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Full version of QuickOffice HD released for TouchPad

Despite missing last week's self-imposed deadline by a few days, HP has finally come through with the highly-anticipated update for QuickOffice for TouchPad owners. HP's Jon Zilber has posted to the Official Palm Blog that an update was made available yesterday to add full document editing and creation capabilities for MS Word and Excel files.

Unfortunately, PowerPoint presentations remain read-only, but two out of three is certainly a huge improvement for frustrated WebOS users. The new version of QuickOffice HD is a free download in the App Catalog for TouchPad users and, as mentioned earlier this month, a paid version with editing capabilities is promised down the road for WebOS smartphones users.

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In other words...

Fake Jeff Hawkins @ 8/31/2011 7:19:32 AM # M Q
webOS is now at approximately version 0.95 beta. A couple more updates over the next month to address the speed issues and webOS might actually be ready to ship.

What are the odds that the tablets shipping over the next month or so will arrive with the updates already flashed to the devices (and possibly a processor clock speed of 1.5 GHz)?

Leo "Mr. Burns" Apotheker: "Mwahahahahah! It's all going according to plan!!!"

FJH

RE: In other words...
hkklife @ 8/31/2011 10:46:05 AM # Q
Even better would be a user-selectable "power profiles" feature where we could easily switch between, say, 1Ghz (battery saver), 1.2 (balanced) and 1.5 (maximum peformance).

Having that as a manufacturer-endorsed, factory-supported feature would be quite nice and differentiate it from the iPad and the Android devices that involve unauthorized rooting or the various WebOS patches that would likely frighten away most of the TP's newly-acquired firesale price audience.

Once again, delaying the TP launch by a month in order to launch the devices with 3.0.2 + the free 6-pack of apps + the full version of QuickOffice would have been a very, very good idea. Do you think if HP had done the above and priced the TP out of the gate at, say, $399 and $449, it would have fared better?
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The Ugly Truth about the tablet market EXPOSED
Fake Jeff Hawkins @ 8/31/2011 11:32:36 PM # Q
Do you think if HP had done the above and priced the TP out of the gate at, say, $399 and $449, it would have fared better?

Unknown OS; plasticky case; bulky form factor; slow navigation; no apps; no Apple logo instant hipster credibility? Just to save $100 instead of getting The Real Thing? No, I think it would only have sold if it either had IDENTICAL form factor to the iPad and was priced around $150 (30%). HP's naive (fresh outta MBA school?) deluded themselves into thinking people are so dumb that they will buy an unknown generic device instead of the BRAND NAME device that defined the product category just because they were priced the same. Motorola was even more foolish by pricing the Xoom higher than the price that the typical iPad sells for. The iPad is what consumers know and herd mentality means they like to stick with the familiar. (Today I actually apologized in advance to the person I'm giving a clearance TouchPad to, warning them that "It's not an iPad, but it's good for Internet surfing, so I hope you'll like it." I can justify $150 on a device that falls far short of the execution and ecosystem of iPad, but if the two devices were even remotely similar in price it's no contest. I would probably even buy an iPad 1 over a TouchPad if they sold for the same price.)

Might not be fair, but Apple actually earned its current advantage by being he first to create a decent non-Windows tablet with an easy to navigate UI, a large variety of easy to access apps and extremely effective marketing. Being first confers the advantage of inertia, but as HP's INSANE TouchPad giveaway shows, even a company as clever, meticulous and methodical as Apple can have literally years of planning destroyed overnight by some unexpected cutthroat business practices or an unanticipated "paradigm shift". Who would have in a million years expected a major deep-pocketed competitor to dump hundreds of thousands of tablets onto the market overnight at a loss of $200 per device? In retrospect, the dumping is a BRILLIANT tactic and is probably the ONLY way anyone could ever have hoped to damage Apple in the tablet sector in the next year. Amazon, Google and Microsoft each have the potential to be effective competitors and - if managed properly - beat Apple at the Tablet game (profits - not just total sales which as Android phones show is a meaningless stat).

To truly beat iPad a company will have to offer one (or ideally more) of the following:

1) SIGNIFICANTLY cheaper price (and $50 or $100 less isn't enough)

2) Unique features or form factor (like the ASUS Eee Pad Transformer or HP's (broken) promise of webOS on every HP desktop and laptop)

3) A better "ecosystem" (what Google and soon Amazon are trying to build)

4) Better build quality (like the BlackBerry PlayBook)

5) Ablity to run Microsoft desktop apps (what Windows 8 will offer)

Looking realistically at each of these opportunities:

1) Apple's economies of scale mean it's pretty much impossible to beat them on price with a similar quality device unless a manufacturer is willing to "pull an Apotheker" and sell at a loss (or near cost) in a desperate attempt to either gain marketshare or just to disrupt Apple's plans. Samsung has the capability to make the highest quality tablet possible at a price that could easily undercut Apple's current price points. Apple is rattling its sabres at Samsung right now to remind them that Samsung had better not get greedy and try to move in on Apple's turf. Apple "invented" the tablet market (well... not really) and they don't want to share the spoils of their labors with a lowly glorified parts assembler. And because Samsung foolishly failed to invest in its own OS/platform/ecosystem (e.g. they could have bought webOS before iOS and Android had gained too much momentum to be more easily stopped) there is no strategic advantage to Samsung dumping a ton of subsidized hardware onto the market. They are a hardware maker and have to sell hardware (components or finished product) at a profit to survive longterm.

