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Comments on: How to Kill the (Pre) Buzz

Palm Pre DesignDespite riding a strong wave of post-CES media and user buzz alongside several Best of Show awards, over two months have now passed since the initial unveiling of Palm's new Pre smartphone and WebOS at CES. Yesterday's highly-anticipated Sprint + Palm Webinar left many users, myself included, quite disappointed with the utter lack of new information presented about the device and its accompanying OS. US News & World Report now chimes in with their take on the situation.

Written by David LaGesse, "How to Kill the Buzz: Say-Nothing Briefings for the Palm Pre" gives a quick summary of the rampant disappointment online at the lack of new information or feature clarification during yesterday's webcast. LaGesse offers his own take on the quickly souring sentiment surrounding Palm's "hail mary" effort and offers some choice excepts from several industry analysts and media figures, including speculation from Tom Krazit at CNet that "…without revealing any of the important details, Palm is leaving room for skeptics to wonder if the Pre actually is far from finished".

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Suspension Of Operations

mikecane @ 3/13/2009 4:42:44 PM # Q
Suspension Of Operations
http://prepoint.wordpress.com/

I don't feel that bad. Sammy started an iPhone blog after the announcement way back when and quickly ran out of steam due to lack of info. It happens. In my case, I want warm weather, dammit. I did the desk bit all of 2008!!

Hey, the Pre is still being worked on. I don't expect it til June, if not now August(!).

What will Apple unveil, I wonder. You just know Apple is doing that to push people like me back to the iPhone. But Apple must first *atone* for its eBook censorship:
http://mikecane2008.wordpress.com/2008/08/26/apple-forfeits-ebooks-by-banning-a-comic-book/

I'm glad to see other people following (ahem, no pun intended) my lead in using Twitter for intel. Good move.

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Tired of the hype yet?

Tuckermaclain @ 3/14/2009 9:38:53 AM # Q
Sprint is helping by announcing service plans. Palm's stock got a better rating so it actually achieved something. Personally I'm tired of the hype. Maybe they shouldn't have announced it until it was closer to release. Right now it's like the Chevy Volt. All over the papers but the technology hasn't been fleshed out and we're not going to see it soon. Sadly, this is more of Palm's moldy MO. Maybe the volt will come with a Pre docking station!
RE: Tired of the hype yet?
vetdoctor @ 3/14/2009 6:11:55 PM # M Q
Darned if you do, darned if you don't.
Palm couldn't go another 6 mo. w/out saying anything. They struck at a good moment. Unfortunately the phone is still not ready so they are holding tight.

I wasn't there but how long after the 1st iPhone was the SDK? Palm now has Apples "say nothing" culture. They will talk when they are ready. Technogeeks are sooo impatient.

RE: Tired of the hype yet?
mikecane @ 3/15/2009 8:21:52 AM # Q
It was about six months between the iPhone announcement and its sales date.

It was well over a year until the SDK was released. And then there was dev chaos reg over at the App Store - which continues anew as apparently renewals are backlogged.

I understand the impatience with the Pre. But we'd best wait. We want them to get it not just right - but, if possible, More Than Right.

DELIGHT THE CUSTOMER, Ed!!!

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Time to trot out the attack ads

rcartwright @ 3/15/2009 11:05:43 AM # Q
http://blog.wired.com/business/2009/03/sxsw-atts-spott.html

If I were Sprint and Palm, I would make some hay here. You might like the iPhone, but if the price is being chained to a crappy carrier, then its time to go with a Pre. This was an epic fail on the part of ATT as, any one with any sense of geek herding patterns would have know the system was going to get slammed in that area and could have brought in mobile units to scale up capacity.

Of course, having the Pre or at least a hard release date would make the ads more effective I suspect that they are being cagey about it in order to get some Treo Pros out the door, although anyone who has waited this fracking long for the next gen phone is not about to be derailed at the last minute by a WinMob offering. Then again, some people will pick up anythign shiny, so perhaps the marketeers have a twisted point.
"Many men stumble across the truth, but most manage to pick themselves up
and continue as if nothing had happened."
- Winston Churchill

RE: Time to trot out the attack ads
joad @ 3/15/2009 1:07:52 PM # Q
I doubt the delay is anything to do with their WinceMob fiascos. And Palm has essentially killed off the Garnet Goose, except for Centroz.

Anyone who has been ignoring/avoiding their WinceMob phones the past few years is obviously not interested in THAT operating system. WebOS needs to appeal to both the PalmOS fanatics as well as many iPhone lovers, as it's basically an improved iPhone with a few ideas stolen from the Treo. It has a lot of shortcomings compared to the Treo, so they need to make it shine the best they can, hence the long delay.
Palm "Preh": as in "eh, where's the microSD and Garnet emulator?"

RE: Time to trot out the attack ads
mikecane @ 3/15/2009 5:51:19 PM # Q
Apparently iPhone OS 3.0 will add Cut/Copy/Paste in a way that seems better than what others have tried to graft into jailbroken iPhones.

Also talk of "all the features of the Pre" being added too. Rip-off of Synergy? Card metaphor (a precedent there, sort of, is MultiFinder; but I don't think anyone here is old enough to know about *that*)? Who knows what else.

It'd really take a *lot* to get me not to get a Pre. A *big* LOT. And Apple must atone for the eBook debacle too.

RE: Time to trot out the attack ads
twrock @ 3/15/2009 7:10:51 PM # Q
mikecane wrote:
Apparently iPhone OS 3.0 will add Cut/Copy/Paste....

Wow, that's amazing! Apple figured out how to get rid of that huge security threat after all. ;-)

"twrock is infamous around these parts" (from my profile over at Brighthand due to my negative 62 rep points rating)
RE: Time to trot out the attack ads
freakout @ 3/15/2009 10:04:13 PM # Q
^^ Dare I say it? Giggle. ;-)

If Kevin Rose (via Gizmodo) is to be believed, it'll work by double-tapping/magnifying a word. Then you pinch the boundaries to make your selection, after which you get a choice of cut/copy/paste.

http://i.gizmodo.com/5170262/kevin-rose-dishes-iphone-30-rumors-cut-and-paste-features-equal-palm-pre

Sounds reasonable, although not especially better/worse than the usual hold-and-drag method. And how does it work for selecting more than one line of text?

They also say...

...the 3.0 update will have enough new features and additions to bring it up to the Palm Pre levels. Whatever Palm Pre has shown us so far, apparently, the iPhone will have too when 3.0 becomes official.

Intriguing... but I doubt it. If Apple add a Synergy-esque cloud sync, MMS, A2DP, integrated messaging and a Universal Search, I'll eat my hat. If they go one better and introduce video recording? I'll eat the rabbit in there as well.

RE: Time to trot out the attack ads
SeldomVisitor @ 3/16/2009 4:27:08 AM # Q
While folks are gushing about the iPhone/Pre comparison(s), it should be remembered that no Apple person said anything (overtly) and the track record of the person saying this stuff is less than stellar.

The 17th is a hiccup away - we'll find out what's coming then.

RE: Time to trot out the attack ads
jca666us @ 3/16/2009 4:27:45 AM # Q
Freako,

implementation questions aside, this might give palm a window of a month or so - depending on when Pre is released from the labs.

Amazing that it's the middle of march and Palm still doesn't have a release date.

It would be absolutely ironic if the new iphone and os 3.0 beats Pre to market.

It's looking more and more like being able to multitask those four webapps on the pre won't be much of an advantage after all.


RE: Time to trot out the attack ads
twrock @ 3/16/2009 5:11:09 AM # Q
jca666us wrote:
It would be absolutely ironic if the new iphone and os 3.0 beats Pre to market.

To borrow someone else's line, "Nah, that's literally uninteresting."

Seriously though, I don't see the irony in one product being released before or after another. I'm sure either Nokia or LG or HTC or someone will release some smartphone either before or after either the Pre or the iPhone 3.0, but what difference does that make? If the iPhone 3.0 or the Pre has got what you need when it's released, buy it. If it doesn't, what difference does it make when that release happens?

There is always something better coming along soon.


"twrock is infamous around these parts" (from my profile over at Brighthand due to my negative 62 rep points rating)

RE: Time to trot out the attack ads
twrock @ 3/16/2009 5:22:45 AM # Q
Hey, if you want ironic, scroll up to see Mike Cane's posts under this article:
http://www.palminfocenter.com/comments/9708/#150605
http://www.palminfocenter.com/comments/9708/#150627
I'm literally shocked by the calmness of those posts. Everyone needs to take a page from Mike's book here and just relax. The Pre will show when it shows.

"twrock is infamous around these parts" (from my profile over at Brighthand due to my negative 62 rep points rating)
RE: Time to trot out the attack ads
mikecane @ 3/16/2009 5:56:26 AM # Q
>>>If Kevin Rose (via Gizmodo) is to be believed, it'll work by double-tapping/magnifying a word. Then you pinch the boundaries to make your selection, after which you get a choice of cut/copy/paste.

No, that's now how I understood it at all.

Double-tap brings up a magnifier, yes. But it also brings up two *independent* - my term here - brackets. Put one bracket at start of selection, drag second bracket to where the endpoint should be. This means you can drag down as far as you want and grab as much as you want. It's brilliant.

OTOH, I'd like to see triple-tap for paragraph selecting. Don't know if this scheme will permit that,

If I'm understanding it correctly, Apple has really figured it out better than every other implementation I've seen.

RE: Time to trot out the attack ads
mikecane @ 3/16/2009 5:59:59 AM # Q
>>>I'm literally shocked by the calmness of those posts.

What's to be shocked about? Palm has clearly shown a revolutionary - for them and the entire damned cell industry - product and they need to nail it flawlessly. This thing needs to be as frikkin bug-free as humanly possible. That takes time. So although I'm still hoping like mad for a June release, I'm already thinking not until August. Which would really be frustrating as hell.

What Palm absolutely *cannot* afford to do is stick to a date like Nokia did with the 770 and push it out as crap and hope they can spew out stabilization updates ASAP. That is instant death.

