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Comments on: Palm Announces the Palm webOS

Palm PrePalm's next generation platform is officially entitled the Palm webOS. Palm says the user experience is developed around multitasking and the simplicity of a web browser. It features a web based application suite and supports touchscreen finger based input, background applications and is tightly interconnected with the Internet and various web services.

The Palm webOS developer environment is called Mojo and Palm has just posted a set of preliminary developer information and SDK details. The Mojo Application framework is based on HTML5, CSS, and JavaScript web development standards. Applications shown so far have featured gesture-based navigation and scrolling, animated transitions and tilt sensor orientation.

The Palm Pre will be the first phone based on the new platform. The Pre is scheduled to be available exclusively from Sprint in the first half of 2009.

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Wow

medevilenemy @ 1/8/2009 1:27:14 PM # Q
Yep, this just might do it... I already want one (though I'm sure I won't be able to afford it). Lets see if they can follow it up with mid and low end devices with equivilent amounts of awesome.

Hopefully this will silence the trolls and nay-sayers for a little while.

RE: Wow
EdH @ 1/8/2009 1:35:49 PM # Q
Does this support OS5 apps at all, or did Palm just start totally from scratch and abandon older apps?

RE: Wow
medevilenemy @ 1/8/2009 1:37:55 PM # Q
I didn't hear anything about that, but I think its safe to assume it will have legacy support... Otherwise they are just idiots.

RE: Wow
freakout @ 1/8/2009 1:44:08 PM # Q
I'd be surprised if they didn't include backwards-compatibility - they did spend all that money buying back the Garnet code from ACCESS, after all.
RE: Wow
EdH @ 1/8/2009 2:06:19 PM # Q
Well, that is what I was thinking but they didn't say anything about it (that I heard) and it seemed to be very different, so that even if it did support OS5 apps, it would be in a sandbox.

Will wait for more details to come out.

RE: Wow
He||Raiser @ 1/8/2009 2:14:30 PM # Q
Wouldn't running legacy apps in an emulated sandbox be a good idea? Garnet developed a history of being crashy and the apps were a big part of it. If the apps only crashed the emulator rather than requiring a reset of the device, wouldn't that be a big positive?

I think a big factor in the success of the new OS for Palm will be making sure that it doesn't get afflicted by the crashiness seen in FrankenGarnet and the 3G iPhone.

RE: Wow
feranick @ 1/8/2009 2:28:35 PM # Q
Not sure if this is related...

"And good news for Palm OS developers! There are a number of ways to migrate data from a an existing PDB file to your new WebOS app. Stay tuned for more information for developers with Palm OS applications who want to build WebOS applications."

http://developer.palm.com/

RE: Wow
LiveFaith @ 1/8/2009 2:54:12 PM # Q
Consider this naysayer silenced. No legacy support, but fear not this platform is going to generate some serious "synergy" (sorry) on it's own. Moving data from Treos may take some work, but many ways exist. Nice specs. Beautiful execution. I'm stunned.



Pat Horne

RE: Wow
Smartmoose @ 1/8/2009 6:23:28 PM # Q
From Medevilenemy's post:
"I didn't hear anything about that, but I think its safe to assume it will have legacy support... Otherwise they are just idiots."

Well... consider them idiots. CNet had a reporter ask about legacy applications, and the response was the following:

"It won't natively run applications written for the original Palm OS, but we anticipate there will be solutions to do so."

CNet article here: http://ces.cnet.com/8301-19167_1-10137222-100.html?part=rss&subj=news&tag=2547-1_3-0-20

So, they're leaving it up to 3rd party developers like StyleTap. Since StyleTap already has a PalmOS emulator working for the iPhoneOS, all Apple needs to do is to permit Virtual Machines / Emulators to run on the operating system (it's currently forbidden, hence the reason the app hasn't been released for sale). If Apple says, "Yes," to VMs on the iPhone, then old PalmOS users will have a solution on that platform immediately, rather than waiting for a solution to come out for the Palm Pre.

Out of the box, though, PalmOS users are looking at buying all new applications for their third party apps with either the iPhone or the Palm Pre. So, Palm won't even have the "legacy support" card to play in swaying user opinion to those coming from PalmOS devices. It'll be interesting to see how this plays out.

RE: Wow
DrewT3 @ 1/8/2009 7:05:36 PM # Q
Yes, it will be interesting. Especially considering that the only announced development platform for the Pre is Javascript/HTML.

To write a Garnet emulator, this would require one of the following:

Pre can run Javascript as fast as other machines run natively compiled C.
WebOS has a native API that offers all the Garnet APIs.
Palm will allow native (non javascript) development on WebOS.

Realistically, for a Garnet emulator to happen they will need to allow native apps to be written.

The degree to which Palm lets developers loose is what will make Palm different from Apple.

RE: Wow
DarthRepublican @ 1/8/2009 7:29:32 PM # Q
From Medevilenemy's post:
"I didn't hear anything about that, but I think its safe to assume it will have legacy support... Otherwise they are just idiots."

Well... consider them idiots. CNet had a reporter ask about legacy applications, and the response was the following:

"It won't natively run applications written for the original Palm OS, but we anticipate there will be solutions to do so."

CNet article here: http://ces.cnet.com/8301-19167_1-10137222-100.html?part=rss&subj=news&tag=2547-1_3-0-20

So, they're leaving it up to 3rd party developers like StyleTap. Since StyleTap already has a PalmOS emulator working for the iPhoneOS, all Apple needs to do is to permit Virtual Machines / Emulators to run on the operating system (it's currently forbidden, hence the reason the app hasn't been released for sale). If Apple says, "Yes," to VMs on the iPhone, then old PalmOS users will have a solution on that platform immediately, rather than waiting for a solution to come out for the Palm Pre.

Out of the box, though, PalmOS users are looking at buying all new applications for their third party apps with either the iPhone or the Palm Pre. So, Palm won't even have the "legacy support" card to play in swaying user opinion to those coming from PalmOS devices. It'll be interesting to see how this plays out.


That's a rather disturbing quote/spin. With legacy support, Palm webOS is a no-brainer for me. Without it, I find myself wondering whether there's a point to jumping back on the PalmOS bandwagon. I have been slowly moving to Android on my T-Mobile G1 and while I'm not all the way there, I certainly don't need to spend time and energy migrating to another mobile OS. Backward compatibility would have meant having my cake and eating it too - I'd be able to have a hot new phone and still have Datebk5, HandyShopper, and BibleReader. Without legacy support, Palm webOS is just another shiny piece of shiny. I don't need shiny, I need floating events, an enhanced shopping list, and the multiple versions of the Bible that I already have on either my Treo 680, my Palm TX, or any of half dozen or so old PDAs and smartphones that I have lying around the house.

But what I need more than anything else is an easy way to migrate my decade of Palm data easily. I was able to migrate my calendar data to Android quite easily with Goosync but they wanted money to handle the other Palm PIM apps, so I spent a couple hours messing around with a .csv file to get my contacts into Google Contacts. It only worked about half-way, I got all the names and some of the phone numbers in but had to spend another couple of hours typing in the rest. Android doesn't have native to do and memo apps (there are plenty of third-party apps but after putting in the contacts, I'm reluctant to try any of them). So here I am with half my PIM in my Android phone and I'm not eager to go through another slog of struggling to get a decade of PIM data in my phone. So that's the biggest issue for me, bigger than backwards compatibility, how is it to migrate my data? If the Palm Pre is just another platform to choose and I have to go through a lot of pain to migrate to it, I might as well stay on Android where the job is already half done.

Screw convergence
Palm III->Visor Deluxe->Visor Platinum->Visor Prism->Tungsten E->Palm LifeDrive->Palm TX
Visor Pro+VisorPhone->Treo 180g->Treo 270->Treo 600->Treo 680->T-Mobile G1
http://mind-grapes.blogspot.com/

RE: Wow
mikecane @ 1/9/2009 8:14:57 AM # Q
>>>So that's the biggest issue for me, bigger than backwards compatibility, how is it to migrate my data?

