New Treos on Cingular in October?

Rumor: Engadget has obtained information showing the possible launch details for two new Palm Treo models. The document shows small pictures of two devices called the Palm Lennon and Palm Nitro and lists release dates for Cingular in October.

The first device is listed as the PalmOne Lennon, it looks very similar to the Treo Hollywood images that were leaked earlier. It shows that it is a Windows Mobile device and uses the UMTS network protocol. It is also shown to include or support Wi-Fi, the MSFP "push-email" update and a 1.3 megapixel camera. The image also shows the lack of an external antenna.

New Treo Cingular rumor

The second device shown is labeled the Palm Nitro. The display of the device is showing a standard Palm OS launcher screen and there is also no external antenna. It is safe to assume both smartphone models will operate on GSM networks.

An analyst report from late last year indicated Palm was working on a 3G/GSM smartphone that was likely aimed at Europe and would be launched by Cingular in the US. The same report also detailed that Palm was working on a sub-$300 device utilizing previous generation technology for a more affordable smartphone.

Palm's CEO Ed Colligan previously stated the company would release 4 Treo models in 2006. If this document is accurate, these two models could be the remaining two new Treo's promised by Palm for this year. The company has already released the Treo 700w and 700p.

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Sweet...

goat_fajitas @ 6/27/2006 3:18:40 PM # Q
I can't wait. Hopefully will be a bit thinner too.

RE: Sweet...
Timothy Rapson @ 6/27/2006 9:53:24 PM # Q
They better be thinner, cheaper, quicker, and offer better battery life. The competition is getting fierce in the SmartPhone arena.
Motorola has really gone after this market with some killer products. Hope Treo can step up to the task.

RE: Sweet...
cervezas @ 6/27/2006 10:10:26 PM # Q
Timothy Rapson wrote:
Motorola has really gone after this market with some killer products.

Like what? The Q? Have you tried using a Motorola Q?

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: Sweet...
freakout @ 6/27/2006 10:26:12 PM # Q
"better battery life"

Erm, is that a joke? The Treo has a bloody fantastic battery life currently; it's certainly streets ahead of your usual dumbphone/iPod.

Tim
I apologise for any and all emoticons that appear in my posts. You may shoot them on sight.
Treo 270 ---> Treo 650

RE: Sweet...
SeldomVisitor @ 6/28/2006 7:15:51 AM # Q
The "specs" say that one model of the TREO gets about 4.5 hours of talk time and the Q gets about 4 hours.

Streets ahead?

Yeah...maybe...I guess so...

At twice the price.

RE: Sweet...
freakout @ 6/28/2006 7:33:20 AM # Q
And thrice the quality. :P

Tim
I apologise for any and all emoticons that appear in my posts. You may shoot them on sight.
Treo 270 ---> Treo 650
RE: Sweet...
scstraus2 @ 6/28/2006 5:16:40 PM # Q
If the PalmOS one doesn't have UMTS I'm not getting it. I'll keep my 650 or go elsewhere. Why won't Palm just give me a nice high end GSM phone running PalmOS? I'll pay top dollar, just give me the damn thing. No, I'm not going to Windows Mobile. And if I do it won't be a Palm device. If palm forces me to switch to Windows Mobile, they will have lost me as a customer for good.

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hmm...

medevilenemy @ 6/27/2006 3:44:28 PM # Q
Any hints as to what OS the Nitro may run? Is it possible that it might run the rumored PalmOS Linux being developed by Palm Itself?

RE: hmm...
AdamaDBrown @ 6/27/2006 4:44:42 PM # Q
Most likely it's the same as the 700p.

Reply to this comment

PalmOne?

SeldomVisitor @ 6/27/2006 4:54:47 PM # Q
.

RE: PalmOne?
cervezas @ 6/27/2006 5:08:55 PM # Q
Haven't you heard? They spun off their Windows Mobile group.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog
RE: PalmOne?
SeldomVisitor @ 6/27/2006 6:02:46 PM # Q
Giggle.