RE: Time to trot out the attack ads
abosco @ 3/16/2009 10:08:59 AM # Q
I don't see Apple taking one year to work on OS 3.0, and all they come up with is copy/paste as the focal point. I see multitasking, and I see lots of it. I also see Palm stock going down tomorrow.

http://tinyurl.com/d365mp

During the Worldwide Developer's Conference in June 2008, Apple announced they would be bringing something called, Push notification system. This basically gives an app the option of receiving notices, and messages even if the app isn't active. Steve Jobs stated that the service would be arriving by September 2008. Of course that update rolled by, and the Push notification was no where to be seen.

There has been quite a bit of speculation as to the reason for delaying the system. Many believe that Apple is trying to implement a better system, one in which the user can decide which apps can run in the background over others. The really spicy rumor is that Apple is just waiting until the next generation iPhone, before bringing background processes.

That was last year! To me, it is plain obvious that they removed the Sept 2008 deadline and began to incorporate a full multitasking system in 3.0. If they didn't, the 3.0 firmware will be a waste of time.
-Bosco
m105 -> NX70v -> NX80v -> iPhone -> iPhone 3G

RE: Time to trot out the attack ads
SeldomVisitor @ 3/16/2009 10:14:10 AM # Q
> ...I also see Palm stock going down tomorrow...

Ya think?

RE: Time to trot out the attack ads
freakout @ 3/16/2009 2:49:05 PM # Q
cane:
Put one bracket at start of selection, drag second bracket to where the endpoint should be.

That does sound more logical. Wonder if it'll be iron-clad patented like pinch-zooming. ;)

bosco:
Many believe that Apple is trying to implement a better system, one in which the user can decide which apps can run in the background over others.

Sounds good. But a little too close to WinMob's task manager for comfort.
Tim
I apologise for any and all emoticons that appear in my posts. You may shoot them on sight.
Treo 270 -> Treo 650 -> Treo 680 -> Centro

RE: Time to trot out the attack ads
mikecane @ 3/16/2009 3:53:24 PM # Q
Well, tomorrow is the Big Day for what has become a Very Dull Apple without Steve (get well, dammit, Do Not Die - this is an Order!).

It'll be interesting to see what they pimp.

RE: Time to trot out the attack ads
jca666us @ 3/16/2009 4:26:00 PM # Q
>Seriously though, I don't see the irony in one product being released
>before or after another.

It's ironic because Palm has been pimping the Pre as "the revolution" in mobile computing...they did this by initially mis-marketing the Pre as an iphone killer.

Still, after nearly three months, the revolution has yet to be released and details are sparse.

It's looking likely that the actual iphone killer will be coming from Apple, while it's anyone's guess where Palm will end up.


RE: Time to trot out the attack ads
jca666us @ 3/16/2009 4:27:23 PM # Q
>That does sound more logical. Wonder if it'll be iron-clad patented like
>pinch-zooming. ;)

If it's not Freak, we can all be reasonably certain that Palm will try to rip them off.

RE: Time to trot out the attack ads
jca666us @ 3/16/2009 6:06:08 PM # Q
>I don't see Apple taking one year to work on OS 3.0, and all they come up
>with is copy/paste as the focal point. I see multitasking, and I see lots of it.

I think Apple will try and tie C&P in with multitasking to say that 3.0 has greater support for professional class applications.

On the basis of multitasking alone, I would expect Apple will demo a mobile Office-type suite tomorrow and show OS 3.0 to have several enhancements and refinements over 2.0 (C&P being one of them).

>I also see Palm stock going down tomorrow.

If the iphone 3.0 OS has a greater capacity for multitasking then the Pre's four multitasked webapps, then I'd agree.

It's frustrating that after nearly three months, the Pre is unreleased and many details are still vague. Still no native apps, and no mention of an app store.

Palm needs to push this out soon, or no one will care.

After OS 3.0 is demoed tomorrow, all eyes will be on Palm.

RE: Time to trot out the attack ads
twrock @ 3/16/2009 6:08:23 PM # Q
jca666us wrote:
It's looking likely that the actual iphone killer will be coming from Apple, while it's anyone's guess where Palm will end up.

So again, let me point out that it seems speculation about the Pre can not be positive, but speculation about the iPhone can. How about having the same standard for both products? How come is it that the iPhone can be "the iPhone killer", but the Pre can't?

BTW, if the iPhone 3.0 isn't "the iPhone killer", what's Apple doing releasing it? By definition, the next version should best the current one. And I know that doesn't hold true for all products, [cough] Windows [/cough]. The whole notion of a "XXX killer" is nothing more than a hype game anyway.

Here's my personal feeling about the iPhone. When the iPhone performs all of the functionality of my Palm TX, I'll seriously look at purchasing it (well, except I'm not interested in having to sign some ridiculous service contract, but that's another issue altogether). So far the iPhone still won't do for me what my TX does, so I'm not interested. And if the Pre won't do for me what my TX does, I won't be interested in it either. This silly idea that any one product is better than all the others is just plain naive. It's only better for you if it is the one that best meets your needs.

So up to this point, the iPhone isn't even a "Palm TX killer" from my perspective. Look there, the iPhone isn't even as good as a product released way back in 2005! ;-)


"twrock is infamous around these parts" (from my profile over at Brighthand due to my negative 62 rep points rating)

RE: Time to trot out the attack ads
abosco @ 3/16/2009 6:55:52 PM # Q
twrock wrote:
So again, let me point out that it seems speculation about the Pre can not be positive, but speculation about the iPhone can. How about having the same standard for both products? How come is it that the iPhone can be "the iPhone killer", but the Pre can't?

Apple has a recent track record of delivering good products that people want. Palm, unfortunately, does not. Therefore, it is easy to be optimistic and excited about Apple's products, yet pessimistic and demeaning about Palm's products.

Look at the comments on PIC vs MacRumors. There is a drastic difference in tone.
-Bosco
m105 -> NX70v -> NX80v -> iPhone -> iPhone 3G

RE: Time to trot out the attack ads
jca666us @ 3/16/2009 7:42:22 PM # Q
>So again, let me point out that it seems speculation about the Pre can
>not be positive, but speculation about the iPhone can.

Because the iphone has a proven track record. Palm did have a proven track record - seven years ago. The intervening years have seen stagnant development, and a poor level of customer support and service.

It's easy to be optimistic about the iphone - Apple has delivered a quality product and supported it with *timely* firmware updates.

When was the last time Palm released a firmware update for a device that was a year and a half old?

I recall purchasing my Palm Tungsten and waiting for Cobalt to be released for it. How many others have been burned by Palm?

The Pre may well be the dawn of a new day for Palm, but one product release won't do it. There are so many potential stumbling blocks, that's it's difficult to embrace the Pre with the optimism one looks at the iphone with.

>How about having the same standard for both products? How come is it
>that the iPhone can be "the iPhone killer", but the Pre can't?

Because Palm should have announced the Pre within a month of releasing it. At this point if iphone OS 3.0 has a fraction of what the Pre is offering, it will dampen enthusiasm for the Pre.

Dragging out the initial release of the iphone worked for Apple - because there was no real competition. Pre is being released into a much more competitive market and Palm needs to be more responsive.

Say what you will about Apple, but they have steadily increased functionality and improved stability - from os 1.0 to os 2.2

Who knows when we'll see any firmware updates for the Pre? Based on past history, rarely or never. It is this past history and these preconceived notions regarding Palm, that Palm needs to work very hard to overcome.

>BTW, if the iPhone 3.0 isn't "the iPhone killer", what's Apple doing
>releasing it? By definition, the next version should best the current one.

Well, considering 3.0 is software only (until revised hardware is released), why wouldn't apple release it?

Improved functionality and new features will make it surpass previous os releases. It might be a pre killer, but we won't know until the Pre is actually released.

>And I know that doesn't hold true for all products, [cough] Windows
>[/cough]. The whole notion of a "XXX killer" is nothing more than a hype
>game anyway.

Agreed, but it was Palm that is marketing the Pre as an iphone killer - which if the Pre isn't, will surely bite them in their corporate ass.

>So up to this point, the iPhone isn't even a "Palm TX killer" from my
>perspective. Look there, the iPhone isn't even as good as a product
>released way back in 2005! ;-)

That may be true for you, but there are things the iphone does that trounce most Palm devices IMHO - the iphone isn't perfect, but the company developing it is working awfully hard to improve it.

Unfortunately, I can't say the same about Palm based on their track record; can you?

RE: Time to trot out the attack ads
twrock @ 3/16/2009 7:57:08 PM # Q
Sure, no problem. I know the history as well as anyone. But no one yet knows about this product and this OS. I just find it interesting that certain people insist in dismissing it out of hand when they truly have no idea. Hey, how many people on this website even went so far as to predict Palm had no new OS and wouldn't have one and were just playing games trying to make the company attractive for aqusition and a whole lot of other speculative BS that they didn't have a clue about? Funny how we don't often see those same people posting something like, "Dang, I was way wrong about that. Seems Palm was doing something I didn't know about. Seems I'm not as brilliant as I thought."

Palm also has a history of innovation and great products. Sure, much of the more recent history is not as noteworthy, but even in recent history there have been good products released. And dare I say it, some of those products have yet to be surpassed. My own criticism of Palm often is because I believe they should be able to best their own previous efforts (a Palm killer, if you will), and they don't. But that doesn't necessarily mean that I think anyone else has either.

But around here, the negativity is amazing. And I have never understood the weird phenomenon of people who have supposedly moved on the a better product who still think they need to hang around a Palm oriented website and tell us all how much better their choice is (or even don't use and won't ever use a Palm product; that's even stranger). What's the obsession? Maybe there's some weird psychological need to keep convincing themselves they were right, some kind of insecurity, not really all that sure they made the right choice. If so, dude, get over it already. It's just a phone.

"twrock is infamous around these parts" (from my profile over at Brighthand due to my negative 62 rep points rating)

RE: Time to trot out the attack ads
twrock @ 3/16/2009 8:00:36 PM # Q
Oops, my reply above was to abosco, not jca666us. Looks like I started to reply before I saw that someone else had already written something.

