Comments on: Palm Announces the Treo 750v

Palm Treo 750vPalm today has announced the Treo 750v smartphone, the first Treo smartphone to take advantage of Vodafone's 3G/UMTS network and is also the first Treo running Windows Mobile targeted for Europe. The new Treo 750v will be available first to Vodafone customers in the following countries: Austria, France, Germany, Ireland, Italy, Netherlands, Spain, Switzerland, the UK and other regions by the end of the calendar year.

"The new Treo 750v smartphone -- made available first in Europe -- on the Vodafone 3G/UMTS network is Palm's latest salvo to reach more customers in more regions with an ever-expanding line of compelling Treo smartphones,” said Ed Colligan, president and chief executive officer from Palm. "Expanding the Treo footprint globally is a key focus for Palm, and with collaborative marketing investments in Europe from Palm, Vodafone and Microsoft, we are confident we can captivate mobile professionals and businesses and help them be more productive in the office and on the go.”

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Missing a 'and' and a ','

SeldomVisitor @ 9/12/2006 11:45:49 AM # Q
Perhaps the ambiguity behind the "availability" (*) should have been erased with a word and a punctuation mark?


(*) In the days of Handspring, the word "available" was a giggle. I wonder if PALM continues the tradition with this one?

RE: Missing a 'and' and a ','
scstraus2 @ 9/16/2006 7:53:22 PM # Q
T-3 months until I ditch palm and buy a Nokia. You can put your Windows Mobiles where the sun doesn't shine, Palm. They're not even competitive with everyone else's. Idiots.

Reply to this comment

Palm OS

Rhauer @ 9/12/2006 11:58:58 AM # Q
Can we expect a GSM version with Palm OS. How about wi-fi? Will that ever be built into the Treo. Currently using TX and feeling presure to move to a Treo. I'm really affraid I will miss bigger and better screen and wifi.

RE: Palm OS
LiveFaith @ 9/12/2006 4:47:49 PM # Q
I've gotten used to the screen on my 650 after sidegrading from the T3. But, I still watch movies and read the Bible on the landscape big screen when I take the time. WiFi is not even worth me ranting over ... I'll let hoards of others shake their heads at that ommission.

1200mah power? Uggh, that's 1/3 drop form the 650. Maybe the Samsung 300 and MSFTs super efficient OS :-) will make up the difference. Why not just use the same tech in the 2400mah aftermarket 700/650 battery and slim it down to around 1800? Forget it. I give up trying to figure them out anymore.

Pat Horne

Reply to this comment

No WiFi?

Upke @ 9/12/2006 12:16:23 PM # Q
I just don't understand but perhaps someone can enlighten me. Why would I want bluetooth on an already wireless device? Wouldn't there be more need for WiFi? Agreed you could use it as a wireless modem for Highspeed data acces but still. I would love to buy a treo. I was exited when I heard of Palms plans to introduce a new model in Europe. But this no WiFi policy is really getting annoying. I'll choose WiFi over BT everyday.

Palm powered!
RE: No WiFi?
halcyon @ 9/12/2006 1:35:31 PM # Q
The general argument is that Palm omits wifi to please the carriers that want to sell data plans.

Bluetooth is great for wireless headsets. A must on a high end phone.

RE: No WiFi?
Upke @ 9/12/2006 1:51:19 PM # Q
Ok yeah. I see the point. Headsets are very handy indeed. But still. Such a shame...

Palm powered!
RE: No WiFi?
edoan @ 9/12/2006 2:51:51 PM # Q
Not to mention that you can use BT to HotSync your phone to your PC. I haven't touched a HotSync cable in a very long time.
RE: No WiFi?
LiveFaith @ 9/12/2006 4:54:10 PM # Q
No WiFi! My only explanation at this late date is that Palm's weak position with carriers requires them to suck-up by keeping their phones from being useful for free. Surely their not technologically that pathetic.

Pat Horne
RE: No WiFi?
vip_m @ 9/13/2006 1:32:16 PM # Q
Steve Jobs, in a recent interview with financial analysts, was pestered about Apple coming up with its own cellphone. He replied that their biggest problem are the carriers who dictate what features to put or not to put in their phone. He said they want to make the best product possible but it's difficult to go through tight, corporate "orifices" (Steve's choice of word) to do it. He said it's not in Apple's DNA to have to go through someone's orifice before they are allowed to come up with all the features they want. But, he said, Apple is working on the problem.

I guess Palm has to go through the US orifices while Nokia, which gets most of moolah from the rest of the world and is not as limited by carriers, probably goes through a "bigger" orifice so has more flexibility. The flexibility to actually come out with phones with wi-fi. Nokia though, for some reason, doesn't want to support native synching with the Mac. Considering Mac users fit the profile of Nokia buyers, this is surprising. Once Nokia starts fully supporting the Mac though, watch out Palm.

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Slightly slimmer?

Foo Fighter @ 9/12/2006 12:56:58 PM # Q
That's an ambitious claim considering the trivial difference in thickness between this model and its CDMA sibling. The specs have exceeded my worst fears; no WiFi, still the same bulky (read: FAT) design. The only advantage this model offers is the removal of its stubby antenna, and a slighter lighter battery.

That's about it. I won't be reaching for my credit card when the Cingular model rolls out. If anything I may now move on Cingular's version of the HTC TyTn.