No one except Microsoft (and to a lesser degree Google and Amazon) would likely see the longterm benefit of (and have the deep pockets required for) subsidizing the 10 million or so tablets that would likely be needed to create the critical mass of users and DEVELOPERS, DEVELOPERS, DEVELOPERS, DEVELOPERS, DEVELOPERS* required to stall and potentially overcome the iPad juggernaut. 10 million tablets subsidized at a rate of $100-200 apiece is a rather reasonable $1-2 billion investment that I can see Microsoft gladly making next year in an attempt to quickly and decisively launch its Windows 8 platform and ensure that it crushes iPad/iOS. This is the first high stakes battle Microsoft has waged since it lost the WinCE/PocketPC war. It is probably its most important battle since Internet Explorer CRUSHED Netscape. Do you remember the tricks Microsoft used to kill Netscape? Do you remember how they were penalized? Do you think Microsoft minded paying those penalties given what its dirty trick accomplished in the big scheme of things? iPad and iOS (and Android) are the new Netscapes that Microsoft needs to smother in their cribs before they grow big enough to grab Microsoft's cane and beat Billy Gates and "Sweaty" Steve Ballmer senseless. I expect that like with Xbox Microsort realizes that it needs to CONTROL the hardware that (at least some of) its new tablet OS devices ship with to showcase what its platform can do. Relying on third party hardware vendors is a risky business, as Google learned when Honeycomb's image was tarnished by a few sloppy vendors. First impressions are critical, and Microsoft cannot afford to ship unoptimized, slow, buggy tablets next year the way that HP did in July 2011 with the TouchPad. Did ANY of those online reviews that ripped into the TouchPad early in July get updated with the results of performance improvements seen with subsequent webOS OS updates? Or will all of those initial reviews remain forever a warning to comparison shoppers that they are better off sticking with a Brand Name iPad 2 if they want performance and quality. Of course, HP wasn't alone in MASSIVELY bungling corporate tablet shipping strategy - the decision to ship too early (and too expensive) also damaged Xoom and PlayBook fatally.

(*right Stevie B?)

2) Unique form factors are not a differentiator, since - as Samsung has shown repeatedly - any major device assembler can copy a successful design and have a clone on the market within a few months. Plus, there's only so many ways you can innovate in tablet design and Apple is cranking out offensive patents for many of the more creative packaging and interface ideas. Palm screwed up by not merging desktop PalmLinux and FoleoOS; Google screwed up by not merging Chrome and Android; HP screwed up by not shipping webOS on all of its desktops and laptops at the same time as - or even BEFORE - the TouchPad release; Microsoft will not screw up releasing Windows 8 for desktops and laptops and tablets since that is Windows 8's raison d'Ítre. The Windows of opportunity for a fresh new OS to use the rise of mobile (tablet + smartphone) computing as a way to significantly disrupt the Windows hegemony is rapidly closing. I'm actually shocked that so many major players seem to be doing everything in their power to allow Microsoft to continue to dominate how the world interacts with computers. Apple being a company skilled in seenin the big picture is going to catalyze its market growth by leveraging the massive user base of iOS and blending iOS into MacOS. But I suspect Steve Jobs is more content with maximizing profits by owning the lucrative high end of the market than he is with daring to take on Microsoft for World Domination. Then again, looking at Apple's exponential profit growth recently, Jobs might just have become emboldened enough to think he has a shot at taking a run at Apple. Foolhardy? Perhaps. And if Apple were ever to do that and fail again Microsoft sure as hell wouldn't save them from bankruptcy again...

3) The better ecosystem route would be a challenge given the lead everyone sat around and watched Apple race out to over the past few years. Funny how 10 years ago Palm had all of the pieces necessary to create what Apple enjoys now. They could even have created a PalmGear clone and left the heavy lifting up to Amazon, but instead Palm fiddled while Sunnyvale burned.

4) Better build quality by itself is not enough of a differentiator to matter for those hoping to dethrone Apple, especially since Apple already builds some of the best quality or most aesthetically pleasing hardware around. This comparison between Apple's and HP's decision making in the build of their respective tablets is telling and shows how out of touch Apple's competitors have been:
http://www.isuppli.com/Teardowns/News/Pages/HP-TouchPad-Carries-$318-Bill-of-Materials.aspx
Samsung out-Appled Apple with the Galaxy Tab 10.1, but it's saddled with a horrible UI and legal headaches. Sony and Fujitsu are the only others I can see releasing tablets with better build quality than Apple. Sony made the mistake of blindly jumping into bed with Google's STD-infested Android. The sequelae of Sony-san's time spent with the herpetic Android will wipe the smile off Sony's shiny new Tablet S and Tablet P offerings The Morning After:

http://tinyurl.com/424e9sm *

(*ignore the fact that the preceding link was penned by a pathetic lightweight hipster.)

PlayBook offered somewhat better hardware (in my opinion) than iPad, but the screen is smaller and Joe Sixpack isn't likely going to pay the same price as an iPad for SMALLER screen. Again, iPad has managed to define the pricing structure for the entire tablet category. Pity, since the PlayBook as a nicely designed package that has so far been crippled by software that STILL isn't ready for prime time. Had the PlayBook been shipped at $400 I might have bought one and been willing to give RIM the benefit of the doubt. I think QNX has a lot of potential, though I still believe trusting Adobe Air was a huge mistake. Had RIM included a stable method of running Android apps from Day 1 they could have bought themselves some time as they got their own OS sorted out. I'll be waiting for the PlayBook on clearance in a few weeks and will gladly give away my other 2 TouchPads if RIM pulls the trigger on the firesale.

5) Finally, only Microsoft will have the ability to run Real Microsoft Windows desktop apps on a tablet (when Windows 8 will ship). I suspect that fact alone will guarantee that Microsoft dominates this market quickly, unless Redmond makes some Palm-sized blunders on execution. Not likely given how much of Microsoft's future is riding on the success of Windows 8. If Google has Android sued and fragmented out of relevance; HP fails to sell webOS to Samsung or reanimate it under a Todd Bradley-led PC spin-off; QNX implodes due to show stopping development hurdles; then Apple may win first runner up by default

- Fake Jeff Hawkins
(IBM and Lenovo Tablet PC user, grudging iPhone 4 admirer (data plan only!), possible unlocked Veer purchaser (if available again for $50)

Correction
Fake Jeff Hawkins @ 9/1/2011 1:29:51 AM # M Q
Unknown OS; plasticky case; bulky form factor; slow navigation; no apps; no Apple logo instant hipster credibility? Just to save $100 instead of getting The Real Thing? No, I think it would only have sold if it either had IDENTICAL form factor to the iPad and was priced around $150 (30%) LESS THAN iPad or had MUCH better features and was priced around $50-100 (10-20%) less than iPad.
RE: In other words...
hkklife @ 9/1/2011 11:57:45 AM # Q
Let's just say that HP had hypothetically launched the Touchpad on July 1st but with the 3.0.2 update pre-installed and the price at $350 for 16GB and $450 (at most) for 32GB.

My review score of 5.5/10 for the $599 3.0.0 32GB TouchPad would have been, all other things equal, a 7 or MAYBE a 7.5 at that level of pricing. I would have still had issues with the plasticky build quality, size/weight, lack of a rear camera, lack of apps, lack of performance, no ecosystem, slow web browser etc.

