PalmGear Changes the Way it Pays Developers

Yep, I think that about sums it up.

Agreed. Here's one developer who is going to pull all his applications off PalmGear by the end of the week. And this doesn't prevent me from instructing my lawyers to collect the large sums still owing from PalmGear...

Also, developers might be interested to know that in the event that a bankruptcy does occur, any preferential payments that are deemed to be improper may be recoverable by the bankruptcy trustee up to a year later. They can come after money that you have already received if it is deemed that you were improperly preferentially treated. I'm not sure if this policy of paying current vendors, preferentially, is legal.

While I have sympathy for the sentiment expressed here. If you force bankrupcy, all that probably means is that you force them out of buisness, not that you will get paid.

Force the sale of assets? Used servers are a dime a dozen these days.

On the otherhand, anyone who could run a 100% market share of third party software into the ground deserves to be run out of town even if it does not serve any purpose other than to make us all feel better.

To the developer who is planning to pull his/her apps from PalmGear:

Where will you list them? At the moment, PalmGear is the only service I check. If there's an exodus, I want to know where to follow.

it has been discussed quite a bit within the developer community - but, one of the most interesting was when a bunch of developers like myself discussed setting up a palm software site. we wouldn't have these problems with real time delivery of software, we would know what the users would want to see - and, we'd be able to tailor it to the developers needs..

getting a merchant account isn't too hard these days - and, running costs surely should not be 20%-25% of the money that is received.. hosting servers doesn't cost that much - it may even be possible to offer bandwidth based on how much you sell.. many business options here.. many many many moons ago i wrote a real time fullfilment engine for PGHQ - but, it was never implemented.. it was finished, but, never integrated into their website - heck, they still run off yahoo.

maybe the bankruptcy of one, and, the emergence of another is feasible? offering 10% fee's would really push the limit on people like Handango and PGHQ - many developers are currently seeking in-house solutions such as e-sellerate, kagi etc. the only problem there is exposure - but, do you really get exposure on a site like Handango or PGHQ these days?

// az
aaron@ardiri.com
http://www.ardiri.com/
http://www.mobilewizardry.com/

As somebody who's bought a lot of Palm software (a lot from Palmgear, and some from Handango), I have an interest in making sure my money gets to the people who wrote the software I want.

Yes, I agree I like the Palmgear site much better than Handango's. It's much easier to find good stuff on Palmgear. I write software for a living and get paid for it. I don't expect people who write Palm software to work for free. If the developer doesn't get paid by Palmgear, they will find a distributor who will pay them or stop writing software. Handango may not have the best site, but if they actually pay the developers what they're owed in a somewhat timely basis....

At some point, Palmgear's plan is not just bad business practices. If I take somebody's money under contract to deliver a percentage of it to the developer, and don't, I'm breaching my contract. The developer has a variety of remedies. So do I. If I want to be able to get new, improved Palm software, I'll go to Handango, or directly to the developer's site.

I think Mr. Ardiri's idea is a reasonable one. As a user, not a developer, I am frustrated to hear that the individuals doing the hard work are being cheated out of money. I didn't realize that PalmGear practiced business this way. Running a website/server can't really be that hard. Everything is automated, so their profit margin must be relatively high. If developers do rally to create a website, I hope they will remember all the users, now registered at PalmGear with their paid software, when establishing this. One of my biggest concerns would be that I, and other registered users, would get lost in the transition to another major software distributor if PalmGear went under. Getting updates to software could become almost impossible... or certainly quite a headache.

Yes, people, let's ignore the facts presented here and help kill off PalmGear HQ. Then well only have Handango to worry about....

Oh yes, this SHOULD really help further the Palm OS cause....

While we're at it, why don't we just use the other barrel to blow our heads off and give up in defeat to M$ all together, since Handango sells to both platforms already....

What I don't understand about all you "programmers" is you entered into a verbal or written "agreement" with PGHQ - NOT a "written contract".

Basically you were letting PGHQ advertise your software so Palm OS users could go to a nicely laid out, easily searched web site offering Palm OS software in exchange that you would be paid for software sold.

While I completely understand about writing software and expecting to get paid for your (my) work, YOU tell ME (and everyone else here) where in the WWW (and world) you're going to get practically free advertisement to MILLIONS (and possibly Billions) of customers all in ONE place? Sure, there is Handango, but intrinsically people are going to gyrate toward PalmGear.com instead of Handango.com when looking for "Palm" OS based software...

Most people looking for "Palm" software would probably type "Palm Software" in a search engine (google in this case) and who pops ups first in the list before Handango??? Bingo! PalmGear! Ok, what does this prove - nothing other than people are (usually) automatically going to associate PalmGear.com with Palm OS software than with Handango?

