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Comments on: Walled Garden vs Open Plain Strategies Debate

The Wharton School of Business at the University of Pennsylvania has posted an interesting article on the differing approaches of mobile technology companies. Earlier this summer they had another article on the Foleo announcement, which spawned a good debate here. This most recent article takes on the merits and motivations behind having open or closed development approach to products. The author cites a number of recent and past examples including Palm and Apple.

In building walled gardens with its devices, Apple is making a calculated gamble that it can delight consumers enough that they won't opt for products and services that offer more flexibility, says Kendall Whitehouse, Wharton's senior director for information technology. In contrast, firms that take a more flexible approach are often said to be employing what could be called an "open-plain" or "open-architecture" strategy. They are betting that, by allowing their offerings to be extended or customized by others, they will encourage the growth of an "ecosystem" of complementary products and services, thus increasing the size and value of the market for everyone.

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the author appears to be naive about the tech side

SeldomVisitor @ 9/6/2007 4:00:37 PM # Q
Though the author(s) talk "open" they completely ignore a major tech reason for "closed" - reliability - and actually cite Treos as being open.

Apple doesn't need to follow THAT model!

Giggle.

RE: the author appears to be naive about the tech side
pmjoe @ 9/6/2007 4:21:26 PM # Q
Palm's reliability issues are mostly grounded in the history and architecture of the OS: a mostly open memory model, no security/access controls, etc. Your generalization is naive.

RE: the author appears to be naive about the tech side
SeldomVisitor @ 9/6/2007 4:29:03 PM # Q
No, PALM's reliability problems (external to the virgin device, of course) are due to wild poor development by those trying to make a quick buck using poor-to-worse programming. Assuming the virgin device CAN be programmed "correctly", and by all appearances the PALM virgin devices have on occasion been programed correctly (thus proving they can be), then tight control of the third-party "development" would have stopped the bad software right up front.


RE: the author appears to be naive about the tech side
pmjoe @ 9/6/2007 7:00:34 PM # Q
Yawn. Sure, tight controls (and testing) over user installed software "could" protect a system, but virtually no program of any scale is without bugs. Safari is a buggy piece of crap code, it crashes all the time on my Mac (and exhibits all kinds of other weird behaviors), from reports I've seen it crashes on the iPhone all the time too. What protects the Mac/iPhone from being unreliable with Safari? Well, a modern memory management model protects the system from getting clobbered by a poorly written program. Palm doesn't have it. A modern security model protects the system files, devices and memory from rogue apps accessing things they shouldn't. Palm doesn't have it. What happens on a device with a modern memory and security model? The app crashes and drops out to the application launcher or the system gives you a warning about the badly behaving app. The underlying system is untouched. On the Palm, well memory or files inside or outside of the current program space get corrupted. If you're lucky, it's within the current program and just it crashes. If you're unlucky, it's hosed something in the system (or your other app's data) which may show up today or a week from now, and hopefully it's something that will correct itself on a reset. I'm done with the OS lesson. Take a class in it if you feel the need to call people naive.

RE: the author appears to be naive about the tech side
SeldomVisitor @ 9/6/2007 7:15:09 PM # Q
Giggle.

RE: the author appears to be naive about the tech side
atrizzah @ 9/6/2007 8:33:32 PM # Q
I'm not sure if SeldomVisitor is just trolling or not, and I'm not sure if by "virgin device", he just means device with no added software, but if so, I'd definitely disagree. My Treo 680 is horribly unstable, and I haven't added any apps that didn't come with it in the box

Peace Out
Alan
RE: the author appears to be naive about the tech side
Poopie @ 9/6/2007 10:33:17 PM # Q

Assuming the virgin device CAN be programmed "correctly", and by all appearances the PALM virgin devices have on occasion been programed correctly (thus proving they can be), then tight control of the third-party "development" would have stopped the bad software right up front.

There's a difference between poorly coded apps and bugs in the OS that need to be coded around. Palm's apps are as susceptible to their own OS bugs as anyone else's.