"twrock is infamous around these parts" (from my profile over at Brighthand due to my negative 62 rep points rating)
RE: Time to trot out the attack ads
twrock @ 3/16/2009 8:11:47 PM # Q
jca666us wrote:
Unfortunately, I can't say the same about Palm based on their track record; can you?

You truly are ignoring what is happening right in front of your eyes. I know the history. I have lived through it. I'm ignoring neither the track record nor what I am seeing happening right now.

Will Palm be "successful" with this effort? I don't know, but neither do you. All of this is just speculation. Will you be willing to come back and eat a little crow if it turns out that Palm is "successful"?



"twrock is infamous around these parts" (from my profile over at Brighthand due to my negative 62 rep points rating)

RE: Time to trot out the attack ads
jca666us @ 3/16/2009 8:55:02 PM # Q
>You truly are ignoring what is happening right in front of your eyes. I know
>the history. I have lived through it. I'm ignoring neither the track record nor
>what I am seeing happening right now.

I'm not ignoring it, I'm skeptical that it will be enough to save the company.

Palm never had an "A" game, and they are in serious need of one now.

>Will Palm be "successful" with this effort? I don't know, but neither do you.

Of course, but my idle speculation is just as valid as yours.

>All of this is just speculation. Will you be willing to come back and eat a
>little crow if it turns out that Palm is "successful"?

I would like Palm to be successful - and I would be more than willing to admit I was wrong - if in fact I am.

I'd buy a Pre if I thought it was the best device on the market. However, in my opinion, it will take more than a single *successful* product release - as I've been burned more than enough by Palm.

Here's what I consider a success for Palm (in order of precedence):

1. A successful launch of the Pre (by June) - by successful, no obvious hardware or software glitches that get past QA.

2. Timely firmware updates - I'd expect one or two within the first six months of release.

3. The release of an app store (within the first six months of release).

4. Some sort of SDK for compiled apps (for that class of applications that can make use of it).

5. Some signs of financial health for Palm - they'll probably never have 20 billion in the bank, however I'd like to have some confidence that Palm will be around two years from now when I decide to upgrade my Pre.

RE: Time to trot out the attack ads
SeldomVisitor @ 3/17/2009 3:58:20 AM # Q
> ...If the iphone 3.0 OS has a greater capacity for multitasking then the
> Pre's four multitasked webapps...

If Apple cares about Palm - and I haven't seen any hard evidence that they do, BTW - then I would expect Apple to point out the difference between a "web app" and an "app...pointedly.

RE: Time to trot out the attack ads
twrock @ 3/17/2009 6:10:35 AM # Q
jca666us wrote:
Here's what I consider a success for Palm (in order of precedence): ....

That looks suspiciously like you are simply demanding Palm match the iPhone step for step or you will say they aren't successful. So if Apple had done it differently, would you have a different measure for success?

"twrock is infamous around these parts" (from my profile over at Brighthand due to my negative 62 rep points rating)
RE: Time to trot out the attack ads
jca666us @ 3/17/2009 6:41:40 AM # M Q
twrock - I am not looking at anything other than what it will take for palm to be successful.

RE: Time to trot out the attack ads
mikecane @ 3/17/2009 8:14:11 AM # Q
>>>they did this by initially mis-marketing the Pre as an iphone killer.

Where? When?

Colligan said he had a "breakthrough level of innovation" and "game-changing hardware."

The Pre lived up to both of those in its intro (note I said INTRO).

I know how eager everyone is to trot out Colligan's Foot In Mouth line about his resistance to lowballing the price ("Why would we do that when we have the better phone?"), but that's COLLIGAN shooting himself in the head yet again, not PALM.

Anyway, in about 5 hours or so from the time I'm typing this, all will be revealed by Apple. I'm not excited, but I am curious.

RE: Time to trot out the attack ads
SeldomVisitor @ 3/17/2009 8:39:53 AM # Q
> ...Anyway, in about 5 hours or so from the time I'm typing this, all will be
> revealed by Apple...

I think you're gonna be late to the party.

RE: Time to trot out the attack ads
hkklife @ 3/17/2009 9:11:51 AM # Q
I think a lot of the Apple faithful are going to be mildly disappointed in the 3.0 update. Now, it may contain one or several Pre-beating features (likely push & cut/paste & maybe app store improvements or MAYBE MMS) . But I doubt Apple's codemonkeys have been able to come up with mult-tasking, video capture etc. since CES in January, especially if these werent' originally planned for 3.0

I think Apple is doing nothing more than playing up the 3.0 launch to try and steal some of Palm's thunder and to also capitalize on the utter lack of concrete Pre info (no actual price, release date, or anything new revealed since CES).

I see the 3.0 preview today as Apple's initial strike. They'll probably then release a 32gb iPhone 3G sometime around when 3.0 actually pre-installed on shipping devices but I doubt we'll see anything in the way of new formfactor or hardware improvements this June/July from Apple (unlike last year). And I still do expect a dumbed-down (2 or 4 gig, no wi-fi and/or no GPS, smaller screen) <$99 iPhone Nano this fall from Apple for the back-to-school season.

P.S. I am no way championing Apple over Palm or Palm over Apple. Both companies have nice devices with certain appealing specs but in many ways both lack the utter functionality, productivity and expandability available in a free Centro or even in an ancient Treo 600/650. Palm started off on the right track improving on some of the iPhone's hardware limitations with the Pre (removable battery, keyboard) but then mitigated those additions with the removal of the microSD slot. Furthermore, they're aping Apple by intentionally dumbing down their devices to appeal to soccer moms & teenagers by stripping out functionality available on older POS devices (video recording, voice memo, native apps) & arrogantly pushing users to the Cloud (not to mention Sprint).

As smartphones from all manufacturers become increasingly media savvy they are apparently becoming more dumbed-down and less capable for basic organization, prouctivity & PIM functions. I'd better go grab a spare Centro while I can still get one cheap!
Pilot 1000->Pilot 5000->PalmPilot Pro->IIIe->Vx->m505->T|T->T|T2->T|C->T|T3->T|T5->Zodiac 2->TX->Verizon Treo 700P->Verizon Treo 755p->?

RE: Time to trot out the attack ads
freakout @ 3/17/2009 2:36:47 PM # Q
jca666us to twrock:
Of course, but my idle speculation is just as valid as yours.

No, it isn't. Because you are an idiot. (How's that Apple-Palm lawsuit going?)

RE: Time to trot out the attack ads
jca666us @ 3/17/2009 3:34:03 PM # Q
Freak, why am i an idiot; because i don't agree with the nonsense you spew?

Did you check out iphone os 3.0 - seems to put a pretty serious crimp on the "revolutionary" features of the Pre.

Palm needs to get cracking!

RE: Time to trot out the attack ads
SeldomVisitor @ 3/17/2009 3:41:29 PM # Q
Palm needs to release an SDK or they're gonna have a device with a calendar, calculator, and browser and nothing else...

[how long do folks think it's gonna take to write, test, debug, and get certified an application for the Pre? It's mid-March. June 30th? Uh huh...]

RE: Time to trot out the attack ads
mikecane @ 3/17/2009 4:08:06 PM # Q
Yeah, even though I had the time wrong, I did make the live coverage on time.

There is nothing there in iPhone OS 3.0 to deter me from buying a Pre.

RE: Time to trot out the attack ads
hkklife @ 3/17/2009 4:43:59 PM # Q
There's nothing in the Pre to convince me to buy a Pre.

There's nothing in the iPhone 3.0 to convice me to buy an iPhone.

Next!


SV;

Don't forget a camera app and a media player and email + SMS + contacts apps! This situation is unfortunately starting to look like a repeat performance of the OS5/T|T launch in 2002 (nothing native/optimized for the OS) ...EXCEPT this time around there are no legacy OS4 apps to run and many more fierce competitors. Whoops!
Pilot 1000->Pilot 5000->PalmPilot Pro->IIIe->Vx->m505->T|T->T|T2->T|C->T|T3->T|T5->Zodiac 2->TX->Verizon Treo 700P->Verizon Treo 755p->?

RE: Time to trot out the attack ads
abosco @ 3/17/2009 4:58:54 PM # Q
There is nothing there in iPhone OS 3.0 to deter me from buying a Pre.

For the record, I STILL don't understand what draws you to the Pre's software so much more than the iPhone. The iPhone OS 3.0 finally brings out all of the features that should have been there in the last two iterations. But honestly, I think they finally got it right. MMS, copy/paste, push background notifications, global search, and they opened up the hardware. That's key. Say hello to Bluetooth keyboards on Docs2Go (I know I will). AND all of these features are available on the current iPhone 3G upon release. The beta has already been seeded to developers, which means turn-by-turn directions and peripherals will be available by the time it's launched. Flash and tethering are also on the way.

Couple this with the unprecedented software support, and you have a platform that will be hard to match in the next few years. Apple might be the Nokia of the 2010's. Meanwhile, Palm is going into the fight with a keyboard and some nice Facebook integration. I really doubt that's enough.

-Bosco
m105 -> NX70v -> NX80v -> iPhone -> iPhone 3G

RE: Time to trot out the attack ads
jca666us @ 3/17/2009 7:04:08 PM # M Q
bosco, you forgot those four multitasking webapps - those will be key! :)

3.0 looks good!

RE: Time to trot out the attack ads
freakout @ 3/17/2009 9:28:23 PM # Q
Palm is going into the fight with a keyboard

Still the number one issue for me... but you're right otherwise. Except for the Nokia thing - Apple ain't gonna get there without a lot more variety in their hardware. You can get a Nokia in pretty much any shape and size you want, for any price.

I still wouldn't buy an iPhone - I ain't buying anything without a keyboard that forces me to sync with iTunes (gag) - but I'll stop laughing at it now.

RE: Time to trot out the attack ads
twrock @ 3/17/2009 9:53:32 PM # Q
Do I assume correctly that the iPod Touch will run the 3.0 OS (sans the phone stuff)? I'm still keeping one eye on that product.

