Palm Considered Basing Next-Gen OS On Symbian and Linux

When Palm was trying to decide what direction to take its next-generation operating system, it first considered basing it on Symbian and later on Linux, according to The Register.

In 1999, Palm made plans to rewrite the Palm OS to be based on the Symbian OS but Palm's Board of Directors was opposed to the idea so the deal fell apart. Next, the company strongly considered basing it on Linux. However, the company's lawyers weren't happy about basing a proprietry operating system on one that is open-source so that plan was dropped in favor of developing one from the ground up.

Symbian
In October 1999, Palm announced an agreement with Nokia to work together to create a smartphone that would use a combination of both the Symbian and Palm OS. Attendees at 1999's PalmSource Conference were told that joint APIs could be expected in mid-2000, but this, obviously, never happened.

What Symbian had to offer to Palm was a software platform designed to be used as the basis for wireless information devices, delivering applications integrated with wireless telephony and data.

Linux
Linux is open sourced and uses the GNU General Public License (GPL). Palm's lawyers advised the company to not base their operating system on one with a GPL licence. Doing so would have allowed Palm to sell their operating system but any customers who bought the OS could get a copy of the source code free for the asking.

Be OS
Last fall, Palm bought Be, Inc. and included many of its engineers in its development team. However, that doesn't mean Palm OS 5 is based on the Be OS. Instead, Palm and now PalmSource have written OS 5 from the ground up to support ARM-based processors.

Thanks to mtg101 for the tip. -Ed

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and this means what?

I.M. Anonymous @ 7/9/2002 11:34:05 AM #
OK, so they are looking and not going with these other options. We would assume they would, but what does this matter? I guess we can feel good that Palm is looking to make sure they are the best by staying in house with their OS. Other than that though... no new news.

OS 5 will be a little jump that will get hardcore, early buyers to buy the units. But the person on the street will see no need, they will stay with cool outside items like the Clie line or lower price units with the older OS.

OS 6 may be cool, but any time you tell the world that you are releaseing a product that is a stepping stone to a better product. The fence sitters remain on the fence and upgrade units are not bought till the new OS shows. That is, unless the competition releases something new and real. Which us being Palm OS users will think a update to the .Net handheld OS is nothing special, but we alone do not support the future of the Palm OS, rather the masses that want to be told what to buy. M$ has not problem telling them that their way is the only way.

Just my thoughts... and yours?

RE: and this means what?
I.M. Anonymous @ 7/9/2002 12:07:08 PM #
The article meant to give a insightful look at what Palm was dealing with when they were choosing their next OS.

Your lack of ability to figure that out makes me think you are a troll, a moron, or both.

RE: and this means what?
I.M. Anonymous @ 7/9/2002 12:15:03 PM #
Thanks for your comments. I'm not a troll... I was pointing out some items that we should think about. Love my Palm OS device(s), but we need to stay realistic. We need more users and the parent company making money otherwise we have a small less powerful Newton.
RE: and this means what?
I.M. Anonymous @ 7/9/2002 1:41:02 PM #
This update is actually *VERY* relevant, and *VERY* exciting, but to see it as such, you must have a different perspective than some/most of the visitors of this site.

Firstly, you must be open to a few points that are not very easy to digest when first encountered by folks who are short-sighted, or who haven't been around business long enough to understand:

1) the masses decide what will be popular, not the people on this board. The masses have chosen the Palm IIIx, the m100 and the m105. Not PocketPC. This speaks volumes. This means people want to use their PDAs as organizers, and nothing else. A few high-end people want to store pictures and sounds. That's it. And there's us.....the Palm enthusiasts.

Advantage: Palm & Symbian
Screwed: Microsoft

2) everyone and their mom is going to have a cell phone in the future. Period. End of story. People will discontinue their "Teen Lines", and buy their kids flat-out low-end cell phones, there will be no land-lines, PERIOD. If my grandparents could've called my mother directly and avoided 5 minutes of small talk with my pops, they would've, period. That right there more than doubles the amount of cell phones th eaverage American family has. Any way you look at it, land lines are goners, pure pagers are goners....to explain this further takes too much time, but I'm right.

