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Rumor: HTC to Build Palm Windows Mobile Treo

Palm Treo 670 smartphone running windows mobile 2005According to a report from DigiTimes, the Chinese newspaper Commercial Times claims Taiwan-based High Tech Computer (HTC) will produce Palm's next generation Treo series smartphones including one using Microsoft's Windows Mobile operating system. Production is said to begin in the first quarter of next year.

The news follows last weeks posting of video of a supposed Palm Treo 670 running Windows Mobile 2005. That smartphone resembled two earlier rumored photos and reports from the spring of the unit that claimed it ran Windows Mobile.

Palm Treo 670 running Windows Mobile 2005HTC is currently the manufacturer of the Treo 650 smartphones as well as many other PDA's and phones that run Windows.

What is currently known about the Palm Treo 670 smartphone is that it features new EVDO wireless data support and a 1.3 megapixel camera. Engadget recently posted new photos of the device that clearly show the windows start and ok hardkeys. This new report could point towards a spring 2006 release timeframe.

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WinMob Treo = Eventual Death of PalmOS and Palm, Inc.?

Gekko @ 8/11/2005 3:50:35 PM # Q

*IF* the imminent realease of a WinMob Palm is TRUE -

1. Will it lead to the eventual end of any NEW PalmOS devices by any real licensee - including Palm?

2. Will it lead to the eventual death of Palm (the hardware company) in the long run?



RE: WinMob Treo = Eventual Death of PalmOS and Palm, Inc.?
ardiri @ 8/11/2005 4:04:19 PM # Q
1. Will it lead to the eventual end of any NEW PalmOS devices by any real licensee - including Palm?

no; i dont think so. i have been waiting for this to happen.

the hardware that windows mobile and palm os support have converged over the past few years - one could argue that even symbian is using the same hardware (ARM, color screen). the difference between the platforms are screen resolution, and the input mechanisms - at a hardware level.

software; is just software.

2. Will it lead to the eventual death of Palm (the hardware company) in the long run?

why would it lead to the eventual death of Palm? if anything; Palm, as a company are now supporting two software platforms - which, offer different functionality and as such definately appeal to seperate markets.

if anything; Palm doing a Palm OS and Windows Mobile device just expanded their market share - which, is a good thing. we have seen that the battle over the past few years has seen the market share equalize between the two software platforms.

the thing is; i bet this phone only has a 240x240 display; like the PPC-6700 devices that HTC are manufacturing (check engadget et al for these specs). the two devices dont vary much in regards to specifications. a Palm OS device still has the 320x320+ edge :P

---
Aaron Ardiri
PalmOS Certified Developer
aaron_ardiri@mobilewizardry.com
http://www.mobilewizardry.com/blog/ <-- check out my technology blog!

RE: WinMob Treo = Eventual Death of PalmOS and Palm, Inc.?
souterj @ 8/11/2005 4:05:36 PM # Q
Perhaps Palm are positioning themselves as a manufacturer that can offer handhelds irrespective of your OS preference.

If this is the case and they can manage to survive in the fierce WinMob market place - it might be a neat trick.

BUT - I think Palm need to focus on what you get in a 2005/2006 Palm PDA. I feel it should have excellent video codec support BUILT-IN for one. People just want to plop their video files on an SD card and play them, without all the painful transcoding that most Palm players currently need (assuming video footage is already at a sensible PDA-friendly resolution).

Also, isn't it about time that Palm encouraged/licensed a proper Flash player and PDF viewer (the official Adobe viewer is unforgivably crud, especially when used on higher-end Palms like the T3 - no 320x480 support).

Time moves on and so do people's needs, a flashy handheld with Personal Info Management apps that have barely changed in a decade don't cut it in late 2005. Palm need to re-evaluate what makes a gadget seem 'cool' to a wide spectrum of users and tap into that enthusiasm.

A Linux or WinMob OS handheld wont save Palm by itself - what is needed is the vision to bring more to the party, delivering a device that sets trends and excites its target audience like an iPod or a Blackberry.

I only planned to write 2 sentences - I must just have a lot of pent up frustration beginning to spew out about my favourite handheld platform and the uninspired way in which it has been steered the last few years.

Interested in everyone elses thoughts - this is a promising thread.

KultiVator

If the **** sticks... throw it!