Elitist Snob,

RE: Slightly slimmer?
richardyates @ 9/12/2006 1:06:14 PM # Q
I now *know* Palm have lost the plot. This device will only be available on Vodafone where data costs £2.35/MB in the UK. It has no wifi (I still want bluetooth because its useful handsfree). I almost feel like sending them my Nokia E61 to show what can be done, or even an ipaq hw6910 (though the battery life isn't good on that)

I fear the end is in sight - I go back to palm III days and I don't see a way forward like this

RE: Slightly slimmer?
LiveFaith @ 9/12/2006 4:57:40 PM # Q

Don't send them the Nokia or HTC. Trust me, they know what their up against. Palm execs and engineers probably already use them for personal use anyway!

Palm seems to be acting like a rebellious child, who by their actions is saying "spank me". Except their begging "buy me".

Pat Horne

RE: Slightly slimmer?
hoodoo @ 9/13/2006 9:01:27 AM # Q
Nokia E61? That would be nice. It has nothing to do with Palm omitting wi-fi.

In Canada, Rogers wirelss has just proudly introduced the Nokia E62! Identical to the E61, but without wi-fi.

Reply to this comment

Palm's WinMob Differentiator Strategy

Gekko @ 9/12/2006 2:00:58 PM # Q

Palm's WinMob Differentiator Strategy: "Our WinMob Device is better because our WinMob is Palm-Enhanced".

Say goodbye to FrankenGarnet.

RE: Palm's WinMob Differentiator Strategy
Gekko @ 9/12/2006 3:51:07 PM # Q

"Our WinMob is different and BETTER." -

Unique to the Treo smartphone on Windows Mobile is a suite of software enhancements developed by Palm that underscores its brand promise of fast access, ease of use and simplicity. Examples include the following:

- Today Screen enhancements, which feature the ability to "dial by name” with a few keystrokes on the keyboard, perform a web search directly from the Today Screen and perform one-touch dialing with personalized photo speed dials;
- Ability to manage a call directly from the Today Screen and stay on top of voicemail with on-screen, VCR-like icons, such as rewind, delete and fast-forward controls for easy navigation;
- Ability to ignore a call and quickly compose a text message, such as "In a meeting” or "Can't talk”; and
- Dedicated messaging application for SMS/MMS that is organized in a "chat thread” so users can reference prior messages and use emoticons for a personal touch.

RE: Palm's WinMob Differentiator Strategy
LiveFaith @ 9/12/2006 5:00:20 PM # Q
Step back Sony Walkman, iPod, TiVo etc. That's some pretty lofty goals accomplished!

Pat Horne
Reply to this comment


Gekko @ 9/12/2006 2:03:34 PM # Q

So is this an admission that the antenna is a *BAD* thing?

RE: Antenna
JKingGrim @ 9/12/2006 3:11:10 PM # Q
I think I read somewhere that certain carriers want the antenna. Thats why for instance the gsm wizard has no antenna while the cdma version the apache has an antenna (which is in an odd spot when I'm using the keyboard).

RE: Antenna
AdamaDBrown @ 9/12/2006 3:39:38 PM # Q
I think I read somewhere that certain carriers want the antenna.

This is true--Verizon is very big on the external antenna. They used to require it for all their original phones, though they've eased up on this lately I think.

RE: Antenna
Gekko @ 9/12/2006 3:52:43 PM # Q

Adama - we know why you like the Antenna, but that's a whole other story, for a much different kind of forum.

RE: Antenna
LiveFaith @ 9/12/2006 5:04:42 PM # Q
Gekko. You're a sicko!

Just because someone wants to clean their ears out with it is not your concern.

Pat Horne

Reply to this comment

Questionable choices?

hkklife @ 9/12/2006 9:23:30 PM # Q
-Samsung 300mhz CPU? What happened to Intel? Is this a potential cost-cutting, performance reducing move? Treocentral says this CPU is going to be more energy efficient but the proof's in the real world performance. Somehow this makes me think about the T5 to TX speed & battery size reduction all while Palm claimed Xscale CPU advancements would lead to better battery life (it didn't).

-MiniSD. Change simply for the sake of change. All this will do is annoy and aggravate the consumer and put a few more $ in Sandisk's pockets. With 4gb SDHC now entering the market and 4gb SD cards now <$60 (and 8gb SDHC available by year's end) Palm made another move to put them further behind the competition in external storage $/mb.

-Soft touch paint. Anyone who remember the first generation Zire 72 knows to stay far, FAR away from this stuff. Now I do have a Treo Hard Case (reviewed for PIC) and it's holding up fairly well but it's not my daily use case either. Hopefully this soft touch stuff is able to withstand the rigors of daily use better than what they used on the Zire 72.

-Reduced capacity battery. I can BARELY make it through a 12/13 hour day with my Seidio extended battery on my 700P (and that's with no BT usage). Reducing battery life in a "next gen" product is NEVER a wise move. THis is a sure fire sign of the beancounters neutering Palm's products--again. See the LifeDrive's memory architecture, T5 & TX formfactors, and the Treo 650 & 700w RAM sizes for prior examples. And yes, yes, yes I know that GSM handsets/chipsets use less power than CDMA ones...

Slower CPU. Lower capacity battery. A new memory card format with lower capacities, higher prices and less widespread support? Man you've gotta love Palm's aggressive marketing!

P.S. Also, where are the "zennish" tweaks to the OS? Other than threaded SMS messaging client, has Palm made any major UI modifications?

Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5-->TX-->Treo 700P

RE: Questionable choices?
LiveFaith @ 9/12/2006 10:30:08 PM # Q

I feel your pain man. The Palm IIIe knocked my socks off 7 years ago for a variety of reasons. But we waited and waited and waited to see what the Fab4 Treos would be this year. Sadly, this flagship (and your examples) pretty much lets the air outta the balloon and says to me that Palm will never bring forth superior products.

