Rumor: Palm and Apple Working Together on Wi-Fi

According to an anonymous source, Apple and Palm Inc. are working together to develop an 802.11 access card for the next generation of Palm's handhelds. As often happens with rumors, details are extremely sketchy, not even including what form the device will take. It could be designed to plug into the SD port like Palm's Bluetooth SD card or connect to the Universal Connector like the Xircom Wi-Fi sled.

If Palm was looking for a large company to work with on producing and marketing a Wi-Fi product, Apple is a reasonable candidate. Apple was the first large computer maker to embrace Wi-Fi, which it calls Airport. It makes a line of access stations and PC cards for its Mac models.

The main disadvantage of Wi-Fi for handhelds is it draws a great deal of power, greatly limiting the amount of time it can be used. This is why the Xircom Wi-Fi sled for Palm models has a built-in battery. The Toshiba e740, which has a built-in 802.11b radio, can only use if for 2 hours before its battery is drained.

While there are some concerns about whether a Wi-Fi radio can fit in something as small as an SD card, SyChip is confident enough that it has announced it will have one ready by the end of this year.

Wi-Fi isn't the only option for wireless networking. Palm's Bluetooth SD card or Sony Bluetooth Memory Stick, which are already available, in conjunction with a Bluetooth network access point, can do it right now, albeit with less range and slower access than 802.11.

About 802.11
802.11, also called Wi-Fi, is used to create a wireless, Local Area Network (LAN) and allows connections across ranges as great as 100 meters and speeds up to 10 Mbps, depending on power level and objects interfering with transmissions. Connections are made via access points and consequently multiple devices can be connected to the network through an access point, provided they are within range.

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SD slot

I.M. Anonymous @ 7/16/2002 11:33:05 AM #
I'd love to have something like this but the problem I see is that it takes up the only avaliable slot for external memory.
RE: SD slot
Fammy @ 7/16/2002 11:56:46 AM #
It would be nice to see dual SD Card slots in Palm's OS5 machines.

_____
Fammy

Road Warriors

james_sorenson @ 7/16/2002 11:47:45 AM #
As far as office and home use, it looks like Bluetooth is much better suited for the job. However, now that cyber-cafes, school grounds, and airports are starting to host Wi-fi connections for those on the road, I could see where this would be nice to have. Don't want to pay through the nose for every kb of data downloaded through your GPRS connection? Duck into a cybercafe, slap on the adapter, and browse away.

-------
James Sorenson
RE: Road Warriors
I.M. Anonymous @ 7/16/2002 11:57:45 AM #
How about some kind of adapter that can take a bluetooth signal and rebroadcast it on a WiFi network?

Then take the WiFi signal and rebroadcast it back as bluetooth?

Best of both worlds.

RE: Road Warriors
I.M. Anonymous @ 7/16/2002 12:17:13 PM #
I read somewhere that companies are working to make wireless network access ports that use both 802.11 and Bluetooth. You can connect to them with whatever you've got in your PDA or laptop.
RE: Road Warriors
I.M. Anonymous @ 7/16/2002 12:30:19 PM #
>>"How about some kind of adapter that can take a bluetooth signal and rebroadcast it on a WiFi network?
Then take the WiFi signal and rebroadcast it back as bluetooth?
Best of both worlds. "

Bluetooth and 802.11b use different protocols and frequency ranges. Any adapter would basically include both a fully capable Bluetooth and 802.11b card. If you have both in yr device now, then - basically - you already have this (ie: a 802.11b sled and a BT SD card in the same Palm unit). I suppose have both on one card might be nice - but considering the technology, it would have to be a sled (802.11b on SD is still a ways off).

How about a BLUETOOTH 802.11b bridge
I.M. Anonymous @ 7/16/2002 1:00:25 PM #

http://www.possio.com/spread.asp?dynfile=tech&cat=2&loop=2&dh=2

Always thought this might be the way to go. Battery powered, although it's something else to carry...

cheers.

RE: Road Warriors
Ed @ 7/16/2002 2:12:18 PM #
The Possio Bluetooth/Wi-Fi Access Point looks really cool and I'd want one if the price didn't literally make my jaw drop: $1000.

