MobileInfocenter

More Details on the ACCESS Linux Platform

PalmInfocenter had a chance to speak with Albert Chu, VP of Business Development at PalmSource who provided some additional details about the newly announced ACCESS Linux Platform. Read on for the full article.

The ACCESS Linux Platform is the next mobile software platform from PalmSource. It has its roots in the Palm OS for Linux project. ALP is a combination of a number of technologies including Palm OS for Linux, Palm OS Cobalt, the NetFront Browser and a number of open source projects.

Linux is the core of the new platform and ALP is based on the version 2.6.12 of the Linux kernel. ALP contains a large number of programming options for developers. There are four main options available:

  • MAX Applications (the native ALP interface)
  • Palm OS Emulation layer
  • GTK+ (native linux like environment)
  • J2ME (Java Virtual Machine)

Before you get used to saying the ACCESS Linux program or ALP, keep in mind this is not the final name of the operating system. ALP and MAX are both still working code names for the platform.

MAX
The main new user interface is the MAX application framework. It is said to preserve the "zen of palm" intuitive and easy to use user experience. It will support both traditional one handed phone operation (with a 5-way navigator and two dedicated soft keys) and touch-screen and stylus based systems. MAX will finally bring multitasking and concurrent applications to the Palm OS faithful. It fully supports multiple applications and background tasks.

All of the pre-installed ALP applications will use MAX. This includes updated "more modern" versions of the PalmSource PIM suite, multimedia and messaging applications. MAX is the main preferred developer framework that PalmSource wants developers to take advantage of.

Palm OS Emulation
ALP has been designed to ensure that properly written Palm OS 68K applications will run unchanged. PalmSource wants to give current Palm OS developers and easy route to ALP and backwards compatibility with the vast Palm OS library is a no brainer. PalmSource states that "well behaved" Palm OS applications will operate fine under the emulation layer without any modification.

GTK+
Developers will also be able to write native Linux applications using GTK+ and GStreamer libraries. Both are open source components widely used by many existing Linux applications. Other major open source components include SQLite, a high-performance database engine, and BlueZ, which will provide a Bluetooth 2.0 compliant software stack. PalmSource will be providing development tools to enable third party Linux apps and services to be easily ported and created on ALP.

PalmSource is also including Java J2ME compatibility, which is widely used in many of today's feature phones by manufacturers.

Access Linux Platform Schema

ALP will feature a new application launcher that will include each type of application. The launcher will be MAX based, but will give a common uniform interface for launching each type of application regardless of the type of program. ALP will also feature keyboard and handwriting recognition, though I could not get a confirmation on whether it will use Graffiti or not.

The platform will also include the NetFront web browser from ACCESS. NetFront 3.4 will include support for RSS, AJAX technologies and new plug-ins that will allow the browser to display PDF Files, office documents and videos.

The ACCESS Linux Platform will have a application signature and verification system, though by itself ALP will support open applications. It will be up to the operator or device manufacturer whether to enforce or require signed applications.

PalmSource has been working together with ACCESS on ALP for the past three months. The work is being done as a team effort by all of PalmSource's different branches along with ACCESS. Most of the UI work is being done in Sunnyvale, CMS in Nanjing is doing a lot of kernel and application work and PalmSource's French office in Montpelier is concentrating on the communications development.

PalmSource also plans to contribute more technologies to the open source community. It has already released OpenBinder, a component object framework for mobile devices. OpenBinder was developed for Palm OS Cobalt and was originally acquired from the Be OS purchase. PalmSource is also an active member of the mobile Linux community and is heavily involved with groups such as the OSDL (Open Source Development Labs) and LIPS (Linux Phone Standards Forum).

Before the acquisition, PalmSource had announced that they were working on two different branches of Palm OS for Linux. There was going to be a high end version for smartphones and a separate build optimized for feature phones. These plans have been dropped and regrouped around ALP, which will only come in one general version. Operators and device manufacturers will have the flexibility to incorporate or specify what features they want to include in devices. ChinaMobileSoft still sells a version of mLinux in China that powers many lower end feature phones there, but PalmSource has no plans to globalize that product.

PalmSource pledged they will continue to provide support for Palm OS Garnet as long as their is a customer need for it. However, no further work is being done around Garnet by PalmSource.

Mr. Chu said he expects devices running ALP to reach the market sometime in 2007. PalmSource's official release says they expect to make the ALP software developer kit available by the end of 2006. This SDK will be for top licensees and software developers to being work on ALP products. A product developer kit or PDK will be following shortly after for all licensees.

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Netfront!

legodude522 @ 2/17/2006 2:33:56 AM # Q
Netfront! Awesome.