Reply to this comment

PalmOne?

LiveFaith @ 6/27/2006 5:03:02 PM # Q
"PalmOne" brings into question, the date of the document. Could the plans have changed from "last year" etc? Will the maroon and yellow P1 beast arise from the ashes? Was someone at CNG just confused (rightfully so) about who the heck makes the Treo anyway?

If this is recent, it look like the Hollywood and Lowrider may be coming to pass. Also, the conjecture that WM for high-end and FrankyG on low end could be coming true as well according to the spec list.

WiFinally! Miracles do happen in Treoville!

Glad I just got a Cingular 650 ... not. Actually, I knew this was coming, so I'll just eBay it and switch if the Palm OS version is a knockout.


My unanswered Questions:
#1 Screen resolutions look terrible. Did they go back to 160x160?
#2 Why monochrome screens? Is Palm getting cheap or what?
#3 Why Lennon? Does it come with a sample of LSD and 90 day membership to the communist party?
#4 Why did they remove the little handle from the top? That makes it sooo easy to get out of my belt pouch. Maybe it'll be sold as an accessory.
:-D


Pat Horne; www.churchoflivingfaith.com

RE: PalmOne?
hkklife @ 6/27/2006 5:21:28 PM # Q
My predictions (aside from more pain?) for Lowrider/Nitro:

-More of a focus on style/colors/bling

-Palm will take the basic trappings of the 700P and shoehorn it into a sleeker package. They will also replace the EVDO stack with the "old" EDGE bits from the Treo 650 GSM.

-I would not be surprised if Palm threw in some onboard storage memory and/or bundled an SD card with it. Even a full size headphone jack wouldn't be totally out of the picture. Either that or a hacked BT 1.2 stack with A2DP support for wireless BT headphones. Basically expect Palm to make amends for the lack of UMTS/HSDPA under FrankenGarnet by putting a few cool bits of tech that will appeal to the media savvy younger crowd. I doubt this will be a $200 smartphone...I predict $300 w/ 2 year contract, essentially slotting into the spot vacated by the outgoing Treo 650. To hit $200 would require Treo 600 & Z22 type screen and RAM technology.

-The final "classic" Palm OS model to be released aside from perhaps a final PDA model (TX2 or T|E3) alongside the new Treos in the fall.

Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5-->TX-->Treo 700P

RE: PalmOne?
cervezas @ 6/27/2006 5:26:50 PM # Q
LiveFaith wrote:
Why did they remove the little handle from the top?

Funny!

You joke but I've been carrying a RAZR around for a while instead of my i500 just to see what everyone else is experiencing and guess what: the lack of an antenna stub is *infuriating*! I don't want it jangling around with my change in my pocket so I use a holster, but I can't get the damned thing out of the holster when it rings because there's nothing to grab. The Samsung is so easy to flip out and pop open.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: PalmOne?
cervezas @ 6/27/2006 5:40:21 PM # Q
I think hkklife has got it exactly right, at least as far as Nitro is concerned: a little thinner and sleeker, EDGE radio, and a few goodies like more storage and better BT to make up for the lack of UMTS networking.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog
RE: PalmOne?
hkklife @ 6/27/2006 5:53:32 PM # Q
The RAZR is near perfection form-factor wise. I detest external antennae. If I had GOOD GSM coverage around me, a v3i + a TX would be near perfection. Unfortunately, I do not so it's a Verizon Treo 700P for the time being.

Traveling in continental Europe and using a friend's cellphone made me aware of the astounding differences in cellular coverage & overall quality between here & there.

I bet more people will get excited over the sleekness & styling of the Nitro UMTS/HSDPA high-speed access.

Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5-->TX-->Treo 700P

RE: PalmOne?
cervezas @ 6/27/2006 6:10:35 PM # Q
hkklife wrote:
The RAZR is near perfection form-factor wise.