Besides - "Handango"? That doesn't sound like it has ANYTHING to do with Palm OS software! On the other hand, "PalmGear" - Hmmm, I wonder what they have on their site.... Hmmm, "Palm" and "Gear”.... Hmmm, maybe "gear" for the "Palm"? (Duh!)

Lastly, as a programmer myself, and having used many, many other Palm OS software programs, we programmers could make everything EXTREMELY easy for ourselves by simply making our software SHAREWARE or NAGWARE in that after an allotted time period - the usual 15 or 30 days the software is non-functional and PROMPTS the user to CONTACT US - Not PalmGear, Not Handango, NOT etc. in order to BUY the program and REGISTER it THROUGH US!

Then, this way we don't have to complain about not being paid by some "middle man" when they get into financial dire straights when being sued by their economic rivals.

What REALLY amazes me is all the STINK everyone here is raising about what PalmGear is NOT doing when the main MONEY and LEGAL problems it had were caused by Handango frivolous lawsuit!

YOU should be PISSED at Handango for forcing PalmGear to spend essentially YOUR money in order to defend itself and to keep itself afloat in order to continue to advertise YOUR programs. Heck, ALL programmers who think PalmGear is "screwing" you out of your money should sign a petition to file a lawsuit against Handango for damages, and YOUR PAIN and SUFFERING due to not being paid while PalmGear had to defend itself from Handango frivolous lawsuit!

Why doesn't everyone rally behind PalmGear like everyone did with Pimlico? Doesn't anyone else "see" how shady actions, and frivolous lawsuits by companies such as Handango and iambic - the DIRECT competitors of PalmGear and Pimlico just to "steal" their business away???

Food for thought....

I for one am Happy with PalmGear and I HOPE and PRAY they stay around (and in business) for a very LONG LONG time! Searching for Palm OS software on their site is SO MUCH easier than any other PALM OS site.

I mean, is there really any other site out there so well know like PalmGear, that is as easy at it is to search for Palm OS programs? If so, Please enlighten others and me here! Please! (Without being sarcastic or hurtful). Thanks...

Does anyone have any truly independent information about this "lawsuit" (ie: no information from PalmGear, who just might be biased in this matter).

No smoke without fire... as the saying goes...

Oops, what I meant to write was that the "written aggreement" is, in fact, an enforcable business contract.

-Brett

Here's a thought (and that's all it is - I haven't put too much analysis into it) :

Leave your application on PGHQ, but don't allow customers to download it directly. When a customer purchases the software and you get the notification, follow up with a brief message to the effect that you are sorry, but because of PalmGear's failure to pay you will not be able to accept the order from PalmGear. You will be happy to process any order from Handango/eSellerate/etc. ASAP.

This would do the following :
1) It will keep you on the "pay quicker" list at PGHQ, if such a thing even exists.
2) It will get the customers (the ones Kenny really cares about) complaining to PGHQ.
3) It will help transition your revenue stream to a more reliable partner.

Thoughts, comments, dissenting opinions?

I am not so sure that PalmGear is the enemy yet.

When a company is sued, they get to use whatever liquid cash it has. If there is no money left, they file chapter 11 or bankruptcy.

So, which do you prefer? Palmgear to exist and slowly make up for past payments or outright bankruptcy? What they did is legal as far as I know. Otherwise, tons of other companies should be sued to death for not first paying their rebates, their debtors, etc. etc. before they use their company's money... (so they use their own employee's pocket money to pay for lawsuits?). What are you asking for? It is probably legal for all involved to sue them for past due balances too... but don't be too trigger happy. Probably you will get a bankrupt company and nothing in return except your lawyer's fees.

Anyway, I still feel very strongly against Handango. I am still convinced Palmgear is a victim of Handango, and that Palmgear is probably run by an inexperience person trying his best. Perhaps someone else can enlighten me to the real evil he has done, or if he has more experience than I thought.

Well, then, you're an idiot because to do so could run good developers out of the business if they continue not to get paid--and whatever this release says, it offers precious little guarantee that developers are going to see all their money.

Well, a website I used to frequent quite often has finally re-launched. They have a whole new layout, and have begun a software repository engine. From what I understand, listing your software is completely free! It's a nice site, which should pick up when word of mouth spreads.

A nice cause for developers.

www.pdasquare.com

Mike

A quote from an article in June's Business 2.0 attributed to Thomas Reardon (formally from Microsoft): "The presumption at Microsoft is that all you have to do is wound the opponent, and they will bleed to death".

Somebody has been taking lessons.

To address a few of the posts here I will copy and past and put the text being replied to so it is prefaced by "RE:" and the text being replied to inside quote marks. My comments will be preceded by "PG:" and will be enclosed inside brackets ([ & ]).. Just to keep clear..