ALP coming in 2007? But but what am I going to do with my Sharp Zaurus running Linux? I know :-) Install ALP on my Zaurus. hehe. Too early to tell.

I predict a bright future for Palm OS!

Palm m125 December 25, 2002 to March 24 2004 > palmOne Zire 71 March 24, 2004 to March 31, 2005. Tapwave Zodiac 1 April 18, 2005 to November 2, 2005 > palmOne Zire 72 November 2, 2005 to present

Reply to this comment

Palm OS "emulator"?

PenguinPowered @ 2/17/2006 2:43:10 AM # Q
Not PACE, an actual "emulator"?

Hmm.... POSE Lives!

It's really naive to have specified the kernel at 2.6.12. There's already stuff in 2.6.16 they're going to want, and a year from now, the linux community will probably be on 2.6.20-something.



May You Live in Interesting Times

RE: Palm OS
Admin @ 2/17/2006 3:43:12 AM # Q
well Albert refereed to Palm OS compatibility as an "emulation layer" and if you look at that ALP schema chart is says "Palm OS (68k) Emulator".
You GOTTA be kidding me!
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 2/17/2006 5:09:28 AM # Q
well Albert refereed to Palm OS compatibility as an "emulation layer" and if you look at that ALP schema chart is says "Palm OS (68k) Emulator".

And the "PalmOS Emulator" is sitting on top of the Linux module of this ComponentOS. POSE-clone on Linux??? That would be about as crude a solution as Copilot CE was for running PalmOS apps on WinCE devices 6 years ago!

Please tell me this is a joke.

TVoR


------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

RE: Palm OS
freakout @ 2/17/2006 5:37:34 AM # Q
Isn't PACE itself an emulator of sorts?

Tim Carroll
Your friendly customer service robot
(and big Treo fan)
PalmOS emulation is not enough!
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 2/17/2006 5:44:13 AM # Q
Isn't PACE itself an emulator of sorts?


Not really. It's more of a translator than an emulator.

http://www.palmos.com/dev/support/docs/palmos5/os5overview.html#pace

------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

RE: Palm OS
freakout @ 2/17/2006 6:48:27 AM # Q
Interesting link - thanks.

From further down the page:
"Native ARM Code Support

Nearly all Palm OS 5 application development is done with the existing 68k-oriented development environments, and the resulting PRCs contain only 68k code. This enables usage of existing, mature toolsets. Early versions of new toolchains are expected to be available in 2002 which will enable full native ARM application development for future Palm OS releases, but during the transition period of Palm OS hardware to ARM, application developers should nearly always focus on writing 68k applications which will work on ARM hardware via PACE."

So even though Palms have had ARMS for ages, most Palm apps don't even use them to their full capacity? Weird.

Tim Carroll
Your friendly customer service robot
(and big Treo fan)

RE: Palm OS
cervezas @ 2/17/2006 8:53:44 AM # Q
So even though Palms have had ARMS for ages, most Palm apps don't even use them to their full capacity? Weird.

Exactly. We developers haven't really been able to write ARM native applications because Palm only gave us very limited capabilities and tools to do so. We were expected to keep using the old API and to let our apps run in 68k compatibility mode. The big deal about Cobalt for developers was that our apps would finally compile to ARM native executables.

ALP, like Cobalt, is enabling (and encouraging) developers to start writing native code, but also will enable most of the old apps to run in the 68k emulated mode.

I was relieved to read that all the built-in apps will be written or rewritten in the MAX API. The success of this platform is going to ride on the success of the MAX framework.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

Will OS 5 apps with ARM work?
rsc1000 @ 2/17/2006 7:43:18 PM # Q
>>So even though Palms have had ARMS for ages, most Palm apps don't even use them to their full capacity? Weird.

>>Exactly.

Maybe notin vertical / custom apps that are the kind of thing you do (no>) - but most commercial apps of significance for OS 5 use ARM. Virtually all games, multimedia apps (media players) and most newer office type / productivity apps all use bits of ARM code (ARMlets at least - some are %99 ARM code, especially a lot of the games) to do heavy lifting (i.e. any image decompression, graphics, document decoding, etc). Example: Docs To Go uses ARM code. Basically the more code does notrely on the 68k API - the slower it will be and thus will need ARM code.

My question is: will OS 5 apps - the hundreds of commerical apps that use ARM - run on this? My worry (based on the 'properly behaved 68K apps will run fine' line that palm also used when it launched Garnet - is that this will not. Hope thats not the case.


RE: Palm OS
cervezas @ 2/17/2006 7:49:50 PM # Q
but most commercial apps of significance for OS 5 use ARM.

I'm aware of that.