That's what everyone says and I thought it might be the case when I first palmed one, but after a month or so I've decided that the form is much more of a liability than a benefit for me. It's awkward to open and hold, it's hard to get the earpiece centered enough on your ear to hear the call (partly a problem of insufficient volume), and the total lack of contour on the flat dialing keypad makes it impossible to use without looking at the phone. I'm obviously in a minority, but I find it hard to understand why people think this is a usable form factor. Pretty as jewelry, perhaps, but not usable as a phone.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

Are they dropping the Treo brand?
freakout @ 6/27/2006 6:14:44 PM # Q
^^ Are we sure Nitro is going to be UMTS? If it's running Garnet, it'll probably have the same tech problems as before that were preventing a GSM 700p, right? Shame really, 'cause I'm certainly getting one.

The other question: are these codenames - Lennon sounds kinda stupid, although Nitro is pretty cool - and if not, will they still be known as Treos, or just as Palms?

Tim
I apologise for any and all emoticons that appear in my posts. You may shoot them on sight.
Treo 270 ---> Treo 650

RE: PalmOne?
Surur @ 6/27/2006 6:15:14 PM # Q
From the leaked pictures, the GSM Treos will be slightly thinner, but not markedly so. Certainly not enough to call them sleek (Like Razr or Q sleek).

Surur

They said I only argued for the sake of arguing, but after an hour I convinced them they were wrong...

RE: PalmOne?
cervezas @ 6/27/2006 6:27:05 PM # Q
Are we sure Nitro is going to be UMTS?

I'm pretty sure it's not going to be UMTS. Which is why hkklife was referring to Palm having to "make amends."


David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: PalmOne?
freakout @ 6/27/2006 7:43:30 PM # Q
Whoops, missed that post. Has anyone else noticed that PIC is a little erratic in how quickly it displays new posts? I can read an article one day and make a post, and then come back to read mine and see that three new ones appeared in the tree above it overnight. Weird.

As to the RAZR, David, I agree: it's formfactor is pretty but it's not a particular great phone. A very overrated device.

Tim
I apologise for any and all emoticons that appear in my posts. You may shoot them on sight.
Treo 270 ---> Treo 650

RE: PalmOne?
cervezas @ 6/27/2006 8:01:30 PM # Q
freakout wrote:
Has anyone else noticed that PIC is a little erratic in how quickly it displays new posts?

As far as I can tell the server makes a timestamp at the time you click the "Reply to this comment" button and uses that to sort the comments in a thread (as opposed to setting the timestamp when you click "Post Comment"). So if you're TVoR and spend two or three hours laboriously composing a 65 line post there may have had a few others post in the interim. When you actually hit "Post Comment" your comment could be inserted above those others.


David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: PalmOne?
AdamaDBrown @ 6/27/2006 8:06:13 PM # Q
You joke but I've been carrying a RAZR around for a while instead of my i500 just to see what everyone else is experiencing and guess what: the lack of an antenna stub is *infuriating*! I don't want it jangling around with my change in my pocket so I use a holster, but I can't get the damned thing out of the holster when it rings because there's nothing to grab. The Samsung is so easy to flip out and pop open.

Buy yourself a Krusell leather/elastic case. I've got one for my Motorola v360, and it's great. You can leave the phone in all the time, and it's form-fitting, so you don't have to deal with slippage.

RE: PalmOne?
gbrinkman @ 6/27/2006 9:23:17 PM # Q
cervezas wrote about the Razr:
and the total lack of contour on the flat dialing keypad makes it impossible to use without looking at the phone

Were you comparing this to the Treo or other mobile phones? I am assuming other phones as the Treo is completely impossible to use without looking at it. Sometimes it is even tough to use while looking at it :)


RE: PalmOne?
cervezas @ 6/27/2006 9:46:30 PM # Q
gbrinkman wrote:
Were you comparing [the RAZR] to the Treo or other mobile phones? I am assuming other phones as the Treo is completely impossible to use without looking at it. Sometimes it is even tough to use while looking at it :)

Exactly. I have the same beef with the Treo. I sacrifice too much "phone" to get my "smart" OS. The Samsung i500 (which I mentioned is my usual Palm OS smartphone) doesn't have this problem because it has a nice 12-button keypad with fat, raised buttons.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: PalmOne?
freakout @ 6/27/2006 10:20:58 PM # Q
^^ Oh, you big babies! :P

As a touch-typist, my Treo's thumboard makes it easy to use without looking at it. There's a notch on "F" key that makes it dead simple to find your location. If you've got contacts in your Favourites with a keyboard letter as the shortcut, it's a cinch. IMHO.

