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Comments on: Analyst Says Foleo Fails to Address Mobile User Needs

Gartner's PDA/Smartphone sector analyst Todd Kort has posted a dismal assessment of the Palm Foleo. Kort says the Foleo fails to adequately address mobile user needs, and believes it offers too little functionality to justify the burden of carrying around another device.

In an era in which increasing functionality is converging into ever-smaller devices, Palm has decided to buck the trend. The Foleo is too large for many smartphone users to consider carrying around as a limited-function accessory that requires a separate carrying case. Gartner believes that this unwieldiness will severely limit Foleo adoption by smartphone users, who place a premium on "pocketability" and attractive design.
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Jeff said..

thefez @ 6/7/2007 1:05:23 PM # Q
... the PDA market is mature. No new improvement from us.

Very sad. In fact someone else is improving the PDA market.
Have a look at the specs of this (could-have-been-Palm) little gem:

O2 Xda Flame - PDA Phone
The 02 Xda Flame is powered by an Intel Xscale PXA 270 520MHz and an NVIDIA GoForce 5500 graphics card.
With gigantic 3.6″ 640×480 resolution TOUCH screen,
has a better LCD screen than iPhone which only features a 3.5 in, 320×480 resolution screen.
This PDA phone also comes integrated 2GB internal storage, 64MB Flash ROM, 128MB RAM, WiFi support and 3G network support.

Available in July, in Europe and Asia.

It could have been Palm (call it T!X whatever or Treo10000).
Hey, Jeff, Ed, Palm investors!
Looks someone is still believing in something usable ALSO as a PDA (and it has phone too!).
Damn! Why not PALM????


The rest is here on Handcellphone.com: http://www.handcellphone.com/archives/o2-xda-flame-pda-phone-that-is-powered-by-nvidia-graphics-card-announced

Sad, sad Palm aficionado.

RE: Jeff said..
sgiga @ 6/7/2007 4:06:39 PM # Q
And HTC have a large bunch HTCs http://www.htc.com

Anyway, it makes me wonder. My T3 is now 3 years old, and still has more processor power and larger screen than any of the HTC products, it even has more processor power than the Foleo and Treo as well.

I guess that a T3 with an internal GSM radio would be nice, but the thing is that it would make a good PDA, but a lousy phone. Several people i know with a HTC touch screen phone get so tired of the touch screen for phoning and SMS that they purchase another normal phone and use the HTC just as a PDA (the same will happen to the iPhone). With a good link between the PDA and the phone, the phone in the PDA really is redundant, there is no way around that fact, and the solution is the Treo. But the Treo (and any other smart phone for that matter) is not an optimal solution to the problem because the screen size will be much smaller than the PDA, and unit is just too bulky. It is more of a hack to get the PDA and the phone into one single unit than a good solution.

What I really would like is a T3 or TX kind of device with a slim good looking phone that slides into a slot in the PDA. That way I would have one unit, yet have all the benefits of the PDA and the phone. The phone don't even need to have a display (other than a minimalistic one), it could be just a numpad and speakers. They should work perfectly on their own and together. They should be connected with BT when separated, so the numpad on the phone unit could work on the PDA unit.

The same principle could wery well be used on the Foleo as well, and why it isn't already is rather strange, since it is the obvious next step.

RE: Jeff said..
adamsmark @ 6/7/2007 5:41:05 PM # Q
Regarding the T3, it is dismaying that a discontinued product remains the best PDA Palm has produced. The Foleo is intriguing, but perhaps not at $500. Again, Palm would have a marketing coup if the product were $299 -- but they've overpriced an otherwise decent product.

"I believe in the atomic bomb."

Blogging at http://agabus.com">Agabus.com.

Palm V > Vx > Clie Peg T615C > T3 > Clie TH55 > T3 > Treo 650 > Treo 700p & T3!

RE: Jeff said..
sungod @ 6/7/2007 6:21:50 PM # Q
On the plus side Jeff hinted at the treo line now deversifying.
I have read of both full screen devices and smaller non Qwerty moddles being mentioned.
How cool would a candybar/flipphone Treo be paired with a PLinux T|X2 auto syncing on the fly.

How good are cargo pants, they're a gadget lovers best friend.
RE: Jeff said..
SeldomVisitor @ 6/7/2007 6:32:13 PM # Q
> ...How cool would a candybar/flipphone Treo be paired with a PLinux T|X2
> auto syncing on the fly.

Damn! What a GREAT idea!

The original thought:

-- http://discussion.treocentral.com/showthread.php?t=33796

and its update a year later:

-- http://discussion.treocentral.com/showpost.php?p=338530&postcount=9

Giggle.

RE: Jeff said..
thefez @ 6/7/2007 6:48:48 PM # Q
I agree, for my personal taste two separate devices doing their own job is better than a converged one.
My trusty T3 is all I need for keeping organised and my bluetooth phone is the best (for my needs - no flames, please ;-) in keeping me in touch with people, taking fairly good pictures, and entertaining with loads of music and news with FM radio.
Annyoing is when I have to update contacts onto the T3 (it is the "reference") and then propagate them to the phone. A "too much" converged device would not need this step (well, the phone is converged enough to answer three needs fairly well in one single package).
It would really help if the contacts details were correctly matching between the Palm and the phone (which doesn't always happen). But here comes again the foolish will of every Company to introduce "proprietary" features into standard formats...

Maybe the Foleo will fill a niche now and will make many more people feel the need, and pleasure, of writing over a real keyboard while looking at a usable screen. I hope so. Apparently many people do work and connect wirelessly while traveling, so it could be the bridge between an undersized PDA and an oversized Laptop.

