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Comments on: Palm Treo 700p on May 15th?

Rumor: Engadget is reporting that a "trusted source" provided them with a May 15th announcement date for the Palm Treo 700p.

This would again confirm earlier Palm OS Treo 700p rumors posted on PalmInfocenter over the past few months. To recap, pictures of the Sprint branded 700p were first leaked in February, a rumored release date came out in mid-March as well as a targeted Sprint launch timeframe.

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The rest of Palm's '06 roadmap is slowly coming into focus

hkklife @ 4/5/2006 4:35:10 PM # Q
I predict:

700p for Sprint in late May/early June.

700w for Sprint in August/Sept. No GSM version of the 700w.

Hollywood WinMob GSM only for Cingular, Orange etc. in August/Sept

Lowrider Palm OS CDMA only Sprint & Verizon in Sept/Oct

There are your four new Treos for '06 that Ed mentioned--700p, 700w, Hollywood, Lowrider. Two for POS, two for WinMob.

No new PDAs this year other than a mildy refreshed T|E3 sometime late this spring or early summer. I would not count on another LifeDrive at this point. At best we'll see a comprehensive ROM update for the TX addressing some of the lingering VersaMail/Blazer bugs & addresses some of the insufficient DBCache issues in certain apps like TomTom Navigator.

Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5-->TX

RE: The rest of Palm's '06 roadmap is slowly coming into focus
Surur @ 4/5/2006 5:00:59 PM # Q

I think Lowrider will be GSM. It will give Palm a phone to sell worldwide (instead of just US) and into markets where 3G is still not rolled out.

Surur

They said I only argued for the sake of arguing, but after an hour I convinced them they were wrong...

RE: The rest of Palm's '06 roadmap is slowly coming into focus
hkklife @ 4/5/2006 5:06:13 PM # Q
If Lowrider is THAT basic, Surur, maybe two versions? Lowrider CDMA and Lowrider GSM? No EVDO, no EDGE, NO UMTS....well, maybe EDGE but certainly nothing warranting ANY R&D $ thrown at FrankenGarnet. This will just be a repackaging of the Treo 600 + the Z22's screen and memory architecture. Yawn.



Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5-->TX

RE: The rest of Palm's '06 roadmap is slowly coming into focus
rsc1000 @ 4/6/2006 2:26:48 AM # Q
R & D costs for FrankenGarnet on EVDO and UMTS> You and others here seem to be under some sort of strange impression that: Windows Mobile = 'more advanced' = able to handle faster networks. What is your logic here?? Outsourcing or developing protocol software / hardware implementations to replace ONE FREAKIN layer of the protocol stack (yes - an importnat layer - but most work is really on the network/carrier side) is not like splitting the atom for the first time. Honestly - this on-going 'OMG! Palm OS will need to be sliced side-ways-to-sunday in order to deal with a new network standard!' - is based on complete rubish! Do you know how much of a 'hack' of the OS is involved to enable EVDO versus another carrier protocol??? No more of a hack what-so-ever: it is simply ANOTHER carrier network standard/protocol that involves - relative to to current technology - as much work/cost as going to gsm or cdma did (i.e. replacing the hardware layer of the tcp protocol stack as far as the OS is concerned). Sure it takes coin - but that is not directly relational to the speed of the network.

RE: The rest of Palm's '06 roadmap is slowly coming into focus
cervezas @ 4/6/2006 8:59:21 AM # Q
rsc1000 wrote:
You and others here seem to be under some sort of strange impression that: Windows Mobile = 'more advanced' = able to handle faster networks. What is your logic here?

The logic as I understand it has nothing to do with support for networking protocols. You're right that that is fairly trivial. It has to do with the UMTS standard requiring simultaneous voice and data operation. Garnet has a preemptive multitasking kernel, so you can spawn the processes you need to handle voice and data networking at the same time. So far so good. The problem comes when you need to control those processes from the single UI thread that Garnet offers. You're downloading a file and talking to someone on the phone: how do you hang up the call and continue the download when the application framework can't expose these multiple threads? Apps in Palm OS run as subroutines of a single UI Application Shell, which makes it pretty near impossible to give two applications control over the networking streams they are using at the same time. Garnet can't run two applications at the same time.

Yes, Garnet could be hacked to accomplish this. But it would be a massive undertaking, probably with lots of new APIs that existing apps would need to exercise to play nicely with the system. Given that Palm can license a modern multitasking commercial Linux system, add some framework components and applications to it and an emulator like PalmSource has done, you have to wonder if that doesn't start to seem like the better way to go.