As consumers continue to show, they don't care (much) about specs or ports on tablets, since the Xoom, Toshiba Thrive et al have all failed to set the market on fire (for various reasons). So that leaves competing on price and competing on style/sleekness/ecosystem. Apple has #2 wrapped up tight, so that leaves #1. The Nook Color has been a smashing success at the $250 pricepoint, which nicely prognosticated the interest in HP's closeout TouchPads.

Lenovo just showed a $200 7" Gingerbread tablet today at IFA. Nothing exciting, but it's got two memory card slots (1 a fullsize SDHC), 2 cameras, 8GB of internal storage, a 1Ghz single core CPU and uses microUSB. Definitely a Nook-color style device for 2011. It's ain't spectacular but you can be assured of oodles of apps and a ton of interest from the user community. Amazon is likely going to playing around at the $299 pricepoint with their tablet but I suspect it will lack the full Google Experience apps (Gmail, Maps, Android Market) which will basically neuter is and make it equivalent to a fancy Viewsonic G-Tablet. Having the full set of Google apps is CRITICAL for any Android device and Amazon's market is nowhere near strong enough to make up for the absence of a native Gmail client, turn by turn free map, or the full Google market.

Long story short, no one is going to challenge Apple's position anytime soon and RIM and the various Android vendors will be left fighting over the scraps of the sub-$300 tablet market.

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RE: In other words...
jca666us @ 9/1/2011 7:45:03 PM # Q
People are only buying the touchpad because - at $99 it's a throwaway purchase.

if it's slow, cheap build quality, no apps, crap ecosystem, it doesn't matter because once they tire of it, or it breaks, in the trash it goes.

Might not be fair, but Apple actually earned its current advantage by being he first to create a decent non-Windows tablet with an easy to navigate UI, a large variety of easy to access apps and extremely effective marketing.

Why not fair? To be correct, apple was the first to create a decent tablet. Previous windows tablets sucked, poor battery life, and were bulky.


HP's INSANE TouchPad giveaway shows, even a company as clever, meticulous and methodical as Apple can have literally years of planning destroyed overnight by some unexpected cutthroat business practices or an unanticipated "paradigm shift".

How is apple being harmed by this? If someone buys a touchpad, who really wanted an ipad, I guarantee a few days with the touchpad, they'll be begging for an ipad.

Touchpad's market is primarily non-apple, non-ipad users. If anything, touchpad's putting a dent into the already diminished sales of android and playbook tablets.

Apple's looking to sell 20 million ipads this holiday season - please explain how HP dumping a million (if that many) touchpads negatively impacts apple?

The Touchpad is an advertisement for purchasing the ipad.

In retrospect, the dumping is a BRILLIANT tactic

I agree; HP's tactic BRILLIANTLY illustrates how stupid Leo Apotheker is!

To truly beat iPad a company will have to offer one (or ideally more) of the following:

1) SIGNIFICANTLY cheaper price (and $50 or $100 less isn't enough)

Impossible as no one can match Apple's economies of scale.

2) Unique features or form factor (like the ASUS Eee Pad Transformer or HP's (broken) promise of webOS on every HP desktop and laptop)

Disagree - i'd like to see a tablet that works AS WELL as the ipad at basic functions, before tackling unique features. That's what no one is able to do.

3) A better "ecosystem" (what Google and soon Amazon are trying to build)

Tough to do, as Apple's been building their ecosystem for over ten years. Google and Amazon are playing catchup - and Apple's not standing still.

4) Better build quality (like the BlackBerry PlayBook)
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA Playbook has better build quality then the touchpad, but the ipad has set the standard for build quality.

5) Ablity to run Microsoft desktop apps (what Windows 8 will offer)
Microsoft's trying to shoehorn everything into windows 8, calling it a "no compromises" design.

Yet everything about windows 8 is a compromise towards backwards compatibility with legacy software.

RE: In other words...
Fake Jeff Hawkins @ 9/1/2011 10:58:34 PM # Q
Let's just say that HP had hypothetically launched the Touchpad on July 1st but with the 3.0.2 update pre-installed and the price at $350 for 16GB and $450 (at most) for 32GB.

My review score of 5.5/10 for the $599 3.0.0 32GB TouchPad would have been, all other things equal, a 7 or MAYBE a 7.5 at that level of pricing. I would have still had issues with the plasticky build quality, size/weight, lack of a rear camera, lack of apps, lack of performance, no ecosystem, slow web browser etc.

At least at the $350 price range ($150 less than equivalent iPad) some consumers would have given the TouchPad a second glance. Problem is that the build quality, svelte design and Apple name recognition would make it hard to go with a $350 current-design TouchPad over an iPad 2. For HP - with its MASSIVE resources - to have released its first webOS tablet on such crappy hardware is unbelievably idiotic. I truly cannot fathom how anyone could have green lighted the TouchPad design/form factor if they were serious about competing with iPad. Whoever approved the TouchPad design was acting like they wanted webOS to FAIL quickly and spectacularly.

As consumers continue to show, they don't care (much) about specs or ports on tablets, since the Xoom, Toshiba Thrive et al have all failed to set the market on fire (for various reasons). So that leaves competing on price and competing on style/sleekness/ecosystem. Apple has #2 wrapped up tight, so that leaves #1. The Nook Color has been a smashing success at the $250 pricepoint, which nicely prognosticated the interest in HP's closeout TouchPads.

This begs the question: "What features/attributes are important in selling a tablet?"

I think that in this immature tablet market the most important things right now are:

1) Name recognition (Apple; later perhaps Microsoft)
2) Price
3) First impression (a combination of build quality, feel in the hand and snappiness of UI. I believe tablets are often an impulse buy and the decision on which non-iPad tablet to get is made after a brief hands-on in a store, which favors a snappy, well made device.

Apps and the concept of "The Long Tail" may matter to geeks, but geeks represent a tiny portion of the market. As has been the case with the old PalmOS Treo and Centro, PocketPC, Android, BlackBerry OS and even iOS, Joe Sixpack is not extremely concerned about loading up on apps. In many cases the stock apps (especially if well implemented) will keep users happy for a LONG time.