Probably what is most needed now, as we are more and more oppressed by techno-gadgets which cannot cooperate well one with another, is a true improvement of the often misused "user experience" concept.
The Foleo appeal will greatly benefit if it will prove to be a real extension of the Treo (and, why not, the TX) line.
It will also be the first to show the long awaited Palm-on-Linux world...

But please, please, please Jeff: look at how many different form factors are in the cellphone world.
Go on with the Treo, go ahead with the Foleo (even invent a new stripped-down Treo without screen and keyboard to be the phone companion of the Foleo),
BUT PLEASE LOOK ALSO towards people (who do not need and will not buy a Treo) still waiting for an updated heir of the T3.
Look at HTC, drop the phone, keep the good (leave the mic and vibra in - please!).
Make a candybar version TX-like, make a clamshell version with a keyboard (keep the graffiti, thanks!).
And youll'have made many, many people happy. Otherwise you will potentially make many people go Apple. Or wathever else. But probably Apple has the ability to make the iPhone usable also as a PDA and sync seamlessly with the Macs; then who needs a Foleo?

Jeff, please, do not throw away your first business and the many people who still love and believe in it.

RE: Jeff said..
mikecane @ 6/8/2007 7:38:13 AM # Q
Damn you T3 owners! My LifeFlash still has lag -- I've had it go up to FIFTEEN SECONDS at times between apps! I still recall how breathtakingly wicked fast that T3 was every time I fondled it. All of you put in a fat battery? What kind of battery life do you get with that?

RE: Jeff said..
rpa @ 6/8/2007 10:00:12 AM # Q
You guys/gals keep praising the T3....makes me wish I had bought one instead of staying with my Vx for so many years. I don't see the PDA market as 'dead', only in decline due to a lack of innovative products. The Palm O/S has WM beaten handsdown in my view. Plus we don't all need/want one converged device. I use a T|2 with a cheap flip phone and a notebook PC and this combo suits me fine. Lost my last phone in a Shanghai taxi....no major loss as I bought an el cheapo Moto flip phone locally that works fine (once I was able to deactivate the Chinese opera ring tones).

My point is there are many solutions possible and Palm should cater for a diverse market and not put all their eggs in one basket (e.g. the current Treo bricks). Let's have a new version of the T|X, a new flip phone version like the old Treo 270, a full screen converged device, Treos w/o software glitches and so on and let consumers have CHOICE. One size does not fit all.

rpa

RE: Jeff said..
theseus @ 6/8/2007 11:57:13 AM # Q
mikecane, I've got a T3 and have a PTG sled "permanently" attached. (I bought multiple ones and when one dies I swap it out for another that I've had charging.) With the PTG sled, I get virtually a full day and a half of usage (which equates to roughly 6 hrs of full [constant] use -- with brightness @ 60% and the BT radio always on; about 20% of the time is spent with the slider open). I make it a habit of swapping out the PTG sled in the morning before leaving for work and haven't had any problems. Yes, keeping the sled on makes it heavier (and case-less), but I don't have battery problems! ;) (I use BoxWave's screen protectors and carry it in a PDA pouch -- that completes my Bat-belt). ;)

-e

RE: Jeff said..
gtbaum @ 6/8/2007 4:43:40 PM # Q
Mikecane: What app is taking 15 seconds to load on your LF? I've had my LD for a week or so now, and I'm enjoying it. The worst delay I've experienced has been an occasional 2 seconds for pocket tunes.


RE: Jeff said..
twrock @ 6/8/2007 8:23:27 PM # Q
If you are talking about a PTunes load delay, the TX does the same thing. I don't think that is an LD exclusive issue.


Thinking about Vista? Think again: http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/pubs/vista_cost.txt
Want an alternative? Try this: http://www.ubuntu.com/ or http://www.mepis.org/
RE: Jeff said..
sungod @ 6/8/2007 9:13:11 PM # Q
Seldom
I never said it was an original idea.
I just asked, how cool would it be?
And it's finaly in reach.

How good are cargo pants, they're a gadget lovers best friend.
RE: Jeff said..
mikecane @ 8/27/2007 3:11:15 PM # Q
>>>Mikecane: What app is taking 15 seconds to load on your LF? I've had my LD for a week or so now, and I'm enjoying it. The worst delay I've experienced has been an occasional 2 seconds for pocket tunes.

It's the bloody *built-in apps*! It's getting to the point where I am now going mad because it's now taking *five seconds* to switch between built-in apps, depending on the apps I'm using.

Five seconds doesn't sound like a lot until you experience it over and over and over again. For a one-second look up (Let me check this quickly...) *five* seconds of overhead is not fun.

Reply to this comment

No no no! Kort's got it ALL WRONG!

SeldomVisitor @ 6/7/2007 1:12:20 PM # Q
Jeez-o-Pete! Doesn't that guy WATCH the Hawkins of the world as they discuss The Next Great Thang!?

Sheesh.

Hakwins UNAMBIGUOUSLY said there's a NEXT Next Great Thang that he's not gonna tell us about right now!

I tell ya - some of these analysts...

RE: No no no! Kort's got it ALL WRONG!
PacManFoo @ 6/7/2007 5:58:22 PM # Q
The 20 people that plan to buy this are going to be terribly disappointed by this report. O.K. So I'm estimating high on how many will sell.