Tim
I apologise for any and all emoticons that appear in my posts. You may shoot them on sight.
Treo 270 ---> Treo 650

RE: PalmOne?
vixensjlin @ 6/27/2006 10:43:56 PM # Q
hkklife @ 6/27/2006 5:21:28 wrote
".... I doubt this will be a $200 smartphone...I predict $300 w/ 2 year contract, essentially slotting into the spot vacated by the outgoing Treo 650. To hit $200 would require Treo 600 & Z22 type screen and RAM technology....."

I guess you are talking about the MSRP, right? Because Amazon is offering Verizon Treo 700P at $299 after rebate. I truly hope there will be a $200 smartphone, for street price at least.

By the way, could somebody explain me why that PalmOS can not handle mutitasking stops 3G support? Treo 700P does support EVDO and it runs on PalmOS, why UTMS/HSDPA makes difference?

RE: PalmOne?
LiveFaith @ 6/28/2006 1:38:09 AM # Q
Dave bail me out here, but UMTS requires the ability to switch radios mid-stream if I'm not mistaken. FrankyG just aint going there.

Pat Horne
RE: PalmOne?
hkklife @ 6/28/2006 10:11:59 AM # Q
I was referring to Nitro's launch pricing by the carriers themselves, not resellers who offer huge rebates that usualy fail to materialize (Amazon, Chinatown cell shops etc). I'd expect the Nitro to be still positioned price-wise above the Q (at least where Verizon is pricing the CDMA Q now) due primarily to the flexibility of the platform and its touchscreen.

On a related note, CompUSA stores are now selling unlocked GSM phones. I saw a few Nokias, SLVR and a RAZR there last week. Maybe a sign of things to come for th retail cell phone market?



Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5-->TX-->Treo 700P

RE: PalmOne?
cervezas @ 6/28/2006 10:19:19 AM # Q
Dave bail me out here, but UMTS requires the ability to switch radios mid-stream if I'm not mistaken. FrankyG just aint going there.

Basically, I think the requirement is that it be able to run and control concurrent data and voice streams without either being interrupted. And yeah, barring currently unsupported hacks or pretty dramatic changes, I don't see Garnet as capable of doing that.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: PalmOne?
vixensjlin @ 6/29/2006 3:52:24 AM # Q
That's strange. The UMTS standard requires a phone be able to handle voice and data simultaneously, but EVDO does not? I thought EVDO is more advanced and quicker than UMTS.

RE: PalmOne?
Surur @ 6/29/2006 5:04:24 AM # Q

EVDO may be faster, but its not more advanced. Only the next revision of EVDO will have simultaneous voice and data.

Surur

They said I only argued for the sake of arguing, but after an hour I convinced them they were wrong...

RE: PalmOne?
freakout @ 6/29/2006 6:06:48 AM # Q
It goes (very, very roughly) like this:

EV-DO is from the CDMA2000 family of standards. It theory it supports data speeds of up to 2.5mbps, but most users seem to report about 300-700kbps data rates. It is limited to a 1.25mhz carrier signal. Does not currently support simultaneous voice and data, but that will change with Revision A which will also boost the on-paper data rate to 3.1mbps.

Original Flavour UMTS is a GSM standard limited to 384kbps, but allows simultaneous voice and data (provided you've got total UMTS coverage and there aren't any standard GSM towers lurking about). UMTS uses a 5mhz carrier for it's signal, which means it can handle greater numbers of users better than EVDO which in theory should allow for better average data rates for users.