I disagree with your claim that Apple has "style/sleekness/ecosystem... wrapped up tight". Samsung's Galaxy Tab 10.1 is probably better built than iPad 2. The new Sony wedge tablet looks like nice hardware. In just 2 years and despite very poor management from Google, Android has quickly evolved into a relatively robust ecosystem (expect Googe to start playing sherrif in this "Wild West" ecosystem in an attempt to help attract more timid settlers to its town). Amazon already has the infrastructure, experience, captive audience, and content to create a turnkey legitimate challenger almost overnight. Unlike you I would not be surprised to see the tablet/mobile device pecking order change suddenly over the next year.

Nook Color's day in the sun is likely over. It had a year to itself as the only semi-decent ultra-cheap Android tablet and became the darling of the Android Geek Hackers. But Android Geek Hackers are a fickle group and even cheaper, better hardware is coming from mainstream manufacturers. Tablets are about to become commoditized, so no one is going to make money on the low end, since it will be impossible to compete with the millions of lead paint covered, formaldehyde leaking Made In China Blue Light Specials that will soon be flooding the market. To compete and WIN in 2012 you will need the whole package (OS/hardware/content). Companies like Sony, Samsung, Lenovo, HP, etc. don't control enough of their respective infrastructures to survive in the tablet world long term. Amazon and Google (assuming lawsuits don't kill Android) have the control needed. If Android lawsuits stick, Amazon would be wise to fork Android and take development in-house. RIM also has all of the pieces but has taken far too much time getting its QNX OS and marketplace developed into a legitimate coherent challenger. Ultimately though, Microsoft should not lose this battle unless they actually try to fail.

Lenovo just showed a $200 7" Gingerbread tablet today at IFA. Nothing exciting, but it's got two memory card slots (1 a fullsize SDHC), 2 cameras, 8GB of internal storage, a 1Ghz single core CPU and uses microUSB. Definitely a Nook-color style device for 2011. It's ain't spectacular but you can be assured of oodles of apps and a ton of interest from the user community. Amazon is likely going to playing around at the $299 pricepoint with their tablet but I suspect it will lack the full Google Experience apps (Gmail, Maps, Android Market) which will basically neuter is and make it equivalent to a fancy Viewsonic G-Tablet. Having the full set of Google apps is CRITICAL for any Android device and Amazon's market is nowhere near strong enough to make up for the absence of a native Gmail client, turn by turn free map, or the full Google market.

Ahhhhh... the beginnings of commoditization. I love the smell of napalm in the morning. Lenovo et. al. don't have much future as purely tablet hardware vendors. As withe Android phones, another device will soon be popping up from the competition every week. And they'll all look the same and be priced within $50 of each other. Differentiation will be impossible.

I don't think Amazon needs Google's apps. They have a few things far more important: a huge, frequently-returning captive audience that trusts them; name recognition; content ; and delivery infrastructure/knowhow.

Long story short, no one is going to challenge Apple's position anytime soon and RIM and the various Android vendors will be left fighting over the scraps of the sub-$300 tablet market.

I disagree. This market is very immature and susceptible to rapid changes. Remember how quickly the Berlin Wall came down? What if on October 31, 2011 Amazon introduced a high res screened 10 inch, iPad-quality "Amazon Tablet" for $199 with optional $20/month Sprint 4G data, access to music, movies, apps, books, magazines, textbooks, streaming content (a-la-Netflix and Hulu)? Who would buy any of the tablets currently in Best Buy, Staples, etc.? Why bother when with "One Click" you can order the Amazon Tablet that comes preconfigured to so easily access all the CONTENT you could ever desire? Almost overnight all other Android tablets and non-Apple competing tablet OSes would be DEAD. Even Apple could be outflanked by such a device if Apple fails to organize access to more content in a way that it is always never more than just 1 or 2 clicks away. Want to watch a movie on your tablet? Search the store and then press "Play". Want to watch it on your TV? Press "Send to TV". Want a foreign paper or TV show? Same instant access to data. Content is King. And last time I checked, Amazon had access to a little bit of content...

Another iPad vanquishing scenario: July 1, 2012 Microsoft introduces the Xpad, capable of running all Windows apps; built in remote desktop access software; class-leading hardware specs; sold to all students in the country AT COST + $50; bundled with Windows 8 desktop sales; bundled with new vehicle sales...

The shakeout in the tablet/mobile device market is going to be UGLY. I can see some big names like Sony and RIM going down for the count quickly.

- Fake Jeff Hawkins
(Visionary, Brain Guy, Foleo Father)

RE: In other words...
jca666us @ 9/2/2011 2:25:21 PM # Q
FJH,

Two things:

1. Amazon won't be able to create a $199 color kindle - forget margins, they'd be selling at a sizable loss.

Amazon is in the business to make money, so I'd expect the cheapest we'd see a color kindle would be $399.

if Apple fails to organize access to more content in a way that it is always never more than just 1 or 2 clicks away. Want to watch a movie on your tablet? Search the store and then press "Play". Want to watch it on your TV? Press "Send to TV". Want a foreign paper or TV show? Same instant access to data. Content is King. And last time I checked, Amazon had access to a little bit of content...

Proof you've never used an ipad - the ipad has content organized that is never more than one or two touch gestures away.

Searching the app store, watching films or tv shows on my television - already easy.

Amazon won't really be able to improve upon the perfection built into the ipad - the best they can hope for is to copy it and leverage their ecosystem.

RE: In other words...
hkklife @ 9/2/2011 6:30:40 PM # Q
Hmmm....well, the Asus EEE Pad Transformer launched at a spectacular $399.99 MSRP and that had a Tegra 2, two cameras, microSDHC slot, IPS screen, and the optional keyboard dock. And Asus knows plenty about selling quality hardware that's priced lowe than most of the competition but still with enough margins to be profitable. I had both BB & OD sales clerks tell me recently that the Transformer is consistently their best-selling tablet and they are regularly going out of stock.

A comparably spec'd 7" Acer Honeycomb tablet is now going for $329 and there was a $50 rebate on top of that from Wal-Mart recently (maybe still going). The new 7-inch Lenovo Gingerbread tablet is $199.

I see no reason why Amazon wouldn't be able to sell, say, a 7" color dual-core Kindle utilizing similar Samsung-built hardware for a moderately-subsidized $199 or so (ie the magical impulse buy pricepoint). Or, I could see them doing something brilliant like offering it iniitally to Amazon Prime subscribers for $199 and "everyone else" getting it for $250. They'd sell a s___load of $80 Prime memberships right off the bat just so people could "save" $50.

