MobileInfocenter

Comments on: ACCESS Says ALP Release Has Not Slipped

Maureen O'Connell, an ACCESS spokesperson, has issued a statement to PalmInfocenter clarifying the timing of the release of the ACCESS Linux Platform. She says ACCESS has previously stated that they plan to deliver a pre-release version of the ACCESS Linux Platform PDK to select licensees, and a pre-release version of the ACCESS Linux Platform SDK to select registered developers before the end of this year, and that general availability would be in the first half of 2007.

She also has confirmed that ACCESS has in fact already delivered pre-release PDKs and SDKs to a number of companies.

Return to Story - Permalink

Article Comments

 (75 comments)

The following comments are owned by whoever posted them. PalmInfocenter is not responsible for them in any way.
Please Login or register here to add your comments.

Start a new Comment Down

Cut the BULL, Access.

The_Voice_of_Reason @ 12/14/2006 9:45:40 PM # Q
W T F is a "pre-release" version? A sketch of the ALP-OS architecture from the back of a Hooters c0cktail napkin? Get serious.

We've already all seen this B.S. with Copeland and Cobalt. Let us know when you have a finalized, stable OS that's READY TO GO ON A REAL DEVICE. Until then, please S T F U, Access.

TVoR

RE: Cut the BULL, Access.
ThunderCracker @ 12/14/2006 11:07:36 PM # Q
I call baloney as well.

Note the following paragraph from Palmsource's ALP press release in Feb '06 http://www.palmsource.com/press/2006/021406_accesslinuxplatform.html

"ACCESS' goal is to have ALP become the platform of choice for the development of high volume, feature rich smartphones and mobile devices for high performance networks, including 2.5G and 3G, worldwide. ALP is designed to provide a complete, consistent and customizable solution for handset and mobile device manufacturers and mobile operators. ACCESS and PalmSource expect to make the ALP Software Developer Kit (SDK) available to its licensees by the end of this year (2006)." (italics mine.)

This was repeated in August 2006.

Engadget - August 2006 - http://www.engadgetmobile.com/2006/08/22/palmsource-and-access-drop-more-info-on-their-alp-os/
"PalmSource says they're still on track to deliver the OS to licensees at the end of the year, with the first ALP products finally emerging next spring.

So to break down Ms. O'Connell's comments:

She says ACCESS has previously stated that they plan to deliver a pre-release version of the ACCESS Linux Platform PDK to select licensees, and a pre-release version of the ACCESS Linux Platform SDK to select registered developers before the end of this year, and that general availability would be in the first half of 2007.

A qick look at google finds no mention of a pre-release version of the SDK period. Additionally there is no mention of the December 2006 date refering to pre-release anything. Soooooo, one must wonder, why the FUD from Ms. O'Connell.

The bottom line is this:

Access said that they would ship the SDK to developers by the end of 2006, which has exactly 16 days, 29 minitues and 12 seconds left as I write this. Baring any unforseen circumstances, they WILL miss the date.

I think that second quarter, 2007 is much more likely, and about 1 year too late. By then, most carriers will have the BB Pearl, Windows Smartphones like the Q and Blackjack, the various Treo models, assorted HTC devices and the Nokia e6x series. This will mean that there will be no market for ALP. No customers means no developers, No developers means that ALP is dead in the water.

Seriously, with palm commited to Garnet and Windows Mobile, who will ship ALP hardware? Who cares anymore?


Palm III --> Compaq Areo 1550 --> Palm IIIc --> Visor Edge --> Casio EM500 --> Sony T415 --> Compaq 3670 --> Dell Axim x5 Advanced --> Sony SJ20 --> Palm T|E --> HP H1945/T610 --> Dell Axim X30 --> Axim X50v --> Treo 600 --> Palm T|X --> Blackberry 6230 --> Treo 650 --> Blackberry 7100t --> BB 7290 --> Samsung Blackjack

RE: Cut the BULL, Access.
PenguinPowered @ 12/15/2006 1:32:16 AM # Q
pre-releases are common in the industry and are sometimes called previews. They're unfinished, rough cut, versions of the software that you share with critical customers to get their feedback earlier in the process and to give them a head start on developing products with your tools.

My current development, for example, is using a prerelease of GCC 4.1.2.

I am surprised that they'd try to brazen their way out of a schedule slip so baldly.

But I am not surprised that they're slipping.

I am surprised that Access hasn't stepped in and taken a more hands-on role in managing PSRC. I would have thought the disaster would have been apparent to them six months ago.



May You Live in Interesting Times

RE: Cut the BULL, Access.
ThunderCracker @ 12/15/2006 2:03:29 AM # Q
PP,

Questions, In your opinion:

If they wait until mid 2007 to release, (worse case scenario) and We get a device by September 2007, will anyone care anymore?

What will be ALP be able to do that the competitor's can't?

Why would anyone (speaking from the point of view of the consumer, or the corporate perspective) buy ALP when other, more established solutions are available?

I see Windows Mobile, Symbian, and even RIM eating Access's lunch now, and it will only get worse in the future. I think their windows was now, and they missed it.

Palm III --> Compaq Areo 1550 --> Palm IIIc --> Visor Edge --> Casio EM500 --> Sony T415 --> Compaq 3670 --> Dell Axim x5 Advanced --> Sony SJ20 --> Palm T|E --> HP H1945/T610 --> Dell Axim X30 --> Axim X50v --> Treo 600 --> Palm T|X --> Blackberry 6230 --> Treo 650 --> Blackberry 7100t --> BB 7290 --> Samsung Blackjack

RE: Cut the BULL, Access.
PenguinPowered @ 12/15/2006 2:54:16 AM # Q
To oversimplify, there are three potential meaningful markets for Linux phones: China, Japan, and Europe/US.

I think the window of opportunity will soon close for Linux phones in Europe and the US.

I think the market for Linux phones exists and may be growing in China, for various reasons.

I don't know how Linux phones will do, in general, in Japan.

That said, here's my opinion:

1) Only the Chinese will care
2) By the time it ships, nothing
3) The window hasn't completely closed on Linux phones, mostly because certain big phone makers, notably Nokia and Motorola, are still interested. But the Linux community seems to be doing everything possible to make a Linux smart phone in the US and European markets unlikely. This isn't intentional sabatoge, it's just that the community cares a lot more about pcs then they do about embedded systems, and when they care about embedded systems it tends to be things like routers and wifi access points.

Supposedly, on Monday, Apple is going to announce iphone. that's going to put a dent in everyone's idea of what the phone market should be, and if it's just the ipod-phone that everyone is expecting it's going to leave people wondering what they're up to.

We live in interesting times.


May You Live in Interesting Times

Access management on crack? Apparently.
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 12/15/2006 4:15:18 AM # Q
Who the F do they think they're fooling trying to Palm off Cobalt/Copeland-style pre-alpha code as a finished product? They should be ashamed of themselves for attempting to B.S. the PalmOS community like this.

I hear it's hard to code an OS without any warm bodies in the codemonkey cages. Too bad. ALP-OS is going down in flames and will eventually take Access with it. Only the dullest of the dull codemonkeys stayed on at PalmSource after the Access buyout. I was truly shocked that Access hasn't already simply shut down the US PalmSource division and brought in some hired guns that actually know what they're doing. Given PalmSource's spotless track record of utter failure, the fact that Access would entrust PalmSource with even the smallest part of ALP-OS is shocking, to say the least.

Earlier this year I predicted that Access would be either bankrupt or sold by February, 2008 and that part of PalmOS would have been sold off. Access management is apparently doing everything it can to prove me right.

TVoR-san

OT: iPod phone™ to be renamed iCon™
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 12/15/2006 10:20:39 PM # Q
A TVoR exclusive!!!


Sources close to the TVoR Council have learned that the long-anticipated iPod phone™ will be christened the iCon™ when it is formally introduced to the world by Steve "Svengali" Jobs at Macworld SF January 9, 2007. "It's an iPod AND a cellphone. Wow." Yes, there are already several dozen cellphones available TODAY that function as MP3 players, but this one is SO much better because it has been touched (improperly?) by Mr. Jobs and also sports Apple styling and Apple logos. What more could an Apple Cultist want?


