a new one did the rapier also castrate you? Did you even HAVE any cojones to begin with?

'fess up to who you are and put us all on an even playing field.

Wait a minute. Did Ms. Hackborne tell you or not? Sounds like she didn't after all. Nice try, Marty.

Let's all have a look at that "web column" you write there in your parents' basement.

You want me to reveal who I write for? But if I do that, it would reveal my secret identity. Isn't it better to keep the mystery, Marty? Tittilation serves a function. Just ask Dianne!

Of course, Skippy won't. Skippy, in addition to being a r. crumb loser, is a monumental coward.

Tough words from a feeble computer geek. You really hurt me there, Marty. Ow. You. Really. Hurt. Me.


Serves me right for trying to be nice to you...


Take care, little buddy.

TVoR



------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

Apologies to Dianne Hackborn
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 2/25/2006 11:26:25 PM # Q
I always seem to spell your name wrong. Please forgive me, DK. And please don't tell Marty who I am in case you already know. You wouldn't rat me out now would you, Sweetie? [TVoR imitating Sharon Stone talking to Arnie in "Total Recall"...]

------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

RE: Where's the Beef?
PenguinPowered @ 2/25/2006 11:36:38 PM # Q
As predicted, Skippy's just sick wannabe, a coward and an r crumb loser.

More insults, more braggadoccio from behind the mask, but in reality, nothing but cowardice.

Go ahead, Skip, post your email address here. I'll be happy to arrange a meeting with you. Better yet, post your own address. Coward.

Of course you won't. You don't have the guts. Never have had. Never will. P1ss your pants every time you even think about the possibility that someone might figure out who you are.

Maybe I'll drop by and say hello, next time I'm down your way. But I'll leave it to you to drum up enough courage to admit it in public.

Oh wait, I forgot. You don't have any courage.

Guess you'll be Skippy forever.

May You Live in Interesting Times

RE: Where's the Beef?
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 2/25/2006 11:43:05 PM # Q
As predicted, Skippy's just sick wannabe, a coward and an r crumb loser.

More insults, more braggadoccio from behind the mask, but in reality, nothing but cowardice.

The irony is KILLING me!

Go ahead, Skip, post your email address here. I'll be happy to arrange a meeting with you. Better yet, post your own address. Coward.

Why have you suddenly got so sensitive, Marty? Where's the trademark witty Martyspeak we all know and love?

Of course you won't. You don't have the guts. Never have had. Never will. P1ss your pants every time you even think about the possibility that someone might figure out who you are.

Oh dear.

Maybe I'll drop by and say hello, next time I'm down your way. But I'll leave it to you to drum up enough courage to admit it in public.

"Up" my way, Marty. Up. San Francisco is NORTH of Mountainview. Should I give you driving directions from your place to mine? It should take you aroung 45 minutes to get here.

Oh wait, I forgot. You don't have any courage.

Guess you'll be Skippy forever.

Wow. You. Really. Hurt. Me. Marty.

Let it go, Marty. Let it go. Take care.

TVoR


------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

where's waldo?
PenguinPowered @ 2/25/2006 11:56:09 PM # Q
San Francisco is north of Mountain View, Skippy. I was in the city a few hours ago. Drove down 280 to get home.

But that's not where I'd bother to visit you.

Much more fun to come down your way.

Coward.



May You Live in Interesting Times

Feeling better, Marty?
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 2/26/2006 4:09:46 AM # Q
San Francisco is north of Mountain View, Skippy. I was in the city a few hours ago. Drove down 280 to get home.

I probably passed you. It's a small world afterall. I'm surprised your house is so... modest, Marty. And the mall a block from your place must bring a lot of headaches for you and your neighbors.

But that's not where I'd bother to visit you.

Much more fun to come down your way.

You poor little sap. You have NO idea who I am or where I live. But by all means keep looking in the wrong direction. (San Jose, perhaps?) You're getting colder if the search for TVoR takes you that way.

Coward.

Oh dear. Looks like Mr. CrankyPants needs to chill out.

Your inability to let things go is your own undoing, Marty. Keep it up.


TVoR

------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

RE: Where's the Beef?
PenguinPowered @ 2/26/2006 4:42:46 AM # Q
Poor clueless Skippy.

There's no mall a block from my house. In this, as in so many things, you are, as usual, very wrong.

You're the lowest form of internet life, Skip, the anonymous coward. And no, I'm not calling you names. I'm describing what you are.

Post your own address, or, as you are so fond of saying, S.T.F.U

You won't, of course. If you did, people would find out about how pathetic you really are, living in your parents' basement and working that minimum wage job. They'd discover how many of your claims are just the sad lies of another in an endless parade of R Crumb losers.

But more than that, you don't have the guts to put your own name on your own words. Never had, never will.

And all because you'd lose that minimum wage job of yours if your employer knew how you behaved on the web.

That's right, Skippy. I know who you are, where you live, where you work, how little you make and the real reason you're afraid to admit in public who you are.

and no, Skippy, I'm not cranky, and I have no problem at all letting things go. I've just decided its time someone call you on your cowardice.

So, as we say where I came from, put up or shut up.

Coward.


May You Live in Interesting Times

Marty Fouts: p0Wn3d in public. The shame. The horror.
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 2/26/2006 2:33:46 PM # Q
Poor clueless Skippy.

Since "Poor clueless Skippy" just p0Wn3d your sorry a$$ and you have no idea who "Poor clueless Skippy" is, it appears you must be several notches BELOW "clueless" on the Clue Scale. "Brainless", perhaps?

There's no mall a block from my house. In this, as in so many things, you are, as usual, very wrong.

Then why are you suddenly freaking out here, Marty? You should have just let it go. I regret that hengeem perhaps took things a little too far with the clues I left (if you were in The City he could have posted a satellite photo of your house!), but Ryan quickly (and wisely) deleted the specific references. Feel free to deny everything as much as you want, little Buddy. I won't contradict you if it makes you feel better.

You're the lowest form of internet life, Skip, the anonymous coward. And no, I'm not calling you names. I'm describing what you are.

No, YOU'RE the lowest form of internet life, Marty: the pompous, smarta$$ blowhard. Over the past few months you have been receiving Lesson 1: You Are Not As Smart As You Think You Are. Unfortunately, you have yet to learn your lesson, Marty. Do you need remedial lessons? Let me know and I'll find a tutor for you. (Jeff "Puff Daddy" Kirvin might be available.)

Post your own address, or, as you are so fond of saying, S.T.F.U.

Why should I do that? As my conversations here with you have shown me, there are many sick, deranged, obsessive a-holes on the Internet. Just ask your former boss at PalmSource, David Schlesinger about the agony of being stalked relentlessly over the Internet for a decade by Lunktard. (I don't even WANT to know what Schlesinger did to pi$$ this guy off so much that he's dedicated the past decade to making Schlesinger's life a living HE11.)

Generally I would say it's not a good idea to post things on the Internet non-anonymously that may come back to embarass you when you GROW UP. People will just look at that sad train wreck known as Your Life, chuckle, and shake their heads while saying Allah akbar!, grateful that they are not YOU.

http://www.epinions.com/user-stonemirror
http://stonemirror.wordpress.com/
http://www.43things.com/person/stonemirror
http://www.stonemirror.net/
http://www.shugendo.org/marsupial/
http://www.shugendo.org/marsupial/Pages/pic_slurs.htm

You won't, of course. If you did, people would find out about how pathetic you really are, living in your parents' basement and working that minimum wage job. They'd discover how many of your claims are just the sad lies of another in an endless parade of R Crumb losers.

If you're going to lie about someone, at least make it plausible, Marty. Otherwise the only person your lie discredits is YOU. Do you really think ANYONE is going to believe anything you wrote above? Your recent rants have a panic-stricken quality about them, showing a side of you hitherto unseen. You're SO multifaceted, Marty. I think I LIKE Panicky Marty more than Smarmy Marty. I hope we see more of Panicky Marty in the future. Is there anthing I can do to encourage him to come out more in the future? I can't wait to see Panicky Marty finally prance OUT of the closet for good.

But more than that, you don't have the guts to put your own name on your own words. Never had, never will.

My words stand on their own merit, thankyouverymuch. Sould the musings of TVoR carry more or lees weight if you knew who I am? It should not matter.

Am I a 41 year old software company director living in Seacliff?
Am I a 16 year old child living in my parents' basement in Outer Richmond?
Am I a 36 year old graphic designer living in the Castro?
Am I a 27 year old receptionist living in the Mission?
Am I a 54 year old unemployed former manager at Palm living in Inner Sunset?
Am I a 63 year old investor living in Pacific Heights?

Who cares? If you feel what I have to say at Palminfocenter has value, read it and respond. If you feel my words are pure dreck, simply skip over my posts AND MOVE ON, MARTY. MOVE ON.

Dianne Hackborn is the ONLY person here who (might) know who I am, since my name is (probably) still in her cellphone. And If I know Dianne, she would NEVER tell you who I am even if you begged. But keep trying, Marty. We're all rooting for you, Buddy.

And all because you'd lose that minimum wage job of yours if your employer knew how you behaved on the web.

What exactly is that "minimum wage job of [mine]", Marty? I think somehow I'm not getting my checks! And do you feel that someone should be ashamed for earning minimum wage? I think ANYONE who works for minimum wage should be commended for working for a living when so many don't even try. The people working for minimum wage have pride and a quiet dignity that a dumba$$ codemonkey like you can never hope to achieve. And what is it about how I "behaved on the web" that would cause my "employer" to fire me from my "minimum wage job" if they saw that behaviour? Was it when I exposed you to be a pompous fraud working for PalmSource? Or was it when I destroyed poor David S. when he tried to go toe to toe with me? Or was it when I exposed the Palm Conspiracy? Inquiring minds want to know.

That's right, Skippy. I know who you are, where you live, where you work, how little you make and the real reason you're afraid to admit in public who you are.

OK, Marty. I admit it - you got me. I'm a 16 year old kid living in my parents' basement in Santa Cruz and I work for minimum wage at the Boardwalk selling hotdogs on the weekend. How did you figure it out? You're just TOO clever for me, Marty. And I would have gotten away with it too if it wasn't for those meddling kids and their blasted dog...

and no, Skippy, I'm not cranky, and I have no problem at all letting things go.

That's not how it appears to everone reading your posts, Marty.

I've just decided its time someone call you on your cowardice.

Sound's like there's gonna be a showdown at high noon... One of us won't be walking away from this alive, Marty. And his initials are M.F. (Mo Fo).

So, as we say where I came from, put up or shut up.

I've put plenty up. And now you're lying face down on the mat bleeding from several (all?) orifices. You got p0Wn3d, Marty. Admit it, cry a little, and MOVE ON.

Coward.

Bwahahahaha!

Oh, the humanity!!!


Take care,


TVoR
(Marty Fouts' OWNER)

**************************************************************************


I'm done with this nonsense. The referee should have stopped this before Marty suffered further brain damage. C'est la vie...


------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comments/7864/#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comments/8060/#111823

RE: Where's the Beef?
Admin @ 2/26/2006 4:45:45 PM # Q
This thread has convinced me how badly pic needs a "thread locking" mechanism.

Anyway, the comment displaying system is going to be much improved soon so stay tuned.

So can we please take a break here, call a truce and go back to talking about ALP.



-Ryan

RE: Where's the Beef?
twrock @ 2/26/2006 5:35:09 PM # Q
The referee should have stopped this....

One of the defining characteristics of adult development is an internal locus of control. But since that is apparently not forthcoming, I look forward to Ryan's efforts to bring some control to bear.

It might not be the "mythical color HandEra", but I'm liking my TX anyway.

RE: Where's the Beef?
stonemirror @ 2/26/2006 6:27:15 PM # Q
That'd be pleasant.

As things stand now, there's surely pretty minimal incentive for any folks who could actually answer questions or clarify misapprehensions to participate at all. Being subjected to inane personal abuse and having one's personal life invaded by noisy morons isn't really all that much of a draw.


RE: Where's the Beef?
PenguinPowered @ 2/26/2006 10:37:16 PM # Q
So can we please take a break here, call a truce and go back to talking about ALP

One doesn't call truces with anonymous cowards like Skippy, Ryan.

The web has become the cesspool it is because people like you run sites like this where behavior like that is allowed.

Besides, every time you smack Skippy into submission, it simply chills out for a few days until the next time it tries something else equally disgusting.


May You Live in Interesting Times

RE: Where's the Beef?
PenguinPowered @ 2/26/2006 10:42:29 PM # Q
But more than that, you don't have the guts to put your own name on your own words. Never had, never will.

My words stand on their own merit, thankyouverymuch.

That's typicall skippy bullpucky.

If your words were arguments about the topic at hand, that would be true, and anonymity reasonable.

But those aren't the words we're discussing here, Skippy. We're discussing your unreasonable intrusion into the personal lifes of those you argue with.

A coward stands behinds a mask and hurls insults of the sort you do. You wouldn't have the guts to behave that way if you knew that you could be responded to in kind, or held accountable for your behavior.

As I said, correctly, your employer would fire you if they knew what sort of stuff you are posting from their computers on their time.

You are the lowest form of life on the internet, Skippy.


May You Live in Interesting Times

RE: Where's the Beef?
PenguinPowered @ 2/26/2006 10:48:11 PM # Q
This thread has convinced me how badly pic needs a "thread locking" mechanism.

That's not enough Ryan. You'll just end up doing what you always do, which is to let Skippy become more and more abusive until finally even you think he's over the top.

By then, you've already done the damage to your site.

Left's right, you know. You are letting Skippy drive away precisely the people you want posting on your site.



May You Live in Interesting Times

RE: Where's the Beef?
Admin @ 2/26/2006 11:05:51 PM # Q
I'm in agreement with David. Things will start to improve once the new system is in place.
RE: Where's the Beef?
PenguinPowered @ 2/26/2006 11:43:43 PM # Q
Right. "improve". "in place".

and when will that be?

You can't solve a social problem with technology Ryan. Skippy's your mess. You created it by putting up with it for so long, and you're not going to clean it up with a new "system".



May You Live in Interesting Times

RE: Where's the Beef?
twrock @ 2/27/2006 12:15:00 AM # Q
Marty, I've got to admit, based on the history I don't have much faith either. But how about giving Ryan a "little" time? You (and I) just might be pleasantly surprised.

Ryan, (said with the best southern drawl I can muster) honestly sheriff, if you don't protect the decent folk in your town, they'll just move on to other parts. (And some of those who have moved on just get "lynched" in abstentia.)

Why did I ask you not to put my full name on the reviews I wrote? I concluded that I couldn't trust some of the members on this site from hitting below the belt, and I couldn't trust you to provide any protection from that. (Fortunately up to this point, no one has found me to be a big enough fish to fry to go looking for personal information and plaster it all over these pages.) I do like PIC, so I'm glad you've decided to do something about it. Here's hoping it will be effective.

It might not be the "mythical color HandEra", but I'm liking my TX anyway.

RE: Where's the Beef?
Admin @ 2/27/2006 1:03:07 AM # Q
I have put a lot of thought into this lately. I am developing a few new methods for moderation here. I think everyone here will be happy with it and you won't have to wait too long.

Do you guys remember what this place was like back when we still had anonymous comments? I think this transition will be as drastic as the improvement of when we required registration.

What the **** is going on here? Don't let the RATS fool you.
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 2/27/2006 1:15:07 AM # Q
As things stand now, there's surely pretty minimal incentive for any folks who could actually answer questions or clarify misapprehensions to participate at all. Being subjected to inane personal abuse and having one's personal life invaded by noisy morons isn't really all that much of a draw.

You're free to provide all the SPIN-free, B.S.-free info you want. Unfortunately, history has shown us that Palm/PalmSource employees are more interested in trying to cover up for their mistakes than they are answering questions HONESTLY.

One doesn't call truces with anonymous cowards like Skippy, Ryan.

Oh dear. Looks like you'll just never learn, Marty. Someday I hope you'll learn to back down before end up regretting it.

The web has become the cesspool it is because people like you run sites like this where behavior like that is allowed.

I'm amazed at the number of Palm Apologists that trash talk Palminfocenter yet still feel compelled to keep hanging around here stirring up the hornets nest. Then they go crying to their mommies when the hornets nest fall on them and they get stung. Go figure. Dumba$$es like you and Jeff Kirvin won't get any sympathy for your tragic plight, Marty. Bashing Ryan and making ridiculous demands is the familiar modus operandi of the sleazy Apologists that are attempting to bully Palminfocenter into falling in line with the other useless, treacle-soaked Palm sites. Your recent barrage of statements only shows how little class you have.

Besides, every time you smack Skippy into submission, it simply chills out for a few days until the next time it tries something else equally disgusting.

Tough talk from a little wuss, Marty. Try to be a bit more civil in your posts here in the future.

Take care,

TVoR



------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comments/7864/#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comments/8060/#111823

Keep up the good work, Marty. Bring censorship to PIC.
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 2/27/2006 1:37:27 AM # Q
>>>My words stand on their own merit, thankyouverymuch.

That's typicall skippy bullpucky.

If your words were arguments about the topic at hand, that would be true, and anonymity reasonable.

But those aren't the words we're discussing here, Skippy. We're discussing your unreasonable intrusion into the personal lifes of those you argue with.

A coward stands behinds a mask and hurls insults of the sort you do. You wouldn't have the guts to behave that way if you knew that you could be responded to in kind, or held accountable for your behavior.

As I said, correctly, your employer would fire you if they knew what sort of stuff you are posting from their computers on their time.

You are the lowest form of life on the internet, Skippy.

What "unreasonable intrusion into the personal lifes" are you talking about, Marty. That wasn't REALLY your home address that hengeem posted here, was it? You seemed to be saying that's not your address, so what on earth are you freaking out about? What did some bad person do to you that justifies your latest screed? Was it something you brought upon yourself?

By the way, Marty: since I am "[my] employer" somehow I doubt I'll be firing myself. Ooops! Can you please bring back "Smarmy Marty"? "Panicky Marty" is a bit of a dullard...

Right. "improve". "in place".

and when will that be?

You can't solve a social problem with technology Ryan. Skippy's your mess. You created it by putting up with it for so long, and you're not going to clean it up with a new "system".

Do you want the precise minute when the changes will occur, Marty? And if they're not to your liking, what are you going to do? Threaten to beat Ryan up? You are truly disgusting, Marty.

I have put a lot of thought into this lately. I am developing a few new methods for moderation here. I think everyone here will be happy with it and you won't have to wait too long.

Do you guys remember what this place was like back when we still had anonymous comments? I think this transition will be as drastic as the improvement of when we required registration.

I just hope you don't let the demands of 3 or 4 Palm Apologist bullies scare you into doing something that wrecks the site, Ryan. Taking away anonymous posting was a move that many of us feel took much of the fun and energy from Palminfocenter. We've already lost PalmStation and PDA Buzz. Brighthand and 1src are dead. And we've seen how heavyhanded moderation made a mess of Treocentral. If that's the way you want to take Palminfocenter, I wish you luck. Kowtowing to Palm will probably bring in some big advertising $$$, but at what cost?

I will move over to the sidelines and watch to see what happens. (Of course, silencing TVoR is PRECISELY what the Palm Apologists are hoping to accomplish with their repeated attacks on me...)

TVoR



------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comments/7864/#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comments/8060/#111823

RE: Where's the Beef?
AdamaDBrown @ 2/27/2006 2:22:20 AM # Q
The web has become the cesspool it is because people like you run sites like this where behavior like that is allowed.

I find it highly ironic that you screech so loudly about personal attacks and disagreements, and yet you feel free to open fire on Ryan and the way he runs his site over so trivial a perceived offense as not banning TVOR. I strongly advise that if you don't like it, you walk up to Ryan and ask for your money back. Or better yet, leave. Go found your own site where you can be as self-important as you want.

As far as I can see, Penguin, you haven't contributed nearly enough to this site to justify getting special protection against the big bad TVOR. While it would be nice if TVOR would rein it in once in awhile, I must note that it takes two to argue, and he wouldn't have anything to go on if you didn't feel the need to always try for the last word. So don't blame Ryan for failing to protect you from yourself.



RE: Where's the Beef?
stonemirror @ 2/27/2006 2:32:30 AM # Q
Do you guys remember what this place was like back when we still had anonymous comments?

I shudder to think.

Abusers of anonymity (and pseudonymity) do nothing but stifle discussion through abuse and attempted intimidation. Of course, pointing at someone's personal web site isn't terribly intimidating when they're the one who put it up there in the first place, as Dianne's noted elsewhere—if we felt we had things to hide, we'd probably be hiding 'em.

But it's telling that we hear the advice that one shouldn't "post things on the Internet non-anonymously that may come back to embarass you" from those who go to great lengths to preserve their own lack of accountability (since this sort of abuse really has nothing to do with anonymity). How more direct a statement of a desire to simply shut people down (at least if they're "non-anonymous", i.e. attackable) could there be?