If B&N could do $250 with the Nook Color a year ago, Amazon can probably justify better hardware a year later and justify the heavier subsidization by selling oodles of content and apps from their own app store.
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RE: In other words...
jca666us @ 9/3/2011 5:55:58 AM # Q
Just read Amazon's planning on selling a 7" color kindle w/ wifi for $249 - a nook competitor.

A 7" screen is a bit small though...

Do you EVER get tired of being WRONG? Seriously.
Fake Jeff Hawkins @ 9/3/2011 1:25:40 PM # Q

Yet everything about windows 8 is a compromise towards backwards compatibility with legacy software.

I guess if it was up to and your FUD-spreading, cheek-spreading Troll Girlfriend, Adama then Microsoft should just abandon all of its legacy users, right? That strategy worked out quite nicely for Palm, didn't it? Oh wait...


RE: In other words...
jca666us @ 9/2/2011 2:25:21 PM #

FJH,
Two things:
1. Amazon won't be able to create a $199 color kindle - forget margins, they'd be selling at a sizable loss.
Amazon is in the business to make money, so I'd expect the cheapest we'd see a color kindle would be $399.

Then...

RE: In other words...
jca666us @ 9/3/2011 5:55:58 AM #

Just read Amazon's planning on selling a 7" color kindle w/ wifi for $249 - a nook competitor.
A 7" screen is a bit small though...

Stay in school, kiddo.


Fake Jeff Hawkins


RE: In other words...
jca666us @ 9/4/2011 3:01:22 AM # Q
Peanut head aka FJH

I guess if it was up to and your FUD-spreading, cheek-spreading Troll Girlfriend, Adama then Microsoft should just abandon all of its legacy users, right? That strategy worked out quite nicely for Palm, didn't it? Oh wait...

Here's the thing - if Microsoft thought the metro interface was all that, they'd go all in with it - the way apple has with iOS.

Nothing says microsoft has to abandon legacy users, but they need to look at the use cases of windows users wanting to use a tablet device.

Most people have laptop/desktop machines to run legacy s/w - there's no value added saddling tablet users with windows.

Regarding the amazon tablet:

In the original discussion, I was talking about a 9" - 10" tablet device - saying Amazon would never sell one for less than $399.

You can't compare a 7" device with a 9.7" iPad - apples and oranges.

Since we already have a $250 b&n color nook, amazon isn't getting aggressive on pricing because UNLIKE HP - they're in the business to make money.


Get a clue, Buddy.
Fake Jeff Hawkins @ 9/4/2011 5:02:31 PM # Q
Here's the thing - if Microsoft thought the metro interface was all that, they'd go all in with it - the way apple has with iOS.

Nothing says microsoft has to abandon legacy users, but they need to look at the use cases of windows users wanting to use a tablet device.

Most people have laptop/desktop machines to run legacy s/w - there's no value added saddling tablet users with windows.

Regarding the amazon tablet:

In the original discussion, I was talking about a 9" - 10" tablet device - saying Amazon would never sell one for less than $399.

You can't compare a 7" device with a 9.7" iPad - apples and oranges.

Since we already have a $250 b&n color nook, amazon isn't getting aggressive on pricing because UNLIKE HP - they're in the business to make money.

Keep moving the goalposts, Trollboy.

Windows 8 is simply Windows able to run on the ARM hardware that most tablets run on. Microsoft finally realized that ARM was the future of mobile and had to make the switch, otherwise they would get left behind. Windows 8 can be configured to run the traditional Windows UI that's been around for over 15 years, but on a true tablet device can run with a tablet-oriented UI. You aren't "saddled" with anything. If Microsoft were dumb enough to change to only a new UI they would have destroyed their business - users would revolt en masse. The Windows 95/98/XP/7 UI works quite well on a desktop or laptop, is familiar to hundreds of millions of users and dominates the market. You don't mess with success. Tablet PC on the other hand has been a complete failure (used only by a few people [comme moi, mon enfant]) and THAT is what Windows 8 will fix. The Metro-type UI will be used for slate devices that are touchscreen (finger and stylus) driven. I doubt many laptop and desktop users will be choosing the new UI because the traditional UI simply is much more efficient for mouse/keyboard driven computing. Furthermore, legacy apps are not optimized for the new UI and I suspect many will not be updated any time soon.

Regarding Amazon, their 7 inch tablet was supposed to have been out already but was delayed 3 months. The 10 inch tablet was supposed to have been released in November, but now looks to be delayed until around February, 2012. Amazon selling the 7 inch tab for a profitable $250 is actually a mistake. They have a narrow window of opportunity to get users onto (and invested in) their platform and should be more concerned with locking up user base a-la-Apple rather than maximizing per-device profit a-la-HP or a-la-RIM. They will likely slash the tablet price quickly or - as hkklife suggested - make it a lot cheaper for people who sign up for their Amazon Prime ploy.

I realize you're a noob and don't have a clue what's going on in the industry, but every time you run your fetid mouth around here you sound like an idiot. Reading is fundamental. Edumacate yourself.

Fake Jeff Hawkins

RE: In other words...
jca666us @ 9/4/2011 5:47:02 PM # Q
Yo, Fake IT Professional:


Windows 8 is simply Windows able to run on the ARM hardware that most tablets run on. Microsoft finally realized that ARM was the future of mobile and had to make the switch, otherwise they would get left behind.

Microsoft is already being left behind they're simply copying Apple (yet again).

Windows 8 can be configured to run the traditional Windows UI that's been around for over 15 years, but on a true tablet device can run with a tablet-oriented UI.

It can, however have you seen the demos which shows the nice metro interface, and in the demo, an excel document is opened?

What happens next?

A touch enabled version of excel opens...NO instead the old crappy excel we all know and hate opens. On touch-enabled devices this is a mistake, but easier for microsoft then creating a touch-enabled version of excel.

You aren't "saddled" with anything.

Read above...you're saddled with it.

If Microsoft were dumb enough to change to only a new UI they would have destroyed their business - users would revolt en masse.

Users are already revolting - Apple has sold at least 60 million iPads - and we continually keep hearing about the post-PC era.

