Comments on: Palm Says Sept 12th Announcement Is Not Centro

Palm's Stephanie Richardson has added a new post to the official Palm blog, stating that next week's September 12th European announcement will not be for the Palm Centro. Last week a few of Palm's European website put up a teaser page that hints at a upcoming new Palm smartphone announcement.

Sources have told PalmInfocenter that the event will include the launch of a new Windows Mobile powered smartphone. In addition, the device will likely be Palm's first non-touchscreen device running Windows Mobile Standard (formerly Smartphone edition). Blurry shots of this device bearing Vodafone branding were first leaked back in June.

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Has there been a lot of buzz about this?

SeldomVisitor @ 9/7/2007 2:27:01 PM # Q
Looking around here on PiC I'd have to say...

But, in any case, PALM thinks so!

-- http://blog.palm.com/palm/2007/09/its-a-bird-its-.html

RE: Has there been a lot of buzz about this?
sgingras @ 9/7/2007 2:48:03 PM # Q
Nice find...and very interesting. Summary - A Palm employee on the official Palm blog states that the device that they will present in Europe on the 12th will NOT be the Centro.

I have seen other rumors that claim that Palm is much further along with their Linux-based phone than originally estimated...helped by external contractors (Wind River?). My money is on a WM6 GSM device in Europe next week, but it would be very nice to see the first Linux-based Palm on the street instead.

RE: Has there been a lot of buzz about this?
SeldomVisitor @ 9/7/2007 2:52:01 PM # Q
I don't think anything Linux will be coming til next year - the CEO has repeatedly said so and he =JUST= said they were cancelling their Foleo so they could concentrate on the new platform.

I just don't see it happening.[and, since the CEO =did= say "no Linux smartphone til calendar 2008" I believe he HAS to say something like "Well, maybe there is!" otherwise risk good ol' lawsuits about misleading the public etc etc etc.

Reply to this comment

Same device as Centro?

SeldomVisitor @ 9/7/2007 2:55:12 PM # Q
PALM has said, maybemore than once, that they were going to do something about standardizing on hardware for their two OSes...maybe this device, though not a "Centro", =is= the same hardware (albeit different radio?).

RE: Same device as Centro?
hkklife @ 9/7/2007 3:42:50 PM # Q
I think *THIS* device (that is, a lower-end Windows Mobile Standard-powered, non-touchscreen GSM smartphone) will be similar but not identical to the black Centro running Garnet on Sprint we've seen recently.

I would not be surprised to see the CDMA/Garnet Centro having slightly lesser specs in some key areas (lower resolution camera, physically smaller LCD but with more pixels, smaller keyboard, slower CPU or less RAM, and perhaps a fixed battery) than this similar but not quite identical GSM WM sister device. Microsoft's licensing costs are another reason this device could/will end up costing more.

For example, Palm could have A2DP on this device and tout that as a higher-end feature to justify the extra cost. The Garnet-based device, primarily due to OS limitations, could be offered at a lower price point under the branding of a "Centro" value line.

SV;

Remember, if this thing is sporting a 320x240 LCD as it clearly appears to then it will HAVE to differ in at least LCD & radio from an equivalent Palm OS CDMA device. The Sprint Centro images have clearly shown it to have the standard 320x320 LCD seen on every POS Treo since the 650.

Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5-->TX-->Treo 700P

RE: Same device as Centro?
SeldomVisitor @ 9/7/2007 3:48:55 PM # Q
Yeah, I can believe anything - I admittedly have not paid too much atttention to the Centro et al so know almost nothing about them - see the first comment!

RE: Same device as Centro?
hkklife @ 9/7/2007 3:54:47 PM # Q
Let me clarify my comments--the Centro appears to have a 320x320 LCD, which is the same resolution used on every POS Treo from the 650 onward. The Centro's LCD does appear (and has been reported to be by at least one user) physically smaller than any current Treo's screen.

Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5-->TX-->Treo 700P
RE: Same device as Centro?
joad @ 9/7/2007 5:05:56 PM # Q
"The Centro's LCD does appear (and has been reported to be by at least one user) physically smaller than any current Treo's screen."

Well, it's about time. We had to wait until release of the Treo 680 & 755 for the shorter battery life we were all clamoring for. Now it looks like Palm is set to *finally* shrink that HUGE screen we've had to tolerate on all Treo models.

Of all the things to "fix" on newer models, I'm continually shocked at where Palm's attention goes. Their long distracted walk through the mulberry patch pushing and now withdrawing the Fooleo is another example of diluting their strengths.

Meanwhile, Apple's already announced a PDA with a LARGER screen than the Treo... instead of "Touch" they ought to call it "Newton's Revenge." If they can add a keyboard and/or Graffiti ONE, removable battery and SD card and a PalmOS emulator to their line then the game is likely up for Palm - they can go into the business dumping the demo Fooleos.

|
**Another vote for a >100MB RAM Treo**

RE: Same device as Centro?
hkklife @ 9/7/2007 5:57:03 PM # Q
Palm has a wonderful way of releasing downgraded devices that often make their predecessors look better in comparison.

A few examples over the years:

1. People complained that the m100 series was under-specc'd, ugly, and had a tiny screen. Palm retaliated by releasing the original Zire and Zire 22 that somehow managed to be even uglier, less usable, and traded a few improved specs (newer OS, USB, li-ion battery) for less RAM, no backlight, no cradle, and 2 fewer hard buttons.

2. People complained the T3 was a solid handheld but needed more RAM and a solid design without the slider. Palm released the T5 which brought a slightly faster CPU, larger battery, and 256mb of onboard flash to the table. Unfortunatey the T5 was more sluggish (NVFS), flakier, cheaply constructed, omitted a cradle from the package and removed the charge LED, vibrate alarm, and voice recorder + microphone from the T3. And the T5 cost more upon release ahnd had a vastly inferior stylus to boot! So the T3 went from being an above average unit for its time to its current mythical status as the "best Palm handheld of all time" simply due to the failings of its successor devices (T5, LifeDrive, and TX).

3. Everyone then complained about the T5's above attributes, primarily its lack of wi-fi and cheap plastic body. Palm releases the LifeDrive with splendid build quality and wi-fi/Bluetooth but with numerous stability & performance issues. Everyone then rejoices when the TX comes out at a lower price point, addresses the LD's failings but still has most of the T5's limitations! And look how people are now pining for an updated TX2!

Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5-->TX-->Treo 700P

RE: Same device as Centro?
TooMuch @ 9/7/2007 9:05:57 PM # Q
"...instead of "Touch" they ought to call it "Newton's Revenge." If they can add a keyboard and/or Graffiti ONE, removable battery and SD card and a PalmOS emulator to their line then the game is likely up for Palm - they can go into the business dumping the demo Fooleos."

joad, you've got to be kidding! Your list of "ifs" reminds me of Don Meredith's commentary to Howard Cosell about his "ifs"..."if ifs & buts were candy & nuts, we'd all have a Merry Christmas!"

Your list is hilarious (removeable battery & SD?...Apple has never & will never) and ridiculous (POS emulator?...the very need to have a POS emulator reveals the SEVERELY missing software on "Touch" to make it a true PDA competitor). "Touch" is an iPod with a WiFi radio to buy music & videos with. For crying out loud, you can't even find a foundational PDA feature in the market material on it. Apple built it to be what it is...a very sweet iPod!

RE: Same device as Centro?
mikecane @ 9/11/2007 9:00:32 AM # Q
Good God! That just sunk in: when Apple does do the iPhone/iPod SDK, I'm certain some madman will do a PalmOS emulator for it.

StyleTap, the Sequel!

(Of course, it won't actually do much since no HWR or stylus... and no one will want to write on that touchscreen!)

Reply to this comment

Well, whatever it is...

mikecane @ 9/7/2007 4:45:02 PM # Q
...it won't be anything like an iPhone.