"Watch out for the iCon™, Kiddies - don't get fooled again..."

TVoR
Copyright, 2006

*iCon™ is a registered trademark of TVoR, Inc. All rights reserved.

iPhone? BAH! Here's the REAL deal!
hkklife @ 12/15/2006 10:58:21 PM # Q
THIS, THIS is what Palm SHOULD have produced one year ago as the LOGICAL melding of the TX & the Treo.

http://www.engadget.com/2006/12/15/the-lg-ke850-touchable-chocolate/

http://www.slashphone.com/89/6073.html

*IF* Palm were (could?) produce such a device (one that worked at least as well as the Treo 680)--320*480, 3.5mm headphone jack, 1gb of internal flash, EVDO and a removable battery--it'd make the iPhone look like a 512mb Shuffle in comparison. I'd pay $600 for such a device running POS...IF it was a capable phone.

Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5-->TX-->Treo 700P

RE: Cut the BULL, Access.
SeldomVisitor @ 12/16/2006 7:45:28 AM # Q
RE: Cut the BULL, Access.
SeldomVisitor @ 12/16/2006 7:47:47 AM # Q
Is Access a bunch of lying biotches? (Rhetorical question)
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 4/25/2007 1:33:54 AM # Q
Behold the apocryphal (still unfinished?) ALPOS SDK:


http://dl.access-company.com/sdk/sdk.tgz

Do these Access dumba$$es think the Palm community is blind? If they're going to slip with dates then just be honest and admit it. [This OS coding stuff sure is hard work, isn't it?]

CUT THE B.S., Access.

Smells like Cobalt Part II has hit the fan. More bad news to follow in a few months...


TVoR

RE: Cut the BULL, Access.
SeldomVisitor @ 4/25/2007 6:23:48 AM # Q
> ...Smells like Cobalt Part II has hit the fan...

True.

Reply to this comment

I vote to ban obnoxious comments by TVoR

rmhurdman @ 12/14/2006 11:14:46 PM # Q
What an idiot that user is. And it's a waste of time reading his posts. Especially ones like the above that don't say anything.

Go away, you little moron.

RE: I vote to ban obnoxious comments by TVoR
ThunderCracker @ 12/14/2006 11:38:34 PM # Q
I completely disagree with you.

I have been reading his stuff for years. I think that he really believes in the Palm principles that were what the platform was founded on. He is just completely frustrated with Palm's inability to execute over the last 5 years.

Palm took what was a core principle, the idea that a device should be able to do what it was intended, do it well, and do it without the user having to think about it, (Zen of Palm) and used that as an excuse to sit on their butts and fail to innovate.

For those failures, we have been repeatedly turned into beta testers for a company that just refuses to innovate effectively (Tungsten T, T5, TW, M100, Treo 650 etc). Even stuff we get that is new, and revolutionairy (Lifedrive, Treo series, M500 series) has had serious issues with implementation.

For that, palm deserves TVOR and PIC needs him to serve as the "Loyal Oppisition". Otherwise, PIC devolves in to a big circle jerk for a dying platform.

Palm III --> Compaq Areo 1550 --> Palm IIIc --> Visor Edge --> Casio EM500 --> Sony T415 --> Compaq 3670 --> Dell Axim x5 Advanced --> Sony SJ20 --> Palm T|E --> HP H1945/T610 --> Dell Axim X30 --> Axim X50v --> Treo 600 --> Palm T|X --> Blackberry 6230 --> Treo 650 --> Blackberry 7100t --> BB 7290 --> Samsung Blackjack

RE: I vote to ban obnoxious comments by TVoR
twrock @ 12/15/2006 12:44:15 AM # Q
For that, palm deserves TVOR and PIC needs him to serve as the "Loyal Oppisition".

Generally I agree with your assessment. But I don't think TVOR's the only one around here who approaches Palm with a critical eye.

However, it'd be nice to see TVOR stick with looking at Palm critically and quit with all of the personal attacks (trolling). That's the crap that gets old for me.

I'm still waiting for the mythical color HandEra.

RE: I vote to ban obnoxious comments by TVoR
ThunderCracker @ 12/15/2006 2:32:13 AM # Q
Granted. There are others in the opposition. And as far TVOR's personal attacks, I think he cold tone it done sometimes, but a lot of people would do well to grow the heck up on a sticks and stones basis, if you catch my drift.

The bottom line, is that TVOR makes some incredibly valid points. To ignore the substance of his stuff just so one can run to his mommy because someone is being mean to you is the height of foolishness.


And extremely funny as well I might add.



Palm III --> Compaq Areo 1550 --> Palm IIIc --> Visor Edge --> Casio EM500 --> Sony T415 --> Compaq 3670 --> Dell Axim x5 Advanced --> Sony SJ20 --> Palm T|E --> HP H1945/T610 --> Dell Axim X30 --> Axim X50v --> Treo 600 --> Palm T|X --> Blackberry 6230 --> Treo 650 --> Blackberry 7100t --> BB 7290 --> Samsung Blackjack

RE: I vote to ban obnoxious comments by TVoR
e_tellurian @ 12/15/2006 1:04:04 PM # Q
Banning people is a sad choice.

What causes people to want to ban people? In this environment of pure intellect do we undermine our intellect when we have chosen to give up our freedom of speech for a button?

Have some purchased the systematic removal of our intellectuals from society? Do most people need/want to create knowledge honourably and with integrity?

What does knowledge look like?

E-T


e-tellurian

Completing the e-com circle with a people driven we-com solution
WiFi & BT? No strings attached
we_tellurian@canada.com

RE: I vote to ban obnoxious comments by TVoR
SeldomVisitor @ 12/15/2006 1:19:19 PM # Q
It's an amorphous blob.

RE: I vote to ban obnoxious comments by TVoR
retrospooty @ 12/15/2006 7:54:08 PM # Q
"Banning people is a sad choice."

I agree, and I dont think he should be banned. I do wish he would STFU most of the time though =)

He has some serious anger issues. To hang out on a forum and verboviolently bash anything and everything Palm and Palmsource, now Access does is just weird, and kind of sad.

TVOR, dood, move on already and buy a winmobile device or some other piece of crap and complain about it for a change. You will never EVER find a device that satisfies you, there will always be flaws, live with it. Reading your comments out loud It feels like my ears are bleeding, It just hurts. LOL

RE: I vote to ban obnoxious comments by TVoR
e_tellurian @ 12/16/2006 12:50:43 PM # Q
Foul language seems to be an issue ... for some.

To some, not all, money talks louder than intellect. The common denominator in an intellectual debate is capital ... those that can think enhance value and those that cannot think process capital by purchasing thoughts. All good just different choices offering different value.

Many will have a wonderful Christmas and Holiday season as a consequence of our crew ... i trust all the crew will too.

Peace,

E-T



e-tellurian

Completing the e-com circle with a people driven we-com solution
WiFi & BT? No strings attached
we_tellurian@canada.com

RE: I vote to ban obnoxious comments by TVoR
ThunderCracker @ 12/16/2006 3:41:06 PM # Q

He has some serious anger issues. To hang out on a forum and verboviolently bash anything and everything Palm and Palmsource, now Access does is just weird, and kind of sad.

TVOR, dood, move on already and buy a winmobile device or some other piece of crap and complain about it for a change. You will never EVER find a device that satisfies you, there will always be flaws, live with it. Reading your comments out loud It feels like my ears are bleeding, It just hurts. LOL

Please name me 3 things palm has done in the last 1 years that was really worthy of praise. Palm has done nothing worthy of praise since the Treo 600. Since then, Palm has done nothing but release buggy underengineered hardware that simply fixes what should have been done right from the get go!

PalmSource, and Now Access has been a functional disaster. ALP is vapor, Cobalt was stillborn. ALP, when it is released, will have little to no market outside of China.

So in the end, we have Palm, a company that practically refuses to innovate, and when they do they screw it up. And Palmsource/Access, a company that apparently innovates so much that they can't successfully ship anything.

The sad truth is that id didn't have to be that way. Remember how we all laughed at the silly Windows CE devices in 1998? Well Microsoft is now kicking Palm's Zen up one side and down the other. Not only that, but RIM and Nokia have joined in as well. Why? Becaused they out innovated Palm. To lose for this reason is inexcusable.