Happily, I have nothing to hide or be embarassed by. But I wonder: We've already seen pictures of my family made fodder for "discussion" here. Where does it stop?

There's no reason to believe that those who think prying into areas of people's lives which have nothing whatsoever to do with Palm, PalmSource, Palm OS or anything or the sort would show any restraint at all in their attempts to halt discussion that wasn't going their way. Indeed, we've seen exactly the contrary.

Those who conflate accountability with censorship really want to have only one opinion expressed: their own. Anyone who disagrees is fair game for "embarassment" and abuse of all sorts, ranging from the wildly off-topic to the outright intrusive.

Only the government can censor. If someone doesn't like the demands a given printing press places on them, let 'em use a different one more to their liking.

RE: Where's the Beef?
freakout @ 2/27/2006 4:13:20 AM # Q
"Happily, I have nothing to hide or be embarassed by. But I wonder: We've already seen pictures of my family made fodder for "discussion" here. Where does it stop?"

I agree that that sort of thing is completely unacceptable. Perhaps there should be a tiny link at the bottom of every post to report the posting of personally identifying information (without consent).

However, I cannot agree that outright banning TVoR would make this site a better read. Maybe a moderation system *will* be a good idea. As long as I can leave it set to completely unfiltered, I'm happy.

(To play devil's advocate, I might also point out that moderation can occasionally drive people away when the community is not large enough to get a diverse range of modders, because the opinions will slant based on personal politics and not the content.)

Tim Carroll
Your friendly customer service robot
(and big Treo fan)

RE: Where's the Beef?
PenguinPowered @ 2/27/2006 4:33:33 AM # Q
Do you guys remember what this place was like back when we still had anonymous comments?

That would be now, Ryan. You still have anonymous comments.



May You Live in Interesting Times

RE: Where's the Beef?
PenguinPowered @ 2/27/2006 4:38:24 AM # Q
I find it highly ironic that you screech so loudly about personal attacks and disagreements, and yet you feel free to open fire on Ryan and the way he runs his site over so trivial a perceived offense as not banning TVOR.

No you don't. You're just trolling. But thanks for playing.

I strongly advise that if you don't like it, you walk up to Ryan and ask for your money back. Or better yet, leave. Go found your own site where you can be as self-important as you want.

Take your own advise. Everything you've suggested is far more fitting of yourself.

So don't blame Ryan for failing to protect you from yourself.

I don't. I blame Ryan for pretending to run a site where he wants his users to act as if they respect each other when he's doing no such thing.

If Ryan really wanted this site to ensure that sort of respect, he'd turn on IP logging, and include IP addresses with people's posts.

May You Live in Interesting Times

RE: Where's the Beef?
PenguinPowered @ 2/27/2006 4:46:28 AM # Q
No, Skippy, you're not self-employed; er, maybe your employer finally caught you and you are? Do you think you can find another help desk job?

No, Skippy, this ain't about censorship -- that's yet another one of your bullcrap smoke screens. It's about demanding that a web site run at higher standards of civility than a sixth grade playground. As far as I'm concerned, you can try to make any case you want about the subject at hand, so long as you grow up and join the adult conversation.

But then, Skippy, that's the whole problem, isn't it. You so often find yourself, as you were at the start of this debacle, in a position where you have no case. So you make a personal attack instead. Did a fine job of distracting everyone from what a fool you were making of yourself over Chinese business.

Something you only do because you believe that no one can retaliate. You're a coward, Skippy.

You don't have the courage to insult people the way you do, except through the belief that no one knows who you are, so there'll be no consequences.

Well, if Ryan had any brass, this time there would be, and he'd ban you, say for six months.



May You Live in Interesting Times

RE: Where's the Beef?
PenguinPowered @ 2/27/2006 4:57:53 AM # Q
Tim,

You're trying to have it both ways. If it's completely unacceptable, than don't accept it. There are two solutions to people like Skippy. Either you ban them because they won't grow up, or you change your site's rules so that they can't post anonymously, and are forced to be accountable for their juvenile delinquency.

Ryan should do away with anonymous posting. That will answer any claims Skippy has about being 'censored', because he'll be free to post all he wants. And it'll put him on the same level of accountability as everyone else.

Having watched the Skippys of the internet destroy more than a few forums, and having seen just about every imaginable attempt to use technology to control them, I have come to the conclusion that that is the only way to keep a site civilized but uncensored.



May You Live in Interesting Times

Say what!?
SeldomVisitor @ 2/27/2006 5:59:37 AM # Q
> ...I regret that hengeem perhaps took things a little too far
> with the clues I left (if you were in The City he could have
> posted a satellite photo of your house!..."

Ahem - someone posts a complete street address, "obscuring" it by removing some letters of only one word (e.g., "smith" ==> "sXXXh"), and literally nothing more, and they don't think THEY are the ones who "took things a little far"!?

It took me maybe 5 minutes to find the ONE street in Mountain View that pattern-matched your "obscured" word - and I live 3000 miles away in Virginia with almost literally NO knowledge about Mountain View!

Furthermore, I haven't the FAINTEST idea who you or P-etc are other than a couple (very) remote posters who occasionally (getting less occasionally!) post useful interesting PALM-etc-specific posts!

> ...That wasn't REALLY your home address that hengeem posted
> here, was it?...

Gack!

Hmmm...YOU said it wasn't!

== "...That's not Marty's real address, Ryan..."

-- http://www.palminfocenter.com/comments/8399/#119460

Sheesh.

RE: Where's the Beef?
freakout @ 2/27/2006 6:35:24 AM # Q
"Ryan should do away with anonymous posting... I have come to the conclusion that that is the only way to keep a site civilized but uncensored."

I be cool with dat, yo. ;) But then what do you do when there's someone who may want to post inside information but doesn't wish to reveal their identity? Downsides to everything...

On accountability: I see TVoR as a fictional character, invented by someone with an extremely sadistic sense of humour - be they a 15-year-old in the basement or some help desk worker or web columnist or Diane Hackborn's ex-bitch or whoever/whatever the hell he/she is. You'll never be able to believe what it says (I use 'it' 'cause who can tell gender on the net?) or take anything it says seriously 'cause it chooses to remain anonymous. As such, opinions from people like yourself will always be given a little more weight by readers like myself because you're a real person.

Keep that in mind before you give it precisely what it wants - an argument. And enjoy reading the conspiracy theories that are so damn out-there they just might be true. Or just skip past them. None of us are taking TVoR words as gospel. Merely enjoying them, 'cause its posts are quite well-crafted.

I agree that posting personally identifying information without consent is wrong. Immediate deletion of such content and a three-strikes (or two, I'm not fussy) rule should apply.

Tim Carroll
Your friendly customer service robot
(and big Treo fan)

RE: Where's the Beef?
Surur @ 2/27/2006 7:51:57 AM # Q

Speaking as one of the few people ever banned by Ryan (I forgot what about now, I think for abusing some HTML loopholes on the board or something) and who was very upset afterward, I have come to appreciate the open discourse on this board, and appreciate that Ryan is an even handed person who does not hold grudges. He comes over as a good person who has built a successful, enduring web site. New comers complain, but if they dont like the way it works they can start their own web site, and see if it last 7 years.

Instead of a moderation system, which will suppress MOST opposing views (e.g. WM sales numbers ;) ) I suggest a much better solution would be more moderators on the front page, who would remove particularly offensive posts, after some-one complains. This is a much more open system, and if the moderators remain accountable would be much less disruptive to the free atmosphere here.

Regarding the PSRC employees that complain about being abused:
a) you are a special case, I am personally surprised you dont get pelted with rotten tomatoes in the street for the way you messed up the Garnet/Cobalt transition.
b) a good case can be made that you should NEVER post on a POS orientated public board, unless approved by your PR person.

I therefore dont think you deserve special protection. As my web page says :

Try PalmInfocenter for great, free and open conversation about the real issues.

http://surur.sytes.net/

If you want boring conformity, try 1src.com. I'm sure their traffic needs the infusing of expert PSRC insider opinion much more.

Surur

They said I only argued for the sake of arguing, but after an hour I convinced them they were wrong...

RE: Where's the Beef?
Surur @ 2/27/2006 8:24:04 AM # Q

I just wanted to expand on my opposition to PSRC employees posting, and especially then complaining about being abused.

When company employees post on a business related web site anonymously (as Penguinpowered and Stonemirror tried to do) its called astroturfing. Its generally viewed as a dishonest practice. This is because you will never hear them saying bad things about the company, and they therefore give a one sided perspective.

Even when exposed, you can still not expect to hear anything useful from them, as they are unlikely to admit to faults by their company. For an example of how this happens in practice for non-PSRC employees, one only have to look at Heather Cullen from Palm's post, and how they get received on the Brighthand and 1src forums.

So, in short, you will never hear an fully honest opinion from a company employee on a public board, and therefore I have very little sympathy for them being abused.

Surur

They said I only argued for the sake of arguing, but after an hour I convinced them they were wrong...

RE: Where's the Beef?
hkklife @ 2/27/2006 9:24:03 AM # Q
While I will go on record on saying that sometimes TVoR DOES indeed go too much over the top, he/she/it is also one of the main attractions on PIC. While I can empathize somewhat with the current/ex PSRC staffers, it is also true that they've felt compelled to post little of redeeming value other than defending themselves time and time again while lashing out at the Voice. I thought last week's thread on ALP runng on the Haier handset was one of the most engaging and relatively floatsam-free discussions on PIC in a while--I'd like to see more like that.

Something else to remember is that Voice's posts are, first of all, ALWAYS tongue in cheek. Anyone who cannot see that needs to lighten up and realize that it's just a website about PDAs & mobile tech, not a court of law or the front page of the Times. It's also obviously that these are not the disjointed, barely-literate ramblings of a 15 year old. Pay closer attention and you'll see it's a person with at least a foot in the door of the industry and a bone to pick with the Palm companies. No teenager could speak about the OS development, the "biz", the SFO "scene", BDSM, Japanese sexxx culture, and drop pop culture references in the course of a single post like he/she/it does!

Addtionally, as Tim said, Voice's posts are always exceedingly ENTERTAINING, well-written, and grammatically and syntactically correct--regardless of actual content. That, (TO ME) makes for exceedingly compelling/thought-provoking content, especially on a boring Friday afterooon in the dead of winter. In this day and age, ESPECIALLY on the 'net, such maturity is be commended. So I guess I am in the minority in preferring to read well-written, well-argued bits of toilet humor instad of slang-filled "fanb0i" rah-rah cheerleading.

Since PIC is a "anonymnity by scree name" free site, I think no one can complain TOO loudly-but some moderation would probably be in the best interest for the general concensus of Ryan and the site. For the time being, those scorned can always just stop posting under their current nicknames and renew under a different moniker. Or they could start posting in the forums, which are a DECIDEDLY tamer place. Interestingly enough, most of PIC's traffic is split between "front page people" and "forums people". Few users frequently post in both sections.

TreoCentral is as silly and pointless as any web forums I've ever seen. 1src is bland, bland, bland, and impossibly redundant. Brighthand has become a pathetic collection of a handful of "me too" high'n mighty types who force their own apologetic stance down everyone. The hailstorm of criticism unleasehed when I "broke" the LifeDrive's inadequacies and Palm's intentional CDMA Bluetooth crippling brought out the lynch mob at BH ad they haven't settled down since.

I am looking forward to Ryan's improved "system" with a mixture of trepidation and anticipation. And again, it's JUST a PDA news site. Everyone try to take a deep breath and start the week off to a better foot.

Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5-->TX

RE: Where's the Beef?
stonemirror @ 2/27/2006 10:23:47 AM # Q
I therefore dont think you deserve special protection.

I'm not looking for "special" protection. I don't believe that posting people's (no matter where they work) home addresses, family photos, and abusing them in the basest possible terms is reasonable, and there's no provocation that can justify it, not even your heart-rending disappointment over Garnet and Cobalt. If you can't recognize the difference between free discourse and unrestrained abuse, that's going to cut down on your social life.

I don't mind discussing things, but none of what I've described above is discussion: as I said, it's a cheap attempt to intimidate people and stifle discussion.

Please don't suggest that this sort of nonsense is limited to those of us who work for PalmSource, either—David Beers, among others, receives treatment which is just as deplorable. In fact, anyone who takes issue with your little agendae receives much the same treatment, so it's not about working for PalmSource, it's more about failing to endorse the views of those who see any means to shut up those who disagree as "fair game".

Contrary to your claims, I have also never posted "anonymously" here--I've been clear from my first posting about whom I work for and what I did there.

The bottom line is that as long as off-topic abuse and invasion of privacy are the norm here, then there's no incentive to contribute anything substantial. And Palm Infocenter will become the place where you can read about it all second- or third-hand, after the news has been published at Linux Devices, Computing Unplugged, or someplace else.

This has nothing to do with beef
Admin @ 2/27/2006 12:34:35 PM # Q
I think you will be pleasantly surprised with the new system.

Again, I will not be banning or censoring anyone. And by no means am I going to go big brother and start including IP address and SSN #'s on each post.

Basically the new system will involve adding more human intervention in moderating (its just been me on the articles the past 4-5 years) and a new karma system.

-Ryan

RE: Where's the Beef?
PenguinPowered @ 2/27/2006 1:13:11 PM # Q
Something else to remember is that Voice's posts are, first of all, ALWAYS tongue in cheek.

B. S. Skippy's a mean little punk, and deliberately abusive.


Anyone who cannot see that needs to lighten up and realize that it's just a website about PDAs & mobile tech, not a court of law or the front page of the Times.

It's also not a 6th grade playground. If you want skippy-style 'entertainment' the web is full of porn sites you can pursue.

It's also obviously that these are not the disjointed, barely-literate ramblings of a 15 year old.

Nope. they're the ramblings of a 15 year old who has read too much r crumb and mad magazine and spent too much time in the 'adult' part of the web.

Pay closer attention and you'll see it's a person with at least a foot in the door of the industry and a bone to pick with the Palm companies.

I've paid close attention. I've yet to see Skippy say something intelligent about the industry that someone else hadn't posted here first.

You're confusing a skill at cold reading with an understanding of the industry.

No teenager could speak about the OS development, the "biz", the SFO "scene", BDSM, Japanese sexxx culture, and drop pop culture references in the course of a single post like he/she/it does!

You don't seem to know many teenagers.



May You Live in Interesting Times

RE: Where's the Beef?
PenguinPowered @ 2/27/2006 1:17:52 PM # Q
Basically the new system will involve adding more human intervention in moderating

Won't work, and you know it. moderation systems only work if no article ever makes it to the web before it's read and approved by moderators and you don't have the resources or willingness to do that.

and a new karma system.

Given the responses this thread's getting, a karma system is the fastest possible to turn this place into nothing but a cesspool.



May You Live in Interesting Times

RE: Where's the Beef?
PenguinPowered @ 2/27/2006 1:21:30 PM # Q
But then what do you do when there's someone who may want to post inside information but doesn't wish to reveal their identity?

That one's easy. They email it to Ryan, he vettes it, and it gets posted by him as a rumor.

It's a lot less work for Ryan than real moderation is.

May You Live in Interesting Times

RE: Where's the Beef?
Admin @ 2/27/2006 1:24:54 PM # Q
Marty, now what kind of programmer thinks problems can't be solved with software?
RE: Where's the Beef?
PenguinPowered @ 2/27/2006 1:25:08 PM # Q
I suggest a much better solution would be more moderators on the front page, who would remove particularly offensive posts, after some-one complains.

Doesn't work. That's more or less what's going on now, with the bonus that Ryan tries hard to notice offensive posts and get them off before anyone complains.

Try PalmInfocenter for great, free and open conversation about the real issues.

Free and open conversation is a fine thing. I'm all for it. But childish behavior like Skippy's does more to squash conversation than moderation ever does. Not everyone comes to the internet with an asbestoes suit, and Skippy's taunting drives away people who don't want to put up with the abuse.

You do a fine job of representing an opposing point of view without it. All I'm asking is that everyone who posts here be held to the standard Ryan claims he believes in.


May You Live in Interesting Times

RE: Where's the Beef?
AdamaDBrown @ 2/27/2006 1:25:45 PM # Q
No you don't. You're just trolling. But thanks for playing.

You were saying something about maintaining civility and open discourse, I believe?

I tried to say it nicely, but since you were so rude, I'll rephrase: you can either accept the modifications Ryan decides to make, or you can go away. It's his site, and his decision.

Yo! Get your beef right HERE, Baby!
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 2/27/2006 1:26:57 PM # Q
>>>Do you guys remember what this place was like back when we still had anonymous comments?

I shudder to think.

Please. Enough with the angst-filled teen drama queen routine, Mr. Schlesinger. It doesn't suit a Crowley Kiddie like you.

Abusers of anonymity (and pseudonymity) do nothing but stifle discussion through abuse and attempted intimidation. Of course, pointing at someone's personal web site isn't terribly intimidating when they're the one who put it up there in the first place, as Dianne's noted elsewhere—if we felt we had things to hide, we'd probably be hiding 'em.

So what exactly is your beef. Ms Hackborn's site and your sites ar up on the Internet for all to stare at in amazement. My linking to your site hardly constitutes "attempted intimidation". I'm starting to see why this Lunktard individual too a major disliking to you. You probably DESERVE everything he's done to you.

But it's telling that we hear the advice that one shouldn't "post things on the Internet non-anonymously that may come back to embarass you" from those who go to great lengths to preserve their own lack of accountability (since this sort of abuse really has nothing to do with anonymity). How more direct a statement of a desire to simply shut people down (at least if they're "non-anonymous", i.e. attackable) could there be?

I'm going to have to put that paragraph through an online translator to try and decode it.

Happily, I have nothing to hide or be embarassed by. But I wonder: We've already seen pictures of my family made fodder for "discussion" here. Where does it stop?

Actually, you have PLENTY to be embarassed by, starting with that hideous maw. When were pictures of your family "made fodder for "discussion" here?

There's no reason to believe that those who think prying into areas of people's lives which have nothing whatsoever to do with Palm, PalmSource, Palm OS or anything or the sort would show any restraint at all in their attempts to halt discussion that wasn't going their way. Indeed, we've seen exactly the contrary.

Huh??? "in their attempts to halt discussion that wasn't going their way"??? You've GOTTA be kidding me.

Those who conflate accountability with censorship really want to have only one opinion expressed: their own. Anyone who disagrees is fair game for "embarassment" and abuse of all sorts, ranging from the wildly off-topic to the outright intrusive.

No, David. You need to get a grip on reality here. You and Marty storm into Palminfocenter with your sarcastic, rude attitude, spew B.S. like how a failed Kyocera smartphone outsold all Windows Mobile phones and expect to receive respect just because yo work(ed) for PalmSource? Puh-lease. If you wanted to contribute facts and helpful discussion, you could have. Instead, you came here looking for a fight, thinking you could show the world how clever you (think you) are. But when you got your a$$ handed to you in a sling, suddenly you cry "foul" and go running off to Ryan bawling. Tough T|T's, Schlesinger. Suck it in, get off the floor, wipe the blood off your nose/face/a$$ and MOVE ON. Given your history, your indignance is LAUGHABLE.

Only the government can censor.

Are you SURE about that, Bubba?

If someone doesn't like the demands a given printing press places on them, let 'em use a different one more to their liking.

Then why don't you remind us why you're still here? If the rules are SO offensive to you at Palminfocenter, why do you keep responding to posts here? Bizarre.




------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comments/7864/#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comments/8060/#111823

RE: Where's the Beef?
PenguinPowered @ 2/27/2006 1:33:56 PM # Q
Marty, now what kind of programmer thinks problems can't be solved with software?

The good kind. One who reconizes the difference between a social problem and a technical problem.

I've been around the internet for 23 years, Ryan, and I've seen just about every imaginable attempt to use software to solve social problems.

Here's how karma systems usually work out in this environment: The people who read purely for puerile entertainment give a lot of karma to the people who entertain them. The people who are trying to participate in a civilized conversation go away. More people notice your forum is a home of puerile entertainment and they come to it for that. Some of them think they're good at it to, and you get more Skippys. More Skippys, more Skippy fans, and fewer people interested in a civil conversation.

If you're really lucky, (IE, I've never seen it happen,) you get a lot of puerile entertainment for an audience that enjoys it.

But, typically, what you end up with is a lot of boring potty mouths slinging stupid insults at each other.

It's your site, and I'll be the first to admit that the easiest way to draw eyeballs on the internet is to allow puerile behavior to thrive, so do what you want.

But if you really wanted a site where the players respect each other and conversation thrives, then you have to ban puerile behavior as soon as it starts.

Well, it doesn't have to be a ban. You could introduce the one thing that works in the real world to keep the Skippys behaving: peer pressure. But you won't do that, because you continue to allow annoymous posting by people like Skippy.

