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Palm Reduces the LifeDrive Price Again

Palm LifeDrive Price DropPalm has just cut the retail price of the LifeDrive mobile manager for the second time. The LifeDrive has been given another $50 reduction, bringing it down to a $399 MSRP. There is also free shipping on this model from Palm.com.

The LifeDrive features a 4GB hard-drive for storage, a 320x480 high-resolution color screen, and both Wi-Fi and Bluetooth. You can read the full LifeDrive review here.

You can also search for the lowest price online for the Palm LifeDrive here.

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SOME small bits of encouraging news!

hkklife @ 3/17/2006 11:52:27 AM # Q
Well, at least two encouraging signs of life from Palm today!

A LD price drop and a TX wi-fi software package.

Finally Palm listens to users like me and decides that there's $ to be had in offering worthwhile updates to existing units.
I still feel like the TX is a comprehensive ROM update away from "near greatness" but this is at least an encouraging sign.

As for the LD price drop, it's now where it should've been last year. Had the LD launched @ $400 with the 2.0 updates standard it'd have at least garnered a slightly warmer reception.
But with street prices for a TX now at $250ish and a 4gb SD card for $150ish, even a $400 LD makes no sense.

At best, Palm may release a LD2 with 64mb Real RAM cache, a $400 launch price and a 6gb or 8gb HD. At worst, this is firesale pricing designed to blow out the last of the LifeDrives before Palm drastically prunes their PDA lineup to two or three models.

Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5-->TX

RE: SOME small bits of encouraging news!
dnottingham4 @ 3/17/2006 7:03:31 PM # Q
"But with street prices for a TX now at $250ish and a 4gb SD card for $150ish, even a $400 LD makes no sense."

Are you sure that the TX can hadle a 4 GB card? I thoguth I read somewhere that it can only support a 2GB card?

http://www.truthaboutwar.org

RE: SOME small bits of encouraging news!
AdamaDBrown @ 3/18/2006 4:04:34 AM # Q
If it's not one of the non-spec 4 GB cards, the TX should be able to handle it. It has (I believe) the same FAT32 driver as the Lifedrive does.

Reply to this comment

EOL?

mikecane @ 3/17/2006 12:14:53 PM # Q
Since there haven't been *any* leaks of a *corrected* LD 2 (no OS on HD, more memory), this must be a Get Rid of Them measure.

Given all the problems I've read about it (my god, it's an endless hair-raising litany!), is even this price too high?

So much for Hawkins' latest vision!

Hawkins creates, Colligan kills.

RE: EOL?
hkklife @ 3/17/2006 2:06:04 PM # Q
Based on MY personal experiences with the "1.0" LD, yes, it's a Nader-style "unsafe at any price" item. I have not used a 2.0 ROM LD for more than 60 seconds or so I cannot comment.

Let me again reiterate the positive aspects of the LD:

-Voice recorder
-Charging LED
-SUPERB build quality/construction
-SUPERB hard butons & tactile response (simultaneous inputs are present in the 2.0 update)
-Loud alarm volume
-FAT 32 driver
-Hard buttons for screen rotation & VR
-T|T style boing boing stylus
-4gb of (slow/laggy/hot/power hungry) internal storage
-Dual wireless
-Camera companion is VERY handy if you own an SD enabled digicam

Then the huge negatives:

-Big & bulky
-Laggy out of the box and even laggier once you install apps
-Runs hot
-Crippled HD-as-RAM memory architecture (needs minimum 64mb RAM)
-Poor battery life considering NiMH capacity of the battery
-Very crash-prone with SLOOOOOW reboot times
-Unstable wi-fi (when using Blazer in landscape mode)
-Crippled Bluetooth on CDMA handsets
-Palm's USB Host box for non-SD digicams was shelved at the 11th hour and never released

IMO a slimmed down 20-30gb LifeDrive would have been an outstanding platform for Cobalt--even more so than a Treo. THAT, assuming Cobalt was stable and worked, would have in theory been an Origami type device ahead of its time. Of course the OOBE would have to be drastically beefed up with a cleaner interface TCMP with plenty of codecs pre-installed and/or a full version of PTunes etc.

Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5-->TX

RE: EOL?
Frenchie @ 3/18/2006 4:25:51 PM # Q
HOLY CRAP!!! HI MIKE!

How was the Nokia 770?

The world will end in 2006. Just as it was predicted in the bible along with the release of Microsoft Longhorn.... :p

Reply to this comment

LD2?

Surur @ 3/17/2006 12:47:08 PM # Q

Palm has become very good at keeping mum these days. A price drop may be the only signal we get before a LD2 is announced.