But, my friend, the most galling comment you made is this gem:

there will always be flaws, live with it.

This is a ridiculous comment. Consumers should never have to life with it. The bottom line, my friend is that the platform we loved, Palm OS is dying because the powers that be refused to reconize the power of innovation. Instead, they have used us, their loyal following to beta test their hardware. And like sheep we followed, because we thought that something really cool was around the corner that would make it all better.

Well now we know, ALP is a OS insearch of a platform. ALP will not look or feel like any kind of Palm OS we know. In Fact, ALP is going to get crushed in the market by Windows Mobile, RIM and Nokia because they waited sooooo long to get to the market, that ALL of their competitors got better.

Our only hope is for a perpetually warmed over version of garnet, the OS that would not die, from Palm. Well that is not an acceptable alternative for long.

All that is left for us is to wonder what could have been, and lament our sucker status, as we slip into amigahood.



Palm III --> Compaq Areo 1550 --> Palm IIIc --> Visor Edge --> Casio EM500 --> Sony T415 --> Compaq 3670 --> Dell Axim x5 Advanced --> Sony SJ20 --> Palm T|E --> HP H1945/T610 --> Dell Axim X30 --> Axim X50v --> Treo 600 --> Palm T|X --> Blackberry 6230 --> Treo 650 --> Blackberry 7100t --> BB 7290 --> Samsung Blackjack

RE: I vote to ban obnoxious comments by TVoR
retrospooty @ 12/16/2006 5:10:50 PM # Q
"Please name me 3 things palm has done in the last 1 years that was really worthy of praise. Palm has done nothing worthy of praise since the Treo 600. Since then, Palm has done nothing but release buggy underengineered hardware that simply fixes what should have been done right from the get go!"

I didnt say Palm did a whole lot of innovating this year, what I said (and you quoted me) was a comment to TVOR about bashing anything and everything they do. They did release 4 smartphones this year, you may not like them, but they did it, and I personally love mine.


" there will always be flaws, live with it. This is a ridiculous comment. Consumers should never have to life with it."

Redicoulous? You show me a smartphone that has not had flaws or lacked some features that others have? Show me this wonderful device, I would seriosly love to buy one. I understand and to some degree agree with you on the Palm OS. I love it too, and don't want to see it fade away into oblivion, but come on, lamenting about it on a forum is pointless. You need to buy the product you want to buy based on its features. If Palm doesnt have it, buy something else that does, or comes as close as it gets.


RE: I vote to ban obnoxious comments by TVoR
stonemirror @ 12/16/2006 6:53:22 PM # Q
Let's be clear: there's a difference between criticism of a product, no matter how it's couched, and direct, personal abuse of specific individuals. A variety of folks, myself included, have been subjected to having their home addresses, personal family photographs, etc., posted here, with predictably disgusting commentary, by "The Mouth", not to mention being the targets of direct abuse in both sexual and scatological terms coming from the same quarter. The last time this came up, changes of some sort were promised, but no changes have materialized.

Since it seems that a plurality of folks here can't distinguish fair commentary from foul, the people who might have something concrete to say have universally chosen to stay away--as I'll be continuing to do once I post this.

(But I fully expect another bucket-load of comments along precisely the lines I've described above, coming from precisely the usual source, in response to this observation...)

God says, "Take whatever you want, and pay for it."

TVoR Council's response to yet more cowardly attacks on TVoR:
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 12/16/2006 10:25:14 PM # Q
"Banning people is a sad choice."

I agree, and I dont think he should be banned. I do wish he would STFU most of the time though =)

If you disagree with anything posted by TVoR or can prove anything posted is incorrect, please feel free to post a rebuttal.

He has some serious anger issues. To hang out on a forum and verboviolently bash anything and everything Palm and Palmsource, now Access does is just weird, and kind of sad.

No, TVoR does not have "serious anger issues". You just don't get it do you? Ask a grown-up or someone smarter than you (most people?) to explain this to you. Make sure you ask them to... speak... slowly...

TVOR, dood, move on already and buy a winmobile device or some other piece of crap and complain about it for a change. You will never EVER find a device that satisfies you, there will always be flaws, live with it. Reading your comments out loud It feels like my ears are bleeding, It just hurts. LOL

"dood"? Ahem. Over the years I have used PPC/Windows Mobile devices as well and find PalmOS preferrable for my uses. While no device will ever be perfect, that's not an excuse to give up trying to improve the devices. Ironically, with minor changes to devices we've seen over the past 3 years we could currently be enjoying some superb hardware. Among the devices I've used I would list the original Pilot, Palm IIIx, TRGpro, Handera 330, CLIE S300, CLIE UX50, Samsung i500, CLIE TH55 (European) and CLIE VZ90 as devices that came close to perfection for their time. It would not take much effort to turn the latter 4 devices into nearly "perfect" devices for 2007. If the world was full of Palm Apologists like you, in 2007 we would likely still be using $300 monochrome Palm III derivatives that lacked memory expansion, multimedia, connectivity and cellphone capability. Fortunately, some of us expect more for our money and are willing to vote with our wallets.

If you don't like TVoR's comments, I suggest you simply DON'T READ THEM.

Let's be clear: there's a difference between criticism of a product, no matter how it's couched, and direct, personal abuse of specific individuals. A variety of folks, myself included, have been subjected to having their home addresses, personal family photographs, etc., posted here, with predictably disgusting commentary, by "The Mouth", not to mention being the targets of direct abuse in both sexual and scatological terms coming from the same quarter. The last time this came up, changes of some sort were promised, but no changes have materialized.

Since it seems that a plurality of folks here can't distinguish fair commentary from foul, the people who might have something concrete to say have universally chosen to stay away--as I'll be continuing to do once I post this.

(But I fully expect another bucket-load of comments along precisely the lines I've described above, coming from precisely the usual source, in response to this observation...)

God says, "Take whatever you want, and pay for it."

Your sad, quiet indignance is touching, Mr. Schlesinger. It's unfortunate to see a sweet, polite, generous individual such as yourself senselessly and brutally VICTIMIZED by The Big Bad TVoR. Can we expect you to continue popping up here every few months to mention that you won't be participating at Palminfocenter as long as The Big Bad TVoR is running rampant in these parts? Maybe you should concentrate on actually trying to distill a REAL, WORKING OS from your current ALP-OS vaporware instead. As usual, thanks for sharing your tremendous insight with the PalmOS community here. And as always, ki o tsukete.


TBBTVoR


"They're all dead..."

RE: I vote to ban obnoxious comments by TVoR
retrospooty @ 12/16/2006 11:22:54 PM # Q
"You just don't get it do you? Ask a grown-up or someone smarter than you (most people?) to explain this to you. Make sure you ask them to... speak... slowly..."

TVOR... is that the best you can do? Talking in another circle, endlessly bashing Palm and anyone that disagrees with your negative (and pointless) approach? So I disagree with you, therefore I must be stupid or a child? ugh...

You go on as if you are fulfilling some moral duty to point out how Palm has screwed everthing up. What do you think you will accomplish posting on a forum? Will Ed Colligan and his senior team read your posts and suddenly light bulbs will go off in thier heads and they will change thier ways? Come on, this is a business, that wont happen. Nothing you say here matters to them, they dont give a shit. Get it? I do agree with MOST of what you say (just not how you say it), they have dropped the ball alot lately, and the future for them looks like more of the same. Endlessly bashing wont change anything, since you love the Palm OS so much, why sont you take some time and get it working, millions of others dont have a problem with it, including me. For someone who has owned so many Palm OS devices, you sure seem like a rookie to me.

You sir, are a waste of skin. I do hope you grow out of your narrow corner and join the rest of us in adulthood someday. Until then, I suggest you do as you stated yourself and vote with your wallet and buy something else. A suggestion I have made before by the way.

RE: I vote to ban obnoxious comments by TVoR
ThunderCracker @ 12/17/2006 12:26:27 AM # Q
Retro,

It is fascinating to consider your comments. I find the following most telling.