USR Palm Pilot 1000 --> Palm Pilot Professional --> TRG SuperPilot --> Palm IIIc --> Palm V --> Palm M505 --> Palm M515 --> Tungsten T|2 --> Treo 600 --> LifeDrive --> iPhone
RE: the author appears to be naive about the tech side
hkklife @ 9/7/2007 12:52:25 AM # Q
For the record, guys, SV's stated here a few times before that the last (only?) Palm OS device he used/owned was a IIIe which he shelved because it did not have flash ROM and thus could not have its OS upgraded like the Palm III.

Were he to use a modern FrankenGarnet atrocity like a "virgin" T5, "virgin" Treo 650, "virgin" LifeDrive or "virgin" 700p, he'd find that things have become FAR more crash-prone over the past decade. But that circa 1998 perspective is probably where his comments are coming from.

Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5-->TX-->Treo 700P

RE: the author appears to be naive about the tech side
twrock @ 9/7/2007 2:10:23 AM # Q
What?!!! You mean that SV might be mostly blowing smoke out of an unsightly orifice most of the time he's posting here? Shocking!

Giggle.


Thinking about Vista? Think again: http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/pubs/vista_cost.txt
Want an alternative? Try this: http://www.ubuntu.com/ or http://www.mepis.org/

RE: the author appears to be naive about the tech side
Nycran @ 9/7/2007 5:49:42 AM # Q
The BSD family of operating systems are both open and stable. It does not hold that open must mean unstable.

RE: the author appears to be naive about the tech side
SeldomVisitor @ 9/7/2007 7:01:17 AM # Q
> ...SV's stated here a few times before that the last (only?) Palm OS
> device he used/owned was a IIIe which he shelved because it did not
> have flash ROM and thus could not have its OS upgraded like the Palm III....

I did!?


RE: the author appears to be naive about the tech side
SeldomVisitor @ 9/7/2007 7:07:22 AM # Q
> ...It does not hold that open must mean unstable.

Did anyone say that?

I think what the first poster in this thread said was along the line of:

== "You make a system closed to retain tight control over bad
== software, something the author(s) of the article completely
== ignored for their own reasons"

--------------

BTW - since folks like coming up with irrelevant "counterexamples"...my Ubuntu installation is the LEAST stable Linux I've installed - not only does Firefox regularly crash (nicely alone) but the whole system itself freezes irretrievably requiring hard-reset-with-a-button-push.

Way open, way unstable.

[and, yes, that many-times-now-mentioned "countercounterexample" IS totally irrelevant - but it IS a countercounterexample!]


RE: the author appears to be naive about the tech side
SeldomVisitor @ 9/7/2007 8:58:08 AM # Q
My apologies - I was being too nice. Let me reword this:

> ...my Ubuntu installation is the LEAST stable Linux I've installed...

to

> ...my Ubuntu installation is the LEAST stable OS I've installed (*)...

Yeah, it's still irrelevant, but at least it's now more correct.

Giggle.

======
(*) When I was modifying "the lab's" UNIX back during grad school days (Version 7? - 1977-ish) running on a PDP11/45 there were times when it was less stable than the Ubuntu mentioned above (**) - but it wasn't meant to be a public distribution at that moment. It was, of course, an "open" system (one of the first?).

======
(**) Writing a device driver for a trackball was my main lesson in creating an unstable system - VERY limited memory resources and a need to capture X/Y coordinates from a special device as they streamed (parallel, not serial) out of the device - I forget now but probably something like 12 bits (one 16bit word) for each coordinate axis. Spin the trackball quickly and the whole system came to a thudding halt. Used a fairly-large-for-the-time circular buffer to store the coordinates in an attempt to limit the memory footprint (when physical memory was something like 18-bit-addressable bytes long, max).

RE: the author appears to be naive about the tech side
twrock @ 9/7/2007 10:39:30 AM # Q
my Ubuntu installation is the LEAST stable OS I've installed

Then why are you still be using it? There are only about half a million other opensource/free OS's. If one doesn't play nice with your configuration, switch. Or install Vista; I hear it's rock solid.