There's nothing that says Microsoft couldn't have created a "touch" version of windows 8, and still kept the standard windows interface available for laptop/desktop users. Instead everything's getting cobbled together.

The Windows 95/98/XP/7 UI works quite well on a desktop or laptop, is familiar to hundreds of millions of users and dominates the market. You don't mess with success.

It's that kind of thinking that's causing HP to exit the consumer marketplace.

Tablet PC on the other hand has been a complete failure (used only by a few people [comme moi, mon enfant]) and THAT is what Windows 8 will fix.

That is what Windows 8 *will* *intend* to fix - however as we've seen from all of the tablet contenders that have been released this year, features alone - don't make a difference. Next year, even the much vaunted "windows compatibility" won't make a difference.

Since we're talking about mobile devices, code optimization will be critical and so is ecosystem. Features such as battery life, performance/usability, and application/book/music/movie availability are the crucial keys to the iPad's success.

I doubt there are many tablet users that want to run "Prince of Persia" in compatibility mode. lmmfao!

The Metro-type UI will be used for slate devices that are touchscreen (finger and stylus) driven. I doubt many laptop and desktop users will be choosing the new UI because the traditional UI simply is much more efficient for mouse/keyboard driven computing. Furthermore, legacy apps are not optimized for the new UI and I suspect many will not be updated any time soon.

Right, so if legacy apps. won't be optimized for the new UI, please explain why including legacy support is such a good thing. It's not.

Regarding Amazon, their 7 inch tablet was supposed to have been out already but was delayed 3 months. The 10 inch tablet was supposed to have been released in November, but now looks to be delayed until around February, 2012.

Depends - I've been reading that the 10" color kindle has been delayed indefinitely. Guess they want to see if the 7" sells.

Amazon selling the 7 inch tab for a profitable $250 is actually a mistake. They have a narrow window of opportunity to get users onto (and invested in) their platform and should be more concerned with locking up user base a-la-Apple rather than maximizing per-device profit a-la-HP or a-la-RIM.

Maximizing per device profit ala HP?? BWAHAHAHAHAHA - those $99 fire sales are really adding to HP's bottom line!!!!!

Amazon selling the color kindle for $250 sounds about right - considering the nook sells for the same. At least it shows that Amazon has confidence in their ecosystem and is looking to actually turn a profit (unlike HP).

They will likely slash the tablet price quickly or - as hkklife suggested - make it a lot cheaper for people who sign up for their Amazon Prime ploy.

I doubt they'd do that until after the holidays. Sucker people into purchasing it at full retail then (when sales are slower) throw out incentives. It's the way most sound businesses work.

No need to be insulting, but you keep sounding like a moron

RE: In other words...
AdamaDBrown @ 9/5/2011 1:13:33 PM # Q
Desktop apps on a mobile device really aren't much of a draw. Microsoft was already taught this lesson once when they started emphasizing tablet PCs, but they don't seem to have learned it well.

The inherent problem is that for 99.9% of applications people will put tablets to--web browsing, reading, video, playing games, Office documents, etcetera--there are already native apps for iPad and Android. Native apps which are faster, easier to use, and just as efficient as trying to cram an entire desktop platform into a tablet in order to run the "old" version of Excel.

The "right" approach to mobile platform building is the one that, ironically, Microsoft dumped when they killed Windows Mobile, and which Google and Apple now pursue: share a basic infrastructure and language with a desktop platform to make the transition easier for developers, and cover the whole thing with a clear and clean interface designed for mobile devices. Microsoft never quite got the latter right, but they could have beaten both Apple and Google to the punch if they'd been a little smarter.

RE: In other words...
jca666us @ 9/5/2011 2:00:58 PM # M Q
Adama,

Looks like Ballmer's pride has gotten in the way of producing a proper tablet device.

All of this talk of "post PC" devices has Microsoft scared, so they're going out of their way (with Windows 8) to demonstrate that a tablet is nothing more then a PC.

Conservative strategy.

RE: In other words...
Fake Jeff Hawkins @ 9/5/2011 3:01:45 PM # M Q
jca666us and Ms. Brown are such a cute couple. You two should get a room...

The attraction of a Windows 8 tablet is the simplicity of consolidating on a single familiar OS. Why invest in a new ecosystem when "Comfortable shoes" OS 8 arrives? The true app needs on a tablet are minimal (browser, ebook reader, word processor, email, social media, etc.). Microsoft will have all that covered with tablet-optimized apps. Add a keyboard case, switch back to the Traditional Windows UI and you have a regular Windows Laptop ready to do Real Work. No need for a second non-Windows device. The future is about CONSOLIDATION. 3.5 - 4.5 inch smartphone (whatever OS) + 10 inch Windows 8 tablet with keyboard case. Microsoft just needs to keep Android and iOS tablet user base low until it can get Windows 8 to market. Who's going to stop them? CrunchPad? LifeDrive? Foleo? Maemo? Symbian? MeeGo?

FJH

RE: In other words...
jca666us @ 9/5/2011 3:27:22 PM # M Q
Sounds good in theory FJH, but one thing you appear to have neglected.

Remember we're talking about tablets - mobile computing.

All of this software will need pretty high powered hardware - and a powerful enough battery - to keep this running.

Even with the most optimistic timeframes, we can expect to see quad core cpu's sometime in 2012 - 2013 - will they be enough to run microsoft's latest bloat ware?

It's anyone's guess - however we know that having a mobile-optimized code base provides better performance, lower power consumption, and better battery life - which leads to a greater degree of mobility.

The days of a tablet with 2 hours of battery life are long gone.


RE: In other words...
Fake Jeff Hawkins @ 9/5/2011 7:05:53 PM # Q
Sounds good in theory FJH, but one thing you appear to have neglected.

Remember we're talking about tablets - mobile computing.

All of this software will need pretty high powered hardware - and a powerful enough battery - to keep this running.

Even with the most optimistic timeframes, we can expect to see quad core cpu's sometime in 2012 - 2013 - will they be enough to run microsoft's latest bloat ware?

It's anyone's guess - however we know that having a mobile-optimized code base provides better performance, lower power consumption, and better battery life - which leads to a greater degree of mobility.

The days of a tablet with 2 hours of battery life are long gone.

1.5 - 2 GHz ARM processors are both powerful and efficient. Windows 8 will be here in a bit less than a year. Do you REALLY think it won't run well on the hardware that will be in use by summer 2012?

