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Comments on: Palm Treo 750 Pictures

Palm Treo 750Engadget has posted the latest round of leaked Palm Treo 750 pictures. This is the long rumored next Windows Mobile powered Treo expected to be released sometime this fall. This new set of pics seems to confirm the name will be the Treo 750. It was previously known by the code-name Treo Hollywood. This model is expected to debut on Vodafone in Europe and on Cingular in the US. The Treo 750 is expected to support UMTS, HSPDA and there have been conflicting reports about whether or not it will include built in Wi-Fi. In addition it will ship with MSFP push email support, a 1.3 mp camera and features an antenna-less design.
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No WiFi...then it's BiBi

Foo Fighter @ 8/9/2006 9:03:08 PM # Q
Unless Palm finally bakes 802.11 into this Treo it won't even be on my short list of smartphone options. WiFi is a critical connectivity option that a great many smartphone customers will simply not overlook.

-------------------------------
PocketFactory, www.pocketfactory.com
Elitist Snob, www.elitistsnob.com
RE: No WiFi...then it's BiBi
mtt @ 8/9/2006 9:28:05 PM # Q
And how many top selling smartphones currently feature WiFi???

Sure it would be nice, but it is way down the list of features normal people demand from a phone. Plus EVDO or UMTS render WiFi mostly redundent.

Handspring Visor, Palm V, Treo 180, Treo 90, Treo 600, Treo 650...
MTT

RE: No WiFi...then it's BiBi
Foo Fighter @ 8/9/2006 9:43:14 PM # Q
>> "And how many top selling smartphones currently feature WiFi???"

Hmm. Let me see, there is the entire line of HTC Apache and Wizard phones offered by carriers like Cingular and T-mobile. Then of course there are all those similarly equipped Windows Mobile Smartphones. Uh..there's the Nokia E61

>> "Sure it would be nice, but it is way down the list of features normal people demand from a phone."

"Normal people" don't buy smartphones and therefore aren't the target market. Smartphones are targeted at business users and prosumers...where such feature is indeed critical.

>> "Plus EVDO or UMTS render WiFi mostly redundent.",

Last time I checked EVDO/UMTS weren't free solutions. Why would I pull data through costly carrier pipes when I can access all my data for free over home or corporate LAN/WAN networks?

Corporate customers want these devices connecting with their corporate WiFi networks.

-------------------------------
PocketFactory, www.pocketfactory.com
Elitist Snob, www.elitistsnob.com

RE: No WiFi...then it's BiBi
skennedy1217 @ 8/9/2006 9:56:55 PM # Q
Yeah, I agree with FooFighter. The high cost of data plans is the one thing that's kept me from buying a smartphone like the Treo. And even if the plans were lower in price, I would still want to use my home network. But then again I'm just a Joe Consumer type and not a corporate power user.

________________________________
M100==>M500==>T|T==>T|T2==>TH55
RE: No WiFi...then it's BiBi
Rome @ 8/10/2006 12:05:45 AM # Q
>>WiFi is a critical connectivity option that a great many smartphone customers will simply not overlook.<<

I guess the 5+ million Blackberry users must have overlooked this feature....


RE: No WiFi...then it's BiBi
fierywater @ 8/10/2006 1:28:18 AM # Q
"I guess the 5+ million Blackberry users must have overlooked this feature...."

Your typical Blackberry user is slightly different than the type of person who would buy a Palm or Windows-based smartphone. Most are given to them by their work purely for on-the-go e-mail communications. Granted, that means the businesses have overlooked said feature, but the Blackberry infrastructure is far more important than things like WiFi to them.

RE: No WiFi...then it's BiBi
scstraus2 @ 8/10/2006 6:02:51 AM # Q
Yeah, the latest round of Palm's offerings on both PalmOS and Windows Mobile are pretty far behind the crowd, and more expensive. The latest HTC TyTn has a 2 megapixel camera, and an extra VGA for video conferencing, UMTS (3g), EDGE (2.5g), GPRS (2g), Wi-fi, bluetooth, and infrared. All this in a package a bit smaller than the treo.

Palm's missed the boat on this generation of mobiles, I'm afraid. I can get the nokia e61 with 3g data for half the price of the treo.

RE: No WiFi...then it's BiBi
Foo Fighter @ 8/10/2006 9:06:52 AM # Q
>> "I guess the 5+ million Blackberry users must have overlooked this feature...."

RIM has a different business model which is based around selling a proprietary e-mail/messaging system to customers and service providers. In short, Blackberry is an email client...not a computing platform. So even though Palm, Microsoft, HTC, et al, target the same market...they go about it from different metaphors.

-------------------------------
PocketFactory, www.pocketfactory.com
Elitist Snob, www.elitistsnob.com

RE: No WiFi...then it's BiBi
Foo Fighter @ 8/10/2006 9:11:30 AM # Q
>> "Palm's missed the boat on this generation of mobiles, I'm afraid."

Unfortunately that is the case. I've been ranting lately that the Treo form factor is getting long in the tooth and is no longer competitive in today's market. The Moto Q is the most coveted smartphone right now, I'm starting to see these things everywhere, even in the supermarket people are whipping out Qs...and I don't mean in the Alphabet soup aisle. ;-)

When you consider the Q is less than half the cost of the Treo, and the possibility of the unlocked GSM model having WiFi, who is going to want the WinMob/PalmOS Treo 700/750?

>> "I can get the nokia e61 with 3g data for half the price of the treo."

And in the case of PalmOS Treos..you would be getting a superior phone and software.