What a waste. I have the nasty feeling that I'm going to end up in Bill & Steve's excellent adventure soon. But I certainly won't volunteer for double jeapordy by accepting Palm's arcane hardware to boot. It's just plain sad, but if this is the biggest letdown I've got, then life aint bad. :-

Pat Horne

RE: Questionable choices?
freakout @ 9/13/2006 12:25:31 AM # Q
Presumably, the new internal antenna has crammed the inside of this new Treo so much that they can no longer fit the higher-capacity 650/700 battery in there. (as you can see, it's like a peak-hour train in there: This might explain the change in memory cards too, but it doesn't make it any less painful...

Soft-touch paint is a nice touch (pardon the pun). Is it the same stuff as on the Black Tie 650?

I apologise for any and all emoticons that appear in my posts. You may shoot them on sight.
Treo 270 ---> Treo 650

Well, the Treonauts dude is happy...
freakout @ 9/13/2006 3:07:59 AM # Q
...but then, he would be, wouldn't he - he's probably about to make a fortune in miniSD cards.

To answer my own question: yes, it is the same coating as on the Black Tie 650, except a dark navy colour. With black keys. Sexy. :D

Reportedly this Treo is 1mm thinner, 2mm narrower and 24 grams (or 15%) lighter than its 650 and 700-series brethren.

And the miniSD slot is fiddly to open, as predicted.

More at

I apologise for any and all emoticons that appear in my posts. You may shoot them on sight.
Treo 270 ---> Treo 650

RE: Questionable choices?
meeksomebody @ 9/13/2006 4:18:55 AM # Q
So this year:
1. Palm Treo 700w
2. Palm Treo 700p
3. Palm Treo 700wx
4. Palm Treo 750v

Is that the four? I don't really see much of a difference between the 700w and 700wx.

Face it, Palm. Give it a few more years and you're doomed.

RE: Questionable choices?
freakout @ 9/13/2006 5:02:57 AM # Q
^^ Does the 700wx really count? Remember, we have yet to see Nitro.

I apologise for any and all emoticons that appear in my posts. You may shoot them on sight.
Treo 270 ---> Treo 650
RE: Questionable choices?
SeldomVisitor @ 9/13/2006 7:27:49 AM # Q
We'll find out!

Colligan's scripted words during two different earnings calls suggest the four are already out:


but PALM ==could== have another low-cost model in some sort of near-release state that they can intro prior to end of year and make THAT one the fourth.

That is, they could stay mum until it's obvious they can't get that one out, then claim the four right above were The Four all along.

Would make a nice question during the CC coming up in a week, eh?

== "You've twice mentioned the four new TREOs to be released
== this year and what you meant by 'new'. Are the 4 TREOs the..."

RE: Questionable choices?
heavyduty @ 9/13/2006 8:00:47 AM # Q
And so what if they release the Nitro? You think Palm will put Wifi in their low-cost model? Of course they won't, because they haven't understood one danm thing about this market; how anyone can release a new communications device in late '06 with no Wifi is beyond me but proves that Palm has no grasp of reality. And reality is smacking them right in the face in the shape of the E61, E70 and HTC's lineup.

Palm Vx (a classic) -> Palm 505 (*yawn*) -> Dell Axim (slooow...) -> Palm TE (great) -> Qtek 9090 (great idea, lousy platform) -> Nokia 6630 (a toy) -> iMate SP3i (not bad) -> Nokia 9300 (doesn't sync notes!!) -> Treo 650 (awesome... one year ago)
RE: Questionable choices?
hkklife @ 9/13/2006 9:57:55 AM # Q
Does anyone know if there are "embedded" wi-fi drivers on the 750v like there are for Palm's wi-fi SDIO card on the 700w and wx?

Maybe Palm is planning on addressing two of the major shortcomings of the 750v with their own branded aftermarket accessories; a higher capacity "Palm" Seidio-style extended battery and a "Palm" branded wi-fi Mini SDIO card?

Even though the above would be the best case scenario, it's still inexcusable for these things not being standard. The battery actually irks ME more personally but if I were a European user I'd be more aggravated.

The launch of the 750v would have been perfect timing for Vodafone to announce a butchering of their data prices and the introduction of a reasonable priced unlimited data plan...

Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5-->TX-->Treo 700P

RE: Questionable choices?
craigdts @ 9/14/2006 8:34:04 AM # Q
Here's evidence on new devices - low rider

"We are also going to announce another major product for the European market before the end of year, which we hope to take across the continent and hit some really new price points and reach a new consumer market. So we're coming in here really focused."

So it looks like Palm's Low Rider will be sold worldwide

RE: Questionable choices?
freakout @ 9/14/2006 8:42:07 AM # Q
"The [Treo750v] is a great phone too. If you see people in Europe with BlackBerrys, most of them [also] have a phone. Why is that? There's no question that if you carry this product you'll love it as a phone and you'll love it as a data application, and that's how we'll differentiate ourselves."

Hopefully this means they've improved their radio capabilities.

I apologise for any and all emoticons that appear in my posts. You may shoot them on sight.
Treo 270 ---> Treo 650

RE: Questionable choices?
SeldomVisitor @ 9/14/2006 8:42:36 AM # Q
Oh - man - you were SO close!

But you forgot the words tht were JUST before your quote!

They are:

== "...In Europe, what we have is a handheld computing biz. We've
== sold more than 7 million devices of various PDAs in Europe and
== have a great presence relative to that..."

So, other than sheer hope-hope-hope why do you think "product" translates into "phone"?

Again - I think we've seen the 4 new TREOs for this year.