PDA's Past and Present:
Palm - IIIxe, Vx, M500, M505, Tungsten T, TX
Handspring - Edge, Platinum, Deluxe
Sony - SJ22
Apple - MP110, MP2000, MP2100
Reply to this comment

ANALyst ramblings

vorlon @ 6/7/2007 2:31:10 PM # Q
Convergence is the keyword. That's why nobody wants a separate digital camera, video camera, GPS, iPod, DSLite or PSP.

NOT!

RE: ANALyst ramblings
sremick @ 6/7/2007 2:41:25 PM # Q
Just because 2 devices CAN be converged, doesn't mean they SHOULD.

And if you ONLY sell/market/develop converged devices, and not standalone, there is no legitimacy to pointing to sales of converged items as evidence that that's what people want/prefer.

If the only toilet paper I could get had George Bush love sonnets written on it, yeah I'd buy it... doesn't mean I'm a connoisseur of Bush love sonnets though.



http://www.vtbsd.net/

RE: ANALyst ramblings
linds @ 6/7/2007 10:28:08 PM # Q
Something interesting for those who are arguing that the pda market is dead. Have any of you tried to purchse an old Palm device recently on Ebay. I am looking for a Palm Tungsten C right now and the prices for anything in almost new condtion is still up at close to $200 dollars. I was bidding on a used one with minor cosmetic scratches and a few scratches on the screen and probably a poor battery although they didn't say for sure but it went for over $100 dollars. In my opinion this still points to there being a market for primarily PDA devices.

RE: ANALyst ramblings
Rhauer @ 6/7/2007 11:14:37 PM # Q
Why can't Palm converage a PDA with an 80gig state of the art media player. Maybe slide out keyboard. Why is that not done. Add 5 mexp camera. Please.

RE: ANALyst ramblings
mikecane @ 6/8/2007 7:40:48 AM # Q
I've watched Palm PDA prices on ebay recently. Even sometimes a DEAD LifeDrive will pop over $100 even close to $200. T3s have a good resale price too (damnmit!). T2s are generally below $100.

Reply to this comment

Fight the power - get more airtime...

pkuhns @ 6/7/2007 2:48:18 PM # Q
Let's see: post an analysis that agrees with the crowd (thereby drowning in multiple voices) or fight the crowd and get lots of airtime. If your paycheck comes from "thinking outside the box" then you're going to release an opposing report. All I can say about his arguments are YAWN...


A Linux subnotebook with WiFi has 100 gazillion hacking opportunities. This machine will not die a quiet death and I am positive the community will find excellent ways to leverage this device...

NX70 addict...

RE: Fight the power - get more airtime...
SeldomVisitor @ 6/7/2007 2:59:11 PM # Q
You haven't seen that Asustek laptop yet?

RE: Fight the power - get more airtime...
Ronin @ 6/7/2007 4:15:04 PM # Q
Personally, I look at the Foleo as, essentially, a portable port replicator for your smartphone. In that light, I definitely see utility in such a device.

As it stands now, when I am away from a PC, I could see myself using this for e-mail and particularly to draft letters/reports and read spreadsheets. I hate reading Excel docs on the Treo screen because it is too small and mostly I just wait until I get back to a PC. I have a pretty good notebook too but it is to big to carry with me amongst the other documents I am usually carrying and its primary use is as a roaming PC at home.

I am open to the possibilities of this device and will reserve judgment until it is in the 'wild'. After years of Palm OS use, I know that for Palm it is not all about specs and the latest and greatest features but about the user experience. And despite all the criticism of Palm over the years, the devices continue to be about getting the job done in the most straightforward way. If this works as advertised then I think, the experience of typing a report on the Foleo, closing the screen and having the document present on my Treo as it just was on the 10" screen would be pretty cool and I know of no device that can do that.

As a final comment, I do think the portable keyboard solution is a different animal because you are still dealing with the small screen.

In the Spirit of Umoja,
Ronin

RE: Fight the power - get more airtime...
mikecane @ 6/8/2007 7:42:01 AM # Q
>>>A Linux subnotebook with WiFi has 100 gazillion hacking opportunities. This machine will not die a quiet death and I am positive the community will find excellent ways to leverage this device...

Baloney. The same drooling was done over the Nokia ANti-Net Tabs. End of story.

"Oooh, look! I have Linux in my pocket!"

BFD! What's that mean for the average Joe? Zip.

Reply to this comment

Nanobook

makru @ 6/7/2007 5:15:07 PM # Q
Not sure if this has come up in other discussions, but this is an interesting competitor - same price, a little smaller, but running Windows.

http://blog.wired.com/gadgets/2007/06/nanobook.html

RE: Nanobook
VampireLestat @ 6/7/2007 6:41:48 PM # Q
That nanobook makes the Foleo look plain retarded.
I mean LOOK at the difference. wow

RE: Nanobook
t3h @ 6/7/2007 8:38:03 PM # Q
Hmmm, considering that the Nanobook is somewhat a standard PC, it could probably run Linux...

Palm TX + 1GB SD + Motorola v3x = awesomeness
Asustek Link
hoodoo @ 6/7/2007 9:42:06 PM # Q
http://www.pcworld.com/article/id,132622-page,1/article.html

$199!! I repeat, $199!!

"Prices are going to start at $199, rising based on the amount of flash memory that comes with the machine instead of a hard disk. Currently, Asustek plans to sell models with 4GB, 8GB, and 16GB of flash, but that may change between now and when the first Eee PCs go on sale.

Measuring 9 inches wide by 6.6 inches deep, the Eee PC 701 is about 1.5 inches thick with the screen closed and weighs just 31 ounces. Other specifications include a 7-inch monitor, a 300,000-pixel camera, 512MB of DDR2 memory, and Wi-Fi. Next year, Asustek plans to introduce a second Eee PC model, the 1001, which will have a 10-inch screen."