Advantage: Symbian
Screwed: Palm & Microsoft (no truly effective distribution plan for either)

3) Whoever licenses their operating system to the most/best distributors of cell phones/wireless utilities (future PDAs) will win the war. PERIOD. Whether you realize it or not, Symbian already has a deal with Nokia that will soon make them the ultimate power in the universe. Palm may as well jump on. Microsoft stands no chance. Nobody wants their 20 MB operating system on their cell phone, and nobody wants that Stinger sh*t, either.

Cell phones will be used to make calls, used as an organizer, used to send wireless messages, and in niche markets, as a camera. Not to modify excel spreadsheets or Powerpoint presentations. People will use laptops or tablets for that.

Most of the people here have NO IDEA what is coming. If you want a clue, head over to Nokia.com and click on any other country besides the U.S.

Every country but the US has cell phones that absolutely sh*t on the Treo (and this is coming from someone who wants a damn Treo 270!).

They have higher resolution color screens, operating systems that don't fail, built in cameras, the superior Symbian operating system (which already natively works with all important Microsoft documents).


Symbian combined with Nokia (the world's #1 phone seller) would've been the death of Palm as far as smart phones go. They would've destroyed Microsoft too, only it would've taken longer.

Now, if Palm & Symbian team up with ANYONE, let alone Nokia, it will surely be the death knell of Pocket PC, and the Microsoft phone initiative (whatever it's called).

This stuff is 5 years away, but severe consequences like the ones listed above are years in the making, and that time is NOW.

I can only hope Palm buys Symbian, or joins with Symbian (or even learns from Symbian). I really, really, really hope Palm makes a partnership with Symbian, and so should you.

RE: and this means what?
I.M. Anonymous @ 7/9/2002 2:02:40 PM #
Wow, I'm a major jack*ss. After typing that long rant, I re-read the update, and realized it said,
"Consider-ed", not "is considering".

Well, never mind.

Palm will be in 2nd place in 5 years, while Microsoft will slog along in 3rd place behind Symbian and Palm until they get tired of flushing cash down the toilet.

Sigh.......


RE: and this means what?
I.M. Anonymous @ 7/9/2002 2:32:56 PM #
Man, your good.

Care to make any stock picks for me? Nobody knows what the future holds... only best guesses!


RE: and this means what?
I.M. Anonymous @ 7/9/2002 3:09:03 PM #
A Sympian GSM/GPRS Phone from SonyEricsson, the P800, will be available in Europe this fall.

Just check their website for details, it is a quite impressive smartphone ...

Just hoping that Palm is not sleeping either ;-)

RE: and this means what?
I.M. Anonymous @ 7/9/2002 3:16:22 PM #
>>"A Sympian GSM/GPRS Phone from SonyEricsson, the P800, will be available in Europe this fall.
Just check their website for details, it is a quite impressive smartphone ...
Just hoping that Palm is not sleeping either ;-)"

Yeah - and Palm OS phones from Handspring, Samsung, and Kyocera are available now - with more advanced models coming this fall from these manufacturers ASWELL AS phones from Palm and presumably others. Don't get me wrong - Ericson and Nokia have the channels to move phones - but they have zero track record/ability to establish a standard OS. Kyocera is currently the no.1 selling smart-phone in the world (admittedly, they haven't had any real competition until now...). Palm OS is a huge advantage because it is the one PDA OS that most of the planet knows. For Ericson and Nokia to move Symbian phones (beyond just one-time hits because of a particular units 'cool' form-factor) they need to push the idea in the mind of the public that these devices can offer what has traditionally been considered desktop functionality. They need to help push software development so that users have selection of apps/games to choose from - NOT just whatever crap peoples service providers let them have (i.e. the lame WAP approach that lost so much $$$ for so many companies). Yes - there is a lot of Sybian OS app development going on - but it's not even close to the scale of PalmOS or even PPC development in terms of numbers.