All this is my understanding based on my experience as an application developer for Palm OS, Windows Mobile, and other operating systems. I'm not an OS architecture expert, so my suppositions about the level of work that this Garnet hack would require should be taken with some skepticism. But I feel pretty safe in saying that the work to get Garnet complying with UMTS would be substantial, not just for Palm but for 3rd party developers.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: The rest of Palm's '06 roadmap is slowly coming into focus
hkklife @ 4/6/2006 9:25:43 AM # Q
*points finger at David Beers*

He started it!

;-)

Seriously, the long-standing scuttlebut around here has always been that Palm either "lifted" the EVDO stack off of the carcass of Cobalt and/or had to hack their own solution into the Treo 650.

The main reason that I've always heard (and this has been voiched for by folks far more technically minded than myself such as Beersie) is that the single-tasking, single-threaded limitations of FrankenGarnet (background MP3 playback aside) are ill-suited for the requirements of UMTS. UMTS has stricter requirements for running background processes etc. than rev. 1 of EVDO or EDGE--both supposedly better "bolt on" solutions as far as POS 5.x integration is concerned.

Besides, there are fewer UMTS-supporting handsets out there than there are EDGE or EVDO hardware...and the initial chipsets were supposedly larger than equivalent EVDO ones at the time so that might make it ill-suited for shoehorning into existing Treo formfactor molds.

Anyone in the know, please feel free to correct me. I am just passing along things as I've heard 'em and been told.

Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5-->TX

RE: The rest of Palm's '06 roadmap is slowly coming into focus
rsc1000 @ 4/6/2006 3:07:49 PM # Q
Well folks - maybe i am wrong here. But on current treos the voice / radio functionality happens simulataneous to application functionality. Voice is not really an app that runs in the OS - though the Phone app UI is. In other words: the treo 600/650s allow you to be on a call and look up a memo or datebook entry, or whatever, at the same time. You leave the phone UI to do so - though the Treo call-answer / call-end hard buttons still provide control over the voice hardware / circuits / functionality.
With UMTS it should be the same; no need to modify the Palm OS UI application framework to "give two applications control over the networking streams they are using at the same time." - the voice is implemented via a seperate hardware sub-system.

>>You're downloading a file and talking to someone on the phone: how do you hang up the call and continue the download when the application framework can't expose these multiple threads?

So given my above understanding - as i said, maybe i don't get something here - you'd press the call-end button. currently - palm OS Treos can handle ending a voice call while displaying another app right? Same difference - except that app can be a network app.

Again - my understanding assumes a seperate sub-system that handle voice. Am I wrong? I don't actually own treo and have only briefly used one so perhaps i am missing something that is obvious to those in the know and am making incorrect assumptions about the design and functionality.

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Any new GSM phones coming soon?

jbeedham @ 4/5/2006 4:45:55 PM # Q
I want a new GSM Treo but it appears everything is going for Sprint and Verizon. I prefer phones based on the worldwide standard GSM instead of the proprietary phones Sprint and Verizon use.

-------------------------------------------------------
Proud owner of a Sony TJ-37!
RE: Any new GSM phones coming soon?
hkklife @ 4/5/2006 5:00:45 PM # Q
Hollywood. Antenna-less, thinner, and more stylish Treo. Coming soon for GSM networks exclusively.

Oh wait did you mean POS GSM Treos?

Sorry, I think that particular combination has been EOL'd.

The last of the 650s may be your best bet. OF course it's entirely possible that a GSM variant of the Lowrider may be released but by all indications that's going to be an ugly low-end phone...probably a 160*160 screen lifted from the Z22 and 32mb NVFS memory...no advantages whatsoever other than a newer OS over the Treo 650. No EDGE, no UMTS, NO EVDO.

I think the difficulty with a new POS GSM Treo aries in the utter inability to shoehorn a UMTS stack into FrankenGarnet. That said, Palm should've released a Treo 670 exclusive model for GSM networks last year with nothing more than 64mb RAM and a slightly newer OS/apps. It'd make made for a nice stopgap model in lieu of an actual GSM 700p.

Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5-->TX

RE: Any new GSM phones coming soon?
AdamaDBrown @ 4/5/2006 5:35:07 PM # Q
I'd expect a GSM version of the 700p, but probably not for several months at least after the release of the 700p on Sprint.

RE: Any new GSM phones coming soon?
hkklife @ 4/5/2006 6:42:32 PM # Q
Adama;

Who would want it, aside from Cingular in the USA? T-Mobile is pretty much a no-show when it comes to POS-they completely passed on the 650. European customers are very fussy as far as the styling & size of their phones are concerned and that's who the Hollywood is primarily intended for. There's just one major UK carrier (Orange) currently offers the 650, right? So that leaves the rest of the world (secondary markets at best-Oceania, continental Europe, Central & South America etc) excluding Asia where anything with an antenna that big would be ridiculed.