At this point, Ryan, since you won't unmask anonymous posters, and you won't ban Skippy, even temporarily, you're just setting yourself up to turn PIC into Skippy central.

Do you really want the front page to turn into nothing more than a Skippy/Lefty insulting contest with a bunch of fanbois cheering each of them on?



May You Live in Interesting Times

RE: Where's the Beef?
stonemirror @ 2/27/2006 1:41:04 PM # Q
...it's JUST a PDA news site.

No. It stops being "JUST a PDA news site" as soon as people's home addresses, personal photographs, friends, relatives, etc., get reduced to tools used by those invested in a personal lack of accountability to stifle the viewpoints of others. Neither Marty's home address nor my personal photos have any relevance to "PDA news".

Surur wins quote of the day
Admin @ 2/27/2006 1:44:08 PM # Q
Regarding the PSRC employees that complain about being abused:
a) you are a special case, I am personally surprised you dont get pelted with rotten tomatoes in the street for the way you messed up the Garnet/Cobalt transition.

Brilliant, LOL!

RE: Where's the Beef?
cervezas @ 2/27/2006 1:44:59 PM # Q
it's JUST a PDA news site

I've found PIC doesn't have any news that you can't get from MobileRead, LinuxDevices and Google Alerts, so that's hardly a reason to hang around here. The times when there is discussion about PDA news that's insightful or entertaining to grown-ups are rare enough that regulars like hkklife express surprise when they happen.

I used to think that people who have earned a good living from the Palm OS platform owed it to the platform to present knowledgable viewpoints on PIC--PIC because, for all its problems, it was still the de facto place folks go for Palm-related news. A few weeks back I was having dinner with a bunch of Palm developers from around the Chicago area. The conversation turned to the state of Palm Infocenter and one guy I respect a lot turned to me with an incredulous expression on his face and said "How do you do it? I mean, how can you post there?" The consensus among the dozen or so folks who sat at that table (many of whose names would be known to readers here) was that a professional developer would have to be stupid to talk about anything of substance on Palm Infocenter. Sadly--and with some embarrassment that it took me this long--I'm forced to agree.

I plan to spend a lot less time here in the future.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: Where's the Beef?
PenguinPowered @ 2/27/2006 1:54:34 PM # Q
You and Marty storm into Palminfocenter with your sarcastic, rude attitude, spew B.S.

Actually, Skippy, I never stormed in, I wasn't sarcastic until you started behaving like an ass, and you have not once shown anything I've written her to be B.S.

like how a failed Kyocera smartphone outsold all Windows Mobile phones

How skippy of you. "You and Marty" never said that Skippy. I have never made any claim on the topic.

and expect to receive respect just because yo work(ed) for PalmSource?

Oh, dear. How quickly Skippy forgets. I tried to obscure the fact that I worked for PSRC because I wanted my statements to stand on their own merits. You, ironically for such a fan of anonymity, wouldn't let that stand and made a big deal of who I was.

Puh-lease. If you wanted to contribute facts and helpful discussion, you could have.

I did, Skippy. I pointed out a bunch of mistakes in claims you were making. As soon as you realized that you'd been caught out, instead of acting like an adult, you descended into sarcastic, rude behavior. Just as you did in this thread.

You're a coward, Skippy, and a liar, and I for one, can find nothing 'tongue-in-cheek' or entertaining about the post I'm responding to. Nor, I doubt, will your fanbois. So on top of everything else, you're slipping.



May You Live in Interesting Times

RE: Where's the Beef?
Foo Fighter @ 2/27/2006 1:55:50 PM # Q
> "Given the responses this thread's getting, a karma system is the fastest possible to turn this place into nothing but a cesspool."

I'm not quite sure what you mean by a "Karma system" but if it's anything resembling a framework that enables readers to vote negative or positive to a person's comments, then I STRONGLY disagree. The general flaw with that scheme is that it unfairly allows ANYONE to vote against your post for ANY reason. Regardless of what merits your opinion may have. That places power where it doesn't belong; to the zealots. For example, if I posted a comment critical of the numerous flaws the Treo 650 has, Treo fans would come out of the woodwork and immediately "vote down" my post giving me low Karma, simply because they don't want negative comments spoken about their beloved device. Is that fair?

To put it a more colorful way, a Karma system creates a McCarthy-like environment, fostering an atmosphere of "say nice things about the Republic or you'll be voted a communist!". This is an enthusiast community, not a lynch mob. No one should be punished for their opinions, or for simply having one that differs from the mainstream.

-------------------------------
Editor, http://Pocketfactory.com

What a Mad Cow you are...
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 2/27/2006 1:58:39 PM # Q
>>>Do you guys remember what this place was like back when we still had anonymous comments?

That would be now, Ryan. You still have anonymous comments.


Gee, Marty. Aren't you posting anonymously NOW?

And isn't David Schesinger also anonymous?

How about when you first showed up here in a blaze of FUD, SPIN, insults and smarmy behaviour? Remember this?:

http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111597

http://www.palminfocenter.com/comments/8060/#111664

TVoR




------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comments/7864/#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comments/8060/#111823

new comment features coming soon
Admin @ 2/27/2006 2:00:08 PM # Q
I don't know how many times I have to say it in this thread, but I have seen the light. I am very serious now about changing the tone and making PIC a friendlier place to post.

The whole comments system is being reprogrammed as we speak. You will be able to choose if you want the unfiltered "no holds barred PIC romper room" or the "respectful engaging mobile discussions PIC" in your profile. By default, the news articles will show the latter.

RE: Where's the Beef?
PenguinPowered @ 2/27/2006 2:08:41 PM # Q
Ryan,

That's a pretty dim 'light' you've seen. "I'm not going to do anything about the cesspool I'm letting this site become, I'm just going to let some posters not notice it."

So Skippy will still be able to anonymously post over-the-top nonsense, but it's ok, because if I have your "blinders" on, I won't notice him posting my email address for the spam harvesters to reap.

No, you haven't seen "the light." Either the site is no-holds-barred or it is civilized. there's no such thing as no-holds-barred through rose colored glasses.

So why don't you save yourself the programming effort and simply admit that you want a cesspool?


May You Live in Interesting Times

RE: Where's the Beef?
stonemirror @ 2/27/2006 2:09:56 PM # Q
I note that "moving to the sidelines" fell by the wayside pretty quickly. I also note that "pelting Palmsource employees with rotten tomatoes in the street" seems to be the sanctioned approach here.

Okay, I gave it a shot.

Good luck with the new comments system, Ryan, but if "romper room" (including invasive, abusive and off-topic personal attacks) is going to continue to be an "option", I expect I'll be giving it a miss...

A typical Beersy comment
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 2/27/2006 2:19:51 PM # Q
I've found PIC doesn't have any news that you can't get from MobileRead, LinuxDevices and Google Alerts, so that's hardly a reason to hang around here. The times when there is discussion about PDA news that's insightful or entertaining to grown-ups are rare enough that regulars like hkklife express surprise when they happen.

Beersy, why do you feel the need to come here, bash Ryan and Palminfocenter, promote your business and your pathetic blog and REPEATEDLY state how you feel other sites are better than Palminfocenter? To be honest, anyone that behaves like that is a BIGGER a-hole than ska ever was. Seriously. You're a total hypocrite, Beersy. If you had any class, you would have just left quietly and sent Ryan a private email outlining why you were no longer going to contribute here.

I plan to spend a lot less time here in the future.

Thanks for sharing. Marbe you can put up a blog entry (Kirvin-style) ranting about how much you HATE Palminfocenter. As usual, you make a big production about what you're going to do - as if it matters. Wake up, Beersy - we're talking about PDAs - not the threat of nuclear war. Get a little perspective, Bubba.

TVoR




------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comments/7864/#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comments/8060/#111823

RE: Where's the Beef?
PenguinPowered @ 2/27/2006 2:20:03 PM # Q
Gee, Marty. Aren't you posting anonymously NOW?

That's tongue-in-cheek, and meant to be entertaining, huh Skippy?

Consider me entertained.

Coward.


May You Live in Interesting Times

Marty, Schlesinger + Beersy to form Hypocrisyinfocenter?
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 2/27/2006 2:30:02 PM # Q
I note that "moving to the sidelines" fell by the wayside pretty quickly.

I'll step aside as soon as people like you stop bashing me, Ryan and Palminfocenter. You're like a "brave" mangy cur yapping from the distance when the sun goes down, Mr. Schlesinger. You owe us all an apology for your obnoxious behaviour. The fact that you're one of the main people responsible for the future of PalmOS is truly disappointing.

TVoR

Sex, Lies and Videotape
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 2/27/2006 2:37:11 PM # Q
Neither Marty's home address nor my personal photos have any relevance to "PDA news".

Marty says that wasn't his home address. Are you calling him a LIAR? Shocking.

TVoR



------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comments/7864/#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comments/8060/#111823

RE: Where's the Beef?
Surur @ 2/27/2006 2:40:52 PM # Q

I think the "impending cesspool" comment is a bit overdone. VOR has been on this web site many years. You can not pretend this is a upstart web site that needs fixing before it goes down the wrong road.

Stop catastrophizing. This isn't like Cobalt in 2003!

David, like Slashdot, this website isn't about breaking news, its about the discussion surrounding it. If you just want news (and kitties) try PalmAddict.

Surur

They said I only argued for the sake of arguing, but after an hour I convinced them they were wrong...

Keep up the mendacity, Marty
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 2/27/2006 2:41:11 PM # Q
>>>You and Marty storm into Palminfocenter with your sarcastic, rude attitude, spew B.S.

Actually, Skippy, I never stormed in, I wasn't sarcastic until you started behaving like an ass, and you have not once shown anything I've written her to be B.S.

Sure, Marty. Blame ME for your behaviour.

>>>like how a failed Kyocera smartphone outsold all Windows Mobile phones

How skippy of you. "You and Marty" never said that Skippy. I have never made any claim on the topic.

We know, Marty. I have said before that Schlesinger's actions were inexcusable. And he has yet to admit he lied. Or apologize.

>>>and expect to receive respect just because you work(ed) for PalmSource?

Oh, dear. How quickly Skippy forgets. I tried to obscure the fact that I worked for PSRC because I wanted my statements to stand on their own merits. You, ironically for such a fan of anonymity, wouldn't let that stand and made a big deal of who I was.

No, Marty. You tried to hide who you were so you could Astroturf at Palminfocenter. Period. Pretending otherwise is a perfect example of your utter MENDACITY. I found your actions sleazy, and so I "outed" you - just as I would "out" ANYONE I knew had a hidden agenda and was trying to manipulate readers. Mr. Mace was legendary for trying to use the so-called "street cred" of being a PalmSource employee to manipulate those who thought he was trustworthy. That's truly odious and should not be tolerated.

>>>Puh-lease. If you wanted to contribute facts and helpful discussion, you could have.

I did, Skippy. I pointed out a bunch of mistakes in claims you were making. As soon as you realized that you'd been caught out, instead of acting like an adult, you descended into sarcastic, rude behavior. Just as you did in this thread.

Nonsense, Marty. You lack the ability to know when you're wrong or to concede defeat in a debate. Re-read the threads in question and it becomes obvious that you need to rethink how you conduct yourself online.

You're a coward, Skippy, and a liar, and I for one, can find nothing 'tongue-in-cheek' or entertaining about the post I'm responding to. Nor, I doubt, will your fanbois. So on top of everything else, you're slipping.

Not everything I say is a joke, Marty. The fact that you lack the ability to discern obvious humor from a serious post is not surprising. Your constant name-calling speaks for itself. As usual, though, I will not reduce myself to your level. And as usual, you have LOST this debate. Congratulations. We have some nice parting gifts for you as you exit stage left.

TVoR




------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comments/7864/#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comments/8060/#111823

Where's the Straight Answer?
stonemirror @ 2/27/2006 2:51:21 PM # Q
...its about the discussion surrounding it...

Here's a straight question: do you believe that posting personal information, pointers to personal photos (not excluding pictures of family members, with attendant abusive commentary), references to non-PDA related personal web sites, sexual invective directed against family members, free-floating personal invective and the like constitute "discussion"?

That's what I'm talkin' about!
—Jason Mewes as "Jay" in Dogma


Well said, Surur
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 2/27/2006 3:04:34 PM # Q
I just wanted to expand on my opposition to PSRC employees posting, and especially then complaining about being abused.

When company employees post on a business related web site anonymously (as Penguinpowered and Stonemirror tried to do) its called astroturfing. Its generally viewed as a dishonest practice. This is because you will never hear them saying bad things about the company, and they therefore give a one sided perspective.

Even when exposed, you can still not expect to hear anything useful from them, as they are unlikely to admit to faults by their company. For an example of how this happens in practice for non-PSRC employees, one only have to look at Heather Cullen from Palm's post, and how they get received on the Brighthand and 1src forums.

So, in short, you will never hear an fully honest opinion from a company employee on a public board, and therefore I have very little sympathy for them being abused.

Astroturfing is as sleazy as it gets. If Palm/PalmSource employees had simply been HONEST in their posts and not hidden who they were, they would have been treated with respect. The ONLY Palm/PalmSource employee that deserved any respect here was Dianne Hackborn, and she was guilty of a fair amount of Astroturfing as well.

If David Schlesinger or any other PalmSource wants to contribute to Palminfocenter, no one is stopping them from doing so. As a show of good faith (and to make up for his previous juvenile behaviour), perhaps Mr. Schlesinger would be willing to participate in a MODERATED Question and Answer session with Palminfocenter readers. As long as he leaves the smarta$$ replies and toddler level Japanese quoting at home...

TVoR


------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comments/7864/#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comments/8060/#111823

RE: Where's the Beef?
Surur @ 2/27/2006 3:05:09 PM # Q
do you believe that posting personal information, pointers to personal photos (not excluding pictures of family members, with attendant abusive commentary), references to non-PDA related personal web sites, sexual invective directed against family members, free-floating personal invective and the like constitute "discussion"?

When VOR is involved the discussion seems to flow that way :)

I know its distasteful, but without VOR this would be one very boring web site. There's too many such websites around at the moment. PIC still gets 50 comments to a story (most off topic) Most other POS websites are lucky to get 10.

Surur


They said I only argued for the sake of arguing, but after an hour I convinced them they were wrong...

RE: Where's the Beef?
hkklife @ 2/27/2006 3:21:21 PM # Q
Agreed, Surur makes a great point. Why doesn't the near-mythical Heather Cullen come on over to PIC and field some REAL questions instead of suggesting that someone reinstall their Palm Desktop CD or make sure their USB connector is securely attached? Or, as Voice says with Lefty addressing the "hard" questions for Access/PalmSourcecan, I'd love for someone from Palm to actually take a crack at some of the pressing issues vexing the dwindling #'s of Palm faithful (crippled BT stacks, MIA G1, LifeDrive lag/random resets, Treo 650 voice quality issues etc)

As bad as "official" Palm stance is, you're not likely to find much better response on Treocentral, BH or 1src to the "nitty gritty" issues. Frustration is guaranteed ESPECIALLY if you try to do something the "hard working" regulars there deem not in line with Palm's intended usage (CDMA cell phone connectivity, for example).

Even fairly advanced/experienced POS users such as myself are basically left to their own devices these days, what with software updates vanishing daily, Palm's always underwhelming outsourced tech support and this "good ol' boy" Apologist Allegiance system in place on the remaining major web sites/forums (BH, 1src etc). Basically, if your technical prowness isn't up to the standards of Shadowmite or Dmitry Grinberg you're kinda SOL these days. I'd personally like to see PIC evolve more to a news/reviews/biz oriented site and another site evolved to allow for some serious technical support & advice instead od constantly trying to spin "It's a feature, not a bug".

Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5-->TX

RE: Where's the Beef?
stonemirror @ 2/27/2006 3:31:53 PM # Q
I know its distasteful, but...PIC still gets 50 comments to a story (most off topic) Most other POS websites are lucky to get 10.

Well then, there's really no incentive for me to participate here, this being the case. The downside seems to considerably outweigh any possible upside.

So, when I do participate in a "MODERATED Question and Answer session", I don't expect it'll be with PalmInfoCenter readers, sorry.

'New & Improved'? We'll see...
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 2/27/2006 3:32:13 PM # Q
While I will go on record on saying that sometimes TVoR DOES indeed go too much over the top, he/she/it is also one of the main attractions on PIC. While I can empathize somewhat with the current/ex PSRC staffers, it is also true that they've felt compelled to post little of redeeming value other than defending themselves time and time again while lashing out at the Voice. I thought last week's thread on ALP runng on the Haier handset was one of the most engaging and relatively floatsam-free discussions on PIC in a while--I'd like to see more like that.

The PalmSource complainers brought the wrath of TVoR upon them with their sleazy behaviour. Once they remorm and treat others with respect, they will be treated in a similar manner.

Something else to remember is that Voice's posts are, first of all, ALWAYS tongue in cheek.

Actually, I'm always being dead serious.

Anyone who cannot see that needs to lighten up and realize that it's just a website about PDAs & mobile tech, not a court of law or the front page of the Times. It's also obviously that these are not the disjointed, barely-literate ramblings of a 15 year old. Pay closer attention and you'll see it's a person with at least a foot in the door of the industry and a bone to pick with the Palm companies. No teenager could speak about the OS development, the "biz", the SFO "scene", BDSM, Japanese sexxx culture, and drop pop culture references in the course of a single post like he/she/it does!

Thanks hkklife, but I'm actually a "barely-literate 15 year old"! Shocking, isn't it? In fact, I've never even used a PDA! Gam3 b0i AdVanC3 4evR!!!

Addtionally, as Tim said, Voice's posts are always exceedingly ENTERTAINING, well-written, and grammatically and syntactically correct--regardless of actual content. That, (TO ME) makes for exceedingly compelling/thought-provoking content, especially on a boring Friday afterooon in the dead of winter. In this day and age, ESPECIALLY on the 'net, such maturity is be commended. So I guess I am in the minority in preferring to read well-written, well-argued bits of toilet humor instad of slang-filled "fanb0i" rah-rah cheerleading.

Thanks again, but sorry - I can't lend you $100. Since so many (well maybe 5) people here are TVoR haters, they will soon have their site to do with as they wish. All the kitty pictures you can handle...

Since PIC is a "anonymnity by scree name" free site, I think no one can complain TOO loudly-but some moderation would probably be in the best interest for the general concensus of Ryan and the site. For the time being, those scorned can always just stop posting under their current nicknames and renew under a different moniker. Or they could start posting in the forums, which are a DECIDEDLY tamer place. Interestingly enough, most of PIC's traffic is split between "front page people" and "forums people". Few users frequently post in both sections.

Yes. TVoR has never posted in the forums. They would be "safe" there.

TreoCentral is as silly and pointless as any web forums I've ever seen. 1src is bland, bland, bland, and impossibly redundant. Brighthand has become a pathetic collection of a handful of "me too" high'n mighty types who force their own apologetic stance down everyone. The hailstorm of criticism unleasehed when I "broke" the LifeDrive's inadequacies and Palm's intentional CDMA Bluetooth crippling brought out the lynch mob at BH ad they haven't settled down since.

Unfortunately, most of the PDA sites are either dead or dying. I posted previously about the problems that fragmenting the PalmOS PDA audience created. (TapWave sites, CLIE sites, Treo sites, Palm sites, etc, resulting in too few posters per given site.) With the PalmOS platform rapidly imploding, users will need to cluster around one or tw sites to maintain the critical mass necessary for reasonable discussion. Obviously, Palminfocenter should be one of the sites where PalmOS makes its Last Stand.

I am looking forward to Ryan's improved "system" with a mixture of trepidation and anticipation. And again, it's JUST a PDA news site. Everyone try to take a deep breath and start the week off to a better foot.

As soon as the PalmSource kiddies stop bashing me (while they're presumably at work!), I'll step aside to await the changes and see if I see a future for TVoR in the "new" Palminfocenter.

TVoR

P.S. Isn't it incredible how much the a-holes complain about things (websites, software, etc.) they receive FOR FREE? Just something for Marty, Beerty and David Schlesinger to ponder BEFORE they post another rant insulting this website...


Seems Too Obvious...
stonemirror @ 2/27/2006 3:54:29 PM # Q
Why doesn't the near-mythical Heather Cullen come on over to PIC and field some REAL questions instead of suggesting that someone reinstall their Palm Desktop CD or make sure their USB connector is securely attached?

Maybe because she could reasonably expect to be subjected to posting of her personal information, pointers to her personal photos (not excluding pictures of family members, with attendant abusive commentary), references to any non-PDA related personal web sites she might have, sexual invective directed against her family members and herself, free-floating personal abuse and the like.

Just guessin'.