Yawn.

Nor will it be what some people (me!me!) really want:
http://mikecane.wordpress.com/2007/09/07/im-so-bad-im-good/

RE: Well, whatever it is...
LiveFaith @ 9/7/2007 6:23:22 PM # Q
... at the current Palm rate, it will take approximately 11,000 years for them to create something as interesting as the iPhone. And that includes no Wi-Fi.

Pat Horne
RE: Well, whatever it is...
freakout @ 9/7/2007 8:58:19 PM # Q
...it won't be anything like an iPhone.

Thank God. We might actually get a phone with a hang-up button! Or even that incredibly advanced feature known as copy-and-paste. Still, it's nice to see Apple's trying. :P

RE: Well, whatever it is...
TooMuch @ 9/7/2007 9:20:27 PM # Q
Having had an iPhone for 1 week, I much happier with my T680 now. The iPhone just couldn't replace it. No one-handed operation. No speed dialing. No "touch" (by feel) typing. Etc, etc, etc. It's a beautiful product but NOT a smartphone replacement as it is. Thus, AT&T/Apple won't allow you to port a "business" phone number to it. They are strictly avoiding it being perceived as something it isn't. I wish it was, but it ain't.

BTW. I am a proud, all-Apple home & work user (15" MacBook Pro, 12" MacBook, 12" Powerbook, 17" iMac, Mac Mini, 5 ipods, etc.)...except for the iPhone, though my kids would like one. :)

RE: Well, whatever it is...
TooMuch @ 9/7/2007 9:33:36 PM # Q
MC, I read your blog on "iPhone Death Star Upgrade." I would like to add one more upgrade coming to your list...A virtual harddrive to store it all. :)

(BTW. I enjoy reading your posts.)

RE: Well, whatever it is...
TooMuch @ 9/8/2007 10:10:21 AM # Q
(BTW. I enjoy reading your posts.)

Oops, I obviously haven't read enough of your posts or you are a different person on your blog. Now that I have read further on your blog, I have changed my opinion. You lost me with the foul-mouthed blogging.

RE: Well, whatever it is...
mikecane @ 9/8/2007 12:16:18 PM # Q
TooMuch --> Good. Didn't want you there anyway.

RE: Well, whatever it is...
TooMuch @ 9/8/2007 12:59:08 PM # Q
Then don't post links to it here.

RE: Well, whatever it is...
abosco @ 9/8/2007 4:28:39 PM # Q
>>Thank God. We might actually get a phone with a hang-up button! Or even that incredibly advanced feature known as copy-and-paste. Still, it's nice to see Apple's trying. :P

Shut up. Everytime the iPhone is mentioned, you quickly inject your opinion as if you know what you're talking about. Just shut up already. Honestly. Notice the Palm Economy is considerably smaller than it was just two years ago?

-Bosco
NX80v + Wifi + BT + S710a

Ah, I love the sound of Internet rage in the morning...
freakout @ 9/8/2007 8:19:50 PM # Q
^^ Oh - so it does have a hang-up button then? Lol. I'm so dreadfully sorry for mentioning the blindingly obvious*, Bosco. Please, forgive me! I'm begging you**!

Notice the Palm Economy is considerably smaller than it was just two years ago?

And I care because...?

*Actually, I'm being incredibly sarcastic. But it can be difficult to convey on the Internet.
**Sarcasm again - just in case you missed it.


RE: Well, whatever it is...
abosco @ 9/9/2007 12:09:56 PM # Q
I guess you've never heard of Psion? In this industry, if you are unwilling to change along with the times, you'll find yourself a mere footnote on Wikipedia.

You're actually adding to the downfall of Palm by singing the praises of the Treo in comparison to the iPhone, which you still don't have any credibility to even talk about since you've never actually seen one in person. Notice you're pretty much the only one on this site that rips on the iPhone while everyone else says, "Why couldn't Palm give us that?"

