Comments on: Palm Teams with Wind River on Foleo Linux
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RE: Firmware updates?
Palm promises updates that either don't materialize or are substantially delayed. Palm has burned their customer base - while apple cultivates and supports their users.
People are willing to cut apple slack with the iphone BECAUSE of their track record. With palm there's an "I'll see it when I believe it" feeling because of palm's record of dropping the ball the past few years.
So... if I download their linux....
I will actually get to try the Foleo?
RE: So... if I download their linux....
But PALM has theoretically 'released' an SDK (hmmm...will that be usable in "the coming months" when they switch to WindRiver Linux on their Fooleo?) so you cna certainly play at developer for the Fooleo - assuming you pass whatever requirements PALM has placed in front of you to be a PALM Fooleo developer.
RE: So... if I download their linux....
A small taste of who you're talking to when you talk with our dear and everpresent friend SeldomVisitor: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comments/8033/#111870
David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com/blog
RE: So... if I download their linux....
I'm actually quite intrigued by Foleo. It took a while to grasp the concept, but I think I'm seeing it. Not that I don't have major questions as to whether it will even exist at Palm in 2009. That being said, my business could be an absolutely superb place for such a device. Actually, I am holding off on any sort of notebook upgrade b/c of the immenent (hopefully) release.
What really has me like a "deer in the headlights" is Palm's 3 year run of near technological paralysis. If Foleo is under the same tech curse as what brought us T|5, Treo700, LagDrive and the head scratching device specs, I give it less than 1% chance of survival. OTOH, if Palm, has been pumping resources here (Foleo vision) effectively, while recovering from the Palm+HS-Palmsource-PalmOne=Palm&NewPalmOS corporate disaster, then maybe this can cause some shockwaves. I'm hoping that 2004-2007 PDAs+Treos have been resource starved due to the Foleo vision. If that is not the reason and Palm thinks that track record will make it, then I'm bailing as soon as my Treo 680 dies.
Watching and waiting.
BTW, is anyone out there working on Foleo's printing capabilities?
Pat Horne
RE: So... if I download their linux....
I was amazed to see some of the bad reactions to the foleo when it was first announced,
but i think those people lack vision and i believe that most of them will come around to realize the great potential of the foleo (if they could just dare to admit they were wrong).
anyway, don't think for a second that i'm listening to trash talk ;-) i have my own opinion thank you very much.
having said that, i still find it interesting to hear other people's opinions.
RE: So... if I download their linux....
Me:
>> ...no, since PALM undoubtedly has all the Fooleo-specific parts tied
>> up in ultra-secrecy so all you'll get to play with is a Linux that's
>> small and possibly power-using-friendly...
The inexperienced one:
> ...I'm under NDA...what you get by examining an evaluation copy
> of one of Wind River's Linux products won't be remotely recognizable
> as Foleo Linux, which is quite special...
Ain't that a kick!?
Lol!
And note those words one more time:
The inexperienced one:
> ...Wind River's Linux products won't be remotely recognizable
> as Foleo Linux, which is quite special...
Me:
>> "...PALM has theoretically 'released' an SDK (hmmm...will that
>> be usable in "the coming months" when they switch to WindRiver
>> Linux on their Fooleo?)..."
I guess something that is not "remotely recognizable" will need no change at all.
Giggle.
And isn't hatred blinding...or is it, perhaps, something more monetary that is blinding?
>> ...I am under NDA...
Ah. Yes. I understand what bit. Hit'em in the pocketbook, even potentialy, and look out!
Lol!
=======
For those of you who, like me, occasionally get fooled into believing Net Personas are real and thus may take what a Net Persona says without doubt, here's what =I= said (quick search - certainly not the most recent similar) about stock positions and PALM:
== "...I have no problem going long or short in PALM but do not
== "invest" either way in this stock - it is strictly a trading
== stock, IMHO, thus no positions are held overnight and certainly
== no positions are held across an earnings release.
==
== Strictly (very) shortterm in-n-out trades.
==
== At this moment in time I have no position in PALM.
==
== ====
==
== (*) Trading either way in a stock says NOTHING about an opinion
== about the company underlying a stock. It's been pretty clear what
== my opinion of the COMPANY is...
For those too cross-eyed to read this irrelevant off-topic crap, what it means is I have no position in PALM right now and, even if I did at the moment of a PiC post it would be gone within minutes if not seconds and, of course, thus meaning that any post I make anywhere about Palm or Treos or the Fooleo would have no possible influence on the profitablility or lack thereof of the position.
That is, MY posting here never has been based off of a profit motive.