"twrock is infamous around these parts" (from my profile over at Brighthand due to my negative 62 rep points rating)
RE: Time to trot out the attack ads
2klbs @ 3/18/2009 12:06:14 AM # M Q
yes, but it will cost you $9.99
RE: Time to trot out the attack ads
SeldomVisitor @ 3/18/2009 3:52:55 AM # Q
> Do I assume correctly that the iPod Touch will run the 3.0 OS (sans the
> phone stuff)? I'm still keeping one eye on that product.

Apparently so, and due to the attach-yer-own-hardware API, can make phone calls via bluetooth with your bluetooth-compatible dumbphone?

[I know zilch about the iPod Touch...but if it has bluetooth, or a dongle that does bluetooth...]

RE: Time to trot out the attack ads
hkklife @ 3/18/2009 11:50:27 AM # Q
Ron, I'm following your line of thought exactly. Since there's no Pre OR iPhone in my immediate future, I am thinking that a 3.0 iPod Touch might make a fun little PDA/web browser/e-book reader to keep around the house.

Even 32GB is far too little (and far too $) for my entire music collection and I still detest iTunes but the 3.0 updates definitely make it more appealing at least as a halfway decent replacement for a Garnet device. I may buy one once they are available with 3.0 pre-loaded and play with it for a bit and sell it or let the spouse have it if I don't like it.
Pilot 1000->Pilot 5000->PalmPilot Pro->IIIe->Vx->m505->T|T->T|T2->T|C->T|T3->T|T5->Zodiac 2->TX->Verizon Treo 700P->Verizon Treo 755p->?

RE: Time to trot out the attack ads
twrock @ 3/18/2009 5:29:08 PM # Q
Yes, and I'm looking at it and other devices in preparation for the inevitable day my TX dies. (Actually, it has died a few times already but I keep resurrecting it because nothing else will work.) Every time I start thinking that maybe the iPod Touch (or even the iPhone) could replace my TX right now, I slap myself for being so silly. All I have to do is sit down and list "what I need in a handheld", and it is obvious that the "ancient" TX is still the best device for me. It seems crazy that an almost four year old device is still the best for what I need, but even with all the supposed "advances" in competing products, no one has put it together in a way that's more useful for me.

I have more hope for some Android device,...eventually. But it's got a way to go. But at least with a truly open system I have hope that it will get there some day. I don't have that same hope for the "locked-down" systems.

So if my TX dies tomorrow, I'm buying another TX. It's that simple. At least I know that it will meet my current needs, no "promises" needed.

"twrock is infamous around these parts" (from my profile over at Brighthand due to my negative 62 rep points rating)

RE: Time to trot out the attack ads
abosco @ 3/18/2009 7:51:33 PM # Q
It seems crazy that an almost four year old device is still the best for what I need, but even with all the supposed "advances" in competing products, no one has put it together in a way that's more useful for me.

The problem is that you're in the minority. I'm sure there are still a few guys holed up somewhere using a Newton daily. Or Psion.

Where is Gekko? He usually yells at you for comments like these.

-Bosco
m105 -> NX70v -> NX80v -> iPhone -> iPhone 3G

RE: Time to trot out the attack ads
2klbs @ 3/18/2009 8:06:04 PM # Q
SeldomVisitor wrote:
> Do I assume correctly that the iPod Touch will run the 3.0 OS (sans the
> phone stuff)? I'm still keeping one eye on that product.

Apparently so, and due to the attach-yer-own-hardware API, can make phone calls via bluetooth with your bluetooth-compatible dumbphone?

[I know zilch about the iPod Touch...but if it has bluetooth, or a dongle that does bluetooth...]

'don't know if anyone is still reading this thread but:

There have been a number of attempts at making the Touch a working VOIP solution. So far there have been a few semi-professional mods that allow mic-in/audio out combos, some not bad looking for fit and finish. The existence of a Bluetooth chip and radio have been noted since September on 2nd generation Touch models and Iphones, and indeed the 3.0 release has been confirmed to have unlocked functionality.

'too soon to say if BT will stand alone and play nicely with VOIP, or if some enterprising set of modders will hack a solution with dock plug in hardware, but it's a pretty cool enhancement. BT was rolled to iPhone mostly for stereo headset, voice dial (not confirmed) P2P gaming and file transfer. But as the latest SDK hits developers the flavors of vanilla that seem to become the potential functionality comparisons of the Pre and Iphone/Touch get muddled.

Here's a link-shades of my memory backup on my Palm IIIe:
http://www.chargeconverter.com/shop/connector.htm?touchmic.htm

RE: Time to trot out the attack ads
twrock @ 3/19/2009 1:49:34 AM # Q
abosco wrote:
Where is Gekko? He usually yells at you for comments like these.

Gekko's an idiot. In his mind his choices should be universal; how could anyone not agree? But how can you take anyone who thinks the Centro is the perfect device seriously?

Besides, I'm not saying that I have to have a PDA instead of a smartphone, and that is Gekko's no. 1 rant. I'd be happy to have "one device" instead of two, just as long as that one device delivers the best of both instead of some half-baked hybrid.



"twrock is infamous around these parts" (from my profile over at Brighthand due to my negative 62 rep points rating)

RE: Time to trot out the attack ads
mikecane @ 3/19/2009 6:29:31 AM # Q
>>>Say hello to Bluetooth keyboards on Docs2Go

Where are you getting this fantasy from? Apple was asked about Bluetooth keyboards and was mum.

The Pre will probably have that capability first.

RE: Time to trot out the attack ads
rcartwright @ 3/19/2009 7:58:19 AM # Q
Well the iPhone 3.0 announcment was a bit underwhelming, Moving on. I agree that Palm needs to get the SDK out the door but I suspect that Palm already has released the SDK to some devs. Palm may, rightly or wrongly, have taken the decision to roll out a limited number of apps that are bug free and foolproof at the Pre launch rather than coming out of the gate with a lot of potential crashware and crapware that could generate some bad buzz and customer disatisfaction.
"Many men stumble across the truth, but most manage to pick themselves up
and continue as if nothing had happened."
- Winston Churchill
RE: Time to trot out the attack ads
SeldomVisitor @ 3/19/2009 8:03:39 AM # Q
No, Palm realizes they are not set up to handle certification of more than a couple widgets at a time.

And aren't ready to tell anyone "publicly" about their web services for those applications that'll be using web servers instead of standalone.

Plus, their SDK undoubtedly is as beta as the Pre is right now.

RE: Time to trot out the attack ads
twrock @ 3/19/2009 8:08:54 AM # Q
rcartwright wrote:
Well the iPhone 3.0 announcment was a bit underwhelming, Moving on. ....

Not so fast, buddy.

Speaking of "attack ads", I thought this article was in classic Register fashion:
Apple plays catch-up with new iPhone features
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/03/18/iphone_version_3/
(And it might even rile up a few iPhone fanboys as well.)

"twrock is infamous around these parts" (from my profile over at Brighthand due to my negative 62 rep points rating)

RE: Time to trot out the attack ads
hkklife @ 3/19/2009 8:19:04 AM # Q
Mike, Woot's got an EEE 900 Linux (black or white, 4GB SSD, Dothan-based) on sale today for $180 + $5 s/h. You gonna pick one up to tide you over until the Pre arrives?

In all seriousness, with ultra-cheap and highly-capable netbooks flooding the market, I can forsee *some* former smartphone users making do with a feature-laden dumbphone & a netbook.

I've long stated that the smartphone is not a business necessity for the vast majority of users (just like all of those people that carried Palm V's as status symbols a decade ago and used it merely as a glorified calculator) and these trying economic times are likely going to prove the point. And the iPod Touch is about to become a lot more functional with OS 3.0, so a highly functional "non smartphone" with wi-fi(since we cannot call it a PDA) might be good enough for some folks who have a little bit of disposable income but are trying to cut down on the monthly charges.

I still maintain that my idea for Palm to cozy up with Cricket or Virgin or one of those pre-paid MVNO a few years ago with a cheap Peek + Centro-style POS device would've been brilliant. $100 upfront cost, unlimited web & email via EDGE, $20 a month, no tethering, no contract, no voice functionality, decent multimedia capability, Touchscreen, thousands of 3rd party apps.

Heck, the vast numbers of BB users that I know don't even do anything other than SMS & talking on their devices. Funny that most of the people I've known to carry a BB, POS Treo or iPhone are rather non-technical, don't do PIM stuff and don't install apps to their devices. But the handful I know who have a Symbian or WinMob device definitely do more than scratch the surface of their devices' potential.

P.S. rcartwright;
Right on. I think Palm has their "dream team" (think of the partners in Pre crime articles from Tim & the big page o' names unveiled at CES) that they are working very closely with to get some nice stuff ready for the Pre launch. Otherwise, wait about 3-5 months before you start seeing an susbstantial amounts of 3rd party apps & web integration.
Pilot 1000->Pilot 5000->PalmPilot Pro->IIIe->Vx->m505->T|T->T|T2->T|C->T|T3->T|T5->Zodiac 2->TX->Verizon Treo 700P->Verizon Treo 755p->?

RE: Time to trot out the attack ads
rcartwright @ 3/19/2009 8:32:52 AM # Q
hklife:

Your post about netbooks has rubbed salt into the wound I recently suffered with the demise of my TX. I have been limping along with my 680 because I just can't justify dropping over two Benjamins with the Pre so close to launch. Further, I find a netbook as an alluring MID, especally as you can buy one for @$300. I really hope the Pre gets out there ASAP
"Many men stumble across the truth, but most manage to pick themselves up
and continue as if nothing had happened."
- Winston Churchill

RE: Time to trot out the attack ads
2klbs @ 3/19/2009 8:33:07 AM # Q
mikecane wrote:
>>>Say hello to Bluetooth keyboards on Docs2Go

Where are you getting this fantasy from? Apple was asked about Bluetooth keyboards and was mum.

The Pre will probably have that capability first.