Also, can Palm get away with another EDGE-only POS device? Isn't everyone clamoring for UMTS handsets by this point?

Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5-->TX

RE: Any new GSM phones coming soon?
Bill Westwood @ 4/6/2006 3:42:12 AM # Q
As a fussy european customer, I really want to see a GSM/3G version of the Treo. The potential smartphone market in Europe is larger than that in the USA (larger population) and Palm would do well to break into this market. There are 2 carriers in the UK offering the Treo in fact (Orange & Vodafone).

Bill

RE: Any new GSM phones coming soon?
pascanu @ 4/6/2006 6:42:56 AM # Q
>As a fussy european customer, I really want to see a GSM/3G >version of the Treo. The potential smartphone market in Europe is >larger than that in the USA (larger population) and Palm would do >well to break into this market.
>Bill

I totaly agree.

I also think Europe is much (more?) interested in "gadgets" and a 3G Treo would sell very well. The Treo keyboard is what almost all smartphones sold in Europe lack, and a data-centric phone (email, web, e-banking, IM etc.) greatly benefits from such a keyboard. I was a big fan of Grafitti and thought keyboards are a stupid thing, that was until I bought my Treo.

Handspring Visor -> m505 -> Zire71 -> Zire72 -> Treo650

RE: Any new GSM phones coming soon?
vks3 @ 4/6/2006 11:20:09 AM # Q
I'm also dying to get a Palm OS Treo, no Windows Mobile for me. I also need GSM as I do a ton of international travel.

When do you think the 700p in GSM would come out? Maybe August? It's taking all of my will power to not get a 650!

-Vik

RE: Any new GSM phones coming soon?
batmon @ 4/6/2006 3:32:13 PM # Q
I want GSM too but GSM won't do EVDO. I heard EDGE is slow and has lots of porblems. So either go with the speed or the globalization.

I guess I will get a 700p with EVDO first so I can be happy in US. I will then get the Treo GSM version in Auguest, unlock it, so I can use it in other countries. If the only difference between Treo 650 GSM and the new Treo GSM is the EDGE, then I will buy a unlocked treo 650 GSM since it will be even cheaper then.

RE: Any new GSM phones coming soon?
cervezas @ 4/6/2006 3:41:06 PM # Q
GSM has its own 3G standard that is comparable to (maybe a little better than) EVDO. It's called HSDPA and it's being rolled out fairly quickly in this country (Cingular) and around the world. So, yeah, EVDO is the best bet for wireless broadband right now, but it's not long going to be the case that you can "either go with the speed or the globalization."

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog
RE: Any new GSM phones coming soon?
AdamaDBrown @ 4/6/2006 6:55:12 PM # Q
When do you think the 700p in GSM would come out? Maybe August?

(Shrug) Usually, the GSM version of a Treo shows up around 4-6 months after the CDMA version. No idea whether that will hold up on these, or what, but that's the previous pattern.

I want GSM too but GSM won't do EVDO. I heard EDGE is slow and has lots of porblems. So either go with the speed or the globalization.

EDGE speed is anywhere from 60 to 180 Kbits per second depending on conditions. Averages usually fall into the 100-150 range. It's not the 400 Kbits of EVDO, but it's not that bad.

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LD

medevilenemy @ 4/5/2006 5:13:12 PM # Q
My prediction (however erroneous it will almost certainly be):
Treo 700p Announced May 15th as expected
LifeDrive2 (or whatever its name will be) hard-launched at at the same time
"Hollywood" and "Lowrider" both to be released in october.

RE: LD
Tamog @ 4/6/2006 8:25:53 AM # Q
Hi,
the LifeDrive apperently already is beeing crapped. Amazon Germany currently sels thge box for just 229...

Amazon already handled the "crapping" of the WristPDA, so it is very possible that they are clearing stock for the new LD...

Best regards
Tam Hanna

Find out more about the Palm OS in my blog:
http://tamspalm.tamoggemon.com

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Still upset

vesther @ 4/5/2006 5:58:51 PM # Q
I'm still upset that the Treo 700 first came out as a Windows Mobile-powered device for Verizon Wireless. Now the Treo 700 is going to come up as a Garnet-powered device for Sprint. I just wished that the Treo 700 would've been released sooner and to be on the Palm OS Garnet plate rather than releasing a 700 model with Windows Mobile for Verizon Wireless networks.