My guess--and it's only a guess: ARMlets/PNOlets will not be encompassed by what PalmSource refers to as the "well-behaved" Palm OS applications that will run in emulation on ALP. I'd be interested in hearing other theories from developers about what the "well-behaved" restriction might entail. Palm developers will recall that similar language was used to describe Palm OS 4 code that would run correctly in PACE when OS5 was coming out. But something tells me they're not talking about whether your code was written against a 3.x SDK when they tell you it might not be well behaved enough for ALP.


David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: Palm OS
PenguinPowered @ 2/17/2006 8:06:39 PM # Q
my theory: If it ran on POSE, it's 'well behaved'. Otherwise, it's "oops" time.

May You Live in Interesting Times
Reply to this comment

This all sounds quite cool

freakout @ 2/17/2006 3:06:58 AM # Q
Between what they're saying and Marty's insistence that this *will* ship, this is all sounding better and better.

My only question: are Palm going to license this OS? And if Access are successful in getting lots of licensees, then what will Palm differentiate themselves with?

Tim Carroll
Your friendly customer service robot
(and big Treo fan)

RE: This all sounds quite cool
PenguinPowered @ 2/17/2006 3:28:40 AM # Q
It'll ship alright. Both Access and CMS have good track records at shipping product.

Ryan, that's a good question, though, about Palm. Anything from either Palm or Access on whether Palm will license ALP?


May You Live in Interesting Times

RE: This all sounds quite cool
nenad @ 2/17/2006 3:37:05 AM # Q
If Palm will license this and/or use is a question for their bussinness plans and only their stockholders should be concerned about it. I am Palm fan, but I care little about the company, I care about the UI and philosophy and ideas behind it.

What I care is that some good ideas and concepts from PalmOS are being transfered into this more modern platform, which will allow us users to have it available (in Palms or other HW) and not be forced to use Windows philosophy on handhelds.

And merging it with "cool" technologies, like Linux GTK and Java will provide even broader range of apps, and in the future, use of the same platform for "hybrid devices", like sub-notebook phones and similar.

Nenad

RE: This all sounds quite cool
Admin @ 2/17/2006 3:40:19 AM # Q
I asked him if Palm had shown any interest or had any comments about ALP, and got the std can't speak for Palm Inc response. It was rather conspicuous that Palm did not have a quote in the press release as they had around 8 different companies commenting on ALP.

Also, I am still waiting on official screenshots of ALP.

RE: This all sounds quite cool
Dr Opinion @ 2/17/2006 8:12:51 PM # Q
> "...It was rather conspicuous that Palm did not have a quote in the press release..."

Palm are in a strange position.

Because ALP is the "son of PalmOS", there are tremendous expectations that Palm would license the product, so in order to keep even a modicum of bargaining power, Palm might decide to play it coy.

Anyway, they don't really want to commit to ALP before it's quality is known, since that cannot possibly enhance either their bargaining position... or the code quality of ALP.

------
"People who like M$ products tend to be insecure crowd-following newbies lacking in experience and imagination."

Reply to this comment

This FrankensteinOS will NEVER be brought to life

The_Voice_of_Reason @ 2/17/2006 3:05:51 AM # Q
Interesting article, Ryan. But it raises more questions than it answers.

1) The main new user interface is the MAX application framework. It is said to preserve the "zen of palm" intuitive and easy to use user experience. It will support both traditional one handed phone operation (with a 5-way navigator and two dedicated soft keys) and touch-screen and stylus based systems. MAX will finally bring multitasking and concurrent applications to the Palm OS faithful. It fully supports multiple applications and background tasks.

All of the pre-installed ALP applications will use MAX. This includes updated "more modern" versions of the PalmSource PIM suite, multimedia and messaging applications. MAX is the main preferred developer framework that PalmSource wants developers to take advantage of.

So "MAX" is the king? And presumably MAX-related APIs are supposed to dominate? Sorry, but we'll believe this works when we see it. And somehow PalmSource/Access will have this new system ready (and fully integrated with the other nuts & bolts of "FrankieOS") in 10 months? Yeah. Right. I'll take that bet.

2) PalmSource states that "well behaved" Palm OS applications will operate fine under the emulation layer without any modification.

But presumably PalmOS apps will NOT be able to multitask? The wags are already suggesting PalmSource provide 68K app compatibility by just using POSE (PalmOS Emulator). Heh heh heh! This would ensure the FrankensteinOS is the greenest mobile OS in the world. (Reduce, REUSE, RECYCLE!) I hope an amateur hack like StyleTap Platform doesn't end up being a more elegant emulator than PalmSource's own system! Now that would be embarassing!

3) Developers will also be able to write native Linux applications using GTK+ and GStreamer libraries. Both are open source components widely used by many existing Linux applications. Other major open source components include SQLite, a high-performance database engine, and BlueZ, which will provide a Bluetooth 2.0 compliant software stack. PalmSource will be providing development tools to enable third party Linux apps and services to be easily ported and created on ALP.

