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Rumor: Video of a Treo 670 Running Windows Mobile

Rumor: Palm Treo 670 Running Windows MobileEngadget.com has posted three videos of a supposed Palm Treo 670 running the Windows Mobile 2005 operating system. The smartphone resembles two earlier rumored photos and reports of the unit that claimed it ran Windows Mobile.

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Catch 22

Gekko @ 8/5/2005 10:50:48 PM # Q
my repost but now even more relevant -

palm is in a catch 22. if they stick with just FrankenGarnet, they stay on a soon to be deserted island while the rest of the free world moves forward on the Windows Mobile Cruise Ship. They will be out there all alone on the island. Not to mention FrankenGarnet's instability/bugginess and limited frozen feature set.

if palm uses Windows Mobile, then they become just another low-margin commodity maker of WM smartphones. can they really compete in that market given the size, resources, and economies of scale of the competition? in my opinion - if palm chooses WM, they will lose their raison d'Ítre. palmos was what made palm products unique - what set them apart.

i hear all this talk of 4% market share is good enough for apple - it will be good enough for palm. The market for PCs is a different animal than smartphones - so this is apples vs. oranges. 4% of the PC market or automobile market might be OK, but 4% of a niche market is not. especially if that's the only/few products that palm sells! stop using this analogy, apologists.

right now, palm has virtually 100% of the palmos smartphone market. how will palm function when they get X% of the WM market?



RE: Catch 22
gfunkmagic @ 8/6/2005 1:21:50 AM # Q
Eh... believe or not, but the first next gen treo to arrive will probably be Cobalt imo...

I support http://Tapland.com/

--------------------
GNM

RE: Catch 22
hkklife @ 8/6/2005 9:34:56 AM # Q
I agree with Gfunk. I think Palm/P1's secretly been tweaking/funding Cobalt work so it's in a reasonably finished and usable state. They'll release it in a small and select number of devices (Two Treos, a LifeDrive or two and maybe a few Tungstens) over the next 18-24 months until PoL is finished.

So in '06 you'll have :

High-end devices: Cobalt
Mid and low end devices:Garnet

in '07:

High-end: PoL
Midrange: Cobalt (carryover models mostly)
Low-end: Garnet (think a Zire 33 type $100 job)



RE: Catch 22
cervezas @ 8/6/2005 11:04:38 AM # Q
hkklife wrote:
So in '06 you'll have :

High-end devices: Cobalt
Mid and low end devices:Garnet

in '07:

High-end: PoL
Midrange: Cobalt (carryover models mostly)
Low-end: Garnet (think a Zire 33 type $100 job)

You might be right, though I think we'll see a few Cobalt devices coming first from some other licensees.

PoL isn't necessarily going to be more "high end" than the Cobalt phones by the way, although it can definitely push that envelope. What's interesting to PalmSource about Linux is the way they can push a more powerful Palm OS down into some lower cost handsets that hit the market sweet spot as well as power up the high end for the early adopters.

The mistake with Cobalt was not anything about the OS per se, but failing to appreciate all the extra work that PalmSource and the licensees would have to do to create the drivers and system support software to interface a proprietary kernel with all the different chipsets and hardware the vendors wanted to use. Symbian and MS have the massive resources and engineering staff to go bottom-to-top, but PalmSource does not, which left a lot of heavy lifting to the licensees.

I'm not an "apologist" for PalmSource as TVoR likes to represent me. I just think its preferable to point to the actual facts about why Cobalt has been so slow to market than to invent or twist my own imagined ones. PalmSource squandered a lead and is in a tough spot now, no question. They needed to focus their energies sooner on their strengths: building powerful mobile software frameworks and user experience, not developing proprietary kernels and drivers. Having said that, Linux was the right decision and it's also attractive to the device vendors because of the open aspect and the freedom it will give them to create devices the way they want them (instead of the way Microsoft or Symbian wants them). Since PoL is basically Cobalt with a Linux kernel the work being done on it *may* even be breathing a bit of life into some Cobalt devices before the PoL devices hit the market: the migration path looks smooth, even if the driver issue is still a downer. We'll see.