RE: Nanobook
rcartwright @ 6/8/2007 12:38:33 AM # Q
Has anyone noticed that this runs a Linux distro with no clear path to sync with Windows documents and data? Also, I suspect the $199.00 price is with the 4 gig flash and the battery life is 3 hours. Recall Hawkins said 5 hours with wifi on. Not sure execs are going to flock to this.

"Many men stumble across the truth, but most manage to pick themselves up
and continue as if nothing had happened."
- Winston Churchill
RE: Nanobook
ChiA @ 6/8/2007 1:37:54 AM # Q
Has anyone noticed that this runs a Linux distro with no clear path to sync with Windows documents and data?

The nanobook comes with OpenOffice, a fully featured Office app that can open far more document formats (including Microsoft Office) than the current Docs to Go on the Palm - RTF anyone?

Even if the nanobook didn't come with OpenOffice it's free and usually quite easy to download then install it on the popular Linux distros.

If you really need Windows I guess one could try installing XP Professional ($299) then OpenOffice for Windows($0) onto the nanobook and it'll still be two dollars cheaper than the Foleo's special offer price! It's been suggested the nanobook has an Intel mobile x86 chip whilst the Foleo doesn't have x86 so Windows is totally out of the question for the Foleo...

I suspect the $199.00 price is with the 4 gig flash

Reading the article the nanobook also comes with 512MB DDR memory.
So the nanobook comes with twice the RAM and sixteen times the storage capacity but at less than half the price of the Foleo...
RE: Nanobook
twrock @ 6/8/2007 3:19:54 AM # Q
The Nanobook and the ASUS Eee are quite cool. It's great to see companies all trying to find the "magic combo" in ultra-portable devices. That should help keep the prices down. I've looked at a few other cool devices as well.

But of course there are pro's and con's with every one of them. The Nanobook and the Eee probably would not make my short list if for no other reason than I don't believe either can possibly have a true full-sized keyboard in the form factor as advertised. I just can't deal with undersized keyboards. And as long as I'm demanding a full sized keyboard, I might as well ask for the screen size to match. So I suppose that is exactly how Hawkins made his decisions as to the Foleo form factor.

All other specs aside, I'd choose the Foleo form factor over these other two. But of course that's not the only factor to include in a final decision. So in the end, I wouldn't pick the Foleo either.

But the future looks brighter for any of us who want a cheap, simple, ultra portable computer. With everyone trying, someone's going to get it right.


Thinking about Vista? Think again: http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/pubs/vista_cost.txt
Want an alternative? Try this: http://www.ubuntu.com/ or http://www.mepis.org/

RE: Nanobook
rcartwright @ 6/8/2007 11:36:17 AM # Q
With respect to Chia, your points are valid, but in the business setting you are not seeing Open Office out there. Also, as pointed out elsewhere the keyboard is NOT standard size. Look at the pad on it, its about the size of a thumb. I do not really mean to dis the Nanobook and the price feature set is something Palm should be looking at. That said, I do not think the two products will be traveling in the same circles. I would be interested to see if it actually ever makes it over the lake, the company press to the contrary. A lot of "gee whiz" tech never gets out of Asia.

"Many men stumble across the truth, but most manage to pick themselves up
and continue as if nothing had happened."
- Winston Churchill
RE: Nanobook
ChiA @ 6/8/2007 12:38:05 PM # Q
With respect to Chia, your points are valid, but in the business setting you are not seeing Open Office out there

With respect to yourself, here's one notable figure who may disagree with you and knows more about the computer industry than either of us:

http://preview.tinyurl.com/yqya6w
Yes, he has OpenOffice 2.2 installed on his home laptop.

I take on board your point about the limitations of the nanobook.
However, the key thing to consider is that manufacturers of the eee-Laptop, nanobook etc have far more experience in this field than Palm does. It's easier for them to innovate and improve on their offerings than Palm especially when you consider Palm's poor track record on smartphone innovation in recent years.

It would have been a better use of resources if Palm had simply concentrated its limited resources purely on improving its smartphones and bringing them up to standard with competing products.

I've recently held a Samsung i600 in the Orange shop and was truly amazed a device which was as slim as the old Vx/m500 yet:

- with QWERTY keyboard
- 3G with 1.3 megapixel camera AND VGA camera for video calls.
- wifi (lacking in the US version - the i607)
- reasonable battery life

This is a device which available now and only helps to make the Treos look so very dated.

RE: Nanobook
jeffhoward001 @ 6/8/2007 1:01:54 PM # Q
Here's a couple points that people are overlooking:

- If we're talking about business users and the Nanobook, XP Pro's going to run you another $100, Vista Pro about $200.

- With those specifications, Vista's performance is going to pretty marginal. The Foleo's performance is unknown at this point, but odds are it will be pretty good since it's using a custom OS and hardware build by the same company (no guarentees, but history has show this yields much better performance then generic hardware on generic operating systems).

- The entire concept of the Foleo is based around intelligent software that works with your smartphone to make usage between the devices fairly seemless. To what level Palm and outside developers will take this is still unknown, but this early in the a product's life cylce, it's best to pay attention to the concept of the device when you don't have any hands-on experience.

- Marketing, marketing, marketing... VIA has next to no presence in the world of marketing. We are all geeks (myself included) that follow mobile technology, so we're aware of the Nanobook. Unless someone else chooses to market this for VIA, it will remain a geeky reference device. If someone else chooses to market the product, then they will most likely re-brand it and tack on their mark-up. Palm has a great marketing engine that the business world trusts.