Sounds like PalmSource feels it's better to receive than give. As I've said before, depending on the Open Source movement for your software development can quickly come back to bite you in the a$$. What if progress is too slow? Do you go your own way? What if no one accepts PalmSource's custom modifications - will PalmSource then end up having to maintain their own code forever?

PalmSource is also including Java J2ME compatibility, which is widely used in many of today's feature phones by manufacturers.

Yawn. Hopefully they mean it this time...

ALP will feature a new application launcher that will include each type of application. The launcher will be MAX based, but will give a common uniform interface for launching each type of application regardless of the type of program. ALP will also feature keyboard and handwriting recognition, though I could not get a confirmation on whether it will use Graffiti or not.

Interesting. So the launcher will have "stubs" that trigger launch routines for MAX/PalmOS/Linux/Java apps? Far more interesting will be the actual User Interface and how customisable it is. A tabbed (LauncherX) UI would have been ideal, while a browser-based UI with shortcuts to apps listed as "Favorites" (customisable in folders) + having customisable icons on the DIA for launching a user's 10 most frequently used apps would have been innovative. Given the dearth of innovation at PalmSource, I fear they'll inflict something like RonDo annesso upon us.

The platform will also include the NetFront web browser from ACCESS. NetFront 3.4 will include support for RSS, AJAX technologies and new plug-ins that will allow the browser to display PDF Files, office documents and videos.

Presumably NetFront will simply be a MAX app. So much for my hope for a browser-based UI. While plug-ins sound nice, the Devil is in the Details. Again, I'll remain sceptical until this system can be tested for robustness. And if the system can truly multitask, why not just launch an appropriate full-featured viewer application in its own process?

The ACCESS Linux Platform will have a application signature and verification system, though by itself ALP will support open applications. It will be up to the operator or device manufacturer whether to enforce or require signed applications.

Presumably there's no way to force users to have 68K apps signed? If a Tapwave-style signature system ever gets forced onto users by the carriers, suddenly there would be VERY little advantage to adopting this new FrankensteinOS.

PalmSource has been working together with ACCESS on ALP for the past three months. The work is being done as a team effort by all of PalmSource's different branches along with ACCESS. Most of the UI work is being done in Sunnyvale, CMS in Nanjing is doing a lot of kernel and application work and PalmSource's French office in Montpelier is concentrating on the communications development.

3 whole months! Wow! And Palm/PalmSource worked on Cobalt since the late 60s. Sunnyvale is obviously now of minor importance - expect continued downsizing this year. Most of PalmSource's better California Codemonkey Crew (C³) have already left the company or are about to leave "to persue other interests". Talented rats usually don't stay on board a sinking ship...

If MAX is supposed to assume primacy over PalmOS and Linux environments, I would have presumed that Access Japan was the major driving force here (unless most of MAX is already completed). Saying that China is doing a lot of the application work is a telling statement: The Sunnyvale Shoppe is toast.

As usual, France is doing telephony. Given how slow they've been historically, unless there's a lot of solid Open Source code to fall back on, this does not bode well. Will the Stacks have Cracks™?

PalmSource also plans to contribute more technologies to the open source community. It has already released OpenBinder, a component object framework for mobile devices. OpenBinder was developed for Palm OS Cobalt and was originally acquired from the Be OS purchase. PalmSource is also an active member of the mobile Linux community and is heavily involved with groups such as the OSDL (Open Source Development Labs) and LIPS (Linux Phone Standards Forum).

Oh please. Cut the B.S. PalmSource is basically a leech on the neck of the Open Source community. PalmSource's motto: "It's better to receive than it is to give.™" Let's not propagate this "PalmSource-as-good-Open-Source-community-citizen" crap any further, okay?

Before the acquisition, PalmSource had announced that they were working on two different branches of Palm OS for Linux. There was going to be a high end version for smartphones and a separate build optimized for feature phones. These plans have been dropped and regrouped around ALP, which will only come in one general version. Operators and device manufacturers will have the flexibility to incorporate or specify what features they want to include in devices. ChinaMobileSoft still sells a version of mLinux in China that powers many lower end feature phones there, but PalmSource has no plans to globalize that product.

So that's The New Plan this week? Are we SURE this time? Is that your final answer? The constant refrain of "Fall back! Retreat! Regroup! Run for your lives!" is wearing thin. Developers once-bitten by Cobalt are going to be plenty shy about this DogFoodOS™...

PalmSource pledged they will continue to provide support for Palm OS Garnet as long as their is a customer need for it.