At any rate, Linux (with or without Palm OS) is about to positively explode on mobile devices and will give MS and Symbian a big run for their money. Having the whole Palm OS application stack available on Linux would add even more momentum to that (apps are a major area where mobile Linux still falls short). If it weren't for this and the decisions PalmSource made in December we might very well have seen the end of Palm OS. As it stands, I think there's cause for hope.


David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com

RE: Catch 22
Foo Fighter @ 8/6/2005 2:16:09 PM # Q
>> "You might be right, though I think we'll see a few Cobalt devices coming first from some other licensees."

What licensees? Palm is the last consumer focussed license (and one of the last PERIOD) PalmSource licensee offering PalmOS devices. If Cobalt does appear from "other" licensees, it will have no impact on us because it won't be available here in the US or Europe. Perhaps one of the Asian vendors will pick it up, but there is no one left.


-------------------------------
Editor, http://Pocketfactory.com
Contributing Editor, http://digitalmediathoughts.com

Cutting through the B.S.
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 8/6/2005 6:58:08 PM # Q
You might be right, though I think we'll see a few Cobalt devices coming first from some other licensees.

What "other licensees", Beersy? Remember - a licensee loading a copy of Cobalt onto 20 beta test PDAs or smartphones doesn't count as "a few Cobalt devices coming".


I'm not an "apologist" for PalmSource as TVoR likes to represent me. I just think its preferable to point to the actual facts about why Cobalt has been so slow to market...

Beersy, you're one of the most blatant, boot-licking, brown-nosing apologists I've seen recently. Your recent performance in the (poor) Michael Mace interview thread at that other Palm site lead many to wonder if you were actually paid by Palm to Astroturf + "ride shotgun" for them. Fortunately Dianne Hackborn stepped in and caught herself up in her web of SPIN and excuses (again), showing readers what a pile of steaming dung Cobalt is (was?). It's amusing to see how Apologists and PalmSource employees both run and hide when the tough questions are asked. Suggestion: if you know you can't defend your position, either S T F U or else do like Jeff Kirvin does and hide out on a milquetoast fanboy site where they either delete or denigrate every post that speaks the (ugly) truth about the platform.

Without more honesty, Palm and PalmOS are DEAD.

By the way do you do coding for PPC/WinMob? Has your percent or volume of PalmOS business declined in the past year? Are you worried?


------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm Economy = Communismô
The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

RE: Catch 22
Rome @ 8/6/2005 7:42:32 PM # Q
Good post, David. Enjoyed the read.

RE: Catch 22
cervezas @ 8/6/2005 8:18:35 PM # Q
TVoR wrote:
By the way do you do coding for PPC/WinMob?

Yep. Used to be about half my consulting business.

Has your percent or volume of PalmOS business declined in the past year? Are you worried?

Nope, Palm OS has increased from two years ago relative to WM. There's also good demand for cross-platform WM and Palm. Most of my customers who have a preference prefer Palm OS but many think they need to keep their bases covered. Frankly, I've been surprised I *haven't* seen the Palm OS business decline relative to WM. I fully expected it, which is why I got into .NET and Java.

What I can tell you are the main reasons why my customers go for Palm over WM (other developers' mileage may vary):

1. Battery life is the big one. A lot of them need devices that will run hard all day or for multiple days on a charge. These guys aren't buying Tungstens, they're buying Symbols, Aceecas, and even monochrome Zires. I was even getting projects for customers using Handspring Visors as recently as a year ago. The Zen of Palm is alive and well in the enterprise.

2. A couple of clients went with Palm OS because they were the first to have integrated GPS (Garmin iQue 3600). Of course that advantage has been leveled recently.

3. Clients who want sales force applications prefer devices that are slick looking and easy to use. The Clies were popular and after those went away the Tungsten T3 has been more popular than the HPs and Dells. Interestingly, wireless stuff hasn't taken off as much for me as you might think on either Palm or WM. I've only had one wireless project for WM phones and not that many for Treos either. I expect that to change, but for now these high-end smartphones are too pricey and the need for over-the-air data sync is not business-critical for the most important apps.