Expect 4 hour battery life with Real Windows apps, 10 hour battery life with tablet optimized apps. Keyboard cases containing supplemental battery. All straightforward.

FJH

RE: In other words...
jca666us @ 9/5/2011 7:35:54 PM # Q
1.5 - 2 GHz ARM processors are both powerful and efficient. Windows 8 will be here in a bit less than a year. Do you REALLY think it won't run well on the hardware that will be in use by summer 2012?

I would hope Microsoft learns from the Touchpad fiasco - and ensures that the user experience isn't subpar.

Knowing Microsoft, it's 50/50 odds.

Expect 4 hour battery life with Real Windows apps, 10 hour battery life with tablet optimized apps. Keyboard cases containing supplemental battery.

If that's the case, then expect this thing to bomb when it arrives.

All straightforward.

and lame. I hope Microsoft can do better, but the more I hear of Windows 8 reminds me of OS/2.

RE: In other words...
gmayhak @ 9/5/2011 7:47:09 PM # Q
Keep trying FJH,

Bottom line is...
PC / Microsoft = an outdated windows computer, one of the slowest dogs in the industry.
Mac / Apple = an OSx computer that you progress to when you tire of waiting for your pc to respond.
iPad / Apple = a mobile machine based on OSx that performs exactly the way a mobile machine should.

Everything else is scraps & bottom feeders.

But keep sticking up for the losers. I too hate to see PIC dwindle away to nothing and your ramblings keep it going.
Tech Center Labs
www.talestuff.com
www.iTalentProductions.com

RE: In other words...
Fake Jeff Hawkins @ 9/5/2011 9:59:33 PM # Q
Apple = overpriced computers for poseurs to surf the Net with in Starbucks, furtively glancing around checking if anyone is looking at the big, gaudy APPLE LOGO on their device. Apple should sell iStickers for poor poseurs to apply to their Acers and HPs so they too can pretend to have more money than brains.


http://www.anandtech.com/show/4371/intel-ultrabook-meet-the-new-thin-and-light-notebook

FJH

2012: the year Apple's rapid decline begins
Fake Jeff Hawkins @ 9/5/2011 10:06:51 PM # Q
In a year the Apple fashionistas will all be crying in their $6 lattes over how quickly things have changed. Apple has a target on their back and there no longer is a Reality Distortion Field protecting them. They need to find a P.T. Barnum descendent and make them the official Apple spokesperson ASAP.

Fake Jeff Hawkins

RE: In other words...
nastebu @ 9/5/2011 10:14:21 PM # Q
FJH,

you lose a lot of credibility when you refuse to recognize that there are a lot of good reasons people by Macs. Some of them might seem trivial to the geeky mind--such as design and user experience--but those trivial elements of Apple products are very real advantages in the market place and very real reasons why Apple will not, despite your prediction, be foundering a year from now.

If you can't appreciate why Apple is successful now, you can't expect to predict when Apple will cease to be so in the future.

RE: In other words...
jca666us @ 9/6/2011 3:06:39 AM # M Q
Fake,

If you read about the ultraportables intel has spec'ed, one thing these manufacturers are having an extremely difficult time of is matching the price of the MacBook air.

Apples stuff isn't quite - if at all - as overpriced as you claim.

RE: In other words...
Tuckermaclain @ 9/6/2011 8:24:43 PM # Q
Apple has lost their visionary. Without Jobs on the stage showing off his latest creation it's for sure going to be a harder sell. Remember how Apple was doing before Jobs returned??
RE: In other words...
Fake Jeff Hawkins @ 9/6/2011 9:50:08 PM # Q
Fake,

If you read about the ultraportables intel has spec'ed, one thing these manufacturers are having an extremely difficult time of is matching the price of the MacBook air.

Apples stuff isn't quite - if at all - as overpriced as you claim.

The problem with the Ultraportables is that Intel is stressing the importance of near instant-on and price below $1000. Intel realizes that ARM can kill x86 now that Windows 8 is coming and they are trying to compete by using tablet-type features. Until SSDs drop significantly in price there won't be much profit in a well-specc'ed sub-$1000 if they are going to be positioned as premium laptops with magnesium cases, good screens, etc.
Lower the quality and Ultraportables are a viable niche.

Apple's iPhone 4 is a good value in terms of hardware, software and functionality. It's like having a miniature computer in your pocket and with over 400 apps loaded on my iPhone I use it more than any other piece of electronics I own except my ThinkPad Tablet PC. But the iPhone also makes a terrible PHONE, so I use mine for apps, data and hotspot purposes only (voice is actually turned off on my plan).

iPad was a HELL of a good value when it was first introduced. Apple shook up the market with that one and left no room for the competition. I respect the product planners who designed it and would consider buying an iPad 3 when the high res panel finally arrives. Effective UI + brilliant app selection = hard to argue against.

iPod Touch was a good value. At least compared to disgusting snake oil like the iPod Nano.

MacBooks are overpriced with respect to the functionality you get for your money.

Now if you want to argue that Apple products are worth it to you because of support, less viruses, aesthetics, aluminum cases, blessings by His Holiness, Steve Jobs, latte spill-proof exteriors etc., then go for it. People that know COMPUTERS and have the money buy ThinkPads, LifeBooks, VAIO Z. People that know FASHION buy MacBooks.

The original MacBook Air was an underpowered embarassment that summed up all that was wrong and cynical about Apple. Is the new one any better? I suspect not.

- FJH

RE: In other words...
Fake Jeff Hawkins @ 9/6/2011 10:08:29 PM # Q
If you can't appreciate why Apple is successful now, you can't expect to predict when Apple will cease to be so in the future.

Quite the contrary. I know EXACTLY why Apple is successful now. And the reason for that success will ultimately be their downfall.

You - like most casual observers - don't see the Big Picture. You also don't understand the unique cultures that drive companies like Apple and Google to act in VERY predictable ways. Those of us with firsthand experience with these companies and the people that work for them in Silicon Valley find it all as predictable as clockwork. I am surprised though that Schmidt has allowed Google to stumble the way it has in the past year, but if played correctly there are now cards present in the deck that could easily allow Microsoft, Google, Samsung and Amazon to bring high-flying Apple back to Earth within a few quarters. We'll see if Apple lives up to its supposed goal of 20 million tablets shipped this quarter. Missed targets, revised estimates and slipped dates (Palm-style) will herald the beginning of The End.