Yep. Some sharp dev out there will come out with Data Move program that will migrate Palm data to ANY platform. That'd be great.

Reply to this comment

Too Cool!

ZireGuy31 @ 1/8/2009 1:27:14 PM # Q
It looks so awesome, but I think they could have come up with a little cooler name, don't you? I mean Palm webOS, a bit cheesy, but I think it was the turnaround Palm needed! The Palm Pre looks great too, I want it! Anyone know if webOS will run older Palm programs?

I'm glad that I stayed true to Palm! And laugh in the face of all those who thought this was just going to be a new Centro Color!

RE: Too Cool!
palmit @ 1/8/2009 1:31:40 PM # Q
Not on this site.

They will find something to complaint about.

Bo ho, all my old pim data!



RE: Too Cool!
mikecane @ 1/8/2009 1:36:27 PM # Q
>>>Bo ho, all my old pim data!

Apparently you are some autistic idiot who somehow got access to the Net and a keyboard at the Institution.

Maybe YOU are so effing feeble-minded that YOU don't have ACTUAL DATA in your PDA, but we NORMAL people with WORKING BRAINS DO.

RE: Too Cool!
palmit @ 1/8/2009 1:39:55 PM # Q
You are looking kind of stupid today. I understand, with all those predictions on how Palm is out away!

lol

RE: Too Cool!
mikecane @ 1/8/2009 1:45:22 PM # Q
You can't even type simple English, you moron.

RE: Too Cool!
palmit @ 1/8/2009 1:50:54 PM # Q
OOOOOkkkkkk!

RE: Too Cool!
DrewT3 @ 1/8/2009 1:57:31 PM # Q
The second hand on the clock doesn't have a drop shadow. Rubbish!

RE: Too Cool!
orca @ 1/8/2009 2:16:36 PM # Q
>>> Bo ho, all my old pim data!

Well, the developer page mentions, "There are a number of ways to migrate data from a an existing PDB file to your new WebOS app." Time will tell what that means ...

http://developer.palm.com/

Reply to this comment

Reserving judgment

mikecane @ 1/8/2009 1:30:46 PM # Q
I still have too many unanswered questions about this.

Right now this seems like the first CloudPhone (a damn BETTER name than Pre!).

According to Dan Lyons (aka Fake Steve Jobs) over at Newsweek:
http://www.newsweek.com/id/178536/output/print

>>>While the iPhone has demonstrated the power of putting a real computer operating system on a mobile device, the iPhone itself is far from perfect. For one thing, the battery life on the new 3G model is abysmal. And while it is cool to be able to browse the Web from a handheld device, the iPhone's Internet experience is nowhere near as good as the experience you get on a laptop or desktop computer. It's much slower; Rubinstein and his team say that's because the OS X code is not lean enough to run swiftly on a mobile device's relatively tiny processor and small memory footprint. And you can only do one thing at a time. To change applications—to go from checking email to making a phone call to putting an appointment in your calendar—you have to keep climbing back to the home page and then down to the other application. Apple introduced OS X for its personal computers in 2001, but pieces of the system trace their roots back to the 1980s, when they were used in the operating software of computers made by Jobs's other computer company, NeXT. Palm sees an opportunity to come out with something newer, better and—perhaps most impressive to gadget geeks—faster. A lot faster. "We're already four times faster than the iPhone, and we're still optimizing," McNamee boasts.

And:

>>>Under the hood is a speedy new microprocessor from Texas Instruments that runs videos fast and smooth, with less of the herky-jerkiness that mobile devices are known for. The phone has 8 gigabytes of storage, which is decent but not great; it can run Adobe Flash, and can cut-copy-and-paste, which iPhone can't; it supports multimedia messaging service (MMS) so you can send text messages with photos attached, which iPhone can't do; it has a 3-megapixel camera and a flash, which iPhone lacks. There's a button that lets you buy music from Amazon's download store. Then there's the multitasking. Want to talk on the speakerphone while browsing the Web and entering stuff in your calendar? No problem. Palm expects people will keep 15 to 20 applications open at the same time.

Well if can DO frikkin Flah video AND Cut&Paste, why the hell didn't they SHOW some of that?! They would have gotten a damned STANDING OVATION on the spot!

RE: Reserving judgment
palmit @ 1/8/2009 1:33:10 PM # Q
Well if can DO frikkin Flah video AND Cut&Paste, why the hell didn't they SHOW some of that?! They would have gotten a damned STANDING OVATION on the spot!


Oh yeah, thats really big, look we can do cut n paste!



RE: Reserving judgment
mikecane @ 1/8/2009 1:34:20 PM # Q
>>>Oh yeah, thats really big, look we can do cut n paste!

STFU, you eejit. C&P is big and iPhone doesn't yet have it.

RE: Reserving judgment
palmit @ 1/8/2009 1:37:23 PM # Q
From Palm site.

Media formats supported Audio Formats: MP3, AAC, AAC+, AMR, QCELP, WAV
Video Formats: MPEG-4, H.263, H.264
Image Formats: GIF, Animated GIF, JPEG, PNG, BMP

You got to be kidding if on this day that mentioning cut n paste is a big deal!

lol

RE: Reserving judgment
freakout @ 1/8/2009 1:40:14 PM # Q
Maybe it's not something that deserves a big launch fanfare, but it is nice to know they have it.
RE: Reserving judgment
mikecane @ 1/8/2009 1:48:21 PM # Q
>>>Media formats supported

And they demonstrated what? Just MP3?

I'm sure video is the first thing you went looking for. You're no doubt happy to know your legacy pr0n is safe.

RE: Reserving judgment
palmit @ 1/8/2009 1:49:50 PM # Q
"Maybe it's not something that deserves a big launch fanfare, but it is nice to know they have it."

I can agree with that statement, but to single it out today doesnt make any sense and to me sounds like sour grapes!

RE: Reserving judgment
mikecane @ 1/8/2009 1:52:08 PM # Q
>>>to me sounds like

Who CARES what YOU think - because you can't and don't.

RE: Reserving judgment
palmit @ 1/8/2009 2:00:35 PM # Q
Hit a nerve, baby!

RE: Reserving judgment
palmit @ 1/8/2009 2:15:18 PM # Q
From Engadget - http://www.engadget.com/2009/01/08/palm-pre-first-hands-on-with-live-updates/

The device will feature copy and paste, which is implemented by holding a thumb on the gesture area and grabbing the text you want with your other thumb or a finger - there's also a dropdown menu that lets your move through a number of editing options.



Reply to this comment

No wonder they canned the Foleo

freakout @ 1/8/2009 1:42:47 PM # Q
webOS and the Pre make it look positively stone-age. Rubinstein says they're working on a whole family of webOS products and the Pre is just the opening salvo; what's the bet we'll see the "Mobile Companion" revisited soon after?
RE: No wonder they canned the Foleo
mikecane @ 1/8/2009 1:47:14 PM # Q
That OS running on a Foleo-like tablet would certainly provide a better syncing experience than the original Foleo did. In fact, it'd be more like "Look, ma! No sync!" It's all in the cloud.

Reply to this comment

Gizmodo loves the Pre

freakout @ 1/8/2009 1:49:35 PM # Q
Calls it "the ultimate stealth handset":

It transcends what a mobile device should feel like. It's smooth but also tough enough to feel like you're using something that's going to last. I really like how the back of the slider is reflective like an iPod touch (might be good for the ladies and their make-up too).

http://i.gizmodo.com/5126702/palm-pre-hands+on-first-impressions

RE: Gizmodo loves the Pre
mikecane @ 1/8/2009 1:53:13 PM # Q
Yeah, yeah, blah, blah.

What we need are links to hands-on videos. I can't tell how any of it works based on still pics and text descriptions. I hope YouTube is getting filled with videos.