4. A lot of folks have had bad experiences with Win CE that they haven't gotten over. Biggest complaints are lost data during synchronization, failure of ActiveSync to perform working backups/restores, and total power drain when the device is just sitting around for a few hours. The problems with frequent crashes are less common with WM than they used to be (and Palm OS crashes are more frequent) but crashes are less of a problem than data loss and a lot of these data loss problems still persist. Or the perception persists, which is the same thing in business.

As I'm sure you know, you guys who hang out here on PIC are not all that representative of the wider world of PDA and smart phone customers. Of course, I'm just one data point and my clients aren't necessarily typical either. But they have their perspective and it keeps me plenty busy.

So if I sometimes seem apologetic about Palm OS it's mainly because I can take my apologies to the bank. I also don't mind saying that I think I understand some of the technical and market aspects of the Cobalt debacle a bit better than you, TVoR, but that's not going to keep you from making the loudest noise on a forum like this one. Make your little posts if it feels good to you. If I have time to read them after the bank I may respond from time to time. ;-)


David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com

RE: Catch 22
cervezas @ 8/6/2005 9:27:35 PM # Q
FooFighter wrote:
What licensees? Palm is the last consumer focussed license (and one of the last PERIOD) PalmSource licensee offering PalmOS devices. If Cobalt does appear from "other" licensees, it will have no impact on us because it won't be available here in the US or Europe. Perhaps one of the Asian vendors will pick it up, but there is no one left.

Palm is far and away the largest consumer focused license today, but there are plenty of other consumer licensees. Most of them sell in the larger (and cheaper) Asian market but that will change as the US catches up in its smartphone adoption, which is happening quickly now. LG is the big one to watch since they're the new one on board, of course, but GSPDA has announced it will release a Cobalt phone in Q4, as has Oswin. There are a handful of other licensees that keep renewing and I have to think that some of them have plans: Kyocera, Samsung, Lenovo. Kyocera did very well with the 7135. FWIW, you can add up all the Microsoft Smartphones sold to date and they still won't touch the sales of the Kyocera 7135.

I know none of these account for a lot of revenue to PalmSource right now, but my statement was that I think we will see a few Cobalt devices from some of them before Palm OS for Linux comes out, not that we see them now. How successful they will be, I really have no idea. Obviously, PalmSource is banking on Linux right now, not Cobalt.


David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com

RE: Catch Beers, Kirvin, Hackborn = Lucky Pierre
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 8/6/2005 9:44:47 PM # Q
Of course, I'm just one data point and my clients aren't necessarily typical either.

Interesting hearing your experience, Beersy. Really. I'm surprised your PalmOS business increased vs. 2 years ago (but did it decline vs. last year?), but as you admit, you're an n = 1. In my field, Palm is starting to get its a$$ spanked, partly because of their decision to ignore Wi-Fi, leaving the decrepit Tungsten C alone to battle against a dozen dual wireless PPC models. The other reason for the shift is that Palm no longer has a significant software advantage over WinMob, so individuals and companies are free to choose the best HARDWARE for their money. If Microsoft or a big software company decides to market StyleTap Platform aggressively, Palm's headaches will only worsen. Symbol has had the vertical market almost all to themselves, but I had hoped they would have put in a few more features to take up the slack when those poor, naÔve yokels at HandEra were squeezed out of the market by Palm a few years ago.

So if I sometimes seem apologetic about Palm OS it's mainly because I can take my apologies to the bank.

We figured you were defensive for a reason. No one would say the things you've said unless there was money involved. ;-O

I also don't mind saying that I think I understand some of the technical and market aspects of the Cobalt debacle a bit better than you, TVoR

You're entitled to your opinion. (Don't you EVER get tired of being wrong?) Have you used a Cobalt device in REAL LIFE for an extended period of time, Beersy? If you had, you would realize Cobalt is Crap that is not worthy of the risks and demands it places upon hardware manufacturers and developers.

PalmSource to hardware makers: "Can you please install our buggy, slow, underdeveloped beta OS (that lacks any apps that will actually benefit from the OS) on your brand spankin' new PDA that your company is depending on to stave off bankruptcy?"

Hardware makers: "Go to Hell!"

PalmSource: "Awwwwwwwww! How about if we make it look pretty?"

Hardware makers: "Go to Hell!"


- Meanwhile....

PalmSource to developers: "Can you please rewrite your applications to take advantage of our our buggy, slow, underdeveloped beta OS (that lacks any hardware that will actually run you recompiled apps) even though this won't bring even an extra dime into your company?"

Developers: "Go to Hell!"

PalmSource to developers: "Pleeeeeeeeeeeeese? Pretty Pleeeeeeeeeeeeeese? And we're sorry your apps keep breaking because elegant PalmOS has gradually turned into kludgy, hacked-up FrankenPalmOS because we were too lazy to properly fix it and advise you of all of the sloppy things we (and our buddies at pa1mOne) have done to it over the years!"

Developers: "Go to Hell!"

Make your little posts if it feels good to you. If I have time to read them after the bank I may respond from time to time. ;-)

That's big of you, Beersy. I hope you soon decide to switch to coding for PalmOS full time. You deserve what that will bring you. Really.

See you at the Ocktoberfest PalmSource developer conference in Munich this September.

Your pal,
TVoR




------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm Economy = Communismô
The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

RE: Catch 22
cervezas @ 8/6/2005 9:51:09 PM # Q
PiTech is another Palm licensee to watch. The Asians have considered the US smartphone market to be saturated for the last two years, but that's changing.


David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com

RE: Catch 22
AdamaDBrown @ 8/6/2005 10:25:25 PM # Q
GSPDA and Oswin are the same thing--they're both part of the same parent company. Kyocera, Samsung, and Lenovo have all either left the market or dropped PalmOS. Kyocera never even produced a single unit running OS 5, let alone Cobalt. And actually, no, the 7135 did very marginally. It was late, and underpowered compared to the Treo 600 which came out around the same time. Windows based smartphones sell a couple of million units a year, the 7135 was in the tens of thousands.

RE: Catch 22
sr4 @ 8/6/2005 10:55:56 PM # Q
FWIW, you can add up all the Microsoft Smartphones sold to date and they still won't touch the sales of the Kyocera 7135.

I find this seriously hard to believe.

Surur

RE: Catch 670, 700, 69...
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 8/6/2005 10:58:22 PM # Q
GSPDA and Oswin are the same thing--they're both part of the same parent company. Kyocera, Samsung, and Lenovo have all either left the market or dropped PalmOS. Kyocera never even produced a single unit running OS 5, let alone Cobalt. And actually, no, the 7135 did very marginally. It was late, and underpowered compared to the Treo 600 which came out around the same time. Windows based smartphones sell a couple of million units a year, the 7135 was in the tens of thousands.


Let's not go destroying Beersy's fantasy by introducing a few facts, OK?

Someone else (I think it was a Palm exec? I can't remember) recently claimed that the 7135 sold more than all Windows Smartphones combined, so Beersy's probably parrotting them. No proof, but if someone said it, it must be true - no matter how unlikely it is to have happened. Next thing you know, the "Legend of the Kyocera 7135" is born. "Yep. my sister's next door neighbor's cousin's barber's mother's florist's stepdaughter's girlfriend once saw a Kyocera 7135 kill a man with its bare hands. Then it ate him. Raw. Yep. Don't ever mess with a Kyocera 7135."

He's probably thinking of the 6035 (because I doubt more than 10 people actually bought that Qualcomm/Kyocera brickphone, the PDQ!) While I'm sure the 6035 did OK, do we REALLY believe it sold in the MILLIONS from 2001 - 2003? Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm? Beersy, Beersy, Beersy.

But Samsung will be back soon - mark my words. LiveFaith even posted a spy photo of their upcoming model today:

http://www.churchoflivingfaith.com/images/samsungi750.JPG

http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8002#110366


I don't care what you say, Mr. Brown. I heard David Nagel and Michael Mace promised us a dozen new phones for 2005 (just ask Mike Cane if you don't believe me!) so they must all be coming Real Soon Now. 2 or 3 per month at least!

Beersy's pal,
TVoR


------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm Economy = Communismô
The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

RE: Catch 22
svrontis @ 8/6/2005 11:07:02 PM # Q
So let's do a little poll here - how many of the Whiners will be buying a Treo which 'runs' WinMob 5.0?

RE: Catch 22
sr4 @ 8/6/2005 11:11:52 PM # Q
I may get it for my wife, but 240x240 just does not do it. I want VGA, 3G, WIFI, 128MB ram

I'm getting the HTC Universal.

Surur

RE: Catch 22
svrontis @ 8/7/2005 12:02:14 AM # Q
So if you are not going to get one, why all the gleeful posts (both here and over at ppcthoughts.com)?

RE: Catch 22
cervezas @ 8/7/2005 1:36:00 AM # Q
FWIW, you can add up all the Microsoft Smartphones sold to date and they still won't touch the sales of the Kyocera 7135.

I find this seriously hard to believe.

Frankly it sounded like a stretch to me when I heard it in one of the DevCon presentations. But bear in mind they were probably talking about MS "Smartphone OS" not "Pocket PC Phone Edition".

Anyway I don't have any great inside information about upcoming Cobalt phones, but I did talk with John Cook, PSRC's Director of Product Marketing last week and heard him refer yet again to "several" Cobalt devices that are in the pipeline. So if you don't like the odds that Kyocera or Samsung or whoever are producing these I'll leave it up to you who the licensees might be. PalmSource has already been seriously burned by vendors who made enthusiastic promises and then changed their plans so I don't personally believe he would say this now if he weren't pretty damned sure it's really happening. Groan if you want, but for my part I believe him.

And don't misrepresent me: I have no idea what Cobalt is going to be like on a real device. The Oswin phone at DevCon was very beta. I didn't notice any problem with it in the 5 minutes I messed around with it but I've heard others say it is slow. Garnet ran slow on beta and lab hardware, too, so who knows at this point? All I know is that it looks very good in the simulator and on paper and that there were engineers that I respect a lot working on it. I'll withhold judgement until I see it on a real device along with the rest of you.

What PalmSource does admit, is that PalmSource and the Cobalt licensees have had a bad time with developing drivers in a timely manner--all the software that interfaces the hardware elements to the system. Time to market is really critical for phone development to be successful and they are fairly up-front now that they didn't have the engineering resources of MS or Symbian to develop phone systems top to bottom (including the drivers) in the timeline they hoped, leaving the licensees with a lot to do. Having a killer proprietary kernel with the most incredible framework and application stack on it does not get a phone to market until you have drivers for the chipsets, modems, screens... all the hardware that works with your proprietary system. That's a big part of why PalmSource has turned to Linux: so they don't have to develop and maintain the whole kernel and all the drivers and they can concentrate on the middleware framework and applications that are what make Palm OS what it is. (The demand for an open platform with more flexibility than Symbian or WM is the other big reason.)

You don't have to cast about for explanations for why Cobalt has been slow to market like TVoR tries to do. They've been telling us in various ways ever since the Linux announcement in December. But there's also a difference between "slow to market" and "no to market". I don't think I'm reading into things or being really speculative to say that there will be Cobalt devices coming on the market, whether they come from Palm Inc or some other licensee(s).


David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com

RE: Catch 22
twrock @ 8/7/2005 3:12:44 AM # Q
Sheesh David, where do you get off giving such calm, adult-like answers to the childish baiting that goes on here? ;-)

Fortunately "you're an n = 1," so we can discount whatever you have to say. But that other guy! Wow, he's like an n = ..., you know an n = ..., well, ... what I mean is ... , his n = 1 is WAY bigger than your n = 1!

Enjoy.

I'm still waiting for the mythical "color HandEra."

RE: Catch 22
svrontis @ 8/7/2005 4:12:18 AM # Q
> I find this seriously hard to believe.

Why, because Ed Hansberry hasn't told you to believe it yet?

RE: Catch 22
svrontis @ 8/7/2005 4:15:57 AM # Q
> my repost but now even more relevant -

Except you tried to do an industry analysis without taking into account what the competition are doing.

Why don't you apply the same reasoning to poor old HP?

The message would be something like this - HP is faced with cost-cutting pressures and declining sales, in the meantime, Palm relentlessly produces popular devices which consistently undercut HP's pricing. If HP tries to focus on high-end devices, will it have sufficient R&D to 'keep up with the Joneses' in terms of the latest feature set? Who knows (but it seems unlikely to me). If they try to produce less feature-rich devices, they run into little old Palm, who will undercut them every time.

Sony faced this same dilemma.

RE: Catch 22
mikecane @ 8/7/2005 10:19:20 AM # Q
>>>In my field,

In your field. Right. That's a laugh.

And stop trotting out my name and others to give your cheap little ****e of a self some sheen of legitimacy, you bastard.

Palm Apologists' Last Stand: Beersy, Kirvin, svrontis
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 8/7/2005 2:10:43 PM # Q
>>>FWIW, you can add up all the Microsoft Smartphones sold to date and they still won't touch the sales of the Kyocera 7135.

>I find this seriously hard to believe.

Frankly it sounded like a stretch to me when I heard it in one of the DevCon presentations. But bear in mind they were probably talking about MS "Smartphone OS" not "Pocket PC Phone Edition".

If you knew it was B.S. why even say it? Were you that desperate to try to give creedence to your argument that you're willing to post blatant lies? How sad.

Anyway I don't have any great inside information about upcoming Cobalt phones, but I did talk with John Cook, PSRC's Director of Product Marketing last week and heard him refer yet again to "several" Cobalt devices that are in the pipeline. So if you don't like the odds that Kyocera or Samsung or whoever are producing these I'll leave it up to you who the licensees might be. PalmSource has already been seriously burned by vendors who made enthusiastic promises and then changed their plans so I don't personally believe he would say this now if he weren't pretty damned sure it's really happening. Groan if you want, but for my part I believe him.

I think (at least) one of you is taking liberties with the truth. Unless "in the pipeline" can refer to someone in the company having once made a sketch of a Cobalt phone on a c0cktail napkin. It's partly because of B.S. like this (along with rapidly declining QA) that the Palm companies have lost their reputation in the industry.

And don't misrepresent me: I have no idea what Cobalt is going to be like on a real device. The Oswin phone at DevCon was very beta. I didn't notice any problem with it in the 5 minutes I messed around with it but I've heard others say it is slow. Garnet ran slow on beta and lab hardware, too, so who knows at this point? All I know is that it looks very good in the simulator and on paper and that there were engineers that I respect a lot working on it. I'll withhold judgement until I see it on a real device along with the rest of you.

"All I know is that it looks very good in the simulator and on paper and that there were engineers that I respect a lot working on it." Wow. In that case it must be good. Beersy, that's the most pathetic defense of Cobalt I've seen in a while. I think you left out "and 'Cobalt' is a really kewl name" . I've spoken to a few engineers with extensive experience with Cobalt running on REAL devices. They all say it is pure crap. Of course, you can Palm Apologize this away by saying that's because the Oswin phone is "very beta". And I suppose the Tungsten 3 sleds running Cobalt were also "very beta". You've become as predictable as Kirvin, Beersy. You disappoint me.

What PalmSource does admit, is that PalmSource and the Cobalt licensees have had a bad time with developing drivers in a timely manner--all the software that interfaces the hardware elements to the system. Time to market is really critical for phone development to be successful and they are fairly up-front now that they didn't have the engineering resources of MS or Symbian to develop phone systems top to bottom (including the drivers) in the timeline they hoped, leaving the licensees with a lot to do. Having a killer proprietary kernel with the most incredible framework and application stack on it does not get a phone to market until you have drivers for the chipsets, modems, screens... all the hardware that works with your proprietary system. That's a big part of why PalmSource has turned to Linux: so they don't have to develop and maintain the whole kernel and all the drivers and they can concentrate on the middleware framework and applications that are what make Palm OS what it is. (The demand for an open platform with more flexibility than Symbian or WM is the other big reason.)

You don't have to cast about for explanations for why Cobalt has been slow to market like TVoR tries to do. They've been telling us in various ways ever since the Linux announcement in December. But there's also a difference between "slow to market" and "no to market". I don't think I'm reading into things or being really speculative to say that there will be Cobalt devices coming on the market, whether they come from Palm Inc or some other licensee(s).

Beersy, I've been saying for years that Cobalt was a bad decision and that a Unix-based kernel should have been used (for reasons obvious to everyone except PalmSource/Palm). I've also posted why Cobalt was delayed (when PalmSource was being less than honest about its state of development). I've also said why Cobalt was rejected, what its weaknesses are and how it can NEVER do what was needed from a next-generation OS. In my posts I've "encouraged" PalmSource employees like the wonderful (really) Ms. Hackborn to try to be truthful with readers about what was wrong with Cobalt. In a roundabout way, eventually many of the problems I have spoken of have been admitted. Finally, people using Cobalt on a daily basis have ALL said it's Not Ready For Prime Time. Do you really believe we're soon suddenly going to see a flood of Cobalt smartphones being released over the next few months? Please. Try to THINK before you post next time. And enough with the parrotting* of Palm/PalmSource employees, already. They've proved repeatedly that what they say can't be trusted. (*I think the B.S. you quoted was from one of the speeches on Tuesday at DevCon a few months ago.)

TVoR



------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm Economy = Communismô
The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

Show me the Proof or stop the BS!!!!!!!!!!
gfunkmagic @ 8/7/2005 2:18:44 PM # Q
>>>>> Kyocera, Samsung, and Lenovo have all either left the market or dropped PalmOS...

Gawd, I'm sooo tired of people making statements like that when THERE IS NO PROOF to back it up. Please provide definitive links proving that these companies have dropped their PalmOS lisences, otherwise stop the misinformation...

--------------------
Gaurav

Dumb and Dumber
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 8/7/2005 3:18:24 PM # Q
Gawd, I'm sooo tired of people making statements like that when THERE IS NO PROOF to back it up. Please provide definitive links proving that these companies have dropped their PalmOS lisences, otherwise stop the misinformation...

Gawd, I'm sooo tired of dumba$$es that are too clueless to read between the lines. Company X licenses PalmOS for 5 years. After two or three years they cease production of PalmOS devices. PalmOS is now in turmoil, is relatively primitive compared to its competition, and will not be able to fix these deficiencies for at least two YEARS.

The logical conclusion is:
a) Company X is no longer interested in PalmOS
b) Company X is no longer interested in PDAs
c) Company X is planning to make a dramatic, triumphant return to the market with a powerful new lineup of fully developed, bug free, high quality devices Real Soon Now.

Guess which is the dumba$$ answer?



------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm Economy = Communismô
The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

Dumb and VoR
rcartwright @ 8/7/2005 3:44:42 PM # Q
VoR,

You missed d) Major multinational tech companies don't feel compelled to reveal their planning in a very competitive market to a pompus, sophmoric, know it all who won't even post under his/her/its own name.

"Many men stumble across the truth, but most manage to pick themselves up
and continue as if nothing had happened."
- Winston Churchill

RE: Catch 22
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 8/7/2005 5:02:42 PM # Q
So I'll put you down a choosing "c", Cartwright.

I choose "a".

Thanks for contributing, though.


------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm Economy = Communismô
The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

RE: Catch 22
AdamaDBrown @ 8/7/2005 5:45:44 PM # Q
Kyocera hasn't released anything in almost three years. Lenovo and Samsung haven't released anything based on PalmOS in over two years. You really think these companies are still in the market? Not even close.

RE: Catch 22
svrontis @ 8/7/2005 8:57:56 PM # Q
Foo, please don't take this the wrong way, but:

1. You seem to have a very keen interest in a WinCE Treo (at least you were pushing this idea in one of your articles recently on pocketfactory.com); and

2. You have a demonstrated ability to produce convincing videos of pdas in use (remember the famous LifeDrive videos?).

Putting 1 and 2 together, is it possible that you were behind the creation of these videos? Please confirm or deny.

By the way, has anyone checked the FCC's website for this Treo 670/700/whatever?

Anyone heard from Mike Cane recently?
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 8/25/2005 10:39:10 PM # Q
Is he OK? (Seriously.)

Ryan?


------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm Economy = Communismô
The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

RE: Catch 22
E Ben G @ 8/26/2005 12:36:59 AM # Q
You know, I can't believe I'm saying this, but I actually miss that POS.

(Pun intended).

Where is MC? MC...you OK?

Anyone heard from Mike Cane recently?
E Ben G @ 8/26/2005 12:49:05 AM # Q
Yo dog,

This post is simply and unapologetically for no other purpose than to give TVoR's subject-line a repeat on the '30 recent posts' list.

Mike Cane...come on man... what's up??? Show us some love.

RE: MC
twrock @ 8/27/2005 1:44:03 AM # Q
He's out there, just not here. It's not too hard to find him if you just look a little.

I'm still waiting for the mythical "color HandEra."
Reply to this comment

Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha. Ha?

The_Voice_of_Reason @ 8/5/2005 10:50:23 PM # Q
Like I've said before, Palm needs a Windows Mobile Treo (will generate HUGE sales) but a WinMob Treo is the equivalent of a TROJAN HORSE. It's the kiss of death for the PalmOS platform. Adios PalmOS. We hardly knew ya.

TVoR


------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm Economy = Communismô
The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

RE: Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha. Ha?
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 8/5/2005 10:59:56 PM # Q
By the way, I can't wait to hear the reaction of the dumba$$ Palm Apologists when this hits the proverbial fan. It's gonna get ugly. Real ugly.

Unfortunately, Cobalt's failure ultimately has triggered the demise of the PalmOS platform. Sony understandably left (they were expected to have debuted a couple of Cobalt-powered multimedia powerhouses in 2005), and now the inability of Cobalt to delive on its promise to provide a STABLE, "pseudomultitasking" environment means Palm has no other alternative but to get in bed with Microsoft. And we all know what happens to everyone that gets into bed with Microsoft... Get the lube out, Sonny!

It's sad to see that in the end, Windows didn't beat Palm - Palm beat Palm.

TVoR


------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm Economy = Communismô
The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

RE: Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha. Ha?
E Ben G @ 8/5/2005 11:30:46 PM # Q
This is really just what Palm has planned all along. Come on people. A WM5 palm is 'all we really need'. Palm wins again, as always.

Right...

RE: Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha. Ha?
treo007 @ 8/5/2005 11:34:46 PM # Q
Further evidence that the majority of regular posters here are the most cynical bunch alive (memo to you all by the way, stop confusing cynicism with cleverness).

Anyway, what keeps getting lost in the number of discussions going on at various sites right now is the second half of the rumor: They're also going to release a Cobalt model. If the WM Treo is real, the Cobalt Treo may very well be too.

This is a win/win for Palm. They can sell to Palm AND MS users. The simple math: it means more sales.

For Palm Source, it's probably neglible. My guess is that few WM users buy the Treo because they've just got to have the hardware. If anything, it might even point out the failings of the WM OS versus something like Cobalt (assuming it delivers). And if it doesn't, who cares. I'd love an EV-DO, Cobalt powered, new model Treo.

RE: Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha. Ha?
legodude522 @ 8/5/2005 11:40:20 PM # Q
No comment.

Palm m125 December 25, 2003 to March 24 2004 > palmOne Zire 71 March 24, 2004 to March 31, 2005. Tapwave Zodiac 1 April 18, 2005 to present.
RE: Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha. Ha?
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 8/5/2005 11:41:59 PM # Q
This is really just what Palm has planned all along. Come on people. A WM5 palm is 'all we really need'. Palm wins again, as always.

Right...

If you were in charge of Palm what other option would you choose? There is none. Windows Mobile is hot, Treo is hot, most of your profits come from Treo sales, and your current OS is already obsolete with no replacement expected for a couple years.

Palm is wise to "take the money and run". Sure, once other Windows Mobile licensees start producing better hardware than the Treo, Palm is totally fcuked, but Palm should be able to milk at least another year out of profits out of the current Treo design.

Then they can gradually fade away, Netscape-style, only to cash in by suing Microsoft in 5 years. Ka-Ching!




------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------

The Palm Economy = Communismô
The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038

RE: Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha. Ha?
wannitnow @ 8/6/2005 1:02:11 AM # Q
I don't know if others feel the same: I have a Treo and a Axim. I switched over when nothing was coming from PALM. The Axim was fun to have. BUT it was much better for everything EXCEPT the PIMS... Can't trust a WM with all those important data at all! For someone who really do need the PDA for important stuff, they wouldn't trust a WM device - don't think they can correct those issues with WM5 either... So for now, I would rather stick with my trusted Treo600.

PS: Having said that if WM can be better in handling PIMS, my 5 year son is having the Treo...

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