No, you're right. Nevermind. Support Palm. But wait, what do I do with all of these SD cards now? Or those mini-SD cards I bought? Now I have to move to micro-SD? Can I still use my Universal Connector-equipped keyboard or do I have to buy a new one? Oh, and is the update ready for the 700p or is it still destroying Treos?

You're a Palm fanboy, nothing more.

-Bosco
NX80v + Wifi + BT + S710a

RE: Well, whatever it is...
mikecane @ 9/9/2007 2:49:49 PM # Q
No, abosco, he's just an obnoxious retard. Everyone just laughs at him.

RE: Well, whatever it is...
freakout @ 9/9/2007 5:28:18 PM # Q
You're actually adding to the downfall of Palm by singing the praises of the Treo in comparison to the iPhone, which you still don't have any credibility to even talk about since you've never actually seen one in person.

You really are a bitter little man, aren't you Bosco? As I've stated about, oh, six trillion times, I can see the Treo's failings perfectly well. Bulky form, outdated OS, crap camera yada yada. But the iPhone is far from perfect. The only people who can't see that are folks like yourself, who are so choked-up with rage towards a freakin' gadget company (which, BTW, demonstrates a really sad set of life priorities) they can't bring themselves to acknowledge that Palm could do anything right. At all.

And this "credibility" thing - so, I'm wrong then about the iPhone having a closed OS, no hang-up button, no copy-and-paste, no MMS, no removable battery, no exposed keyboard and available only with contract to a crap carrier?

P.S. If the iPhone's so fantastic, why have Apple seen the need to drop the price by 200 bucks only two months out from release? Methinks sales have not been what Apple expected. Guess hype can only take you so far before you need to actually start, y'know, competing...

And Caney, nice try. How 'bout you try getting a life already, insteading of blogging pointless nonsense while you hang out in Apple stores? It's just sad.

RE: Well, whatever it is...
jca666us @ 9/9/2007 8:48:57 PM # Q
Freak you're a clown - by dropping the iphone's price by $200 - apple is raising competition against palm. What will palm do to compete? Include an extra sd card with every Treo? :) maybe that will make people forget the boxy form factor, crappy OS, crappy camera, and small screen.

iphone sales are on target - about a million iphones by the end of september...while treo sales are steadily declining.

FYI, apple can lower the iphone's cost because: a. production has ramped up and b. since the ipod touch and iphone share components - economies of scale come into play and lower component prices.

I - along with many others - call out your criticisms of the iphone since - as many readers know - you've never used one.

You really should just write what you know - which admittedly isn't much!

RE: Well, whatever it is...
cervezas @ 9/9/2007 9:44:51 PM # Q
It is curious how freakout's detractors seem to miss the point over and over again: he is a Palm fan who has looked at the limitations of the Treo and the iPhone and figured he's personally better off with a Treo. I've used an iPhone and I had the same response as Tim, for many of the same reasons plus a few others: I just didn't find it to be very good for doing business, which is why I bother carrying a smartphone in the first place. It won't connect to my company email or calendar. It won't let me edit or even view office docs. It won't let me log into and control my remote desktops and servers. It won't let me read eBooks or RSS feeds offline, like when I'm on a flight. I couldn't get the web-based iChat to work decently for IM, which we use heavily on my team. And it's nice to be able to download and play a game every once in a while, but I can't do that either. All things considered, there are really very few things I personally need or want to be able to do with a smartphone that I can do with an iPhone, whereas the Treo for all its other limitations, covers the territory fairly well. For me it's just a pretty feature phone and iPod--nice, but of very little use to me.

Like Tim, I really don't give a damn if Apple sells 500 iPhones for every Treo that Palm sells. It's not going to make me buy an iPhone. Obviously, other people have different things they want from their mobile, but I'd be embarrassed as hell if I called them "clowns," "retards" or "shills" for Apple because of this. I mean, who can't understand the simple fact that the iPhone and Treo are designed for different users to meet different needs?