Thinking about Vista? Think again: http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/pubs/vista_cost.txt
Want an alternative? Try this: http://www.ubuntu.com/ or http://www.mepis.org/
RE: the author appears to be naive about the tech side
SeldomVisitor @ 9/7/2007 10:49:33 AM # Q
The machine is a 600MHz PIII that ran a licensed copy of Windows XP Pro. It had a disk crash. After reinstall and restore-from-backup the XP was somewhat unusable in general (just usable by admin, pretty much - probably my fault for playing around with who had admin rights). Then the TNT Ultra video card started to fail (horizontal gray stripes - apparently a well-known failure for this particular video chip set due to heat, probably). Installing a new video card broke due to the broken XP restore. At that point I said "This is an old machine; I don't need XP for it anyway since it's used pretty much for surfing; okay, let's retire it and install Linux as I do with all 'retired' machines; don't want to install RedHat again, let's try something new; Ubuntu looks fine; Okay, install it; Crap, no wireless". It took awhile to install working encrypted wireless. But something in all this created a system that freezes entirely on occasion simply due to web site visited (Engadget s a guaranteed freeze).

Since it's a retired system Vista, even if it COULD run on it, was not an option.

RE: the author appears to be naive about the tech side
Poopie @ 9/7/2007 1:14:30 PM # Q

my Ubuntu installation is the LEAST stable OS I've installed

I call shenanigans on this. If you really feel this way, I'm willing to bet you either have:

1) a botched/hacked/old/bleeding edge installation
2) faulty hardware/proprietary drivers
3) you're using a less-than-solid feature in Ubuntu (compiz or beryl?)
4) all your other OSes you've installed are SPARC Solaris servers that have been running solidly for 10 years without a hitch


USR Palm Pilot 1000 --> Palm Pilot Professional --> TRG SuperPilot --> Palm IIIc --> Palm V --> Palm M505 --> Palm M515 --> Tungsten T|2 --> Treo 600 --> LifeDrive --> iPhone

RE: the author appears to be naive about the tech side
SeldomVisitor @ 9/7/2007 1:16:08 PM # Q
Yeah, but that's just because you're stupid.

Search here for "Ubuntu virgin wireless".

Giggle.

RE: the author appears to be naive about the tech side
SeldomVisitor @ 9/7/2007 1:20:33 PM # Q
Better yet, just read this thread:

-- http://www.palminfocenter.com/comments/8841/#135967

Reply to this comment

Apples iPod touch... See ya Palm!

CADJedi @ 9/6/2007 4:29:07 PM # Q

Well, its official... Apple finally did what Palm has been unwilling to do for the last two years... RELEASE A NEW PDA! It seems that Apple still believes there is a market for a small/thin mobile computing, non-phone, device with a large screen and loads of memory.

Hmmm, I wonder who could have possible predicted that users could still want a device like this??... oh, I don't know... like EVERYBODY on the PIC forums for the last 2 years! Everybody EXCEPT Palms management!!

I have been a loyal Palm user for 10 years and have purchased over 10 PDA's in that time! Well I'm tired of being ignored and told that what I "really" want is a Treo.

Sorry Palm but when the iPod touch is available, I'm buying. Consider me gone.

RE: Apples iPod touch... See ya Palm!
freakout @ 9/6/2007 7:19:54 PM # Q
Until Apple open it up to third-parties, it ain't a PDA: just a fancy iPod with a web browser. Which is a huge shame, 'cause the hardware is lovely.
RE: Apples iPod touch... See ya Palm!
VampireLestat @ 9/6/2007 7:39:39 PM # Q
CAdjedi, yeah and I'm gone to the HP 210 Classic w/vga.
Foleo canceling was the last straw that broke the camel's back.

RE: Apples iPod touch... See ya Palm!
jca666us @ 9/6/2007 7:59:16 PM # Q
>Until Apple open it up to third-parties, it ain't a PDA: just a fancy iPod with a web
>browser. Which is a huge shame, 'cause the hardware is lovely.