Reply to this comment

Palm's Stephane Maes answers Qs

mikecane @ 1/8/2009 1:55:42 PM # Q
Answers to burning Palm Pre questions
http://ces.cnet.com/8301-19167_1-10137222-100.html?part=rss&subj=news&tag=2547-1_3-0-20

>>>The Web browser is Palm-developed, but based on the WebKit engine. No word on Flash support, he said. Palm didn't give a lot of details on the media player, but Maes said Pre owners will be able to buy music from the device via the Amazon music store.

>>>What else? Let's see. It's not a world phone, it can't be used as a tethered modem for a PC. It is Linux-based, though that is invisible for most developers as the tools to write applications are JavaScript, HTML, and CSS. It won't natively run applications written for the original Palm OS, but Maes said "we anticipate there will be solutions to do so."

Someone in Twitter wonders if the camera is stills-only or can do video. Good question!

RE: Palm's Stephane Maes answers Qs
DrewT3 @ 1/8/2009 2:19:46 PM # Q
Palm's site lists (under details):
Phone as laptop modem - Bluetooth tethering

RE: Palm's Stephane Maes answers Qs
joad @ 1/8/2009 5:34:46 PM # Q
...which brings up the question of whether or not Palm has finally figured out how to implement Bluetooth properly yet. I prefer good old reliable cables until that happens.

Reply to this comment

Just brilliant

stellaboy @ 1/8/2009 2:01:42 PM # Q
I was looking forward to something good today and I got it. I think the tech sites will take kindly to it.
Palm have definitly innovated here. Its a completely new direction.

Ryan, kris, good job on the updates I enjoyed that blog, although I could tell you got a bit tired near the end.

Palm, good job too.

pilot 5000 >Palm V > m505 >Tungsten T >A bad win mo 5 pda >Clie Peg ux50 > Tungsten t3 >Treo 680 >Centro

Reply to this comment

Backward Compatibility??

kfife @ 1/8/2009 2:21:46 PM # Q
But is there Backward compatibility for existing loyal palm users??

Without some sort of migration path (which naturally includes apps), this is NOTHING BUT a totally new product (in a crowded space), from the same management team that brouht us Folio, Grafitti2, & Cobalt. Palm 'shafted' me years ago with Grafitti2 after a 7 year relationship with no option to use Grafitti 1. If they 'shaft' me again with no migration path for my apps, and they 'EOL' all of their current paradigms, then I'd just as soon go to Apple than let them shaft me again. It's a relationship guys. A long term relationship! You can't bite the loyal hand that feeds you.


RE: Backward Compatibility??
rcartwright @ 1/8/2009 6:21:00 PM # Q
kfife

You do have a migration path through the cloud. Regarding the statement about feeling "shafted" by Palm not providing backward compatability and going to Apple...well Apple has no problem whatsoever shafting the users when it suits them for no particular reason. I would at least give Palm props for having a good reason to start over.

Palm did what they had to do today and I am considering canning a 22 year relationship with ATT-Cingular-BellSouth Mobility to go to Sprint.

"Many men stumble across the truth, but most manage to pick themselves up
and continue as if nothing had happened."
- Winston Churchill

RE: Backward Compatibility??
gtbaum @ 1/8/2009 9:32:12 PM # Q
Thank goodness Apple will never shaft you.

RE: Backward Compatibility??
hotpaw4 @ 1/9/2009 9:48:26 AM # Q
Looks like included backwards compatibility is only for exporting PDB data... if you can find a new webOS app that can make sense of what's exported.

.

Reply to this comment

Presentation video is up

mikecane @ 1/8/2009 2:21:59 PM # Q
RE: Presentation video is up
freakout @ 1/8/2009 2:25:53 PM # Q
Damn it. And me having to leave for work now too!
Reply to this comment

Predictions

vetdoctor @ 1/8/2009 2:33:18 PM # Q
Where's that well placed Sillicon valley-guy that was talking about everyone dieing at Palm?


In short, I had always believed that the world involved magic: now I thought that perhaps it involved a magician.
- Chesterton

Reply to this comment

good, but probably not good enough

tompi @ 1/8/2009 2:41:50 PM # Q
Well, they have done a better job than expected, but I don't think it's enough. In terms of functionality, features, extensibility, and compatibility, I don't see significant advantages of this device over the G1.

The main distinction is that this device encourages developing code in HTML/JavaScript, but that is much less compelling in practice than it sounds; developing anything non-trivial in HTML/JavaScript is actually pretty hard. Furthermore, adding and integrating that capability into Android is fairly easy if there is really a demand for it.

I think the biggest defect is their business model: they are trying to make money from an exclusive device and software, but that's razor thin margins. They are competing with no-name Chinese phones running Android and Windows Mobile. Google probably got it right: give the software away and make money in services. Nokia is going down the same route.

I just ordered my Android phone...

RE: good, but probably not good enough
twrock @ 1/8/2009 3:59:20 PM # Q
Good points to think about. I wouldn't jump at this immediately, even if it was a GSM phone. Android is intriguing, and I don't "need" a new phone or PDA at the moment. By the time I need either of those, I think I'll know a lot more whether or not this is a viable platform for me to invest in.

But it does look pretty, both the hardware and OS.


"twrock is infamous around these parts"
(from my profile over at Brighthand due to my negative 62 rep points rating)

RE: good, but probably not good enough
Nycran @ 1/8/2009 4:06:57 PM # Q
"The main distinction is that this device encourages developing code in HTML/JavaScript, but that is much less compelling in practice than it sounds; developing anything non-trivial in HTML/JavaScript is actually pretty hard. Furthermore, adding and integrating that capability into Android is fairly easy if there is really a demand for it."

Whilst I understand what you're saying, I actually think this is a master stoke by Palm. There is a whole new generation of developers growing up around XHTML/javascript and web technology. The kids of today will be all too happy to develop for this. Had of Palm released a C++ SDK, that would have raised the barrier to entry considerably. No, I expect a plethora of apps to come through quickly for this.

I'm looking forward to seeing the details of how Mojo works.

RE: good, but probably not good enough
tompi @ 1/8/2009 4:18:36 PM # Q
"I actually think this is a master stoke by Palm."

It's a good bet, I just don't think it's good enough.

"There is a whole new generation of developers growing up around XHTML/javascript and web technology."

I think that's not a correct analysis of what's happening. HTML and JavaScript are not replacing other programming technologies, they are merely used to complement it. And even for that purpose, they are tough to develop in. Applications like Zoho, Google Docs, Facebook, etc. are still flaky and slow, despite some of the smartest HTML/JavaScript developers working on them.

Reliance on HTML/JavaScript will allow people to build large numbers of trivial apps, but it will make it hard or impossible to develop complex and computationally intensive mobile apps: media players, games, camera software, video compression, etc.

RE: good, but probably not good enough
scstraus2 @ 1/8/2009 5:29:35 PM # Q
From the videos (which you probably hadn't seen yet), WebOS seems to take usability beyond even the iPhone. It makes Android look positively primitive. Add in outlook sync and some other important advantages over Android and I don't see why anyone would buy one now (sorry you placed your order already). This is the first phone since the iPhone that was truly droolworthy.

I'm amazed. I can't wait to get one.

Palm Pilot 5000->Palm Pilot Professional->Handspring Visor->Handspring Visor Prism->Handspring Visor Neo->Handspring Treo 180->Handspring Treo 270->Palm Treo 600->Tapwave Zodiac 2->Palm Treo 650->Palm Treo 680->...

Samsung i780!

Goodbye Palm

RE: good, but probably not good enough
DrewT3 @ 1/8/2009 7:15:24 PM # Q
Tompi, you could end up being right. But for now I am much more excited by the Pre than the G1. I will change my mind if an android manufacture puts the same amount love into a new Android phone as Palm put into the Pre.

Popular consumer devices are made by the details. Many companies are reluctant to invest too much in a platform they don't control, and therefore can't collect an exclusive margin from.

RE: good, but probably not good enough
tompi @ 1/9/2009 1:03:56 AM # Q
"From the videos (which you probably hadn't seen yet), WebOS seems to take usability beyond even the iPhone. It makes Android look positively primitive."