Instead, I continue to talk about Palm-the-company on...well, pretty much here and Yahoo only...because literal-know-nothings who are REALLY making money off of Palm spout convincing crap that needs often attention.
=======
(*) In the last, oh say, 5 contracted consulting programming ("development" for those who think the word "programming" isn't sufficiently impressive) positions I've taken (probably more but my memory about such things, going back 20 years when I switched from programming employment to consulting, isn't anything to brag about), the LEAST experienced developer around had, probably, at least 10 years experience (that is, low 30s in age, programming since leaving college at 22-sh); most, however, were in their mid-to-late 30s or 40s with the accompanying gain in years of experience.
That is why I was floored by the inexperience of someone with such an "apparent"-to-me-at-least Net Persona; I was completely fooled. It's funny, I caution The Kidlet that not everything she sees or reads (or person she "meets") online is real or representative of "normal" and then I get fooled Yet Again! I think there's a lesson here for adults, not just the kidlets of the world.
RE: So... if I download their linux....
TI Avigo -> Palm IIIx -> TRGpro -> HE330-> TRGpro -> AlphaSmart Dana -> TRGpro -> Palm M515
RE: So... if I download their linux....
First, a correction: I've been a programmer for 26 years. I started out developing in Fortran on IBM punch cards and VAX mainframes. I've been doing *mobile* application development since 2000.
Second, I'm about to accept a position with a company where my primary concerns will be how we can compete with Google and Yahoo in the mobile space. I still hope to work on a couple of Foleo applications when I can, because I believe in the concept and want the apps for my own use, but they'll most likely be open source projects that people can download for free. So, unlike you, my financial interest in getting "good" or "bad" news about the Foleo into the public eye is effectively zero.
But it was a good try, SeldomVisitor. Thanks for being a contestant in our game today! :-)
David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com/blog
RE: So... if I download their linux....
Might want to update your website - its' readily apparent (right?) that your words on experience can be misunderstood.
RE: So... if I download their linux....
As for the Foleo, I officially became sold on the concept as of yesterday. I wanted to write up some stuff for the site, but work and life, as usual, conspired to get in the way. As I was having lunch, I thought to myself "If I had a Foleo, I could be putting it together right now."
It's just a wee bit too expensive for my tastes at this stage, but the idea of a lightweight writing machine has definitely clicked for me. I don't want a heavy, bloated, ultra-expensive laptop. Big screen, full keyboard, simple apps, instant-on... I get it now.
Sure, it's not an ultra-cool handheld like we all secretly wanted, but I suspect this will turn out to be a much smarter idea in the long run.
David:
Second, I'm about to accept a position with a company where my primary concerns will be how we can compete with Google and Yahoo in the mobile space.
Hoo-boy! Ambitious is the first word that comes to mind. Good luck!
(A recommendation for you: many of Google's excellent command-line functions don't work via their mobile version. Build in a simple unit converter, dictionary definitions, time etc and you'll have a leg-up already.)
Tim
I apologise for any and all emoticons that appear in my posts. You may shoot them on sight.
Treo 270 ---> Treo 650 ---> Crimson Treo 680
RE: So... if I download their linux....
Thinking about Vista? Think again: http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/pubs/vista_cost.txt
Want an alternative? Try this: http://www.ubuntu.com/ or http://www.mepis.org/
Any Foleo Clone?
Judging from the hardware perspective, it is not difficult for other hardware manufacturers to create something smaller, thinner, and yet more robust than the Foleo. So they could easily approach the same platform provider and 3rd party application developer and quickly develop something similar to the Foleo?
--
With great power comes great responsiblity.
RE: Any Foleo Clone?
Pat Horne
RE: Any Foleo Clone?
If the platform is provided by WindRiver, what's the intellectual property left on the Foleo?
There's plenty.
http://www.palminfocenter.com/comments/8779/#135916
(please insert the word "ignorant" where I omitted it: "wholly--and I do mean entirely--ignorant of that accomplishment")
David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com/blog
Plagiarising Beersie
As for the whole Wind River thing, this is about kernel and low-level kernel services, tools and developer support. Wind River's "Platform for Consumer Devices" is not an operating system, it's a platform on which a company like Palm can build an operating system with nicely-integrated tools for both system and application developers. I've been saying all along that Palm, like Motorola, ACCESS, and others before them would partner with a commercial Linux vendor to deliver the low-level parts of the system, rather than doing these in-house. Part of the advantage of Linux that there *is* this kind of layered ecosystem now.The Wind River Workbench is the piece that will most interest application developers, because it's a state-of-the-art Eclipse-based IDE for embedded Linux development--the kind of thing that would be a huge waste of time for Palm to reinvent. The distro and toolchain have been under development at Wind River concurrently with the development of Foleo, so even the 1.0 version wasn't available at the time Palm started this project. I expect that Palm has known for some time that whatever Linux distro they built on at the start would be updated to the latest and greatest commercial Linux distro from a partner like Wind River or MontaVista near release time. If you want to say for dramatic effect that they are "dumping" the old distro they started with you could do that, but I'd be willing to bet that that distro, too, was something they licensed from a vendor back then, not something that Palm developed themselves and are now "dumping" (along with the internal team) in disappointment and disgust.