A Mad But Focused Mind Let Loose On The Speedy Roads Of Greenest Rural Britain


RE: WinMob Treo = Eventual Death of PalmOS and Palm, Inc.?
Gekko @ 8/11/2005 4:15:01 PM # Q
my repost once again answers "why?" -

palm is in a catch 22. if they stick with just FrankenGarnet, they stay on a soon to be deserted island while the rest of the free world moves forward on the Windows Mobile Cruise Ship. They will be out there all alone on the island. Not to mention FrankenGarnet's instability/bugginess and limited frozen feature set.

if palm uses Windows Mobile, then they become just another low-margin commodity maker of WM smartphones. can they really compete in that market given the size, resources, and economies of scale of the competition? in my opinion - if palm chooses WM, they will lose their raison d'ętre. palmos was what made palm products unique - what set them apart.

i hear all this talk of 4% market share is good enough for apple - it will be good enough for palm. The market for PCs is a different animal than smartphones - so this is apples vs. oranges. 4% of the PC market or automobile market might be OK, but 4% of a niche market is not. especially if that's the only/few products that palm sells! stop using this analogy, apologists.

right now, palm has virtually 100% of the palmos smartphone market. how will palm function when they get X% of the WM market?

And does Palm really have the resources to offer *both* PalmOS and WinMob indefinitely? Is this really possible given development/marketing/distribution/support/partner-relations costs vs. finite resources?



Treo-looked PPC phone
murf @ 8/11/2005 4:15:34 PM # Q
I guess that phone won't be made by Palm. There is not brand name on the phone. That means some manufacturer will make Treo-like phone.

RE: WinMob Treo = Eventual Death of PalmOS and Palm, Inc.?
neuron @ 8/11/2005 4:16:31 PM # Q
Looks like the treo 670 is true.

BTW, the 240*240 is not a problem at all. I have used HW6515 for a few hours with serveral my favorite programs installed, all perfect. Those diehard POS users won't buy treo 670 at all even the resolution is VGA. 320*320 is impossible for wm5. 480*480 is OK, but this resolution will bring much more imcompatibilty problem than 240*240, also consuming more power. So. 240*240 is still the best choice for PPC treo so far. Of cource, 240*320 will be perfect if they implement.

RE: WinMob Treo = Eventual Death of PalmOS and Palm, Inc.?
JarJar @ 8/11/2005 4:19:21 PM # Q
As many users have already pointed out, in the short term this is good for Palm and expands their reach into two different markets.

In the long term, Palm doesn't have the resources to properly support two platforms (They can barely finish their products on time with just the Palm OS. This won't get better with multiple OS's)

Also, Palm can't compete in the WinMob arena because they can't compete with DELL et al. The Win market is all about commoditization, low-profit, high volume. DELL can purchase components at prices that Palm does not have access. Nothing can overcome this. DELL has long term relationships with both hardware and software (MS) that allows them special treatment that Palm cannot get.

RE: WinMob Treo = Eventual Death of PalmOS and Palm, Inc.?
ardiri @ 8/11/2005 4:21:22 PM # Q
Time moves on and so do people's needs, a flashy handheld with Personal Info Management apps that have barely changed in a decade don't cut it in late 2005. Palm need to re-evaluate what makes a gadget seem 'cool' to a wide spectrum of users and tap into that enthusiasm.

i think; Palm already has woken up and seen what they need to do.

the fact is, most Palm users wont touch a Windows Mobile based device - and, it works the same way around. Palm providing a Windows Mobile device doesn't hurt the Palm users - if anything, external support will most likely be done on the software side by PalmSource and Microsoft; remember Palm is a hardware provider.

Those diehard POS users won't buy treo 670 at all even the resolution is VGA.

exactly.

hear all this talk of 4% market share is good enough for apple

you need to ask yourself why apple are now lookin at x86 for their processor market. there are a lot of PC based people who will switch to mac osx - providing it is a usable interface. if the mac osx interface was implemented on any of the linux distributions - we would see a lot more people not using Windows. the problem is, providing the support that users need to make this change - apple can do this; an open source project cannot.

---
Aaron Ardiri
PalmOS Certified Developer
aaron_ardiri@mobilewizardry.com
http://www.mobilewizardry.com/blog/ <-- check out my technology blog!

RE: WinMob Treo = Eventual Death of PalmOS and Palm, Inc.?
souterj @ 8/11/2005 4:23:18 PM # Q
Too early to make such a judgement. Often early samples don't include branding.