David Beers
Senior Wireless Developer
MapQuest
www.pikesoft.com/blog

Brilliant stratagem!
freakout @ 9/9/2007 9:48:23 PM # Q
If a product is selling as well as you'd hoped at 600 dollars, you don't [B]drop[/B] the price - and eliminate another variant altogether. What, you think Apple don't like money or something?

As for my criticisms of the iPhone, I again challenge any of you sad little people (and it's always you guys) to actually show me where I'm wrong. You still haven't. Put up or shut up, folks. (But what's the bet you'll do neither?)

Tim
I apologise for any and all emoticons that appear in my posts. You may shoot them on sight.
Treo 270 ---> Treo 650 ---> Crimson Treo 680

RE: Well, whatever it is...
freakout @ 9/9/2007 9:51:21 PM # Q
Cheers Beersie, for restoring my faith in humanity. Hopefully, your rationalism will be infectious. Sadly, I suspect it won't.
RE: Well, whatever it is...
mikecane @ 9/10/2007 10:00:48 AM # Q
I call him a Retard because that's obviously what he is.

And you seem to think, Beers, that the the iPhone won't impact Treo sales because people "need different things." That doesn't mean the Treo is the alternative to the iPhone.

Wait to see what Palm says about Treo sales for last quarter and this one. It'll be, "WHAT Treo sales?"

RE: Well, whatever it is...
SeldomVisitor @ 9/10/2007 10:03:04 AM # Q
Apple today said they had now sold their millionth iPhone.

A Lehman "analyst" today said he/she thought PALM's AT&T sales would be the pits.

Connection?

RE: Well, whatever it is...
cervezas @ 9/10/2007 10:59:44 AM # Q
Wow, Mike. Do you ever read before replying?

Let me spell it out one more time. The iPhone is *obviously* a big problem for Palm's business insofar as they're going after the "consumer" smartphone space (and they clearly are). Tim's never said anything different, to my knowledge, and neither have I. But it's irrelevant to the point he has been making, which is just that a lot of people will still consider Treos to be better than iPhones for their purpose. There's nothing stupid about that at all. I wouldn't make the iPhone the phone I carry if you gave it to me for free with lifetime free service. I'd still have to carry something like a Treo.

If Palm goes out of business some day, I'd much sooner switch to a high-end Nokia than I would to an iPhone. The only stupid idea is the one that "iPhone takes all."

David Beers
Senior Wireless Developer
MapQuest
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: Well, whatever it is...
mikecane @ 9/10/2007 11:54:58 AM # Q
I never said iPhone takes all. The Retard doesn't understand what a breakthrough the iPhone is on several levels. You do, which is why you haven't seen me arguing with you.

BTW, will you post the damned concluding part of your Foleo thoughts on your blog already? (If you just did, post the URL.)

RE: Well, whatever it is...
mikecane @ 9/10/2007 12:19:12 PM # Q
Besides which, Beers, what you doing here during these hours? Nothing to do at your new job? (Or are you a telecommuter?)

RE: Well, whatever it is...
hkklife @ 9/10/2007 3:45:55 PM # Q
Well, keeping in mind the fact that probably 80% of the "business types" I know that use a Treo have NO 3rd party software on their Treos other than what Palm bundles in ROM or on the CD in the box, I can perfectly see "those types" jumping ship to the iPhone because they need little more than a cellphone with a built-in address book, calendar, and digital camera.

Now, there are folks like myself that could conceivably carry an iPod Touch IN ADDITION to a Treo. The Treo is still the superior PDA smartphone vs. the iPhone for classic PIM/e-mail/etc. purposes (ie anything not involving multimedia) but Apple's likely to be on their 3rd generation iPhone design by the time Palm even gets a buggy first-gen PLinux product out the door. Palm's stingy obsession with small square screens is really going to be their downfall. I had a lady ask me the other day when I pulled out my Treo "Oh is that a Treo or a BlackBerry? They're both like little iPhones but with tiny screens and little keyboards that no one knows how to use". Crude, yes, but that pretty much sums up the opinion of the masses as far as these things go.