You can certainly develop web-enabled apps. for it - it's not as closed off as you say.

I do think they dropped the ball leaving an email client out.

RE: Apples iPod touch... See ya Palm!
twrock @ 9/6/2007 9:17:23 PM # Q
I do think they dropped the ball leaving an email client out.

They left out too many things. An open platform with a SDK would fill the gaps very quickly. But for all the wishful thinking about it, there isn't one and there hasn't been one announced. That is exactly why many of us who have used Palm devices will not be buying an iPod Touch. Obviously though, many will (or will jump to HP or some other device).


Thinking about Vista? Think again: http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/pubs/vista_cost.txt
Want an alternative? Try this: http://www.ubuntu.com/ or http://www.mepis.org/
RE: Apples iPod touch... See ya Palm!
PacManFoo @ 9/6/2007 10:42:06 PM # Q
Until Apple open it up to third-parties, it ain't a PDA: just a fancy iPod with a web browser.

What?

It's got Calendar, Contacts, Notes. Not to mention being an awesome music and movie device.

Personal Digital Assistant. Sounds like a PDA to me. Just because it may not do exactly what you want a PDA to do doesn't mean that it's not a PDA. I almost never input data into my TX. Calendar syncs with iCal, Contacts sync with Address Book and most of my documents are just copied from my Mac to the SD card for reference purposes. The other things I use my TX for? Music, Video and Web Browsing. Sure Palm offers tons of software but after 10 years of using Palms I still use basically the same 6 or 7 apps for the most part. Datebk 6 because Palm can't put out a decent datebook. DayNotez which I think could be replaced on iPod Touch using the online Pogonotes. Splash ID, don't know what I will do here. I use tealdoc for documents and they are text files so the notes application should work here. SmartList is probably the one app I will have a hard time without, again not sure what I will do here yet although it would be simple to make my own web apps to do what I would need. I for one can't wait to get my new PDA, the iPod Touch.

PDA's Past and Present:
iPod Touch ???? Maybe soon.
Palm - IIIxe, Vx, M500, M505, Tungsten T, TX
Handspring - Edge, Platinum, Deluxe
Sony - SJ22
Apple - MP110, MP2000, MP2100

RE: Apples iPod touch... See ya Palm!
rmhurdman @ 9/6/2007 10:57:10 PM # Q
Thank you all for a very vivid example of the exact debate the article refers to. To paraphrase the debate:
"Apple's stable because it's closed to developers"
"It's not really closed"
"Apple will never be good enough until it's open"
"Palm is great because it's open"
"It's not good enough because it's not stable"

What you all seem to have missed is the point of the article. Palm was smart to open up to developers, whatever other problems they may have. And just because they're open, doesn't mean they couldn't build a stable OS (or product). The example they give is the Mac: it started out closed, but had to open up to developers (and embrace standards) to even survive. And, if the recent TV ads are credible, it's a very stable system. Palm could learn from that.The author also implies that the iPhone (and iPod) will eventually have to either open up to third-party developers or lose market share. If Palm can pull off an amazing new OS, it will push Apple to offer an SDK. So I hope it happens because everyone will benefit.

I hope you all enjoyed the article.

RE: Apples iPod touch... See ya Palm!
twrock @ 9/7/2007 12:03:25 AM # Q
What you all seem to have missed is the point of the article.

Actually, I think you missed the point of my post (assuming that your use of the word "all" is intentional). I am merely pointing out the current situation that the iPod Touch does not have a SDK (not an open plain) and wishing/believing/hoping it will be is only that: wishful thinking.

I'm just reacting to the people who are trying to tell us that the iPhone WILL be open. Maybe, but it isn't yet and there is no official word about when that will be. If that happens, my interest will be raised significantly.


Thinking about Vista? Think again: http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/pubs/vista_cost.txt
Want an alternative? Try this: http://www.ubuntu.com/ or http://www.mepis.org/

RE: Apples iPod touch... See ya Palm!
LiveFaith @ 9/7/2007 12:08:46 AM # Q
Great article and nice depth.