-------------------------------
PocketFactory, www.pocketfactory.com
Elitist Snob, www.elitistsnob.com

RE: No WiFi...then it's BiBi
Foo Fighter @ 8/10/2006 9:33:30 AM # Q
>> "The latest HTC TyTn has a 2 megapixel camera, and an extra VGA for video conferencing, UMTS (3g), EDGE (2.5g), GPRS (2g), Wi-fi, bluetooth, and infrared. All this in a package a bit smaller than the treo."

I find myself oddly drawn to this smartphone for some reason, which is unusual because I have never found these clone-like HTC Apache/Wizard phones appealing in the least; too bulky. But the TyTn seems to change that for me. The killer of course will be it's pricetag, which is likely to surpass Treo. I'm thinking around $700 is what the unlocked GSM model will set you back. I hope I'm wrong.

-------------------------------
PocketFactory, www.pocketfactory.com
Elitist Snob, www.elitistsnob.com

RE: No WiFi...then it's BiBi
dorelse @ 8/10/2006 3:53:09 PM # Q
I gotta politely disagree.

As a mobile professional, RIM has it right...from a communication strategy.

Most mobile professionals (especially large corporate deployments), don't pay for their access, so they don't care how they get their e-mail, calendar, contacts, etc....all they care about is that it works quickly, and seemlessly, all the time, every time.

I don't want to hunt for a wi-fi spot, in fact, sitting in the airport last night, I didn't even look. Just whip out the Blackberry, and viola...e-mail. When I had my Treo 650, it was the same thing...work pays the bills, I use all the data minutes I need to get the job done.

Using cellphone towers is the only viable solution...WiMax may change all that, but that's what 2-3 years away in a stable, reliable mobile device, that doesn't need to be recharged every 30 minutes, if not more.

Finding, configuring, logging in, etc, at all the various wifi hotspots, is far too complex and cumbersome for the average user to ever gain a large adoption rate. Joe Corporate Road Warrior wants simple, reliable access, and that's via cellphone signal, not wifi.

Wifi while important for a lot of the individual power users like you and I, is not at all important for the large corporations...and that is where Palm is trying to gain marketshare.

My company of 15,000 employees has not 1, not 1 WiFi location anywhere. They are deemed, unreliable, unsafe, and unsecured. Every PC, desktop or laptop is plugged in for security reasons, as well as the TCO being reduced. Many are the same way.

RE: No WiFi...then it's BiBi
Rome @ 8/10/2006 4:47:00 PM # Q
>>Your typical Blackberry user is slightly different than the type of person who would buy a Palm or Windows-based smartphone. Most are given to them by their work purely for on-the-go e-mail communications. Granted, that means the businesses have overlooked said feature, but the Blackberry infrastructure is far more important than things like WiFi to them.<<

My points exactly. For majority of Business customers, a reliable and robust email solution is far more important than having wi fi on their smartphones. While many people on this board like to complain about the lack of built-in wi fi on their Treos, the reality in the market place is totally different picture.


RE: No WiFi...then it's BiBi
Rome @ 8/10/2006 4:55:09 PM # Q
>>Blackberry is an email client...not a computing platform. So even though Palm, Microsoft, HTC, et al, target the same market...they go about it from different metaphors<<

BB is not a computing platform? Microsoft and I disagree. In a recent presentation, Microsoft sees Symbian, RIM, and Mobile Linux as its top three competitors in the mobile market.

RE: No WiFi...then it's BiBi
Foo Fighter @ 8/10/2006 4:59:16 PM # Q
>> "I don't want to hunt for a wi-fi spot, in fact, sitting in the airport last night, I didn't even look."

That's fine, not everyone wants WiFi. I can respect that...but you and Rome are missing the big picture; if you don't want it...don't use it. The 802.11 radio will never burden you in any way, while it's absence leaves much to be desired for many users. There is simply no logical reason for handset vendors to exclude WiFi. It adds minimal cost to the bill of sales, and if unused will never in any way tax power consumption. I don't have EDGE support in my area...does this mean I should demand a phone that DOESN'T support EDGE? Of course not. The technology is there under the hood whether I need it or not. If I do, fine. If not, that's fine too. The point is that I have the option of using it I so choose.

-------------------------------
PocketFactory, www.pocketfactory.com
Elitist Snob, www.elitistsnob.com

RE: No WiFi...then it's BiBi
Gekko @ 8/10/2006 7:47:16 PM # Q

Sprint's "all you can eat" data plan is a $10 per month add-on making WIFI unnecessary and superfluous. I don't know anyone in my company who would ever use it. There's no reason.

Also, the WIFI radio adds size, weight, cost, and certainly wouldn't help Palm's critical negotiating position with wireless carriers.



RE: No WiFi...then it's BiBi
Foo Fighter @ 8/10/2006 8:36:09 PM # Q
>> "Sprint's "all you can eat" data plan is a $10"

Great price...if you can get it! With Cingular I pay that same amount now for their "Media Basic" package which offers...hold on to your hat...a whopping 1MB download limit. Meaning you only get 1MB of wireless internet data transfers...after that the toll meter kicks in and you pay through the nose.. Nice, eh?

For twice that amount, I can upgrade to the Media Max 200 package which grants me unlimited Internet access and free Video, which isn't bad. But you only get quota of 200 messages (text-picture-IM-video), which kind of sucks.

Pound for pound I still prefer a WiFi network, especially given that it provides full control over your wireless experience.



-------------------------------
PocketFactory, www.pocketfactory.com
Elitist Snob, www.elitistsnob.com

RE: No WiFi...then it's BiBi
Foo Fighter @ 8/10/2006 8:59:52 PM # Q
Also forgot to mention that unless you have 3G access, WiFi is your only option for truly high-speed data access. Unless of course you enjoy experiencing vintage dial-up internet access at its best. All about the information super-cowpath!