1.) It was you, not TVOR who started with the personal attacks today.

2.) I agree that the distain that Palm's senior management has on it's users is very evident in the way they don't care what we think. That is Palm's biggest problem. And what does that make us? Suckers. We are eating it big time watching a platform that had such promise getting smoked by what were inferior platforms.

Oh, and to respond to your eariler post about that praiseworthy things Palm has done in the last year.

1. you didn't answer the question. But then you couldn't because the answer is, of course, nothing. This year has not been a success for Palm. Look at thier releases:

Treo 700w - A device that forced palm to admit that they couldn't get the latest features on a Palm OS phone.

Treo 700p - A device that had the memory fixes that the 650 shold have had, but also added more lag.

Treo 700wx - A device that told us all that Palm can't even release a Windows mobile phone 700w without screwing it up somehow.

Treo 680p - A device that told us how long Palm needed in order to figure out that you can build in an internal antenna while simultanouesly shortening battery life. Answer 3 years.

In the same calendar year, Microsoft has perfected thier push email technology and released major new devices in new kinds of platforms, Nokia has created a solid alternative to the Blackberry, and RIM has figured out how to expand it's product line to do multimedia.

In fact, we can expand this question, as I origionally meant it to read. What praiseworthy thing has Palm done in the 3 years?

As far as the competetion, What praytell is Palm's answer to the Blackjack or the Q? What is Palm's answer to the BB Pearl? What is Palm's PalmOS answer to 3g? What is there that palm is the best platform for?

The bottom line is that Palm has three choices: Lead, Follow or get out of the way. Right now, palm is having chioce # 3 enforced on them, not by choice, but by sheer unwillingness to make a choice.

That is where we come in. We can save Palm's Soul. We, the honored audience for all things Palm, can help them, if only they would listen. Sastify us, and they will win.



Palm III --> Compaq Areo 1550 --> Palm IIIc --> Visor Edge --> Casio EM500 --> Sony T415 --> Compaq 3670 --> Dell Axim x5 Advanced --> Sony SJ20 --> Palm T|E --> HP H1945/T610 --> Dell Axim X30 --> Axim X50v --> Treo 600 --> Palm T|X --> Blackberry 6230 --> Treo 650 --> Blackberry 7100t --> BB 7290 --> Samsung Blackjack

RE: I vote to ban whatever I don't like
twrock @ 12/17/2006 1:46:48 AM # Q
That is where we come in. We can save Palm's Soul. We, the honored audience for all things Palm, can help them, if only they would listen. Sastify us, and they will win.

Are you convinced that is really true? (I am asking an honest question here.)

I consider myself a mid- to low-end power user of computers and PDAs. I have a particular set of "wants" and "needs", but I'm not completely convinced that I represent a large enough segment of the population to be the target for the R&D department at Palm.

I put Linux on my brand new home computer three months ago because I figured it was time to put my "money" (none in this case) where my mouth was and get off the MS treadmill. It took me many evenings and weekends to really get things to work as I wanted them to. I mention that only to show that I am not the average computer user. The average computer user is simply not going to make that kind of commitment to learning how to make a new OS work for them. I'm the kind of PDA user who will bother to show up at this forum and voice my opinion. That in and of itself makes me "not average."

So who's Palm trying to market to? Me, or someone else? I'm not completely convinced that Palm can win by satisfying me, and I'm not completely convinced they can win by satisfying you either. But, I have been wrong before.......

Just trying to be honest here, not pick a fight.

I'm still waiting for the mythical color HandEra.

RE: I vote to ban obnoxious comments by TVoR
ChiA @ 12/17/2006 6:26:45 AM # Q
I'm not completely convinced that I represent a large enough segment of the population to be the target for the R&D department at Palm.

If it takes 3 years of Palm's R&D department to double the memory and place the antenna inside a cellphone then I'm grateful they're not working in any other industry; otherwise we would all still be driving Model Ts, watching black and white TV and flying around in wooden bi-planes!

Most people are interested in ordinary phones and not smartphones. By ignoring the power users, the ones who do give a damn which OS runs on their device, Palm's currently ignoring the very segment that takes the greatest interest and has the greatest devotion to its products. All fine and dandy, they're the ones running the company but I'm glad I'm not a Palm shareholder!

I don't see any effort by Palm in the UK to advertise the 680 to the mass market: no TV ads, no ads in the street, no ads in the papers, no 680s in the shops. The only place I've seen ads for the 680 are on PDA/smartphone websites - now isn't that still preaching to the choir?

Don't underestimate the readers
freakout @ 12/17/2006 6:43:09 AM # Q
Stonemirror:
Since it seems that a plurality of folks here can't distinguish fair commentary from foul, the people who might have something concrete to say have universally chosen to stay away--as I'll be continuing to do once I post this.

That's a shame. I personally get a kick out of being annoyingly positive about things around here, just to disrupt the tide of negativity. It's fun. You should do it more often. Or maybe I should get out more...

Ryan's only an email away if something personal gets posted, and I agree that any such content should be immediately deleted. But you should also know that while TVoR is a font of (usually) negative criticism, people are smart enough to recognize him/her/them/it as just one very strong opinion with an obvious personal bias. I'd wager there are plenty of lurkers who can't be bothered posting but love reading this site for the different opinions that get posted. I used to be one of them. (those were the days!)

I mean, there's this one columnist in the paper, Piers Akerman. I loathe the fat bastard and all his arrogant, superior, extreme-right-wing views. I still read what he says because it's good to challenge your own views on things. And he has an evil sense of humour that sometimes makes me laugh out loud. But I sure as hell don't agree with what he has to say.

What I'm trying to say is that people don't always believe what they read, and saying that we can't distinguish "fair commentary from foul" is a bit insulting to the readership. We appreciate a diversity of opinion, even if it can get a bit toxic here sometimes. That's the internets for ya.

Tim
I apologise for any and all emoticons that appear in my posts. You may shoot them on sight.
Treo 270 ---> Treo 650 ---> Crimson Treo 680

RE: I vote to ban obnoxious comments by TVoR
freakout @ 12/17/2006 7:18:24 AM # Q
I don't see any effort by Palm in the UK to advertise the 680 to the mass market: no TV ads, no ads in the street, no ads in the papers, no 680s in the shops. The only place I've seen ads for the 680 are on PDA/smartphone websites - now isn't that still preaching to the choir?

Palm have limited resources, and have chosen to promote the 750v over the 680 in Europe. We'll find out whether that was a wise decision or not in another few days after the Q2FY07 Results...

Tim
I apologise for any and all emoticons that appear in my posts. You may shoot them on sight.
Treo 270 ---> Treo 650 ---> Crimson Treo 680

RE: I vote to ban obnoxious comments by TVoR
SeldomVisitor @ 12/17/2006 9:02:56 AM # Q
I've seen next to no comments about 750v advertising on any message boards - are they indeed heavily advertising it?

[earnings are released Tuesday - in recent history PALM has discussed Europe sell-in (that is, PALM's sales to, for example, carriers). We can hope they note the all-important sell-through this time (that is, carriers' sales to end-customers)]

RE: I vote to ban obnoxious comments by TVoR
stonemirror @ 12/17/2006 9:40:11 AM # Q
freakout says, "...people don't always believe what they read..."

No doubt. But when (to give just one example) a pointer to a picture of me and my daughter is posted, and she's treated as a subject for comments of a gross and graphic nature, my concern isn't whether people believe those comments. "Emailing Ryan" is not going to result in a response I'll find satisfactory; the damage has already been done. Similarly with the endless blatant attempts at character assassination via Google-bombing: Google never forgets, eh?

"We appreciate a diversity of opinion..."

A diversity of opinion about people's home addresses, their sexual orientations and histories, and whether they're having incestuous relations with their children...?

Sorry, but that sort of thing, especially when viewed as representing some sort of "opinion" worth airing, excusing, or even tolerating, isn't much of a draw for me, and I'm not the only one who's made that sort of assessment.

RE: I vote to ban obnoxious comments by TVoR
retrospooty @ 12/17/2006 10:56:02 AM # Q
"It was you, not TVOR who started with the personal attacks today."