But this clearly looks like the next Treo to me.


KultiVator

If the sh*t sticks... throw it!

How can I be a road-warrior when my PDA's weaponry is rusting?

RE: WinMob Treo = Eventual Death of PalmOS and Palm, Inc.?
neuron @ 8/11/2005 4:26:14 PM # Q
Just found SYWARE officially annouced they will support WM5 treo in the near future.

* * * * *

Get Ready for Palm’s “Treo” to Use Windows Mobile with SYWARE’s Mobile Database and Application Development Software…All the Advantages of Windows Mobile and Microsoft, Without the Need to Learn or Use Visual Basic

SYWARE announced that it will provide a specific help desk for Palm OS users who will need to consider transitioning field PDA applications with the expected eventual transition to Windows Mobile. The help desk will go into action as soon as Palm OS officially releases a “Treo” version with Windows Mobile. Many current users of Palm OS will need to start preparing to move their existing or future applications to this new platform to continue to enhance their business mobility. SYWARE’s Visual CE Mobile Database and Application Development product and its integrated products for wireless synchronization and remote printing will allow this to take place without needing to hire new programmers to learn and use Visual Basic. SYWARE requires no programming to develop robust PDA applications on Windows Mobile PDAs.

SYWARE’s President Sy Danberg stated “We are preparing to establish support for Palm OS users who may be thinking about a future transition to Windows Mobile. In preparation for this, we are developing a special pricing and support package to assist Palm OS users who may be in need of developing or transferring handheld applications to support their business needs. Many of our customers utilizing our products have implemented field applications 50 times faster than using Visual Basic where as still retaining the integration with other .NET products and the significant advantage of the Microsoft Platform.”

This news follows a previous announcement that an international panel of industry experts, sponsored by Microsoft Germany and Pocket PC Magazine Germany, presented SYWARE with a “Best Database Software Award 2004.” SYWARE allows users in a wide variety of market sectors to mobilize business information between the enterprise and the field to rapidly convert PC or paper-based processes into fully mobile applications that can be deployed on any Microsoft Windows Mobile Pocket PC or Windows CE device. Business or user-specific data can be downloaded, collected, displayed, modified and automatically synchronized. SYWARE enables users to create feature-rich, easy-to-use database applications without programming.

To learn more about SYWARE, visit www.syware.com

RE: WinMob Treo = Eventual Death of PalmOS and Palm, Inc.?
Gekko @ 8/11/2005 4:29:31 PM # Q

>Time moves on and so do people's needs, a flashy handheld with Personal Info Management apps that have barely changed in a decade don't cut it in late 2005. Palm need to re-evaluate what makes a gadget seem 'cool' to a wide spectrum of users and tap into that enthusiasm.

I think you make a great point. But some apologists say, "Garnet outta be good enough for anybody - at least until 2009."



RE: WinMob Treo = Eventual Death of PalmOS and Palm, Inc.?
hkklife @ 8/11/2005 4:30:40 PM # Q
240*240? Bah.
320*480 is the MINIMUM I will accept on ANY sort of movibe PDA-style device (smartphones included) nowadays priced over $200.

Otherwise, web browsing is an impossibly hopeless proposition. It's hard enough on 320*480--and exacerbated by the utter lack of a decent Palm OS WWW browser--and 320*320 is aggravatingly constrained. 240*240 would simply be nigh unusable. Though, I will confess that I've never actually used a WinMob "Square Screen" device.



RE: WinMob Treo = Eventual Death of PalmOS and Palm, Inc.?
ardiri @ 8/11/2005 4:36:35 PM # Q
Otherwise, web browsing is an impossibly hopeless proposition

this is why we need opera on palmos :)

http://www.opera.com/products/mobile/smallscreen/

they have some cool ideas about how to re-present a website on a small display - but, yes, in general; unless the sites are designed for handheld use; you probably want at least 640x480 or.. i would prefer 1024x768 minimum :P thats why i use my laptop/desktop for surfing.

---
Aaron Ardiri
PalmOS Certified Developer
aaron_ardiri@mobilewizardry.com
http://www.mobilewizardry.com/blog/ <-- check out my technology blog!