RE: Where's the Beef?
hkklife @ 2/27/2006 4:01:20 PM # Q
Well, as true as those purported claims may or may not be, I'd still like to ask some REAL questions and get some REAL answers. For shiiits'n giggles in case anyone is reading them, here are a handful of my questions for PALM (not Access/PSRC):

(Anyone else feel free to chime in. Maybe Ryan can compile a list and send it Palm's way. If even 1/20th of the total questions get a serious response I'd be pleased)

1. Honest roadmap of future POS Treo plans--at least through '06. Any improvements in the glacial release schedule? Does Palm feel that stingty release schedule has hampered them or are they tring to be decidedly "non-Sony"?

2. When is Treo 650 EOL expected?

3. " " Garnet?

4. Palm's stance on ALP/Access (no spinning allowed)

5. Palm's outlook/plans for non-Treo traditional PDAs

6. Why were so many compromises made during the LD's conceptual stage?

7. Why did Palm see fit to abandon the high-end PDA market after the (relative) success of the T3?

8. Why did Palm not license the UC to anyone other than Garmin? Why have Athena periperals been so underwhelming and scarce to date--18 months after introduction? Does Palm feel even slightly responsible for the demise of Tapwave due to not licensing them the UC and giving the Zodiac a desperately needed infusion of chargers, cables, and cradles?

9. What is the REAL reason for the utter abandonment of Graffiti 1? Did anyone ever bother to try and work out a settlement with Xerox? Would Xerox be receptive to selling a plugin directly to endusers? Why not license a cut down, simplified version of Tealscript and allow the user to "customize" the handful of offending strokes (f, i, k, t,? etc)

10. Why does Palm not offer $-for-download software/app/OS updates for existing devices? Why doesn't Palm institute a real support/upgrade policy (one major free update, one minor free update, app updates for $)? Is this a viable option going forward as the final Garnet devices appear likely to have unnaturally long life cycles?

11. Who will be Palm's OEM for future Treo/pda production. Does Palm seriously care about build quality etc. or was the LD just an expensive and buggy fluke?

12. Has the Verizon "marriage" gone well? What's it like having to deal ultra-fickle carrier buyers with no brand/platform loyalty instead of the legions of Palm faithful/apologists who are guaranteed to buy whatever new devices creep out?

13. What, if anything, does Hawkins do on a daily/weekly basis for Palm? What's his stance on the 700w?

14. Has Palm ever seriously considered licensing/acquiring the BEST standalone apps out there (eReader (again), TCMP etc) and bundling them with every Palm device as full versions? Why has Palm failed to capitalize for the umpteenth time on their devices' "better than you'd expect" media playback capabilities in an attempt to capture just a SLIVER of the iPod hip kid market.

15. Why does Palm continue to cower in fear at the US CDMA telcos? Why the intentional crippling of the BT stacks for CDMA handsets on the '05 Palm devices? Many powers users demand the seamless domestic coverage of CDMA yet still want to use BT DUN. Why can Palm not realize this?

16.Why is the Phone Link updater so infrequently updated? If Palm doesn't want their users to use BT cellular connectivity then why not subsidize wi-fi hotspots nationwide?

17. Would Palm ever consider giving a HUGE middle finger to the telcos and exclusively selling unlocked GSM Treos at a GOOD price and joining up with MVNOs to offer data & feature-rich Treos at reasonable prices with no stifling contracts?

18. Palm's stance on Wi-Max etc. Would Palm ever consider again giving the finger to the telcos and joining up with Google?

19. Has Palm considered hiring ideo (again) to design a Palm V for the new millennium? How about a Razr-style Treo? Does Palm feel that style/flash/size matters AT ALL?

20. Any chances of a home-brewed Palm Linux solution to leapfrog/sidestep ALP/Access? Any chance of Palm purchasing the pieces of FrankenGarnet/Cobalt outright? Would a dual "WinMob in highend devices/Garnet 5.99 in lowend devices" strategy be viable for the 2-3 years?

21. Has Palm ever considered selling higher-margin limited run "deluxe" versions of their mainstream models exclusively on their website & retail kiosks for enthusiast users? Examples: Treo 650 with 64mb RAM and different colored housing or a LifeDrive with higher capacity battery & 6gb HD.

Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5-->TX

Typo:
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 2/27/2006 4:21:30 PM # Q
The PalmSource complainers brought the wrath of TVoR upon them with their sleazy behaviour. Once they reform and treat others with respect, they will be treated in a similar manner.
'Screw you guys, I'm going home'
freakout @ 2/27/2006 4:22:01 PM # Q
Everybody needs to take a chill pill!

"The consensus among the dozen or so folks who sat at that table (many of whose names would be known to readers here) was that a professional developer would have to be stupid to talk about anything of substance on Palm Infocenter. Sadly--and with some embarrassment that it took me this long--I'm forced to agree.

I plan to spend a lot less time here in the future."

That's very disappointing to hear. You're one of this site's leading lights and the place is a better, more interesting read for it.

Tim Carroll
Your friendly customer service robot
(and big Treo fan)

Here's why:
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 2/27/2006 4:22:36 PM # Q
Why doesn't the near-mythical Heather Cullen come on over to PIC and field some REAL questions instead of suggesting that someone reinstall their Palm Desktop CD or make sure their USB connector is securely attached?

The reason is because - SURPRISE! - Palm/PalmSource actually don't give a damn about users. They're just trying to make a quick buck. The only reason you'll ever see someone from Palm/PalmSource on a PDA site is:

1) For damage control. Remember how Michael Mace was guaranteed to pop up on Palminfocenter as soon as some bad news about the platform was released? His job was to calm the sheep down and tell them that there are no American infidels in Baghdad.

Or remember how PDA sites were innundated with posts from Mace and Dianne Hackborn last Summer when the New Plan became PalmLinux and Cobalt was shelved?

2) For advertising/spin doctoring.

http://www.palminfocenter.com/profile.asp?ID=1131


http://www.palminfocenter.com/comments/7269/#99802
http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=6355#88662
http://www.palminfocenter.com/comments/7375/#101072
http://www.palminfocenter.com/comments/7166/#97881

Don't be manipulated.

TVoR

RE: Where's the Beef?
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 2/27/2006 4:58:11 PM # Q
Everybody needs to take a chill pill!

Indeed.

"The consensus among the dozen or so folks who sat at that table (many of whose names would be known to readers here) was that a professional developer would have to be stupid to talk about anything of substance on Palm Infocenter. Sadly--and with some embarrassment that it took me this long--I'm forced to agree.

I plan to spend a lot less time here in the future."

That's very disappointing to hear. You're one of this site's leading lights and the place is a better, more interesting read for it.

Beersy made that story up. Ask him to name WHO those 12 disciples were. He won't say. BECAUSE IT NEVER HAPPENED.


The list
cervezas @ 2/27/2006 5:06:45 PM # Q
TVoR wrote:
Beersy made that story up. Ask him to name WHO those 12 disciples were. He won't say.

For the record, the dinner was on Feb 1 at the Giordano's near O'Hare. The developer who made the direct comment to me was Scott Corley from Red Mercury (AcidImage, etc). I'm quite sure he wouldn't mind being attributed. Others party to the conversation included Ivan Phillips and Debra Sancho of Pendragon Forms, George Wayland and Bryan Nystrom from Natara (DayNotez and Bonsai), Justine and Cory Pratt from Creative Algorithms (TripBoss), David Canfield (Traxitall), and Karen Jeffrey of Forall Systems. Including me that's ten of us, plus the two waitresses whose prowess with the C programming language wasn't established but who I'm pretty sure wouldn't be caught dead posting on PIC any more than the rest of us. ;-)

As for chilling out, I'm chilled, just being realistic.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

The final word? Allah Akbar!
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 2/27/2006 5:21:56 PM # Q
>>>I find it highly ironic that you screech so loudly about personal attacks and disagreements, and yet you feel free to open fire on Ryan and the way he runs his site over so trivial a perceived offense as not banning TVOR.

No you don't. You're just trolling. But thanks for playing.

Another classy response from you, Marty. That will bring you a LOT of sympathy...

>>>I strongly advise that if you don't like it, you walk up to Ryan and ask for your money back. Or better yet, leave. Go found your own site where you can be as self-important as you want.

Take your own advise. Everything you've suggested is far more fitting of yourself.

Wow.

You don't have the courage to insult people the way you do, except through the belief that no one knows who you are, so there'll be no consequences.

Well, if Ryan had any brass, this time there would be, and he'd ban you, say for six months.

Thanks for sharing, Marty. How long should he ban YOU for your behaviour?

> ...I regret that hengeem perhaps took things a little too far
> with the clues I left (if you were in The City he could have
> posted a satellite photo of your house!..."

Ahem - someone posts a complete street address, "obscuring" it by removing some letters of only one word (e.g., "smith" ==> "sXXXh"), and literally nothing more, and they don't think THEY are the ones who "took things a little far"!?

It took me maybe 5 minutes to find the ONE street in Mountain View that pattern-matched your "obscured" word - and I live 3000 miles away in Virginia with almost literally NO knowledge about Mountain View!

Furthermore, I haven't the FAINTEST idea who you or P-etc are other than a couple (very) remote posters who occasionally (getting less occasionally!) post useful interesting PALM-etc-specific posts!

Good rationalization, hengeem. Yes, I provided you with the bullets that killed Marty. I accept responsibility for you pulling the trigger. ;-O

> ...That wasn't REALLY your home address that hengeem posted
> here, was it?...

Gack!

Hmmm...YOU said it wasn't!

== "...That's not Marty's real address, Ryan..."

That's what we term a "misdirection" hengeem. I was trying to prevent an angry mob with torches from showing up and doing bad things to Marty before he had a chance to flee.

Contrary to your claims, I have also never posted "anonymously" here--I've been clear from my first posting about whom I work for and what I did there.

Did you ever put your NAME in a Palminfocenter post before I "outed" you, Mr. Schlesinger? A simple "yes" or "no" answer will suffice.

B. S. Skippy's a mean little punk, and deliberately abusive.

And Marty's a sweet innocent victim. Boo Hoo Hoo!

>>>No you don't. You're just trolling. But thanks for playing.

You were saying something about maintaining civility and open discourse, I believe?

I tried to say it nicely, but since you were so rude, I'll rephrase: you can either accept the modifications Ryan decides to make, or you can go away. It's his site, and his decision.

Funny how they never see the irony, isn't it Adama?

Do you really want the front page to turn into nothing more than a Skippy/Lefty insulting contest with a bunch of fanbois cheering each of them on?

Why would PalmSource employee David "Lefty" Schlesinger get involved in a "front page insulting contest"? Is he THAT stupid?

TVoR


RE: Where's the Beef?
twrock @ 2/27/2006 5:44:14 PM # Q
That's very disappointing to hear. You're one of this site's leading lights and the place is a better, more interesting read for it. (Incidentally, I agree.)

Tim, do I perceive correctly that you are recognizing just where the "joke" will ultimately lead if unchecked?

What I really like about PIC is that I can get a full range of "info" (well, usually I can) and even some intelligent discussion. What I really hate about PIC is when the personal insults, abusive language, threats of sexual violence, and general rudeness ruin that. I really would be disappointed to see a PIC that was either of the extremes, a blinders-on fanboy site or a say-anything-good-about-Palm-and-we'll-rip-you-a-new-one detractor site. Fortunately, the "problems" seem limited. Unfortunatly they are highly influential (for the worse).

Predictions of impending failure aside, I'm just waiting to see what results the changes actually bring. Ryan thinks we'll be happy. Here's hoping that's true.

It might not be the "mythical color HandEra", but I'm liking my TX anyway.

Thanks for the info, Beersy. Now let's see if it's true.
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 2/27/2006 6:05:23 PM # Q
If Corley and Nystrom truly dissed Palminfocenter the way you claim, they'e BOTH just lost a customer.

I hope someone emails each of the people Beersy listed and asks them about Beersy's claim that, "A few weeks back I was having dinner with a bunch of Palm developers from around the Chicago area. The conversation turned to the state of Palm Infocenter and one guy I respect a lot turned to me with an incredulous expression on his face and said "How do you do it? I mean, how can you post there?" The consensus among the dozen or so folks who sat at that table (many of whose names would be known to readers here) was that a professional developer would have to be stupid to talk about anything of substance on Palm Infocenter."

TVoR

RE: Where's the Beef?
twrock @ 2/27/2006 6:08:54 PM # Q
That's what we term a "misdirection" hengeem.

Oh, so that's what we are calling it now. Thanks for clearing that up.

It might not be the "mythical color HandEra", but I'm liking my TX anyway.

RE: Where's the Beef?
cervezas @ 2/27/2006 6:14:33 PM # Q
If Corley and Nystrom truly dissed Palminfocenter the way you claim, they'e BOTH just lost a customer.

I don't want to put words in anyone's mouth, but if you asked Scott he'd probably say he was primarily dissing you in that part of the conversation. I don't know anyone (developer or otherwise) who doesn't like the fact that the Palm platform gets active discussion here (when actual discussion occurs, at least). I noticed Ben Combee sent PIC some love on the palm-dev-forum the other day, for example. You're just not going to see most of us hanging out and posting here.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: Where's the Beef?
Gekko @ 2/27/2006 7:00:36 PM # Q

>I plan to spend a lot less time here in the future.

Beersie - you are so annoyingly disingenuous. you are here at PIC 24/7. answer me this - why haven't you gone to 1src or brighthand by now if it's so bad here???

Dollars to donuts, I bet Beersie will not only STAY here and post even more than ever, he will choose the UNFLITERED "Romper Room" option on the new moderation system. Why? Because despite his cry-baby antics and complaints here, he actually THRIVES on this shiit!



RE: Where's the Beef?
Gekko @ 2/27/2006 7:09:58 PM # Q
>Regarding the PSRC employees that complain about being abused:
a) you are a special case, I am personally surprised you dont get pelted with rotten tomatoes in the street for the way you messed up the Garnet/Cobalt transition.

"Never in the field of personal technology have so few done so much harm to so many."



RE: Where's the Beef?
Simony @ 2/27/2006 7:22:07 PM # Q
I see all the usual trolls are trying to support The Vat of Refuse.

They realise that if she is banned, that will be the 'thin end of the wedge'. They realise that they will be next. And if they are banned, they will then face a challenge - either they will find another site which lets them run amok (and there aren't any others) or those nice little 'consulting fees' (from Redmond) will dry up.

Thanks for contributing, Simony
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 2/27/2006 7:40:26 PM # Q
I see all the usual trolls are trying to support The Vat of Refuse.

They realise that if she is banned, that will be the 'thin end of the wedge'. They realise that they will be next. And if they are banned, they will then face a challenge - either they will find another site which lets them run amok (and there aren't any others) or those nice little 'consulting fees' (from Redmond) will dry up.

Tell me, Simony: have you EVER contributed even a SINGLE post to Palminfocenter worth reading?

Marty, David Schlesinger, Dr Opinion/Jeff Kirvin, twrock, Simony, Beersy, RhinoSteve... the circle is complete.

TVoR

Subterfuge, misdirection and intrigue
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 2/27/2006 7:49:01 PM # Q
>>>That's what we term a "misdirection" hengeem.

Oh, so that's what we are calling it now. Thanks for clearing that up.

I didn't expect hengeem to have posted the complete address and was actually trying to protect Marty. Now that Marty's showing us (yet again) what a world-class a-hole he is, next time I won't be so nice.


TVoR

RE: Where's the Beef?
Simony @ 2/27/2006 7:51:15 PM # Q
According to you, no, none of my posts have been worth reading.

But given the garbage you post as 'contributions', I take that as a great endorsement.

Now There's an Awfully Funny Thing...
stonemirror @ 2/27/2006 7:53:03 PM # Q
Now, that's just fascinating.

When I looked at this previous comment not five minutes ago, it ended "Now the jerk circle jerk is complete. Hope Beersy doesn't get splashed this time."

Suddenly, it's (somehow) edited to read "the circle is complete" instead.

Hm.

I can't edit my postings here.

Hm.

Fascinating.

Holy 'editing', Batman!
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 2/27/2006 8:00:13 PM # Q
So me calling Marty, David Schlesinger, Dr Opinion/Jeff Kirvin, twrock, Simony, Beersy, RhinoSteve "jerks" gets edited, yet Simony calling me "The Vat of Refuse" and making delusional claims that Microsoft is paying people to post here is left untouched?

I would never be so arrogant as to question Ryan's decisions about this site, but it looks like it's "mission accomplished" for Marty, David Schlesinger, Dr Opinion/Jeff Kirvin, et. al...

Pity.

TVoR

RE: Where's the Beef?
Simony @ 2/27/2006 8:15:55 PM # Q
There are many other names I can think of to describe the slanderous garbage you post here. The Vat of Refuse is the least offensive one I can think of and, I think it is much more apt than the moniker you use.

Simon(y)sez:
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 2/27/2006 8:29:50 PM # Q
There are many other names I can think of to describe the slanderous garbage you post here. The Vat of Refuse is the least offensive one I can think of and, I think it is much more apt than the moniker you use.


Yawn.

RE: Where's the Beef?
Gekko @ 2/27/2006 8:31:50 PM # Q

Simony - We are NOT the same. I'm an American and you're a sick a--hole.



RE: Where's the Beef?
Simony @ 2/27/2006 9:17:09 PM # Q
My criticisms were not aimed at you, Gekko.

RE: Where's the Beef?
twrock @ 2/27/2006 9:30:37 PM # Q
I can't edit my postings here.

Actually, that is a "feature" I'm happy about, particularly if there is minimal moderating of this forum. At least people can't go back and change the junk they post here prior to Ryan seeing it and at least seeing just how inappropriate it is.

All in all, that's pretty tame for TVOR, but he sure likes to dish it out. The more disgusting the better for him I guess. So it looks like Ryan had to come along and wipe it up once again. It's be nice to keep this to the topics at hand and not regularly degenerate into this mess. I'm still hoping for the best.

I still find this quote to be ironic: "Inflammatory, Inappropriate, Illegal, Inane or Offensive comments may be edited/deleted."

It might not be the "mythical color HandEra", but I'm liking my TX anyway.

RE: Where's the Beef?
PenguinPowered @ 2/27/2006 10:17:01 PM # Q
Marty says that wasn't his home address. Are you calling him a LIAR?

Actually, Skippy, I've said no such thing.

There's a liar here, Skippy, and, as usual, it's you.


May You Live in Interesting Times

RE: Where's the Beef?
PenguinPowered @ 2/27/2006 10:42:43 PM # Q
My goodness what a busy day. A few comments:

I think the "impending cesspool" comment is a bit overdone. VOR has
been on this web site many years.

For small values of "many", according to its profile. Has it always
behaved this badly? In that case, you're right. Strike "impending".

When company employees post on a business related web site
anonymously (as Penguinpowered and Stonemirror tried to do) its called
astroturfing.

Only by the terminally clueless. Even the definition of astroturfing
you pointed me to when you started accusing me of it never makes that
claim. That's http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astroturfing in case you forgot.

My goodness Skippy you don't seem to get anything right.

I know its distasteful, but without VOR this would be one very
boring web site.

There are other ways to fix that than descending into the cesspool.

Besides, it takes only about three posts for Skippy to completely use
up its repretoire. That's not a very high entertainment value.

PIC still gets 50 comments to a story (most off topic) Most other
POS websites are lucky to get 10.

Ah, so you'd rather 50 of Skippy's toilet humor posts. Got it. Put
Surur down for quantity over quality.

Everybody needs to take a chill pill!

No Tim. Skippy needs to be reined in. You can expect the site
to feature even fewer knowledgable people in the future if it is
allowed to continue its behavior.

And no, given Ryan's description of his rose-colored blinder view of the "free-for-all", I don't expect Skippy to be reined in. I expect the free fall to continue.


May You Live in Interesting Times

RE: Where's the Beef?
naio21 @ 2/27/2006 11:05:15 PM # Q
What you people don't seem to understand is that all TVoR's "acid" posts are directed to a company that simply BETRAYED Palm Users in the most "acid" way.

He is not a troller... he is a palm user like many here, but unsatisfied with the dark future of the platform, created after a loooong sequence of errors made by themselves only.

And despite of Palms defects (Zire72 "Banana" and MDS for instance) he is rebelled with PALMSOURCE. In a consumer point of view.

No one has the right to ask for his banning, still more if this one is a PSRC employee. He has his rights to complain as A CONSUMER.

BTW, Master TVoR: anytime you need help on biotchslapping some folks, please send the "material" down here to Sao Paulo, Brazil.

I'll be very happy on helping you! ;-)

Your Padawan,

Ivan

RE: Where's the Beef?
PenguinPowered @ 2/27/2006 11:19:28 PM # Q
What you people don't seem to understand is that all TVoR's "acid" posts are directed to a company that simply BETRAYED Palm Users in the most "acid" way.

It is hard to understand something that's not true.

Skippy's "acid" posts are aimed at anyone who disagrees with Skippy and makes a better case than he does. Plain and simple.