BTW, when I saw the iPod touch announcement I instantaneously thot about the dozens and dozens and dozens of posts on PIC for the past several years asking exactly for such a thing. It looks like Apple has played it smart and watched intently while Palm's atrocious management has fumbled the ball all over the field for 6-8 years. No, the touch is not yet as mature as the "open" Palm OS economy. But boy how it seems like they are actually listening, creating cutting edge devices, and laying a veeeery large foundation for the future mobile device market.

Meanwhile back at the home of the Palm Pilot revolution, we have just decided to indefinitely (eternally?!?) postpone the biggest Palm idea of all time and consolidate on only one Linux distro, coming in the indeterminite (eternal?!?) future. Wow, how encouraging.

Pat Horne

iPod Touch
vorlon @ 9/7/2007 7:50:06 AM # Q
It's got Calendar, Contacts, Notes.

Does it even have Notes? There's Calendar, Contacts, Clock & Calculator on the screenshot, but where's notes?

RE: Apples iPod touch... See ya Palm!
SeldomVisitor @ 9/7/2007 8:24:19 AM # Q
Sixth time's the charm!

RE: Apples iPod touch... See ya Palm!
PacManFoo @ 9/7/2007 9:07:08 AM # Q
Wow, good call. I don't see a notes application mentioned anywhere on Apples site regarding the iPod Touch. I assumed because the iPhone had it that the iPod Touch would. Looks like I'll have to do some more investigating on this one before I do any changing.

PDA's Past and Present:
iPod Touch ???? Maybe soon.
Palm - IIIxe, Vx, M500, M505, Tungsten T, TX
Handspring - Edge, Platinum, Deluxe
Sony - SJ22
Apple - MP110, MP2000, MP2100
RE: Apples iPod touch... See ya Palm!
sgingras @ 9/7/2007 1:46:08 PM # Q
Well...I don't want to start a flame war, but have any of you folks who are touting the iTouch actually used an iPhone?

The iPhone is beautiful. The UI is stunning as is the physical hardware...and I have used several of them extensively...and I am sticking with my Treo for now because of the iPhone's limitations.

No, I'm not talking about lack of 3G, lack of a physical keyboard, or the closed software that requires developers to hack together solutions without an SDK and then host them in the world's most basic launcher. I am referring to major UI braincramps that make me wonder if Apple wastes all its UI brainpower on making things pretty instead of functional.

Examples:

Calendar - Try entering an appt. You just can't click on a time block and get to an edit screen for that time period. No, much like the other iPhone apps, you will be going through a range of dialogs before you are even close to setting up an appt.

Notepad - doesn't synch. I suppose Apple doesn't see the need to back those items up or allow you to access them from your desktop.

Cut and paste - doesn't exist. Fortunately, there are not a lot of applications available that would benefit.

Global find - not there...and it is (and always has) been an extremely useful function for me...especially since I have quite a few appts, contacts, and memos after using palm-based devices for nearly a decade.

Email - you can only delete one at a time. Anyone actually use email on a phone? I do...all the time...and I often "select all" and "delete" if I know that I have already read the items on a different client.

Contacts - can't just type and get to contacts that match your filter...you must scroll by name. I use this feature on my Treo all of the time...and I can find John Smith my Plumber by typing Joh or Smi or Plum...but not on the iPhone.

Todo/Task list - not there. It was one of the four hard buttons on the original Palm and is available on pretty much every single PDA out there...but not the iPhone


I could go on and on...about lack of video recording, 3G, user-replaceable battery, MMS, etc...or Palm's ease of installing new applications...and the thousands of available titles...including the dozen or so non-standard applications that I use on my Treo all of the time...but I won't. ;-)

Palm is not innovating...and they are being left in the dust. No argument...but IMHO, the iPhone is not Palm PDA killer...yet. The second it is, Palm is dead to me...but my Treo is sticking around until then.