-------------------------------
PocketFactory, www.pocketfactory.com
Elitist Snob, www.elitistsnob.com
RE: No WiFi...then it's BiBi
Foo Fighter @ 8/10/2006 9:05:58 PM # Q
>> "Also, the WIFI radio adds size, weight, cost,"

No it doesn't, Gekko. The Nokia E61 is proof that argument no longer holds water. You can easilily fit a WiFi radio into a small thin lightweight package. Myth busted.

-------------------------------
PocketFactory, www.pocketfactory.com
Elitist Snob, www.elitistsnob.com

RE: No WiFi...then it's BiBi
Gekko @ 8/10/2006 9:35:00 PM # Q

FooMonster -

1. Switch to Sprint. Cingular offers you nothing but shiitty service/coverage and high costs IMO.
2. Palm is no Nokia. Different companies with different resources and different economies of scale.

There is no need for WIFI when you have a virtualy UBIQUITOUS cellular connection.


RE: No WiFi...then it's BiBi
Rome @ 8/10/2006 9:35:49 PM # Q
I never said that I didn't want wifi. I merely pointed out the fact that 5+ million customers didn't allow the lack of wifi stop them from using their BB smartphones.

Foo Fighter wrote: "WiFi is a critical connectivity option that a great many smartphone customers will simply not overlook."

I gave you 5+ million data points on why your above statement is inaccurate. Can you quantify the "a great many smartphone customers will simply not overlook" phrase in your above statement?


RE: No WiFi...then it's BiBi
AdamaDBrown @ 8/10/2006 10:00:13 PM # Q
Foo wrote:
I don't have EDGE support in my area

Good god man, where the hell do you live? I live in nowhere, and even I have EDGE.

Gekko--you do realize that Sprint's broadband network covers less than half the US population, right? Also, no data roaming is available on Verizon, so if you're not in the city = no go.

Anyway, maybe a cellular connection works for you, but I'd rather not have to go through an encrypted VPN with high latency and limited bandwidth just to run VNC with my desktop computer.

RE: No WiFi...then it's BiBi
Foo Fighter @ 8/10/2006 10:01:23 PM # Q
>> "1. Switch to Sprint. Cingular offers you nothing but shiitty service/coverage and high costs IMO."

No thanks. It will be a cold day in hell before I ever go back to a dinosaur CDMA carrier. That is a dead-end architecture. Even Nokia is phasing out its CDMA production, which is one of several reasons why I dumped Verizon. Phone selection sucks and always will because GSM is the world standard and most broadly supported. The best phones are designed for GSM, and then if ever for CDMA. Plus I can own as many phones as I want (I have four right now) and the freedom to move between them at leisure, simply by swapping SIM cards. With CDMA you are all but locked into one phone throughout the duration of your contract. Not so with GSM. I can go out right now and buy an iMate Jammin or any othe GSM smartphone that suits my fancy (as I recently did with the Nokia E61). Go buy yourself an E61. Oh...that's right, you can't.

As far as coverage goes...mine is just fine. As good as I was experiencing under Verizon. Voice plan packages is fairly comparable across carriers, only the data plans have some differentiation.

-------------------------------
PocketFactory, www.pocketfactory.com
Elitist Snob, www.elitistsnob.com

RE: No WiFi...then it's BiBi
Gekko @ 8/10/2006 10:07:59 PM # Q

Move out of the sticks, gentlemen.



RE: No WiFi...then it's BiBi
Foo Fighter @ 8/10/2006 10:42:41 PM # Q
>> "Good god man, where the hell do you live? I live in nowhere, and even I have EDGE."

Well this is a hoot. I just checked on Cingular's coverage map and NOW I apparently am under EDGE. When this happened God only knows, as that wasn't the case just a few months ago when I inquired. Thanks for notifying me, Cingular. Friggin jerk offs!!

In that case it's time to bump up my data plan.

-------------------------------
PocketFactory, www.pocketfactory.com
Elitist Snob, www.elitistsnob.com

RE: No WiFi...then it's BiBi
dorelse @ 8/10/2006 10:54:59 PM # Q
Foo - Believe it or not, my employer views Wi-Fi as a huge huge security risk in any an all devices. They absolutely do not want it even included, and PAY to have the Wi-Fi cards removed from our laptops...as some enterprising young IT types might get it working and risk data theft.

So they're paranoia is ultimately a good thing for protecting customer data.

I think most large corporations are of the same mind set....and since they have the big $$$, their voice is hear louder than ours.

I'm not arguing your point, b/c I'm probably going to purchase a t-mobile SDA as my next phone b/c is has wi-fi included (vs. Cingular's 2125 or the Treo's)

RE: No WiFi...then it's BiBi
mtt @ 8/11/2006 7:28:30 AM # Q
I'm sure some of you are seeing this... as more carriers carry BlackBerries, and they make slicker phones, more and more non-corporate people are getting them. They do text extremely well, most have AIM & MSN chat compatibility, Nextel has them with the DirectConnect radio, etc. BlackBerry is growing, at the expense of less synced/connected smartphones.

Handspring Visor, Palm V, Treo 180, Treo 90, Treo 600, Treo 650...
MTT
RE: No WiFi...then it's BiBi
hoodoo @ 8/15/2006 3:20:47 PM # Q
Re the Nokia E61 and Wifi: that's if one can get it!

Rogers here in Canada is about to introduce the E62...*without* WiFi...thanks. Either that or get the unlocked version of the E61 on the grey market for $600.

Reply to this comment

Palm, you bastards

freakout @ 8/9/2006 11:04:44 PM # Q
Lennon is black.

Nitro is grey.

Are they trying to force me onto WinMob?