I just wish that Verizon would release a Palm OS version of the 700 as well. As an avid Palm-powered aficionado, I am just irritated about the fact that Verizon chose Windows Mobile over Palm OS, a move that caused me to go away from Verizon Wireless.

Unless Verizon releases a version of the Palm Treo 700 with Palm OS Garnet, I won't be going back to Verizon sooner or later.

Powered by Palm OS since March 2002

RE: Still upset
rkevwill @ 4/5/2006 9:30:48 PM # Q
Verizon continues to disable functions on all kinds of phones. I personally can't understand why anyone that wants any phone with bluetooth or data, would use verizon. Their data plans are SO expensive, and their phones (and pda's) are crippled. I switched to Sprint for my treo 600, but stayed with verizon for my wife's and daughters regular phones.

Today I called Sprint, because my contract is up tomorrow. They emailed me an offer to re-up, and when I mentioned I wanted to wait till the new treo came out, she knew exactly what I was talking about. She mentioned "Oh you mean the Treo 700P. It will be out the last couple days of May, or first week of June. She knew all this without any coaching, so either she reads the palm sites, or she already has the info. She did tell me, I get the same $150 off the new treo, with a 2 year contract. I joked with her about them coming out priced at $700, she laughed, and said it will be more than the 650 is now, but not THAT expensive.

Can't wait, need to upgrade the 600 to the 700p!

RE: Still upset
Simony @ 4/5/2006 9:46:32 PM # Q
> I just wished that the Treo 700 would've been released sooner and to be on the Palm OS Garnet plate rather than releasing a 700 model with Windows Mobile for Verizon Wireless networks.

I'm with you. I guess it's possible that VZW paid for some of Palm's development costs on the 700w in return for an exclusivity period. Who knows?

RE: Still upset
palmpilotdoc @ 4/5/2006 10:46:06 PM # Q
I think this may be the final straw for me as well. I've been with verizon for many years. However, 1) their unlimited data plan is just too expensive and 2) I really need the increased memory in the 700p. Despite the fact that many apps can now reside on the SD card, there are just some app- many medical apps- that need to be in RAM.

Unless I have a sense that Verizon may release the 700p within 2-4 months after Sprint, I'm planning to switch. And I think it's quite unlikely they will be doing that.

RE: Still upset
drw @ 4/5/2006 10:59:13 PM # Q
I'm not excited about the 700p because it is not a ground breaking, earth shattering device. Both the hardware and software are leftovers. In a kitchen, serving the same leftovers day after day pretty much guarantees that one won't be able to give the leftovers for free because no one will want them. Thus the leftovers get tossed in the garbage.

I'm ready to switch to wmob out of sheer boredom, but gosh, then there's the resolution hit from 320x320 to 240x240.

If I were CEO of Palm, first day I would call a meeting and sketch out my orders:

-borrow the thumpad design from the latest blackberry
-have music fidelity rival an ipod
-put extra functionality (java, flash, plugins, etc) into web browser so it can stream anything, login anywhere, and load any page.
-have games that rival playstation portable, not just sudoku or bejeweled

---
David

RE: Still upset
d_aveFromCA @ 4/6/2006 1:32:58 AM # Q
Durn, i think i want one, but do i want to switch to Sprint? Only time will tell...

RE: Still upset
hkklife @ 4/6/2006 9:38:28 AM # Q
Worst case scenario is that the 700p will be a Sprint exclusive since Verizon has given up on POS and some enterprising Shadowmite types will "Verizonize" their Sprint 700Ps.

Remember the old "Verizonized" Treos when Verizon was so late to the Treo party, the Alltel -> Verizon V3c and the limited run Sony-Ericsson CDMA handset? It CAN be done!


Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5-->TX

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Encryption on the 700p, please.

timepilot84 @ 4/6/2006 6:24:32 PM # Q
If Palm is really gunning for the Enterprise, they really need to add the encyption scheme available to the TX and LD to the Treo line. I was hoping that the 700w would have solid data encryption, now that WM5 allows an OEM to implement that, but it appears that isn't the case.


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TREO 700W

dragon7 @ 4/9/2006 8:02:04 AM # Q
im a nooby but is it possible to unlock a verizon 700W cdma to use it on a sprint network?

RE: TREO 700W
AdamaDBrown @ 4/9/2006 2:42:44 PM # Q
CDMA phones can't be unlocked as such. To get them on another network, you have to get the carrier to activate them. Sprint *might* be willing to do this out of the box, or you might need to be tricky. The latter would mean that you'd have to edit the ESN, the serial number of your Treo 700w, to something that Sprint would let on their network--say, the serial number of a decommissioned Treo 650 or 600.

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