Mr Cane: BT Keyboards are a potential reality. However, implementation can't be common on the device, but likely app-by-app. It's all theory until you get someone to actually develop an application, then hardware, but it's about as functional as the old keyboard-specific .prc files and drivers when we were using the Palm handhelds. Remember too, that all this is 3.0 jabber refers to a beta until rolled out officially in June or July.
End of Contract with Sprint- to become a "Pre-vert" or go Android?

RE: Time to trot out the attack ads
SeldomVisitor @ 3/19/2009 9:03:47 AM # Q
> ...(And it might even rile up a few iPhone fanboys as well.)

Though I am not an iPhone fanboy, it riles me to see (1) the posting of "articles" that say things like "Apple saw what the Pre had in January and performed programming magic to duplicate most of it in only two months!" and (2) the Me-Too Media-like repeat of that crap far and wide by those not willing to stop and think a moment.

RE: Time to trot out the attack ads
abosco @ 3/19/2009 9:04:33 AM # Q
mikecane wrote:
Where are you getting this fantasy from? Apple was asked about Bluetooth keyboards and was mum.

The general consensus is that third-party manufacturers will have access to the Bluetooth and serial connections. However, BT keyboards will have to be supported on an app-by-app basis, as mentioned before.

I think you guys are missing the significance of the 3.0 update. Previously, the reasons why people liked the Pre more than the iPhone was because it wasn't totally locked down, it had a keyboard, and it has "web" integration. Since the 3.0 update will remove all of the annoying little locked-out features of the iPhone, that is no longer an issue. So the reason why someone would choose to buy a Pre over an iPhone is its hardware keyboard or web integration. While that might be a big enough issue for guys like Tim, the iPhone is a more attractive offering.

And then there's software support. 30 million iPhones/Touches? And you're claiming the "killer app" is coming out on the Pre? Get real.

-Bosco
m105 -> NX70v -> NX80v -> iPhone -> iPhone 3G

RE: Time to trot out the attack ads
SeldomVisitor @ 3/19/2009 9:17:24 AM # Q
I'm confused - the Pre is as locked down, if not more, than the iPhone.

No uncertified applications (though you can install them from anywhere).

No binary applications except under VERY rigid control.

Web servers required for anything that does serious work. "Phart" widgets are fine, though.

RE: Time to trot out the attack ads
abosco @ 3/19/2009 9:45:09 AM # Q
I was talking mostly about the annoying, swiss-cheese missing features in the iPhone, like no copy/paste or MMS. As stupid as it sounds, not being able to receive a picture message has deterred people. And for a lot of people, this was a representation of Apple locking down their devices for features only they say you need.

Also, this update will keep existing users very happy. Not only can they upgrade, but they're upgrading to features they've been asking for.

-Bosco
m105 -> NX70v -> NX80v -> iPhone -> iPhone 3G

RE: Time to trot out the attack ads
2klbs @ 3/19/2009 10:33:05 AM # Q
abosco wrote:
So the reason why someone would choose to buy a Pre over an iPhone is its hardware keyboard or web integration. While that might be a big enough issue for guys like Tim, the iPhone is a more attractive offering.

And then there's software support. 30 million iPhones/Touches?

Bosco, you hit the nail on the head for "prosumer" and semi technical users:

A virtual keyboard, no matter what the iteration, is just not a viable option for 99% of the users out there that need to write professional emails to clients or co-workers on while on the road, let alone users that use their device to do serious text entry for blogging, quick doc and spreadsheet edits, etc. I know there are some exceptions to the rule, but by and large this is true. 'likely a fundamental reason BB still hits the adoption rates it does despite it's limited functionality in other areas.

After personal experience over the past months repeatedly unbricking my wife's touch on both our PC and Mac, I can personally say the implementation of iTunes synchronization is a nightmare. The hours I've spent tinkering with USB ports, rolling back firmware releases, then forward again, klutzing around with profiles buried deep within hidden folders, and opaque error messages are nothing short of excruciating. It reminds me of the first days of ActiveSync.

Although I still like the old-fashioned consistency of syncing to my desktop (and simplicity of reloading a new warranty replacement Treo for the 5th time in 2 years), in reality the properly integrated use of the Cloud will likely show me to be stuck in the past, and make the iTunes-inspired nightmare an afterthought for "real" PIM on all devices. Despite my personal discomfort having all my data out of my ultimate control, the Cloud will make most users OS-agnostic.

In the end, my wife loves her 2nd generation Touch so much she carries it around but uses her BB for communication and some PIM management. I have to admit, it's still gorgeous, has the form factor nailed down to the simplest elements (finish, weight, balance), runs video seamlessly without the tweaks I have to fiddle with in Kinoma and Coreplayer and the integration of OTA iTunes and application store makes keeping away from the desktop easy (along with the already-solid cloud integration with Google apps). The eye-candy visual impact of the applications are always stunning, if somewhat shallow in usefulness. It's also interesting to browse the app's store and get nostalgic about the days of enthusiasm of Palm developers evidenced on PalmGear.

That said, despite the potential functionality of the 3.0 release, the lack of expandability, keyboard, basic philosophy of the Apple App Store being fundamentally dysfunctional and aforementioned problems getting updates will all keep it out of serious consideration for me. But the same expandability issues on the Pre, along with Palm's record of involuntarily making me a beta-tester over the last 10 years makes me question where I go from here.

The best metaphor for the Apple devices I've discussed with other users is that of a bi-polar alcoholic model girlfriend/boyfriend. Despite things that make you shake your head and occasional life-paralyzing breaks with reality, the looks and other redeeming qualities, albeit shallow, keep you coming back.

Wait a sec, was that a metaphor for my relationship with Palm too? Perhaps I'm projecting.
End of Contract with Sprint- to become a "Pre-vert" or go Android?

RE: Time to trot out the attack ads
abosco @ 3/19/2009 11:08:25 AM # Q
iTunes has proven to be, above and beyond, the most reliable syncing method since serial Hotsync. Whenever there is a message board posting of someone having problems with iTunes recognizing an iPhone, it is inevitably a busted USB port. Your experience is a rarity.

Bosco, you hit the nail on the head for "prosumer" and semi technical users:

A virtual keyboard, no matter what the iteration, is just not a viable option for 99% of the users out there that need to write professional emails to clients or co-workers on while on the road, let alone users that use their device to do serious text entry for blogging, quick doc and spreadsheet edits, etc. I know there are some exceptions to the rule, but by and large this is true. 'likely a fundamental reason BB still hits the adoption rates it does despite it's limited functionality in other areas.

I disagree. 30 million of these devices in the hands of consumers is enough for the facts to disagree with you as well. This article also says otherwise:

http://tinyurl.com/aqpzlu

That said, despite the potential functionality of the 3.0 release, the lack of expandability, keyboard, basic philosophy of the Apple App Store being fundamentally dysfunctional and aforementioned problems getting updates will all keep it out of serious consideration for me.

Unfortunately, this has proven to be largely successful for Apple and developers alike. Having a huge amount of internal storage and no expandable memory has kept away any headaches associated with application data on the card creating instability. It is much easier to code for developers knowing that everything is in one location.

The keyboard, I agree with you, and I'd like to see an iPhone model with a keyboard. However, I would like it to still remain the same size as the current iPhone, and with the same screen size. How this is possible, I don't know, but if they can figure it out, I'd be all over it.

Finally, Apple's app store philosophy has proven to be wildly successful. Not only has it provided a central place to find apps (500 million downloads so far), it has also done a good job of keeping the device stable. However, the drawback is you don't get things like turn-by-turn directions if Apple says they don't want it. But that's why I think the 3.0 update is so critical - it opened up a lot of the restrictions that were in place before.

By the time the Pre is released to the public, they'll be facing the better part of a billion iPhone app store downloads. Honestly, how can they compete with that kind of momentum?

-Bosco
m105 -> NX70v -> NX80v -> iPhone -> iPhone 3G

RE: Time to trot out the attack ads
hkklife @ 3/19/2009 12:21:52 PM # Q
@rcartwright;

Yup, the netbook has really been a fabulous new little niche of the market. I've always been reluctant to tote a classic notebook PC around, due to the weight/size/poor battery life and the risk of theft & damage. But as a <$400 (ideally <$300) item, a netbook is a near-perfect machine for my purposes. I considered my original EEE 701 last year more of a novelty than anything but the 10" screen models strike the perfect balance between usability and portability.

Over the past 9-10 months I've honestly been using my Treo less and less and increasingly relying on my EEE. Heck, I used it exclusively to cover CES and I was tickled to note how my lowly EEE had MANY more ports than Ryan's MacBook Air (but far, far less processing power for video editing). A colleague in Europe was just telling me the other day how everyone (especially students) seems to be toting a netbook. It's nice to see *something* not requirng a data plan & contract occupying the store shelves and price points formerly reserved for PDAs. And I consider still Palm's Fooleo one of the worst products & concepts to ever be developed and almost released.

@ abosco:
iTunes perorms considerably worse under Windows than on an actual Mac. And Apple (and now Palm's) refusal to incorporate a removable memory card slot(s) on ANY of their products is absolutely maddening and worse than Sony's proprietary format arrogance. While I definitely see your point about "gigs" of internal space making things easy for developers and keeping things running speedily, they could just borrow a page from RIM and only have the memory card slot accessible by the media/camera apps. Basically using it as a dedicated slot for the device's media storage capabilities. But we all know Apple likes to sell new units with each refresh so it makes no sense from a business standpoint to offer their customers expandable units.

Oh, and I can ASSURE you all of my USB ports are functining properly on all of my equipment. I haven't had the problems 2klbs has but everything is just SO needlessly complicated and sluggish. If the damned iPod just appeared as a simple removable mass storage-compliant drive I'd drag'n drop all of my music and be DONE with it. Quite often I'll sync several dozen gigs of songs and find that a few songs have mysteriously failed to transfer. So, yeah, just speaking from a Wintel standpoint, it's quite evident that iTunes does a piiss poor job of syncing and managing USB connectivity on Apple devices. That said, there's no denying the juggernaut that Apple's cash cow has become and 3.0 just made the Pre's list of advantages grow noticably smaller.