Tim
I apologise for any and all emoticons that appear in my posts. You may shoot them on sight.
Treo 270 ---> Treo 650

RE: Palm, you bastards
Foo Fighter @ 8/9/2006 11:39:13 PM # Q
Actually the carriers usually get their own unique color schemes, so don't immediately assume that Lennon is black while Nitro is grey. For example, the Cingular Treo 650 looks radically different than the unlocked GSM model.

I agree though...the black is sexier.

-------------------------------
PocketFactory, www.pocketfactory.com
Elitist Snob, www.elitistsnob.com

RE: Palm, you bastards
ComputerGeek9866 @ 8/9/2006 11:57:40 PM # Q
Are you kidding? Black treo with silver accents and no antenna... Excuse me while I wipe the drool off my keyboard...
RE: Palm, you bastards
freakout @ 8/10/2006 12:42:38 AM # Q
Actually Foo, that's a good point. I forgot that the U.S. carriers get a variety of colours.

Fingers crossed the unlocked GSM (when it eventuates) will be in black.

Tim
I apologise for any and all emoticons that appear in my posts. You may shoot them on sight.
Treo 270 ---> Treo 650

RE: Palm, you bastards
KultiVator @ 8/10/2006 3:39:59 AM # Q
But Tim - it runs WinMob...

...you're not really gonna sell your soul are you????


KultiVator

RE: Palm, you bastards
serpico @ 8/10/2006 3:45:32 AM # Q
I would get one of these if it had PalmOS running. My Treo 650 is so easy to navigate and use.

RE: Palm, you bastards
freakout @ 8/10/2006 5:45:11 AM # Q
KV, not yet! Even if the PalmOS one is in grey, I'll accept it - begrudgingly. It's just that black is much sexier and makes it look a bit less "corporate".

Tim
I apologise for any and all emoticons that appear in my posts. You may shoot them on sight.
Treo 270 ---> Treo 650
RE: Palm, you bastards
scstraus2 @ 8/10/2006 6:12:17 AM # Q
Unfortunately the newest PalmOS GSM phone will barely be an upgrade over the treo 650. No 3g, no Wifi, maybe not even a better camera.

For palm users it's probably time to either try to make it another year with their already old treo 650 or just get a nokia E61, HTC, or Motorola Q. The new Palm Treo is DOA.

RE: Palm, you bastards
hkklife @ 8/10/2006 9:37:26 AM # Q
Anything that adds to the 650's miniscule amount of onboard memory is an "upgrade" no matter how you slice it.

If I were a GSM user and, being a die-hard POS fan to the end, I'd seriously look at trading in my 650 for a Nitro. No antenna, battery buttons & styling, over 2x the available RAM, updated OS/bundled apps...and probably an improved but same resolution camera. This IS Palm, people...we have come to expect minor updates from one model to the next!

I'm just curious to see if the battery on the Nitro is replacable (if so then dropping a big Seidio battery in it is no problem) and if no major compromises have been made that might make it look worse than the outgoing 650. I essentially expect the new GSM Nitro to be identical to the 700P other than having EDGE instead of EVDO and the VGA camera. The smaller battery is likely intended to spur sales of an upcoming (drum roll) Palm-branded 2200mAh battery! And replacing the 1.3mp camera with a VGA one makes sense if you think about how long it'd take to upload 1+mp images over an EDGE connection. I've taken some pics on my 700P's camera that were too large to be sent via a picture message and had to go over e-mail instead!

Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5-->TX-->Treo 700P

The low-end POS/ High-end WM5 paradigm
Surur @ 8/10/2006 10:23:33 AM # Q

Unfortunately the Nitro isnt just a 700p with the antenna lobbed of. Its smaller and thinner, and the battery is a different, flatter, wider shape. Your old Seido battery will not work. Even the SIM card is now in the standard place, under th battery.

Saying they only used VGA because of EDGE is giving Palm too much credit. Remeber the old Cobalt plans, where they were going to use Cobalt for high-end handhelds, and Garnet for cheap phones? Or was it the other wa around.

With this move its clear that they felt, if they cant match the technology in the Lennon, they might as wel go all the way to a low cost device. This is the advent of the low-end POS/ High-end WM5 paradigm.

Surur

They said I only argued for the sake of arguing, but after an hour I convinced them they were wrong...
Hey!! I made associate writer at PDA247. Come see my nattering over there!!
http;//www.clieuk.co.uk/wm.shtml

RE: Palm, you bastards
T_W @ 8/10/2006 11:00:16 AM # Q
>This is the advent of the low-end POS/ High-end WM5 paradigm.

Dude, with your inherent spinning capabilities your wasting your time sitting in you mother's basement posting to every conceivable handheld message board.

You really should go into politics.

RE: Palm, you bastards
Surur @ 8/10/2006 11:46:31 AM # Q

Hey, how about refuting the argument instead. Is it not true that the W will be high-end, and the P low-end?

There is an interesting rumour on TC at the moment, saying that the Sprint Treo 700wx will have 64 MB SDRAM, vs the paltry 32 that Palm tried to get away with before. It looks like Palm is learning how to play the game in the WM world.

Surur

They said I only argued for the sake of arguing, but after an hour I convinced them they were wrong...
Hey!! I made associate writer at PDA247. Come see my nattering over there!!
http;//www.clieuk.co.uk/wm.shtml

RE: Palm, you bastards
hkklife @ 8/10/2006 12:39:30 PM # Q
I honestly see nothing wrong with using POS/Garnet for "low to midrange" devices and WM for high-end.

If I want bells'n whistles, I'll take my laptop.