If there is any device thats in need of revision, its the LD, especially with the downward pressure of origami devices at e.g. $800. Of course the LD has its supporters e.g.

medevilenemy said

I think you guys fail to see the real situation here...

The LD does not and will not directly compete with the UMPC... it is in a totally different category. The UMPC, on the other hand, will compete with the LD... The terminology might not make the greatest sense, but the basic idea is that palm DOESNT HAVE TO DO ANYTHING to monopolize on the UMPC's existence. It is simply a rule of the tech market: Whenever something is released, people are soon searching for a cheaper alternative!

-- Oh, and by the way... even a current LD functions more quickly and far more efficiently than any device running any form of WindowsXP... and this is why? IT IS BECAUSE WINXP IS JUNK! and virtually all tech people will admit that. So stop predicting doom for palm and for the LD because of this big monster running WinXP! seriously people... find something else to complain about.

Surur

They said I only argued for the sake of arguing, but after an hour I convinced them they were wrong...

RE: LD2?
SeldomVisitor @ 3/17/2006 2:37:07 PM # Q
Just means they know they're sunk due to widepread competition from the Origami - get rid of the LifeDrive LINE entirely before it is too late.


RE: LifeDrive 2
Ryan @ 3/17/2006 2:59:54 PM # Q
I think the prospects are pretty good we will eventually see the LifeDrive 2. Palm made a big deal about this being the first in a new mobile manager category. Also if you look closely at the palm.com product category page it does say Mobile Managers.
RE: LD2?
SeldomVisitor @ 3/17/2006 4:17:53 PM # Q
If their "next LifeDrive" is NOT an Origami device, I think PALM is in deep doo-doo.

RE: LD2?
medevilenemy @ 3/17/2006 8:38:23 PM # Q
My sense is that palm is getting ready to release a new LifeDrive model. I dont know what they will do with the current LD, but I can think of only two highly probably possibilities... 1) that palm is going to keep the current LD, but at the good ol' $400 price point and release a new LD at $500 or 2) that palm will EOL the current LD and release a new LD at either $400 or $500

I very strongly believe that the LD line itself is not being EOLed.

... just a note: i have no problem with people quoting my comments across forum sites, but i do have to warn you that i'll probably run across such a quote eventually and casually sneak into the conversation :-)

SeldomVisitor: i believe you are wrong on many points. Remember, the LD and the various Origami devices are not in direct competition. the LD is meant to be a fully portable, pocketable handheld computer with a wide range of functionality... Origami is also meant to have a wide range of functionality, but it is not meant to be nearly as portable and most certainly not pocketable. What's more, no origami device (1st gen) will cost any less than perhaps six or seven hundred dollars (USD) and so is completely and utterly outpriced by the LD (even at it's original $500 price point).

RE: LD2?
SeldomVisitor @ 3/18/2006 8:36:00 AM # Q
I believe - very sincerely - that the LifeDrive and the Origami set of devices are in DIRECT competition - not even indirectly - and thus PALM sure better have an Origami device coming out.

As a uSoft partner PALM (or HTC!) undoubtedly had a Heads Up about the Origami design (I would hope!). Thus they would know they were screwed or they would know they had a new LifeDrive design! Tada!

Becasue if the Next Great LifeDrive ain't Origami compatible...hmmm....

RE: LD2?
medevilenemy @ 3/18/2006 11:17:01 AM # Q
What madness makes you think that palm would ever build an Origami-type device? Even suggesting that they would is silly.

And if you believe the LD will be in competition with an Origami device, please enlighten us with your reasoning. I, for one, would very much like to understand how you are coming to such a conclusion.

And it can be virtually gauranteed that the next LD wont be Origami compatable... this is for a couple of reasons. 1) the next LD will [almost] certainly be a PalmOS device, which is in itself incompatable with windows (with regards to application format and the like). 2) There is no real "Origami Standard" and therefore one cannot compare to the entire class of devices. All you can do is compare to a single device, or to WindowsXP tablet edition. 3) Origami devices will generally use miniature versions of tablet PC hardware. Probably a heavily underclocked or low-class processor to save on power, and likely little RAM at all. Which means the Origami devices (at least the 1st gen) will likely be slow clunky things which, i imagine, will be liable to some serious hardware failure. The LD (even the current one) even with it's lag problems and minor OS instability is nowhere near as unstable or slow as a Windows device using only slightly more powerful hardware. REMEMBER (AS NOBODY SEEMS TO THESE DAYS) THAT THE PALMOS WAS DESIGNED FOR MOBILE USAGE FROM THE GROUND UP, AND THAT WinXP TABLET EDITION IS SIMPLY A MODIFIED FORM OF A DESKTOP OS WITH ALL THE OVERHEAD IT CARRIES (plus the added overhead and instability from jamming mobile features into it).