May You Live in Interesting Times

RE: Where's the Beef?
naio21 @ 2/27/2006 11:28:20 PM # Q
Nope. Both you and TVoR deviated from the original thread because of FLAMES. And who has started it, it doesn't matter.

The original question stands: Is Palmsource a reliable source of technology? Can we trust this company?

DOES PALMOS HAVE A FUTURE???

This is basically the matter TVoR arises, but no one has been able to answer it in an objective way.

It's lovely when you get emotional defending your company, but it leads anywhere than to personal bashings...

Ivan

You have learned well, Ivan. The Force is strong in you.
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 2/27/2006 11:28:43 PM # Q
What you people don't seem to understand is that all TVoR's "acid" posts are directed to a company that simply BETRAYED Palm Users in the most "acid" way.

He is not a troller... he is a palm user like many here, but unsatisfied with the dark future of the platform, created after a loooong sequence of errors made by themselves only.

Indeed. All of Palm's wounds are self-inflicted.

And despite of Palms defects (Zire72 "Banana" and MDS for instance) he is rebelled with PALMSOURCE. In a consumer point of view.

No one has the right to ask for his banning, still more if this one is a PSRC employee. He has his rights to complain as A CONSUMER.

I find it amusing that the curs yelping loudest for TVoR to be banned have yet to contribute anything useful to Palminfocenter. In Marty's case, he will best be remembered for working on code for PalmSource that got FLUSHED down the toilet (fittingly so) in the Great PalmLinux Purge of February 2006. Meanwhile, David Schlesinger is overseeing the castration of PalmOS, a feat he is no doubt proud of. And still these individuals have the GALL to come here and insult ME? Remarkable.

BTW, Master TVoR: anytime you need help on biotchslapping some folks, please send the "material" down here to Sao Paulo, Brazil.

I'll be very happy on helping you! ;-)

Your Padawan,

Ivan

I'm afraid the "material" has been made feeble-minded by repeated biotchslappings, Ivan. One more biotchslapping from you and they would surely perish. Better to keep them alive (barely) and on display here at Palminfocenter as a warning to Palm/PalmSource underlings around the world.

;-O

TVoR

Meanwhile, back on the ranch...
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 2/27/2006 11:45:09 PM # Q
If I may get things back to discussing something that matters, before Marty and his Minions hijacked this thread I had said:

http://www.palminfocenter.com/comments/8399/#119340

1) NetFrontLinux is VERY much a work in progress, with numerous major decisions (like whether or not MAX will run on X Windows!) yet to be decided. The GUI is not set in stone and this demo should be taken with a Copeland-sized grain of salt.

2) If the launcher Access finalizes on is incapable of presenting/listing ALL apps (PalmOS-native, MAX-native, Java-native and Linux-native) in a single view, this whole platform is rather poorly conceived. Having to manually enter a separate screen to access PalmOS apps through POSE would show how inelegantly PalmOS support has been grafted onto NetFrontLinux. Essentially this would mean the OS represents 4 disintegrated environments under one hastily-assembled roof.

3) PalmOS is DEAD. All that remains is (cynical) support of some PalmOS apps up to PalmOS 5. Cobalt and all the work that went into that have been thrown into the dumpster. PalmLinux (the tragic attempt to port Cobalt to a Linux kernel) and all the work that went into that have also been thrown into the dumpster. What remains of PalmOS is a caricature that makes a mockery of the past 4 years of development. PalmOS is now nothing more than a gimmick, like a mobile TV app or a high megapixel camera. The amazing thing no one seems to have realized is that it will make more sense to use StyleTap Platform to "emulate" PalmOS on a Windows Mobile device than it does to use POSE to emulate PalmOS on a NetFrontLinux device. StyleTap's existence effectively neutralizes any potential competitive advantage for Access of having POSE on NetFrontLinux. $320 million for the rights to POSE, a Chinese Linux phone OS and a few dozen Chinese Linux codemonkeys? W T F was Access thinking???

Benhamou,McVeigh, et. al. fooled 'em all.

************************************************************************


Since Access apparently has no serious interest in PalmOS, does it have ANY chance of surviving as anything other than a pathetic emulator within NetFrontLinux? Is Palm actively negotiating to re-acquire the rights to Garnet/Cobalt/PalmLinux?

Has Palm given up on PalmOS completely? Will Palm soon be announcing more Windows Mobile devices?

- Sadly, if PalmSource employees had spent as much energy coding a better OS as they have in ATTACKING me, Cobalt might have actually found its way into some REAL hardware YEARS ago. I wonder how many other individuals PalmSource has like Marty Fouts and David Schlesinger still making a mess of the company? Seems like they made a big mistake hiring these bozos. At least they got rid of one of them so far...


TVoR

RE: Where's the Beef?
stonemirror @ 2/28/2006 12:07:35 AM # Q
Just for the record, I'd disagree with the suggestion that I've "attacked" anyone at any point in this discussion.


And Lest We Forget...
stonemirror @ 2/28/2006 12:24:15 AM # Q
...in our haste to "get things back to discussing something that matters", that this thread was "hijacked" in direct response to the public posting--for all practical purposes--of Marty's home address here.

I'm still interested in how that sort of thing constitutes either "news" or "discussion".

These are the kind of MORONS working for PalmSource???
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 2/28/2006 1:08:02 AM # Q
With employees like Marty "PenguinPowered" Fouts and David "stonemirror" Schlesinger working for PalmSource, it's clear why they never manager to improve the OS beyond the hacked-up 10 year old crap that keeps getting more and more unstable each year.

Here's a tip guys: the more you post your asinine comments here, the worse you make PalmSource look (if that's even possible). Since you obviously have no interest in contributing to the discussions at Palminfocenter, perhaps you can see how much longer you can keep ranting here instead. It's nice to have such valuable contributions from people like you two. Maybe tomorrow Mr. Schlesinger can recruit a few more PalmSource codemonkeys to post their screed here instead of working trying to create a STABLE version of PalmOS.

TVoR

P.S. Your indignant act might have been a bit more convincing if you hadn't already established here several months ago that you're a couple of a-holes. And I'm sure you both know what happens to a-holes in San Francisco. Enjoy the ride, boys...


TVoR

RE: Where's the Beef?
PenguinPowered @ 2/28/2006 1:22:19 AM # Q
The original question stands: Is Palmsource a reliable source of technology? Can we trust this company?

Actually, that wasn't the original question.

DOES PALMOS HAVE A FUTURE???

Actually, that's not what we were discussing when Skippy went off on his tirade.

This is basically the matter TVoR arises, but no one has been able to answer it in an objective way.

Actually, you'll find I was the first one here to suggest objective reasons why PalmOS should be declared dead as a result of the ALP announcement.

It's lovely when you get emotional defending your company, but it leads anywhere than to personal bashings...

It would be lovely if you actually had any idea who you were talking to or what your talking about, other than being one of Skippy's fanbois.

Here's a hint: I'm the one who left PSRC and has been arguing since that PalmOS is dead.

So, would you care to try for another set of excuses for Skippy's bad behavior?

May You Live in Interesting Times

RE: Where's the Beef?
PenguinPowered @ 2/28/2006 1:26:21 AM # Q
In Marty's case, he will best be remembered for working on code for PalmSource that got FLUSHED down the toilet (fittingly so) in the Great PalmLinux Purge of February 2006.

Poor Skippy. Hasn't been paying attention again. Or is that still? or, could it possibly be that he knows the above is another one of his lies?

Sorry, Skip, but everything I worked on on PalmLinux is already in the hands of the open source community and in daily use on thousands of embedded systems.

There really is nothing you get right, is there?

Coward.


May You Live in Interesting Times

Don't stop now Marty. We're just getting warmed up.
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 2/28/2006 1:28:31 AM # Q
My goodness what a busy day. A few comments:

>>>I think the "impending cesspool" comment is a bit overdone. VOR has been on this web site many years.

For small values of "many", according to its profile. Has it always behaved this badly? In that case, you're right. Strike "impending".

Actually, I've been around since Palminfocenter started. And I've seen trolls worse than you and PalmSource's David Schlesinger come and go. You people are a dime a dozen.

>>>When company employees post on a business related web site
anonymously (as Penguinpowered and Stonemirror tried to do) its called astroturfing.

Only by the terminally clueless. Even the definition of astroturfing you pointed me to when you started accusing me of it never makes that claim. That's http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astroturfing in case you forgot.

My goodness Skippy you don't seem to get anything right.

My goodness, Marty you don't seem to even be capable of keeping track of who said what when. Try not to mix Surur and me up. Remember: I'm the "good looking" one who uses CLIEs and posts about how the idiots at Palm/PalmSource have destroyed the platform; Surur's the "brainy" one who uses PPC/Windows Mobile and posts to make Palm Apologists look like buffoons.

>>>I know its distasteful, but without VOR this would be one very boring web site.

There are other ways to fix that than descending into the cesspool.

Besides, it takes only about three posts for Skippy to completely use up its repretoire. That's not a very high entertainment value.

And your posts here have kept many entertained, Marty.

>>>PIC still gets 50 comments to a story (most off topic) Most other POS websites are lucky to get 10.

Ah, so you'd rather 50 of Skippy's toilet humor posts. Got it. Put Surur down for quantity over quality.

Thank you for your latest contribution to the "Quality Post" side of the ledger, Marty. We're all indebted to you for gracing us with your presence again.

>>>Everybody needs to take a chill pill!

No Tim. Skippy needs to be reined in. You can expect the site
to feature even fewer knowledgable people in the future if it is
allowed to continue its behavior.

Are you and David Schlesinger the kind of "knowledgable people" that won't be featured in the future because of me, Marty? If that's the case, I deserve a medal for getting rid of your ilk.

And no, given Ryan's description of his rose-colored blinder view of the "free-for-all", I don't expect Skippy to be reined in. I expect the free fall to continue.

Unfortunately, the Palm platform's "free fall" is continuing exponentially faster than any declines seen in online PalmOS communities. Maybe if PalmSource had been able to deliver a useable OS the PalmOS "free fall" might have been prevented.


TVoR


RE: Where's the Beef?
PenguinPowered @ 2/28/2006 1:30:12 AM # Q
If I may get things back to discussing something that matters, before Marty and his Minions hijacked this thread I had said:

Ah, yes, Skippy B.S. Act Part II. Part I: Distract everyone from Skippy's mistake, by doing something juvenile. Part II: Then blame others for Skippy's juvenile behavior.

Actually, Skippy, we were farther than your post before you hijacked the thread by posting my address. We had, in fact, reached the point where I had pointed out to you that, once again, you had missed what Access bought PalmSource for, and then you'd made your glaringly stupid comments about how telecommunications business operates in China.

It was in response to my correction of your stupid remarks that you posted your attempt to distract everyone.

An impressive thread so, far Skippy. You've shown yourself to be stupid about telecommunications, unwilling to accept responsibility for your own behavior, a liar, a juvenile purveyor of puerile potty mouth, and an anonymous coward.

All in less than 72 hours.

Congratulations, coward.


May You Live in Interesting Times

RE: Where's the Beef?
stonemirror @ 2/28/2006 1:33:19 AM # Q
...everything I worked on on PalmLinux is already in the hands of the open source community and in daily use on thousands of embedded systems.

'Struth.

3 words, Marty: Rabies immune globulin. It's your ONLY hope.
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 2/28/2006 2:06:42 AM # Q
Actually, Skippy, we were farther than your post before you hijacked the thread by posting my address.

Why must you continually LIE, Marty?

I never posted your address here.

***************************************************************************


Please keep frothing, Marty. (Just make sure you don't have a heart attack as you splutter yet another of your tiresome RANTS.)

TVoR

MartyWorld: a different take on reality. A 'special' place.
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 2/28/2006 2:13:52 AM # Q
you had missed what Access bought PalmSource for, and then you'd made your glaringly stupid comments about how telecommunications business operates in China.

Marty, it STILL remains to be seen why Access bought PalmSource.

And the only "glaringly stupid comments" we're seeing here are coming from you and David Schlesinger. At this point, I'm starting to question your sanity, Marty. Do you want me to have an ambulance sent over to pick you up? What was your address again?


TVoR


------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comments/7864/#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comments/8060/#111823

PalmSource scraped the bottom of the barrel with these 2...
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 2/28/2006 2:20:45 AM # Q
The fact that Marty Fours and David Schlesinger worked on PalmOS might just drive a few MORE people to Windows Mobile. These 2 imbeciles are probably the most unprofessional individuals I've ever seen representing their companies online.

Well done, Kiddies!

TVoR

RE: Where's the Beef?
PenguinPowered @ 2/28/2006 2:35:56 AM # Q
I never posted your address here.

Sure you did, Skippy. You edited out a few characters, but not enough to make it unrecognizable, as witness the post after yours.

When you get caught with your hand in the till, Skippy, it's time to stop lying about it.

Oh, I forgot. Lying's the only thing you do know how to do well.

These 2 imbeciles are probably the most unprofessional individuals I've ever seen representing their companies online.

Oh, lord, Skippy's showing his stupidity again. I don't now, nor have I ever represented a company, on line or off. Not that a juvenile punk like yourself would understand the difference between being employed by and representing.

Here's a hint, Skippy: when you call people names, you're not entertaining your audience if you keep using the same names they've heard since they were in sixth grade. You're just being boring.

On the other hand, when you lie as blatenly as you do; get as much wrong as you do; are as unwilling to accept responsibility for your own actions as much as you are; and you splash that behavior all over a web site as you do; it's not calling you names to describe you as an R Crumb loser. It's merely descriptive language.

Just as the best description for someone who behaves like you do from the mask of an anonymous account is coward.

coward.


May You Live in Interesting Times

Skippy's smoke and mirrors Part III
PenguinPowered @ 2/28/2006 2:44:04 AM # Q
Marty, it STILL remains to be seen why Access bought PalmSource.

You see folks, this is the smoke that goes with Skippy's mirrors. It couldn't simply say it was wrong in its often repeated statement $320 million for the rights to POSE, a Chinese Linux phone OS and a few dozen Chinese Linux codemonkeys? W T F was Access thinking???

Nah, that would have been too much like civilized behavior for a punk like Skippy.

Instead it had to hijack a thread, descend to massive insults, name calling, and plain old lying, and then finally try to sneak its changed position in, hoping that none of its fanbois would notice it back tracking.

No doubt, later on, Skippy will claim this was its position all along.

This is the sort of behavior some of you people prefer to reasoned discourse.

But yes, Skippy, it remains to be seen, and the answer lies in China, about which you have already demonstrated you know nothing, except for what you skim from Google.

Too bad Ryan has demonstrated that he prefers your no-nothing gutter mouth to intelligent discussion from people who do have a clue.

Now be a good little coward and run along. The adults would like to discuss ALP.


May You Live in Interesting Times

Go Marty! Go Marty! Go Marty!
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 2/28/2006 2:49:49 AM # Q
Like I said, Marty, I didn't post you address here. It's tragic to see you panic the way you have after hengeem apparently posted your address. (That WAS your current address he posted, right?)

In case you didn't know, Marty, if your identity is known and you're posting to a site dealing with the products your company sells, by default you are representing your company. And dim-witted loose cannons like you only serve to damage PalmSource with every post you make. (Given your history, perhaps that's really your hidden agenda, though.)

While it's been fun witnessing your online psychological MELTDOWN, I'll have to leave further commentary up to the night shift. Most people are still slack-jawed at your little psychotic break, but I have a feeling Surur might be able to help out.

TVoR


------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comments/7864/#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comments/8060/#111823

RE: Where's the Beef?
freakout @ 2/28/2006 2:52:19 AM # Q
"No Tim. Skippy needs to be reined in. You can expect the site
to feature even fewer knowledgable people in the future if it is
allowed to continue its behavior."

Marty, you're a very smart guy (quiet, Voice!), and so is David, and so is "Lefty", and everybody here generally displays an above-average intelligence. It's why I'm continually befuddled by the way you take the attacks of a fictional character personally. The whole address-posting thing was a step too far, and should result in a warning or brief suspension. If repeat offences occur, bring back the banning talk. There's too many nutjobs on the net to take risks with that kind of thing.

But otherwise? It's just words on a page. Why not trust the readers to decide for themselves who is right and wrong, rather than continue the slanging match? If no one took the obvious bait that TVoR dangles, then we wouldn't have what we have here - pages and pages of sniping at each other, which really *is* boring reading. It irritates me that an interesting discussion about business practices in China has turned into this - and both you and The Voice share equal blame.

You cannot personally insult a fictional character. Especially not one that *wants* you to get mad at it.

Trust the readership. We can tell when TVoR is ranting and when it's gone over the line. The fact that PIC still *has* a healthy number of readers and commentators (unless I'm wrong, Ryan) implies that The Voice is really not driving ppl away.

In short - all the arguments that have gone on in this thread are fuel for the fire. The readers would hate to see *any* of you leave, I imagine. I certainly know I would. It doesn't need to be personal. Unless you let it be.

And now, I'm gonna quit posting in this thread. Less fuel for the fire. Hopefully a mod system will sort this out.

Tim Carroll
Your friendly customer service robot
(and big Treo fan)

Whoa, Nelly!!!
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 2/28/2006 3:04:43 AM # Q
>>>Marty, it STILL remains to be seen why Access bought PalmSource.

You see folks, this is the smoke that goes with Skippy's mirrors. It couldn't simply say it was wrong in its often repeated statement $320 million for the rights to POSE, a Chinese Linux phone OS and a few dozen Chinese Linux codemonkeys? W T F was Access thinking???

Nah, that would have been too much like civilized behavior for a punk like Skippy.

Instead it had to hijack a thread, descend to massive insults, name calling, and plain old lying, and then finally try to sneak its changed position in, hoping that none of its fanbois would notice it back tracking.

No doubt, later on, Skippy will claim this was its position all along.

This is the sort of behavior some of you people prefer to reasoned discourse.

But yes, Skippy, it remains to be seen, and the answer lies in China, about which you have already demonstrated you know nothing, except for what you skim from Google.

Too bad Ryan has demonstrated that he prefers your no-nothing gutter mouth to intelligent discussion from people who do have a clue.

Now be a good little coward and run along. The adults would like to discuss ALP.

Marty, are you OK? Just give me the word and I'll be at your front door with some haloperidol within 45 minutes.

I'll say it again: it STILL remains to be seen why Access bought PalmSource. Until we see Access' product mix, what they do with NetFrontLinux, whether or not they sell PalmOS back to Palm, etc it's all up in the air. The bottom line is that ALL of the possible scenarios explaining why Access paid so much for a moribund company involve significant risk taking on the part of Access. I believe they will fail in the long run.

Try not to be a hater, Marty. Hate will eat you ALIVE.

Thanks, for sharing, little Buddy.

Take care

TVoR



------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comments/7864/#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comments/8060/#111823

RE: Where's the Beef?
PenguinPowered @ 2/28/2006 3:07:05 AM # Q
In case you didn't know, Marty, if your identity is known and you're posting to a site dealing with the products your company sells, by default you are representing your company.

Well, there's another mistaken assumption we can add to the long list of things Skippy doesn't know.

I'd explain what 'represent' meant in a business context, and why in neither of the senses is someone a representative just because they are known to be employed by a company, but a) it's more than a juvenile punk like you can follow and b) it'd bore your fanbois.

Besides, you'd just follow up with more toilet mouth, so why bother educating you?


May You Live in Interesting Times

RE: Where's the Beef?
PenguinPowered @ 2/28/2006 3:13:56 AM # Q
Marty, you're a very smart guy (quiet, Voice!), and so is David, and so is "Lefty", and everybody here generally displays an above-average intelligence. It's why I'm continually befuddled by the way you take the attacks of a fictional character personally.

Because the 'fictional character' is intentionally trying to cause trouble in the real world for the people it attacks.

The whole address-posting thing was a step too far, and should result in a warning or brief suspension.

"too far" was months ago when Skippy and his buddies tried to seed lefty's email address for the spam harvesters and then tried to seed google with out-of-context references.

The whole address-posting thing was enough beyond too far to justify permanent banning, which, frankly, Ryan doesn't have the brass for.

If repeat offences occur, bring back the banning talk.

And how many times in the last few months do you think Ryan has expunged Skippy's postings because they were over the line?

Repeated offences did occur. Now is the time for banning or outing.

There's too many nutjobs on the net to take risks with that kind of thing.

So level the playing field. Make Skippy post as itself rather than hide behind the mask. See how much it enjoys being targeted that way.

The problem, Tim, is that Skippy's not just trying to be tongue-and-cheek funny. It's trying to do mischief to people in their lifes off the net. For the most part, it's small stuff, but sooner or later, it's going to go over the line in a way that causes more than just the nuisance of having to put up with more spam in your inbox.

So just when should we put an end to it, now, while the offenses are still mostly trivial, or later, after someone really does get hurt?