RE: Apples iPod touch... See ya Palm!
SeldomVisitor @ 9/7/2007 1:46:33 PM # Q
RE: Apples iPod touch... See ya Palm!
SeldomVisitor @ 9/7/2007 1:50:09 PM # Q
Oopsie! Wrong thread - meant to put the above here:

-- http://www.palminfocenter.com/comments/9501/#137349

RE: Apples iPod touch... See ya Palm!
PacManFoo @ 9/7/2007 2:45:44 PM # Q
sgingras, you said you are sticking with your Treo and that's fine. For many of us however, we want a PDA minus the phone. I would stick with Palm probably too if they would just make an updated TX. Since Palm is exiting the PDA minus phone market the choices are limited. You have two year old Palm equipment, brand new HP Pocket PC's, and now what could be used as a PDA the iPod Touch. I've played with an iPhone for a few minutes and just in that amount of time it didn't seem very difficult to do the things I need. I really don't want to use PPC since it can't sync with a Macintosh unless you buy third party software. You would think by now Micro$oft could figure out how to do that but I digress. So at the moment the iPod Touch is really the only upgrade path I really see. Let's hope Palm realizes the sales they are giving up.

PDA's Past and Present:
iPod Touch ???? Maybe soon.
Palm - IIIxe, Vx, M500, M505, Tungsten T, TX
Handspring - Edge, Platinum, Deluxe
Sony - SJ22
Apple - MP110, MP2000, MP2100
RE: Apples iPod touch... See ya Palm!
CADJedi @ 9/7/2007 3:28:23 PM # Q

well said PacManFoo... i would probably stick with Palm too if they were offering anything. But since they don't want to sell PDA's and Apple does then I will probably give them [Apple] my business.

Ryan, will you be able to get your hands on an iPod touch to do a review?

I would really like to see a review from a "Palm user" point of view.
* how well its PIM functions work
* is it possible to migrate my Palm data into the iTouch?
* is there any way to hack the Palm Desktop into working with the iTouch?
* does the iTunes desktop support PIM stuff?
* any way to view, edit, and create Word and Excel documents on the iTouch?
* How well does the email and web browsing apps work.
* Is there ANY way to get 3rd party apps on this thing?
* can talk (or bribe) Stuart Dewar into writing Datebk6 for the iTouch??
* how does the screen keyboard compare to grafitti for text entry? (could you see yourself being able to take notes with it in a meeting?)

Thanks!


RE: Apples iPod touch... See ya Palm!
LiveFaith @ 9/7/2007 4:26:12 PM # Q
sgingras,

The point is not that it outdoes Palms for each and every current PDA function. The point is that Palm aint listenen' and Apple apparently is. Furthermore, Palm Inc is functionally sucking wind like a chain smoker in a marathon, while Apple is innovating. Well, maybe not innovation, but more like taking Palm's discarded glory. Just compare Apple's recent CE news (Nano, Video, iPhone, Touch, Classic etc) verses Palm's (LagDrive, Treo RererePeat, 700p Updates, FOLDeo, Gandolf, 2-1 Linux OS)

Apple's platform has a huuuuge footprint for future devices and diversification. We have FrankenGarnet. The handwriting is on the wall in gigantic block letters. I think this is what people are feelin'.

Wake up Palm. Telithacumi!!!

Pat Horne

RE: Apples iPod touch... See ya Palm!
Poopie @ 9/7/2007 5:09:17 PM # Q

I would really like to see a review from a "Palm user" point of view.
* how well its PIM functions work

Here's my try:

Let's break down the Apple Apps:

Calendar:
=========
The Apple Calendar app has three views: List, Day, and Month. There is no "today" view that summarizes PIM status. There is no week view. THere is no year view. There is no way to color code calendar entries like you can on the lifedrive. There is no way to limit the hours of the day that are shown in the calendar.

Creating a new event: You can't really select the time of day for an event to start before you create it. You can roll the calendar to about the time where you want to create an event and be "close" to the time you want. Then you need to tap the time/location field to enter a time and location. One thing I wish is that it was possible to enter a phone number in the location (i.e. a conference call number), and be able to just tap the reminder to dial that number.