NO, not really, if you wanna read it back, I was replying to someone else's call to ban him. I was against banning, and said (with a smiley indicating a joke) that I do wish he would STFU and mentioned his anger issues... I stand behind that, and I submit 80% of his posts here at PIC as proof. Nuff said.

"Oh, and to respond to your eariler post about that praiseworthy things Palm has done in the last year you didn't answer the question."

What are you even talking about? I did respond specifically to that, I even quoted you in my response. "They did release 4 smartphones this year, you may not like them, but they did it, and I personally love mine." You may totally disagree with calling any of it "praiseworthy". But 4 releases in a year is an accomplishment.

If you think its so easy to innovate in this field, I ask again, show me a smartphone that has not had flaws or lacked some features that others have? Show me this wonderful device, I would seriously love to buy one.

What would you buy today if you were buying a smartphone? I realize and agree Palm has stumbled alot lately, but who is doing it better? Where are these devices that blow Palm out of the water, and if they are soooo great, why are we all still here at PIC whining about Palm?

RE: I vote to ban obnoxious comments by TVoR
SeldomVisitor @ 12/17/2006 11:08:28 AM # Q
> ...I realize and agree Palm has stumbled alot lately, but who
> is doing it better?...

Everyone. And way cheaper, too.

> ...Where are these devices that blow Palm out of the water...

They're everywhere - in fact, they're on the home pages of Cingular, Verizon Wireless,, and T-Mobile minimally in a highly visible manner - go check.

> ...and if they are soooo great, why are we all still here at PIC
> whining about Palm?

Inertia.

RE: I vote to ban obnoxious comments by TVoR
retrospooty @ 12/17/2006 2:46:38 PM # Q
"...and if they are soooo great, why are we all still here at PIC
whining about Palm?

Inertia."

LOL... Good one but your answers of "everyone" and "everywhere" are not really to the point. Yes there are many new smartphones out there, with many good and bad points. What device is head and shoulders above a treo?

Motorola with the Q? NOT! Its slim, but awkward and is lacks features.

Backberry w/ Pearl? It is a good phone, but small screen (granted some like that) and most power users agree the OS is lacking. Overall a good device, but it hardly blows the Treo's away.

HTC's plethera of devices? All have great feature set, but nothing really stands out as a clear winner. If you need Wifi, there it is, but with EVDO or UMTS (depending on your carrier) Wifi is useless for 99.9% of the users out there (in spite of the very vocal few on forums such as this).

Nokia? I am not too famliar with thier models ... They cant be that good. IF they are please enlighten me as to why?

If you like Win Mobile (and I seriously do not!), these HTC, and a few others phones are cool, but like I said, nothing realy special. some are better than Treo's spec wise, but nothng that blows us all away.

RE: I vote to ban obnoxious comments by TVoR
freakout @ 12/17/2006 3:27:36 PM # Q
SeldomVisitor:
I've seen next to no comments about 750v advertising on any message boards - are they indeed heavily advertising it?

http://tinyurl.com/y2wlqz

Stonemirror:
A diversity of opinion about people's home addresses, their sexual orientations and histories, and whether they're having incestuous relations with their children...?

Sorry, but that sort of thing, especially when viewed as representing some sort of "opinion" worth airing, excusing, or even tolerating, isn't much of a draw for me, and I'm not the only one who's made that sort of assessment.

No. When the postings around here get like that I have a tendency to just keep rolling the scroll wheel, because it's not what I'm really interested in. I think some more stern moderating might be appropriate, and indeed I've noticed some of the more flagrant "personal attack" content has been deleted lately.

But anyways, I can understand packing up your marbles and leaving. Sometimes people just push you way too far. But if you ever need a hug, freakout is here, in all his handsome, toned, sun-dappled glory...

Tim
I apologise for any and all emoticons that appear in my posts. You may shoot them on sight.
Treo 270 ---> Treo 650 ---> Crimson Treo 680

retrospooty's selective amnesia; David Schlesinger's outrage.YAWN
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 12/17/2006 4:39:13 PM # Q
"It was you, not TVOR who started with the personal attacks today."

NO, not really, if you wanna read it back, I was replying to someone else's call to ban him. I was against banning, and said (with a smiley indicating a joke) that I do wish he would STFU and mentioned his anger issues... I stand behind that, and I submit 80% of his posts here at PIC as proof. Nuff said.

Golly gee whiz, retrospooty. Does your comment below count as a "personal attack"?

"You sir, are a waste of skin. I do hope you grow out of your narrow corner and join the rest of us in adulthood someday. Until then, I suggest you do as you stated yourself and vote with your wallet and buy something else. A suggestion I have made before by the way."

Interesting to see PalmSource's David Schlesinger STILL here, posting (as usual) off-topic tripe. Here's a suggestion, Mr.Schlesinger: if you have some HONEST information you'd like to share about PalmOS/ALP-OS/PalmSource/Access, go right ahead and post it. If you have nothing to say about those topics perhaps you should simply get back to work trying to get ALP-OS back on track now that it's already been derailed. If your Japanese masters has any sense they would have spent several million dollars hiring some brighter codemonkeys that would enable them to meet their deadlines.

Ki o tsukete

TVoR-san

P.S. I hope you're still trying to learn how to speak Japanese. Eventually you might stop butchering the language... I will pray for you at the temple.

RE: I vote to ban obnoxious comments by TVoR
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 12/17/2006 5:00:10 PM # Q
But anyways, I can understand packing up your marbles and leaving.

How can one pack up what one had lost a long, LONG time go in a tragic CONSPIRACY?

Sometimes people just push you way too far.

And then you snap. Ever seen a PalmSource manager go postal? Kinda like a poodle on amphetamines. Sad, yet funny. In a W T F kind of way...

But if you ever need a hug, freakout is here, in all his handsome, toned, sun-dappled glory...

You might regret making that offer when a certain someone cops a feel*.

TVoR


*Timmmmmay got fingered

RE: I vote to ban obnoxious comments by TVoR
retrospooty @ 12/17/2006 10:21:59 PM # Q
"Golly gee whiz, retrospooty. Does your comment below count as a "personal attack"?"

Uh... If you want to check the timestamps you will see that that comment was later, after your "Ask a grown-up or someone smarter than you (most people?) " comment to me.

Anyhow, I am done for now, see you on the next palm bashing post. I hope it is fulfilling for you. :P

RE: I vote to ban obnoxious comments by TVoR
stonemirror @ 12/19/2006 10:11:33 PM # Q
How fascinating to see preposterous whining about "off-topic tripe" on the one hand, followed almost immediately by things like fabricated (and tediously, pointlessly, inanely, predictably abusive) "memorable quotes" on the other.

"Mr. Kettle! There's a Mr. Pot on the line for you..."

Reply to this comment

I'll let you choose which release date, Beersie...

Sam H @ 12/15/2006 12:19:22 PM # Q
"Motorola will announce they are licensing Palm OS within 6 months of the release of Palm OS for Linux."

Is that within 6 months of the release of the pre-release version of the ACCESS Linux Platform PDK to select licensees, within 6 months of the release of the pre-release version of the ACCESS Linux Platform SDK to select registered developers, within 6 months of the general availability of either or both of the above, or within 6 months of any other date ACCESS can think of?

The choice is yours.

RE: I'll let you choose which release date, Beersie...
cervezas @ 12/15/2006 2:09:35 PM # Q
You already lost the bet, Sam. Motorola became a Palm OS licensee when they acquired Symbol in September. :-)

$100 was our agreement, right?

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: I'll let you choose which release date, Beersie...
Sam H @ 12/15/2006 5:05:12 PM # Q
Motorola became a Palm OS licensee when they acquired Symbol in September.

Motorola hasn't acquired Symbol yet, Beersie, and won't be acquiring it before Symbol's special shareholder meeting on January 9th 2007 ( http://www.symbol.com/5338 ) by which time Symbol will have concluded its Palm OS licensing agreement ( http://www.palminfocenter.com/news/9092/symbol-concludes-palm-os-licensing-agreement/ ) so Motorola will not be a Palm OS licensee through Symbol.

$100 was our agreement, right?

Indeed it was.