Skippy's had more than three strikes, it's had three innings of strikes. Time to send it to the showers.


May You Live in Interesting Times

Don't you run when I'm talking to you, Marty.
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 2/28/2006 3:19:24 AM # Q
>>>In case you didn't know, Marty, if your identity is known and you're posting to a site dealing with the products your company sells, by default you are representing your company.

Well, there's another mistaken assumption we can add to the long list of things Skippy doesn't know.

I'd explain what 'represent' meant in a business context, and why in neither of the senses is someone a representative just because they are known to be employed by a company, but a) it's more than a juvenile punk like you can follow and b) it'd bore your fanbois.

Besides, you'd just follow up with more toilet mouth, so why bother educating you?

That was weak, even for you, Marty. ("I could tell you why you're wrong, but you wouldn't understand...")

Indulge us, Buddy. We'll try to keep up with you.


RE: Where's the Beef?
PenguinPowered @ 2/28/2006 3:22:02 AM # Q
I'll say it again: it STILL remains to be seen why Access bought PalmSource.

and only a few messages earlier, you were saying that it was all about the list of stuff I quoted.

Wonder which one you'll stick with.

Until we see Access' product mix, what they do with NetFrontLinux, whether or not they sell PalmOS back to Palm, etc it's all up in the air.

Gee, Skippy, isn't it a bit late for you to start trying to behave reasonably? How long will it last this time?

The bottom line is that ALL of the possible scenarios explaining why Access paid so much for a moribund company involve significant risk taking on the part of Access.

Nope. They don't all and half the ones you've tried to outline aren't even possible. It's beyond you to understand why, and I'm not going to explain it to a punk like you, because of your behavior.

Besides we don't want to bore your fanbois.

I believe they will fail in the long run.

You believe a lot of stuff without evidence or justifiable argument.

You don't know enough about China to justify an opinion on Access' plan. You don't know enough about Access to assess their strengths and weaknesses. You don't know enough about the industry to even know who the players actually are.

You don't know enough to even bother teaching you what you don't know.

Now be a good little punk and go off to some other thread and entertain your fanbois.


May You Live in Interesting Times

Marty the Drama Queenie
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 2/28/2006 3:29:16 AM # Q
The problem, Tim, is that Skippy's not just trying to be tongue-and-cheek funny. It's trying to do mischief to people in their lifes off the net. For the most part, it's small stuff, but sooner or later, it's going to go over the line in a way that causes more than just the nuisance of having to put up with more spam in your inbox.

So just when should we put an end to it, now, while the offenses are still mostly trivial, or later, after someone really does get hurt?

My God!

When will it stop!!!!


When someone gets... KILLED????????????????????


Remember, Marty: I never posted your address. Do you REALLY live at the address hengeem posted? Really?

*****************************************************************************

Marty, if anyone of the Voice(s) of Reason (yes, there are several) wanted to f*** you up, they would have done so a LONG time ago. They didn't because you were amusing. Now you're not. Don't make me look bad for defending you before the TVoR Council.


TVoR




------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comments/7864/#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comments/8060/#111823

RE: Where's the Beef?
PenguinPowered @ 2/28/2006 3:32:08 AM # Q
That was weak

Even weak is more effort than a punk like you is worth wasting. I'll remember not to try so hard next time.


May You Live in Interesting Times

RE: Where's the Beef?
PenguinPowered @ 2/28/2006 3:38:44 AM # Q
Remember, Marty: I never posted your address.

Repeating a lie doesn't make it so, Skippy. Give up.

Do you REALLY live at the address hengeem posted? Really?

I have no idea. Ryan got to the posts before I saw them, so I don't know what address was posted.

Ryan did tell me what you posted, though. So stop lying, punk.

And if it's no big deal to have your address posted here, why don't you post yours?

Because you're afraid to.

Coward.


May You Live in Interesting Times

You're trying TOO hard, Marty. Don't blow a gasket.
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 2/28/2006 3:39:02 AM # Q
I'll remember not to try so hard next time.

Do you promise? Can we get that in writing?

Referee stops contest due to DEATH of Marty in 2nd Round.
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 2/28/2006 3:42:16 AM # Q
"His corner should have thrown in the towel right away."

- Angelo Dundee

The ghost of Marty can keep posting to this thread for the next decade, but I'm out for now. I think we've now all seen a side to Marty that few knew existed: Rabid Lunatic Marty.

And remember what happened to Old Yeller at the end of the movie...

RE: Where's the Beef?
PenguinPowered @ 2/28/2006 3:48:25 AM # Q
I'll remember not to try so hard next time.

Do you promise? Can we get that in writing?

Gee, Skippy, that wasn't very well written or entertaining. Careful, you're starting to let your fanbois down.


May You Live in Interesting Times

Time is running out, Marty...
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 2/28/2006 3:53:20 AM # Q
Skippy's smoke and mirrors Part IV
PenguinPowered @ 2/28/2006 3:54:01 AM # Q
and there we have it folks, Skippy declares success and quits the arena.

Gee Skippy, not particularly entertaining tonight. You really let the fanbois down.

They're not going to be happy with you when they read to this point and see you wandering off stage with your tail between your legs, feeling like old yeller at the end of the film.

Book is now open on how long it will be before the next time Ryan finds it necessary to edit one of Skippy's over-the-top posts.

Who want "24 hours"?



May You Live in Interesting Times

Skippy's return!
PenguinPowered @ 2/28/2006 4:03:40 AM # Q
Ladies and gentleman, I believe we have a new record.

Yes, the judges are all in agreement. At eleven minutes, this is the shortest time on record between when Skippy claimed he was quiting a thread and when he next posted in it.

I'm surprised they let you use medline there at the help desk Skippy. Must be a very slow night.

Thanks for the URL, but since you haven't actually bitten anyone, nobody needs the rabies treatment.



May You Live in Interesting Times

RE: Where's the Beef?
Simony @ 2/28/2006 5:43:00 AM # Q
By way of comparison with the above, I note that there are some interesting open threads over at treocentral.com. No flamewars of this kind over there (from what I can see). Why? Because they BAN trolls over there - not quite 'zero tolerance' but close enough. The result: you actually see some interesting discussion. Even our friend, Surur, behaves himself over at treocentral.com.

BTW, the First Amendment right to free speech, one of the most important civil rights, has never been allowed to excuse any form of slander. Yet, outright slander is permitted here at PIC, apparently in the name of 'free speech'.

RE: Where's the Beef?
Gekko @ 2/28/2006 6:30:30 AM # Q

i would just like to see these 3-4 members give it up - not because i'm offended by it, but because it has gotten so repetitive and boring.

please just stop.

RE: Where's the Beef?
SeldomVisitor @ 2/28/2006 6:56:03 AM # Q
> ...I didn't expect hengeem to have posted the complete address...

and, amongst a cast of other trolling posts:

> ...Remember, Marty: I never posted your address. Do you REALLY
> live at the address hengeem posted? ...

Giggle (hook, line, and sinker!).

======

When you post something equivalent to:

== "Marty lives at 1234 LXXXXXr Street, Anytown, CA!"

and there is literally only one street in Anytown, CA that matches an 'L' followed by 5 letters folllowed by an 'r' and someone across the country from Anytown says "Oh, that was easy!", I would posit that it is you doing the address posting.

=====

But now I'm wondering why you ave repeated the "hengeem" assertion at all since trolling for a response out of me is ... just weird.

Better to stick with Marty trolling - they at least are PALM-centric, sort of.

RE: Where's the Beef?
stonemirror @ 2/28/2006 10:01:37 AM # Q
Because the 'fictional character' is intentionally trying to cause trouble in the real world for the people it attacks.

Yes, this is the issue. Well, this and the repeated, egregious, childish, intrusive, frequently disgusting and always off-topic dragging of people's personal lives into the discussion when the "fictional character" doesn't feel things are going its way.

It should be clear at this point that this sort of tactic is intended to shut down actual discussion and drive off other participants, as I've said.

the friendly PIC forums
Admin @ 2/28/2006 10:04:55 AM # Q
The PIC forums get a good amount of posts, and conversations there are MUCH more tame and topical than I can say about the news articles. (which will change going forward)

-Ryan
RE: Where's the Beef?
Gekko @ 2/28/2006 10:20:45 AM # Q

Ryan - please whatever you do, don't let 16 year old kids who play with legos moderate the news article comments. it's bad enough that they have this power in the forums. the forums have become a true "romper room". it's for this reason that i no longer post there or frequent them.



RE: Where's the Beef?
stonemirror @ 2/28/2006 10:57:53 AM # Q
...then tried to seed google with out-of-context references...

This has never stopped. You'll note that every time I get referred to in certain quarters, I'm invariably "Palmsource's David Schlesinger".

This sort of thing is yet another pathetic attempt at intimidation, intended to shut down discussion, the hope clearly being that the subject of such attention will be scared off rather than face the "threat" of further Google-bombing. This, along with the other bad behavior, is simply a sign that the instigator truly has nothing of substance to say, and is only interested in shutting other people up by whatever means necessary.

RE: Where's the Beef?
Gekko @ 2/28/2006 11:12:10 AM # Q

If you malcontents had put as much energy and effort into developing COBALT as you do in apologist-posting on this forum, maybe PSRC would still be in business and we'd have a new, real, exciting PalmOS to talk about.



RE: Where's the Beef?
stonemirror @ 2/28/2006 11:22:47 AM # Q
...maybe PSRC would still be in business...

We are still in business, at least unless something very unexpected happened in the past thirty-five seconds.

Why, we had a whole buncha people at 3GSM in Barcelona just the week before last, talking about our Linux platform and demonstrating our new UI framework! It's new, it's real, it's exciting, and I'm looking forward to providing more detail on it. And, as near as I can tell, I'm the only one around these parts who's in a position to speak with any degree of authority about it.

But as I've said at the outset, the expectation that any such sharing would result in the posting of my home address, my family photos, and other personal information in no way relevant to the topic at hand, has significantly diminished my enthusiasm for doing so.

So, there you are.

RE: Where's the Beef?
ChiA @ 2/28/2006 12:13:56 PM # Q
We are still in business

Yea, just like Chevrolet is still "in business" within the General Motors corporation.
Just hope and pray PalmSource doesn't go the same way as that other GM brand, Oldsmobile.

Sadly I believe, as is the case of these big dog eats small dog takeovers and mergers, it's only a matter of time before the PalmSource name disappears altogether, unless it's in Access's plans to sell off PalmSource at some point in the future.

"It is commonly said, and more particularly by Lord Shaftesbury, that ridicule is the best test of truth".
Lord Chesterfield

RE: Where's the Beef?
stonemirror @ 2/28/2006 1:10:55 PM # Q
...it's only a matter of time before the PalmSource name disappears altogether...

Well, as far as that goes, this became "a matter of time" some months before the announcement of the ACCESS acquisition: we sold that trademark back to Palm and only have use of it for a limited time.

RE: Where's the Beef?
Gekko @ 2/28/2006 1:15:52 PM # Q

Congratulations, because thanks to all of you ne'er-do-wells, PSRC is in the ash heap of history.



RE: Where's the Beef?
Surur @ 2/28/2006 1:29:13 PM # Q
It's new, it's real, it's exciting, and I'm looking forward to providing more detail on it. And, as near as I can tell, I'm the only one around these parts who's in a position to speak with any degree of authority about it.

But as I've said at the outset, the expectation that any such sharing would result in the posting of my home address, my family photos, and other personal information in no way relevant to the topic at hand, has significantly diminished my enthusiasm for doing so.

So, there you are.

If you have something useful or interesting to say about ALP, why dont you. Else dont. This whole "You should have treated me better, now I'm taking my ball and going home!" thing is a bit childish.

If you dont like it here, just go. No one is forcing you to be here. Or are you just here to battle it out with VOR?

Surur


They said I only argued for the sake of arguing, but after an hour I convinced them they were wrong...

RE: Where's the Beef?
Gekko @ 2/28/2006 1:51:31 PM # Q

>It's new, it's real, it's exciting, and I'm looking forward to providing more detail on it.

That's what Nagel said about COBALT.

Forgive me for being skeptical.



RE: Where's the Beef?
Simony @ 2/28/2006 3:03:00 PM # Q
> If you have something useful or interesting to say about ALP, why dont you. Else dont. This whole "You should have treated me better, now I'm taking my ball and going home!" thing is a bit childish.

> If you dont like it here, just go. No one is forcing you to be here. Or are you just here to battle it out with VOR?

Maybe.

To put this in perspective: Isn't it childish for you to come here to PIC and complain about 1src.com*, just because they had the good sense to ban you from their forums?

Anyway, this is the sort of post that you probably wouldn't make over at treocentral.com. The moderators over there would likely ban you from that site too.

*Footnote - I just love that graph Surur posted recently comparing hits to PIC and 1src.com. Not only did it use a logarithmic X-axis, but it looks like it was inverted too. Either this was an error or an inspired piece of statistics manipulation. (If the latter, Surur could get a very lucrative job in the M$ markteting department.)

RE: Where's the Beef?
Surur @ 2/28/2006 3:29:13 PM # Q

Due to 1src's moderation polices (basically protecting Kirvin) I still read their site, but no longer make any attempts to correct them. Let them enjoy their blissful ignorance if they must. One of their longest current threads is legodude's "So long to PalmOS!" which I find rather amusing for such an insular website.

Regarding that graph, its dynamically generated by Alexa, the lower your page rank the better (google is 2), and as you noted its logarithmic, so PIC is actually significantly ahead of the moribund 1src.com

www.1src.com&u=www.palminfocenter.com&" rel=nofollow target="_new">http://traffic.alexa.com/graph?a=1&w=468&h=240&r=1y&u=www.1src.com&u=www.palminfocenter.com&

Traffic Rank for palminfocenter.com: 17,590
Traffic Rank for 1src.com: 26,684

Surur

They said I only argued for the sake of arguing, but after an hour I convinced them they were wrong...

RE: Where's the Beef?
stonemirror @ 2/28/2006 3:44:04 PM # Q
...Or are you just here to battle it out with VOR?

Me? I'm not "battling it out" with anybody (and I'd note that I haven't responded to a single one of the I-haven't-bothered-to-count-how-many predictably juvenile and ridiculous goads which have been posted elsewhere in this thread).

I'm calmly and reasonably pointing out that the situation here is entirely out of hand. Ryan seems to be in some agreement with that. Further, I'm simply pointing out that there's no conceivable circumstance under which I'm going to involve myself in anything like even a "MODERATED question and answer" on ALP here when it's presented as a precondition for the silliness at hand to come to a stop.

The silliness needs to stop first.

(FULL DISCLOSURE: I'm eating my lunch right now and I'm back at work in ten minutes; additionally, I am posting from my own computer, and no company resources were utilized or consumed in the production of this comment, so don't even bother, okay?)

RE: Where's the Beef?
Surur @ 2/28/2006 3:48:51 PM # Q
Less messed up url for the graph.

http://tinyurl.com/oqqv5


Surur

They said I only argued for the sake of arguing, but after an hour I convinced them they were wrong...

RE: Where's the Beef?
Simony @ 2/28/2006 3:52:36 PM # Q
Well, over at 1src.com lots over people take swipes at that Kirvan guy without being banned (eg JAmerican) - when you were banned, they must have thought that you were particularly objectionable troll.

I may be mistaken, but didn't you try to use your 'sr4' nom de spin, in order to sidestep the ban at 1src.com - but you where discovered and banned again? (Or maybe that was what you did over here at PIC - can't keep up with all your antics.)

RE: Where's the Beef?
Surur @ 2/28/2006 4:00:09 PM # Q
Kirvin did not care about being attacked by people who were poorly informed, but he sure hated being embarrassed by some-one who could prove him wrong using numbers and independent sources. In the end he could not stand to have every stupid position he took being successfully attacked (and he used to love taking stupid positions, to make his podcasts and editorials more interesting). This eventually caused me to be banned.

I did post under a number of other accounts (sr1 sr2 sr3 sr4 etc) for a few weeks (>6 months ago) but always signed surur. This of course caused each post to be instantly deleted. I was upset because I felt censored for telling the truth. I eventually realized my stupidity for trying to inform those who just refuse to hear. As VOR likes to say, the definition of insanity is doing the same thing expecting different results. I haven't posted there since. Such is the lessons of life.

Surur

They said I only argued for the sake of arguing, but after an hour I convinced them they were wrong...

RE: Where's the Beef?
Simony @ 2/28/2006 4:00:49 PM # Q
> Due to 1src's moderation polices (basically protecting Kirvin) I still read their site, but no longer make any attempts to correct them. Let them enjoy their blissful ignorance if they must.

So, let me see if I've got this straight - 1src.com visitors live in 'ignorance' because you are not able to run your spin campaign over there? They are 'ignorant' because they don't like your transparent astroturfing? (Sounds like an enlightened approach to me.)

RE: Where's the Beef?
stonemirror @ 2/28/2006 8:55:40 PM # Q
That's what Nagel said about COBALT.

Oh? It's what Steve Jobs said about OS X, too. I'm not either of those guys.

Forgive me for being skeptical.

I forgive you.

Of course, starting right out of the gate on the basis that we're all a bunch of charlatans who would put an "obvious gif" onto a phone at a major trade show like 3GSM, call it a demo, and put out supporting press releases and such, goes a tad beyond "skepticism". Doesn't really provide much ground for further discussion, y' know?

Where's the yada yada?
freakout @ 2/28/2006 9:34:41 PM # Q
"Of course, starting right out of the gate on the basis that we're all a bunch of charlatans who would put an "obvious gif" onto a phone at a major trade show like 3GSM, call it a demo, and put out supporting press releases and such, goes a tad beyond "skepticism". Doesn't really provide much ground for further discussion, y' know?"

Lol.

Well, *I* believe it's all real. Some friendly questions (sorry if they've already been asked):

1) Any word yet from Palm on what they think of ALP?

2) What motivation will developers have to use MAX rather than Java or GTK? Wouldn't it make more sense to use the latter two 'since they're cross-platform?

3) Will ALP be purely phone-oriented or are Access planning to market it as a PDA OS too?

4) Who do we blame for Cobalt? ;) (kidding!)

Tim Carroll
Your friendly customer service robot
(and big Treo fan)

RE: Where's the Beef?
Simony @ 2/28/2006 10:34:46 PM # Q
> I eventually realized my stupidity for trying to inform those who just refuse to hear.

Or to advertise to those who were not interested in snake oil?

RE: Where's the Beef?
twrock @ 2/28/2006 10:51:29 PM # Q
Umm, maybe this would be helpful:
http://tinyurl.com/qah2p

It might not be the "mythical color HandEra", but I'm liking my TX anyway.
This thread is now closed
Admin @ 2/28/2006 11:09:17 PM # Q
I am ending this thread and closing comments to this article.

There has been a lot of good discussion posted here regarding the new comments system. I invite you all to continue it and add your input on the new comments system in this thread:

http://www.palminfocenter.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=168942


Any further grossly off topic remarks, flames or insults will be removed from this story.
I simply don't have the time or the patience to police this thread. If you 1 - can't be respectful to each other and 2 - can't post without resorting to insults threads are going to get locked.

In the future locked threads will have an icon, but right now the comment button will not work.

Thank you.

-Ryan

RE: Where's the Beef?
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 12/14/2006 11:40:21 PM # Q
10 months later and this thread still leaves you slackjawed...


TVoR

RE: Where's the Beef?
twrock @ 12/15/2006 12:52:38 AM # Q
It's a bit handy for some that some of what was posted got "moderated" out. So "some people" don't look quite as childish now as they were behaving then.

(Hmm..., I thought this thread was closed.)

I'm still waiting for the mythical color HandEra.

A mighty fine biotchslapping, indeed.
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 6/9/2007 9:09:48 PM # Q
http://www.palminfocenter.com/comments/8399/#119340


Time will show you're WRONG, Marty. Bookmark this page.
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 2/24/2006 10:45:25 PM

No, Marty. China MobileSoft is now a Japanese company. And it will be exploited appropriately.

Care to make a wager, Marty? $100 donation to the charity of the winner's choice. I say Access will be bankrupt (or bought out) within 2 years. Secondary bet (for $10): I say Access will end up selling off the rights ("ownership") to one or more of Cobalt/PalmLinux/PalmOS 5 within 18 months.

Access will sell off Cobalt, PalmLinux (+ maybe even Garnet)
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 2/24/2006 10:01:41 PM


I still expect that Access will (either by design or out of desperation) sell off the rights to Cobalt and PalmLinux code within a year or two*.

[*Another BOLD prediction from TVoR™]

Well would you look at that! Gosh!

And by the way, how many phones do we have available as of June 2007 shipping with Access' KludgeOS ALP-OS? None, you say? Shocking!

Ki o tsukete Schlesinger-san

Get back to work, biotch. Now.