Meeting times by default are one hour, and using a rolling wheel mechanism, you can change start or end date / hour / minute / am or pm. You can also set a meeting to be all day with a toggle switch

Repeat options for appointments: every day, every week, every two weeks, every month, every year. There is no every 1 day, end on date, but... an appointment end date doesn't need to be the same date. There is no ability to do "every 3 days", You can only do every N weeks (where N=1,2,4), There is no ability to do "every N months where N != 1, or the 3rd thursday of every month, or the 17th of every month. There is no ability to mark an entry as private.

Sometimes I do miss having a hard button mapped to the calendar. I have to hit the one button , then tap the calendar icon to bring up the calendar.

Contacts:
=========
You have to access contacts from the phone soft icon. Then, there are 5 choices: 4 are phone-related, one is the contacts.

You can use your finger to page through contacts, or if you run your finger along the right side, you can page through the alphabet letters. You can choose to sort your address book either by first name or by last name *ONLY*. As far a the available *fields* in the contacts app on Apple, I'm quite happy. You can add an arbitraty number of phone numbers, email addresses, physical addresses, urls, or an "add field" that provides the following "extra" fields: prefix, middle, suffix, nickname, job title, department, birthday, date, note.

Notes:
======
This app looks like a yellow notepad with a font like "comic sans". Text entry is like standard iPhone apps, and notes can be scrolled up and down with finger.


* is it possible to migrate my Palm data into the iTouch?

If you can get your data from Palm Desktop into Outlook 2003 or 2007, then Yes. You may be able to uninstall palm desktop, reinstall and choose the outlook sync option, then sync your palm data to outlook. That will sync your calendar and contacts. You can then sync an iPhone with itunes.

Currently the iphone only has a "notes" apps. This is basically Palm "memos". There is no Tasks/todo app. There is no Notepad. I really miss Notepad. I used it for free-form note taking, drawing, etc. Notepad on Palm basically was my 'back of the cocktail napkin'. Noting on iPhone provides that ability.

There is no way on Windows to sync the iphone "notes" contents, but you can mail them to yourself or someone eles.


* is there any way to hack the Palm Desktop into working with the iTouch?

Not without any 3rd party software on Windows. Perhaps on OSX you could work something out. I personally think Apple's dependence on Outlook 2003 or 2007 on Windows for data sync is a serious weakness. I'd like to see them support sync to Sunbird and Google Calendar. I'd really like the ability to wirelessly sync with Yahoo calendar/contacts and/or Google calendar/contacts.


* does the iTunes desktop support PIM stuff?

iTunes is the interface where you can choose which supported PIM app to sync with, but it is not a PIM app.


* any way to view, edit, and create Word and Excel documents on the iTouch?

Currently on the iPhone, you can view PDF, DOC, XLS, PPT in emails, but you cannot create or edit them locally. There are some online sites that try to fill this gap by letting you create/edit documents online. Personally, I don't much miss the ability to create/edit office docs, and fine the view only to meet most of my PDA needs. The seamlessness of document viewing in iphone email is very good.


* How well does the email and web browsing apps work.

The email client is pretty good, but I wouldn't consider it the primary way I'd want to manage an email account. Deleting multiple mails is not possible, and sometimes, I feel that the cool graphics effects when putting a mail in the trash are actually slowing me down. I wish there were a way to search through my email messages.

Web browser is *fantastic*. I've had some problems loading very complex and large web pages, but the experience is so much better than any browser on Palm, that I can't begin to explain how much more *useful* Safari on Apple is over Blazer on Palm. Flash is not currently supported in Safari. I don't believe Java is either. Honestly, the only thing I miss is being able to directly view flash videos from youtube or videosift.com. The youtube app provides *most* of the same video content as you can find on the real youtube webpage.


* Is there ANY way to get 3rd party apps on this thing?

Yes! While there isn't an official SDK, there are already crosscompile environments for OSX to build native ARM OSX apps.