If Palm OS 5 had come out a year ago - I don't think there would be much don't that they would be a shoe-in to win this race. But as it is - when all factors are considered - i'm pretty hesitant to pick any of these horses as the clear winner at this early stage.

RE: and this means what?
I.M. Anonymous @ 7/10/2002 3:46:02 AM #
First poster is slightly missing the point re: operating systems. You will be able to upgrade the OS from 5 to 6.

I didn't hold off buying a PC just because XP was just around the corner - I know I can upgrade.

The same applies to OS5

RE: and this means what?
I.M. Anonymous @ 7/10/2002 11:19:10 AM #
"Palm OS is a huge advantage because it is the one PDA OS that most of the planet knows. For Ericson and Nokia to move Symbian phones (beyond just one-time hits because of a particular units 'cool' form-factor) they need to push the idea in the mind of the public that these devices can offer what has traditionally been considered desktop functionality."

You know the way people see an OS on a phone, it's transparent ...... why should I care !? Yeah it should be transparent, and hell they runs java apps. Most people don't even care if they can compose ringtone on their phone, so why would they even care for apps.

You don't need to wait long, maybe just another 12 months to see Symbian taking over the Smartphone world. Well unless one day Sony wakes up and breakup with Ericsson and start making palm OS phone, otherwise you'll need to wait for hell to freeze over in order for palm to really get into the smartphone business. Coz all those so called Smartphone makers of PalmOS sux big time right now, Samsung is clueless, hHandspring is even more clueless, and that CDMA phone maker don't even bother.

RE: and this means what?
useybird @ 7/10/2002 8:53:50 PM #
it's too bad that the only good cell phones are sold in every country except the US. I think its time to wake up and start getting better cell phones in this country and for the FCC to be more lenient on its rules

BTW If Palm joins with Symbian and the result is a successful product micro$oft will be sh*tting in their pants. If that happens the only good thing M$ will be known for is computer hardware

--()-- Support the USA in the war against terrorism.

RE: and this means what?
I.M. Anonymous @ 7/10/2002 9:33:24 PM #
To boot, we don't have GSM in large quantities from any single carrier (although it looks like now AT&T is not only considering merging with Cingular, but also VoiceStream)

Now, for the fun part.....the dirty little secret is that apparently you CAN actually get those phones to work here in the U.S., *if* you've got a friend at VoiceStream, Cingular, or AT&T Wireless (GSM version) that will activate a GSM account for you on another phone, and allow you to use that SIM card. Remember, in every country BESIDES the United States, many people have multiple phones, and simply swap SIM cards depending on what they're doing (ie Camping, Business, etc.)

There are even a couple of people out there who have bought Unlocked Treo 270s and gotten them to work on AT&T's GSM network.

Just some food for thought.

This is very very ....

I.M. Anonymous @ 7/9/2002 1:55:01 PM #
very interesting story, isn't that?


Too bad

sub_tex @ 7/9/2002 1:57:39 PM #
Man i would have killed for a sleek color Symbian device. Especially since that OS works for both portrait and landscape. (Quartz and Crystal).



RE: Too bad
sub_tex @ 7/9/2002 2:01:59 PM #
Also, Symbian is a fully featured OS. Very suprising working on a Diamond Mako and having a regular file structure and a real web browser (Opera) in that tiny package.

I think it was better when i didn't know they had considered this. :)

RE: Too bad
I.M. Anonymous @ 7/9/2002 2:05:40 PM #
Symbian is the BOMB. Most people that visit this site don't understand that, nor do they realize what's coming.

Palm was going to beat out PocketPC anyway. Now it looks like they'll have competition from Symbian too. Either way, PocketPC is a goner, and so is Palm if they don't hurry up a find a way to get their operating system in a LOT of good products QUICKLY.