You can't judge usability based on a demo video. Furthermore, I don't think anybody has ever shown that the iPhone has high usability; what it does have is a lot of visual effects.

If you want a phone with high usability, Emporia makes those:

http://www2.emporia.at/de/produkte/emporiatalk/

But presumably, that's not what you're looking for.

RE: good, but probably not good enough
palmato @ 1/9/2009 4:13:56 AM # Q
I also agree with what Tompi writes.
For application developers this really looks a lot like the Iphone 1.0 with some improvements, mainly because of html5 adoption and the introduction of a device API local web service.
However development of non trivial applications remains difficult without support of java or C(++). One of the most common criticism of Androd I've read, is that lack of support of C developemnt prevents the porting of many applications, since it would require complete rewriting of the code.
Taking the iphone as an example case, it's pretty much evident that the third party application market only exploded when native development was introduced. The web application where less than trivial, and nowadays no one remembers them.

I think palm will find itself in the same situation as Apple was in the first year: nice, but when can we start doing interesting stuff with that?

PS: On the other hand the improvements they have introduced may make it a lot easier to develop vertical application for the business market. Only question is whether the os supports offline application launch: if it doesn't it's pretty much dead.

-------------
Hey Admin: Why do we have to keep two profiles?

RE: good, but probably not good enough
mikecane @ 1/9/2009 6:55:49 AM # Q
It remains to be seen if this is nothing more - *right now* - than iPhone v1-PLUS. That is, an OS that won't yet allow full-blown apps in "real" programming languages. It could be another year to go before there's the kind of native program SDK that's usually expected.

Hey, if that's the case, there's no shame there. Palm has put out enough *right now* to bookmark their place in the race.

Reply to this comment

Palm Pre Features We'd Like to know about

vipm @ 1/8/2009 4:09:11 PM # Q
Here are some features/questions of the Palm Pre/Palm WebOS that we'd like to know if they'll exist:

1. reset button-does one exist?
2. what material is screen made of? is it scratch-resistant?
3. how's the keyboard? is it spongy or snappy? can you turn on keyboard clicks/sound?
4. when will GSM phone come out?
5. I wish Palm would support viewing DIV movie files or allow third-parties to add video codecs
6. Didn't Apple patent some of the features (gestures, etc.)? I hope Palm cleared all this with their lawyers.
7. Will the gesture area support Graffiti?
8. How's the device's toughness? What drop height can it withstand?
9. Can you specify it use Wi-Fi instead of the costly telco way to connect to the Internet?
10. How will developers be able to sell their apps? what will Palm's cut be?
11. Can you use phone as modem for laptop?
12. Can you use the microSD port to attach feature-expanding devices?
13. Is there a way to expand storage?

RE: Palm Pre Features We'd Like to know about
Gekko @ 1/8/2009 4:17:27 PM # Q

Jerry: She's good looking.

George: How good looking?

Jerry: Very good looking.

George: Really good looking?

Jerry: Really very good looking.

George: Would you take her out?

Jerry: Yes, I would take her out.

George: Oh, you hesitated.

Jerry: What hesitate? I didn't hesitate!

George: No, something's off here, you hesitated.

Jerry: I'm telling you, she's good looking.

George: What about the body, what kind of body?

Jerry: Good body, nice body.

George: How nice?

Jerry: Nice.

George: Just nice?

Jerry: Pretty nice.

George: Really good?

Jerry: Really very nice and good.

George: What about personality?

Jerry: Good personality. Funny. Bright.

George: Smarter than me? I don't want anyone smarter than me.

Jerry: How could she be smarter than you?

George: Alright, let's see, let's see. What else. What else. Oh yeah, what
does she do?

George: What kind of hair?

Jerry: You know, long dark hair.

George: Flowing?

Jerry: Flowing?

George: Is it flowing? I like flowing, cascading hair. Thick lustrous hair is
very important to me.

Jerry: 'Thick lustrous hair is very important to me,' is that what you said?

George: Yeah, that's right.

Jerry: Just clarifying.

George: Let me ask you this. If you stick your hand in the hair is it easy to
get it out?

Jerry: Do you want to be able to get it out or do you want to not be able to
get it out?

George: I'd like to be able to get it out.

Jerry: I think you'll get it out.

George: What about the skin? I need a good cheek, I like a good cheek.

Jerry: She's got a fine cheek.

George: Is there a pinkish hue?

Jerry: A pinkish hue?

George: Yes, a rosy glow.

Jerry: There's a hue. She's got great eyebrows, women kill to have her
eyebrows.

George: Who cares about eyebrows? Is she sweet? I like sweet. But not too
sweet, you could throw up from that.

Jerry: I don't think you'll throw up. *She* likes to throw up.


RE: Palm Pre Features We'd Like to know about
hkklife @ 1/9/2009 11:24:29 AM # Q
1. reset button-does one exist?
A: None that I saw, I think you gotta remove the battery

2. what material is screen made of? is it scratch-resistant?
A: Couldn't tell, but it is a capacitive screen. No plans for a stylus for it, at least not a first-party Palm one. It's all fingers & keyboard.

3. how's the keyboard? is it spongy or snappy? can you turn on keyboard clicks/sound?
Didn't get a chance to feel the keyboard but its response seemed pretty good. I'd figure on it being comparable to the smaller "smile" Treo boards 680/750/755p)

4. when will GSM phone come out?
No idea but my best buess would be early fall '09 at the soonest

5. I wish Palm would support viewing DIV movie files or allow third-parties to add
video codecs
A: We were promised 'ample codec support out of the box" and a robust media player. No word on 3rd party codecs. I would assume no.

6. Didn't Apple patent some of the features (gestures, etc.)? I hope Palm cleared all this with their lawyers.
A: Superb question. We will go back to palm and ask them about this later on.

7. Will the gesture area support Graffiti?
A. Not natively and I highly doubt it'll be added. It's a VERy small gesture area, so some graffiti strokes like the "T" character would likely be hard to do at all with a fat fingertip

8. How's the device's toughness? What drop height can it withstand?
A. No idea. it looks better built than the Centro. Maybe on par with the Treo Pro?

9. Can you specify it use Wi-Fi instead of the costly telco way to connect to the Internet?
A Apparently yes, but I did not see the 'connections' menu displayed

10. How will developers be able to sell their apps? what will Palm's cut be?
A. No idea, far too early to tell. The app store info will be revealed much later. Just try to be patient. I have a feeling they're ognna have a pretty solid app store on this thing, honestly.

11. Can you use phone as modem for laptop?
A. Haven't gotten an answer any way but I heard a rumor that tethering/BT DUN was indeed disabled. I will try to get mor confirmation later from palm.

12. Can you use the microSD port to attach feature-expanding devices?
A. No there is no microSDHC slot and palm seems pretty intent on giving us more 'value" with 'free" internal storage without the "hassles" of having to run to the store to buy an extra memory card slot. palm's getting greedy and wanting us to upgrade devices with each refresh just to geet more storage. Again, EPIC FAIL on Palm's part, IMHO.

13. Is there a way to expand storage?
A: Buy a new device. that's how Apple does it and that's how Palm is now doing it. Remember, it's too much trouble to have to run out and buy a card to stick in your new phone!

Pilot 1000->Pilot 5000->PalmPilot Pro->IIIe->Vx->m505->T|T->T|T2->T|C->T|T3->T|T5->Zodiac 2->TX->Verizon Treo 700P->Verizon Treo 755p->?

RE: Palm Pre Features We'd Like to know about
SeldomVisitor @ 1/9/2009 11:32:20 AM # Q
>< ...8. How's the device's toughness? What drop height can it withstand?...
>
> A. No idea. it looks better built than the Centro. Maybe on par with the Treo Pro?

I suspect the question had to do with "what can it withstand while open?"...

RE: Palm Pre Features We'd Like to know about
palmato @ 1/9/2009 11:59:12 AM # Q
4. when will GSM phone come out?
No idea but my best guess would be early fall '09 at the soonest

Engadget reports that gsm devices will be available in Europe at about the same time as the sprint version, ie. first half 2009.