RE: LD2?
Surur @ 3/18/2006 1:28:21 PM # Q

Medevilenemy, you are starting to sound as rabid as kirvin. Of course there are UMPC standards. Things like 800x480 screen, 1 Ghz processor, 256 to 512 MB RAM, 7 inch screen size. The main standard is Windows XP, meaning compatibility with the millions of desktop apps.

I dont know who you have been listening to, but Windows XP is a great OS. Its stable and powerful. I wonder if you can explain exactly why you think POS Garnet is better than windows XP?

The days of selling the poorly specified LD for $500 is over. Get used to it.

Surur

They said I only argued for the sake of arguing, but after an hour I convinced them they were wrong...

RE: LD2?
Take1 @ 3/18/2006 2:07:43 PM # Q
I would be seriously surprised if Palm decided to throw more money on the LD line. They totally blew the first one with horrible RAM specs (went cheap) which cost them FAR, FAR, FAR, FAR, FAR more in lost sales than any savings from going cheap sh!t on the RAM chips.

They were stupid and it cost them BIG. There must be a huge backlog of new AND defective LD units in a warehouse someplace. This also hurts the credibility of Palm actually making any new device that doesn't compromise function for a higher profit margin.

Palm could make a hit LD if they decided on a bigger screen (6" - 7"), ditch the HD for Flash (doesn't need to be 4GB - 2 GB is O.K.), Don't go cheap on the RAM, Make it THIN, and work on getting exceptional battery life.

They could price it in the $499 - $500 range and it would be a seller.

If they dropped the Palm OS for whatever basic Linux shell they have now and included a PalmOS EMU to run apps as widgets and permits full-blown Linux apps to be used (Open Office, Firefox, etc.). This would be a serious Origami Killer. To make such a device CHEAP and at the same time make money is beyond Palm's (perhaps anyone's) capability right now. I

If the price for an Origami type device is above $500 - a cheap laptop with a larger screen, 512MB RAM, optical drive, and 40 GB hard drive will still makes more sense to the average consumer. If you can make the device small and thin and give it killer batt life, then you’re providing something that a cheap laptop cannot provide. Put out a P.O.S. like the first gen. Origami (3/4 the size of a full-blown tablet, thick as a brick, and only 2-3 hrs. batt. life) and you've might as well call the device 'failure 1.0' and notify the accountant you're going to have to write off a lot of dead inventory.


RE: LD2?
Surur @ 3/18/2006 2:31:20 PM # Q
I predict these will make it big.

http://surur.sytes.net/umpcbag.jpg

Surur

They said I only argued for the sake of arguing, but after an hour I convinced them they were wrong...

RE: LD2?
AdamaDBrown @ 3/18/2006 3:25:28 PM # Q
I don't see Palm building an Origami device. There just isn't the market for it. Take1 is right that most people will opt for a laptop over an Origami unless the latter is very cheap: impossibly cheap with current technology. People buy handhelds because they're easily portable, amongst other reasons, and you can't slip a 7" screen into a pocket.

Palm did put a lot of push behind the LD release, and the whole "mobile manager" hype, but I think whether we're going to see another LD depends on how much of a disaster it turned into on their end. If the sales and technical problems are bad enough, they'd be silly to go at it again.

Handheld Linux is as different from desktop Linux as Windows Mobile is from desktop Windows: they both share a lot of infrastructure between platforms, but that doesn't mean that they're compatible. Any Linux desktop program would still need to be ported to the mobile flavor.

RE: LD2?
medevilenemy @ 3/18/2006 6:08:32 PM # Q
Since when has WinXp been a good OS? Since when has it been either stable or powerful? I say this not as a linux or mac user (which i'm not) but as a PC power user who has been thoroughly aggrivated by the many quirks and weaknesses with Windows over the years.

An example of the instability of WinXP: (or perhaps a couple of examples)
In the past two weeks, my WinXP pro setup has become completely unresponsive numerous times as a result of... Repairing a network connection! Why should repairing a network connection crash windows? the answer: it shouldnt. During the time i've been running WinXP, i've had the Bootloader corrupt itself for no apparant reason, the task manager cease to function (temporarily) for no apparant reason, Windows itself crash because of using the Add/remove applications tool, and most entertainingly of all windows basically explode as a result of adding 512MB of new ram to the system (and no, the problem was not the RAM or the way I added the RAM).