RE: I'll let you choose which release date, Beersie...
cervezas @ 12/15/2006 8:08:41 PM # Q
Then I'd say I'm probably going to be owing you $100 because I don't think there's a snowball's chance in hell that Motorola is going to be licensing Palm OS or ALP any other way! :-)


David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com/blog

WHAP! Beersy gets biotchslapped AGAIN. Oh. My. Gawd!
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 12/15/2006 9:42:03 PM # Q
>>>Beersy lied: Motorola became a Palm OS licensee when they acquired Symbol in September.

Sam H biotchslapped: Motorola hasn't acquired Symbol yet, Beersie, and won't be acquiring it before Symbol's special shareholder meeting on January 9th 2007 ( http://www.symbol.com/5338 ) by which time Symbol will have concluded its Palm OS licensing agreement ( http://www.palminfocenter.com/news/9092/symbol-concludes-palm-os-licensing-agreement/ ) so Motorola will not be a Palm OS licensee through Symbol.

I'm starting to think Beersy actually gets off on being beaten senseless. Sick puppy. I think Dianne could probably "help him out" ifyyaknowwhatImean...

TVoR

RE: I'll let you choose which release date, Beersie...
Foo Fighter @ 12/15/2006 10:02:38 PM # Q
If anything it's an embarrassingly pathetic attempt to imply that PalmOS is growing again. Call that what you will, desperation...foolish optimism...or maybe David is simply trying to preserve his business, since he does after all develop for PalmOS. Funny, I'm working on an article right now where I will be posting the thoughts of several major PalmOS developers. All of them voice fears and serious concerns over the future of PalmOS.

-------------------------------
PocketFactory, www.pocketfactory.com
Elitist Snob, www.elitistsnob.com
RE: I'll let you choose which release date, Beersie...
freakout @ 12/16/2006 12:49:33 AM # Q
^^ Good thing Palm are (supposedly) working on an UberWinMob with PalmOS support then. :P

Given that this ancient OS powers the best smartphone around and can do almost anything, I really don't see what the worry is about. UMTS support is really the only thing lacking now.

I am curious as to why Palm haven't bothered to spruce up the UI. It's amazing how much a fresh coat of paint can make it feel more modern. PalmRevolt and FontSmoother show it can be done stably and without much of a hit to performance.

Tim
I apologise for any and all emoticons that appear in my posts. You may shoot them on sight.
Treo 270 ---> Treo 650 ---> Crimson Treo 680

RE: I'll let you choose which release date, Beersie...
cervezas @ 12/16/2006 9:41:31 AM # Q
Voice, you're the one who has a problem telling the difference between truth and opinion, not me.

Foo, as usual, you have a little trouble (either from lack of ability or willful avoidance) with reading. There's no implication about Palm OS growing. Just information about how things might transition. IMO, mobile computing is the future, not Palm OS as we know it. And no, my company isn't the least bit dependent on the future of any one platform. We cover them all.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: I'll let you choose which release date, Beersie...
cervezas @ 12/16/2006 11:07:08 AM # Q
freakout wrote:
Given that this ancient OS powers the best smartphone around and can do almost anything, I really don't see what the worry is about. UMTS support is really the only thing lacking now.

Everyone whose livelihood depends on it worries about the future of Palm OS because it's unknown and it's in our nature to worry about the unknown. Most developers have long ago adapted their businesses to this uncertainty, though. IMO, the average Palm OS user has nothing to worry about while Palm is releasing great devices like the Treo 680. Technology changes, thank God. The work that ACCESS is doing on ALP (just like the work that Palm is doing with Garnet and Linux) is just another possible migration path for Palm afficianados. I find the uncertainty exciting, not worrisome.

I am curious as to why Palm haven't bothered to spruce up the UI. It's amazing how much a fresh coat of paint can make it feel more modern. PalmRevolt and FontSmoother show it can be done stably and without much of a hit to performance.

I'd like to see some sprucing--or major changes--as well. There's a LOT of work to be done on the mobile user interface and I don't know anyone that's being as inventive as they should be right now.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: I'll let you choose which release date, Beersie...
Sam H @ 12/16/2006 8:49:58 PM # Q
Then I'd say I'm probably going to be owing you $100 because I don't think there's a snowball's chance in hell that Motorola is going to be licensing Palm OS or ALP any other way! :-)

I feel bad taking your money Beersie, it's just too easy. Tell you what, donate the $100 to Oxfam ( https://donate.oxfamamerica.org/02/oxfamamerica?source=fy06_don_oa_home ) and we'll call it quits.

RE: I'll let you choose which release date, Beersie...
ThunderCracker @ 12/17/2006 1:00:22 AM # Q
I disagree about the 680 being a great device. Lack of 3g means that this is simply the device the 650 should have been. It is 24 months too late. Add 3g, and that changes to being 4 months too late.



Palm III --> Compaq Areo 1550 --> Palm IIIc --> Visor Edge --> Casio EM500 --> Sony T415 --> Compaq 3670 --> Dell Axim x5 Advanced --> Sony SJ20 --> Palm T|E --> HP H1945/T610 --> Dell Axim X30 --> Axim X50v --> Treo 600 --> Palm T|X --> Blackberry 6230 --> Treo 650 --> Blackberry 7100t --> BB 7290 --> Samsung Blackjack

RE: I'll let you choose which release date, Beersie...
freakout @ 12/17/2006 1:49:13 AM # Q
^^ I disagree with your disagreement. Palm have made some excellent software improvements in the 680 and the new form factor feels great. 3G data and devices are still quite pricey so I'm actually kinda glad it's not 3G. If you need 3G data there's the 700series or 750v - and they have the price tag to match.

Considering the 650 was Palm's first smartphone (after the Handspring acquisition), I think they did a bloody good job. I would still be using mine today, if the prospect of a red Treo hadn't been so damn alluring. ;)

Tim
I apologise for any and all emoticons that appear in my posts. You may shoot them on sight.
Treo 270 ---> Treo 650 ---> Crimson Treo 680

Way-OT: RE: I'll let you choose
SeldomVisitor @ 12/17/2006 7:46:29 AM # Q
> ...give to Oxfam...

Rather inefficient charity - large admin/fundraising costs. From one of their web pages:

== "...allocated an average of nearly 80 percent of its...

That is, LESS than 80% went to the actual charitable causes with MORE than 20% being taken by admins and fundraising (that is, money in someone's pocket).

America's Second Harvest, my fave (bias!), has a 98% rate.

Already donated to Oxfam... also looking at Kiva
cervezas @ 12/17/2006 1:01:08 PM # Q
I'm very impressed with the approach of giving microloans to small entrepreneurs in the developing world. Kiva has set up an interesting way to do this online: http://kiva.org/app.php

100% goes to the recipient, it's the "fishing rod" vs "fish" approach to helping people, and you almost always get paid back so you can relend and keep expanding your support.

And yeah, Sam, I'll gladly add another $100 to my Oxfam donation.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: I'll let you choose which release date, Beersie...
Sam H @ 12/17/2006 4:54:38 PM # Q
:-)
Reply to this comment

Good to know ACCESS reads Palminfocenter

ChiA @ 12/15/2006 12:50:42 PM # Q
I'm sure there are many at Palm who read it too. Let's hope both companies take on board our constructive suggestions, especially w.r.t. a Treo with wifi. Colligan asks us to "stay tuned" but his signal's getting fainter and fainter as HTC, Nokia, Samsung, UBiQUiO etc crank up the power on their wifi devices.
RE: Good to know ACCESS reads Palminfocenter
ThunderCracker @ 12/15/2006 3:26:36 PM # Q
Any why oh why would they taking our suggestions now?

Palm III --> Compaq Areo 1550 --> Palm IIIc --> Visor Edge --> Casio EM500 --> Sony T415 --> Compaq 3670 --> Dell Axim x5 Advanced --> Sony SJ20 --> Palm T|E --> HP H1945/T610 --> Dell Axim X30 --> Axim X50v --> Treo 600 --> Palm T|X --> Blackberry 6230 --> Treo 650 --> Blackberry 7100t --> BB 7290 --> Samsung Blackjack
Reply to this comment

Does the World Need ALP?