I'm still skeptical about the success of the Foleo, I just like to remind people of some of the less-geeky factors that go into building a new product.

Tungsten T --> Palm TX --> Foleo-mini??(like an LD-II with a small attached keyboard??)

RE: Nanobook
ChiA @ 6/8/2007 3:17:09 PM # Q
If we're talking about business users and the Nanobook, XP Pro's going to run you another $100, Vista Pro about $200.

jeffhoward, I wish you'd read previous posts before making your own, this ground has already been covered.

The nanobook with XP Pro comes to $498, a dollar cheaper than the Foleo at its $499 promotional price.

If you're going to keep on the right side of Microsoft's software agreements then you'd have to buy the full edition of XP Pro, not just the upgrade, unless the nanobook starts shipping with XP in which case it'll be cheaper still:
nanobook $199
XP Pro $299 (Staples.com)

Total $498

Vista is a no go unless Microsoft releases a new version to specifically run on these ultramobile PCs.

Nevertheless, it appears the nanobook's spec more than adequately cover XP's requirement and as of yet there seems to be little, if any software for the corporate environment that's strictly Vista only.

So for $499 people can choose between a full Windows ultramobile PC or a limited Linux laptop with limited rangee of apps.

RE: Nanobook
sungod @ 6/8/2007 8:56:47 PM # Q
"The nanobook comes with OpenOffice, a fully featured Office app that can open far more document formats (including Microsoft Office) than the current Docs to Go on the Palm" Chia

Last time I cheched OpenOffice still isn't compatable with the new Office07 files but Docs2Go is.

"The nanobook with XP Pro comes to $498, a dollar cheaper than the Foleo at its $499 promotional price."
"Vista is a no go unless Microsoft releases a new version to specifically run on these ultramobile PCs." Chia

Vista performance is a biger issue than you think.
XP will no longer be available past the end of the year.
That's the deadline M$ has given resellers like Dell who have continued to sell XP.

How good are cargo pants, they're a gadget lovers best friend.

RE: Nanobook
ChiA @ 6/9/2007 5:10:53 AM # Q
Last time I checked OpenOffice still isn't compatible with the new Office07 files but Docs2Go is.

I suggest you check more carefully, DocstoGo is only partially compatible with Office 07 in that you can only view files not edit them. Besides, these are the specs for DocstoGo for Palm OS and WinMob, who knows what the Linux version running on the Treo will offer.

If the ultramobile PC market proves to be lucrative enough Microsoft will be only too happy to provide a suitable OS solution; they may already be working on a specific version of Vista (or WinMob 6?) for this market as we type. Don't forget they prefer manufacturers to be using Microsoft products instead of Linux wherever possible!!!

RE: Nanobook
pmjoe @ 6/9/2007 8:17:02 AM # Q
Has anyone noticed that this runs a Linux distro with no clear path to sync with Windows documents and data?

You mean just like the Foleo?
Reply to this comment

A new name

Remmo @ 6/7/2007 10:19:12 PM # Q
So, from now, the Foleo must be renamed to FOOLeo.

Casio B.O.S.S. -> Casio PocketViewer -> Palm IIIe -> Palm IIIc -> Tungsten T -> Tungsten T|3 -> Tungsten T|5 -> Palm T|X -> Treo 680
Reply to this comment

The ANALyst Doesn't know Jeff's Hidden Ace!

LiveFaith @ 6/7/2007 11:08:36 PM # Q
The Foleo was demonstrated without with a power brick because it sports wireless power! And you moaners said Palm could not innovate.

http://tinyurl.com/3e4c6b

I'm in with both feet suckas!!!

Pat Horne

RE: The ANALyst Doesn't know Jeff's Hidden Ace!
mikecane @ 6/8/2007 7:46:28 AM # Q
Oh look! We'll all die of leukemia faster now!

RE: The ANALyst Doesn't know Jeff's Hidden Ace!
SeldomVisitor @ 6/8/2007 7:56:27 AM # Q
Or get cataracts so we can't see the displays.


RE: The ANALyst Doesn't know Jeff's Hidden Ace!
Remmo @ 6/8/2007 11:37:28 AM # Q
Wireless Electricity???? Mmm... It looks like Rayden (from Mortal Kombat) is now a Technology Designer too. Palm should hire him.

Casio B.O.S.S. -> Casio PocketViewer -> Palm IIIe -> Palm IIIc -> Tungsten T -> Tungsten T|3 -> Tungsten T|5 -> Palm T|X -> Treo 680
RE: The ANALyst Doesn't know Jeff's Hidden Ace!
SeldomVisitor @ 6/8/2007 12:13:22 PM # Q
There are benefits to living near powerlines:

-- http://mastuvu.typepad.com/monuments/the%20field2.jpg

Reply to this comment

Samsung Q1 Ultra UMPC

Gekko @ 6/9/2007 11:46:16 AM # Q
RE: Samsung Q1 Ultra UMPC
mikecane @ 6/9/2007 2:02:39 PM # Q
Gekko, you REALLY need to get out more...

Samsung Q1U With Vista: I Wouldn’t Want It For Free!
http://tinyurl.com/yvn9c6

RE: Samsung Q1 Ultra UMPC
Gekko @ 6/9/2007 9:19:03 PM # Q

so if money is no object, what's the smallest/best UMPC?

RE: Samsung Q1 Ultra UMPC
twrock @ 6/10/2007 2:43:24 AM # Q
The problem is that "smallest" is not necessarily "best".