Oddly enough, i havent seen the blue screen of death once...

As for winXP being powerful... an operating system is only as powerful as the applications that run on it. And i've seen many a Palm application that can easily trade blows with a windows application of the same funtionality. And do not claim that windows is more powerful graphically or in any way like because graphical/audio power is simply a function of a system's hardware and since the PalmOS and WinXP are built to serve two COMPLETELY DIFFERENT physical setups, they cannot be compared in this way.

Oh, and these "origami standards" of which you speak are not. They are simply the specifications chosen by the producers of the first gen Origami producers.

RE: LD2?
Surur @ 3/18/2006 7:06:41 PM # Q

Medevilenemy, a poor workman always blames his tools. WinXP is technically superior. Just because you are infested with spyware does not mean your OS is unstable. May I suggest you downgrade yourself from Administrator to Limited user? I also suggest you stay away from any screw driver. Opening the case is not for you.

Surur

They said I only argued for the sake of arguing, but after an hour I convinced them they were wrong...

RE: LD2?
PenguinPowered @ 3/18/2006 8:16:43 PM # Q
WinXP is technically superior.

You don't say to what, but as an OS designer of 30 years experience, here is my take on current operating systems and their relative 'superiority'.

WinXP is a reasonable single-user multi-tasking OS. It is stable if you stay away from the corners, but is very frustrating if you have to go near them.

But that's true of all the current generation of single-user multi-tasking OSes. and the stability claim can't really be made by the current generation of handheld OSes to anywhere near the same degree.

Is XP technically superior? In some ways. XP has two features lacking from other OSes which are relevant these days and which set it apart: 1) Excellent wifi support and 2) remote desktop. The second is a bit esoteric, but if you need it, it is very useful. The first is, hands down, XP's superiority lead.

But in some ways it is not. To a much lesser extent than previous M$ OSes, but still to a noticable extent, it suffers from the dll and registry fiascos, and, because M$ is the hacker target de jour, it's a barn with an open door to hackers.

XP's big problem moving down market in device specs is that the bloat is integral to the design. There's a reason why origami isn't already on the market in its full version, and that reason includes the difficulty of teasing XP into small parts and then tossing the parts that are not needed for a mobile device.



May You Live in Interesting Times

RE: LD2?
PenguinPowered @ 3/18/2006 8:31:28 PM # Q
do not claim that windows is more powerful graphically or in any way like because graphical/audio power is simply a function of a system's hardware and since the PalmOS and WinXP are built to serve two COMPLETELY DIFFERENT physical setups, they cannot be compared in this way.

Graphic and audio power is not simply a function of a system's hardware. Anyone who dual boots PCs has experienced the differences due to software.

The hardware is critical, and it's not fair to compare the two systems on aspects that PC hardware provides but handheld hardware does not, but on facilities that both hardware sets provide, it is fair to compare.

PalmOS has a very naive graphics software model that was specifically oversimplified for the hardware it originally ran on. That was a good choice, because it made it possible to run on cheaper hardware. But it was a hinderance to future growth because it doesn't work well in a multitasking environment.

Much of the work that went into cobalt was aimed at dealing with that deficiency. For various reasons that work has mostly been tabled and replaced by GTK and friends. But it should be fair to look at GTK and X-windows versus XP -- since they were designed for the same hardware and compare them.

The result is, um, interesting.


May You Live in Interesting Times

RE: LD2?
PenguinPowered @ 3/18/2006 8:47:31 PM # Q
Of course there are UMPC standards. Things like 800x480 screen, 1 Ghz processor, 256 to 512 MB RAM, 7 inch screen size. The main standard is Windows XP, meaning compatibility with the millions of desktop apps.

You might want to check your facts on this one. While M$, of course, claims that Win/XP is part of UMPC, you will find that Intel -- the actual originator of the 'category' does not.

By the way, M$ claims that UMPC's "standard" is XP tablet edition, which is not 100% compatible with XP-pro.

This is probably a good time to remind people that while M$ is extremely successful, it has a terrible record at introducing new products. Remember Bob?

My bet is the UMPC is going to turn out to be a perfect example of a category with no real market.

May You Live in Interesting Times

RE: LD2?
MegaManXcalibur @ 3/18/2006 9:24:19 PM # Q
Time for me to chime in...

The thing I have to laugh at is that these UMPCs competing with PDAs. These are two different classes of devices.