And I think PALM hasn't got a chance of introducing a TREO that's really low-priced that has sufficient features to compete with EXISTING smartphones already on the market. Others think so, too:


Reply to this comment

This is a great move for Palm:

maybepalm @ 9/13/2006 6:47:21 AM # Q
you complaining guys just do not get it.

It is a device for Europe - so it's WM, becouse POS is almost unknown, expecially in cellphones world.

No WiFi? WHO CARES. Is a 3G device - you get 3G speed almost anywere, compered to almost non existent wifi hotspot (which by the way, are not free). Oh, I understand you geeks like to wiretap someones networks to get free internet access.

Samsung CPU is integrated with UMTS radio, so is much more efficient using 3G. That is why it is used.

Battery is less, so the device is slimmer and lighter than 700w - since it is under a GSM/UMTS network it use LESS power than CDMA. That is why op/stdby time are the same as 700w.

You will not buy it becouse you do not like it? Ok, me to, I'll keep my TX - BUT MANY WILL! And those many who will buy it do not even know that POS or WiFi even exists...

RE: This is a great move for Palm:
heavyduty @ 9/13/2006 8:14:18 AM # Q
No WiFi? WHO CARES. Is a 3G device - you get 3G speed almost anywere, compered to almost non existent wifi hotspot (which by the way, are not free). Oh, I understand you geeks like to wiretap someones networks to get free internet access.

Oh, and 3G is free, right??

Pardon my language but that's bull. As a resident in Spain, with a Vodafone contract, let me inform you that Vodafone doesn't have any flat-rate 3G plan in Spain, meaning that if you wish to surf with your new Treo, be prepared to hand away serious cash to Vodafone on top of what you gave them for the Treo.

So let me restate that: bull!!

Palm Vx (a classic) -> Palm 505 (*yawn*) -> Dell Axim (slooow...) -> Palm TE (great) -> Qtek 9090 (great idea, lousy platform) -> Nokia 6630 (a toy) -> iMate SP3i (not bad) -> Nokia 9300 (doesn't sync notes!!) -> Treo 650 (awesome... one year ago)

RE: This is a great move for Palm:
palmato @ 9/13/2006 10:17:52 AM # Q
While I do agree that 3g data transfer charges are still quite steep (end even more when roaming kicks in, but that's another issue), it is also true that wifi is not a viable alternative on this side of the pond.
First of all, free wifi only exists at your own home. Everywhere else you have to pay, usually 5-10US$ per half hour. Vodafone, for instance has such a service in major european airports.

Second the network of wifi hotspots is controlled by a couple of companies (whose names escape me) which resell their services to the carriers. This means no competition and no compelling reason to make the service cheaper and more widely available.

So lack of wifi does not seem to be a big deal in Europe, at least IMHO.

Hey Admin: Why do we have to keep two profiles?

RE: This is a great move for Palm:
heavyduty @ 9/13/2006 10:44:02 AM # Q
So lack of wifi does not seem to be a big deal in Europe, at least IMHO.

I was in Stockholm, Sweden, just a few days ago where it was proposed to, starting from next summer, offer free Wifi in the whole city at bus stops, train stations, etc, as a free service. As someone who travels to Stockholm frequently that kind of service is invaluable; there is no way, no how, I would even begin to consider a non-Wifi communication device in this day and age. Nor will the habitants of Stockholm if the proposition is passed....

Palm dropped the ball on this one. Big time.

(And as I'm writing this, a friend of mine is chatting with me through Msn with her pda while she's in the waiting room at the doctor's, leeching on a Wifi connection; the irony of it...)

Palm Vx (a classic) -> Palm 505 (*yawn*) -> Dell Axim (slooow...) -> Palm TE (great) -> Qtek 9090 (great idea, lousy platform) -> Nokia 6630 (a toy) -> iMate SP3i (not bad) -> Nokia 9300 (doesn't sync notes!!) -> Treo 650 (awesome... one year ago)

RE: This is a great move for Palm:
palmato @ 9/13/2006 11:59:40 AM # Q
I indeed had a good time when I visited Stockholm a couple of years ago, really a nice city. But the key word here is "next year", which may actually mean two, three or never.

I don't dispute the fact that there are may exceptions to general lack of free wifi (leeching doesn't count) but right now that's how the situation is at least in the countries I know.

And BTW, the biggest mistake of Palm is to waste money and time with winmob. That is really unforgivable. :-)

Hey Admin: Why do we have to keep two profiles?

RE: This is a great move for Palm:
richardyates @ 9/13/2006 1:34:05 PM # Q
Norwich in England already has a free wifi network. The point is, even where you pay for wifi in the UK it costs nothing like 3G charges, and don't even get me started on roaming charges

I think Palm are just daft running this we don't want to offend the airtime providers by including wifi line. If that's true, how come Vodafone sell the Nokia E61, Ipaq 6910, HTC TyTn (v1605) and so on?

RE: This is a great move for Palm:
heavyduty @ 9/14/2006 4:01:48 AM # Q
I don't dispute the fact that there are may exceptions to general lack of free wifi (leeching doesn't count) but right now that's how the situation is at least in the countries I know.

My last device with Wifi was the Qtek 9090 three years ago. Even back then it saved me on more than one occasion in Sweden where I unexpectadly had to connect to the web, and there were free spots in many places. I don't expect that the situation has gotten any worse since then nor that it won't get even better.

Of course we can aruge about this until the cows come home (or Palm decides to add Wifi to their devices: whichever comes first....), but the bottom line is that other manufacturers such as Nokia and HTC do sell Wifi equipped phones through carries, so a priori there is no reason Palm shouldn't be able to do so as well.