HSPDA Flavour UMTS could and sometimes is called 3.5G. Pretty much any carrier who supports UMTS will have devices that support it. In theory it operates at 3.6mbs, but I haven't read much about such devices and thus couldn't tell you what the real-world results would be like.

In short: don't believe the American telcos BS about CDMA fool you. It's a decent but inferior technology and GSM has been the obvious global winner for quite some time now.

Tim
I apologise for any and all emoticons that appear in my posts. You may shoot them on sight.
Treo 270 ---> Treo 650

RE: PalmOne?
freakout @ 6/29/2006 6:49:11 AM # Q
"In short: don't believe the American telcos BS about CDMA fool you."

This place needs an edit function. *Please* give us an edit function!

RE: PalmOne?
javispedro @ 6/29/2006 8:16:25 AM # Q
Basically, I think the requirement is that it be able to run and control concurrent data and voice streams without either being interrupted. And yeah, barring currently unsupported hacks or pretty dramatic changes, I don't see Garnet as capable of doing that.
That's not entirely true. Garnet is a fully multitasking OS, and one of the best microkernels out there. It is fully capable of doing such a task.
However, none of the smartphones do use their core OS for typical phone tasks, they usually throw in another CPU, and let the smartphone OS send Hayes-like modem commands to the phone CPU.

RE: PalmOne?
cervezas @ 6/29/2006 8:23:37 AM # Q
Garnet is a fully multitasking OS, and one of the best microkernels out there. It is fully capable of doing such a task.

The problem isn't the kernel, which as you point out is perfectly capable of multitasking. The problem is the framework the Palm OS runs on top of the kernel. The UI application shell runs all applications as a subroutine of a single UI event loop. If it were easy to make this architecture compliant with the UMTS standard I'm sure Palm would have done it by now. One possibility (short of developing a new OS, which is what they are doing) would be to create a separate framework just for the telephony application. Then they'd have to hack in some kind of interprocess communication to get the phone to play nice with the Palm OS (which, after all, is supposed to be the Treo's strong suit, right?)

This is just my impression from what I know as a Palm OS application developer of several years. I'm not an OS architect but I keep waiting for one to come along and set me straight on this and it never seems to happen.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: PalmOne?
javispedro @ 6/29/2006 6:16:04 PM # Q
I don't really understand what's the UI Thread doing here? This is a low-level issue, AFAIK.

RE: PalmOne?
cervezas @ 6/29/2006 9:56:05 PM # Q
In Palm OS the UIAS task is normally the only task running and it's the only one through which an application has access to system resources like memory for the stack and dynamic heap. So if you're downloading an email with a large attachment, for example, and then press a button to answer an incoming call, the OS must tell the email client to exit and release the memory it was using for the email download. The client (if it's written properly) saves its state in some graceful way to the storage heap and then exits to allow the system to respond to the user's request to answer the call. The email client (if it's smart enough) may be able to resume the data session when relaunched after the call is complete if the connection is preserved--and paused--during the phone conversation. But it can't download the email in the background of the conversation because it's been torn down to launch the phone app. In terms of the UMTS QoS requirements, the fact that the kernel can keep the data session active is irrelevant: what's important is whether the phone can actually transmit and receive application data concurrently with a voice conversation.

That's my understanding of it.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

Bottom line: PalmOS 5 + 'real' telephony multitasking don't mix.
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 6/29/2006 11:08:53 PM # Q
Beersy, PalmOS 5 cannot handle simultaneous telephony + app functions because - as you know - this is beyond its original (+ repeatedly hacked) architecture. Rewriting an ancient OS to try and keep up with modern multitasking needs is a pointless exercise. Such an OS would be a horrendous kludge and memory management would create nightmares. Not to mention all of the code development + maintenance Palm's small troupe of codemonkeys would have to perform on an obsolete OS.

Cobalt is what Palm needed... TWO YEARS AGO. Trying to scale back the ambitious plans of Cobalt and producing a stripped-down PalmLinux also makes little sense other than the need to once again have ownership of the OS.

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