Pilot 1000->Pilot 5000->PalmPilot Pro->IIIe->Vx->m505->T|T->T|T2->T|C->T|T3->T|T5->Zodiac 2->TX->Verizon Treo 700P->Verizon Treo 755p->?

RE: Time to trot out the attack ads
2klbs @ 3/19/2009 12:26:12 PM # Q
abosco wrote:
iTunes has proven to be, above and beyond, the most reliable syncing method since serial Hotsync. Whenever there is a message board posting of someone having problems with iTunes recognizing an iPhone, it is inevitably a busted USB port. Your experience is a rarity.

I respectful disagree. My too-oft repeated visits to boards on the Apple site and others indicate the issues are more pervasive than acknowledged. Although hearsay, a couple conversations with a personally known Apple Store "genius" confirm that after every firmware release, he spends a number of days doing just what I do on customer devices (although he too suspects USB in many cases, the question on why this occurs at such a high rate when this is a standard, and rarely encountered with other devices is another conversation). I believe that what belies the numbers of reported problems vs the vast number of devices is partially explained by the fact that a large portion, if not most, users rarely sync with their computer. This says much about the airtight integration of the apps store and iTunes, to be sure.

I disagree. 30 million of these devices in the hands of consumers is enough for the facts to disagree with you as well. This article also says otherwise:

http://tinyurl.com/aqpzlu

I don't disagree those numbers speak for themselves about what a wildly successful platform Apple has, but that doesn't imply support for a virtual keyboard on devices used for "real" productivity. The number of enterprise deployments I've been involved with invariably later showed devices with even truncated keyboards become real issues for people that use their devices for productivity vs personal use and entertainment (the "sexy" vs "productive" quandary). How many of those 30 million device users carry duplicate devices supplied by employers, or like my wife, use a BB or other PIM device (or for that matter, use a desktop) to get real email and work done? The security issues that are the very focus of your provided link also support an inference that lots of folks are tethered to two or more devices.

Unfortunately, this has proven to be largely successful for Apple and developers alike. Having a huge amount of internal storage and no expandable memory has kept away any headaches associated with application data on the card creating instability. It is much easier to code for developers knowing that everything is in one location.

I'm not sure I savvy your use of "unfortunately". To be sure, this design execution supports a sound philosophy of control (read: stability) by the company and ease for developers. It also creates a good incentive for upgrade path driven by users that fill the device up quickly with media and applications. ("huge internal storage" gets filled quickly with personal media libraries). As an aside, the ability to exchange a card and load an updated contract, operations document, product catalog, set of marketing flyers, etc., is something an external media-closed device will never do. Even if iTunes sync'd seamlessly every time, the one-way process makes this type of on-the-fly flexibility impossible. (This could perhaps be fixed by using an Apple device in "drive mode", but still cumbersome.)

My point is for "prosumers" and "power users", the lack of ability to port applications to an expandable storage media (a la Palm and G1) creates a limiting ceiling fairly quickly.

The keyboard, I agree with you, and I'd like to see an iPhone model with a keyboard. However, I would like it to still remain the same size as the current iPhone, and with the same screen size. How this is possible, I don't know, but if they can figure it out, I'd be all over it.

Me too, if it was coupled with PIM web integration that makes me (and my employers) feel secure that proprietary and customer data is "safe".

By the time the Pre is released to the public, they'll be facing the better part of a billion iPhone app store downloads. Honestly, how can they compete with that kind of momentum?

I honestly don't think Palm can. Even if they weren't turning their back on legacy users, that group isn't enough to over come Apple's "momentum" or more importantly, Palm's "inertia". Although my point in the original post was to illustrate the ambivalence of myself (and other) Palm users that combine productivity and personal use, I think there is a bigger fact that keeping our kind happy isn't even remotely necessary to keep a successful and expandable business model going. Apple has proven that, if nothing else.
End of Contract with Sprint- to become a "Pre-vert" or go Android?

RE: Time to trot out the attack ads
2klbs @ 3/19/2009 12:46:23 PM # Q
Hkklife:

If you have an iPhone, Drive mode is available. On the Touch, it has to be hacked through a command line on an intel-based Mac. I can find a link if you want it.

However, from what I've read on various developer forums and blogs, Bluetooth integration (in theory) will allow transfer of files between Apple products. Whether it will allow cross-platform transfers I haven't seen addressed.


End of Contract with Sprint- to become a "Pre-vert" or go Android?

RE: Time to trot out the attack ads
hkklife @ 3/19/2009 1:13:04 PM # Q
Alas, I have only an iPod Classic 160gb. And I bought it only because I wanted the biggest HD-based mp3 player (remember those?) still on the market. Thanks for the tip though. Does that hack work on an iPod Touch as well or JUST the iPhone?


Pilot 1000->Pilot 5000->PalmPilot Pro->IIIe->Vx->m505->T|T->T|T2->T|C->T|T3->T|T5->Zodiac 2->TX->Verizon Treo 700P->Verizon Treo 755p->?

RE: Time to trot out the attack ads
2klbs @ 3/19/2009 1:39:43 PM # Q
hkklife wrote:
Alas, I have only an iPod Classic 160gb. And I bought it only because I wanted the biggest HD-based mp3 player (remember those?) still on the market. Thanks for the tip though. Does that hack work on an iPod Touch as well or JUST the iPhone?

Wayyy off topic, but I think it will work for yours. Open iTunes, make sure your device is selected in the "source" pane (left column), then open the "Summary" tab. There should be a box labeled "Enable disk use", then you get to set memory allocation, etc. Keep in mind it can't read songs loaded this way, perhaps because it bypasses ITunes DRM filter.

I (we) don't have an iPhone, but I have hacked the Touch workaround on my wife's just to see if it worked, it does, but hardly useful in "real-life".

Send an email to me and I'd be happy to link it.
End of Contract with Sprint- to become a "Pre-vert" or go Android?

RE: Time to trot out the attack ads
freakout @ 3/19/2009 3:11:13 PM # Q
By the time the Pre is released to the public, they'll be facing the better part of a billion iPhone app store downloads. Honestly, how can they compete with that kind of momentum?

Apple competitors = Hudson? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Xm1XErUvXo

I don't believe that for a second. Everyone's gotta start somewhere. Apple has a leg-up, sure, but they proved themselves that success in the marketplace doesn't rest solely on the immediate availability of third-party apps - else the original iPhone would have never have seen the sales it did.

Pre has sexy hardware & a slick UI, it's gotten very positive buzz and Sprint are likely going to throw an ass-load of marketing dollars behind it. Those are the keys to day-one success.

As for retaining those customers once they've gotten a Pre, that'll definitely hinge in part on Palm building a nice library of apps that people can personalise their devices with. But given the apparent ease of building apps with Mojo, I doubt that's going to take very long.

RE: Time to trot out the attack ads
jca666us @ 3/19/2009 5:15:44 PM # Q
Another history lesson for the freak:

>I don't believe that for a second. Everyone's gotta start somewhere.
>Apple has a leg-up, sure, but they proved themselves that success in the
>marketplace doesn't rest solely on the immediate availability of
>third-party apps - else the original iPhone would have never have seen
>the sales it did.

Apple released the first phone that did an excellent job (minus flash support) of accessing the web.

Nowadays there are several phones that do a very good job of providing web support. For the Pre there needs to be added value for consumers to flock to it. Do you get it?

Before iphone OS 3.0 the Pre had several compelling features; most have been stripped away. Nowadays there aren't many left.

Let's see:

- a tiny keyboard
- four multitasking web apps

>Pre has sexy hardware & a slick UI, it's gotten very positive buzz.

Still, no one has seen a production Pre device...yet...

>Sprint are likely going to throw an ass-load of marketing dollars behind it.

Palm certainly doesn't have any cash for marketing.

>Those are the keys to day-one success.

If they were, HTC or the Blackberry Storm would hav sold several millions of their respective devices.

With the financial dagger hanging over Palm, I hope they can sell several million Pre's.

Apple can exceed any advertising cash Sprint can put forward...and they'll likely be having new devices coming out this summer.

>As for retaining those customers once they've gotten a Pre, that'll
>definitely hinge in part on Palm building a nice library of apps that people
>can personalise their devices with. But given the apparent ease of
>building apps with Mojo, I doubt that's going to take very long.

Let's see, we have the millions of imaginary Pre applications that exist in freak's mind, versus 25,000 apps in Apple's App Store, plus 800 million downloads.

What exactly are the advantages of the Pre that are going to get everyone to buy one?

RE: Time to trot out the attack ads
freakout @ 3/19/2009 8:24:35 PM # M Q
Another history lesson for the freak

Direct from the University of Ass-Hattery!

Pass.

RE: Time to trot out the attack ads
jca666us @ 3/19/2009 8:35:25 PM # Q
Coming from a tool, that doesn't mean much.
RE: Time to trot out the attack ads
SeldomVisitor @ 3/20/2009 3:34:35 AM # Q
> ...What exactly are the advantages of the Pre that are going to get
> everyone to buy one?

Colligan's betting on web services.

RE: Time to trot out the attack ads
jca666us @ 3/20/2009 4:19:29 AM # Q
>Colligan's betting on web services.

Well he's certainly betting the farm! If (once?) this blows up, we might start referring to him as Ralph Kramden.

RE: Time to trot out the attack ads
jca666us @ 3/20/2009 4:31:12 AM # Q
>It riles me to see (1) the posting of "articles" that say things like "Apple saw
>what the Pre had in January and performed programming magic to
>duplicate most of it in only two months!" and (2) the Me-Too Media-like
>repeat of that crap far and wide by those not willing to stop and think a
>moment.

Add in the mistaken assumption that the iphone doesn't multitask.

D'Oh!!

Iphone only supports multitasking for native apps. - 3rd. party apps aren't multitasking because of battery life concerns. Jailbroken phones use an app called backgrounder to allow for multitasking 3rd. party apps.

BTW, another Pre limitation I haven't seen mentioned in these parts:

Those using the Sprint version of the Pre will find that their Pre has an Achilles Heel. Pam Deziel, Palm's vice president of software product management, confirmed at Mobile World Congress on Tuesday that the U.S. Sprint version of the Pre won't be able to surf the Internet and engage a call at the same time.