Wow! This is Linux-Mobile Day in the USA!!!
http://tinyurl.com/yvs7fk
Looks like Moto was doing a little more than window shopping on the $330 million Palmsource albatross of yesteryear.
Pat Horne
Foleo developer guide available on pdn.palm.com
There are a lot of details about the hardware and the Linux kernel and low
level routines.
Just wondering how this maps to the Wind River platform.
Also on pdn you can sign up for the workbench (presumably the wind river one).
Wind River linus on ALL Palms?
RE: Wind River linus on ALL Palms?
I predict a final batch of Garnet-based Treos this fall (at least one GSM) and maybe one more for CDMA next spring. Between now and this time next year Palm will start to phase their FrankenGarnet-based Treos to the lower end of their lineup and have WM6 devices on the high end. Around May/June '08 I predict we'll finally see what we have been awaiting for so long: a Treo 800p running PLinux with a Garnet emulation layer. I bet it'll still be 320x320 but will have integrated wi-fi and possibly GPS.
Since I doubt we'll see Palm supporting Fooleo Linux, Treo Linux, WM6, and Garnet, I expect something to eventually fade away by midyear '08. Look at how quickly OS5 replaced OS4 back in '02-'03. I expect Garnet (and possibly the Fooleo!) to be a distant memory by the end of '08.
Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5-->TX-->Treo 700P
RE: Wind River linus on ALL Palms?
No more PDAs from Palm other than the 3 remaining legacy models. At least not a "PDA" in the conventional sense of the term.
The latter point is an interesting one. For example, the modest processor requirement and memory footprint of the Foleo OS would seem to make it something that could run nicely on scaled down hardware. The ability to roll out smaller versions in the future may even have been a design constraint that they forced themselves to work under. I don't know if there would be a big market for a *pocketable* Foleo, but there might very well be. I'd certainly be surprised if Palm hasn't prototyped different sizes to see if there are other niches they could reach with the same basic technology.
David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com/blog
RE: Wind River linus on ALL Palms?
I'll tell you the "Foleo" model i would like to see... basically a unit that is just like my Palm TX, perhaps a little slimmer, with an updated OS that is full-featured and stable. I mainly want a PDA.
BUT, it would be cool if it could run a bluetooth ear/phone piece. This would give me the best of both worlds... a PDA with a nice sized screen that allows me to get a lot of work done (scheduling, organizing, project tracking, office documents, email, web browsing, etc.)... AND... I still get a phone but I don't have to hold my PDA up to my face, I can hear and speak thru the bluetooth earpiece and still be able to lookup stuff on the PDA as I talk!
Now that would be something I would pay $500 for! Am I the only one that would like a device like that??
RE: Wind River linux on ALL Palms?
I'll tell you the "Foleo" model i would like to see... basically a unit that is just like my Palm TX, perhaps a little slimmer, with an updated OS that is full-featured and stable. I mainly want a PDA.
BUT, it would be cool if it could run a bluetooth ear/phone piece. This would give me the best of both worlds... a PDA with a nice sized screen that allows me to get a lot of work done (scheduling, organizing, project tracking, office documents, email, web browsing, etc.)... AND... I still get a phone but I don't have to hold my PDA up to my face, I can hear and speak thru the bluetooth earpiece and still be able to lookup stuff on the PDA as I talk!
Now that would be something I would pay $500 for! Am I the only one that would like a device like that??
too funny for words
That has got to be the funniest inside joke in the industry, and no one person knows the whole story.
May You Live in Interesting Times
RE: too funny for words
David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com/blog
RE: too funny for words
Let's just say choices were made, opportunities missed, plans executed poorly, and enough mistakes made to fill a KeystoneKops reel.
Eclipse, by the way, sucks (huges amounts of resources) when used for any language but Java. Made me crazy every time I tried to use it.
May You Live in Interesting Times
RE: too funny for words
David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com/blog
Lots of good Foleo info pouring in...