I think that is the primary point with Hawkins' plans for the Foleo as a "companion". The Treo is the "UMPC" (a handheld computer). But the Treo is simply too small; it's missing a full-sized keyboard and "full-sized" screen. So he's trying to sell you a companion device that is supposedly little more than a keyboard and screen for your "handheld PC" (Treo). Clearly the majority of people who are writing about it think that his idea is a bad one.

But once you drop MS Windows as the "required" operating system to define UMPC (something MS isn't going to like people doing) there are any number of hardware form factors and software combinations that could be considered the "best" UMPC. That's why I suggested elsewhere that the Foleo form factor is actually very much what I would be looking for in a UMPC. That's because I demand a full-sized keyboard and then it only makes sense to have an equally large screen (at least as large as the keyboard).

A Foleo form factor "UMPC" with sufficient CPU power and memory running some form of stripped down GNU/Linux that allows a decent set of productivity apps and a great e-mail/web experience is far more interesting to me than all these other "undersized" UMPC devices (particularly if they are trying to cram Vista bloatware in there).

That's not to say that there might be something even more interesting just around the corner, I just haven't seen it yet. And as always, YMMV.


Thinking about Vista? Think again: http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/pubs/vista_cost.txt
Want an alternative? Try this: http://www.ubuntu.com/ or http://www.mepis.org/

RE: Samsung Q1 Ultra UMPC
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 6/10/2007 3:32:49 AM # Q
Get a Fujitsu LifeBook® P1610 Notebook.

http://store.shopfujitsu.com/fpc/Ecommerce/buildseriesbean.do?series=P1610


If you insist on a UMPC get the Sony.

The primary point of the Fooleo
SeldomVisitor @ 6/10/2007 7:05:25 AM # Q
> ...I think that is the primary point with Hawkins' plans for
> the Foleo as a "companion"...

Nah, the primary point of the Fooleo, EXTREMELY poorly communicated by Hawkins (good drugs or something?), is the automatic software stuff. I hesitate to say "automatic syncing" since there don't appear to be very many applications available (like...uh...ONE? Two?) that actually work yet, but that IS the primary point, IMHO.

BTW - there appears to be someone (the PALM-pessimist in me suggests the person is tightly PALM-related) on TreoCentral who started a not-very-successful thread to (re)push that thought:

-- http://discussion.treocentral.com/showthread.php?t=144963


RE: Samsung Q1 Ultra UMPC
twrock @ 6/10/2007 8:52:52 AM # Q
No doubt the "automatic software stuff" is critically important. I wouldn't argue that point at all. But a lot of what Hawkins said points directly to the idea that the Treo "needs" this Foleo because although the "Treo" (or future even smaller devices) can have a huge amount of functionality and storage, they lack a very usable keyboard and screen. This is but one example:

[interviewer:]In an interview earlier today, you said that the Foleo is going to help you rethink how you want to design smart phones. What do you mean?

[Hawkins:]We all struggle with this issue--you want to make this thing (the Treo) smaller. You want the screen to be bigger. You want the keyboard to be nonexistent, but you need to type. There's all these really difficult tradeoffs. Look at what Apple's doing. They decided to punt the keyboard. Steve Jobs thinks that's great. I don't know. We'll find out. We all struggle with the same problems.

I don't want to reveal too much. But I can now think through the problem differently. I can think through tradeoffs. Well, if I have something with a bigger screen and a keyboard--whether it looks like this (Foleo) or something else--where I can view and manipulate data, does it change how I design this guy (pointing to Treo)? Yes.

Go back. Read the interviews. Watch the videos. Seems he is saying pretty clearly that the Foleo is the keyboard and screen companion for your "Treo". Seems also that he is saying he can imagine other "possibilities" as well, both for the "Foleo" and for the "Treo".

BTW - there appears to be someone (the PALM-pessimist in me suggests the person is tightly PALM-related) on TreoCentral who started a not-very-successful thread to (re)push that thought:

(Shaking my head....) Why does it always have to be some "conspiracy"? Why if someone sees anything having to do with Palm and thinks there might be something "good" or even "interesting" about it, do they either have to be "Palm-related" or some hopeless "fanboy"? Just because many of us who post on this site "love to hate" Palm for all of the craziness/ineptitude/waste over the past years doesn't mean that we have to blindly follow along with the continuous bashing, not noticing anything but the faults. Some of us choose to engage our brains and consider that there might just be other possibilities that the "Palm-bashers" have not yet noticed and considered. Might it be alright if we have some place to actually discuss some of that?

If Palm can not do anything "right", if you can not possibly consider that there is potential for them to ever do anything "right" again no matter what steps they take, then why the heck do you even bother hanging around this Palm Infocenter site? Just go out and buy someone else's product and be done with it already!


Thinking about Vista? Think again: http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/pubs/vista_cost.txt
Want an alternative? Try this: http://www.ubuntu.com/ or http://www.mepis.org/

RE: Samsung Q1 Ultra UMPC
mikecane @ 6/10/2007 12:49:27 PM # Q
>>>If you insist on a UMPC get the Sony.

And drive yourself mad from that just-about-flush poor excuse of a keyboard!

The 1610 is a good unit. Fuji also has a smaller baby on the way too.

And then there is that Nanobook everyone pointed at. Dunno what that'll be like, though.

Me, I want this:
http://mikecane.wordpress.com/2007/04/20/lust-lust-lust-device/

Reply to this comment

Jeff's secret plan for Foleo

gmayhak @ 6/10/2007 9:34:30 AM # Q
I don't think he really expects people to carry these things around. If travelers could 'check out' (free or for a couple bucks) a Foleo when boarding a plane, checking into a hotel, having a coffee at Starbucks, etc. this could eliminate carrying anything except the Treo. With the right software and marketing this could have a big effect on mobile computing.