These things can't be like the Treo....they need to be like NexTel, Nokia, etc., and be available at every retailer, every street corner, every outhouse, penthouse, doghouse, Best Buy, etc.

I've YET to see the Treo 180 at anywhere other than CompUSA and ONE Best Buy (of the 3 I live near).

Read the rant that is a few subjects up.

RE: Too bad
I.M. Anonymous @ 7/9/2002 3:32:58 PM #
>>These things can't be like the Treo....they need to be like NexTel, Nokia, etc., and be available at every retailer, every street corner, every outhouse, penthouse, doghouse, Best Buy, etc.

Exactly. The Symbian consortium is formidable. Palm made the right first steps in seperating its OS business from its hardware business - but it needs to do much more in the way of involving liscensees in the process of maintaining and extending the OS - thus benefitting from the extra resources. Though Kyocera and Samsung are important - they need support from more Telco/Cell manufacturer companies. And they also need to convince Sony to hedge its smartphone bets by also putting out a phone based on Palm OS (i believe Samsung currently has plans for phones based on all 3 OSs - so why can't Sony also put out a Palm phone?).

RE: Too bad
I.M. Anonymous @ 7/9/2002 4:11:09 PM #
Isn't Nokia a PalmOS licensee? Sony has the Clie line but will they put out a SonyEriccson phone is anyone's guess.

PalmOS has a sizeable market share in smart phones already, so I'd say they are far from "screwed". So far it looks like this for the two leading wireless phone tech: CDMA + PalmOS, GSM + Symbian.

RE: Too bad
bcombee @ 7/9/2002 5:32:36 PM #
Nokia is a licensee, but there's no evidence of Nokia working on a device since the initial flirtation with Palm back around 1999.

For a full list of disclosed licensees, see http://www.palmos.com/licensees/.

--
CodeWarrior for Palm OS technical lead
Programming help at www.palmoswerks.com

RE: Too bad
gaardii @ 7/10/2002 10:06:38 AM #
SonyEricsson already has a phone out (and with some nice features like a VGA 4092 colours touchscreen, multimedia capabilities and more internal memory than my Clie 625C!). However, this is more of a clever phone than a proper pda. It runs Symbian OS 7.0

Gordon from Edinburgh
*Palms don't grow on palmtrees, they get washed up on Palm Beach*

How could Palm write a new OS from scratch?

mattgrab @ 7/9/2002 2:29:32 PM #
The Palmos kernel is based on the AMX kernel from embedded systems vendor Kadak. If Palm wrote it from scratch, did they have to re-negotiate their licensing with Kadak?
Additionally, the decision to emulate on the new hardware could make Palm irrelevant. Think about it, I can run PalmOS programs on a PocketPC if I have a PalmOS ROM image from any of my Palms. I can run any PalmOS programs on a Zaurus too.

RE: How could Palm write a new OS from scratch?
Boze @ 7/9/2002 2:56:56 PM #
"Additionally, the decision to emulate on the new hardware could make Palm irrelevant. Think about it, I can run PalmOS programs on a PocketPC if I have a PalmOS ROM image from any of my Palms. I can run any PalmOS programs on a Zaurus too."

And a Mac can run almost any software written for Windows in emulation mode, right? But that's certainly not going to make Microsoft irrelevant.

Just my $0.02.

====
Boze
====

Palm CAN write a new OS from scratch, ndeed !
I.M. Anonymous @ 7/9/2002 3:05:59 PM #
and Microsoft IS irrelevant.
The problem is no one so far has noticed yet.

I am looking forward to see it happne anytime ;-)

RE: How could Palm write a new OS from scratch?
I.M. Anonymous @ 7/9/2002 3:35:54 PM #
PalmSource wrote their own kernel for OS5.
RE: How could Palm write a new OS from scratch?
I.M. Anonymous @ 7/9/2002 4:02:48 PM #
"Additionally, the decision to emulate on the new hardware could make Palm irrelevant. Think about it, I can run PalmOS programs on a PocketPC if I have a PalmOS ROM image from any of my Palms. I can run any PalmOS programs on a Zaurus too."