Translation: PalmOS 5 will be in use indefinitely, even though it should have been retired way back in 2004. Pathetic. And every month that the release date of the FrankensteinOS slips, the more rickety PalmOS 5 looks in comparison to more modern competitors.

However, no further work is being done around Garnet by PalmSource.

Unbelievable. The least they should be doing is devoting some resources to cleaning up the PalmOS 5 code as much as possible. While you can't shine shi*, if PalmOS 5 may be all licencees honestly have to put on devices until 2008 (the REALISTIC earliest date to expect the FrankensteinOS to come to "life"), the least PalmSource can do is try to ensure that their core product can last that long.

The take home message seems to be that PalmOS 5 is REALLY the end of PalmOS, so if you like PalmOS you'd better stock up with as many of your favorite devices as you can NOW. New TH55, UX50, T3 are going to be collectors items that people will treasure the way Apple Newtons are treated by their fanatics.

Mr. Chu said he expects devices running ALP to reach the market sometime in 2007. PalmSource's official release says they expect to make the ALP software developer kit available by the end of 2006. This SDK will be for top licensees and software developers to being work on ALP products. A product developer kit or PDK will be following shortly after for all licensees.

Yeah. Right. And Cobalt was officially released in 2003. Somehow I can't seem to find any Cobalt devices in my local office supply store. How odd.

Don't believe everything you read™


TVoR



------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

Palm's future = Windows Mobile (+ a little bit of PalmOS 5?)
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 2/17/2006 5:22:13 AM # Q
Since Palm (previously burned SEVERELY by the Cobalt Catastrophe) seems to be a non-player in all of the hoopla around the next generation of the OS the company was founded on it appears that they might now be focusing their efforts more on Windows Mobile.

To go from owning PalmOS to stupidly losing control of PalmOS and then seeing PalmOS abandoned/frozen in time by its new masters - all within just a couple years - has gotta hurt. PalmOS has now been relegated to being a secondary feature of a cellphone OS. We will apparently never see any further advances in PalmOS beyond what we now have in current PalmOS 5 devices.

We have just witnessed announcement of the death of PalmOS. While the OS may remain technically alive and on life support, plugged into this new FrankensteinOS, in reality PalmOS is now brain dead because of Access' decisions.


***********************************************************************

PalmOS

Born 1996
Died 2006

R.I.P.

------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

What's in a name?
freakout @ 2/17/2006 6:57:27 AM # Q
It seems obvious that MAX is whatever good bits could be salvaged out of Cobalt. Otherwise, where did this mystery "application framework" come from?

It seems ALP *is* PalmOS 6, pretty much. Just with a different name. If it supports the old PACE apps, runs the new Protein apps and all the PalmOS developers migrate to it, then the PalmOS will survive. And most importantly, we'll all still have an alternative to Microsoft!

I would really like to know what Palm think of this, and whether they're going to be free to hack away at it themselves, as Handspring were with the Treo. Any chance of an interview, Admin?

Tim Carroll
Your friendly customer service robot
(and big Treo fan)

RE: This FrankensteinOS will NEVER be brought to life
medevilenemy @ 2/17/2006 8:01:16 AM # Q
I really dont know what to say about this "ALP". I can only guess that the interface is probably based almost exclusively on OS6, as probably is most of the intermediate-level coding. The kernel will proably be a modified linux kernel modified to "Plug in" to the existing runtime framework. This would explain not only the simmilarities in description between ALP and OS6, but the alledged speed of development as well.

I can say pretty confidently that Palm proper WILL NOT focus its efforts on WinMob. The only real reason (i think) palm used WinMob on the Treo 700w it that it is trying to grab as much smartphone marketshare as it possibly can before the traditional PPC companies jump onto the bandwagon.

Palm probably wont be too quick to comment on ALP, given it was "Severely burned" before. In the end, Palm is almost certain to continue to use whatever is the most profitable continuation of the PalmOS family line.

Basically, while this "ALP" will have a different set of internal organs, we can be pretty sure that it will have the same "Soul" as the genuine PalmOS. Either way, it will be months before any useful information is available... So we should just wait patiently.

So much for reality
cervezas @ 2/17/2006 9:09:45 AM # Q
More total bullsh*t from TVoR. Adult swim is over and the adenoidal brat is back pissing in the pool. Oh well.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog
RE: This FrankensteinOS will NEVER be brought to life
relyons @ 2/17/2006 9:39:56 AM # Q
TVoR announced,

> PalmOS

> Born 1996
> Died 2006

> R.I.P.

If TVoR truly believes the Palm OS is dead, he wouldn't waste another minute posting to Palm OS forums.

Silence from TVoR on Palm OS forums would genuinely indicate that he believes the Palm OS is dead.