I'd rather have a stable, FAST implementation of FrankenGarnet than a hacked-up mess like the LD was where Palm tries to make the rickety old OS do more than it's capable of.


Remember, the mythical 320*480 TX + T3 hybrid or the HVGA Treo (Pat's 800g) would be easily doable with off the shelf tech that's been used in numerous earlier Palm devices.

Coming up with solid OS 5.x devices is more of a question of Palm's beancounters + marketing department wanting to make the effort vs. any inherent technical limitation.

The TX didn't have a charge LED, a mic or a cradle because Palm wanted to save as much as possible on it. It wasn't because Garnet couldn't support those basic essentials.

The 700P doesn't have a larger 320*320 screen because Palm doesn't want to retool and have a slightly larger FF.


Surur's point is perfectly valid and reasonable. I'd even advocated it since the 700W rumors were in the works.

If I were Sprint I'd try to squeeze Palm to shoehorn the 700wx into the new GSM FF AND include the 64mb RAM! The reception on my 700P on Verizon is so much worse than my Moto V3c was before that it might as well have an internal antenna.

Surur et al:
Will both of the upcoming GSM Treos continue to use SD or is Palm going to mini-SD? Any word on SDHC compatability?


Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5-->TX-->Treo 700P

RE: Palm, you bastards
Surur @ 8/10/2006 12:57:51 PM # Q
There are conflicting reports (re the memory slot)

1) From the leaked pictures, the slot is definitely wide enough for a SD card.

2) The Chinese website which leaked the pictures said it uses SD.

but

1) some-one on TC who says they have one says it uses miniSD

2) there has been rumors that it uses miniSD for some time.
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&safe=off&q=miniSD+treo+lennon

but even worse

1) the recent HTC TyTN and HTC MTeoR uses microSD (transflash)

2) the pictures from the Chinese website shows a card in the card slot, and that card is microSD size.
http://forum.brighthand.com/showthread.php?t=226519&page=2

Now you know as much as i do :)

Surur

They said I only argued for the sake of arguing, but after an hour I convinced them they were wrong...
Hey!! I made associate writer at PDA247. Come see my nattering over there!!
http;//www.clieuk.co.uk/wm.shtml

MiniSD and MicroSD (TransFlash) are a scam by SanDisk
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 8/10/2006 2:32:35 PM # Q
The new formats are utterly useless (SD is already small enough) and were created by SanDisk simply so they could charge a premium price for memory cards (which are quickly commoditized). After seeing how quickly Garmin and other manufacturers started putting the new formats into devices that could EASILY take SD cards (less expensive, larger capacity) it underscored how sleazy the whole electronics industry is. No doubt SanDisk gives the manufacturers a kickback to "encourage" them to adopt the new formats, even for devices that are made LESS useful by the inclusion of the newer formats. Sony did the exact same thing with Memory Stick "Duo" and their latest, Memory Stick "Micro" (M2). Pathetic.

I liked Sony's original CLIE, but it's indirectly responsible for me ending up in Memory Stick Hell:

Memory Stick
Magicgate Memory Stick
Memory Stick Select
Memory Stick PRO
Memory Stick DUO
Memory Stick PRO DUO
Magicgate Memory Stick DUO
Memory Stick Micro

(But it is nice to be able to take photos with a Cybershot, then pop out the Memory Stick and view them on a CLIE PDA, VAIO laptop or Wega TV...)


TVoR

RE: Palm, you bastards
hkklife @ 8/10/2006 4:05:32 PM # Q
Every format of flash memory card, starting with the ATA PCMCIA cards of the mid 90s, has been rife with incompatabilities, hollow promises, quirks, and size constraints. ALL of them, I'll wager, are artificially induced by the flash memory companies.

PCMCIA type II &III, CF type I & II, SM 5v & 3.3v, MMC/SD, FAT32 SD, non-spec SD, SDHC et al. It's an absolute nightmare for someone of even advanced technical proficiency to figure it all out.

I'd personally love to see the industry shake out into three camps:

-CF for DSLR and industrial-style devices where size is required and space is not at a premium

-SDHC for the VAST majority of electronic devices (mainstream cameras, PDAs, mp3 players etc)

-Mini-SD for cell phones & some products where small size is a necessity. I'd personally agree with Voice that SD is small enough but you know the manufacturers will b***h so you've gotta give them a smaller size card as a concession, so it might as well be Mini-SD.

xD, TF/Micro-SD, Memory Stick Micro, RS-MMC etc are simply TOO small, TOO fragile, and TOO expensive to be worthwhile.



Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5-->TX-->Treo 700P

SD slot
freakout @ 8/10/2006 7:01:04 PM # Q
Surur, I think it's still a standard SD slot. It looks exactly the right size - if I hold my current SD card beside my 650 in the same position, it looks identical to that photo.

I suspect that little grey bit is a latch that holds the cover closed.

Tim
I apologise for any and all emoticons that appear in my posts. You may shoot them on sight.
Treo 270 ---> Treo 650

Reply to this comment

Possible Reason for Lack of WiFi?

merf71 @ 8/10/2006 12:14:44 PM # Q
I don't know if I've ever seen this addressed before in these forums. Is it possible that carriers don't want WiFi because corporate IT departments (or anyone for that matter) could then install VoIP clients on the devices? In addition to the other benefits of WiFi, this would allow coporate users to bypass carrier services while at WiFi enabled facilities - work and home. Carrier services would then only be needed when the user isn't in range of a WiFi access point. Then, what about cities that are setting up city-wide WiFi service? In those cases, what need would a user have for a wireless carrier at all? Wireless carriers are in this business to make money, not bend over backwards to give their customers access to features that would undermine their end goal - surviving.