The most interesting revelation: Palm dispensed with the X Server used on most Linux systems and implemented their own light-weight windowing system with DirectFB. That seems to be part of how they accomplished the fast boot-up and responsive UI. I'm *very* pleased with this, and wish ALP and Maemo had been done the same way.
In Ben's words:
We started talking about device specifications at the show today, and they confirm what's already been posted. It's a Intel/Marvell PXA27x processor (ARM instruction set) running at 416MHz. There's 128MB of RAM and 256MB of NAND flash non-volatile memory, with about half of it used by the OS and bundled applications, the rest available for user data storage.To answer guinnessdraught's questions: ftpget and ftpput commands are there, but not the full ftp client. ssh, scp, tar, gzip, vi, and kill are there, although vi is a busybox version so it's fairly limited. The full version of the nano editor is also on device.
There are no perl, emacs, gcc, telnet, lp, or lpr commands. A developer could port some of those over, although for things like gcc, you'd probably need to add additional storage space by installing a CF card.
The device GUI is is not based on X11; it's a Palm-created GUI that uses the open-source DirectFB system. We did this to make the device as fast as possible with the current hardware. There is also a 2700G "Marathon" graphics accelerator on the device that's used by the DirectFB libraries to speed up drawing the GUI.
David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com/blog
RE: Lots of good Foleo info pouring in...
We already have a software update system built into the device. Updates will be downloadable packages from the Palm website; you'll download the update, run it from the browser or file manager, and it will process all the changes through a couple of device reboots.
http://discussion.treocentral.com/showpost.php?p=1327921&postcount=47
Which means, among other things, that the product release isn't being delayed by the work to port to the new kernel as suggested by the article.
David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com/blog
RE: Lots of good Foleo info pouring in... Video after all?
http://en.wkipedia.org/wiki/Intel_2700G
This accelerator comes in 3 flavors: The 2700G3, 2700G5 and 2700G7.2700G3
The 2700G3 is the value version of the accelerator. It has 384KB of on-die memory suitable for driving a HVGA (320x480) or smaller graphics display.
2700G5
The 2700G5 is the performance version of the accelerator. It has 704 Kbytes of on-die memory suitable for driving a VGA (640x480) resolution display and decoding MPEG-4 video.
2700G7
The 2700G7 is the same as the 2700G5 but is stacked with 16 MB of local memory with a 100 MHz, 32-bit bus (maximum 400 Mbytes/s theoretical bandwidth) in the same package.
The entry also mentions that it's the successor to graphics tech that was seen in the Dreamcast, possibly the most criminally underrated machine in the history of gaming consoles. Which means nothing, really, except to make me glad its spirit lives on in others. ;)
Tim
I apologise for any and all emoticons that appear in my posts. You may shoot them on sight.
Treo 270 ---> Treo 650 ---> Crimson Treo 680
RE: Lots of good Foleo info pouring in...
I wonder if they looked at tinyx, which is about half way between directfb and 'real' x windows.
May You Live in Interesting Times
RE: Lots of good Foleo info pouring in...
I'm still amused that Palm went with a 2.4 kernel when 2.6 was running well on both the PXA2xx and PXA3xx processors more than 24 months ago.
Maybe an indication that this work dates back farther than 2 years? The first word we had that Palm had been "exploring partnerships" to develop a Linux OS was back in Nov 2004, before PalmSource had even announced their Linux intentions. At the time that piece went to press it said this process had been under way "for some time."
I wonder if they looked at tinyx, which is about half way between directfb and 'real' x windows.
All I know is that there were BIG discussions about X vs no X.
David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com/blog
RE: Lots of good Foleo info pouring in...
May You Live in Interesting Times
wind river
http://www.siliconvalleywatcher.com/mt/archives/2007/08/wind_river_is_o.php
RE: wind river
(That's my countdown before someone comes along and turns this into yet another "disaster" for Palm. "Hey look at this! Palm's new OS just got destroyed!...")
Thinking about Vista? Think again: http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/pubs/vista_cost.txt
Want an alternative? Try this: http://www.ubuntu.com/ or http://www.mepis.org/
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Firmware updates?
Every Apple-freak out there speaks with utmost confidence in Apple that 'forthcoming firmware upgrades' will bring additional functionality to their iPhones, as if a horde of 3rd party developers are working on creating new apps for the iPhones, which will be delivered to iPhones by firmware upgrades.
That sort of customer expectation and loyalty has not been found at Palm for the past years, so maybe the Foleo will be a turnaround.
http://foleocentral.blogspot.com
FoleoCentral is the news, opinions & review blog about the Palm Foleo Mobile Companion