Gary
www.talestuff.com


Tech Center Labs

RE: Jeff's secret plan for Foleo
Gekko @ 6/10/2007 10:33:18 AM # Q

"check out" would mean to sync your personal data to the device's flash RAM. no thanks.

Reply to this comment

Stunning EXPOSE: the truth about the FOOLeo revealed!!!

The_Voice_of_Reason @ 6/10/2007 12:48:08 PM # Q
Palminfocenter exclusive

(Feel free to post this as a TVoR opinion piece, Ryan)


TVoR's Paradigm Shift: Web-Accessible, Smartphone-Centric Applications [The "WASCA Manifesto"]


Okay, so we've now all had time to digest Palm's recent embarrassing announcement of the FOOLeo®. We've heard Jeff Hawkins fumble around trying to explain its raison d'être. We've heard the Palm Apologists struggle to avoid admitting that the FOOLeo is something other than a complete disaster for Palm.

Hawkins claims that the FOOLeo is being positioned as a Treo companion, a veritable physical expander of the Treo's tiny screen and keyboard. The Treo remains the "brains" of the operation, while the FOOLeo acts as a portable equivalent of a laptop's docking station, complete with keyboard and bigger screen. The argument for such a setup is that everyone always carries around a cell phone, and as cell phones get smarter and acquire larger on-device storage, eventually these phones have the potential to become our primary computing devices. The only limitation in that case becomes the physical size of the cellphone, which both limits ease the entering data (via keyboard) and also makes it difficult to view the data due to small screen size. As long as the goal for the ideal cellphone remains for it to be as small as possible, cellphone design will always be at cross purposes with ideal methods of entering and viewing data. In the future, voice transcription software, holographic projection displays, screens projected onto eyeglasses etc. may be able to obviate the need for physically larger keyboards and screens, but this type of technology is still several years away. So what do users do now?

[Cue triumphant music] ENTER THE FOOLeo...

But wait a minute! Why would anyone in their right mind want to carry around another 2 1/2 pound device that can't even run regular Windows applications? Especially when dozens of lighter devices that do run Real Windows® are available? Isn't the whole point of convergence devices to avoid carrying extra hardware? If the Treo and other smartphones are supposed to become the personal computers of the future, surely there must be a better solution to the problems of entering data into and viewing data from tiny smartphone devices. Of course there's a better solution, but unfortunately, it's a rather revolutionary paradigm shift. And one other thing: Since it doesn't really require any new hardware, it won't exactly be a big moneymaker for Palm unless it becomes popular and manages to boost Treo sales. Let's just call it "Palm's Dirty Little Secret". The answer is...





Web-Accessible, Smartphone-Centric Applications [The "WASCA Manifesto"] featuring wireless (+/- wired) syncing to smartphones!

This is the first REAL paradigm shift we've seen since the dawn of the "PC Era", but it appears that Palm is too afraid/incompetent/slow to embrace it fully. How far to take this new way of thinking depends on whether a given company makes a lot of money selling desktops/laptops and/or software for desktops/laptops. If the company (e.g. Palm) has no vested interest in desktop/laptops and the software that runs on them, then the smart phone can be completely freed to become the new PC. Purely Web-based applications (available through any Internet-connected dumb terminal/desktop/laptop) would then allow users to have access to personal files with the added bonus of larger screens and keyboards whenever necessary. Taken to the extreme, users would be able to have real-time syncing (through broadband connections) to their smartphone of data being entered into these Web-based applications. A simpler solution would involve entering data into Web-based applications which would then be backed up (either over the air, via WiFi, via Bluetooth or via wired connection) to the smartphone with a user-initiated sync. With online storage available (at a price) for the data generated with Web-based applications, this syncing could occur at the users whim.

Companies selling desktops/laptops and/or software for desktops/laptops would obviously prefer for users to sync data to their more full-featured applications residing on desktops/laptops, while leaving the Web-based applications for more simplistic data entry and viewing.

So where does this leave the FOOLeo? Nowhere. Palm's problem is that it currently lacks the software needed to have PIM, word processing, accounting, database, presentation, music, video and other data syncing with their Treos. A project of this scope would require flawless integration of a complete suite of Web-based applications with counterparts on the Treo. It seems highly unlikely that PalmOS 5 would-be robust enough to handle this type of mobile application. Can you say PalmLinux? I knew you could.

The FOOLeo is simply a beta test mule (donkey?) for the whole concept of a smartphone syncing with a larger device wirelessly. Its (simplistic) email syncing merely amounts to an early proof of concept. Baby steps. For Palm to REALLY succeed, they need to cut out the need for proprietary HARDWARE like the FOOLeo by figuring out how to get the Web-based syncing running smoothly.

Two problems:
1) Palm's code monkey talent is too limited to get this all up and running with the bugs worked out anytime soon.
2) Microsoft (and soon Apple) already have suites of functional desktop applications as well as smartphone applications that could be used to create a competing system fairly quickly. I doubt that Palm will be able to execute quickly enough to have a chance in this impending David versus Goliath death match.

Treo = The new PC. Brilliant. Simply, Palm.


Copyright, 2007.
TVoR, Inc.

RE: Stunning EXPOSE: the truth about the FOOLeo revealed!!!
mikecane @ 6/10/2007 12:52:33 PM # Q
Duh. It's called Web 2.0, eejit. Welcome to the year 2000.