RE: WinMob Treo = Eventual Death of PalmOS and Palm, Inc.?
hkklife @ 8/11/2005 4:41:39 PM # Q
According to Brighthand and/or Jeff Kirvin, Opera will never appear on Palm-powered devices because it's not possible/they don't want it to/no one in the user base cares to see it (pick any number of the above excuses).

AGAIN, the utterly baffling complacency of the developer community in regards to POS is a baaaad omen for the future of the platform, kiddies.

It all began in '02/'03 when you had a bunch (but not TONS) of legacy apps that had seen frequent tweaking under OS 3/4.x not be updated at all for OS5...or barely be updated to be OS5-compliant but no enhancements such as BT capabilities, 320*320 etc. As OS 5.2 got inherently more feature-packed (320*480 support, for one) fewer and fewer apps were updated to take advantage of the latest'n greatest. Now you're seeing tons of apps that were updated in '02 or '03 that don't work properly with the new units' DIA/hard button layouts/"Treo-style" button navigation etc etc etc.

Are they riding out the Garnet wave and waiting for Cobalt with bated breath? Nope. They've either given up entirely (content to milk their existing wares for as long as humanly possible), switchd over to WinMob or cell phone development or just gone out of business entirely.

Face it folks, at best the Palm OS is going to be relegated to a niche in the marketplace. At worst it'll be assimilated and disappear entirely within two to three years. Think not much can happen in three years? Look where we were three years ago in the POS & WinMob camps and how things have flip-flopped since then).

RE: WinMob Treo = Eventual Death of PalmOS and Palm, Inc.?
ardiri @ 8/11/2005 4:53:31 PM # Q
Opera will never appear on Palm-powered devices because it's not possible/they don't want it to/no one in the user base cares to see it

well, if they dont think its possible - they should contact me. i would be willing to port opera to palm os. it definately is possible; hell, they just released a j2me version! (opera mini)

---
Aaron Ardiri
PalmOS Certified Developer
aaron_ardiri@mobilewizardry.com
http://www.mobilewizardry.com/blog/ <-- check out my technology blog!

Things haven't been "equalized" for a long time.
sr4 @ 8/11/2005 5:03:36 PM # Q
Many Palm users are still under the impression that things are "Equal", that the numbers are simply the split between two equally capable platforms, and that its all a question of taste.

In reality the split is about 63% vs 37%. POS is already a minority OS, and Palm selling a WM device will make it only worse.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Browser_Wars.png

This graph illustrates the browser wars, which MS eventually won. POS is about 1999 level, clearly in decline, but not moribund yet. Funny that it was about the same time that Netscape looked toward the Open Source Community to save it. Shades of Palm Linux there, isn't it. Then web pages started showing up saying "Designed for IE", and it was Game Over

Hudson: Well that's great, that's just f*ing great man. Now what the f* are we supposed to do? We're in some real pretty sh*t now man... That's it man, game over man, game over! What the f* are we gonna do now? What are we gonna do?
Burke: Maybe we could build a fire, sing a couple of songs, huh? Why don't we try that?

Time to build a fire.....

Surur

CIOs don't get fired for using MS products, says Palm CFO
sr4 @ 8/11/2005 6:13:49 PM # Q
A senior Palm executive says his company could benefit from building a mobile computing device that runs on the Windows operating system made by once-bitter rival Microsoft.

In an interview, Palm Chief Financial Officer Andrew Brown said that building a Treo that runs on the mobile version of Windows might help the company woo corporate customers who have been reticent to buy its Palm OS-based gadgets.


CIOs don't get fired for using Microsoft products," Brown said, though he did not say whether Palm has such a product in the works.

Palm's money man says there are benefits to offering a Windows Mobile-based Treo, but is stopping short of confirming the maker will do so.

Despite that shared heritage with PalmSource, Brown described Palm as neutral to the operating system its devices use--and the types of e-mail servers to which they connect.

"The fact is we are Switzerland, whether it be over the e-mail server or the OS," Brown told CNET News.com last week after a presentation to financial analysts at an RBC Capital Markets conference in San Francisco.

Brown's comments come just as enthusiast sites are buzzing with photos and videos purporting to be a next-generation Treo running Windows Mobile on a Verizon-branded device. The company has been studying other operating systems, including Windows Mobile, for some time.

Charles Golvin, an analyst with Forrester Research, said that if the photos of a Windows Treo product making the rounds are authentic, the product should be reasonably close to shipping to carriers and could be in consumers' hands by the end of this year.

http://news.com.com/Making+the+case...29076&subj=news

Is Colligan still going to stop this madness?

Surur

RE: WinMob Treo = Eventual Death of PalmOS and Palm, Inc.?
cervezas @ 8/11/2005 6:28:31 PM # Q
You know, I understand why people are anxious about the Palm platform, but all this drama is around the release of a Treo with Windows Mobile seems to be way overblown. A Windows version of the Treo will be good for Palm Inc, first of all. But if it sells well it will do so in the comparatively small US smartphone market, not in the much much bigger global market where Palm OS needs to succeed. In Asia Linux phones are taking over and in Europe nothing seems to be able to stop the advance of Symbian--certainly not Windows Mobile. Look at the numbers: Microsoft is losing not gaining ground to Symbian and Linux in the smartphone market.

And after you consider the global market remember that PalmSource is now playing to a device market that is an order of magnitude larger than the smartphone market it plays in now. If their feature phone strategy succeeds, Palm OS may very well be the smaller part of their business.

Hard as it may be for Americans to accept, the mobile platform battle must be fought and won in Asia, not America. And hard as it may be for PIC-dwellers to accept it's probably not going to be won just in the smartphone/PDA arena either. PalmSource was right to tie its fortunes to Linux and also was smart to go after the feature phone market where MS cannot follow. If they execute reasonably well they will have given Palm OS a strong position in Asia and that will give them the position they need to compete elsewhere.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com

RE: WinMob Treo = Eventual Death of PalmOS and Palm, Inc.?
bdholmes @ 8/11/2005 6:44:25 PM # Q
"Face it folks, at best the Palm OS is going to be relegated to a niche in the marketplace. At worst it'll be assimilated and disappear entirely within two to three years. Think not much can happen in three years? Look where we were three years ago in the POS & WinMob camps and how things have flip-flopped since then)."

Yep, three years ago the golden age of Palm was just coming to an end. For Palm's many customers who want a top notch personal organiser, Palm's last quality product was the M500. It was never updated. Instead of keeping the distinctive small form factor that was so successful, Palms became bigger and more power hungry with each new model and the differetiator between them and Windows devices - size and battery life, steadily dissappeared as unnecessary new features were added. Now what you are getting when you buy a new Palm is effectively a Windows Mobile emulator. It is no surprise to me that they have decided to end the charade and actually make the real thing in an upcoming product.

RE: WinMob Treo = Eventual Death of PalmOS and Palm, Inc.?
sr4 @ 8/11/2005 7:13:16 PM # Q
Whats the difference between the supposed "feature phones" and MS smartphones? MS PDA phones are actually very popular in the East, and their smartphones can be made cheap enough to be free on contract.

Palmsource may survive (but I don't think so) but they wont be making anything much related to Palm OS. In a feature phone with no access to user-installed apps the Protein API does not really matter, does it?

And if Palm only sells WM devices in two years, doe it really matter if Colligan is still in charge, and Jeff Hawkins is still around?

Currently, the only real OS with a mobile future is WM.

This of course excludes Linux or Symbian, but thats a battle for another day.

Surur

RE: WinMob Treo = Eventual Death of PalmOS and Palm, Inc.?
Gekko @ 8/11/2005 7:28:51 PM # Q

So now I'm in a conundrum. My mobile phone contract expires in November and I was planning on consolidating two devices into one and buying a Treo 650 (despite the tight 32MB RAM (~24 Usable)). At $400+, now I'm not sure if this is a wise investment given all this uncertainty. I want something that can take me into the future. I played briefly with the Samsung SCH-i730 with WM and it felt klunky. This sucks.



RE: WinMob Treo = Eventual Death of PalmOS and Palm, Inc.?
twrock @ 8/11/2005 7:39:18 PM # Q
ardiri: you need to ask yourself why apple are now lookin at x86 for their processor market. there are a lot of PC based people who will switch to mac osx - providing it is a usable interface.
I've seen similar statements made by others, but I still don't get it. Why is the switch to x86 going to specifically cause people to switch? My interest in the Mac is bases on OS, bundled apps, and elegance of hardware design. (I am toying with an old iBook at the moment.) Why should I care if the "guts" are built on the x86 line?

if the mac osx interface was implemented on any of the linux distributions - we would see a lot more people not using Windows.
Do you mean that if it was implemented on Linux instead of BSD then more people would switch? Are you talking about developers switching? Maybe I'm just being slow again. I don't get it.

I'm still waiting for the mythical "color HandEra."

RE: WinMob Treo = Eventual Death of PalmOS and Palm, Inc.?
sr4 @ 8/11/2005 7:42:34 PM # Q

There's a huge pile of WM devices coming to market soon. You should probably ignore any Wm2003SE devices, as they have phone functionality basically just tacked on to the WM OS, whereas WM5 was basically an integration of the WM smartphone OS and pocketpc's.

For the executive e-mail junkie, there's the HP 6715. Keyboard, WM 5, WIFI G, bluetooth, GPS, Edge, small, light, thinnish. 240x240 screen :(
For the IT geek (or head honcho), the HTC Universal. WIFI, bluetooth, 3G, keyboard, VGA screen, 1.3 MPixel camera.
For the ex-palm OS user, the WM Treo 670. Familiar form factor, keyboard, bluetooth, edge, can use small form factor SDIO WIFI card.240x240 screen
For everyone else, the HTC Apache. qvga screen, slide-out landscape keyboard, WIFI, bluetooth, evdo.
Motorola Q . Smartphone, qvga 320x240, keyboard, fashionable and thin.
Also the Eten M600 is coming, and I'm sure a few also which I forgot.

So, a much wider selection on the WM side than just the Treo on the Palm side. All push capable with an exchange server. All can use Skype. All have proper file systems. Comes with the bluetooth HID driver built-in, so should work with any bluetooth keyboard (and ? mouse)

The Dark Side is going to get seriously compelling.

RE: WinMob Treo = Eventual Death of PalmOS and Palm, Inc.?
VampireLestat @ 8/11/2005 7:48:38 PM # Q
Surur,

You are wrong. Palm OS over Linux has a big futur. You even admit it yourself at the end of your post when you list Linux and Symbian as another battle for another day.

Mark my words, if Palm and Palm Source stick to the plan and execute well on Palm Linux, you are going to see an avalanch of developer support; and THAT means great programs, and THAT means a stronger Palm economy. Also, being Linux, that will also mean more open source projects for Palm and more freeware. That alone will be a great reason for consumers to buy Palm OS over Linux devices. And if they want programs with that little extra edge, they can buy any of the 20 000+ ones available.

It's about to get very exciting in the Palm world again. I am however upset that the Treo 670 with WM will rain on the parade. Anyways, let's wait and see, maybe the 670 will never materialize. *knock on wood*

RE: WinMob Treo = Eventual Death of PalmOS and Palm, Inc.?
sr4 @ 8/11/2005 7:57:01 PM # Q

My only problem with your assessment is the 2 year gap in between. Like Gekko, people will be needing to upgrade before then, and there will not be anything compelling on the POS side. By the time the uber-Palm OS comes out it may very well be irrelevant, not have any mindshare and have all the dedicated developers moved on to other areas.

Like I said, how many people use Netscape browser these days? Answer 0.75% Is AOL making any money on their billion dollar investment? And even the open source Firefox will take many years to get close to displacing IE.

Its a question of time, and POS has basically run out of it.

Surur

RE: WinMob Treo = Eventual Death of PalmOS and Palm, Inc.?
Altema @ 8/11/2005 8:21:31 PM # Q
"For Palm's many customers who want a top notch personal organiser, Palm's last quality product was the M500."

Not too sure about that one. The M500 was basicaly a Palm V with extra ram and an SD slot if you look at it from a functional viewpoint. The M515 was the same size (few hairs thicker), had 64MB RAM, and could match the battery life if you used it like the M500 (without the backlight). But, you also had the option to use a decent backlight if needed. The M500 backlight was useless in low light conditions. I know, I owned one.

But this thread is not about former glories. I think Palm is looking at trying to capitalize on customers that appreciate the Treo hardware, but don't buy one because they prefer Windows Mobile. No, that's not illegal ;)

True, they may undermine POS slightly, but look at the scenarios:

No WM Treo: POS user buys Treo, unsatisfied WM user may or may not buy Treo, satisfied WM user does not buy Treo.

POS and WM Treo: POS user buys Treo, unsatisfied WM buys Treo of choice, satisfied WM user buys Treo.


RE: WinMob Treo = Eventual Death of PalmOS and Palm, Inc.?
VampireLestat @ 8/11/2005 8:38:54 PM # Q
I, all my friends and everyone where I work already uses FireFox. I am sure that trend is present worldwide.

The Netscape analogy is not a fair one. IE killed Netscape because MS made it part of the OS. Palm is not a single application, it is a whole OS.

When you really think about it, all it takes is a single hot device to change all of our analyses. The Tungsten X will have WiFi and will keep the T5's great design. If they add a few better things like a mic, a vibrating alarm, a pointier tipped stylus, and OLED screen etc, you will see people buy them en masse. I know I will.

RE: WinMob Treo = Eventual Death of PalmOS and Palm, Inc.?
sr4 @ 8/11/2005 8:50:27 PM # Q
Yet the upcoming Tungsten is not slated to have any of these things (accept maybe WIFI).

Most people feel Palm killed itself through slow development. They do not appear to be responding very aggressively to the threat, unless capitulating by adding WM5 IS an aggressive move.

Surur

RE: WinMob Treo = Eventual Death of PalmOS and Palm, Inc.?
VampireLestat @ 8/11/2005 9:05:31 PM # Q
Yep, you may be correct on the Tungsten X. The rumour pic of the TX shows that they didn't put in a LED and stuff, and its only 312mhz (that is going to be a killer for many T5 owners patiently waiting to upgrade --- sigh). The button color difference sucks. But this is just a prototype, let's hope they will ship a more complete product.

Palm is SO close to the perfect PDA. They need to throw in some fancy T3 style things on the T5. I truely hope someone over at Palm can see this and act quickly to improve the TX. Colligan said he was looking forward to reinvigorating the handheld line; well, the TX is part of the answer.

RE: WinMob Treo = Eventual Death of PalmOS and Palm, Inc.?
twrock @ 8/11/2005 10:08:38 PM # Q
When you really think about it, all it takes is a single hot device to change all of our analyses. The Tungsten X will have WiFi and will keep the T5's great design. If they add a few better things like a mic, a vibrating alarm, a pointier tipped stylus, and OLED screen etc, you will see people buy them en masse. I know I will.
I would buy one too. And I'd be so excited that I might even become an "early adopter" for the first time in my life. However, I fear even if the T7 arrives, Surur is right; it will lack the full feature set you mentioned. If that happens, then I really would wait for the unit to be heavily discounted before buying. There wouldn't be enough advantage over my current unit to pay top dollar for it.

I'm still waiting for the mythical "color HandEra."
RE: WinMob Treo = Eventual Death of PalmOS and Palm, Inc.?
Gekko @ 8/12/2005 12:05:43 AM # Q
GET OPERA BROWSER FOR PALM OS NOW!!!
gfunkmagic @ 8/12/2005 4:14:46 AM # Q
>>>>>According to Brighthand and/or Jeff Kirvin, Opera will never appear on Palm-powered devices because it's not possible..

Jees, where the hell have you people been!!! Opera recently released a java version of their mobile browser and alot of users have already gotten the Opera Mini midlet to work on the Treo!!

http://mytreo.net/forum/index.php/topic,18865.0.html

http://mytreo.net/downloads/details-838.html?Opera_Mini

It actually works pretty well on my Treo 650, although a native palmos version would be preferable... :)

--------------------
Gaurav

RE: WinMob Treo = Eventual Death of PalmOS and Palm, Inc.?
AdamaDBrown @ 8/12/2005 4:36:01 AM # Q
Aaron Ardiri wrote:
well, if they dont think its possible - they should contact me. i would be willing to port opera to palm os. it definately is possible; hell, they just released a j2me version! (opera mini)

Opera's always been more interested in the phone market than handhelds. They've ported to WM Smartphone, Symbian, and now J2ME, but never PocketPC or Palm. Keep up the pressure! We're not happy until we can have Opera on every mobile device we own! LEAVE NO SURVIVORS!

Altema wrote:
The M515 was the same size (few hairs thicker), had 64MB RAM,

Eh... I think you mean 16 MB. ;)

David Beers wrote:
PalmSource was right to tie its fortunes to Linux and also was smart to go after the feature phone market where MS cannot follow.