But at least one good thing will come out of this: I have ordered the HP hw6915 which will arrive in a couple of days, so now I'll also have GPS; I would have skipped GPS if the Treo had Wifi, but to give up both radios..... No way.

Palm Vx (a classic) -> Palm 505 (*yawn*) -> Dell Axim (slooow...) -> Palm TE (great) -> Qtek 9090 (great idea, lousy platform) -> Nokia 6630 (a toy) -> iMate SP3i (not bad) -> Nokia 9300 (doesn't sync notes!!) -> Treo 650 (awesome... one year ago)

RE: This is a great move for Palm:
richardyates @ 9/14/2006 12:42:49 PM # Q
No pun on your screen name intended, but if you're buying the Hw6915, buy the extended battery too - it doesn't make a day on the standard battery

The E61 on its battery seems immortal by comparison with anything I've ever used since black and white screens went out. With wifi and bluetooth on it still lasts 4-5 days

You'll guess I have an expensive addition:-)

RE: This is a great move for Palm:
heavyduty @ 9/15/2006 6:35:29 AM # Q
Thanks for the tip/warning, I'll check out a larger battery.

The E61 seems like a good device but I just don't like S60, too many menus and I hate the fact that the menu options can't be accessed by index numbers (as on WM Smartphone). Also, the last time I checked (i.e. when I used the 6630) it wasn't possible to do a global search for a given text on the device, the way you can do it on a Palm or PPC, and that immediately disqualifies a device in my book. Have they fixed that on the E61?

Palm Vx (a classic) -> Palm 505 (*yawn*) -> Dell Axim (slooow...) -> Palm TE (great) -> Qtek 9090 (great idea, lousy platform) -> Nokia 6630 (a toy) -> iMate SP3i (not bad) -> Nokia 9300 (doesn't sync notes!!) -> Treo 650 (awesome... one year ago)

RE: This is a great move for Palm:
Surur @ 9/15/2006 8:12:55 AM # Q

I have a HP 6915. Great device. great one handed use e.g. to start the gps just press 2 buttons (start >g), start Pocket IE just press start>i etc) The battery life is actually very good (2-3 days easily with light use) as long as dont use GPS. With GPS it wont last more than 3-4 hours (but then you would usually have a car charger in most cases)


They said I only argued for the sake of arguing, but after an hour I convinced them they were wrong...
Hey!! I made associate writer at PDA247. Come see my nattering over there!!

RE: This is a great move for Palm:
SeldomVisitor @ 9/15/2006 8:23:58 AM # Q
I have to wonder about the utility of GPS for someone who does not use their car for work.

When I leave location X for location Y I already know how I'm going to get there before I leave location X. If location Y is "unusual" in my "travels" then I know how to get there maybe a couple different ways.

Let's hear it for Google Maps!

So...uh...where am I going wrong here?

In general (NOT "in specific"!) where is the utility of GPS on a DAY-TO-DAY basis?


(*) Is this unusual? Am I looking at things from a pilot's perspective or something where you plan out a trip BEFORE taking it?

Note - GPS is WONDERFUL while flying (or, I imagine, boating) where there are no hard roads and signs to show you the way. But driving a car?

RE: This is a great move for Palm:
Surur @ 9/15/2006 1:29:02 PM # Q

Its pretty simple. With GPS you only need an address to get anywhere. In USA you have mostly a grid system, but in UK and Europe all the road are mazes.

Its incredibly useful for traveling confidently, and is the hottest gadget in Europe.


They said I only argued for the sake of arguing, but after an hour I convinced them they were wrong...
Hey!! I made associate writer at PDA247. Come see my nattering over there!!

RE: This is a great move for Palm:
richardyates @ 9/17/2006 6:40:51 PM # Q
Well surur, I'm glad for you your battery lasts so long - I wish mine did!

This is actually the 3rd WM5 device I've had - its also the first one I rate. Palm could learn a lot from it - wifi,bluetooth,GSM and GPS. OK no 3g, no HSDPA, but I'll bet the next version will have, and it won't take as long as Palm have between 650 and 750.

Then, in a moment of inspiration, Palm have signed an exclusive deal with Vodafone. Last month I used 60Mb of data on T-Mobile which has an unlimited data plan (actually 2GB) for £7-50 a month - about $13-50USD. On vodafone, the same data would have cost me £141 - about $250USD! That's exactly the reason I haven't pre-ordered a 750v and I'm not the only one.

Last year I took part in a long online survey for Palm. The questions were about various aspects of the Treo, but there were several about the antenna, loads about wifi and not a few about keeping SD memory. Well I suppose 1.5 out of 3 ain't bad (.5 because they'll say mini-sd is compatible with sd, but I'll say not vice versa), but if they are going to do some research, it'd be good to see them listening - I know I'm not the only one who rated wifi very highly in this survey

Looks like Palm will soon be joining that other great PDA pioneer, Psion, in the list of companies who didn't innovate fast enough to keep MS at bay:-((

RE: This is a great move for Palm:
heavyduty @ 9/20/2006 9:00:14 AM # Q
I just read that Vodafone's exclusivity ends from Jan, and that Palm will be able to sell them unlocked freely from that point and on: what are the chances of Palm selling a Wifi equipped 750??

Obviously it's something they wouldn't announce yet as it would kill Vodafone's sales.....