RE: Possible Reason for Lack of WiFi?
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 8/10/2006 1:44:06 PM # Q
Yes, carriers fear (ph33R) Wi-Fi. Only problem is the genie is already out of the bottle: Several GSM Wi-Fi phones are available, with more announced every week. CDMA carriers have been better able to keep Wi-Fi phones out of the hands of customers, but this also inevitably will change.

The rest of the world isn't waiting for the carriers to catch up. Check out the 2 Wi-Fi Skype phones listed here:

http://us.accessories.skype.com/direct/skypeusa/accessoriesList.jsp?heading=Phones&acctype=8

And then there's Google... (Ever wonder why eBay - rather than Google - bought Skype? Because these modern "phone" companies can go from have no market share to cornering the market within just a couple years. Old business practices are now redundant.)

TVoR


RE: Possible Reason for Lack of WiFi?
Foo Fighter @ 8/10/2006 2:29:13 PM # Q
>> "Is it possible that carriers don't want WiFi because corporate IT departments (or anyone for that matter) could then install VoIP clients on the devices?"

Yes, I already pointed this out last month in response to PJ Arts article over at Palm Addict titled "Why-Fi?". Read my thoughts here...

http://www.1src.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=114584

I busted a gut laughing after he posted an attack against me (and others) for my assertion..and even went so far as to accuse me of libel and slander against Palm. As if I were a criminal for even presenting the argument that Palm chooses to neglect WiFi in order to appease carriers. What a radical I am.

-------------------------------
PocketFactory, www.pocketfactory.com
Elitist Snob, www.elitistsnob.com

RE: Possible Reason for Lack of WiFi?
dorelse @ 8/10/2006 4:08:27 PM # Q
Yeah, people still think that Palm leaves it off b/c they don't want to do it? Or don't know how?

Of course not. The cellphone companies want it out so that you HAVE to use their services for those features.

Its how they make more money!!! Exclusivity.



RE: Possible Reason for Lack of WiFi?
Surur @ 8/10/2006 4:15:47 PM # Q
P. F.Arts is offensive and full of hot air.

Surur

They said I only argued for the sake of arguing, but after an hour I convinced them they were wrong...
Hey!! I made associate writer at PDA247. Come see my nattering over there!!
http;//www.clieuk.co.uk/wm.shtml

RE: Possible Reason for Lack of WiFi?
Foo Fighter @ 8/10/2006 4:39:34 PM # Q
>> "Yeah, people still think that Palm leaves it off b/c they don't want to do it? Or don't know how?"

Peter's view is even more comical, and dramatic. It's a page right out of circa 2001 Palm Zen-fetishist. His conjecture is that Palm excludes WiFi in order to maintain the simplicity, elegance, and overall usability of the "Treo experience". The inclusion of WiFi, he claims, would simply consume battery life, adding weight and greater complexity to the Treo's seamless design. What utter rubbish.

He acts as though Palm came to this decision as part of some grand vision of mobile Utopia. Business strategy and customer demand is what dictates these decisions, not delusions of grandeur. Anyone who doesn't know this shouldn't be writing about the mobile device market, or any other segment of technology.


-------------------------------
PocketFactory, www.pocketfactory.com
Elitist Snob, www.elitistsnob.com

RE: Possible Reason for Lack of WiFi?
jfme @ 8/10/2006 7:11:58 PM # Q
"Yes, carriers fear (ph33R) Wi-Fi."

TMobile does not. They have a Wi-Fi service...

If the 750 does not come with built-in wifi....I think many will be dissapointed.

RE: Possible Reason for Lack of WiFi?
AdamaDBrown @ 8/10/2006 10:46:54 PM # Q
PJ Arts article over at Palm Addict titled "Why-Fi?".

I hadn't seen that. My god, what claptrap. Not only does he manage to come off as an incredibly obnoxious fanboy, whose argument boils down to "The Treo is perfect so everyone who says bad things is wrong," but he also manages to bumble basic facts. For instance, WiFi is no more power draining than internet via cellular--often less so. Or the fact that WiFi is still 5-10 times faster than EVDO. (By the way, it's EvDO, EVDO, or EV-DO, not "EvDo," and 3G, not "G3." On that subject, TFTs are a kind of LCD, not a completely different thing.) Or the fact that you can turn WiFi off if you don't want it! And the brass to invite debate without malice, then when he gets debate without malice, he goes nuts and basically says that his is the only right opinion and anyone who doesn't own and love a Treo should shut up. Geez, this reminds me a lot of US politics.

RE: Possible Reason for Lack of WiFi?
cervezas @ 8/11/2006 12:13:51 PM # Q
TMobile does not. They have a Wi-Fi service...

So does AT&T (Cingular). So does Verizon. Once the carriers get a big enough piece of the WiFi action I think we'll see a lot more interest from them in WiFi enabled devices--including converged devices that can roam between WiFi and cellular networks.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: Possible Reason for Lack of WiFi?
cervezas @ 8/11/2006 12:31:58 PM # Q
And then there's Sprint, which is rolling out a 4G WiMax network that will be used in both fixed and mobile wireless applications, blurring the distinction between the two.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com/blog
RE: Possible Reason for Lack of WiFi?
vip_m @ 8/11/2006 1:25:28 PM # Q
What about Nokia? their new business phones that'll compete with Palm and RIM are all wi-fi capable: Nokia E-series (E61, E70,etc.)
RE: Possible Reason for Lack of WiFi?
cervezas @ 8/11/2006 1:39:46 PM # Q
What about Nokia?

As yet, no word about any of the E series phones being picked up by US carriers.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: Possible Reason for Lack of WiFi?
Foo Fighter @ 8/11/2006 3:14:06 PM # Q
>> "As yet, no word about any of the E series phones being picked up by US carriers."