I wouldn't waste time posting in forums about dead operating systems. Why does he?

So here's the truth: TVoR LOVES the Palm OS. Look at how many postings he makes. TVoR is OBSESSED with the Palm OS. He's its number one fan. TVoR really digs Garnet. He's in a corner right now inappropriately fondling a Tungsten T3.

When TVoR and his ilk go silent, I'll genuinely worry about the future of the Palm OS.

Eric Lyons
Proud Palm OS Developer

RE: This FrankensteinOS will NEVER be brought to life
cervezas @ 2/17/2006 10:06:09 AM # Q
You give him too much credit, Eric. That guy hurling expletives to lampposts at the Greyhound bus station doesn't do it because he loves Greyhound.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog
RE: This FrankensteinOS will NEVER be brought to life
Dr Opinion @ 2/17/2006 8:16:55 PM # Q
> "...Sorry, but we'll believe this works when we see it..."

Since when were morons entitled to the Royal "We"??? :)

------
"People who like M$ products tend to be insecure crowd-following newbies lacking in experience and imagination."

RE: This FrankensteinOS will NEVER be brought to life
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 2/17/2006 9:50:27 PM # Q
It seems obvious that MAX is whatever good bits could be salvaged out of Cobalt. Otherwise, where did this mystery "application framework" come from?

It seems ALP *is* PalmOS 6, pretty much. Just with a different name. If it supports the old PACE apps, runs the new Protein apps and all the PalmOS developers migrate to it, then the PalmOS will survive.

I believe you are wrong.

I can only guess that the interface is probably based almost exclusively on OS6, as probably is most of the intermediate-level coding. The kernel will proably be a modified linux kernel modified to "Plug in" to the existing runtime framework. This would explain not only the simmilarities in description between ALP and OS6, but the alledged speed of development as well.

I believe you are wrong.

More total bullsh*t from TVoR. Adult swim is over and the adenoidal brat is back pissing in the pool. Oh well.

I believe you are an idiot.

If TVoR truly believes the Palm OS is dead, he wouldn't waste another minute posting to Palm OS forums.

Silence from TVoR on Palm OS forums would genuinely indicate that he believes the Palm OS is dead.

I wouldn't waste time posting in forums about dead operating systems. Why does he?

So here's the truth: TVoR LOVES the Palm OS. Look at how many postings he makes. TVoR is OBSESSED with the Palm OS. He's its number one fan. TVoR really digs Garnet. He's in a corner right now inappropriately fondling a Tungsten T3.

When TVoR and his ilk go silent, I'll genuinely worry about the future of the Palm OS.

I believe you are correct (except I wouldn't touch a T3 with a 10 foot pole).

You give him too much credit, Eric. That guy hurling expletives to lampposts at the Greyhound bus station doesn't do it because he loves Greyhound.

I believe you are proving that you are an idiot.


Since when were morons entitled to the Royal "We"??? :)

You are an idiot. The answer is: The same day you started using the "Royal We".

TVoR


------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

RE: This FrankensteinOS will NEVER be brought to life
freakout @ 2/18/2006 10:40:33 AM # Q
The "MAX-is-what's-left-of-Cobalt" theory seems fairly reasonable, Voice. What's yours?

Tim Carroll
Your friendly customer service robot
(and big Treo fan)
RE: This FrankensteinOS will NEVER be brought to life
cervezas @ 2/18/2006 1:23:10 PM # Q
The "MAX-is-what's-left-of-Cobalt" theory seems fairly reasonable

There's nothing that would indicate MAX has anything to do with Cobalt, and much to indicate that it doesn't. It's possible there will be some significant parts of the API that will be similar to the Protein API and I'm sure PalmSource will opt for compatibility wherever it's practical, but some of the most important parts of the system--those for building the user interface and for working with data--have undergone such profound changes in the levels beneath the framework that I doubt the API that exposes these system features will look very much like the Protein API at all.

Having said that, the initial reaction from the developer community to things like having a built-in relational database engine have been very positive, so breaking compatibility may actually be welcome for the benefits it can provide. I know that I'm hoping for qualities like power, flexibility, clarity, and efficiency than compatibility with the old API at any cost.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: This FrankensteinOS will NEVER be brought to life
PenguinPowered @ 2/18/2006 2:44:39 PM # Q
From the announcement, my guess is that the best way to think of MAX would be to take the Rome work (which was not part of Cobalt), tune it some more to fit into Access' browser model, and port it to Linux on top of GTK+. Since none of the underlying Cobalt facilities (Datamanager, Picasso, et al) survive, there's no reason to expect the API to look at all like protein.