RE: Stunning EXPOSE: the truth about the FOOLeo revealed!!!
mikecane @ 6/10/2007 12:53:21 PM # Q
BTW, you ever hear of AJAX outside of a cleaning context?

RE: Stunning EXPOSE: the truth about the FOOLeo revealed!!!
SeldomVisitor @ 6/10/2007 1:08:45 PM # Q
> BTW, you ever hear of AJAX...

Bill Coleman has.

RE: Stunning EXPOSE: the truth about the FOOLeo revealed!!!
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 6/10/2007 1:35:34 PM # Q
Caney, you are truly the embodiment of the word "dullard". Congratulations. We have some nice parting gets for you as you exit stage left.

TVoR

RE: Stunning EXPOSE: the truth about the FOOLeo revealed!!!
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 6/10/2007 10:00:24 PM # Q
The answers to these questions may determine if the FOOLeo (and thus Palm) survive:

1) Is the lack of applications demonstrated thus far that are capable of syncing between the Treo and the FOOLeo indicative of Palm's failure to get the code done in time, or are they simply playing their cards close to their chest, waiting until device launch to announce a COMPLETE suite of LINUX/PalmLinux applications capable of bi(tri?)directional syncing?

2) Can the applications in a complete suite of Linux/PalmLinux programs easily scale up or down to run on the following:
- PalmLinux Treo smartphones
- FOOLios
- The Web (as OS-agnostic Internet applications)

3) Is Palm capable of creating a syncing protocol that permits fast, reliable, continuous background syncing of one (or all) of the applications on a Treo smartphone or a FOOLio?

4) If Palm has not even been capable of writing a competent PalmOS email program in over a decade, can they reasonably be expected to come up with an entire suite of Linux-based applications that run on multiple device categories? Or is Jeff Hawkins again expecting that developers (his biotches) will do Palm's work for them by coming up with these applications? I can't imagine that Hawkins would be so arrogant (and stupid) enough to expect developers will do Palm's bidding. Given the complexities of this type of application compared to how simplistic PalmOS was to program for, it seems unrealistic to expect any significant contribution by developers to the PalmLinux application library any time soon. Translation: "The developer community and open-source community aren't going to save Palm's sorry a$$ this time around."

5) How effectively and how quickly will Microsoft and Apple be willing to respond to the threat posed by the meme of smartphone as the "new PC"? Will these companies be willing to move away from designs and revenue models derived from the traditional dogma of PCs that haven't changed in over 25 years? In the past, it has been Palm that sat still and literally gave away potentially lucrative markets that it was previously ideally positioned to dominate. In recent years, Palm has lost the mobile email, MP3 player, personal media player and smartphone markets to the likes of Blackberry, Apple, Samsung, Nokia, Sony Ericsson, etc. primarily because of Palm's arrogance, laziness and reluctance to innovate. How likely is it that Palm would then be able to turn the tables and outinnovate its competition with a lineup of "Smartphone PCs" and "pan-connected PalmTops®/PseudoLaptops"? (Unlike Palm) Apple, Microsoft, Nokia, Sony Ericsson, Adobe, RIM, etc. are not run by fools. Microsoft especially would seem likely to be willing to sacrifice profits in traditional markets (desktop/laptop software) in order to compete aggressively in a new marketplace, primarily to prevent the competition from establishing a foothold.

6) With the scaling down of a traditional desktop OS like Windows to power increasingly small/light/powerful laptops and UMPC, will there even be a market left for the idea of "Smartphone PCs"? Once we start commonly seeing microlaptops the size of paperback books that are capable of running Real Windows® (Windows Tablet Edition or Vista), is there even any point in pursuing alternatives incapable of running Real Windows® applications? Is a Treo XXX/Nokia E61/Samsung Blackjack/Sony Ericsson P990i paired with a Fujitsu P1610 (or the even smaller 5.6 inch screened Fujitsu FMV-U8240 http://www.akihabaranews.com/en/review-82-X.html)a more practical (albeit more expensive) solution?


Jeff Hawkins hit home runs with both the original Pilot and the Treo 600. He hit a solid single with the Handspring Visor. But I think he's about to strike out on three straight pitches with the FOOLeo/Smartphone PC concept - not because it isn't a good idea, but rather because the people he's surrounded himself with are incapable of realizing his vision. Sorry, Jeff but you can't win 'em all...


TVoR

RE: Stunning EXPOSE: the truth about the FOOLeo revealed!!!
mikecane @ 6/11/2007 7:37:30 AM # Q
Broke through your meds again, have you? Why post 5 words when 50,000 will do?

RE: Stunning EXPOSE: the truth about the FOOLeo revealed!!!
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 6/12/2007 10:47:23 PM # Q
Thanks for sharing, Auntie Mike. Can you post some more links to your pathetic little blog?

TVoR

Apple reacts to threat of Jeff Hawkins' FOOLeo concept
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 7/5/2007 8:02:11 AM # Q
Well it looks like Apple has seen the threat that the WASCA manifesto poses for traditional desktop-centric computing...


http://mobileopportunity.blogspot.com/2007/07/why-is-apple-porting-its-browser-to.html


http://www.roughlydrafted.com/RD/RDM.Tech.Q2.07/A35C23B9-BD22-4478-BC30-4111CFC360B5.html

The times they are a-changin'...


TVoR

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Palm Goes Opera, Rest Of World Goes Safari

mikecane @ 6/12/2007 4:33:38 PM # Q
An inflammatory exagerration to highlight the fact that the Flopeo running Opera looks like an even bigger mistake than I first though.

Earth To Palm: Change The Foleo’s Browser To Safari
http://tinyurl.com/2n5x3h

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