Au contraire...Cingular will be picking up its own version of the E61, minus WiFi, christened E62. The lack of WiFi was what motivated me to adopt the unlocked GSM model rather than wait for Cingular's official model.

-------------------------------
PocketFactory, www.pocketfactory.com
Elitist Snob, www.elitistsnob.com

RE: Possible Reason for Lack of WiFi?
Foo Fighter @ 8/11/2006 3:50:55 PM # Q
>> "My god, what claptrap. Not only does he manage to come off as an incredibly obnoxious fanboy, whose argument boils down to "The Treo is perfect so everyone who says bad things is wrong," but he also manages to bumble basic facts."

Well keep in mind this is the same chap who published that so-called "Interview" with PalmSource regarding PalmOS's future, which in reality amounted to nothing more than a press release cut'n'paste. Peter seems to live in his own little reality.

-------------------------------
PocketFactory, www.pocketfactory.com
Elitist Snob, www.elitistsnob.com

RE: Possible Reason for Lack of WiFi?
cervezas @ 8/12/2006 12:02:25 PM # Q
Cingular will be picking up its own version of the E61, minus WiFi, christened E62.

Kind of makes the point about the operators not wanting WiFi, huh? If Nokia can be pushed around to cripple their handsets, how is Palm in a position to resist?

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: Possible Reason for Lack of WiFi?
anand_dh @ 4/18/2007 3:45:16 PM # Q
The Carriers are worried about you using Voip with Wifi on these phones. I have a Nokia E61 and have Voip service on it from www.truphone.com. Truphone is promoting its service with free calls to any number in the US till end of July'07. After that, there will be no incoming charges, calls to all other truphone users will be free, no monthly charges, only pay for what you use, low international calling rates, and the list of benefits keeps going on and on. I have Wifi both at home and at work and make bulk of my calls from these two places.

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Can't even consider buying it

Adif @ 8/10/2006 8:24:17 PM # Q
Boeing doesn't allow camera-enabled devices to be brought on site. If they add a camera to the next PDA I just might cry.

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WinMob is Priority?

Gekko @ 8/10/2006 9:47:27 PM # Q

I'm surprised nobody commented on this.

The Treo 700 and the 750 both emerged with WinMob first with POS second.

The WinMob Rules?!

RE: WinMob is Priority?
craigdts @ 8/10/2006 10:09:02 PM # Q
I doubt it's a secret that it's much easier to put out a WM device. Much of the work has been done by microsoft already. I'm sure carriers find something comforting about WM because of its standardization - speeding its move from certification to market. Having an OS tested on many different devices (from all the different vendors) helps work out the kinks in the OS at a much faster rate than Palm OS one device.

Palm OS takes longer because palm is having to write all the code and then get it certified by the carriers. Knowing the code has been altered and needs to be retested most likely lengthens the process.

To me that's a strong argument for Palm - WM reduces their time to market and reduces R&D costs. Although they may pay more for the license (it seems to pay off in that they can diversify their product line faster)

The main positive of Palm OS is that there are no competitors in that market. They are it. That alone will keep them making Palm OS Treos.

RE: WinMob is Priority?
Gekko @ 8/10/2006 10:30:40 PM # Q

oh, how far we've come...

"In the (still pretty convincing) world according to Nagel, the PC model won't work, the Palmsource approach of having a looser set of standards for a looser coalition of licensees will, and furthermore, having those licensees innovate and then put the results back into the pile means the Palmsource platform can and will develop faster than the Microsoft one."

Published Tuesday 12th November 2002 13:14 GMT

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2002/11/12/why_palm_will_succeed/



RE: WinMob is Priority?
craigdts @ 8/10/2006 10:35:56 PM # Q
He's partly right. The Palm OS model allowed for the creation of the Treo (when others were still thinking PDA - waiting on MS to catch up - who mind you was in no hurry), which saved Palm, Inc. It helped popularized one handed navigation.

Palm is faced with a dilemma - (1) we take back control of an OS (top layer) - with the core being linux creating category defining products (ipod and treo types) or (2) take the treo name and pump out WM devices with minor alterations - possibly ending up like Dell (can be good: PCs or bad: PDAs which they have abandoned).


RE: WinMob is Priority?
craigdts @ 8/10/2006 11:00:27 PM # Q
Oh, well Palm could do like they are doing now - both (1) and (2).
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Is 'more memory' suffiicent 'enhancement' to qualify?

SeldomVisitor @ 8/11/2006 8:16:07 AM # Q
PALM said awhile back - strangely unprompted but scripted:

== "...In our conference call last quarter, I shared with you that
== Palm would introduce four new smartphones in calendar year 2006.
== When I say new smartphones, I am referring to a combination of
== operating system, new hardware design, new radio technology or
== other significant advancement..."

More recently, again scripted (thus explicitly planned), they said:

== "...You will see two additional smartphones this calendar year
== in the new fiscal year's first half as promised.
== On their heels or more, these introductions will be
== distinguished by new hardware design, new radio technology or
== other significant advancement and always feature the Palm
== experience, our hallmark ease of use..."

[btw - that "on their heels or more" is a really strange way of putting this, IMHO - it obfuscates what they're trying to say]

So...

We know about the GSM TREO - tada! - #3.

But is a Sprint TREO sufficiently changed, like with more memory, say, to qualify as #4?

That is, forget about a low-end TREO anytime soon and isntead just add a different memory chip to a TREO 700w, call it the TREO 700wx and voila!??

What is sufficient, given PALM's words above, to qualify as "new TREO"?