Palm Vx (a classic) -> Palm 505 (*yawn*) -> Dell Axim (slooow...) -> Palm TE (great) -> Qtek 9090 (great idea, lousy platform) -> Nokia 6630 (a toy) -> iMate SP3i (not bad) -> Nokia 9300 (doesn't sync notes!!) -> Treo 650 (awesome... one year ago)

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Gekko @ 9/13/2006 8:53:18 AM # Q

Is there a 750p coming or is FrankenGarnet now doomed?

RE: 750p
craigdts @ 9/13/2006 10:47:31 AM # Q
I'm wondering if now we are going to see a new numbering system for the treos

700, 800, 900 for CDMA

750, 850, 950 for GSM

I think that it is safe to say there will be no 750p (GSM because of Garnet limitations), however there will be the 680p - lowrider for GSM.

I think the next GSM 3G treo will be on a new Palm OS (not access, not Garnet). I don't see palm putting any more R&D efforts into Garnet to make it compatible with future high end phones. They are using their hoard of cash to create a new OS based on linux. A rumor on 1src say Palm highered over 60 new developers (for linux presumeably). Palm has a few options: drop new Palm os and focus on getting lean and mean to pump out WM devices with some customization (not too bad of an idea), Go WM and Symbian (nothing points toward this), Go WM for business (unfortunately I think that even consumers are going to turn to their WM devices becuase they are so nice) AND produce a new Palm OS for consumer devices. This last option appears to be what is happening.

It will add value to Palm, especially if they are up for sale.

The major problem with a dual OS strategy: higher R&D costs. This will work IF the WM version gets business customers (a new area for palm) and the Palm version gets consumers.

I'm thinking a better strategy for Palm will be to go - high end/business - WM and Low end - Palm OS. It looks like the prosumer market will move to WM in the future. So that will leave the Palm OS to clean up the consumer market.

It appears that Palm is going to stick with the Dual OS strategy. Is there any previous example of a company doing this? In the phone space its more common, but in the computer space I don't think its been done. Palm is modeling itself after a mobile phone manufacturer.

Frankie G Goes to Hollywood?
hkklife @ 9/13/2006 11:16:52 AM # Q
I think the GSM "Nitro" 680p is the final POS device we'll see.

However, FrankenGarnet is still suitable for CDMA EVDO applications, as the 700P shows. If/when Palm fixes the crippling BT & NVFS bugs in the 700P they'll have a decently performing unit. I have no issues with the EVDO stack under OS5 when doing DUN on my laptop.

So if Palm gets the 700P in order with a firmware update it wouldn't be a big deal to release a 750P in the 750v's shell. Same guts, same innards as the 700p, with maybe an improved camera or higher capacity batter to make it seem fresh. Voila! That lets Palm milk Verizon & Sprint for another 6-9 months while they do whatever it is they are planning (home brewed OS, ALP, or WinMob exclusively).

I cannot speak for Sprint but both Palm and Verizon LOVE to release "new" models that are just mildly refreshed versions of last year's predecessor. Just look at how Verizon has done with the v60i, v60c, v60p, v60s and V710, E815, A840.
Same with Palm and the T|E line or 700w to 700wx.

I'll wager that most of the main criticisms leveled at the 700P by average users (not PIC/TC types) have to do with the brick-like formfactor, the hideous external antenna and possibly the BT bugs. All of those are fixable.

Through the grapevine I've heard that 700p Verizon sales didn't start off with a bang like the 700w did but there have been many fewer returns and it's been a very steady, reliable seller.

SO...the smart money is on just a GSM Lowrider type device but I would not entirely rule out a CDMA 750p waiting in the wings.

Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5-->TX-->Treo 700P

RE: 750p
d_aveFromCA @ 9/13/2006 11:30:48 AM # Q
I'm still holding my breath for them to release a 700 POS model on GSM. Been waiting since Feb.
RE: 750p
cervezas @ 9/13/2006 5:07:32 PM # Q
craigdts wrote:
A rumor on 1src say Palm highered over 60 new developers

Not exactly a rumor. Palm reported in their July 10k that R&D expenditures had been increased by 51% since last year "reflecting 130 additional employees hired to support our development of smartphone products."

That doesn't mean they were all Linux developers, but there's plenty of other evidence to support that idea.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing

RE: 750p
Gekko @ 9/13/2006 6:56:27 PM # Q

They hired them to help develop and add value to the Palm version of WINMOB.

RE: 750p
hkklife @ 9/13/2006 9:23:28 PM # Q
To all of the WinMob mavens out there;

How soon do you figure it'll be before Palm makes so many "customizations" and "improvements" to WinMob that stuff starts getting broken ala FrankenGarnet 5.0 to 5.2 to 5.4.5 to 5.4.9?

So, my question is simply WHAT are all of these developers at Palm doing? It's not patching the LifeDrive, the TX2 or the 700P. It doesn't seem to be working on any new PDAs. I doubt making a handful of WinMob "customizations" can take that much work.

Maybe Ryan can run a front page poll to find out what percentage of the teeming masses think Palm's crafting their own home-grown OS...

Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5-->TX-->Treo 700P

RE: 750p
freakout @ 9/14/2006 8:04:32 AM # Q
They've got to be working on a new OS. What else would they need so many developers for?
RE: 750p
SeldomVisitor @ 9/14/2006 8:47:12 AM # Q
Fixing PalmSource's broken device drivers?

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Why we can't get the best phone possible

vip_m @ 9/13/2006 1:48:31 PM # Q
Here's a reason why we can't get the best phone possible:

WALTER S. MOSSBERG ( "At last month's D: All Things Digital technology conference, which I co-produce for The Wall Street Journal, Apple CEO Steve Jobs said he was wary of producing an Apple cellphone because, instead of selling it directly to the public, he would have to offer it through what he called the "four orifices" -- the four big U.S. cellphone carriers."