ChiA @ 12/17/2006 1:27:43 PM # Q
Access promotes its ALP as being a fast way of bringing a smartphone to market. I see this and the Palm OS emulator as the only advantages which ALP have over Windows Mobile, Symbian and other offerings. Access have not promoted what technical and user advantages ALP will have over competing mobile operating systems; for all we (and I suspect ACCESS) know ALP may end up from the user's perspective being as fiddly to use as Windows Mobile.

The million dollar question is, do device manufacturers have a problem bringing devices to market quickly because of the OS? I ask this in view of the plethora of WinMob 5.0 devices we've seen released in 2006 and those waiting to be unleashed early in 2007. If these manufacturers have no problems then there's the real risk that ALP will end up gathering dust on the shelf next to Cobalt.

RE: Does the World Need ALP?
cervezas @ 12/17/2006 7:14:01 PM # Q
ChiA wrote:
Access promotes its ALP as being a fast way of bringing a smartphone to market. I see this and the Palm OS emulator as the only advantages which ALP have over Windows Mobile, Symbian and other offerings. Access have not promoted what technical and user advantages ALP will have over competing mobile operating systems; for all we (and I suspect ACCESS) know ALP may end up from the user's perspective being as fiddly to use as Windows Mobile.

The million dollar question is, do device manufacturers have a problem bringing devices to market quickly because of the OS?

I had a chance to talk with Tomihisa Kamada (ACCESS CTO) and Didier Diaz (SVP, Product Strategy Mgmt) back in August and Mr. Kamada put it to me this way (paraphrased): Right now there is a lot of interest in Linux by device vendors and wireless operators but in its current state integrating mobile Linux onto a handset is very complicated. The task can be simplified if you don't try to build a very complex phone (hence all the Linux feature phones washing across Asia) but to build smartphones that will compete with ones running OSes like Windows Mobile or Symbian is a challenge that's beyond all but a few very large vendors. The goal of ALP is to move mobile Linux into a second phase where vendors that don't have enormous resources (think Korea, China, and Taiwan) will be able to create sophisticated Linux smartphones and get them to market quickly.

These smaller vendors are cumulatively quite large in terms of their total share of the worldwide smart device market: according to Canalys they ship roughly as many devices as four of the top five vendors combined (all but Nokia, that is): http://www.palminfocenter.com/news/8823/world-smart-mobile-device-market-grows-55/

This isn't to say that ACCESS wasn't interested in selling ALP licenses to top-5 companies like Palm (for the US) and Sharp (for Japan) when they acquired PalmSource, but I interpreted the remark to mean that they think the biggest opportunity is selling to vendors that fall in Canalys' "Others" category. I don't have numbers to back this up, but I'm guessing that quite a few of those "Others" are already customers of other ACCESS products, like the NetFront Mobile Client Suite and browser, the mPhone and mLinux platforms, their JV-Lite2 Java platform, etc. Let's just put it this way: given ACCESS's client list I figure they've for some time now had a pretty good list of vendors that they have good reason to believe will become ALP licensees.

The bigger question in my mind isn't whether the world needs the ACCESS Linux Platform, it's whether ACCESS needs the likes of Palm users living in a wireless mobile backwater such as the United States.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: Does the World Need ALP?
PenguinPowered @ 12/17/2006 9:21:48 PM # Q
The problem with ALP is that you don't demonstrate that your product will help your customers be quick to market by being late yourself.

The Green phone tool kit is now available and actually shipping for anyone who wants to slap together a Linux smartphone.

If ALP continues to slip and Access continues to make up stories about how it's not slipping, I would not be surprised to see a repeat of the GSPDA fiasco where GSPDA announced a Cobalt phone that they never shipped; instead shipping a SavajeOS based Smartphone they call Jasper.

Eventually Nokia's going to drop the other shoe on Maemo.

Someday, although apparently not this decade, Google's going to get their smartphone out.

Moto's not hanging around waiting for everybody else.

iPhone, which is a dumb phone/mp3 player, is due out any day now, leaving one to wonder when Apple's smartphone will hit the street.



May You Live in Interesting Times

RE: Does the World Need ALP?
cervezas @ 12/17/2006 10:37:28 PM # Q
PenguinPowered wrote:
The problem with ALP is that you don't demonstrate that your product will help your customers be quick to market by being late yourself.

Those are two different things, as you well know. Just because Microsoft was years late in shipping Vista doesn't mean it takes longer for Dell to install it on a new PC.

I know it's unfashionable to say this on PIC, but I don't really see any evidence that ACCESS is "making up stories," they're just being a bit cagey. Go back and read the original announcement: http://www.access-company.com/news/press/Current/021406_accesslinuxplatform.html

As some people commented at the time (http://www.palminfocenter.com/comments/8388/#118624) they carefully avoided saying they were going to have an SDK ready for developers this year (which would imply that all the APIs for a 1.0 release were fixed in stone). Instead they only promised ACCESS would "make the ALP Software Developer Kit (SDK) available to its licensees by the end of this year." And from the sound of it that's exactly what they've done.

I've never developed an operating system, much less a complete platform with built-in applications and an SDK, but I've worked with some top-notch teams on applications with a couple million lines of code that had to be shipped within a two year timeframe. Considering what was apparently jettisoned from the original work of porting Cobalt to Linux (everything but Binder, as far as I can tell) I don't think a 12-18 month timeframe for ALP sounds all that bad.

I'm going to be interested to see the application framework that ACCESS releases this month. It sounds like a pretty substantial contribution that addresses several of the areas that MLI and LIPS identified as gaps that needed to be filled in mobile Linux. Who else is grappling with the fragmentation issue and making this kind of open source contribution right now? Not Trolltech. Not a la Mobile. Not Motorola (at least not yet). Nokia, yes, but not for smartphones... yet.



David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: Does the World Need ALP?
PenguinPowered @ 12/18/2006 4:22:40 AM # Q
The sentence you quote wasn't meant to stand alone.

Let me make the point more clearly: Access is very late to market and the position they hoped to stake out has already been taken by Trolltech with their Green phone.

You're splitting hairs. Throwing a snapshot of the current source tree over the fence doesn't qualify as a release whether it's to licensees or to everyone, and Access didn't say "prerelease", they said "SDK". No matter how you look at it, Maureen's spin doctoring.

What kind of open source contribution? AFIACT, the only open source contributions out of PSRC/Access have been OMAP bug fixes I did over a year ago, and OpenBinder, which was only contributed because people leaving the company wanted to use it on their next product -- and, AFAICT, are the only people using it.

How does that compare to, say, scratchbox and the open parts of maemo?


May You Live in Interesting Times

Is Beersy paid to Astroturf for Access or is he just CLUELESS???
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 12/18/2006 5:03:50 AM # Q
[I've previously given Beersy the benefit of the doubt, but if he really is trying to get people here to believe that Access is on schedule with their development of ALP-OS then we'll know he's being paid to Astroturf for Access/Palmsource.]

Beersy, please cut the BULL. Access is putting out the equivalent of an alpha when they promised a finished product. Many readers here will remember that in late December 2003, PalmSource vomited out a half-baked version of Cobalt, just so they could claim they had met their (unrealistic) release target. It seems fitting that Access is now carrying on this illustrious PalmSource tradition.

Sadly, Access is going to learn (the hard way) the same lesson that PalmSource did with Cobalt: if your company's product portfolio consists solely of B.S., excuses and Vaporware, you will be shunned and slowly die.

I expect soon (within 6 months) after bora is released, Nokia will finally announce its first Maemo-based smartphone. This will be right around the time Access finally admits it is catastrophically behind schedule and switches to "Plan B".

TVoR

RE: Does the World Need ALP?
cervezas @ 12/18/2006 8:02:36 AM # Q
Marty, I agree that ACCESS would be a lot better off if ALP was shipping in completed form today, including a reference handset like the Greenphone. But in case you haven't been reading about it, the Greenphone itself is itself a pre-release, Trolltech's spin notwithstanding: http://crunchgear.com/2006/11/24/battle-test-trolltech-otopia-greenphone/

And the Trolltech product that is comparable in the completeness of the integration work to ALP is not due until Q2 of 2007: http://linuxdevices.com/news/NS7481799748.html

It seems like Trolltech has an edge with Linux hackers who can get started on developing applications for the Greenphone, but it's not at all clear that they have the edge in delivering what second-tier OEMs need to get a complete smartphone to market. I don't think we'll know that for several months.