---
News Editor
RE: Road Warriors
He||Raiser @ 7/16/2002 2:31:11 PM #
I had the same reaction Ed. I was thinking that this component would be perfect for a "road warrior," but I don't even think enterprises would purchase these at this price. If an office needed conversion between BT and Wi-Fi, they'd get an AC powered bridge. And if they were sending out someone with a handheld, but wanted them to stay connected to the office, they'd give him either a i705 or Treo, or they'd give them both the BT card and the Wi-Fi sled to carry. Having the sled and the card is still cheaper than that Posio bridge and for the extra $500, you can bear to carry the sled in your briefcase.

Quasi realted question

I.M. Anonymous @ 7/16/2002 11:49:11 AM #
Is it theoretically possible to piggy-back SD cards? What I am suggesting is a Wi-Fi SD card that also has room for one to plug in another SD card. I seem to remember piggy-backing cartridges on my old Commodore 64 this way. I just don't know if it is possible with SD cards.

Probably not a sled

I.M. Anonymous @ 7/16/2002 12:25:00 PM #
Xircom has had an 802.11b sled for a while now - why would Palm team up with Apple to bring us something so lacklustre, non-cutting edge, and just plain bulky. If there is any truth to this rumour, then they must be working on an SD version or internal chipset for next generation Palms. Actually - it seems more likely that - instead of Palm needing Apple to achieve basic 802.11b - they are working together to make sure that Palm integrates this technology nicely at an interface level with Apples wireless network products.
RE: Probably not a sled
I.M. Anonymous @ 7/16/2002 12:48:29 PM #
Sled is dead!

It's impractical and expensive. Current PFfard/CD/SD are abundance, nobody would want to buy a sledge that would cost twise as expensive and only work for one model.

RE: Probably not a sled
I.M. Anonymous @ 7/16/2002 8:26:21 PM #
"nobody would want to buy a sledge that would cost twise as expensive and only work for one model."

...Unless your device only has a single expansion slot.
One would think nobody would want to buy a device with a single slot if they had any intention of using any of these wired or wireless devices in the first place...

Sleds may well be a grim reality until more users and manufacturers wake up, or PPU comes down enough that they include these onboard.

RE: Probably not a sled
I.M. Anonymous @ 7/16/2002 9:59:35 PM #
> and only work for one model.

The Intel 802.11b sled works with the m500, m505, m515, m125, m130, and i705. Palm uses a standard connector for all these models so companies can make accessories that fit all them.

RE: Probably not a sled
I.M. Anonymous @ 7/17/2002 8:54:22 PM #
The connector works, but do all of those models have the same shape in back? I think someone said at one point that that was an issue.

Bluetooth is just as bad ...

I.M. Anonymous @ 7/16/2002 12:55:25 PM #
... on current implementations anyway. For example, I only get 1 hour 45 minutes of constant usage (from 100% full overnight charge) using my Bluetooth stick and CLIE T625. Which is crazy if you're going to rely on your PDA for on-the-road connectivity.

These wireless technologies for mobile business are nothing but hype. In the coming years, when battery performance in small devices improves, then one might be able to use these technologies for business critical application.

In the meantime, my Bluetooth stick now remains a novelty purchase and I only ever envisage using it for PPP connection or wireless syncing when I'm at home and near a cradle - or perhaps for emergency connectivity usage on the road.

RE: Bluetooth Memory stick not typical of Bluetooth
I.M. Anonymous @ 7/16/2002 2:07:25 PM #
I get six hours of continuous Bluetooth operation on palm with the Bluetooth SD card. I don't know what is up with Sony's implementation.
RE: Bluetooth is just as bad ... Are you so sure?
He||Raiser @ 7/16/2002 2:24:01 PM #
For the guy with the T625c, please try your Bluetooth card in a different device. The T625c has a very short battery life to start with. You can only get three and a half hours of life out of the device at it's lowest brightness setting. Please don't complain about the card until you test it in another Sony device. Try an S or N series handheld. Those have much better battery lives than the T series. (I'm not a Sony basher; I would have gotten the T625c if it gave me decent battery life.)

RE: Bluetooth is just as bad ...
I.M. Anonymous @ 7/16/2002 2:29:19 PM #
From the reviews I've seen, none of the Sony T6xx devices run for much more than 2-3 hours even without a Bluetooth stick in use. So, 1:45 using it doesn't seem too bad. The Palm devices just have longer battery life.
RE: Bluetooth is just as bad ...
I.M. Anonymous @ 7/16/2002 5:47:22 PM #
"I get six hours of continuous Bluetooth operation on palm with the Bluetooth SD card. I don't know what is up with Sony's implementation."

And any HandEra 330 owner can get 6 hours continuous or better with the Symbol 802.11b CF card. Battery life of an M50x with bluetooth, higher res screen like a Sony, and dual slots like Toshiba's.

RE: Bluetooth is just as bad ...
I.M. Anonymous @ 7/16/2002 6:52:00 PM #
>>And any HandEra 330 owner can get 6 hours continuous or better with the Symbol 802.11b CF card. Battery life of an M50x with bluetooth, higher res screen like a Sony, and dual slots like Toshiba's.

I like everything i hear about Handera - though i have never had the pleasure of seeing or using one. Only 2 things would hold me back: 1) no-colour 2) wierd 240x320 res.

The first is self-explanatory. The second point: How does handera deal with bitmaps intended for 160x160? On a Sony, it doubles the x and y - causing it to look the same. How does Handera deal with this? Does it just keep the image small or does it have some sort of extrapolation algorithm? If its the later, don't bitmaps look off with every other pixel being doubled? I realize that my post is completely off topic, but i have been wondering about how this works on Handera for a long time.

RE: Bluetooth is just as bad ...
I.M. Anonymous @ 7/16/2002 7:16:21 PM #
Handera is nice... if only it had a colour display.
RE: Bluetooth is just as bad ...
I.M. Anonymous @ 7/16/2002 8:31:51 PM #
"If its the later, don't bitmaps look off with every other pixel being doubled?"

They can indeed look a little thicker or slightly off. But most of the major titles you'd use are high-res on the 330 so that's not often an issue. Many of the rest won't bother you. If it does you go into the prefs and specify that that app should run in 160x160 mode, either centered on the screen in the upper left. Problem solved (though the app displays smaller). What's nice is that in scale-to-fit mode, 160x160 apps form objects and fonts are replaced with high res ones on the fly. So for the most part you won't notice a difference between running the app on a 160x160 device or a 330. But the high-res ones (including built in apps) are pure beauty on the rich monochrome, brightly backlit screen.

This spoken as a user with a broad range of 140+ apps currently installed, as well as 802.11b

RE: Bluetooth is just as bad ...
I.M. Anonymous @ 7/17/2002 2:40:51 AM #
"And any HandEra 330 owner can get 6 hours continuous or better with the Symbol 802.11b CF card."

I use a HandEra myself, but 6 hours isn't true. 2.5 hour maximum. 802.11 is draining my battery. Bluetooth is THE choice when it comes to low power.....FULL STOP.

RE: Bluetooth is just as bad ...
I.M. Anonymous @ 7/17/2002 7:08:54 AM #
Which card are you using with your 330, and which power setting is the other poster using with the Symbol card? The Symbol card is one of the more power efficient ones, plus it has 5 power settings you can choose from. I'd expect there to be considerable differences between different cards and power save settings.

RE: Bluetooth is just as bad ...
I.M. Anonymous @ 7/17/2002 4:11:35 PM #
It most certainly is true. The Symbol card at power saving level 5, with the Lithium-Ion battery pack in the 330. Total device draw is between 40-50 mA (including backlight).

mmm...

I.M. Anonymous @ 7/16/2002 12:52:05 PM #
>> The Toshiba e740, which has a built-in 802.11b radio, can only use if for 2 hours before its battery is drained.... Xircom.

How much does Xircom cost and how long will it last on full charge batt?

1.$299 (that would be $299 + $350 m515 == $650)
2. Nobody knows how long it will last (heck wonder who can afford it at that price)
3. the sledge is the size of a bluewhale.
4. Very limited practicality on current Palm applications. (can't browse the web without proxy, second biggest wireless apps after email and messaging)

----
now the e740 can do 2hrs continuous Wi-fi connect at $599 out of the box, with all software apps behaving in familiar manner as in desktop.

----

If Palm can do wireless video streaming for one hrs continuously at similar price and size, than PIC can start dissing E740. But I am afraid hyping a $299 sledge that only can do limited text apps won't cut it.

RE: mmm...
I.M. Anonymous @ 7/16/2002 1:17:26 PM #
> Nobody knows how long it will last

According to PC Magazine, the Xircom Wi-fi sled works for 8 hours. That's 4x as long as the e740.

> heck wonder who can afford it at that price

The e740 costs $600. Who can afford it at that price?

>the sledge is the size of a bluewhale.

e740
4.9" x 3.1" x 0.6

m505 with Xircom:
4.9" by 3.1" by 1.1"


Plus with the e740 you are stuck with a second rate os.

RE: mmm...
I.M. Anonymous @ 7/16/2002 2:30:34 PM #
> Nobody knows how long it will last

>According to PC Magazine, the Xircom Wi-fi sled works
>for 8 hours. That's 4x as long as the e740.

Yeah, using an ugly monocrome 160x160 screen

> heck wonder who can afford it at that price
>The e740 costs $600. Who can afford it at that price?

The e740 is not an add-on. Is a complete PDA with 2 slots plus a Wi-Fi card.

>the sledge is the size of a bluewhale.

>e740
>4.9" x 3.1" x 0.6

>m505 with Xircom:
>4.9" by 3.1" by 1.1"

Again, we are talking about a 400Mhz StrongArm 64Mb/CF/SD/Wifi versus a miserable m505

>Plus with the e740 you are stuck with a second rate os.
Plus with the m505 you are stuck with a dead os (os4)


RE: mmm...
I.M. Anonymous @ 7/16/2002 2:48:39 PM #
> Yeah, using an ugly monocrome 160x160 screen

The m505 has 16-bit color screen. The m515's is even better.

> we are talking about a 400Mhz StrongArm 64Mb/CF/SD/Wifi versus a
> miserable m505

There is no such thing as a 400MHz StrongArm. The e740 actually uses an XScale chip, and, as everyone knows, PPC 2002 can only run XScale processors at ~200 MHz max, no matter what the rated speed of the processor is.

RE: mmm...
I.M. Anonymous @ 7/16/2002 4:52:30 PM #
>The m505 has 16-bit color screen. The m515's is even better.
The screen on the m505 looks like monochrome (and still 160x160!); no comparison with the Toshiba's one

>There is no such thing as a 400MHz StrongArm. The
>e740 actually uses an XScale chip, and, as everyone
>knows, PPC 2002 can only run XScale processors at
>~200 MHz max, no matter what the rated speed of the >processor is
XScale runs at 400Mhz; maybe you mean that it is performing like a 200Mhz S/Arm; in any case is not a 33Mhz Dragonball.

RE: mmm...
useybird @ 7/16/2002 9:31:37 PM #
Will someone shut that damn troll up! Everyone knows palm kicks micro$oft's a$$

--()-- Support the USA in the war against terrorism.
RE: mmm...
useybird @ 7/16/2002 9:32:54 PM #
A 33mhz Dragonball operates faster than any 206mhz ppc because ppc os is bloated and when the palm 206mhz strongARM comes the ppc makers will crap their pants. As well as you troll

--()-- Support the USA in the war against terrorism.
RE: mmm...
I.M. Anonymous @ 7/16/2002 10:27:11 PM #
yeah, and it's so fast and efficient it will take whole 10 minutes to load up 900kb jpeg image, before konking out.

wow, I am impressed.

RE: mmm...
I.M. Anonymous @ 7/17/2002 7:47:46 AM #
nobody is even talking about m515s. This is all about ARM based Palms coming soon

I think a MERGER might be in the works!

I.M. Anonymous @ 7/16/2002 2:28:47 PM #
I can't help but get the feeling that apple and palm are doing a little more than just this collaboration on wi-fi. I think the possibility of a merger/buyout of one of these companies by the other is inevitable.
RE: I think a MERGER might be in the works!
I.M. Anonymous @ 7/16/2002 3:17:01 PM #
I seriously doubt this rumor, especially since lucent makes every single one of Apple's 802.11 cards including the one in the base station. Apple would be the wrong company to turn to for this.

welcome to the world of ''macrumors''

scaught @ 7/16/2002 2:56:11 PM #
dozens of websites dedicated to simply relaying the rumors, much less the ones that create all this stuff. i dont know how many mac users we have around here, anyone who hangs around a mac forum reads enough of this crap to choke a horse.

RE: welcome to the world of ''macrumors''
I.M. Anonymous @ 7/17/2002 7:38:31 AM #
Well the rumour involves Palm as well. If you don't like Mac's then fine, but don't start filling this fine forum with your anti-Mac tripe!

I for one am a happy Mac/Palm user who's also quite happy on that silly Windoze OS... :-P

Palm Wireless Connectivity Strategy

I.M. Anonymous @ 7/17/2002 2:45:13 AM #
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