May You Live in Interesting Times

RE: This FrankensteinOS will NEVER be brought to life
freakout @ 2/18/2006 6:05:46 PM # Q
What is an "application framework"? Is an "application framework" (i.e. MAX) hard to do? How'd they come up with it so quickly - considering it's only been months since the acquisition? Or is it something Palmsource has been working on for awhile and has just renamed? Or is it just vaporware, just words on a page, with no practical implementation yet?

Inquiring minds want to know!

Oh, and did anyone ever make a Protein app anyway?

Tim Carroll
Your friendly customer service robot
(and big Treo fan)

RE: This FrankensteinOS will NEVER be brought to life
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 2/18/2006 8:57:57 PM # Q
The "MAX-is-what's-left-of-Cobalt" theory seems fairly reasonable, Voice. What's yours?

MAX represents a completely new mobile OS with its own set of APIs. I expect MAX to be like a stripped-down, more efficient version of WinCE or EPOC. It has basically NOTHING to do with Cobalt. Almost all traces of Cobalt will be expunged because the failures PalmSource experienced in trying to use scavenged bits and pieces of Cobalt to make PalmLinux proved it was not worth the hassle. You simply can't cobble together bits and pieces of code to create a modern OS. PalmSource was naive (or mendacious?) to claim they could. I'll let Dianne Hackborn's previous absurd comments on how supposedly simple it would be to salmage Cobalt speak for themselves. Access was not dumb enough to attempt to salvage a buggy incomplete OS and integrate this into their future core product. Failure of Cobalt would have bankrupted the company.


Access presented its plans for a new mobile OS a couple years ago and they would have started work on it at that time. The only thing the PalmSource purchse adds is a fourth arm (PalmOS) to what otherwise would have been a tripod MODULAR OS ("MAX, Linux distro, Java).

It's not like Access just thought of this yesterday! I think by acquiring PalmOS (an environment that is well known and easy to write for), Access is hedging their bets + buying insurance for their mobile platform that otherwise may have been shunned by carriers and cellphone makers if it came only with a brand new environment (MAX).


------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

RE: This FrankensteinOS will NEVER be brought to life
PenguinPowered @ 2/18/2006 9:58:57 PM # Q
MAX represents a completely new mobile OS with its own set of APIs.

Except, of course, for the bits of it that expose Linux, Posix, Pthreads, SQLite, GTK+, OpenBinder and BlueZ interfaces, and the parts that conform to the various standards that Access now paying LiPS service to.


May You Live in Interesting Times

RE: Cobalt Chowder
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 2/19/2006 1:41:28 PM # Q
Oh, and did anyone ever make a Protein app anyway?

Most developers took a wait and see attitude towards Cobalt once they started to realize that it was all hype and that no devices were materializing from the Vapor. Why spend hundreds of hours learning how to code for new APIs and then updating your applications when there are NO DEVICES that actually work with your updated code? Anyone that spent any time learning how to code for Cobalt must be feeling pretty pi$$ed off right now.

If I was a professional developer, I would keep coding for PalmOS 5 (without any ARM-native code) and start porting my apps to Windows Mobile (as many developers have done over the past 2 years). Also, Beersy previously made an excellent point about the flexibility of SuperWaba - it has evolved into a very solid, flexible platform and epitomizes the "write once, run everywhere" ideal that Java has failed to deliver. I would probably look at using SuperWaba for simpler in-house custom app development to be deployed on a variety of hardware and possibly even for use in more ambitious programs as well.

TVoR


------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

Ed- would you ban him already?
Tuckermaclain @ 2/19/2006 5:01:21 PM # Q
Just for the record, TVoR is a pig. I was under the assumption that we could no longer post anonymously was because the comments were getting out of control and you could ban them from posting. This clown's comments are like what you'd read on the stall-door in a public urinal.

What's up, Ed? In the last few days I've read comments about deep-throating, protein around somebody's wife's mouth. It's all the same, every comment. It might be funny on some juvenile trash porn-site, but not here. I don't want to look at the world through his "protein-splattered" glasses. People read this site (I hope) for the very latest buzz from a knowledgeable group. TVoR really just detracts from whatever amount of professionalism there is.

Will you ban him already? Or at least, ensure that he remains civil?

If you want a vote, cast mine for "ban."

Ryan is the admin now, not Ed
cervezas @ 2/19/2006 5:37:50 PM # Q
And PIC *is* the public urinal of the Palm user community. If Ryan implemented a modding system that sites like SlashDot have the community could be self-policing: content-free and abusive posts by guys like TVoR and Gekko would fall below almost everyone's threshold and would rarely be read, while posts that add some value to the discussion would display prominently. But apparently the problem doesn't cost him enough in money or embarrassment to bother with that.