Fake Jeff Hawkins (Rotten To The Core)

RE: In other words...
jca666us @ 9/7/2011 4:51:39 AM # Q
Fake,

Actually in a very long time (over 10 years), Apple hasn't missed a ship date.

Apple is *still* selling every iPad 2 it can make. Add 20 million this quarter to the pile and they've sold around 60 million iPad 2's.

Now if you want to argue that Apple products are worth it to you because of support, less viruses, aesthetics, aluminum cases, blessings by His Holiness, Steve Jobs, latte spill-proof exteriors etc., then go for it. People that know COMPUTERS and have the money buy ThinkPads, LifeBooks, VAIO Z. People that know FASHION buy MacBooks.

Talk about an ignorant statement, FJH.

I have a Mac Pro - w/ virtualization s/w, I run windows quicker and faster than a windows PC does - when I need to.

Apple isn't worth it if you need the fastest video card or speediest CPU. Apple is worth it if you need a computer that "just works".

The original MacBook Air was an underpowered embarassment that summed up all that was wrong and cynical about Apple. Is the new one any better? I suspect not.

The new macbook air is *phenomenal* - much faster, lighter, and starts at $999 - amazing Apple can do something the PC manufacturers can't seem to tackle.

Apple has lost their visionary. Without Jobs on the stage showing off his latest creation it's for sure going to be a harder sell. Remember how Apple was doing before Jobs returned??

The difference this time is Jobs aint coming back. Also Tim Cook has been running the show since 2004...in seven years they haven't been doing badly at all.


RE: In other words...
HyperScheduler @ 9/7/2011 9:14:03 AM # Q
Fake Jeff Hawkins, has someone hacked your account? Your insights are nearly always profound. I am rather surprised that it seems that you do not "get" Apple.

When I pick-up my iPhone, I marvel at how simple it feels to use, even when I perform highly complex functions. There is something so "normal" about it. Someone here posted (maybe it was you?) that iOS feels like "an old shoe" that just fits.

Before I had an iPhone, I never knew that ANY computer manufacturer CARED IN THE LEAST regarding how the user actually used the product. After owning an iPhone for nearly 2 years, I am dreading the day that I need to buy another PC on the ground that I cannot afford an Apple computer (you are correct that Apple products are way too expensive).

But even though I cannot afford what I really want--a MacBook Air running Pimlical Desktop in a Parallels virtual environment, to which I can HotSync changes in a PalmOS device into Pimlical, sync that with Google Calendar, and then observe the automagic sync into what will soon be an iPhone 5--the fact remains that Apple's intellectual and user-interface supremacy makes me see the tech-world now the way that Gary described it: paraphrasing here, but it seems like it's just inevitable that eventually one realizes that the only company making a "real" computer these days happens to be Apple. I guess that this is the "halo effect."

FJH, how do you reconcile your accurate predictions about iOS (that consumers are starting to expect technology to be as easy to use as iOS) with your predictions about Apple itself (that consumers will turn away from it(?)).

Does any other computer or technology company make products that "just work"?

RE: In other words...
hkklife @ 9/7/2011 12:57:29 PM # Q
From 206 until, oh, early-mid 2005 (though some would argue it was in 2009 when the Pre arrived and EOL'd the Centro), Palm Inc/Palm Computing made superb products that "just worked". Intant on, superbly intuitive UI, hardware that suited the OS (to put it politely), long battery life, robust 3rd party app and user community support and STILL THE DAMN DAMN PIM ON ANY MOBILE DEVICE!

But really, with the passing of the the PDA era in 2003-2004, Palm left the market WIDE open for the iPhone juggernaut and, to a much lesser extent, RIM's several-year period of dominance prior to and alongside the iPhone.

The day that Apple makes iOS devices completely and utterly capable of functioning without EVER having to plug into a host PC or do ANYTHING tethered to iTunes , we'll be approaching true "pocket computer" status. Until then, we have the lousy wired connectivity circa-1996 and Apple's continued missteps with the cloud.


Pilot 1000->Pilot 5000->PalmPilot Pro->IIIe->Vx->m505->T|T->T|T2->T|C->T|T3->T|T5->Zodiac 2->TX->Verizon Treo 700P->Verizon Treo 755p->Verizon Moto Droid + Verizon Palm Centro-> Verizon Moto Droid X2 + Palm TX

RE: In other words...
HyperScheduler @ 9/7/2011 1:23:25 PM # Q
I agree with you!
RE: In other words...
nastebu @ 9/7/2011 2:54:17 PM # Q
Fake Jeff Hawkins wrote:

Now if you want to argue that Apple products are worth it to you because of support, less viruses, aesthetics, aluminum cases, blessings by His Holiness, Steve Jobs, latte spill-proof exteriors etc., then go for it. People that know COMPUTERS and have the money buy ThinkPads, LifeBooks, VAIO Z. People that know FASHION buy MacBooks.

Even if I accept that as true (which I don't), why should that mean that Apple won't thrive? There are a lot of people who know fashion, many more than know computers. And fashion is quite relevant to marketing and selling things, more so than technical specifications.

And even if I accept that your list of things Apple does well is definitive (which I don't), what is wrong with more support, less viruses, aesthetics, aluminum cases, latte spill-proof exteriors etc.? Those all seem like very good reasons to buy a computer to me. They matter more to the everyday interaction with a computer than the graphics card.

Even if I accept that Apple is overprice (I think it is debatable), people pay more money for a couch with prettier upholstery, more money for a well designed blender, more money for an easier to use microwave oven. People pay outrageous amounts of money for beautiful clothes, for extremely well made hand bags. You might think this is foolish (hell, *I* might think some of this is foolish), but it is true, and Coach isn't going out of business even though the handbag on sale at Target costs, literally, 5% as much. There is a market, a big market, for what Apple sells, and it isn't going away. If Apple wasn't Apple, some other company would step in.

Anyway, what is wrong with buying something that you find beautiful and easy to use? Even paying more for that?

RE: In other words...
jca666us @ 9/9/2011 3:15:45 PM # M Q
hkk,

that day is nearly here.

iOS 5 does not require a pc at all and using iCloud makes it virtually iTunes free.

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