PPC emulation runs within the PPC OS. Palm OS 5 PACE emulation is as low level as you can get - it has the OS 4.1 API written in native ARM. When OS 5 comes out, not only will older apps run faster on a OS 5 device with comparable processor, then on an equivalent PPC device, but you will really notice a difference when we begin to see apps that use Armlets (if PPC emulators even attempts this). No question - OS 5 devices will run faster (there isn't much guessing in such speculation either - its an easy conclusion based on the specs). And OS 6? When Palm OS moves entirely to native ARM apps, PPC emulation will be completely irrelevant - remember, you need a device that is many times faster in order to do decent emulation - and that will no longer be the case.

RE: How could Palm write a new OS from scratch?
mattgrab @ 7/9/2002 4:05:21 PM #
So they wrote their own kernel for OS5. But didn't they do it before the technical excellence of the BEOS team? Will they have to re-write it again when BePalmOS/OS6 comes out? I would venture that writing a kernel is no small task. They could be ironing out the OS5 kernel for years.

RE: How could Palm write a new OS from scratch?
I.M. Anonymous @ 7/9/2002 4:16:09 PM #
Oops - in my opening sentence above, i should have said "PPC emulation of Palm OS runs within the PPC OS." NOT "PPC emulation runs within the PPC OS. "
RE: How could Palm write a new OS from scratch?
bcombee @ 7/9/2002 5:40:34 PM #
OS 5 has a new kernel. Writing a kernel isn't easy, but its not as hard as you think, and they've been working on the OS 5 kernel since early 2000, since they showed Palm OS 3.5 running on ARM hardware in December 2000 at PalmSource. Georgia Tech students regularly write basic OS kernels as part of the undergrad OS class in sixteen weeks, so getting something working on ARM hardware with a talented group of professional developers is quite feasible.

The AMX kernel used in the 68K-based OSes was from Kadak, but all the user-visible code has always been Palm, so porting to a new kernel isn't too difficult.

--
CodeWarrior for Palm OS technical lead
Programming help at www.palmoswerks.com

RE: How could Palm write a new OS from scratch?
I.M. Anonymous @ 7/9/2002 6:13:26 PM #
My question is, once OS 5 is released, how possible would it be to flash the OS to a PocketPC device? The processor is the same, the screen would be supported (240x320), i'm not sure about video memory access though. With a 16mb ROM... I could put alot in the extra 11mb there and then 32 meg of RAM as well.
Could be interesting. If it could be accomplished, then anyone with a IPAQ could buy a OS upgrade from Palm (just like 4.0) and turn their bloated handheld into a sexy, sleek palm powered device.

-J-

RE: How could Palm write a new OS from scratch?
I.M. Anonymous @ 7/9/2002 8:04:05 PM #
Just like any computer, you would have to ask the hardware driver support....

(screen accelerator, I/O driver, buttons, audio system, etc.)

Palm OS 5 on PPC hardware
bcombee @ 7/9/2002 11:00:09 PM #
Yes, it would be possible to port Palm OS 5 to existing ARM-based PocketPC hardware, although there would be problems -- the current builds of OS 5 don't support screens of sizes other than 160x160 and 320x320, so you would need to implement the 1.5x density support. I've mentioned this idea to people at PalmSource, and they laughed at the suggestion, but more as "that would be a cool hack" than "that's impossible". However, without being an OS licensee, it would be impossible for you to legally get the information and source needed to do this port, and unless there's some secret negotiation going on between PalmSource and HP/Compaq, I think its unlikely.

--
CodeWarrior for Palm OS technical lead
Programming help at www.palmoswerks.com
RE: How could Palm write a new OS from scratch?
I.M. Anonymous @ 7/9/2002 11:26:45 PM #
.and more importantly, what is the chance Toshiba, Casio, HP would devulge their schematic and spec so Palm hacker can write a PPC hack?