UMPC is a small Tablet PC, it uses desktop software, it doesn't have amazing battery life, and it's not much too large to carry around in your pocket.

A PDA on the other hand uses applications generally designed to be quick and easy to use, has batteries that generally last at least a couple of days under normal use (granted newer PDAs have much lower battery life then older ones but it's still far ahead of UMPCs), and they are small enough that you can just stuff them in a pants pocket and carry them with you.

For example if you want to add an appointment to your calander you can just pull out your PDA, turn it on, go into your calander application, and add the appointment. With a UMPC (or regular laptop) you have to pull it out of it's case, turn it one, wait for it to either come out of standby or boot up (depending on how you turned it off), and once the thing is finally going you can go into your calander application and add the appointment.

In this case getting the UMPC going is going to take much longer then turning on a PDA (you can probably have the appointment already added to your PDA before the UMPC is even fully booted up). You are going to have this time barrier whenever you want to look up a contact or any other form of information.

The only way you could use a UMPC for quick information input is if you only turned the screen off when it wasn't in use and left everything else going, and needless to say you're battery probably isn't going to last very long.

So the bottom line is that the LifeDrive and UMPC are different classes of devices, and the UMPC is not going to be a decent PDA replacement and won't be in direct competition with the LifeDrive or any other PDA.

RE: LD2?
AdamaDBrown @ 3/19/2006 1:13:21 AM # Q
ME, I'd have to say something's wrong with your PC if it's doing that. I run XP on both my laptop and desktop, the latter running 24/7/365, and I can't remember the last time one crashed, and I've done a lot more high-end things than repairing a network connection. I'd advise you perform a clean reinstall, and get some better AV and firewall software. I'm partial to CA eTrust and AtGuard, personally.

RE: LD2?
Surur @ 3/19/2006 6:34:02 AM # Q
The areas where Windows is superior to Linux is:

Driver support
Consistent applications UI
Simple familiar UI
Very good fonts
Enormous array of applications
Very good support amongst third parties
Very good power management (*important on laptops).
Better permissions system
Better management tools (Active Directory and Group Policy Objects)
Better support for other languages and localizations
.Net
Wireless Zero-con fig
Faster than Linux on comparable hardware
etc...

Funnily enough many of these advantages carry over to Windows Mobile e.g. driver support, third party support, consistent applications, localization, fonts etc. I understand the Linux on the Nokia 770 is unbearable slow (According to Mika Cane, that is)

Regarding UMPC, I believe it is a push from hardware vendors rather than MS, to get people who have a desktop and laptop already to buy a third PC. Obviously MS does not mind the extra money either. I'm not sure its a viable platform, but certainly there seem to be a lot of push and support amongst the hardware manufacturers, and even as you said Intel. They are trying to stimulate demand in a saturated environment, so I'm not sure they will just let this one die.

Surur

They said I only argued for the sake of arguing, but after an hour I convinced them they were wrong...

RE: LD2?
medevilenemy @ 3/19/2006 10:24:30 AM # Q
lol. My problem is not virii or spyware/adware. It is simply that my frequent tweaks to the system (not to mention my pathetic wifi connection) cause some instability.

Surur: i do agree that windows is superior to Linux (in general... it really depends on the distro and windowing system), but of course this is irrelevant because palm doesnt currently make linux based devices (although it is likely to begin doing so once "ALP" is complete). As for the advantages of WinXP carrying over to WinMob... that is simply nonsense. But again, this is irrelevant because we have been arguing about UMPC vs. LD not WinMob vs. PalmOS.

So Let's Get to the point...
My opinion, however flawed as it may be, is that the UMPC simply wont cause palm to lose any LD sales. If anything, it would increase LD sales simply because the two device types are of SIMMILAR functionality, and the LD is much cheaper than any UMPC is projected to be. In the end, though, the two device types will likely be independant from eachother's influence because they are of two different physical categories (Handheld vs Miniature Tablet), and have different targets (Power-Users/Business-Users/Multimedia-philes vs People with large amounts of free cash who like to watch video on a 5 or 7 inch screen).



RE: LD2?
Surur @ 3/19/2006 11:24:28 AM # Q
and have different targets (Power-Users/Business-Users/Multimedia-philes vs People with large amounts of free cash who like to watch video on a 5 or 7 inch screen).

I dont this is completely tue, in that I dont think some one with a UMPC will buy a LD, whereas many people seem to want to upgrade from a LD to UMPC e.g.

ri5* said

I own a LD and use it often.

To those that think UMPC, future iPods, and other similar devices are not competitors to the LifeDrive, never get into management or sales as you can't see the big picture. Mobile entertainment, computing. In that order.