That's one glaring limitation for a "multitasking" device; thanks Sprint!

RE: Time to trot out the attack ads
SeldomVisitor @ 3/20/2009 5:00:45 AM # Q
Wow, is that right!?

I thought CDMA was the one that COULD do that...have to admit not paying close attention to such things, however.

RE: Time to trot out the attack ads
hkklife @ 3/20/2009 9:49:48 AM # Q
Waitaminute--we were told at CES by more than one Palm person that the Pre could engage in a voice call while being online via wi-fi. !?!?!

So simultaneous WWAN voice/data is obviously not possible (SUPPOSEDLY EVDO REV.A is capable of it but no device or network has supported it so far. I believe this is fairly customary on HSPA networks & devices, however), but the specific example of being on a hotspot and looking something up on the web while talking to someone was given to us at CES.

Confirmation one way or the other, anyone?


Pilot 1000->Pilot 5000->PalmPilot Pro->IIIe->Vx->m505->T|T->T|T2->T|C->T|T3->T|T5->Zodiac 2->TX->Verizon Treo 700P->Verizon Treo 755p->?

RE: Time to trot out the attack ads
abosco @ 3/20/2009 11:11:26 AM # Q
That's strange. I thought EVDO Rev A could handle that sort of bandwidth. I know on the original iPhone, in order to use Safari while on a call, you needed to be on Wifi. If you were using Edge, you couldn't do it. But when the iPhone 3G came out, you could do it on Wifi or 3G.

Source? I need more than a random quote to give me information.

-Bosco
m105 -> NX70v -> NX80v -> iPhone -> iPhone 3G

RE: Time to trot out the attack ads
mikecane @ 3/20/2009 12:12:18 PM # Q
>>>Mike, Woot's got an EEE 900 Linux (black or white, 4GB SSD, Dothan-based) on sale today for $180 + $5 s/h. You gonna pick one up to tide you over until the Pre arrives?

WTF does a damned netbook with too-small kb have to do with a Pre at all?!

And abosco, I think even after the Pre comes out, and I have it, and I like it, you *still* won't understand why, so I'm through 'splainin' to you.

RE: Time to trot out the attack ads
2klbs @ 3/20/2009 12:23:05 PM # Q
abosco wrote:
That's strange. I thought EVDO Rev A could handle that sort of bandwidth. I know on the original iPhone, in order to use Safari while on a call, you needed to be on Wifi. If you were using Edge, you couldn't do it. But when the iPhone 3G came out, you could do it on Wifi or 3G.

Source? I need more than a random quote to give me information.

It would take me a while to source it, but I eventually can:

EVDO Rev A (in general, not just Sprint's implementation) is capable of simultaneous data and voice as long as the carrier has implemented the voice though VOIP over the network. AFAIK Sprint has not converted it's network for the voice channel to VOIP, so in execution EVDO Rev A merely suspends data while a call comes in, then re-connects if call is refused, analogous to "call waiting". So the issue is (I believe) a carrier-based limitation.

(simultaneous WiFi data would be possible through the other dedicated chipset/radio, but it would be up to the Pre/Web OS to regulate that in execution).
End of Contract with Sprint- to become a "Pre-vert" or go Android?

RE: Time to trot out the attack ads
2klbs @ 3/20/2009 12:57:34 PM # Q
EVDO Rev A specs:

http://tiny.cc/94Q3k

http://tiny.cc/BQNGa

Can't find Sprint confirmation beyond forum quotes about Sprint's lack of update from circut-switch to packet-switch to allow voice channel VOIP, but given that many were from Sprint-picked early release phone "advocates" for the Win-Mob Pro, I'd make a bet it's factual.

End of Contract with Sprint- to become a "Pre-vert" or go Android?

RE: Time to trot out the attack ads
abosco @ 3/20/2009 1:58:25 PM # Q
So you're saying it's not a Pre limitation, but a Sprint limitation.

If this is true, then Blackberries and Windows Mobile devices on Sprint can't do it either. Is there any information to back this up? If this is true, it's only more proof that Sprint is a terrible partner for Palm.

-Bosco
m105 -> NX70v -> NX80v -> iPhone -> iPhone 3G

RE: Time to trot out the attack ads
abosco @ 3/20/2009 2:05:44 PM # Q
mikecane wrote:
And abosco, I think even after the Pre comes out, and I have it, and I like it, you *still* won't understand why, so I'm through 'splainin' to you.

You never explained it in the first place! Twitter integration? Cards?

I already know the ending to this story. The iPhone 3.0 comes out with insane hardware, and you're stuck again with the Lifedrive while you consider for another 12 months what to buy. Am I getting warm?

-Bosco
m105 -> NX70v -> NX80v -> iPhone -> iPhone 3G

RE: Time to trot out the attack ads
mikecane @ 3/20/2009 3:16:43 PM # Q
New iPhone would have to come out *before* Pre (which is a distinct possibility!) and have truly breathtaking hardware - because the software ain't doing it for me right now. Not post-Pre.

I like the whole Pre package. I like it's not a slab. Has keyboard. Has Cards. Has better camera. Has webOS - which, again, I think will impact the Net more than iPhone has or even possibly will.

You get to grill me again in the Fall when the contest is ten-inch iPhone OS tablet vs. whatever-sized Pre tablet.

And oh, for you people holding out for iPhone PIMs, I've read an early review of Pocket Informant. Sorry, but that thing is just clunky and inadequate - especially compared to Pre calendar. It's like a grafting of something WinMob to iPhone. Too bad too! I had hopes.

RE: Time to trot out the attack ads
2klbs @ 3/20/2009 3:51:30 PM # Q
abosco wrote:
So you're saying it's not a Pre limitation, but a Sprint limitation.

If this is true, then Blackberries and Windows Mobile devices on Sprint can't do it either. Is there any information to back this up? If this is true, it's only more proof that Sprint is a terrible partner for Palm.

Yes, it is at least a carrier limitation, at least I said I believed that in my previous 2 posts. Of course, I have no idea if it is a Pre limitation if the networks took care of their side.

As to your question above, I know from personal experience with Sprint on my wife's BB it is true (that is: no simultaneous USE of data/voice). i.e. device actively on web, call comes, pick up call, data suspends, hang up call, data resumes if packet still open, -or- refuse call, data exchange stays open. It works the same as it does on my 755P, although any real duration of call length (if not refused) makes me refresh data link when I go back.

As far as Win Mob, as recently as the Pro roll-out last month, users continue to confirm same behavior on various forums .

Regarding the pro's and con's of Palm's partnership with Sprint; for whatever it's worth, I'm fairly sure neither US CDMA carrier (Sprint nor Verizon) on EVDO Rev A has converted voice channels to VOIP in the USA (with the exception of Push To Talk, but the Nextel/Sprint overlay networks are another conversation).
End of Contract with Sprint- to become a "Pre-vert" or go Android?

RE: Time to trot out the attack ads
twrock @ 3/20/2009 3:56:52 PM # Q
mikecane wrote:
And oh, for you people holding out for iPhone PIMs, I've read an early review of Pocket Informant. Sorry, but that thing is just clunky and inadequate - especially compared to Pre calendar. It's like a grafting of something WinMob to iPhone. Too bad too! I had hopes.

Hmm, that's too bad. You'd think a decent PIM system wouldn't be that hard to develop and would be a valuable set of apps. I know it is extremely important to me in a mobile device. What's the problem? Is it just that the kinds of people who buy an iPhone are all about media and games and don't care about little things like getting work done and keeping up with some organization in their lives? Why no decent PIM after all this time? (Actually, "all this time" nothing; that should have been included in the device in the first place.)


"twrock is infamous around these parts" (from my profile over at Brighthand due to my negative 62 rep points rating)

RE: Time to trot out the attack ads
2klbs @ 3/20/2009 5:31:38 PM # Q
twrock wrote:
mikecane wrote:
And oh, for you people holding out for iPhone PIMs, I've read an early review of Pocket Informant. Sorry, but that thing is just clunky and inadequate - especially compared to Pre calendar. It's like a grafting of something WinMob to iPhone. Too bad too! I had hopes.

Hmm, that's too bad. You'd think a decent PIM system wouldn't be that hard to develop and would be a valuable set of apps. I know it is extremely important to me in a mobile device. What's the problem? Is it just that the kinds of people who buy an iPhone are all about media and games and don't care about little things like getting work done and keeping up with some organization in their lives? Why no decent PIM after all this time? (Actually, "all this time" nothing; that should have been included in the device in the first place.)

When I was first enticed to go iPod Touch (prior to me trying to use the keyboard for "real" email, the syncing nightmare that is my reality and lack of battery flexibility, *which I don't see raised as an issue nor defended in this forum*), I found this blog for another lost soul that took the Palm to iPhone plunge- and it made me blanch:

http://tiny.cc/XAHep

Although the Pre is only slowly coming out of vaporware status I would truly hope to see the Synergy concept done well. Android relies (obviously) on Google (much as many Touch and iPhone users do) and the Google execution has its limits. Nothing I've ever used, Win Mob, Apple nor Symbian, have ever matched Palm's simplicity and rock solid execution of PIM.

I would expect and hope that given Palm's past "true" raison d'ętr (& the reason I've stayed with them for 11 years), they will excel in this area, and perhaps even expect Pre/Web OS PIM to be a leg up over iPhone 3.0.

There are always limitations to any hardware integration, it's inherent in the trade-offs of the design process. In reality, one platform is really "less bad" than another in the attempt to appeal to the largest slice of the consumer pie, (the rabid infatuation displayed by the average iPhone user excepted).

All that said, if the Cloud is where we're all going to end up, a given device's ability to harvest and present in its integration levels some of the playing field between the Pre and Apple (for at least a subset of potential users).
End of Contract with Sprint- to become a "Pre-vert" or go Android?

RE: Time to trot out the attack ads
twrock @ 3/20/2009 11:01:06 PM # Q
^^ Interesting link. Thanks.