Here is an "installer installer" that manages getting native iPhone apps onto a device: http://iphone.nullriver.com/beta/

The problem right now is that you need to do a "jailbreak" to your device in order to install or modify the filesystem and whenever Apple releases an update which comes to you via iTunes... if your device has been modified, itunes doesn't just update your files, it forces you to reinstall your entire device.

Also, I have to say that some pretty surprising apps have been released that are only using the web SDK. check out mockdock.com from inside of Safari for windows (which can emulate safari on iphone/itouch). Beejive mobile IM app is an excellent example of a web app that almost feels like


* can talk (or bribe) Stuart Dewar into writing Datebk6 for the iTouch??

don't know


* how does the screen keyboard compare to grafitti for text entry? (could you see yourself being able to take notes with it in a meeting?)

the autocorrect feature is annoying sometimes. It doesn't like my shorthand for things like "mtg" which it things should be mtf. Once you get used to that, it's not bad... I'm pretty good at it now. Sort of like learning Graffiti on Palm - let it train you first.

USR Palm Pilot 1000 --> Palm Pilot Professional --> TRG SuperPilot --> Palm IIIc --> Palm V --> Palm M505 --> Palm M515 --> Tungsten T|2 --> Treo 600 --> LifeDrive --> iPhone
RE: Apples iPod touch... See ya Palm!
pmjoe @ 9/8/2007 11:27:50 AM # Q
From what I've seen, Notes isn't on the iPod touch (along with a few other apps that are on the iPhone). As to why Notes doesn't sync for the iPhone, I believe it's because Notes is going to be a feature in OS X Leopard and that hasn't been released yet. There are also supposed to be to-dos, but I haven't seen support for that on the iPhone/iPod touch. I'm also not sold on how Apple is apparently integrating this stuff (to-dos/notes) with their Mail app in Leopard (what will they do on Windows?).

Despite all its faults, the iPod touch is still tempting. I haven't had a new Palm OS device in many years. Technology-wise, this is just leaps and bounds beyond anything Palm has to offer. The bar is certainly high for whatever Palm tries to do next.

RE: Apples iPod touch... See ya Palm!
PacManFoo @ 9/11/2007 4:10:54 PM # Q
Every iPod i've seen has had notes on it. I can't imagine this one won't. I just saw the new iPod Nano and iPod Classic today. The GUI got a refresh and looks awsome. I'm getting very excited now about the possibilities of the Touch. By the way both the Classic and the Nano still had Notes.

PDA's Past and Present:
iPod Touch ???? Maybe soon.
Palm - IIIxe, Vx, M500, M505, Tungsten T, TX
Handspring - Edge, Platinum, Deluxe
Sony - SJ22
Apple - MP110, MP2000, MP2100
RE: Apples iPod touch... See ya Palm!
numlock @ 9/11/2007 5:47:15 PM # Q
Good luck trying to enter new datebook appointments on your iPod Touch!

http://tinyurl.com/2g6x2k


RE: Apples iPod touch... See ya Palm!
PacManFoo @ 9/11/2007 8:43:37 PM # Q
No problem. Just open up iCal, enter information, sync up, and off you go. Hey, that's exactly how I do it with my Palm too. I can see where some people would need to input the data right there and maybe this device is not for them.

PDA's Past and Present:
iPod Touch ???? Maybe soon.
Palm - IIIxe, Vx, M500, M505, Tungsten T, TX
Handspring - Edge, Platinum, Deluxe
Sony - SJ22
Apple - MP110, MP2000, MP2100
RE: Apples iPod touch... See ya Palm!
twrock @ 9/11/2007 10:01:05 PM # Q
I can see where some people would need to input the data right there....

Yep, that would be me. I'm fairly "mobile" and need to do that more often than not. I even find myself entering appointments in DateBk on my Palm while sitting in front of my computer with Outlook already open! It's become a habit, so that's where PIM data gets entered.


Thinking about Vista? Think again: http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/pubs/vista_cost.txt
Want an alternative? Try this: http://www.ubuntu.com/ or http://www.mepis.org/
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