TVoR

Where's the _Sense_?
stonemirror @ 6/9/2007 9:54:48 PM # Q
Yeah, look at that: you haven't been right yet.

Access' ALP-OS release dates slip-slidin' away?
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 6/9/2007 11:48:30 PM # Q
Dear David Schlesinger ("stonemirror"),

As a PalmSource manager and Access lackey, you must be under a lot of pressure right now trying to squash the bugs out of your KludgeOS... ummmm... ALP-OS. Why haven't we seen any devices running your OS yet, Mr. Schlesinger? Are your release dates slipping again? Designing an OS is hard work, isn't it? How's that SDK coming? And how are your introductory Japanese lessons going? Isn't Japanese a difficult language to learn? I will pray for you at the temple, Schlesinger-san.

I'm going to be in Mountain View tomorrow afternoon. Do you remember the name of that Japanese noodle house down there? The one with the counter. in the center and the tables around the edges. Maybe you, Marty and I can meet up for lunch there. Take care.

Hugs & Kisses as always
Ki o tsukete

TVoR

RE: Where's the Beef?
stonemirror @ 6/11/2007 2:46:49 AM # Q
Are your release dates slipping again?

Nope.

Designing an OS is hard work, isn't it?

Sure. If it wasn't, everybody'd do it.

How's that SDK coming?

Great, thanks. We just participated in the launch of Orange's Beijing Developer's Centre, went quite nicely--see http://www.access-company.com/news/press/ACCESS/2007/20070601_orange.html for details--were a sponsor of the Orange Partner Camp at Cape Canaveral, Florida this past April. We'll be having a Developer Day at LinuxWorld again this year as well, see http://linuxworldexpo.com/live/12/events/12SFO07A/conference/CC850065.

We've got a lot of other interesting stuff going on, but I'm not at liberty to discuss that sort of thing, generally, for reasons that should be obvious. Nature of the business.

Personally, I'll be presenting on the Hiker Framework (http://www.hikerproject.org) at the Ottawa Linux Symposium at the end of the month, and at GUADEC 2007 in Birmingham, UK next month. So, things are going quite nicely, thanks for asking.

Isn't Japanese a difficult language to learn?

Yes and no. I was saying to my friends in Tokyo just this past week when I was there for a visit--I've only touched back down in California around nine this morning, busy, busy--"Nihongo no hanashi-koto wa, chotto kantan desu, kedo nihongo no yomi-koto wa, nihongo no kaki-koto wa, totemo muzukashii desu yo." They all agreed, but felt I was doing quite well nonetheless. I did get pretty universal compliments on my accent. Ganbarimashou.

Do you remember the name of that Japanese noodle house down there?

Of course I do, I'm a bit of a regular: Ryowa Ramen House. Villa Street, north of Castro. I should be there around noon, but expect a line out onto the sidewalk, just like in Tokyo. You'd better meet outside if you wanna get seats together: you have to sign up on a clipboard. I recommend the Butter-Corn ramen, but bring an appetite, even the small is large.

I expect you're too much of a coward to actually show up, but it won't make the ramen taste any different either way. I'd be as likely to go there as anywhere for lunch. You'll recognize me: you remember, I'm sure, that you posted a pointer to a personal picture of mine taken during a prior visit to Tokyo, along with some commentary.

Feel free to fall by and identify yourself. I'll be quite interested to see whether you have the spine to actually show up, either as a single person or a crowd.

Beef, Hell, Where's the _Mouth_?
stonemirror @ 6/11/2007 8:09:14 PM # Q
Well, I was there at Ryowa Ramen House, from about 12:15 until around one, no sign of anyone other than a bunch of Japanese folks and me. I certainly couldn't have been hard to spot if anyone wanted to: I was literally the only gaikokujin in the place. (Is a gaikokujin still a gaikokujin outside of Japan...? Dunno.)

Not surprising, I didn't actually expect that the Mouth could possibly overcome its own craven cowardice.

Didn't make the ramen taste any different. Miso broth, extra negi, menmai and moyashi. Very good.


Thanks, David Schlesinger
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 6/12/2007 4:45:49 AM # Q
Well, I was there at Ryowa Ramen House, from about 12:15 until around one,

Thanks for the info. I couldn't remember the name of the place or what street it was on. Haven't been there in a while. I wish you'd told me the name BEFORE you went down. Oh well.

Take care.

TVoR

Dining + development suggestions for my new pal Dave:
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 6/12/2007 12:41:39 PM # Q
When you're in Ottawa make sure you go to a little Indian restaurant downtown in the Byward Market called Haveli and order the Mulligatawny soup. You can thank me later.

39 Clarence St.

TVoR
-Dave's new dinner buddy


P.S.
Presenting at conferences and developer meetings is a LOT different than getting your OS into devices and into the hands of consumers. We're still waiting for ALP-OS to show up on a real device and already this is the middle of 2007. I wonder how much time you think you really have to get your OS to market. It's sounding more and more like PalmSource/Access is going to pull another Cobalt...

No Beef From the Mouth
stonemirror @ 6/12/2007 1:06:52 PM # Q
I wish you'd told me the name BEFORE you went down.

I did, close to ten hours before, in fact--look at the time stamp. Don't ask questions when you're not actually interested in the answers. It makes me very disinclined to entertain future queries.



Time for a Little 'Edumacation'
stonemirror @ 6/12/2007 2:48:07 PM # Q
Presenting at conferences and developer meetings is a LOT different than getting your OS into devices and into the hands of consumers.

I don't think you understand the business we're in. We've gotten our operating system into the hands of our customers--i.e. device manufacturers and carriers (like Orange); we did that back around 3GSM. We're currently working with a good number of those customers, progressing toward getting devices into the hands of their customers (i.e. carriers and end users).

We will almost certainly not be the ones to independently announce specific design wins or the timing of the release of specific products based on the ACCESS Linux Platform: that's not up to us. Our customers expect and receive confidentiality from us, and they get it, too.

PS: Byward Market's for tourists; a good place to go for dinner if you enjoy paying twice the going prices for food that's not as good as you can get elsewhere in Ottawa. I know much better places to go.

PPS: You had your opportunity to be my "dinner buddy". Sorry, I get stood up rarely, but never twice.

David, David, David...
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 6/12/2007 4:51:10 PM # Q
Access' ALP-OS release dates slip-slidin' away?
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 6/9/2007 11:48:30 PM #

Dear David Schlesinger ("stonemirror"),

As a PalmSource manager and Access lackey, you must be under a lot of pressure right now trying to squash the bugs out of your KludgeOS... ummmm... ALP-OS. Why haven't we seen any devices running your OS yet, Mr. Schlesinger? Are your release dates slipping again? Designing an OS is hard work, isn't it? How's that SDK coming? And how are your introductory Japanese lessons going? Isn't Japanese a difficult language to learn? I will pray for you at the temple, Schlesinger-san.

I'm going to be in Mountain View tomorrow afternoon

If "today" was June 9, what day would "tomorrow" be, Sweetie?

(If you run out of fingers to do the counting, you can always use your toes.)


TVoR

RE: Where's the naan?
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 6/12/2007 4:58:41 PM # Q
PS: Byward Market's for tourists; a good place to go for dinner if you enjoy paying twice the going prices for food that's not as good as you can get elsewhere in Ottawa. I know much better places to go.


Rather than trying to pretend you know Ottawa and ending up showing everyone just how ignorant you actually are, I'd suggest you simply follow my advice. If you don't believe me, just ask anyone who has lived in Ottawa and knows what they're talking about. Dumba$$.

P.S. Please don't butcher the French language while you're up there. Merci bien, mon ami...

- TVoR + Mr. Crowley

RE: Where's the Beef?
cervezas @ 6/12/2007 7:10:34 PM # Q
Get a room, you two.


David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: Where's the Beer?
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 6/12/2007 7:18:26 PM # Q
Don't be such a jealous twat, Beersy. You're still my biotch.

TVoR

RE: Where's the Beef?
cervezas @ 6/12/2007 7:44:55 PM # Q
Inside that tormented mind of yours I have no doubt that this is the case.
RE: Where's the Beef?
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 6/12/2007 10:37:45 PM # Q
That's my biotch. Good girl, Beersy. SIT.
See? Just Try to Do a 'Person' a Favor...
stonemirror @ 6/13/2007 3:43:09 AM # Q
Now that you've reverted to form, let me just make a couple of comments, and then I think I'm calling it a day here, since the discussion--as usual--is clearly trending steeply downhill.

1. I only just stepped off a plane 9 am Sunday morning, after having left the other side of the Pacific at 4 pm the same day. So if my sense of time is a bit off, you're just gonna have to live with it. Find your own ramen place next time.

2. I know much better places in Ottawa, or at the very least, places I'm certain I'd prefer. Last year, I discovered a small place, well out of the way of traps like Byward Market, newly opened, serving a very unique "Native-American-inspired" cuisine. Know the place...? I'll definitely be going there again. And it's not as though your benevolence and concern for the well-being of others has been so impressive that I'm itching to take dining recommendations from you. I don't even like (Eastern) Indian food.

3. Having studied French in high school and college for a total of about seven years, worked for Crédit Lyonnais for two, and being fluent enough to manage quite well, thanks, in France doesn't help you all that much with Québeçois, which is a French more or less frozen in time, like around 1704. Even native French speakers have difficulties managing in Quebec. In any case, I'll "mangle" all the French I feel like, mon petit, vilain espèce de cafard.

I was right the first time: you contributed more with your absence that you did with your presence.

RE: Where's the Bœuf?
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 6/13/2007 11:25:54 PM # Q
Now that you've reverted to form, let me just make a couple of comments, and then I think I'm calling it a day here, since the discussion--as usual--is clearly trending steeply downhill.

Translation: "I realize now that I made a mistake, but I'm not man enough to admit and apologize. And now I'm going to run off weeping and then go and sulk in my PalmSource cubicle."

1. I only just stepped off a plane 9 am Sunday morning, after having left the other side of the Pacific at 4 pm the same day. So if my sense of time is a bit off, you're just gonna have to live with it.

Is that how you admit you were wrong, David? Shame.

Find your own ramen place next time.

Wow. Did your panties get all knotted up again? Good. Too bad the knots won't affect you, since you don't have any cojones.

2. I know much better places in Ottawa, or at the very least, places I'm certain I'd prefer. Last year, I discovered a small place, well out of the way of traps like Byward Market, newly opened, serving a very unique "Native-American-inspired" cuisine. Know the place...?

I hope for your sake that it's not that so-called bistro where one of the staff was allegedly urinating in the stock last year. "The white man has stolen our land"... so now I'm going to get my revenge by pi$$ing in his food. (How clever.)

I'll definitely be going there again.

Just remember to not eat any yellow snow... or anything else there for that matter if you happen to see someone walking out of the kitchen with a big chip on their shoulder.

And it's not as though your benevolence and concern for the well-being of others has been so impressive that I'm itching to take dining recommendations from you. I don't even like (Eastern) Indian food.

Your loss. You should try to expand your culinary horizons a little beyond the regular rotation of Kraft Dinner, Top Ramen and Big Macs that presumably forms the bulk of your diet.

3. Having studied French in high school and college for a total of about seven years, worked for Crédit Lyonnais for two, and being fluent enough to manage quite well, thanks, in France doesn't help you all that much with Québeçois, which is a French more or less frozen in time, like around 1704. Even native French speakers have difficulties managing in Quebec. In any case, I'll "mangle" all the French I feel like, mon petit, vilain espèce de cafard.

As usual, you continue to amaze with your savant-like ability to be defensive, pouty, petty, pretentious and obnoxious all up the same time. It's nice to see that you appropriated the snotty attitude that Parisian French have towards the Québecois. It's a shame that you have also copied the Parisian French's aversion towards soap and water. Tant pis, mon ami. Hope you enjoy your Freedom Fries with your Big Mac.

I was right the first time: you contributed more with your absence that you did with your presence.

That... really... hurts... me... David.

I always wondered what would happen to Emo Kids that got older. After seeing you, now I know. It's not a pretty sight.


Ki o tsukete

TVoR

Reply to this comment

Goodbye Palm GUI...you'll be missed

Foo Fighter @ 2/22/2006 2:00:39 PM # Q
Well there we have it..if this is indeed MAX UI represented in these screenshots. The earlier reports were true; MAX will scarcely bear any resemblance to the classic Palm GUI that makes the experience, and sets this OS apart from all others. Now we have what may be a cartoonish interface with ghastly designed, gaudy icons and widgets. Not to mention that navigation metaphor has apparently been ripped out as well. It's hard to say what the new navigation scheme is based on these vague screenshots, but I don't much hope from here on out.

-------------------------------
Editor, http://Pocketfactory.com
RE: Goodbye Palm GUI...you'll be missed
Gekko @ 2/22/2006 2:19:40 PM # Q

Don't you like the big Wrench???



RE: Goodbye Palm GUI...you'll be missed
Gekko @ 2/22/2006 2:27:08 PM # Q

This actually makes WM's GUI look GOOD!!!



RE: Goodbye Palm GUI...you'll be missed
Foo Fighter @ 2/22/2006 2:28:55 PM # Q
It's really hard to decipher what it is we're actually looking at, but I think it's a safe bet this is MAX, or at least some elements to it, like the Media Player app. What I still can't make heads or tails of is what navigation method Access chose. I see a Home icon in one of the screenshots, but it's obscurely located in the upper toolbar. And I see repetitive email icons and god knows what else going on in the background. If this is what the new GUI is going to look like, then a lot of Palm users are going to be buying old Palms on eBay for many years to come. This GUI looks terribly amateurish. Cripes, I think my GUI-concept mockup screenshots looks better than this...and that was something I slapped together in less than twenty minutes!

-------------------------------
Editor, http://Pocketfactory.com
RE: Goodbye Palm GUI...you'll be missed
PenguinPowered @ 2/22/2006 2:29:46 PM # Q
I don't think any of it is MAX. I suspect that most of it is mLinux. The pictures, to my eye look like:

1) A launcher
2) A GtK+ minesweep program, as advertised
3) A native ap -- read, something from mLinux.
4) The Notepad thingie we've already seen

Except the icons in the launcher, I don't think there's anything from MAX here.

May You Live in Interesting Times

RE: Goodbye Palm GUI...you'll be missed
Gekko @ 2/22/2006 2:34:02 PM # Q

if this is ZEN, i don't want it!



RE: Goodbye Palm GUI...you'll be missed
Foo Fighter @ 2/22/2006 2:39:04 PM # Q
> "1) A launcher
2) A GtK+ minesweep program, as advertised
3) A native ap -- read, something from mLinux.
4) The Notepad thingie we've already seen"

I think you missed number 5: POSE, which would seem to imply this is indeed ALP represented in the screenshots. Unles PalmOS emulation is being built into mLinux?



-------------------------------
Editor, http://Pocketfactory.com

RE: Goodbye Palm GUI...you'll be missed
Foo Fighter @ 2/22/2006 2:41:14 PM # Q
> "if this is ZEN, i don't want it!"

ZEN? Hell, this isn't even feng shui.

-------------------------------
Editor, http://Pocketfactory.com

RE: Goodbye Palm GUI...you'll be missed
PenguinPowered @ 2/22/2006 2:47:28 PM # Q
I think #4 is POSE. I should have made that clear. "Notepad thingie" is Notepad on top of POSE, if I guess right.


May You Live in Interesting Times

RE: Goodbye Palm GUI...you'll be missed
Foo Fighter @ 2/22/2006 2:53:11 PM # Q
> "I think #4 is POSE. I should have made that clear. "Notepad thingie" is Notepad on top of POSE, if I guess right."

Actually I was referring to the first image which depicts a primary menu screen, listing various environments like gTK. If you look at the first icon, it reads POS, which I assume to be POSE. Or perhaps that represents something else. But I think that's POSE.

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Editor, http://Pocketfactory.com

RE: Goodbye Palm GUI...you'll be missed
LiveFaith @ 2/22/2006 3:19:23 PM # Q
All based on any of this going retail ...

That first picture gives some strong indications about how seamless the various platforms will be supported. Some were hoping that the OS would seemlessly run a POS or Linux app without the user ever really realizing it. That launchers look like a central point to get to the various platforms supported.

Maybe that is only an optional way to handle / manage apps. But, if this is the manner in which users will access an app, then it's quite underwhelming.

Glad to have the pix tho.

Q: Maybe this has been answered, but I am yet to read it. Do we know if the POSE will actually handle OS5 and the myriad of FrankyG apps?

Pat Horne; www.churchoflivingfaith.com

RE: Goodbye Palm GUI...you'll be missed
AdamaDBrown @ 2/22/2006 3:21:28 PM # Q
As far as I can tell, this is not same product that's made by CMS. Screenshots of that are hard to come by, but I did find this:

http://www.telecomwereld.nl/pic/news/206/mfone.jpg

It depicts a considerably different UI that what we're seeing here.

RE: Goodbye Palm GUI...you'll be missed
dagwud @ 2/22/2006 4:24:57 PM # Q
On the original Russian article, the caption of the photo showing Memo Pad translates something like this (please pardon my rusty Russian).

"In addition to starting a Palm OS program with the help of an emulator (in the photo above, you see the familiar program Memo), it is possible to start GTK Linux-applications, for which recompilaton is required (an example in the photo below - Sapper)."

The article concludes noting that the SDK will be out at the end of the year and the first handhelds will be out next year. I particularly like the point made that the company should hurry up because "the market won't stand in place". heh.

--
PalmPilot Pro (1997) -> III (1998) -> Vx (1999) -> m500 (2001) -> m515 (2002) -> ???

RE: Goodbye Palm GUI...you'll be missed
PenguinPowered @ 2/22/2006 4:35:09 PM # Q
That's an '04 image of mFone, the product CMS had before they did their Linux version. Doesn't tell us anything either way.

May You Live in Interesting Times
RE: Goodbye Palm GUI...you'll be missed
Foo Fighter @ 2/22/2006 5:02:39 PM # Q
This really cannot be mLinux, PP. This is clearly the same phone shown in previous leaked screenshots reported earlier, and we know that phone was running ALP.

-------------------------------
Editor, http://Pocketfactory.com
RE: Goodbye Palm GUI...you'll be missed
PenguinPowered @ 2/22/2006 5:09:14 PM # Q
Gah, I've been confusing. Sorry. Let me amplify:

The phone is a Haier N60. It is known to run mLinux, as that's the OS it was released with. So, one of two things is true:

1) It's the same phone, running the same mLinux kernel, but with the various ALP bits -- which is what I mean by 'mLinux' -- sorry for not being clear.

or

2) It's the same phone, running a different linux kernel, but with the various ALP bits -- which is possible, but which would surprise me slightly.

and I think the media player ap is simply an mLinux ap running on the mLinux kernel. It might be another media player, of course, in which case it would be a MAX ap, but I doubt that even more.


May You Live in Interesting Times

RE: Goodbye Palm GUI...you'll be missed
KultiVator @ 2/22/2006 5:53:49 PM # Q
FooFighter wrote:

>This is clearly the same phone shown in previous
>leaked screenshots reported earlier, and we know
>that phone was running ALP.

Hey guys, if ALP isn't going to be available in devices until 2007, don't you think that it's fair to say that these screenshots do not represent ALP, but instead some embryonic technologies that might find their way into ALP. If it was ready for prime-time, don't you think the launch dates would be kind of nowish? I'm sure the Access organisation isn't holding us off until 2007 for the fun of it - they're in the business of making money and I for one am optimistic because they are not rushing something half-baked to market.

Struth, even my non-techie wife thinks you're being a tad unrealistic expecting a platform that's a year off to look half decent!

Duh!


DescrimiNator

RE: Goodbye Palm GUI...you'll be missed
Gekko @ 2/22/2006 9:47:43 PM # Q

And in the long run, we'll all be dead.



RE: Goodbye Palm GUI...you'll be missed
Foo Fighter @ 2/22/2006 11:45:38 PM # Q
> "don't you think that it's fair to say that these screenshots do not represent ALP, but instead some embryonic technologies that might find their way into ALP."

It remains unclear exactly what these images depict until further verification is made. So you're conclusion is purely speculation.

-------------------------------
Editor, http://Pocketfactory.com

RE: Goodbye Palm GUI...you'll be missed
LiveFaith @ 2/23/2006 12:30:24 AM # Q
So what did Access pay $300M for? StyleTap for Linux?

Pat Horne; www.churchoflivingfaith.com
RE: Goodbye Palm GUI...you'll be missed
twrock @ 2/23/2006 12:53:08 AM # Q
So what did Access pay $300M for?

I think you have to look outside the US borders. CMS had to be a large part of the appeal.

It might not be the "mythical color HandEra", but I'm liking my TX anyway.

Access paid $320 MILLION for StyleTap for Linux. What a deal
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 2/23/2006 4:46:23 AM # Q
So what did Access pay $300M for? StyleTap for Linux?