Now, I refuse to carry 3 devices. 2 devices is the maximum I'll carry with me during a workday. Since I rely on voice for most critical tasks, I'll probably stick with a dedicated dumbphone no matter what. Now, what to pair with it? A Treo, a TX or an iPod Touch? All have a variety of pros & cons.

A small/sleek flip dumbphone (I currently have a Moto KRZR K1m) is still the best "primary" device IMO because they are so durable and easy to pocket if you are traveling light. Other pros are superb battery life, reception, durability, voice quality, Bluetooth, and speakerphone/hands-free functionality. Dumbphone are rock-solid stable but have lame web/e-mail/camera/multimedia/contacts functionality.


Let's examine the pros & cons of my other three available choices:

#1 Treo (I currently have a 700p)
Pros: Removable battery in a wide variety of capacities, EVDO "internet anywhere", strong PIM functionality, superb thumboard, "thousands" of available apps & accessories

Cons: Bulky, heavy, only mediocre battery, atrocious voice quality and reception, poor build quality & reliability, small square screen, poor multimedia capabilities, poor Bluetooth performance, pricey, requires a data + voice plan on Verizon even if I don't use it as a voice phone

#3 iPod Touch
Pros: 8 or 16GB of internal storage, fantastic screen, superb mp3 player functionality & audio output quality, good build quality, fantastic UI. Sleek & slim design. Good value for the $ considering the amount of storage included.

Cons: Mediocre PDA functionality, no cut'n paste, no stylus, no Graffiti/Jot etc, no removable SD slot, fixed battery, unproved track record, and no 3rd party apps.

#4 Palm TX
Pros: 320x480 LCD, 128mb RAM, wi-fi and Bluetooth, cheap. strong PIM apps, stylus, SD slot, "thousands" of avilable apps & accessories. Best compromise between media & productivity between the two above units.

Cons: Mediocre hardware quality and styling, fixed battery, dim LCD, no SDHC capability so 4GB card max size.

Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5-->TX-->Treo 700P

RE: Well, whatever it is...
hkklife @ 9/10/2007 3:48:45 PM # Q
Edit: in between #2 & #4 is supposed to be #3 "Windows Mobile PDA" which I pretty much have ruled out. It lacks any of the compelling features of the iPhone, would require rebuying many apps that I already have for POS, and would seem to be (at best) a sideways upgrade compared to the two TX's I already own.

I suppose i'll stick to the primitive dumbphone + 700p combination for the time being due to Verizon's sluggish release cycle and to see what Palm comes up with in early '08 (my 700p's contract is up in June '08).

But right now I am getting the distinct feeling that the 700p is going to end up being my final Palm-branded device unless something changes soon. I am not going to abandon the platform by any means, but Palm has absolutely NOTHING in the way of compelling product right now.

Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5-->TX-->Treo 700P

RE: Well, whatever it is...
cervezas @ 9/10/2007 4:42:22 PM # Q
I don't know what "business types" you encounter in your travels, Kris, but the number one apps I see business people using on their Treos are email and calendar, both interoperating with Exchange Server. Since the iPhone doesn't work with Exchange in its most common configuration, and doesn't work with BlackBerry Enterprise Server in any configuration that rules it out as a viable device for most of the business people I know.

As much as folks here seem to be wringing their hands about how Palm will be affected by iPhone (and I don't necessarily disagree) I still have a feeling that the biggest threat to Palm is RIM. Working downtown, riding the commuter train, and flying between Denver and the Coasts, I still see 15 BlackBerries for every iPhone, and Treos outnumbering iPhones at least 5 to 1. This isn't offered as an anecdotal sample of all mobile users, but these people working in Denver's financial, telecom, energy and government offices are probably a reasonably good sample of Palm's bread and butter market.