What do you call the free Windows Smartphone models with 64 MB memory, application expandability, music/video, etcetera? In any event, what does it matter of something with the name PalmSource survives selling Linux based phone software in China? The Palm OS as we know it will have ceased to exist. The only way that it retains any meaning is in handhelds and high-end smartphones like the Treo, and those are only possible in the more wealthy countries of North America and Europe. (Obvious exceptions of Japan, Taiwan, and S Korea, but their markets are so dense it's almost impossible to gain access.)

RE: WinMob Treo = Eventual Death of PalmOS and Palm, Inc.?
palmato @ 8/12/2005 5:14:09 AM # Q
The opera j2me browser is proxy based. All the formatting is done at opera servers. And that's why it fits into j2me phones which notoriously have problems with large, actually not small, applications.

--------------------------
Waiting for a TT successor
RE: WinMob Treo = Eventual Death of PalmOS and Palm, Inc.?
hkklife @ 8/16/2005 3:26:48 PM # Q
gfunk, my comments was posted (AFAIK) PRIOR to you or foo making the "announcement" of the Opera j2me browser running under POS. I don't consider that "real" support of POS. Besides, Opera making a formal announcement about supporting POS (or even PPC) would do wonders as far as placing a marketing spin on *someone* having faith in not only the Palm platform at this stage of the game but to PDA-based Smartphones in general!

I almost pulled my hair out today trying to access some imoprtant info and having Blazer 4 stalling and being so mind-numbingly slow on my T5.



RE: WinMob Treo = Eventual Death of PalmOS and Palm, Inc.?
sr4 @ 8/16/2005 3:45:51 PM # Q
Are you only saying that because you know Opera has announced native support for WM PDA's?

Screen shots of Opera for Windows Mobile Pocket PCs
http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=42332&highlight=

Surur

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Terrible terrible idea

T_W @ 8/11/2005 9:15:17 PM # Q
This is an *insane* decision. They want to compete against the cut-rate graybox PC manufacturers?

I mean what Microsoft competitor who surrendered has *ever* done well afterwoods?

This also has the great side effect of completely demotivating (if not kill off) the PalmOS ISV market.

If anyone from Palm is reading, you had better comfirm or deny this soon!

I guess another benefit of outsourcing all manufacturing to China is that all of your preproduction units and long term plans get leaked on the Internet months ahead of time.

RE: Terrible terrible idea
VampireLestat @ 8/11/2005 9:57:35 PM # Q
T W: I agree with you. It is an insane decision.

By the way, it is for all intents and purpose confirmed by Palm.

Breaking news

Published: August 11, 2005, 12:42 PM PDT
http://news.com.com/Making+the+case+for+Windows+on+Palm+devices/2100-1047_3-5829076.html

A senior Palm executive says his company could benefit from building a mobile computing device that runs on the Windows operating system made by once-bitter rival Microsoft.

In an interview, Palm Chief Financial Officer Andrew Brown said that building a Treo that runs on the mobile version of Windows might help the company woo corporate customers who have been reticent to buy its Palm OS-based gadgets.

RE: Terrible terrible idea
VampireLestat @ 8/11/2005 9:59:38 PM # Q
A friend just told me that if this Treo 670 is launched with WM, the first thing consumers will think is that Palm is admitting that "their" OS is inferior. And he is right.

Developers are not going to take this positively either.

I am not happy at all with these turn of events. BIG mistake by Palm in my opinion. They've made blunders before but this will be the biggest.

It has all the appearances of a panicked desperate decision.

They will try to mask it it with nice mumbo jumbo language that "consumers now have more choice", "carriers were demanding this", "we are OS agnostic", bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla

At the end of the day... you simply don't trust your product enough to assure your future prosperity. Rule #1 in economics... ENSURE CONFIDENCE IN THE ECONOMY.

RE: Terrible terrible idea
joad @ 8/11/2005 10:43:51 PM # Q
Well, now we know how Palm(One) dropped the ball on the upgrades for the Treo 650 after getting the 600 from Handspring... They were too busy figuring out the PR stunts and machinations in order to put Winmob onto their newly acquired hardware...

Oh well, now they can disappoint Windows addicts too with their weak hardware specs. Looks like Palm will dilute itself out of business, rather than make any bold moves to save itself. As the poster above said it - if they can't even get it together to release a debugged Treo 650, just imagine what a train wreck the WinMobile version will be.

..And if Winmobile 5 is like 4, 3, 2 and 1 (wince!)... then it's heading out of the station on 3 wheels already before Palm even touches it...

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