Regards,

Kenny West
PalmGear.com

RE:
"After two and a half years of litigation the jury in the case unanimously voted that no "contract" had been entered into by either party. Further it was determined had there been any serious discussion on the subject it was in fact Q Ventures who terminated negotiations with its memo stating the deal was off.

Now I present you with an interesting footnote to this story. Randy Eisenman, director of venture capital investments at Q-Ventures LP is also a founder of PalmGear’s rival, Handango Inc."

PG:
[and the same group (Q) bought out palmcentral.com and launched as their own site within (if memory serves) less than 60 days AFTER they filed suit against us...]

and also in reply to:

""I dont know how things works in the US, but does not the losing side have to pay all the legal fees of winning side?"

No unfortunately that is not the case. Anyone can sue anyone without having any risk here in the U.S. I wish the losers would have to pay the legal costs of the winners, as it would make people think twice about sueing a company just to get rich quick. That won't happen as long as the plaintiff bar association exists."

PG:
[the last text quoted above sums it up... While no way to go back in time I doubt it would have been filed had they been at risk for our legal fees which BTW were WELL just under $1,500,000]

RE:
"5) Handango was involved in the same lawsuit however they didn't pay their lawers with my money."

PG:
[Yes and no... They did pay out of the funds they had invested in them to create the site, etc. The difference being is that the suit had multiple effects, a few of which are:

A. "hobbled" us by making so that it was impossible to even seek outside funding or even bank financing..

B. caused the financing we were able to get as an example for hardware for the site to have the interest rates much, MUCH higher than had the suit not been filed.

There are of course other items...]

RE:
"but because of PalmGear's failure to pay you will not be able to accept the order from PalmGear. You will be happy to process any order from Handango/eSellerate/etc. ASAP.

This would do the following :
1) It will keep you on the "pay quicker" list at PGHQ, if such a thing even exists.
2) It will get the customers (the ones Kenny really cares about) complaining to PGHQ.
3) It will help transition your revenue stream to a more reliable partner."

PG:
[Yes, you could do this though who will it really help? As was pointed out by another poster here... If we (PalmGear.com) went away then what? While I wish I could give you all a guarantee that all the issues/AP/etc. would be resolved on or before X day and month I cannot do that though if we did go away (as was pointed out by another reply) you can be virtually guaranteed that after the legal fees, splits, etc., etc. there would be little if anything left...]

RE:
"Are you sure Handango's lawsuit was "totally bogus". I am not sure since the only person who told me it was bogus was Kenny West himself. Kenny's seemingly illegal actions regarding payments are making me wonder if perhaps Handango did in fact have somthing to sue about. "

PG:
[I am certainly not going to call it bogus as that term may get us into further problems with them... With that said I am not the only one who felt it was unfounded! The filing was such that they did not have to prove "beyond a reasonalbe doubt" our guilt. It was of the type where they only had to convince the majority of the jurors by "preponderance of evidence". In other words at or more than 50% beleived their story against us. In spite of that not only did the jury find in our favor they were UNANIMOUS in their decision on ALL counts they charged us with! AND... while they were deliberating they sent a question out to us the plaintiffs and the judge asking if they were limited to the damages they were charged with using for their decisions. Once the jury came back with their decision we asked the jury what they meant by that question (it is not allowed to ask them prior to deliberatin being completed I was told). They replied that they felt so strongly in our favor that they wanted to know if they could asses damages against the plaintiff (Q) for (if memory serves as I do not recall the exact number though this is close) $600,000 PLUS legal fees! Alas due to the suit not being filed by us it could only be done if we had filed a counter suit.. BUT... we were told that if we did that while we would have a good chance of winning it would in all reality take 2 to 3 years to go to trial and that if we won that after appeals, etc. it would be another 2 to 3 years before we ever saw any money.... And that the legal fees would be between $750k and up...]

PG: In closing (this is not in reply to any specific text, etc. here) we are committed to all of you and the Palm OS market. We like many others feel that the best market is a healthy one with more than one site like ours... If any of you wish to discuss feel free to email me directly and I will personally reply. I wish I could keep up with all the replies, etc. here though due to time restraints cannot.

Kenny,

In the past, I agreed with PG's situation that the litigations can hamper your funding capability. Now everything is cleared out (I guess long time ago), why don't you act like a true business man, create a strategic plan to raise your funding like every start up company does. Get the cash reserve and clear all your debt first and try to rebuild your reputation. I will restore my faith on PG without any doubt. Any excuse now is excess.

Please don't streotype Handango as a monopoly animal. Our company sells software through PG, Handango, and our own site via Kagi as on transaction house. Years of records prove that, 15% from Handango, 7% from PalmGear, rest of 78% came from Kagi.

If you are a developer, listen to this number. Or you may want to try yourself out.