Now a short rant:

"Vaporware is a term used to describe a software or hardware product that is announced by a developer well in advance of release, but which then fails to emerge after having well exceeded the period of development time that was initially claimed or would normally be expected for the development cycle of a similar product."

I love how that term is being redefined on this site. If the Pre has not emerged "after having well exceeded the period of development time that was initially claimed", then I can understand the use of the term. Otherwise, like the iPhone when it was announced well before it was released, the Pre has not been and is not now vaporware; it's simply "pre-release". Since Palm have told us "first half 09" how about we all wait until at least the end of July before claiming the Pre is vaporware.

"twrock is infamous around these parts" (from my profile over at Brighthand due to my negative 62 rep points rating)

RE: Time to trot out the attack ads
SeldomVisitor @ 3/21/2009 3:39:58 AM # Q
I sincerely believe the Pre totally meets the definition of vaporware as defined by those whose business it is to dfine words:

== va⋅por⋅ware
==
== /ˈveɪpərˌwɛər/
==
== –noun
==
== Computer Slang. a product, esp. software, that is promoted or marketed
== while it is still in development and that may never be produced.

- http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/vaporware

RE: Time to trot out the attack ads
SeldomVisitor @ 3/21/2009 3:42:35 AM # Q
Lol! That vaporware definition links to the "brochureware" definition - too funny:

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/brochureware

RE: Time to trot out the attack ads
jca666us @ 3/21/2009 6:13:32 AM # Q
I don't believe the Pre is vaporware, however analysts are keeping the stock price high (and expect it to hit $13) because they believe:

1. The device to be released in June.
2. The device will perform as expected (and as it was demoed back in January).
3. Sales figures are expected to be at least a million by the end of 2009

If June becomes a paper launch, or there is missing software functionality at launch, or the device misses sales expectations, then things will start to look very bad.

RE: Time to trot out the attack ads
mikecane @ 3/21/2009 1:44:24 PM # Q
>>>Hmm, that's too bad. You'd think a decent PIM system wouldn't be that hard to develop and would be a valuable set of apps. I know it is extremely important to me in a mobile device. What's the problem? Is it just that the kinds of people who buy an iPhone are all about media and games and don't care about little things like getting work done and keeping up with some organization in their lives? Why no decent PIM after all this time?

I don't know. All I know is what I read and especially what I saw of PI screensnaps made me recoil in horror. It is more WinMob-like, lacks iPhone flair, and is just so piss-poor compared to Palm (even Pre Calendar - which, btw, I'm not too nifty about that accordioning, I can see free time on my own thank you very much!), that there was no way I'd ever get an iPhone for PIM and use PI for that, More reviews are appearing and you should seek them out to see firsthand.

Rob Haitani still For The Win.

RE: Time to trot out the attack ads
mikecane @ 3/21/2009 1:53:32 PM # Q
RE: Time to trot out the attack ads
twrock @ 3/21/2009 4:07:51 PM # Q
(Yes, no surprise SV quickly responded; he's one of those who wanted to apply the term to Pre the day it was announced.)

"...and that may never be produced."

So SV, if I accept your interpretation of that definition, I guess that means every product that is announced prior to it's availability is vaporware because every product "may never be produced" ... until it actually is.

Just because a few of you refused to believe the Pre was even possible, doesn't mean that you knew what you were babbling about. Regardless of how much you wished failure for the Pre, it is going to be released. You really should get over your obsessive hatred for Palm.

"twrock is infamous around these parts" (from my profile over at Brighthand due to my negative 62 rep points rating)

RE: Time to trot out the attack ads
jca666us @ 3/21/2009 5:11:27 PM # Q
twrock,

i don't believe anyone wants it to fail, however people are skeptical. Not that Palm cannot produce the Pre, but that they can be successful doing so. Palm has alot of lost ground to make up for.

I hope they can push it out by the end of June - however taking Palm's own word that they are still tweaking the hardware and the software - 14 weeks before release - legitimately puts the vague release date of 1/2 half 2009 in question.

RE: Time to trot out the attack ads
twrock @ 3/21/2009 5:55:41 PM # Q
jca666us wrote:
i don't believe anyone wants it to fail....

Look again. ;-)

"Putting the release date in question", and calling it vaporware are two different things. (Yes, I know you are not calling it vaporware, but obviously others are.) They have repeatedly told us "first half 2009", and that has a limit. Based on "well exceeded the period of development time that was initially claimed", I suggested that we all wait until at least the end of July before starting to apply "vaporware" to this product. (Or is one month too long a period of time to qualify for "well exceeded".)

"twrock is infamous around these parts" (from my profile over at Brighthand due to my negative 62 rep points rating)

RE: Time to trot out the attack ads
jca666us @ 3/21/2009 6:34:04 PM # Q
Personally, I'd rather Palm had not committed to any release date.

Even if released in first half 2009 - it will probably need a few firmware updates to unleash it's full potential and fix any bugs that slip past QA.

To me tweaking the software means "what features can we drop to release on time", while "hardware tweaking" could mean adjusting processor speed to maximize battery life (changes beyond that are more troublesome).

That could end up backfiring on Palm - as early adopters could sour on a buggy product released too early (i.e. blackberry storm). I'd rather they are two or three months late and release a finished and polished Pre. The problem is by making the "first half 2009" statement, they are locking themselves in when they really didn't need to.


RE: Time to trot out the attack ads
mikecane @ 3/22/2009 8:17:24 AM # Q
>>>legitimately puts the vague release date of 1/2 half 2009 in question.

As much as I really want one for June and July, I'd settle for August release if it means it'll be as bug-free as humanly possible. And maybe bring along some surprise devs too.

They need to get it DONE RIGHT, not simply DONE.

RE: Time to trot out the attack ads
palmato @ 3/22/2009 9:17:00 AM # Q
As much as I really want one for June and July, I'd settle for August release if it means it'll be as bug-free as humanly possible.

However, by August the market will be flooded with "iphone 3.0's" and for Palm it will be very difficult to quickly achieve visibility. The financial situation of the company is so bad they may not survive two more quarters.
More and more it becomes evident that Palm is wasting precious time: had they introduced the pre in march even in a beta state, they would have sold quite a lot. At this point even the end of June is getting too late.

I also have a bad feeling about the SDK. What we have seen so far is quite lame: making a demo with a text editor without any integrated environment, feels so 90's. The final release will need to be a lot better, and I'm not confident they can do it.
They also need to have a plan for a native sdk, the mojo sdk may be good enough for web applications but not for much more. The Iphone is getting better with each release and right now the gap has grown so much that attracting new developers may be too hard. Not to mention that dumping the old ones might not be the smartest move....
(end of rant)
-------------
Hey Admin: Why do we have to keep two profiles?

RE: Time to trot out the attack ads
SeldomVisitor @ 3/22/2009 10:24:20 AM # Q
W.r.t. the SDK PALM was unambiguous about (1) it being released in beta form to a select set of developers AFTER the Pre is released and (2) then being released eventually (!!!) to general developers:

== "...But we think we will have a significant amount of developer support
== when we come out with the product and then we will do kind of a private
== release of the SDK, maybe an open beta release at some point, and
== then really have a full release of the SDK at some point for all
== developers to take advantage of it..."

[BTW - I think Palm's deathly afraid of someone hacking their device and THAT is why they're not generally releasing the SDK when it CAN be generally released]

Of COURSE without an SDK there is NO WAY to develop ANY code for the Pre that uses any Pre features!

No database.

No sound.

No graphics.

No WebOS.

No accelerometer.

Nothing Pre-specific.

That is to say, it's gonna be a LONG time before ANY interesting widgets are developed for the Pre after it is launched.

MAYBE there will be an Epocrates SOMETHING (will it be a widget or application? Will it use the cloud or will it be entirely resident on the Pre? I believe Epocrates as it exists on Palm and WinMob now is entirely resident on the respective devices) available on launch, but the timeframe of only half a year from intro to launch doesn't leave much (read that as "any"...) room for reliable development.

RE: Time to trot out the attack ads
jca666us @ 3/22/2009 1:16:48 PM # Q
Palmato, I think the iphone 3.0 will trounce the Pre in sales to general consumers - regardless of whenever the Pre is released.

I'd guess that video capture and upload will be the "killer app" Apple will be touting, along with games. They know where their bread is buttered and the improvements they make to the iphone hardware will cement that for them.

While the Pre will have "cloud computing" - zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.

Pre will also have multitasking for 3rd party apps, however without a native SDK that's a non-feature at this point.

>More and more it becomes evident that Palm is wasting precious time:
>had they introduced the pre in march even in a beta state, they would
>have sold quite a lot. At this point even the end of June is getting too late.

I disagree - Palm has left such a bad taste in the mouths of so many consumers over the years that they need a solid release in order to generate good word of mouth for Palm.

>The Iphone is getting better with each release and right now the gap has
>grown so much that attracting new developers may be too hard. Not to
>mention that dumping the old ones might not be the smartest move....

The Pre should have had a built-in compatibility layer for Palm OS apps. The problem they have with developers getting on board - what to develop for.

The iphone with 30 million users or the Pre starting at ground zero.

RE: Time to trot out the attack ads
SeldomVisitor @ 3/22/2009 4:44:54 PM # Q

[BTW - I think Palm's deathly afraid of someone hacking their device and THAT is why they're not generally releasing the SDK when it CAN be generally released]

http://www.pcworld.com/article/161539/beware_malware_in_web_apps.html


Reply to this comment

Palm Neutron OS and Palm P100 and Palm Monk

SeldomVisitor @ 3/16/2009 12:55:28 PM # Q
RE: Palm Neutron OS and Palm P100 and Palm Monk
jca666us @ 3/18/2009 3:39:24 AM # Q
>I still wouldn't buy an iPhone - I ain't buying anything without a keyboard
>that forces me to sync with iTunes (gag) - but I'll stop laughing at it now.

Still, it's a much more sought after development platform. 30 million user installed base versus Z-E-R-O users for the Pre.

Palm has their work cut out for them.

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