-------------
Hey Admin: Why do we have to keep two profiles?

Reply to this comment

iPhone Killer?

Gekko @ 1/8/2009 4:19:06 PM # Q

i don't think so.

RE: iPhone Killer?
scstraus2 @ 1/8/2009 5:31:42 PM # Q
If not a killer, it's at least the only other serious competitor on the market. For me it's definitely an iPhone killer. Real keyboard, quicker, copy paste, good camera, and honestly the interface looks better. I really like the cards metaphor for multitasking, and it does everything the iPhone does, but with real grownup PIM type functionality.

I love it.

I'm getting one.

Palm Pilot 5000->Palm Pilot Professional->Handspring Visor->Handspring Visor Prism->Handspring Visor Neo->Handspring Treo 180->Handspring Treo 270->Palm Treo 600->Tapwave Zodiac 2->Palm Treo 650->Palm Treo 680->...

Samsung i780!

Goodbye Palm

RE: iPhone Killer?
mikecane @ 1/8/2009 5:38:38 PM # Q
WinMob Killer, I think. I'll go that far.

Symbian Killer? Please. Symbian is a SUICIDE on its own.

They can run in this race against iPhone and Android, I think.

RE: iPhone Killer?
Gekko @ 1/8/2009 5:39:06 PM # Q

can Apple sue Palm over multi-touch? doesn't Apple have all kinds of patents on the iPhone including multi-touch?

RE: iPhone Killer?
mikecane @ 1/8/2009 5:50:54 PM # Q
Oh, Apple will probably sue, no doubt. Doesn't mean they'll win. I've seen prior art to Apple multitouch.

Apple sued MS over the GUI. And lost.

RE: iPhone Killer?
freakout @ 1/8/2009 7:52:09 PM # Q
The Pre has a real keyboard, it does copy-and-paste, it has a removable battery, it has non-crippled Bluetooth.

Screw the goddamn iPhone! I figured if Palm didn't deliver I'd have to jump ship later on this year. Now? I'm happy to wait for a GSM version of this...

RE: iPhone Killer?
mikecane @ 1/9/2009 6:51:06 AM # Q
>>>The Pre has a real keyboard

Have you tried it yet. It looks as small as the Centro. I didn't think much of that. There's a great big difference between "keyboard" and "enjoyable keyboard."

The G1 keyboard, for example, is flat crap. But by your "standard," hey, it's a keyboard!

RE: iPhone Killer?
CFreymarc @ 1/9/2009 6:00:18 PM # Q
There is prior art for multi-touch going back years. I'm surprised Apple got the patent but I haven't read their full claims. In the Xerox PARC days back in the early 90's when they were doing pen interface research, it was sometimes called "Anchor and Drag" or "Dual Pointer Interface" with demos on tablet computers of that era. Palm has a history of invalidating patents so we will see how big Steve Jobs ego is on this one.
Reply to this comment

Awful Names

Gekko @ 1/8/2009 4:21:05 PM # Q

Pre? WebOS?

Awful.

RE: Awful Names
mikecane @ 1/8/2009 5:49:10 PM # Q
CloudPhone and SkyOS both have a nice ring.

RE: Awful Names
lobotomic @ 1/9/2009 2:44:18 AM # Q
Awful indeed. Pré sounds like "Not Ready", but that is not the worst.

"WebOS", in Spanish, not only sounds exactly like "Eggs", which is bad enough, but also means "Testicles". And this is not a far-fetched relation like that (in)famous Chevy "No-Va" of old; this really sounds rude.

"This phone has webOS" would be "Este teléfono tiene webOS", which also works as "this phone's got balls". You cannot say this to your granny, or to a customer (especially to a female customer). Imagine if the name was "Opusy"?

BIG blunder.

RE: Awful Names
digman @ 1/9/2009 3:43:13 AM # Q
I like foleo, I like palm pre, but hope there are more types of palm phones.

the palm pre is a great smartphone.

RE: Awful Names
Gepeto- @ 1/9/2009 5:58:03 AM # Q
SkyOS might sound nice but there is already an OS called SkyOS.

I agree that Pré and WebOS sound retarded. Maybe they call it "pre" because the real stuff they'll released later is going to be based on that?

In any case it looks great, the OS Looks powerful enough to make a netbook based on it something interesting. I just hope that not ONLY Javascript will be supported.

RE: Awful Names
mikecane @ 1/9/2009 6:42:38 AM # Q
>>>SkyOS might sound nice but there is already an OS called SkyOS.

Eh. I didn't consult TESS before typing it. Sue me.

RE: Awful Names
DarthRepublican @ 1/9/2009 10:51:44 PM # Q

"WebOS", in Spanish, not only sounds exactly like "Eggs", which is bad enough, but also means "Testicles". And this is not a far-fetched relation like that (in)famous Chevy "No-Va" of old; this really sounds rude.

"This phone has webOS" would be "Este teléfono tiene webOS", which also works as "this phone's got balls". You cannot say this to your granny, or to a customer (especially to a female customer). Imagine if the name was "Opusy"?

BIG blunder.


Even bigger BS than the Nova crack (which at least is correct if you pronounce the two syllables separately and ignore the fact that in the Spanish language "nova" also exists as a single word and means exactly the same thing that it does in English). The Spanish word for eggs is actually "huevos" and it doesn't sound that much like the pronunciation of webOS unless you deliberately mispronounce it. (And even if webOS did sound like exactly like the Spanish colloquial slang for testicles, that would just give the OS a macho factor that would appeal to young males, not a bad demographic.)

Screw convergence
Palm III->Visor Deluxe->Visor Platinum->Visor Prism->Tungsten E->Palm LifeDrive->Palm TX
Visor Pro+VisorPhone->Treo 180g->Treo 270->Treo 600->Treo 680->T-Mobile G1
http://mind-grapes.blogspot.com/
RE: Awful Names
lobotomic @ 1/10/2009 12:32:16 PM # Q
Excuse me, DarthRepublican, for being a real spaniard and happening to know exactly how "huevos" is pronounced. It is not like "web-ou-es", OK, but EXACTLY like "webos". Salesmen will have to be taught to spell out the O-S and say "web-o-ese", but I doubt that will fly: "huevos" just jumps at your face.

DOS was never, ever, called "de-o-ese" over here, even less "dee-ou-ess", but just "dos" (like number two), and MS/DOS was always read "eme-ese-dos", so webOS will be "huevos", believe me. They are going to be the laughing stock of the spanish speaking world unless they think of something soon.

Never believed in that nova story, either; at least in Spain, "nova" does sound good. But this blunder is a lot more like what happened to the Mitsubishi Pajero, which here would have amounted to "Mitsubishi Wanker" and had to be renamed "Montero".

It just amazes me that they did not bother to check.

RE: Awful Names
SeldomVisitor @ 1/10/2009 12:41:18 PM # Q
> ...It just amazes me that they did not bother to check.

Well..you know...spanish is such a little-used language in The States, especially California...

Reply to this comment

Back in the game, but not a game changer

Foo Fighter @ 1/8/2009 5:37:53 PM # Q
Palm at last shows its hand, and it's not holding a royal flush. There can be no doubt that today's announcement FINALLY puts them back in the game and on the map, but based on what I'm seeing WebOS is simply Palm's take on the iPhone - even utilizing the same browser. And I see lots of red flags that spell trouble for Palm, starting with software .

First - It's a closed platform. Meaning you can say goodbye to any hope of seeing the same lavish apps that exist in the iPhone and Android ecosystems. Instead, WebOS relies on AJAX code enabling wed developers to build what amounts to Dashboard Widgets. Nice, but not NEARLY enough. I enjoy widgets as much as the next Mac user, but native applications they ain't! You can only do so much under that type of limited framework before you hit a virtual brick wall and the wheels begin falling off.