David Beers
Senior Wireless Developer
MapQuest
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: Well, whatever it is...
freakout @ 9/10/2007 5:24:32 PM # Q
mikecane:
I never said iPhone takes all. The Retard doesn't understand what a breakthrough the iPhone is on several levels. You do, which is why you haven't seen me arguing with you.

Un-bloodly-believable. You are so full of crap it's a wonder you haven't exploded. A few choice quotes from that oh-so-controversial editorial I wrote:

email:

iPhone's email is visually impressive, and has features like in-line photos that leave Versamail in the dust.

web:

Blazer is a joke. It was pretty good a couple of years ago, but nowadays is just not up to scratch. iPhone on the other hand gives us a stripped-down version of Safari...it renders full web pages and meshes them with intelligent touch-controls to give us what is unequivocally the most impressive mobile web browser to date.

On media:

But out of the box an iPhone blows the Treo out of the water, and it's mostly due to two things: a large screen and iTunes.

Make no bones about it, Apple's new multi-touch technology is indeed revolutionary...

hardware:

Apple's hardware has always been of high quality and specifically designed to inspire gadget lust. iPhone is no exception and kills the Treo stone-cold dead in this category.

But it doesn't fit your ridiculous personal attacks on me to actually take all this into account, hence it's ignored. And life goes on...

Tim
I apologise for any and all emoticons that appear in my posts. You may shoot them on sight.
Treo 270 ---> Treo 650 ---> Crimson Treo 680

RE: Well, whatever it is...
mikecane @ 9/10/2007 6:13:08 PM # Q
/ignore Retard

Beers: I see Sidekicks galore where I am. (Great device name too, that.)

Apple never said the iPhone was an Enterprise tool. I'm sure you know that.

hkk: I forgot where I posted it, but I saw a woman on a subway doing something with her Treo. When she was done, she pulled out an *iPod* to play music. So much for MP3 via Treo! Everyday people *will* carry 2 devices.

RE: Well, whatever it is...
freakout @ 9/10/2007 7:07:48 PM # Q
For now. As Gekko is so fond of saying, there's no need to fumble with 2+ devices when one smartphone can do them all.

(Yes, I know you're just going to post a pathetic insult in response. No, I couldn't care less. The only person you demean with that rubbish is yourself.)

RE: Well, whatever it is...
Gekko @ 9/10/2007 7:12:08 PM # Q

"There's no reason to buy/manage/charge/carry/sync/fight/fumble with 2+ devices when ONE Smartphone can do it all."



RE: Well, whatever it is...
Gekko @ 9/10/2007 7:12:52 PM # Q

i'm so ready to give up my treo and get a blackberry.

be careful what you wish for?

RE: Well, whatever it is...
jca666us @ 9/10/2007 7:41:37 PM # Q
>It is curious how freakout's detractors seem to miss the point over and over again:
>he is a Palm fan who has looked at the limitations of the Treo and the iPhone and
>figured he's personally better off with a Treo.

Beers, that he is a palm fanATIC isn't in dispute - it's his making conclusions and basing opinions on a device he has never used. He's better off with a treo because that's all he can get.

>It won't let me edit or even view office docs.

With editing you are correct. When it comes to viewing office documents then you don't know what you're talking about - I can view pdf, word, and excel on my iphone.

>Like Tim, I really don't give a damn if Apple sells 500 iPhones for every Treo that
>Palm sells. It's not going to make me buy an iPhone.

You guys should - Palm has made a few lackluster attempts to enter the consumer market ("The Treo 650 in four exciting colors!") - and the LifeDrive. Palm needs a breakout consumer hit to broaden their market. The iphone is squeezing Palm at one end and RIM is squeezing them from the other. Also, apple isn't standing still - they just announced the ipod touch and firmware updates for the iphone will be forthcoming.

>Obviously, other people have different things they want from their mobile, but I'd
>be embarrassed as hell if I called them "clowns," "retards" or "shills" for Apple
>because of this. I mean, who can't understand the simple fact that the iPhone and
>Treo are designed for different users to meet different needs?