"I call these cellphone companies the new Soviet ministries, because they are reminiscent of the Communist bureaucracies in Russia that stood athwart the free market for decades. Like the real Soviet ministries, these technology middlemen too often believe they can decide better than the market what goods consumers need."

"However, I believe that, in the name of valid business goals, the U.S. carriers are exercising far too much control over the flow of new technologies into users' hands. In an ideal world, any tech company with a new cellphone, or with software to run on cellphones, should be able to sell it directly to users. These customers would then separately buy plans from the cellphone companies allowing those devices to work on the networks.

But that isn't how it works. In most cases, manufacturers must get the network operators' approval to sell hardware that runs on their networks, and carriers don't allow downloading of software onto phones unless they supply it themselves. I once saw a sign at the offices of a big cellphone carrier that said, "It isn't a phone until 'Harry' says it's a phone." But why should it be up to Harry (a real carrier employee whose name I have changed)? Why shouldn't the market decide whether a device is a good phone?

Verizon Wireless didn't agree to offer its customers the innovative Treo smart phone until thousands of its customers signed an online petition demanding it do so. I'm not saying there was a cause and effect, but clearly some Verizon customers wanted a Treo that worked on the Verizon network and couldn't buy one even though the Treo's maker was eager to supply a Verizon model.

When AT&T Wireless brought out the first U.S. cellphone using Microsoft's smart phone software, it hobbled the phone's user interface so that an icon for its online store would always be visible. And several carriers have crippled phones' Bluetooth wireless functionality so they can't be used as laptop modems or to synchronize with a PC.

More recently, unidentified cellphone carriers are reported to have balked at allowing customers to buy a new phone, jointly designed by Motorola and Apple Computer, that would let users synchronize and play back music from Apple's iTunes computer program. One possible reason: They want to sell music themselves."

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Cingular introed 3125 today

SeldomVisitor @ 9/13/2006 3:46:00 PM # Q
About $150, I think.

RE: Cingular introed 3125 today
fierywater @ 9/19/2006 9:58:39 AM # Q
Thank God for Palm's reality distortion field.

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Windows vs Palm

havarosk @ 9/15/2006 12:08:06 PM # Q
I simply hate the Windows strategy to Palm. They have the most intuitive, effective and best established OS in the PDA-world, and keep introducing their first-line products with the idiotic Windows OS.
I'll give you one simple reason why not to even consider bying a Windows OS device: the screen resolution. Treos with 240x240 screens can't compare to the 320x320 Palm Treos.
Why? WHY???

RE: Windows vs Palm
fierywater @ 9/18/2006 2:35:12 PM # Q
I beg to differ.

Is the Palm OS more intuitive? Maybe. For the sake of argument, I'll grant that one.

Effective? Hell no. One, it can't handle UMTS (or HSPDA, for that matter), rendering it impossible to sell in the European market on all but the most low-end phones. Two, it has severe functionality issues (crippling bugs, broken device drivers, etc.). OS5 is ancient and barely capable of handling the demands of a modern smartphone.

"Best-established"? Maybe a few years ago. WM and Symbian are both kicking Palm's ass at the moment. The majority of Palm OS software was made for 68k devices, with developer support waning by the day. Look at Fitaly, for example.

As far as the 240x240 versus 320x320 argument goes, it's Palm's choice to use 240x240. Nothing's stopping them from actually innovating and using a higher resolution screen (/cough VGA). Admittedly, 240x240 isn't ideal, but given the other pros of using WM, it's worth the trade-off to Palm.

RE: Windows vs Palm
Foo Fighter @ 9/18/2006 3:33:29 PM # Q
>> "effective and best established OS in the PDA-world"

Unfortunately those days are long gone. Today's PalmOS (Garnet) is a has-been among mobile platforms and is no longer even considered a legitimate competitive player in some markets (like Europe).

As to your "most effective" OS assertion, I think both carriers and handset vendors would beg to differ, as Garnet's network stack doesn't even support UMTS/HSDPA 3G technologies which now makes the OS all but useless as a smartphone platform on GSM networks, going forward. Which is most likely the reason behind "Nitro" or "Lowrider", a low-cost PalmOS-based Treo. If Garnet can't support 3G networks, then any hardware based upon it must be relegated to the bargain bin. Whether carriers choose to adopt the handsets may be the bigger issue.

Aside from a simple interface, there really is very little PalmOS offers anymore. Microsoft has finally succeeded in making Windows Mobile "good enough" for mass adoption as a smartphone platform. And Microsoft recently released Windows CE 6.0 (the foundation Windows Mobile is built upon) to manufacturers. So before long we'll being seeing devices built around that appearing on handsets.

Elitist Snob,

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How does Palm win the consumer market?

craigdts @ 9/19/2006 10:40:43 PM # Q
I've been doing some thinking about what palm needs to do win the consumer market for smartphones.

One approach is to go after PIMs. Based upon experience with PDAs, the martket is limited for PIM apps because not everyone wants to be organized. In fact, probably many people end up not using those functions because they just do not have a compelling enough reason to be organized. Thus, palm never reached beyond the prosumer market. Other manufacturers have added PIMs to their phones, no one uses them. Again there is just not enough compelling reason to use them. Palm has solved the problem of input and complexity in their treo line though. But I still think a majority of people (beyond current people who own PDAs or Smartphones) will not use the PIMs because they don't have a need to be organized.

Another approach is email. I think it is a mistake to pursue this as the killer app for the mass market. Email on smartphones is not that efficient. I have a treo and I chose not to use the email on it and reserve that task for my computer between work and home. Why? Because often I am composing email in response to prospective clients and I need to cut and paste from previous email and write a significant amount. I don't think smartphones are the best way to reply to email. They are useful for reading email, but replies are typically more involved. Then again, my wife uses her treo for email so maybe this is a major selling point.

Mobile Internet? I think this is a plus, for maps, dinner plans, etc. But its still easier and better to do it on a full PC. The internet/web has more development to be done to be adapted to mobile devices.

I think the best way to reach the mass market is to make the treo essentially an SMS, text messaging device. This is already popular and nothing does it better, faster and more easily than the treo. A treo is ideal for this task. Typically text messages are short and not grammatically correct. A treo performs this task well.

A treo that makes calls, is lightweight, sleek, sexy and does SMS can make the traditional handset a thing of the past. If palm produces a low end treo focused on voice and text messaging they will do well. This will bring in new users incrementallly. They will not jump from a dumb phone to a highend treo - the learning curve will be too high. Remember we are not dealing with the PDA crowd, but with a much larger diverse market. However, once users become accustomed to their low end treo they may see the benefits of a high end treo and upgrade in a few years.

Palm claims to not be competing with Nokia, Motorola, etc. but thats just for show. If smartphones are a growing segment - then they are competing with them. If smartphones (the sms device i described) are growing then palm will become a larger and larger part of the market - eating into Nokia and Motorola's market share for dumb phones.

Hopefully palm will take advantage of their treo design to the fullest. There are many people who remain with Palm OS simply becuase of its ability to do threaded SMS. Palm OS garnet can still do this task well and cheaply. Hopefully palm has the forsight to take advantage of this.

What do you guys think?

RE: How does Palm win the consumer market?
Surur @ 9/20/2006 9:01:36 AM # Q

Isnt that called the SideKick?

Palm will find competition wherever they go.


They said I only argued for the sake of arguing, but after an hour I convinced them they were wrong...
Hey!! I made associate writer at PDA247. Come see my nattering over there!!

RE: How does Palm win the consumer market?
Gekko @ 9/20/2006 10:42:41 AM # Q

they can win the consumer through best in class audio and video capabilities converged with a phone. there's still time but it's running out.

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don't dismiss this right away

rudolph @ 9/22/2006 3:26:07 AM # Q
Those of you that think 700wx (and 750v since it uses the same cpu) isn't up to par with other devices in terms of speed, should really go out and play with the device. I owned a PPC-6700 for about a month. I had 30 days with sprint to make sure I liked it. Although it's a nice unit feature wise, it's performance is really poor. I stuck with it for nearly all my 30 days because I thought that's just how WM5 really was... until I met the 700wx.

If you think other Pocket PCs are faster because they have a faster mhz cpu, or benchmark faster, think again. Someone mentioned the 700wx (and the other 700 series models) don't fair well in "real world performance." For that I have to ask... what is the "real world performance" metric that you're using? If it's the benchmarks, then ok, it doesn't fair as well. Once you try it though, i tell you.. it seems 2x as fast as the other units i've used. When I'd click the start menu on the 6700 which had a 400-some mhz cpu, i had to wait a few seconds for it to pop up. On the 700wx? Almost 97% of the time it pops up instantly. I have no idea what palm did, but it works, and it works well. I could not recommend the 6700 to anyone unless you reeeealy need wifi. Otherwise, stick with the 700wx. Maybe it's not speed that it has -- I haven't tried comparing a video playback benchmark. In terms of responsiveness though, it beats out any other WM5 device I've used.

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Soft touch

e_tellurian @ 10/6/2006 12:20:15 PM # Q
Buttons with a soft touch the shell would be nice in metal. Cost is an issue which is why some folks are working so hard to offer more choices so we can disperse the cost of innovation with more responsible taxable revenue.

Sad when choices are limited by capital. Is it good to offer various choices so consumers are not limited to price issues? If stuff is too low cost who will purchase land when our income is too low to afford a home, yet substantial enough to have low cost cloths, shoes. Necessities without a home seems ... well strange.

i sure appreciate those people that are free to point these things out so we can have a balance. If we focus on quality then cost will be what it is. It seems consumers are spending time looking at brand and quality of workmanship.



Completing the e-com circle with a people driven we-com solution
WiFi & BT? No strings attached

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Data charge data finally revealed

SeldomVisitor @ 10/10/2006 5:00:41 PM # Q
TreoCentral has a review of the Vodafone 750 and, finally, on page 5 has a subsection describing the costs of data:

== "...However the data is a huge gotcha with Vodafone. With a
== typical business plan, the data costs about ₤ 1 ($1.85 US) per
== megabyte. That is a mere five web pages. Forget about
== downloading or attaching office documents attachments from
== your e-mail..."
== "...if you jump over to a personal is then going
== to run ₤2 ($3.71 US) a megabyte..."
== "...The simple reality is I have a crippled device.
== Downloading any sort of rich content is prohibitive. I simply
== retrieve a few kilobytes of each e-mail and don’t dare use the
== web. Of course I’ve already turned off all graphics should I
== end up in Internet Explorer..."
== "...The Treo 750v is positioned almost exclusively for
== business users. Well-heeled users whose company is picking up
== the bill should not have a problem unless the accountants
== decide to take a close look at their data charges. However, I
== imagine that for the phone to be successful, especially beyond
== business, data pricing will have to change dramatically. If
== Vodafone doesn’t make the change, one of their competitors
== surely will..."


RE: Data charge data finally revealed
Ryan @ 10/10/2006 5:33:39 PM # Q
Wow, crippled device indeed.
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