Second - and this one's a Duezie - Unless I missed a statement to the contrary WebOS apparently WON'T run Garnet era apps. That has little impact on me for I ditched this platform long ago, but the impact it will have on Palm users is staggering. Palm just pulled the rug out from under your platform, and its replacement will be every bit as alien to its users as that of competing platforms. This is NOT PalmOS, nor its successor. Unlike Apple who weened its userbase and developers off of the legacy MacOS to a new advanced platform (OSX), Palm is simply leaving everything behind. While that may be a great thing in the longrun, and in the fact the right move for Palm given the circumstances, the fact remains that WebOS is not the next version of PalmOS - just as Pre is NOT AN UPGRADE PATH for Centro and Treo users. You may just as well toss your current Palm in the trash and delete all those quaint little apps you've relied on over the years (and invested money in) by moving to another platform.

Third - There's the handset. It's nice, but not very inspiring. I'm willing to overlook that part - hell, it looks a lot nicer than the G1, I'll give it that. But it's not something that turn heads or lure people away from their current smartphone. Still, that's a minor quibble for now. The real problem is that Palm chose to lock the phone away in Sprint's walled garden. Choosing a CDMA network for the introduction of this ALL IMPORTANT new phone and platform was a bad move - an automatic loss in sales that would have come from a much larger GSM market with more carriers and an ever thriving market for unlocked SKUs.

So there you have it. I'm thrilled to see Palm once again back in the game, but WebOS doesn't return them to a leadership position and it's lacking in real innovation. It slowly closes the gap with Apple and Google, but not enough.


----
Web Designer,
Tech writer for weblogs inc. @ http://www.tuaw.com

RE: Back in the game, but not a game changer
Gekko @ 1/8/2009 5:42:55 PM # Q

doozy

RE: Back in the game, but not a game changer
Gekko @ 1/8/2009 5:44:19 PM # Q

yes but iphone dont have -

1. removable battery.
2. physical keyboard.

so there.

RE: Back in the game, but not a game changer
mikecane @ 1/8/2009 5:48:26 PM # Q
Geez, Foo, we must have been typing at the same time. I just posted about web apps and iPhone right below this post! Go see.

RE: Back in the game, but not a game changer
Foo Fighter @ 1/8/2009 6:08:16 PM # Q
doozy

No, I spelled it the correct way. It's Duezie..or Duesie. The word originated from the Duesenburg automobiles whose marketing slogan was "It's a Duesie!".

----
Web Designer,
Tech writer for weblogs inc. @ http://www.tuaw.com

RE: Back in the game, but not a game changer
Foo Fighter @ 1/8/2009 6:15:01 PM # Q
Geez, Foo, we must have been typing at the same time. I just posted about web apps and iPhone right below this post! Go see.

So I see. Looks like we're on the same page.

----
Web Designer,
Tech writer for weblogs inc. @ http://www.tuaw.com

RE: Back in the game, but not a game changer
Gekko @ 1/8/2009 6:21:48 PM # Q
RE: Back in the game, but not a game changer
Foo Fighter @ 1/8/2009 6:33:05 PM # Q
Mirriam-Webster is a white trash dictionary.

----
Web Designer,
Tech writer for weblogs inc. @ http://www.tuaw.com
RE: Back in the game, but not a game changer
Nycran @ 1/8/2009 6:34:00 PM # Q
"First - It's a closed platform. Meaning you can say goodbye to any hope of seeing the same lavish apps that exist in the iPhone and Android ecosystems. Instead, WebOS relies on AJAX code enabling wed developers to build what amounts to Dashboard Widgets. Nice, but not NEARLY enough. I enjoy widgets as much as the next Mac user, but native applications they ain't! You can only do so much under that type of limited framework before you hit a virtual brick wall and the wheels begin falling off."

I think that's incorrect. During the presentation they said that the apps that they showed today (i.e., the PIM apps etc) were built using this framework. I believe Palm have produced something here that is well beyond the widget-limited scope you're imagining.. the web SDK will allow native apps, because that's what the entire environment is (hence WebOS). My guess is that javascript calls will call native API's directly, like a scripting language. CSS / XHTML will be used for the presentation layer.

RE: Back in the game, but not a game changer
DrewT3 @ 1/8/2009 7:29:42 PM # Q
But what if the native API doesn't do what you would like? For example, what if you want to write a new video codec, or a Garnet emulator, or support for a new bluetooth protocol? These types of development were what made the Garnet platform so much better than what Palm delivered in 2002.

You can't do these kinds of things in an interpreted language with no access to the underlying hardware.

All the demo applications can be explained by powerful APIs that the Javascript is calling to do animation, or access contact information, etc. The problem starts when there is no API that does what you want.

RE: Back in the game, but not a game changer
freakout @ 1/8/2009 7:42:49 PM # Q
First - It's a closed platform. Meaning you can say goodbye to any hope of seeing the same lavish apps that exist in the iPhone and Android ecosystems.

Oh, rubbish. iPhone apps can't even access the PIM data, for heaven's sake. Let's wait and see what developers have to say once they've pored over the SDK, and once people have had the chance to give Palm a grilling. If it does turn out to be a completely closed platform I'll eat my hat.

But all that aside, the underlying framework is Linux - so I'd expect hacks galore anyway.

Third - There's the handset. It's nice, but not very inspiring. I'm willing to overlook that part - hell, it looks a lot nicer than the G1, I'll give it that. But it's not something that turn heads or lure people away from their current smartphone.

Says you. I think it looks sweet. Fat-ass Treo or dinky Centro, this ain't.

RE: Back in the game, but not a game changer
Foo Fighter @ 1/8/2009 7:43:29 PM # Q
the web SDK will allow native apps, because that's what the entire environment is (hence WebOS)

That's not what I'm hearing. Unless someone has a direct quote to the contrary, Colligan and Rubenstein both spelled out specifically that apps written for WebOS are done so using HTML/CSS/Javascript - ala widgets. I see no mention anywhere of a forthcoming SDK enable direct access to system code and native APIs.

----
Web Designer,
Tech writer for weblogs inc. @ http://www.tuaw.com

RE: Back in the game, but not a game changer
Nycran @ 1/8/2009 7:49:59 PM # Q
The problem is that you're assuming that using javascript precludes making direct API calls. I say Palm has included hooks into their implementation of javascript to make direct system API calls for data storage, telephony, PIM access, etc easily possible. I'll put money on it that you will be able to do much more than just write widgets using their HTML/CSS/Javascript platform.

RE: Back in the game, but not a game changer
DrewT3 @ 1/8/2009 7:54:21 PM # Q
Nycran, what happens when you want to do something that there is no API for? Like a new video codec or a Garnet emulator? You can't expect Javascript to run fast enough to decode video or emulate another processor architecure in real time.

RE: Back in the game, but not a game changer
freakout @ 1/8/2009 8:01:35 PM # Q
It's Linux, Drew. Betcha it'll be hacked to the back teeth within a few weeks of release to allow anything that Palm decide to forbid... question is, will they play the same game Apple did, of breaking everything unofficial which each and every software update?
RE: Back in the game, but not a game changer
mikecane @ 1/9/2009 6:49:04 AM # Q
This is an interesting conversation, but it still leaves me to believe there are still many, many unanswered questions.

Good point about iPhone web apps relying on an external cloud server. They did.

As to whether JS/HTML/AJAX is going to actually call down into the OS, I'd like to see some 3rd-party apps that prove that.

Let me say I'm VERY skeptical that the MP3 player they showed was based all on that! An MP3 player, of course, goes into the OS because it has to call up the files.

RE: Back in the game, but not a game changer
hotpaw4 @ 1/9/2009 9:44:16 AM # Q
Interesting that people here assume that a Javascript implementation has to be completely interpreted...

.

Reply to this comment

So isn't this like iPhone v1 'web apps'?

mikecane @ 1/8/2009 5:46:03 PM # Q
That's what everyone else is saying.

Someone tell me how this is different.

I also think the OS is still very unfinished. Did any of you notice they didn't show *any* phone functions? Jobs made a big deal of Merge Calls in the original iPhone intro. They didn't even show how to make a call or how to respond to one!

But they've done some nice work here.

1) I *love* the card metaphor and just flinging apps off the top to get rid of them
2) Card metaphor allows more than one email open at a time
3) Card metaphor is a great multitasking UI
4) Gesture Area off screen is clever, especially for web page scrolling
5) Notification ticker at bottom could turn into something

Do I think this is a "breakthrough level of innovation?" Not yet. It's a good advance against the iPhone.

I can't speak to it against Android because, really, that G1 is just so fugly and crappy-feely I can't take it seriously.

There are many, many unanswered questions here.

What's ironic, is that early on I told Palm to break compatibility with old apps and do something new. Now they have. But now I'm so addicted to my ginormous Memos, I wonder if this new wee Memo app supports that still?

I await more info as the days pass.

RE: So isn't this like iPhone v1 'web apps'?
DrewT3 @ 1/8/2009 7:38:58 PM # Q
This is different than iPhone v1 webapps. This is using custom javascript APIs and HTML 5 which will let the javascript directly access the features of the phone, such as the contacts or emails, etc.

The iPhone v1 webapps had to contact a remote server to get or save data. They didn't have access to the iPhone features like contacts or emails. The WebOS apps have access to the phone features and can do everything with the radio off.

You can think of it like Visual Basic on Windows - it is running as an interpreted language with access to whatever APIs Microsoft gives it. It starts to break down if you want to do something that hasn't been put into a VB function by Microsoft.

RE: So isn't this like iPhone v1 'web apps'?
freakout @ 1/8/2009 7:55:24 PM # Q
I also think the OS is still very unfinished. Did any of you notice they didn't show *any* phone functions? Jobs made a big deal of Merge Calls in the original iPhone intro. They didn't even show how to make a call or how to respond to one!

Meh, phone calls are hardly the most exciting part anyway. Presumably it'll be just like the Treo/Centro phone interface - which is pretty much what Apple ripped off for the iPhone anyway.

RE: So isn't this like iPhone v1 'web apps'?
mikecane @ 1/9/2009 6:45:48 AM # Q
>>>Meh, phone calls are hardly the most exciting part anyway.

Yeah, right. You get Dumbest Sentence In This Thread Award. It's a PHONE, stupid.

RE: So isn't this like iPhone v1 'web apps'?
freakout @ 1/9/2009 7:41:53 AM # Q
^^ Oh c'mon. What's there to see? You press a contact to dial them, or use the dial pad card we've seen in the galleries on Palm.com. There'll be a screen with speakerphone, hold, mute and conference buttons.

My only beef is the same as with the iPhone - no dedicated pickup/hangup keys, which could make hanging up the call while you're in another app a bit of a pain. Presumably there'll be some sort of gesture you can do that will achieve the same thing, though.

RE: So isn't this like iPhone v1 'web apps'?
mikecane @ 1/9/2009 8:10:01 AM # Q
This is where your prejudice trips you up. You dismiss the iPhone and so forget how revolutionary its Merge Call feature was. Does Pre have it? What in fact DOES Pre have for phone features?

RE: So isn't this like iPhone v1 'web apps'?
freakout @ 1/9/2009 8:13:34 AM # Q
Mike, the Treo had on-screen one-touch conference call buttons loooooooooooooooooooooooong before the iPhone appeared on the scene. It was as revolutionary as my big toe.
RE: So isn't this like iPhone v1 'web apps'?
mikecane @ 1/9/2009 8:16:33 AM # Q
Post a picture of that toe.

RE: So isn't this like iPhone v1 'web apps'?
pmjoe @ 1/9/2009 12:36:24 PM # Q
Yep, this sounds pretty much the same as iPhone 1.x where Jobs said the web was the way to develop for it. The only difference is that it has HTML5 capabilities like local storage that I think the iPhone lacked (and apparently more access to the device's features). I'll reserve judgement further till I can play with the SDK.

Worth noting that I have an iPhone and all the useful apps are NOT web-based, they're native apps.

It's 100% possible that this is much the same as the iPhone where the underlying OS is nowhere near ready to put in the hands of developers. Otherwise, I see a huge risk where there's really nothing to distinguish the device from any other that offers app support on top of a full featured web browser.

The only standout I see from Palm's developer page is some comment about webOS apps running at "native speed". Perhaps the SDK will include some means to compile apps into a native-like app package.

If the web apps share storage, it sounds like there might be ample opportunity for security issues.

Reply to this comment

So, game over for ACCESS & ALP?

mikecane @ 1/8/2009 6:24:23 PM # Q
Or are some of you actually still *wanting* that?

RE: So, game over for ACCESS & ALP?
Gekko @ 1/8/2009 6:28:59 PM # Q
RE: So, game over for ACCESS & ALP?
Nycran @ 1/8/2009 6:37:02 PM # Q
The game never really started for them.

Reply to this comment

is Palm Desktop toast?

Gekko @ 1/9/2009 6:21:26 AM # Q

i kind of liked it. i think i saw a sync button on the Pre cable?

RE: is Palm Desktop toast?
Gekko @ 1/10/2009 6:53:51 AM # Q

so no more syncing? i just update to the cloud?

"Okay, then if I'm not me, who the hell am I?"

RE: is Palm Desktop toast?
Gekko @ 1/10/2009 7:50:34 PM # Q

so if palm desktop is toast, what will you people use for desktop PIM? i hate outlook. i hate the web based solutions Gmail, yahoo mail, hotmail etc for Contacts/Calendar etc.

what the hell will you people use?

RE: is Palm Desktop toast?
freakout @ 1/10/2009 8:45:48 PM # Q
It's a good question. I hate Outlook too. My hope is that they didn't announce any kind of desktop sync because it's simply not ready yet. I think it's a bit bizarre to cut the desktop totally out of the loop, myself.
Reply to this comment

It DOES NOT do Flash after all!

mikecane @ 1/9/2009 8:19:00 AM # Q
CES 2009: Palm Pre to Support App Store, WebKit, Possibly Flash
http://www.gearlog.com/2009/01/ces_2009_palm_tre_to_support_s.php

>>>The WebKit-based Web browser supports streaming video in RTSP, H. 263 and H.264 formats, but doesn't support Flash ... yet. But I spoke to two Palm employees both of whom smirked when I mentioned Flash, which made me think they're talking to Adobe right now. The browser also doesn't have a name, though Palm will release specs soon for developers who want to make sure their sites work on the browser.

AHA! Dammit, I knew it! THAT's why there was no YouTube demo!

And my skepticism is also reinforced:

>>>Colligan said that apps for Pre were written in Javascript, HTML and CSS, which I found suspicious. Folks here at the lounge confirmed that there will be a software developers' kit to let developers access core Pre features, and that it will be called "Mojo." Just not yet. I did, though, talk to one of their early third-party developers, who said that everything he did before in Visual Studio he could do in Javascript on the Pre.

>>>Going into a little more detail on Mojo, Palm folks said they'll have a set of APIs to let Javascript programmers hit hardware features that aren't commonly touched in Javascript apps. Will you be able to do everything - such as write to the frame buffer? No, but you'll get access to all of the phone's databases, unlike on the iPhone. So if you wanted to, say, write a way to integrate MySpace into the contact book, that would be possible.

>>>Palm even said that a third party could write a Palm OS emulator for webOS, which tells me they must have some funky Javascript APIs indeed.

So, Palm is basically saying, hey, Garnet users, stuff it! Pray for a 3rd party to wank one out with JS.

RE: It DOES NOT do Flash after all!
Gekko @ 1/9/2009 8:20:40 AM # Q

relax. kinoma et all just isn't finished with the app yet. i didn't see an excel document either but im sure dataviz is on the project.

RE: It DOES NOT do Flash after all!
mikecane @ 1/9/2009 8:25:30 AM # Q
I wouldn't touch Kinoma if it was bleeding on the sidewalk. I wouldn't even call 911 for it.

RE: It DOES NOT do Flash after all!
freakout @ 1/9/2009 8:26:13 AM # Q
^^ They should be - one of the liveblogs showed a pic with all the third-party partners. I saw Dataviz and SplashData on there. Dammit, now I can't find the link...
RE: It DOES NOT do Flash after all!
mikecane @ 1/9/2009 8:28:06 AM # Q
Yeah, DataVis and Spashdata and even mobiTV. Big deal. I wouldn't touch D2G if it was bleeding on the sidewalk, either!! In fact, I'd look for a knife and give it a good lethal stab!

RE: It DOES NOT do Flash after all!
BaalthazaaR @ 1/9/2009 9:31:01 AM # Q
>>>>>Palm even said that a third party could write a Palm OS emulator for webOS, which tells me they must have some funky Javascript APIs indeed.

>>So, Palm is basically saying, hey, Garnet users, stuff it! Pray for a 3rd party to wank one out with JS.

If it is Linux underneath, maybe Lefty's gang can support GarnetVM on it.


RE: It DOES NOT do Flash after all!
mikecane @ 1/10/2009 9:30:28 AM # Q
>>>If it is Linux underneath, maybe Lefty's gang can support GarnetVM on it.

Oh that thought is sooooo funny!!!

Reply to this comment

Lefty?

Gekko @ 1/9/2009 8:55:11 AM # Q

hey Lefty - what do you think of all this?

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Where are all of the former Palm fans who defected?

Gekko @ 1/10/2009 10:21:17 AM # Q

will the Pre bring them back?

vampire boy? dr. opinion? kirvin? jonathan choo? et al

or is it too little, too late?

RE: Where are all of the former Palm fans who defected?
mikecane @ 1/10/2009 11:13:02 AM # Q
http://www.jeffkirvin.net/2009/01/palm-pre-is-close-but-no-cigar/
http://www.jeffkirvin.net/2009/01/pre-mature/

Interesting points, but I'm not certain it's all THAT late in the game.

And hell, Things Change all the time.

Let's see ... how's that GeoCities thing going? And all those portals, eh? And Wired mag too. Made the point, have I?

RE: Where are all of the former Palm fans who defected?
Gekko @ 1/10/2009 11:20:13 AM # Q

kirvin is wrong on pricing. as i posted earlier, iphone users pay a heavy apple tax every month via their special iphone pricing service charges. this apple tax helps additionally subsidize the iphone price. so that $199 iphone price is illusory.

http://www.palminfocenter.com/comments/9668/#148202

RE: Where are all of the former Palm fans who defected?
mikecane @ 1/10/2009 11:23:02 AM # Q
That might so, but people don't consider TCO.

RE: Where are all of the former Palm fans who defected?
Gekko @ 1/10/2009 11:24:17 AM # Q

and we wonder why people are broke.

RE: Where are all of the former Palm fans who defected?
freakout @ 1/10/2009 1:22:01 PM # Q
Kirvin's full of crap. His argument seems to be that Palm doesn't have their own walled-garden of proprietary online crap for people to hook in to, thus they'll never succeed.

Don't know about the rest of you, but I hate walled gardens. Palm are uniquely positioned to give us more choice than anyone else as to which services we choose to sync with, because they're not trying to lure people into a proprietary services ecosystem. Like Ed was stressing, "they do mobile" - they're not some corporate monolith like Microsoft.

Choice is where I'm at. Choice is what's most important. There's just too many different ways for people to store their info nowadays for any one propietary platform to cover all your needs.

RE: Where are all of the former Palm fans who defected?
hkklife @ 1/10/2009 1:53:10 PM # Q
I am very, very, very concerned about the Pre's battery life but I'll be patient and wait for reviews to come out of the production verssion.

I am, however, absolutely livid about no removable memory card slot, because no amount of OS trickery can fix that. 8GB IS nothing in 2009. 8gb is a pathetic insult to the fabulous media player & LCD Palm has on the Pre. Video looked SUPERB on it. But the 1-2 misery of no removable memory card and no Youtube/flash support just crippled YET ANOTHER Palm device for any kind of reasonable multimedia support. Will these guys EVER get it (unlikely)??

I just received 3x 2gb USB flash drives with press kits onboard for free. Flash memory costs NOTHING nowadays. I'd rather see 1gig onboard the Pre and an available microSDHC slot so I can toss a cheap 32gb microSDHC card in there in a few months' time. Why is is that RIM of all people can get the proper balance of onboard storage + external expansion capability?

Pilot 1000->Pilot 5000->PalmPilot Pro->IIIe->Vx->m505->T|T->T|T2->T|C->T|T3->T|T5->Zodiac 2->TX->Verizon Treo 700P->Verizon Treo 755p->?

RE: Where are all of the former Palm fans who defected?
Foo Fighter @ 1/10/2009 4:10:31 PM # Q
Palm are uniquely positioned to give us more choice than anyone else as to which services we choose to sync with,

No they aren't. You're free to plug any smartphone into any ecosystem you like. I can just as easily take my personal data out Apple's walled garden and plant it in Google's. And considering that Apple is outselling RIM and Windows Mobile in the US I'd say consumers aren't feeling "locked in".

As for the alleged "Apple tax" Mike and Gecko are referring to - that's AT&T's tax, not Apple's. AT&T is milking iPhone's popularity all they can by charging its users MORE than their standard smartphone data plan. If anything I feel pity for Apple - at a time when they seek to make iPhone cheaper and more mainstream, AT&T is turning it into premium product in hopes of making it into a cash cow. F&$K that!

Congress needs reform the entire wireless industry. Abolish exclusive contracts with device makers - user contracts - locked phones. Make the industry compete for our wallets rather than stealing them from our back pockets.

----
Web Designer,
Tech writer for weblogs inc. @ http://www.tuaw.com

RE: Where are all of the former Palm fans who defected?
Gekko @ 1/10/2009 4:34:15 PM # Q

at&t is just trying to finally recoup some of the revenue sharing kickbacks they had to pay to apple for the iphone over the last two years. the deal recently ended, but for the first 2 years, at&t was forced to kick back money to apple every month for every iphone user.

hey, they make a nice product and lots of people love it and will pay it. just not me.

http://www.engadget.com/2008/06/09/apples-lucrative-iphone-revenue-sharing-goes-away-replaced-wit/


RE: Where are all of the former Palm fans who defected?
freakout @ 1/10/2009 4:47:58 PM # Q
I can just as easily take my personal data out Apple's walled garden and plant it in Google's

Mmmm hmmmm. And will you then be able to integrate all those Google contacts with your Facebook, Yahoo, Outlook etc contacts? Will your iPhone stay in constant sync with all of them and keep them in one place without dupes? Does your iPhone do media sync with WMP, Winamp, or any of the other myriad media players out there?

No, no, and no.

RE: Where are all of the former Palm fans who defected?
mikecane @ 1/28/2009 5:46:58 AM # Q
>>>As for the alleged "Apple tax" Mike and Gecko are referring to

Whoa. I never, ever mention an "Apple tax." Premium prices, sure, but that's because of the label and rep. The *real* tax is the one from Microsoft!

Reply to this comment

Gmail grows up with offline e-mail access

Gekko @ 1/28/2009 4:19:33 AM # Q

January 27, 2009 4:00 PM PST
Gmail grows up with offline e-mail access
Posted by Stephen Shankland

Significantly increasing the utility and competitiveness of its Web-based e-mail service, Google is enabling an experimental ability to read, write, and search Gmail messages even while not connected to the network.

Google believes almost religiously in cloud computing, the idea that computer applications and data live on the Internet rather than on PCs. But there are times when the network is inaccessible, and generally Web-based applications like today's Gmail effectively seize up under those circumstances.

Offline sidesteps that problem, the classic example being a busy executive traveling on a plane. And offline Gmail access begins a new chapter for Google's ambition to appeal to business customers for services such as Google Apps, of which Gmail is a component.

"This is a feature we've heard loud and clear the enterprise wants," said Todd Jackson, Gmail's product manager.

http://news.cnet.com/8301-17939_109-10151096-2.html?tag=newsEditorsPicksArea.0

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