=======

Of course, being the PALM-pessimist that I am, I sincerely believe PALM scripted the two sets of words above because they got totally blind-sided by, among others, Motorola and are now scrambling to come up with something competitive and had to DROP plans for what WOULD HAVE BEEN the "4th TREO" so had to replace THAT with something doable in the shortterm due to the promise of "4 TREOs in 2006"...but I'm a PALM-pessimist, admittedly...

RE: Is 'more memory' suffiicent 'enhancement' to qualify?
craigdts @ 8/11/2006 8:42:14 AM # Q
In answer to you question: No. - but if you do want to count the Sprint 700wx - then that 5 new smartphones this year from palm.

"[btw - that "on their heels or more" is a really strange way of putting this, IMHO - it obfuscates what they're trying to say]"

I don't think it's that complex - it's just a typo - "or" should be "are." - meaning the four by the end of '06 are a done deal and they are now looking towards new products.

RE: Is 'more memory' suffiicent 'enhancement' to qualify?
SeldomVisitor @ 8/11/2006 8:51:31 AM # Q
I am confused, admittedly - what are #3 and #4 in your opinion?

RE: Is 'more memory' suffiicent 'enhancement' to qualify?
Surur @ 8/11/2006 9:29:45 AM # Q

I am sure the 4 are:

700w
700p
750w
Nitro

I believe the 700wx was forced on them by Sprint, due to the sluggish acceptance and high return rate of the 700w. Likewise some changes were forced on them by vodaphone also for the 750w, causing their delay in release there. Some speculate it was to add wifi to the european version. Its almost standard there in high end handhelds, such as the HTC Tytn, HTC Universal, Nokia E61 and Sony Erricson p990. We will just have to wait and see.

Surur

They said I only argued for the sake of arguing, but after an hour I convinced them they were wrong...
Hey!! I made associate writer at PDA247. Come see my nattering over there!!
http;//www.clieuk.co.uk/wm.shtml

RE: Is 'more memory' suffiicent 'enhancement' to qualify?
hkklife @ 8/11/2006 10:47:28 AM # Q
I'd actually consider the extra memory on the 700wx, especially consider that a proper "x" model hasn't been done by Palm since the VIIx, very notable and worthy of being

Look how successful the Treo 650 was-it's been on the market for ~2 years now. If any Palm device ever needed a mid-life "x" RAM boost it was the 650. Since that didn't happen with the 650, selling in huge numbers worldwide in CDMA & GSM flavors, Sprint managing to single-handedly exert enough pressure to get Palm to release a 700wx is HUGE news--especially so in terms of the PalmCONomy worldview.



Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5-->TX-->Treo 700P

RE: Is 'more memory' suffiicent 'enhancement' to qualify?
hkklife @ 8/11/2006 12:05:03 PM # Q
Has anyone heard if there are any tweaks whatsoever (aside from boosting the RAM) from the 700w on Verizon to the 700wx on Sprint?

I'd assume a better software bundle from Sprint but are any OS enhancements or anything rumored to have been made by Palm to accomodate Sprint?

Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5-->TX-->Treo 700P

RE: Is 'more memory' suffiicent 'enhancement' to qualify?
Surur @ 8/11/2006 1:38:56 PM # Q

A big difference is that it will support DUN out of the box. Otherwise no big changes. It will probably have MSFP built-in from the start. There is a chance it will have the latest version AKU 2.3, and probably no chance it has the very latest experimental version, AKU 3.

Surur

They said I only argued for the sake of arguing, but after an hour I convinced them they were wrong...
Hey!! I made associate writer at PDA247. Come see my nattering over there!!
http;//www.clieuk.co.uk/wm.shtml

RE: Is 'more memory' suffiicent 'enhancement' to qualify?
SeldomVisitor @ 8/11/2006 8:35:16 PM # Q
> I am sure the 4 are:
>
> 700w
> 700p
> 750w
> Nitro

I am sure only of the first two.

I suspect, due to PALM-pessimism, that the CEO's "clarification" of what he meant by "4 new TREOs in calendar 2006" that you'll find the two next still-unknown TREOs to probably be the GSM antenna-less one and the Sprint TREO with nothing much more than extra memory.

We'll see!


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'leaked' pictures of TREOs secret code

SeldomVisitor @ 8/25/2006 7:34:36 AM # Q
I was looking at some more "leaked" (giggle) pictures of some sort of TREO and noticed that, though the person doing the "leaking" (giggle) had painted out an identifying number above the top of the display, there remained three distinctly-visible small lines around the edge of the display that, never having held one of these guys so purely guessing, could be positioned for a numeric encoding...

RE: 'leaked' pictures of TREOs secret code
SeldomVisitor @ 8/30/2006 8:51:18 AM # Q
Secret code perfectly visible - looks like 4 lines, though, not 3:

-- http://forum.mypdacafe.com/viewtopic.php?t=11231

So...are those doing the leaking gonna get sued, fired, congratulated, what?

Inquiring minds wanna know...giggle.

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Surur @ 8/30/2006 9:00:57 AM # Q
He explicitly says he got permission to post the pictures, so I suspect no heads will roll.

If fact, I think Palm must be upset by how little fanfare is accompanying the upcoming launch of their new devices. The rabid PalmOS faithful obviously are not going to get excited by these WM devices, and can only look forward to a less than point upgrade to the Treo 650. (Compare this with the Treo 700p hysteria.) WM users could probably hardly care less, as there are plenty of better specified devices to get excited about. They may still buy a Treo 700/750, but it doesnt really have the specs of their dream device, has it?

Surur

They said I only argued for the sake of arguing, but after an hour I convinced them they were wrong...
Hey!! I made associate writer at PDA247. Come see my nattering over there!!
www.clieuk.co.uk/wm.shtml

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