I've long felt the Palm world was lacking and could have better sales if they'd implement the video out option (sans some klunky, expesive hack currently available). Sales presentations, teachers, business meetings, show the fam some pics; why take a laptop when you can just take your PDA?

VGA a must. Better web experience a must (browser and ease of connecting). Better battery a must. And can I have a USB plug slide out so I don't have to drag along an extra cable!

I too would prefer a non-HDD based device but see no way they'll implement a large cap CF card instead. (If there was a workable hack, I know many of you would do it!) You can play videos longer on an LD's SD card than you can on an iPod's HDD.

Even if the current gen of UMPC is not quite there it soon will be. If the LD 2 doesn't make some marked improvement, it is already dead. [IMHO, I agree with Antoine, adding 2GB to the HDD storage is meaningless to 97% of people looking for a mobile entertainment/computing experience when SD flash memory is getting so cheap.


http://www.1src.com/forums/showthread.php?p=905748#post905748

Surur

They said I only argued for the sake of arguing, but after an hour I convinced them they were wrong...

RE: LD2?
hkklife @ 3/19/2006 11:58:07 AM # Q
I still see the LD in its current iteration as NOTHING more than a POS PDA with a 4gb of *STORAGE*. It doesn't matter if it's internal flash, an SD card, a Microdrive, a CF card or anything else. There's no "concept" at work other than a HD that entails more compromises than its meagre storage capacity justifies.
LifeDrive is simply the T5 concept with a few more bells'n whistles added, a nicer casing, and a more primitive form of storage that offers a far more attractive $/mb ratio for Palm.

But the future is with user-provided storage for the same reason most new digicams don't come with an SD card and the same reason Sony is dropping the 32mb MS Pro Duo PSP bundle. It's also why if I were to buy a new Dell laptop today I'd get it with the cheapest 40gb HD standard and then add my own 100gb HD for $150 when Dell wants nearly that much to upgrade to an 80gb HD on their configurator.

The big OEMs (Dell, Compaq, Palm etc) try to pad their margins on storage (whether it be SD cards or HDs) and try to woo the customer with fast, cheap CPUs. Palm should try to add as much standard as possible to the LD2 or TX2 or whatever is forthcoming (dual SDIO slots, removable battery, voice recorder, 128mb program RAM) and let the users & the market dictate what sizes of SD cards are installed.

If anyone or anything is going to successfully going to take a bit out of the iPod's marketshare it's going to be from someone like Sandisk who has a 6-8gb flash MP3 player with an SD slot for expansion or someone like Cowon or Creative with a large HD alongside an SD slot for photo storage & expansion.

Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5-->TX

RE: LD2?
ath @ 3/19/2006 3:00:18 PM # Q
Mmmmm,
dual SDIO would be the best option, yes. Then it would stop all the unending complaining about the HD being laggy and fragile and the HD vs. flash argument. Cheap implementation for Palm, and max flexibility for users.

RE: LD2?
PenguinPowered @ 3/19/2006 6:55:36 PM # Q
The areas where Windows is superior to Linux is:

Driver support

I forgot to mention that one, but at a certain level it is definitely true.

Consistent applications UI

Not really. These days if you pick a linux distro and stick with one of Gnome or KDE, the application UI is as consistent as XP -- where M$ can't even remain consistent between IE and the office suite.

Simple familiar UI

Not really. Whether the UI is simple and familiar to you depends on how familiar you are with it. After 30 years, I still find CLI interfaces simpler and more familiar than GUIs, and I don't find either Windows GUI or Linux GUI have any advantage over the other.

Very good fonts

FreeType.

Enormous array of applications

That's not a measure of technical superiority, that's a measure of popularity. It's also difficult to get an accurate count on.

In some areas, windows shines. In others, most notably research, engineering and scientific applications, XP lags considerably. When it comes to the applications necessary to manage a large network, Linux wins hands down.

Very good support amongst third parties

That has not been my experience. YMMV. And if you're an enterprise user, you get Linux support from IBM, RedHat or SuSE. IBM tech support is, of course, legendary.

Very good power management (*important on laptops).

Not particularly good, no. Better power management than Linux, but that's damning it with faint praise.

Better permissions system

Definitely not true. Neither system is particularly good, and each has glaring flaws in areas where the other shines.

Better management tools (Active Directory and Group Policy Objects)

You might want to talk to people who've had to deploy AD before you describe it as "better". Quantitatively, in large organizations, my experience has been that you need roughly twice as many Windows support people to support the same number of users as you need Unix support people, so while the tools may look better on paper, they tend not to work better in practice.

Better support for other languages and localizations

Not true. It's a wash. Both systems have brute-force after-thought localization systems, each is about as hard to use as the other, and provides about the same level of support.

What may be true is that XP has been localized to more languages than Linux.

.Net

I thought you were listing advantages.

Wireless Zero-con fig

Wifi is better on XP, as I mentioned, but not zero-config. I've had plenty of problems with XP wifi configuration, especially dealing with roaming and WPA.

Faster than Linux on comparable hardware

At some things, not at others. In particular, XP is very poor at operations that require manipulating large numbers of files. Also, if you care about database performance, you don't put your databases on M$ systems.

etc...

Funnily enough many of these advantages carry over to Windows Mobile e.g. driver support, third party support, consistent applications, localization, fonts etc.

It has not been my experience as an embedded developer that either driver support or third party support was better.

In particular, driver support tends to be weak in both cases because devices are pretty customized, and third party addin support (tool chains, file systems, NAND) thend to be better for Linux or RTOSes than for Windows Mobile.

I understand the Linux on the Nokia 770 is unbearable slow (According to Mika Cane, that is)

That would not surprise me. The 770 has poor hardware for X windows. This is a signficant problem for maemo. Of course, I would imagine that win mobile would fall over on its face on that hardware for about the same reasons. It would be an interesting comparison.

Regarding UMPC, I believe it is a push from hardware vendors rather than MS, to get people who have a desktop and laptop already to buy a third PC.

To be precise, it's a push by Intel to shoulder aside non x86 embedded processors by competing head to head with them using LPIA x86 processors.

Obviously MS does not mind the extra money either. I'm not sure its a viable platform, but certainly there seem to be a lot of push and support amongst the hardware manufacturers, and even as you said Intel.

Well, it's hard to tell how much real support there is. Samsung tries everything, and drops what doesn't sell. ASUS is an odd duck in this. We'll have to see how many UMPC devices survive in the market place.

Intel, by the way, will be just as happy if UMPC devices run non-M$ OSes, so long as they sell Intel silicon.

They are trying to stimulate demand in a saturated environment, so I'm not sure they will just let this one die.

I agree that Intel will continue to push it. The other hardware players have pretty full plates though and I expect them to drop it like a hot potato if it doesn't do well quickly.


May You Live in Interesting Times

Windows XP simply DESTROYS the competition.
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 3/20/2006 1:23:38 AM # Q
The areas where Windows is superior to Linux is:

Driver support
Consistent applications UI
Simple familiar UI
Very good fonts
Enormous array of applications
Very good support amongst third parties
Very good power management (*important on laptops).
Better permissions system
Better management tools (Active Directory and Group Policy Objects)
Better support for other languages and localizations
.Net
Wireless Zero-con fig
Faster than Linux on comparable hardware
etc...

Funnily enough many of these advantages carry over to Windows Mobile e.g. driver support, third party support, consistent applications, localization, fonts etc. I understand the Linux on the is unbearable slow (According to Mika Cane, that is)

Regarding UMPC, I believe it is a push from hardware vendors rather than MS, to get people who have a desktop and laptop already to buy a third PC. Obviously MS does not mind the extra money either. I'm not sure its a viable platform, but certainly there seem to be a lot of push and support amongst the hardware manufacturers, and even as you said Intel. They are trying to stimulate demand in a saturated environment, so I'm not sure they will just let this one die.

Surur

Well said, Surur. Compared to Windows XP, Linux is a pathetic joke that remains all-but-useless to everyone except propeller hat-wearing geeks.

The Nokia 770 is rendered almost useless by its inadequate hardware. Their platform's lack of optimizations for its mobile device mission means we will see horrible performance until these devices start shipping with 800 - 1000 MHz processors. That's what happens when manufacturers try to brute force a square peg (Linux) into a round hole (mobile devices). Just ask Motorola what it thinks about the effectiveness/elegance of Linux on mobile devices.

The UMPC idea won't take off until these devices sprout keyboards and evolve into what will eventually be the new paradigm for mobile computing: micro laptops reminiscent of the original Toshiba Libretto. At that point, Microsoft will have all bases covered in its Windows Everywhere™ vision:

- Windows Mobile smartphones and not-so-smartphones
- WinCE embedded devices
- Specialized (e.g. vertical markets) Windows Mobile devices
- Windows microlaptops (running Real Windows™)
- Regular laptops
- Desktops
- Email servers providing "free" push email
- Servers

Meanwhile, much like Sony did with its CLIEs, UMPC manufacturers will essentially be selling beta hardware as they experiment with various configurations + wait for needed technology (battery power, CPU efficiency, displays, etc.) to reach a price point that will allow these devices to realize their potential.


TVoR


RE: LD2?
AdamaDBrown @ 3/20/2006 3:36:44 AM # Q
Regarding UMPC, I believe it is a push from hardware vendors rather than MS, to get people who have a desktop and laptop already to buy a third PC.

I'm not so sure about this. Bill Gates has repeatedly shown a tablet PC obsession (remember the "tablets will kill laptops" campaign?) and I have a hard time envisioning the manufacturers pushing something like this when they of all people should know it's impractical. It strikes me more that Microsoft and Intel are the drivers, trying to find another way to move software and chips, and the manufacturers hitching a ride on the hype, trying the design on for size. Samsung does everything once, and Asus (or is it Acer? Can't remember right now) wants to see if they'll sell in Asia.

Anyone see the new Gartner report on the UMPCs? Their conclusion is basically that the current devices are, as TVoR put it, beta hardware, and that they won't be practical for at least two years, if then.

RE: LD2?
Simony @ 3/22/2006 7:01:49 PM # Q
> Microsoft will have all bases covered in its Windows Everywhere™ vision

A grand vision indeed. But the reality is that they can't even get a WinCE/PPC/WinMob/whatever device to synchronise reliably with a Windows desktop, for crying out loud. They have tried and failed for 5 or 6 years to get ActiveSync to work and users still complain that it works only about 80% of the time. Before launching another campaign to conquer the world, it would be nice if they can get something as basic as desktop synchronisation to work properly.

RE: LD2?
PenguinPowered @ 3/23/2006 12:17:10 AM # Q
Just ask Motorola what it thinks about the effectiveness/elegance of Linux on mobile devices.

I did. They said it's not very elegant but that it's turning out to be effective.



May You Live in Interesting Times

Reply to this comment

Something going down at TreoCentral...

Surur @ 3/17/2006 2:11:02 PM # Q

Could be a confirmation of the release date of the Treo 700p on Sprint (or just another hoax :( )

http://discussion.treocentral.com/showthread.php?t=109861&page=1&pp=20


Surur

They said I only argued for the sake of arguing, but after an hour I convinced them they were wrong...

RE: Something going down at TreoCentral...
hkklife @ 3/17/2006 2:17:12 PM # Q
I am nearly certain it's another hoax. Those silly clowns at TreoCentral are frothing at the mouth over the 700p. If it's the real deal then Palm has become amazingly adept at keeping an ultra tight lid on any and all new product leaks.

Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5-->TX
RE: Something going down at TreoCentral...
Ryan @ 3/17/2006 2:24:34 PM # Q
Well that thread is just another hoax until there is some hard evidence provided :)

6+ pages of people saying prove it, is hardy something going down. Also, the poster says a 5/28 release date, which is a saturday! Cue the scent of fish.

RE: Something going down at TreoCentral...
Surur @ 3/17/2006 2:42:55 PM # Q
Eventually one of the rumors will have to be true ;) It doesn't pay to be too cynical. Look at that 130 post Engadget thread where they were abusing Narf and his photoshopping skills. Now everyone and their dog is running XP on the PowerMac. I'm sure a Treo 700p will come along eventually.

Surur

They said I only argued for the sake of arguing, but after an hour I convinced them they were wrong...

RE: Treo 700p release timing
Ryan @ 3/17/2006 3:02:24 PM # Q
You have to be very cynical when it comes to message board posts, and on some sites more than others ;)

I have full confidence in the treo 700p rumor recently reported here. Though I realize it does not name an exact date, we now have a indicator of the time frame.

RE: Something going down at TreoCentral...
hkklife @ 3/17/2006 3:25:50 PM # Q
Well, TreoCentral has truly sunk to new lows. I've never seen such outright senseless posting over NOTHING. Most web forums are populated by 15 year olds but in the case of TC it's a bunch of middle aged types acting like giddy teenagers. We're now up to EIGHT pages of nothing and counting.

I say, T|E3 & 700P announced next month with retail availability in May. Hollywood GSM Treo & 700w on Sprint this summer, Verizon or GSM 700p along with one final PDA this fall. Maybe a LifeDrive 2 somewhere in there as well.

If anything, the Origami annoucement might turn some interest TOWARDS the LifeDrive 2 (assuming Palm doesn't bungle it as badly as the first LD).



Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5-->TX

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