No, they paid $320 MILLION for StyleTap for Linux.

Unless NetFrontLinux is going to be free (or nearly free), having the China MobileSoft division is NOT going to suddenly open up the Chinese market for Access.


TVoR

------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

RE: Goodbye Palm GUI...you'll be missed
Wolfgard @ 2/23/2006 8:48:13 AM # Q
Actually, the GUI looks quite similar to those on GSPDA's PalmOS phones.

pen & paper -> m515 -> Zire72 -> TH55 & Handera 330
Reply to this comment

Fake

Gekko @ 2/22/2006 2:14:22 PM # Q

Obvious .gif file. This is just more Nagel-esque smoke and mirrors.

New Palm OS Codename: "Capricorn One".

http://us.imdb.com/title/tt0077294/



RE: Fake
PenguinPowered @ 2/22/2006 2:32:33 PM # Q
Neil Armstrong once made a comment about the Capricorn one crackpot theory that seems relevant here: "Given the technology available, it was easier to do it than to fake it."

I think everything is as it appears to be. (see above.) I also think there's no MAX there.


May You Live in Interesting Times

RE: Fake
Gekko @ 2/22/2006 2:38:07 PM # Q

>"Given the technology available, it was easier to do it than to fake it."

Funny, that's what Nagel said about Cobalt.



RE: Fake
PenguinPowered @ 2/22/2006 2:40:03 PM # Q
and they made it.

Cobalt's problem was not that it was fake. It really did exist, at least in Nov '05, and was stable enough to use on a smart phone.

I wasn't around long enough to know why PSRC was unable to convince licensees to use it,

One thing I will say is that these photos pretty much demonstrate that Cobalt really is dead and that "PalmLinux" as I was working on it really is dead. And then, there's what's left of PalmOS: POSE.

May You Live in Interesting Times

RE: Fake
AdamaDBrown @ 2/22/2006 3:19:12 PM # Q
I saw that movie. As I recall, it sucked.

I think these screenshots are real, though what they depict is questionable.

RE: Fake
JJ @ 2/22/2006 6:25:24 PM # Q
The pictures are real. They are the same that I sow at 3GSM in Barcelona.

Regards,
--------------------------
PDAExpertos.com
www.pdaexpertos.com
RE: Fake
JJ @ 2/22/2006 6:41:04 PM # Q
The first image in this news is the default launcher of the phone.

I also sow a demo of an incoming call with the mp3 player playing in background. The incoming call popups a small centered-in-the-screen window with a picture from the caller and some command buttons. The popup window had the MAX interface, with 3D effects and rounded corners.

Please, take into account that this ALP demo (pictures) was phone-centric because the demo device was a smartphone ;)

Regards,
--------------------------
PDAExpertos.com
www.pdaexpertos.com

Reply to this comment

UI redesigned for small smartphone screens...

Surur @ 2/22/2006 2:50:23 PM # Q

... not large PDA screens. For native Max apps the UI will look very simplified, with large clear icons and lots of wasted space. The look is obviously by design.

Surur

They said I only argued for the sake of arguing, but after an hour I convinced them they were wrong...

RE: UI redesigned for small smartphone screens...
LiveFaith @ 2/22/2006 3:14:48 PM # Q
surur,

That screen looks to have an aspect ratio more like 240x320 than 320x480. Didn't pull out the ruler and claculator tho. Surely they will be working to make the platform umbrella across the various standard displays ... QVGA & VGA, HVGA, the squares and the various smartfone rezs.


Pat Horne; www.churchoflivingfaith.com

RE: UI redesigned for small smartphone screens...
Surur @ 2/22/2006 4:27:27 PM # Q

The aspect ratio is definitely (in photoshop) 0.75 (240x320), not .66 (320x480) or 1 (320x320).

Surur

They said I only argued for the sake of arguing, but after an hour I convinced them they were wrong...

RE: UI redesigned for small smartphone screens...
marcol @ 2/22/2006 5:44:31 PM # Q
Haier N60 is supposedly 240 x 320

http://linuxdevices.com/news/NS6676362361.html

Reply to this comment

Simply Palm oh, wait, no...

legodude522 @ 2/22/2006 3:12:33 PM # Q
Simply Access.

Palm m125 December 25, 2002 to March 24 2004 > palmOne Zire 71 March 24, 2004 to March 31, 2005. Tapwave Zodiac 1 April 18, 2005 to November 2, 2005 > palmOne Zire 72 November 2, 2005 to present
Reply to this comment

Eng version

iru @ 2/22/2006 5:27:08 PM # Q
This is an English version of the Mobile-review’s article:
http://mobile-review.com/exhibition/3gsm-wmsimb-2006-en.shtml

Nice line...
Surur @ 2/22/2006 6:00:46 PM # Q
... from the article

Everything (only thing?) that is left from the old Palm OS ability to launch software written for it. Calling new OS Palm OS's successor is a really illogical thing to do, with the same amount of success you can call Windows Mobile with installed StypeTap emulator successor of Palm OS. The new OS from Access is OS based on Linux Core, with its own UI and Palm OS emulator.

Surur

They said I only argued for the sake of arguing, but after an hour I convinced them they were wrong...

RE: Eng version
dagwud @ 2/22/2006 7:33:27 PM # Q
"Everything (only thing?), that is left..."

They directly translated, but the meaning in English is off. It's closer to translate it as "All that is left from the old Palm OS is the ability to launch software written for it."

Russian doesn't use a present tense "is", so you have to infer it when necessary. Their translater didn't.

--
PalmPilot Pro (1997) -> III (1998) -> Vx (1999) -> m500 (2001) -> m515 (2002) -> ???

Reply to this comment

POS? uh-oh

Scott R @ 2/22/2006 8:47:04 PM # Q
I hope there's enough Americans still working at the company so as to advise them not to use "POS" in the icon for accessing legacy Palm OS apps.

http://Tapland.com
- Tapwave Zodiac News, Reviews, & Discussion -
RE: POS? uh-oh
Lungboy @ 2/23/2006 9:21:27 AM # Q
Lol, that was the first thing I thought of when I saw the screenshots.

Much akin to the earlier Microsoft devices being refered to as "wince" rather than "Win CE"

I think Access was just hoping that the loyal developer base would convert to their FrankenOS with the aquisition of PSRC. Having legacy Palm apps only accessable via a launchable emulator will break alot of programs with native support of the PIM apps and responding to launch codes etc.

Each company will have to decide if it's worth it to rebuild their applications the new OS. With an Palm emulator on Windows Mobile, they're now on equal ground with MS... without the userbase.

But time will tell though.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Eagles may soar but at least weasles don't get sucked into jet engines.

Reply to this comment

The *REAL* future Palm OS...

Scott R @ 2/22/2006 8:49:04 PM # Q
...will be whatever Palm chooses it to be. Now that they own the rights to the Palm name, they could call WM5 + their fancified Today screen Palm OS 6 if they so desired.

I'm still wondering if they might be working on their own next-gen OS/GUI. Surely they can't be dumb enough to think that they'll be able to continue making fat profits in the WM world where there will be 100 other licensees, many of whom will be making Treo lookalikes with the same degree of one-handed functionality thanks to Microsoft making that available to everyone.

http://Tapland.com
- Tapwave Zodiac News, Reviews, & Discussion -

RE: The *REAL* future Palm OS...
Foo Fighter @ 2/22/2006 9:16:37 PM # Q
> "...I'm still wondering if they might be working on their own next-gen OS/GUI.

Not if Ken Wirt and Ed Colligan are to be believed. Both have reiterated that Palm is now a solutions provider, layering its own custom software over OTHER operating systems. The future of Palm is what you see now in the Treo 700w. People seem to forget that Palm is a very small firm. They don't have the development dollars or staff to invest internally in a major new platform. And what benefit would it offer the market (or Palm's customers) to have for them to offer yet another proprietary operating system in an already crowded field, with zero application support out the gate? What would be the point?

Ken Wirt was quoted as saying that at some point in the future Palm would like to settle on ONE platform. Any bets on which one that may be? Give you a hint...If you said PalmOS you'd be wrong.

Palm is only interested in selling hardware, that is what their business model is based upon. They simply layer their own middleware and software customizations on top of other platforms.

> "Surely they can't be dumb enough to think that they'll be able to continue making fat profits in the WM world where there will be 100 other licensees, many of whom will be making Treo lookalikes with the same degree of one-handed functionality thanks to Microsoft making that available to everyone."

Well Palm certainly can't be any dumber by hedging its bets on PalmOS, which is a dying platform with a sketchy future. And who says Palm can't make money in the Windows Mobile camp? They stand to make a hell of a lot more money from investing in a growing platform that gains global market share every year...as apposed to investing in a shrinking (and aging) platform that's on its last legs and losing market share annually. It's up to Palm to differentiate itself (in a good way) from other WM licensees.

-------------------------------
Editor, http://Pocketfactory.com

RE: The *REAL* future Palm OS...
Gekko @ 2/22/2006 9:46:29 PM # Q

>Palm is now a solutions provider, layering its own custom software over OTHER operating systems.

I'm OK with this. Put the PalmGUI over WINCE/WM and I'm happy.



RE: The *REAL* future Palm OS...
AdamaDBrown @ 2/23/2006 1:42:16 AM # Q
I think that they would be stupid not to have some kind of independent platform cooking, if only to keep in reserve as a hedge against dependancy on Microsoft.

Then again, I thought it would be stupid of them to stick with the same old OS for four years. So I could be wrong.

RE: The *REAL* future Palm OS...
Gekko @ 2/23/2006 8:08:49 AM # Q

It's too late for PalmOS as we know it.

Let's hope for PalmGUI layered over WINCE/WM. Let's hope WM6 *IS* PalmOS6.



RE: The *REAL* future Palm OS...
Foo Fighter @ 2/23/2006 9:13:02 AM # Q
> "I think that they would be stupid not to have some kind of independent platform cooking."

I strongly disagree; it would be painfully foolish of them to move in that direction. A direction, I might add, they've spent the last five years moving away from. By becoming a proprietary platform provider they make a 360 degree turn and go back to where they came from. That in itself is a mistake purely from a strategic standpoint, but then you have costs to factor in. One of the reason why Palm has sustained profitability is because, under the current business model, they are a lean operation with little overhead, and no costly OS development infrastructure to support. They do of course have their own in-house software development team, albeit small, that covers IP like VersaMail and so on. But that's a far cry from supporting a bloated R&D budget with TEAMS of high paid OS developers.

Then you have the basic fact that the market doesn't need yet another proprietary platform...especially one with no developer support. Palm's independent platform would be the proverbial solution looking for a problem. The smart play, if Palm was so inclined to avoid becoming too entangled with WinMobile, would be to adopt some variation of mobile Linux. Contract Wind River to do the grunt work, hire another software firm to design the custom software layer and APIs. Then Palm can do up a pretty interface and provide its world class ease of use and customizations. Hey...why does that sound familiar? Alas, PalmSource made the right move...but they did it far too late.

-------------------------------
Editor, http://Pocketfactory.com

RE: The *REAL* future Palm OS...
Scott R @ 2/23/2006 11:05:41 AM # Q
"I'm OK with this. Put the PalmGUI over WINCE/WM and I'm happy."

In fact, that's along the lines of the idea I presented in this thread at TreoCentral:
http://discuss.treocentral.com/showthread.php?t=105532

Basically, Palm could add their own UI (not necessarily Palm-like, preferably something all-new) on top of CE.NET. They're already gaining experience with .NET and Gates could care less whether the world standardizes on WM, all he cares about is that he's getting a licensing fee. Palm could provide a nice SDK to plug into VS.NET and they'd have their own OS/GUI platform again, rather than compete against so many other WM licensees.

http://Tapland.com
- Tapwave Zodiac News, Reviews, & Discussion -

RE: The *REAL* future Palm OS...
Foo Fighter @ 2/23/2006 1:14:46 PM # Q
> "Basically, Palm could add their own UI (not necessarily Palm-like, preferably something all-new) on top of CE.NET. They're already gaining experience with .NET and Gates could care less whether the world standardizes on WM, all he cares about is that he's getting a licensing fee. Palm could provide a nice SDK to plug into VS.NET and they'd have their own OS/GUI platform again, rather than compete against so many other WM licensees."

Definitely a possibility. But they lose the advantage of having compatibility with native Windows Mobile applications, like Skype for example. By creating their own custom OS on top of .Net, Palm would have to, once again, assume the role of platform developer...and I'm not convinced Palm has any intention of going back to this business model which they strove to get away from these many years.

But there are a LOT of advantages in moving a new OS on top of .Net though. So it would be a strong feather in Palm's cap, and give them a lot of street cred in corporate environments.

-------------------------------
Editor, http://Pocketfactory.com

RE: The *REAL* future Palm OS...
Gekko @ 2/23/2006 1:55:58 PM # Q

no - what im talking about what has already been done with the 700w. have Palm, Inc. take some of their GUI ideas from the PalmOS Palms, and have MSFT roll those ideas into new versions of WM for EVERYONE. i think MSFT is allowing Palm to help them polish up new versions of WM and we will all benefit.

PalmOS 6 *IS* WM6. (I hope)

Reply to this comment

It Could Be Worse...

Gekko @ 2/22/2006 9:49:28 PM # Q

http://tommcmahon.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/rex3.jpg

http://images-p.qvc.com/is/image/e/34/e134734.001?$proddetailmain$

http://www.theregister.co.uk/media/1262.png



RE: It Could Be Worse...
Foo Fighter @ 2/22/2006 10:15:43 PM # Q
Oh God no! Not the hideous TrollTech Qtopia GUI again! One thing I do love about QTopia is that it beautifully illustrates the rampant hypocrisy within the Linux community. Many years ago Windows CE was condemned for its banal and sloppily designed shrunken Win95 desktop interface, which was deemed inappropriate for tiny screens. But yet its "OK" for Linux to use a squashed (and even more convoluted) Gnome-like UI for small handheld devices. Nope, no double standard there.

QT/Opie is exponentially WORSE than WinCE's old Win95 desktop metaphor. It's ugly, clumsy, poorly designed, and downright amateurish. TrollTech, please get out of this business and leave user interface design to companies that actually know how to design good software. Your making mobile devices look bad.

-------------------------------
Editor, http://Pocketfactory.com

RE: It Could Be Worse...
PenguinPowered @ 2/23/2006 3:28:52 AM # Q
What company is good at UI design? Apple got lucky once, by stealing from xerox, and PalmOS was fine for a very simple device with a certain kind of display, but has anyone really designed a good UI since smalltalk?

May You Live in Interesting Times
D UI
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 2/23/2006 4:56:10 AM # Q
What company is good at UI design? Apple got lucky once, by stealing from xerox, and PalmOS was fine for a very simple device with a certain kind of display, but has anyone really designed a good UI since smalltalk?

Paul Mercer (Pixo)/Synaptics/Apple = iPod UI

Handspring's Treo 600 UI (lumping this in with the original PalmOS would be rude)

As far as OSes go one could argue the relative merits of these:
- BeOS
- OS/2
- MacOS X
- EPOC (on some PSION models)
- Windows XP


BMW iDrive (designed by A. Krauk Headde)

TVoR


------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

RE: It Could Be Worse...
KultiVator @ 2/23/2006 7:16:51 AM # Q
>> BMW iDrive (designed by A. Krauk Headde)

The UK motoring press are BMW crazy - but even they say that iDrive is too complex, fiddly and distracting for use whilst driving, as it hampers, rather than helping the driver.

Kind of like the WinMob5 experience really.

And BMW are becoming pig-ugly, first the 5-series and now the 3-series - they are complete bush-pigs IMHO.

Kind of like the WinMob5 UI then!


RefrigaRator

RE: It Could Be Worse...
Gekko @ 2/23/2006 8:06:29 AM # Q

iDrive sucks. nobody can touch Lexus Technology/Navigation systems.



RE: It Could Be Worse...
Foo Fighter @ 2/23/2006 9:32:46 AM # Q
Ah...BeOS. That OS was the very first "alternative" platform I used outside of Mac and Windows that I fell in love with. Linux (or rather KDE/Gnome), in my experience, has always been a clunky and ugly desktop environment. But BeOS had what Linux lacked...simplicity, elegance, and generally warm and friendly experience. I've always said if the BeOS GUI had been layered on top of Linux it would have driven the Penguin onto more desktops much sooner, instead of the slow crawl it has been.

Though I wasn't too keen on Be's tabbed Windows, you have to admit the desktop interface was clean and elegant...and highly customizable. That was its beauty; you could make it look like Mac or Windows. By default the application launcher was housed in a floating palette. But you could drag and stretch that anywhere; to the bottom of your screen (ala Windows), or at the top (ala MacOS). It was awesome (was being the operative word.)

It's really is a pity BeOS befell the fate that it did. I'm not sure Palm couldn't have made a ton of money licensing the Be GUI and software layer for use on Linux? Oh well, no sense crying over spilled Gin.

-------------------------------
Editor, http://Pocketfactory.com

RE: It Could Be Worse...
Scott R @ 2/23/2006 11:10:05 AM # Q
BeOS' main strength was not with their UI, IMO, (though the UI wasn't bad by any means). Their real strength was with what was under the covers: an OS built for the 20th century with all of the buzz-words in modern OS and file structure theory present and capable of eeking out every bit of performance from Intel's chips. Of course, with an all-new OS comes the need to create custom device drivers for everything, which was what hurt them the most.

As for good UI's, I have a feeling we'll see some of the other feature-phone companies come up with some compelling interfaces. I'm seeing some very creative and usable aspects of some of the UIs in PMPs, the PSP and DS, etc. (though there's a lot of bad stuff there, too).

http://Tapland.com
- Tapwave Zodiac News, Reviews, & Discussion -

You guys have no taste.
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 2/23/2006 12:34:11 PM # Q
I can't believe you're knocking BMW iDrive (designed by A. Krauk Headde).

[Say it out loud, Kiddies.]


;-O


Gold, Baby. Pure GOLD!


TVoR

------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

RE: It Could Be Worse...
hkklife @ 2/23/2006 12:40:09 PM # Q
Gekko is right...all of the German car companies' knob-driven navi/ICE systems blow big time. Audi's MM interface is probably the best of the three but that's like saying that Garnet 5.5 is going to be more stable than 5.4. Lexus and Toyota, touchscreen smears aside, definitely have the best nav systems at the MOMENT. That's liable to change any given model year. Does anyone know who the OEM supplier is for that unit?

I think the iPod just takes the cake for UI out of all of the recent devices. Surprisingly, some of the new Sony TVs are pretty decent too but that's again a very low bar to overcome. The PSP has a nice scrolling UI upon first glance but it's not very intuitive. As Sony keeps piling on feature after feature it's only going to get more cumbersome.

One interface I DETESTED was the Zodiac's "hub" system.

Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5-->TX

RE: It Could Be Worse...
Gekko @ 2/23/2006 1:53:55 PM # Q
BMW iDrive ROCKS YOUR WORLD!!!
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 2/24/2006 10:10:33 PM # Q
BMW iDrive (designed by a crack head).


;-O


7 Series, 5 Series, 3 Series, Z4: ALL HIDEOUS!

Lexus and Acura (and even Infinti, with its fabulous G35 coupe) make BMW look like crap thesr days.

Anyone buying a BMW 3 Series instead of a Lexus IS 350 is a fool.

TVoR

------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

BMW iDrive & Treo
Admin @ 3/12/2006 4:17:45 PM # Q
Reply to this comment

Even more ALPOs Screenshots ... Very interesting!

LiveFaith @ 2/23/2006 10:20:14 AM # Q
I don't know if Ryan has got these ready to put up yet, but more Access Linux (ALPOs) screenshots have surfaced. I am not believing this! If Access is for real this is going to be the "Mother of All OS Battles"!

http://www.palminfocenter.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=168671


Pat Horne; www.churchoflivingfaith.com

RE: Even more ALPOs Screenshots ... Very interesting!
SeldomVisitor @ 2/23/2006 10:34:57 AM # Q
Giggle.

Shocker!!!
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 2/23/2006 12:28:25 PM # Q
Does the wrench represent the Commodore 64 OS? Or is it Atari?

Please replace the wrench icon with the REAL OS logo it represents, Reverend. (BeOS? Amiga? OS/2? Inquiring minds want to know.) I can't wait for the "Revelations" when we finally see the name of this Beast of an OS, Pat.

TVoR

------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

RE: Even more ALPOs Screenshots ... Very interesting!
LiveFaith @ 2/24/2006 11:58:14 AM # Q
Oh gosh! There's more and yes the wrench image is replaceable. I cant read Chinese, but the site translator said something about the image of the visionary of the OSes core principles. Whatever?

http://www.palminfocenter.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30210

Maybe Gekko can figure out who it is?

Pat Horne; www.churchoflivingfaith.com

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