Linux encounter such difficulties in the early days before iPAQ.

(plus who on earth wanna have PALM on handheld anyway? Linux would be much a much cooler ARM hack than running a single thread OS like Palm. Not to mention it has reliable Palm OS emulator already running.)

RE: How could Palm write a new OS from scratch?
Galley_SimRacer @ 7/9/2002 11:58:31 PM #
How did they write a new OS from scratch? Simple, the former Be Inc. engineers are freaking geniuses!

--
"Life is what you experience between racing games"
Galley
RE: How could Palm write a new OS from scratch?
I.M. Anonymous @ 7/10/2002 2:23:49 AM #
They might be a bunch of genius, but their stuff don't sell so far including their attempt at Sony's IA. Not to mention there are far more esotheric OSes like Plan 9, unix light weight variant, or even Java that are works of geniuses.

So, cross yer fingers....

RE: How could Palm write a new OS from scratch?
I.M. Anonymous @ 7/10/2002 9:43:49 AM #
> BePalmOS/OS6

Palm bought Be for its engineers, not its OS. OS 6 will look like an updated version of OS 5, not Be OS. Palm already has the most successful handheld OS in the world, hands down. Switching to a failed one would be a serious mistake, no matter how much it appeals to a few of us geeks.

RE: How could Palm write a new OS from scratch?
I.M. Anonymous @ 7/10/2002 4:23:53 PM #
So it looks like it took the Be people only a few months to write OS 5, while Palm was fiddling around since 1999?! Wow. Palm buys Be in the fall, and in under a year they write a new OS on new hardware - very impressive. I can't wait to see what they (Be) will do for OS 6. What happened to all of the hold Palm engineers while this was happening?
RE: How could Palm write a new OS from scratch?
Bartman007 @ 7/10/2002 6:59:23 PM #
>Think about it, I can run PalmOS programs on a PocketPC if I have a PalmOS ROM image from any of my Palms. I can run any PalmOS programs on a Zaurus too.

Nope, sorry buddy. PocketPalm, the only Palm OS emulator for the PPC supports the original DragonBall processor.
From the Readme:

You need a copy of a Palm ROM to make the emulator work. You must rename the ROM file as “palm.rom” and store it in the root directory (\) of your PocketPC. The following ROMs are supported in this version: OS 1.0, OS 2.0 - 2.02, OS 3.0 to 3.52 (only for DB devices, non EZ and VZ like Palm III).


It is able to display 1 bit 160x160 screen and cannot emulate color in any way. While the IrDA and serial code are complete (not USB) they still need quite a bit of work to run reliably.

I don't want to sound like an ass**** while correcting the original poster's statement I hate it when people give blatently wrong information is the basis for part of the forum discussion.

Peace,
-Bartman007

The suits, not the geeks

I.M. Anonymous @ 7/9/2002 4:02:40 PM #
It is interesting to see that both of the options Palm considered were shot down by the suits (the board and the lawyers), despite the fact that both held considerable promise from a technical point of view.

That's one of the things I think really blows about the tech business: you can have the greatest technical talent on Earth but the product can still suck because the suits have override power. (and usually 1/8 the brain cells)

RE: The suits, not the geeks
I.M. Anonymous @ 7/9/2002 4:13:15 PM #
>the suits have override power. (and usually 1/8 the >brain cells

1/8 the brain cells, 7/8 of the $$.

The suits are right this time
I.M. Anonymous @ 7/9/2002 11:37:35 PM #
They could've fallen for all the linux hype that was so "in" a couple years ago. They could've fallen for the European Symbian/Nokia hype. Instead they went out of their way to get the best technology by going to Be. We're talking about some of the smartest software engineers in the world that were rejected by everyone else in the industry-not for technical excellence-but because they were trying to compete with Microsoft on the desktop. The easy choice would be to go with something more "proven" (i.e status quo, low risk) but the fact that Palm picked Be really shows are committed they are to truly improving the Palm OS
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