Instead, since there's no way to make contributions here that don't get flamed in the crudest, most infantile ways by the trolls, those who do want to have on-topic discussion are forced to fend for ourselves, which often reduces the signal-to-noise ratio even more. I'm not claiming that I'm standing on any kind of high ground here, by the way, but I refuse to be a sap and I'm unwilling to relinquish the forum to those whose comments are designed to put an end to real discussion.

It's a shame. And, yes, of course I'll get flamed for this... and nothing will be done about it.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

I vote Tuckermaclain off the island
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 2/19/2006 5:49:33 PM # Q
Ryan is welcome to ban me at any time if he feels my posts don't contribute to the site. (In my opinion I've contributed a lot more to support Palminfocenter than you have, my dear child.) If anyone should be banned it should be you for your rude attack on me and tragic lack of a sense of humor.

I'm sure Palm and PalmSource/Access would love for Ryan to ban me for speaking THE TRUTH that others are afraid to say publicly. Over the years, The Voice of Reason has been one of the few advocates for the PalmOS platform demanding that Palm/PalmSource rise above their persistent level of mediocrity.

Given the events of the past few months, I now have serious doubts about the future of PalmOS and have debated leaving Palminfocenter altogether. As someone who has been a regular reader + poster at Palminfocenter since the beginning, that's saying a lot. The wit and intelligence of regulars like Beersy, Surur, hkklife, Marty, et al has kept me coming back.

If Ryan chooses to ban me or censor my posts, that's his decision. No doubt Palm would probably be willing to send more advertising dollars his way if all anyone sees at Palminfocenter is gushing pro-Palm treacle and "fantastic" pictures of pretty kittys (pu$$ys?). PalmStation and PDA Buzz died. ClieSource died and was reborn as a walking-dead site populated by teens, preteens and the ever-clueless Jeff Kirvin. Treocentral still has a lot of posting (mostly vapid drivel), but the idiotic moderators there (like gspunkface) have long since either banned or driven off most of the intelligent, witty posters there. Brighthand is an embarassment true to its "m505 Brightness Hack" Steve Bush roots and should taken out to behind the barn and mercifully put out of its misery.

You want to see me banned? Bring it on. Moron.


TVoR
(former intimate acquaintance of Dianne Hackborn ;-O)

------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

RE: This FrankensteinOS will NEVER be brought to life
Gekko @ 2/19/2006 6:28:30 PM # Q

>And PIC *is* the public urinal of the Palm user community.

you must like urinals because you're here posting 24/7. how do you ever get any work done for your "business"? do you ever even leave the house?

don't insult Ryan and everyone else who posts here. if you don't like the site, just leave.

nobody here wants to read your endless apologist propaganda anyway. you are neither informative or entertaining. please do us all a favor and go to 1src or brighthand with the rest of the blind cheerleaders.

thank you and goodbye.


Any more c0ckroaches have something to say about me?
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 2/19/2006 6:37:04 PM # Q
content-free and abusive posts by guys like TVoR and Gekko would fall below almost everyone's threshold...


Et tu, Beersy? Et tu?

------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm eCONomy = Communism™

The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823

RE: Banning Peaches
PenguinPowered @ 2/19/2006 6:45:25 PM # Q
former intimate acquaintance of Dianne Hackborn

you're peaches!

There is an alternative, skippy, and you're well aware of it. You could drop the "dwelling it its parents basement, behaving like a loser from an r crumb comix" attitude and stick to the topic.

Going for the scatalogical in an attempt to get a rise out of people is old, Skippy; isn't working for you; and, as you can see, nobody finds you funny anymore.

You really need to grow up and get out of the basement.

HTH HAND

May You Live in Interesting Times

no need for banning
cervezas @ 2/19/2006 7:15:31 PM # Q
No one is insulting Ryan. And no one needs to be "banned" if PalmInfocenter has the right software. Ryan just taps a bunch of moderators--maybe ten regular contributors (the group could rotate)--and they have a certain number of points that they can use to mod posts up or down during their term as moderator. People who get consistently modded down by the moderators will have low point values and readers can set their own threshold of what point value they care about reading. Posts can be modded up for being funny, insightful, interesting, and down for being trolls.

This is how SlashDot works, and it seems to work very well, keeping both the entertainment and content value quite high. It's about time PalmInfocenter had something like this.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: This FrankensteinOS will NEVER be brought to life
twrock @ 2/19/2006 7:34:18 PM # Q
Is it so hard to see that the threats of violent sex and continuous stream of juvenille insults against other contributors and their family members are simply over the line? Try a little self-regulation for once and others won't be asking Ryan to do so. But since all of this is nothing more that attention seeking behaviour, I don't suppose any "self-regulation" will be forthcoming.

It might not be the "mythical color HandEra", but I'm liking my TX anyway.
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