I agree that Nokia has made some important contributions to open source and I used them as an example of a company that's done better in this than ACCESS to date. What I was talking about is the application framework ACCESS is about to release. Naturally, it all depends on adoption, but it sounds like a contribution that strikes at the heart of the fragmentation problem. For one thing, it's being released under the liberal Mozilla license, which will make it easier and/or cheaper to combine with other components than Qtopia is. Trolltech does the popular open source "extortion" technique where they tell you: "Sure it's open source--it's GPL. Oh, GPL won't let you combine non-GPL components X and Y with it? That's ok, you can buy a commercial license from us." That's not going to help create an open standard.

Not that ACCESS is going to open the source of the whole MAX framework, just that if the part they are releasing is what they claim it's the first contribution I know of that really addresses the standards-building work that has been done by MLI and, particularly, LIPS. Do you know others? This is important. As you know, mobile Linux has a good chance of frittering off into irrelevancy if some standard ways of doing things aren't settled, like managing and securing applications to the satisfaction of twitchy wireless carriers.

My concern is not so much that ACCESS is way behind the competition--I don't see it. My concern is that they didn't become an obvious Redhat-like market leader, which would have helped them champion the standards needed to avoid fragmentation. And that's the biggest danger right now. I'm worried that Motorola/NEC/Panasonic and Co. which haven't done *anything* to date, will be able to crush the fragile progress toward standards too easily under the weight of their combined market muscle. How serious are they about open standards? How serious is *anybody* about standards right now? We still don't know. That's my biggest concern for ALP and for Linux in general.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: Does the World Need ALP?
cervezas @ 12/18/2006 9:06:53 PM # Q
More Greenphone problems: http://www.thisismobility.com/blog/?p=256

Does the world need ALP? If not it's not on account of Trolltech.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: Does the World Need ALP?
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 4/25/2007 2:12:19 AM # Q
As usual, TVoR was right.

Access missed their deadline and tried to pull the wool over everyone's eyes with a load of crap.

Is their recently-released (March 2007) SDK truly finished now? . Or was it another example or a release desined to save face among the developer community + with potential customers? YOU decide.

http://dl.access-company.com/sdk/sdk.tgz

TVoR

RE: Does the World Need ALP?
SeldomVisitor @ 4/25/2007 6:25:53 AM # Q
Hmmm...that's interesting...when I surf over to:

-- http://dl.access-company.com/sdk

instead of the file you gave the URL for, I get a directory listing instead of invoking the hide-us-please "index.html" that is also there...perhaps if it had been named "index.htm" it would have "worked"? I used both Firefox and IE to try to get a blank page - no go, get the directory listing. Clicked directly on the "index.html" and got the blank page they wanted. Same thing with the parent directory, BTW.

Great programming, great testing!


RE: Does the World Need ALP?
SeldomVisitor @ 4/25/2007 6:33:37 AM # Q
Oh, I see. Looking at the page source I see it's a fake directory listing...how strange!

OH, now Access has removed the pages. How clever...
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 4/26/2007 12:15:41 AM # Q

BR>

Dumba$$es.

I downloaded the file earlier this week, so if anyone wants a copy of this 485 MB zip I'm sure it might "accidentally" get out into the wild...


TVoR

RE: Does the World Need ALP?
PenguinPowered @ 4/26/2007 2:18:00 PM # Q
the tgz file's still there. they just fixed their server so that it's serving the index file if you surf to the directory.

I wouldn't sweat it though. It's just maemo, debianized, with the ALP widget set.

and a very old version of gcc

May You Live in Interesting Times

RE: Does the World Need ALP?
SeldomVisitor @ 4/26/2007 4:10:03 PM # Q
Actually, they WERE serving the index file if you surfed to their directory - it contents were simply a fake listing of the directory as if there was no index file.

Not sure why other than goofing off someone would do that, but that's what they did.

One assumes their index file was named "index.htm" and had contents faking a directory listing that contained "index.html".

RE: Does the World Need ALP?
cervezas @ 4/26/2007 4:28:25 PM # Q
Somebody was in a hurry and didn't know how to change the access rights on that directory. Pretty funny.

The facts are these:

1) ACCESS did release the SDK to *some* developers in the Early Access program and they did it when they said they would.
2) They've gone through several revisions since the initial release.
3) They've done a terrible job explaining to developers what they are doing, for example, not explaining to developers who haven't been given access what is going on and why the SDK isn't generally available, or at least available to everyone that was approved for the Early Access program.

As far as 1 and 2 are concerned, this is exactly as it should be. As much as some would wish otherwise, Job #1 for ACCESS right now is not to try to support the whole 3rd party developer community (i.e. make the whole world your beta test group). It's to give the best support possible to the developers who are writing apps that the ODMs and carrier want to ship in ROM on the first devices. No problem there. Ask any developer which they would rather see first, the SDK or the devices, and most will tell you "devices."

As for 3, I'm just shaking my head. I don't know if it's the notorious opacity of Japanese corporate culture or just garden variety incompetence in managing PR, but the deafening silence coming out of that organization together with the tiny effort that would be required to avoid looking like liars to the ecosystem they claim they want to cultivate... well, it just makes you wonder. They've got all our email addresses and once in a blue moon they put out a developer newsletter. So just send out a letter that says something like this:

"Thanks for your patience and your interest in the ACCESS Linux Platform. We have just released version 0.6 of the SDK to our beta group and are getting great response. The applications to our Early Access beta program have been overwhelming, and to ensure that our engineers can stay focused on improving the code and documentation instead of reading email we've had to limit the size of the beta group. This also helps us give the attention we need to the ODMs and carriers that are developing ALP-powered products for the market. We're guessing that you're as eager to hear these product announcements as we are, and your patience helps us make this happen. We'll be inviting more of you in as we progress toward the general release."

It just seems so easy.

I'm waiting to get the latest version of Ubuntu installed before I check the SDK out more closely, and I understand from another developer that this is missing some things that have been released subsequently. But for those who are interested, here's what I see in the SDK (from by blog post earlier in the week):

* ALP Development Suite based on Eclipse CDT (familiar to PODS users)
* Scratchbox development environment for ALP
* Scratchbox arm-gcc3.4.4 and i486-gcc3.4.4 toolchains for ALP
* User-mode Linux (UML) a kind of virtual machine that runs Linux as a user process under another Linux kernel. Includes userspace utilities like uml_mconsole, uml_moo, uml_switch, uml_net and tunctl.
* ALP Simulator, based on UML kernel
* ALP GDB for debugging both ARM and UML targets from Scratchbox
* ALP UI Builder based on Glade-3 with MAX widget set integration (based on the development snapshot of Glade-3 from gnome.org)
* Rootstraps for booting the ARM device and UML simulator
* Java runtime for the ALP Development Suite (i.e. for running the tools themselves, not for running Java ME stuff)
* Documentation for both open source and ALP middleware components, including a Getting Started page for first time users
* Sample projects that illustrate GTK and GLADE widget usage and good coding practices (clean, commented, formatted)



David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: Does the World Need ALP?
PenguinPowered @ 4/26/2007 8:42:50 PM # Q
IOW, you've got MAEMO but with ALP widgets.

May You Live in Interesting Times
RE: Does the World Need ALP? No, it doesn't.
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 4/27/2007 12:00:48 AM # Q
IOW, you've got MAEMO but with ALP widgets.


No, Marty. In other words you've got Cobalt:

pure, unadulterated VAPORWARE that will be shipping on exactly NO devices near you any time soon.

TVoR

RE: Does the World Need ALP?
PenguinPowered @ 4/27/2007 1:38:46 AM # Q
You're being too harsh. Most of the stuff on that list already ships on real hardware from Nokia, or is widely used to develop such software.

Access is, after all, heavily leveraging open source stuff for ALP.


May You Live in Interesting Times

Reply to this comment
Start a New Comment Thread Top

Account

Register Register | Login Log in
user:
pass: