Comments on: Palm Announces New Foleo PIM Software and Games

We don't really know what software the Foleo will include because the product is still in development. Could very well be that Palm will license mDayscape or some other PIM applications.

Either way, if you want to focus attention on the lead solution (email), keep things simple, reduce cost, and attract developers to a new platform (all of which are critical for Foleo's success) it's actually a good thing to leave it to 3rd parties to create most of the applications. I've been thinking that Palm really needed to ship the Foleo with PIM apps included, but I'm starting to question that a little bit. The fact that there are so many different PIM apps and suites for Palm OS is a clue that it might not be enough of a "one-size-fits-all" application that it should be baked into ROM. I know the basic PIM apps don't quite meet my personal needs, so I'm a bit ambivalent as to whether they should be foisted on everyone else who buys a Foleo. But maybe that's a power-user viewpoint.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com/blog

Very Nice? This is excellent news. Although I was surprised Palm Desktop does not ship with Foleo.

Once SplashData get a few apps on Foleo then I will buy one.

Since Foleo announcement I have looked at what I really use my laptop for and have decide it spends alot of time starting/closing, warming my knees, being charged up, the valuable time is: using Palm PIM, Splash Money, SplashID, WeaterMAnager, Email, Internet and minor Office docs work. Foleo will meet all my needs if a few more 3rd parties make the leap. If it will back-up my Palm too then I will start taking offers on one used Panasonic Toughbook :)

Time will tell....

BG
_______________________________
From the other side of the water

No memos. Enough said.

Moreover at 600$ (because that's the real price) the cost cutting point somehow escapes me.

--------------------------
Hey Admin: Why do we have to keep two profiles?

i use/prefer the built-in PIM but then again i'm a minimalist. it's simple, clean, and effective. however, i do like outlook on the desktop but not necessarily because of its power or complexity but because of its tight integration with PIM and email and unified solution. i prefer to KISS whenever i can and i don't want to manage multiple devices and PIM apps. most businesspeople do not want to manage/charge/sync/fight/fumble with multiple devices.

Cervezas,

you may argue that it gives more choices to users if PIM is provided by a 3rd party (and I don't agree with you ...) but the key question is not the application but the data format!

You can use Palm PIM, Agendus, Datebk or something else, they are basically all compatible because they use the same data format (with some tweaks). So, if you don't define the standard format, every 3rd party app will have a different format, leaving them all incompatible to each other. I wouldn't call that freedom of choice (well, maybe, but not freedom of switch ...).

IIIe -> m505 -> T3 -> Treo650 -> Treo680

I completely agree too. While it's nice there's some third party development, it's absolutely nuts that the PIM stuff isn't built-in to the Folio. You should be able to use it as a PDA out of the box if you want to. I actually considered that until I found out it didn't actually ship with useful software.

A $500 Dell laptop would be the same price...and could use Palm Desktop (in addition to a full OS)!

All this talk about data format... For me personally, I see the LACK of a data format as an advantage. Why? Because it's the CONDUIT that makes the difference, anyway...

I've been "stuck" in a corporate environment that uses GroupWise -- which I'm not against, but it has proven more than difficult to provide a good, reliable sync of information between the Palm OS PDA's/devices and GroupWise. Yes, there's a few conduits that claim to sync to GroupWise, but each has its own foibles. The vast majority do NOT sync to GroupWise with any kind of reliability. Or you can get full GroupWise syncing by using 3rd-party apps -- but then you give up the ability to sync to the built-in PIM apps. SO: use the built-ins and get questionable reliability or use a 3rd-party app and lose the ability to sync with the built-in (and/or use a more powerful PIM app like DateBk).

DateBk is a highly used app on my device, but it uses the built-in database. What I want is a CONDUIT that is reliable to sync between the two (the built-in database and GroupWise). I don't particularly care if there's a true "DateBk-desktop" or not; I just want to be able to sync the basic information from one to the other. I use my handheld more than GroupWise, anyway -- but that only works for me; others need to see when I have appointments that I've added directly on the PDA. And I need to know if someone's tried to schedule an appointment with me in GroupWise.

The built-in Palm OS database already has a data format -- that most everyone is using. Why do we need YET ANOTHER data format for the Folio? Why can't we INSTEAD focus on getting a good conduit between the built-in database and whatever other PIM you want to use? Let the Folio be the go-between for the data if some kind of conversion needs to take place... Just give me a good conduit.

-e

SO let's see....I can buy a nice $500 Dell dual-core laptop w/ DVD drive & Vista plus an $80 Z22 with PIM functions built-in. Or I can buy a neutered Foleo for approximately the same amount. Hmmmmm......decisions, decisions.

Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5-->TX-->Treo 700P

>Don't forget that on/off button, it's revolutionary, it's going to change the way computing is done for the next century.

good stuff. if i hear about that damn on/off button one more time i'm going to puke.

but........it.......... has........... *EMAIL*!!!!

Killer app!!!!! Bet the farm on it, Palm. And don't worry about fixing the 700p firmware or any minor petty stuff like that (just make them buy the 755 if they want Bluetooth to work) - the Fooleo will revolutionize the earth.

** if i hear about that d*** on/off button one more time i'm going to puke. **

Hey Lizard Boy. Cheers ...

http://tinyurl.com/yuofqa

Pat Horne

Hey Vampire,

As much as I loathe the Fooleo, don't come with that Hotmail stuff. You can't combine two misconcepted ideas and complain that they don't work together.

IIIe -> m505 -> T3 -> Treo650 -> Treo680

My lawd, somebody convert that bitmap!

Pat Horne

Does it support GTK, QT or any other? If not, there is no way you can import FOSS programs in the Foleo, even if it runs the Linux kernel.

>>>it's linux based! this means that there will be endless amount of open-source programs easily compiled to work on foleo! you will get every third party program you need for free.

ROTFLMAO.

HAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!

The same bloody thing was said for the Nokia Anti-Net Tabs. Have you looked to see how much REAL WORKING stuff has been ported to THOSE?

Anyway, at least THIS thing will have a REAL PIM app. I just hope it damn well WORKS.

Not that I'm buying one. Forget that!

Oh wow. Just what I wanted -- games, games, and remotely wanking my home PC?

Do you people do any effing WORK?!

It will be usable without the Treo. The only big issue if you follow the webcast is that there is no true hard drive so it relies on the phone for certain settings that can not be saved in a flash memory, that is easily fixed by the dedicated CF slot.

> ...The Treo and the Foleo auto-sync....

Wow!

That sounds SO COOL!

But...ya wanna know sumthin'?

It's SO WRONG, too!

Only that data which has been programmed around correctly will auto-sync.

From all appearances, there is an email program that has been implemented to do this, correctly or not, with special software running on both the Treo and Fooleo. There has been one further recent PR-fluff saying m-something software will be coming Real Soon Now that also has specially been programmed - one assumes something on the TREO also has been specially programmed - the PR-fluff, BTW, does NOT mention bidirectional data syncing so it's not clear up-front whether or not that is doable even with the special software implementation.

Wrong - they said the EMAIL syncing was bidirectional - that post you responded to was about the m-whatever application.

I just checked - the PR-fluff for the m-etc stuff does not mention bidirectional syncing however if one follows the link to the developer's web site it DOES mention manual bidirectional syncing for what it manipulates.

Note - if one wants to take the web site literally - and that's my usual MO - it says "things you add on the Foleo" are synced and "information you enter on your TREO" is synced when you manually invoke the sync. It doesn't say "things you edit on the Foleo".

Nit picky? Perhaps, but edited material is sufficiently more complex than merely added material that, unless someone says "Tada!" I look at the words with the jaded view first.

Please note I was writing my response before yours showed up (simultaneous).

It's not FUD, fanboy, it's discussion on what the Fooleo REALLY can do and what Fanboys and Marketing Types want us to THINK it can do. I like discussing what's there, not what's imagined.

Well, gee, that's nice!

So, are you saying "Tada!"?

Tada?

No. I think you should go back and read what I wrote.

But now that you've trotted out the "fanboy" word you've made it clear that you're the one who is tired of dealing with facts. (Guess it's hard when you can't find any to support your position.) I'm surprised you didn't mention that the "PR Fluff" said nothing about whether the synchronization randomly changes the dates of your appointments or not. Since they don't specify this you just never know. Let's not leave anything up to the imagination shall we?

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com/blog

I don't even know what "auto sync" means. Is this some term that Palm has used? I've heard the term "continuous synchronization" used as distinguished from a user-initiated sync, but I don't think any of us really know what that means yet. Is it like ActiveSync? Is it something that happens when you click a Save button? *Is* there a save button in a Foleo application? Does "continuous" just mean the Foleo runs a sync session periodically in the background? These are the real questions, not the silly ones SV is concocting.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com/blog

So I'm a fanboy and a tool. And to complete your "discussion of what's there" we have: "Giggle." Do you think people don't know the difference between reasoned discussion and ad hominem attacks?

Calling your previous posts FUD is not a personal attack, it's pointing out that you were operating in the realm of "what if" instead of talking about facts that we can all look at. Worse, you're stating technical judgments about the complexity of certain aspects of synchronization as if they were fact when they are pure invention and verifiably wrong. And when called on this you shift the argument to the personality of the one who pointed out your error.

Those are the facts about this "discussion." I won't insult the readers' intelligence by drawing the conclusions for them.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com/blog

SeldomVisitor wrote:

Hellooooo...are we reading the same Marketing Crap from Palm about the Fooleo?

Or for THAT matter, are we reading the same message up there from V-etc where he mentions auto-syncing?

Or are you just being a fanboy jerk?

Sigh.

Ok, here's all Palm had to say about "automatic" synchronization in the press release about mDayscape:

"Using MotionApps' Quick Add feature, a user can add a new calendar event in seconds, and the event will be mirrored automatically on the user's smartphone.

No one except the OP has said anything about Foleo just magically (with no coding by the application developer) synchronizing every piece of data with the smartphone. In my first post on this thread (as well as yours) we disabused him of this notion and the subject was dropped. (Except for your insightful "Tada" comment, which I think most of us took to just be you playing dumb.) The part of the conversation you're trying to divert attention from now is the part where you were inventing imaginary limitations of the synchronization that were either explicitly falsified on the MotionApps web site or by the facts of how synchronization is actually accomplished in the real world.

I realize you're trying to save face, but while your methods for doing so may have worked on the elementary school playground, they probably don't play so well with adult readers. (Lucky for you there don't seem to be that many of them here on PIC!)

How about you end this now before you dig yourself any deeper and waste more of everyone's time? Some of us would probably like to get on to discussing real questions and plausible problems with how synchronization works between Foleo and a smartphone.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com/blog

The giggle is contagious - used Net-Wide! But usually now (!!!) not by me.

Mike, I can't think of any reason *in principle* why Foleo wouldn't sync with Palm PDAs. The OS is the same. The applications are, in relevant respects, the same. Of course *in principle* and *in fact* have been known to be two different things.

One place you could look for potential problems: does Bluetooth sync between your PDA and the desktop work ok? Does "beaming" data between your PDA and another over Bluetooth work ok in apps that support that? If the answer is "no" to either of those you might guess you could run into trouble with Foleo sync. If the answer is "yes" to both, well, the best I can say is maybe you're in luck.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com/blog

No need to apologize for doubting. While I'm pretty down with the Foleo *concept* I have all kinds of doubts about whether Palm has enough of the old greatness left (or maybe some new greatness) to make Foleo live up to its promise.

Obviously Palm has limited resources, and they've also had some pretty big execution and support problems. I don't pretend to be able to pinpoint the source of those problems or to know what kind of changes are or are not happening within the company to make sure they don't happen again. Things could be improving or maybe not at all, for all I know. But I can say this: there are some *really* bright people who were brought into the company to develop the Foleo. Also some people who are super-committed to developer support. As I'm sure you can imagine, it's a separate team from the ones that work on the Treos. Cause to give Palm the benefit of the doubt on this one? You tell me... I always lean toward optimism.

I don't think Palm's PDAs were ever seriously meant to be mobile phone companions the way the Foleo is, do you? They certainly never touted that idea very loudly before now. And as you know, the carriers are pretty ambivalent about BT DUN. You can get your wireless bill whacked pretty bad if you succeed in using it and try to do it very much. I think that's probably one of the reasons why Palm didn't want Foleo to depend on BT DUN.

Here's the thing about Palm and PDAs. It's not just limited engineering resources. It's also marketing and brand management. I just don't think they're interested in promoting the vision of disconnected devices any more, and even though you *can* connect your PDA to a phone or use WiFi, in the mass consciousness where marketing has to operate these are still just organizers. Palm wants to have the company name associated with one really strong brand, and that brand is Treo. Treo *means* "Internet in your pocket" in a way "Zire" or "Tungsten" or "PDA" never will, no matter what features you give those devices. Even Foleo, which is technically no more connected than a TX points to Treo: it's a smartphone companion. It looks like a totally useful standalone computer for students, journalists, writers, housewives and all kinds of people that don't care about smartphones, but I doubt you'll ever hear Palm give this idea more than the most fleeting mention. It's because their megaphone is only so big and they've got to make one loud sound come out of it so people hear and remember: "your smartphone is your new personal computer."

I'm sure the Foleo guys are crossing their fingers that Palm gets their Treo house in order, because they are going to need to restore their good name around the Treo for Foleo to succeed, even if Foleo does work with other smartphones. Foleo has to reach a certain level of credibility before other smartphone vendors are going to bother with adding support for it to their phones. Maybe third party developers will be able to add this support: I certainly hope so, because if smartphones are to take off like Foleo needs them to, Palm is going to have a difficult time keeping up support for all the new handsets that come out.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com/blog

hkklife wrote:

But at any rate, what worries me now after your post is that it seems like that may be a decisive line being drawn in the sands of Sunnyvale outside Palm HQ. The Treo gang on one side & the Foleo team on the other.

That's not what I was saying. I don't have any inside info about Palm Inc politics, I just know that every product a company makes has its own team, and I'm supposing that because Foleo is a product that involves unique hardware, operating system and software, its development team is somewhat more independent than the rest.

Yes i agree wholeheartedly with Beersie that Palm PDAs were never seriously intended to be mobile phone companions. But they SHOULD have been. Palm could have SO nicely segued into the Foleo concept HAD they pushed *HARD* for all of their PDAs beginning with the T|T as "cell phone companions".

I wish they had done that, too. I would like to have seen something with an M500 form factor that was just a Bluetooth-connected dumb terminal to my smartphone. Think how sleek and inexpensive that would have been with no need for storage and scarcely any need for a processor. Just a big, bright touchscreen that runs your Treo apps as if they were on a TX. Then Palm could have rolled out a doubled-sized 960x640 version for users that wanted something like Michael Mace's InfoPad that's focused on capturing handwritten notes, reading eBooks and browsing the web on a large screen: http://mobileopportunity.blogspot.com/2006/05/desperately-seeking-info-pad.html

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com/blog

>> ...The Treo and the Foleo auto-sync....
>
> Wow!
>
> That sounds SO COOL!
>
> But...ya wanna know sumthin'?
>
> It's SO WRONG, too!
>
> Only that data which has been programmed around correctly will auto-sync.
>
> From all appearances, there is an email program that has been implemented
> to do this, correctly or not, with special software running on both the
> Treo and Fooleo...

== "...All Treos should work, Palm OS Treos send the Foleo email client
== info from a special version of Versamail. Windows Mobile Treos run
== a little client and link their Outlook Account to the Foleo. The Palm
== reps weren't sure if the Windows Mobile client would run on other
== Windows Mobile devices, such as smartphones and/or pocket pcs..."

-- http://discussion.treocentral.com//showpost.php?p=1325468&postcount=7

=================

If each and every application that "auto-syncs" with the Fooleo needs to be...special...what does this suggest about how many such applications are on the way? That is to say, if you are Joe Blow Developer are you going to distribute TWO versions of all your software PLUS and addiiton "small client" for the Fooleo, too?

I don't recall anyone coming out and saying it exactly, but I haven't seen any cables and there is talk about how the proximity of the phone can be used to unlock the Foleo for better security if you wish, so that sounds like Bluetooth to me.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com/blog

I'm supposing that sync happens via a communications protocol like OBEX, which is part of most Bluetooth stacks. The sync logic could be implemented in any programming language, per the requirements of the specific phone platform.

Developing for Foleo is almost certainly done in C, this being Linux. But Ben Combee mentioned once that Palm is very interested in supporting Java and SuperWaba developers, too. Since Sun opened the source of their JVMs it shouldn't be too hard to put a good Java environment in there. Usually Perl, Python and Ruby are easy to port (or just work) on Linux platforms, too.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com/blog

And how would you sync those documents to a Treo or other device? Isn't another layer needed for that, or is this all handled by the device's OS?

W.r.t. the java comment I made - that was based off of how FAST the applications mentioned in the article this message thread is a commentary to (...) came out.

Java "applications" are REAL fast to "port" from platform to platform.

LOL

Dead server and they're on vacation so no one's around to fix it? The URL still "works" in that it clears DNS lookup.

Yes they are in San Francisco, and most definitely in business.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com/blog

Could you possible be running out of topics to spread your lies and FUD on the Foleo today?

Seldom, I was referring to TVOR, whose anti-palm shilling has reached new levels of lowness.

Oh no a vendor's website is temporarily down! They must be out of business!!! What will become of the foleo now?

Motionapps is based in Frisco, which as anyone knows suffered some major power problems yesterday:

http://hardware.slashdot.org/hardware/07/07/24/2210255.shtml

You are interestingly increasingly bitter in your posts.

Something has indeed bit you.

David; Thanks for the nod.

While I still maintain that the Fooleo is still, conceptually (I've yet to fondle one), one of the worst ideas brought to market by ANYONE since the 3Com Audrey or the original DIVX format, I am still a staunch supporter of the Palm platform and, overall, Palm Inc.

I have invested an emormous amount of time, effort, and $ into the Palm platform over the past decade +. It pains me to see the repeated fumbles made by the Palm companies, Palm's lack of a cohesive product roadmap and strategy, and their blatant disdain for their dwindling-but-still-vocal loyal userbase. That said, I will stick with POS (in whatever iteration it takes--no, I do not consider the Foleo one of those) until there are no more devices left running it and/or nothing left to suit my purposes. I still maintain that for my purposes, WM6 & the various BlackBerry devices are unsatisfactory alternatives.

I call a spade a spade and will dish out compliments as well as criticism as I see fit. With Palm Inc. it's unfortunately usually more of the later BUT still not enough to drive me from the platform. Heck, if anything, it only makes me more adamant to see things change and the company try to return to the glory years of '96-'00.

Unlike David and many others (anonymous or not) on this site, I have zero affiliation with the mobile computing industry aside from what I contribute to PIC. So I approach any Palm-stuff that transpires stricly from a user's perspective, always keeping things in the perspective of MY $ at work on the purchasing end. That's not as a fanboy, but a concerned, unapologetic and loyal user of the Palm OS. If brutality is what it takes, then that's what I'll give, as long it's brutal honesty.

For the record, SV has a very keen insight to the mechanizations of the industry as a WHOLE (not so much with Palm Inc.) and, less obviously, a solid background in "old school" programming/coding/computing. TVoR has owned a slew of Palm OS products (mostly Clies) over the years and currently has a 700p. Since TVoR IS Carl Yankowski, he has a very good feel for the inner workings of Palm Inc as well as quite an axe to grind with Palm/PalmSource/Access. And Mike Cane remains....Mike Cane.

Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5-->TX-->Treo 700P

hkklife wrote:

I approach any Palm-stuff that transpires strictly from a user's perspective, always keeping things in the perspective of MY $ at work on the purchasing end.

It's a valuable perspective. And not just in the abstract since I often have to advise clients about purchasing decisions of their own. I own a pretty large stable of Palm and other devices, but when it comes to wireless handsets I can't own and activate every one on every network it's available. So I rely on you and others like you who have in-the-trenches experience with specific Palm devices to help me advise customers on purchases.

For the record, SV has a very keen insight to the mechanizations of the industry as a WHOLE (not so much with Palm Inc.)

I don't question the keenness. I do suspect you'd see it applied in very different ways and with different results if his financial interests tilted in another direction. I can think of no other participant on this forum who has zero "user interest" in Palm or other mobile technology products yet offers up such perfectly filtered barrage of negative information and commentary about Palm the company. Can you think of a single post after all these years that has conceded one iota of good news or good will toward Palm?

TVoR is just as bad in this regard, but let's not go there. All I'll say is that if you get right down to it his opinions are more about TVoR than they are about Palm. That's what keeps him coming back and it's quite different from SV's apparent motivation.

And Mike Cane remains....Mike Cane.

Truer words were never uttered. ;-) There's something to be said for the self-made "Internet Personality" and whatever that thing is you can sure say it about Mike Cane. :-)

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com/blog