I agree that the iphone and the treo are designed for different markets - however I consider the person who ineptly compared them a clown and I stand by that assessment.

Now I'll take on the clown's comments:

>If a product is selling as well as you'd hoped at 600 dollars, you don't drop
>the price - and eliminate another variant altogether. What, you think Apple don't
>like money or something?

Apple is attempting to grow marketshare by the maneuver - a million iphones since June 29th - in a few weeks we can here how badly Palm is doing with the treo.

>As for my criticisms of the iPhone, I again challenge any of you sad little people >(and it's always you guys) to actually show me where I'm wrong. You still haven't.

Your opinion is your opinion - I've told you several times where you're mistaken about the iphone. Unfortunately you're too much of a palm apologist to take your blinders off and see where apple has innovated with the iphone.

Is it perfect, no. However it's got alot of things Palm should be looking to copy.

However you continually take trivial issues with the iphone and blow them out of proportion, while nontrivial issues with the treo are glossed over.

The form factor on the iphone is incredible - the treo looks ilke it was developed in 1985. The OS on the iphone blows the single tasking Palm out of the water...usability is another area where Apple is ahead of the curve.

Blazer on the treo - total trash compared to safari on the iphone.

>Put up or shut up, folks. (But what's the bet you'll do neither?)

Speak for yourself clown boy!

Take my BlackBerry
cervezas @ 9/10/2007 10:01:49 PM # Q
Gekko wrote:
I'm so ready to give up my treo and get a blackberry.

Take mine. Please!

I added a BB 8830 to my stable last week and had it set it up on the company's BES. Nice looking piece of hardware--I'd been really looking forward to getting my hands on it. But its heritage as a two-way pager really shows when it comes to the clunky human interface. So much tedious scrolling, which wasn't so terrible with the old trackwheel (one of the original BB's good features) but is a royal pain with the fidgety new trackball. Think Garnet is looking a little tired? Ha! The fonts on the BlackBerry look like they were inspired by a Little League scoreboard from the 50s and are so scrawny, boxy and cramped as to be downright painful to read. Inscrutable navigation gaffs abound. (Granted, no mobile OS is good in this regard! Not one!) There's grossly inefficient use of a beautiful, high-resolution screen (more scrolling). The keyboard, which should be better than the Treo's because of the extra width, is actually worse because the keys are almost flush with the surface of the phone and have these vague, finger-confusing ridges instead of being domed so you can find them easily.

Strangest of all, you would think that since the BlackBerry was designed to be an email machine there would be a dedicated button to take you right to your Inbox. Nope. Most of the time you have to navigate around to it (scroll, scroll, whoops! scroll, push). And once you get there you find that your incoming and sent email are all jumbled together. What's up with that?

Hopefully, I'll get used to it and find some positive things to say. (Ok, there are some nice touches, but I'm mostly experiencing gratuitous pain, so I'm feeling cranky about it.)

Anyway, it drives home an interesting point for me. The fact that BlackBerries so far outnumber Treos out there is a powerful testament to the fact that services trump devices. Apple certainly gets it with the iTunes store. Dell is starting to understand this after HP came back from oblivion and mopped the floor with them. It's time for Palm to get creative on the service end, too. Here's a hint, Palm: Think Sync. You did it with the PDA and desktop by creating HotSync and a developer-friendly conduit API--that plus the simplicity was the magic of the Palm Pilot. Now do the same thing for synchronizing all of our computing experiences--any device, any application. Make my data ubiquitous, and available online or off.

David Beers
Senior Wireless Developer
MapQuest
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: Well, whatever it is...
Gekko @ 9/10/2007 10:09:47 PM # Q

1. i know BlackBerry is not a panacea nor perfect. i'm just hoping it's not that bad. i like bulletproof push email and NO CRASHES. can't get that from treo.

2. we tend to "like what we know", so if you are used to X and switch to Y, you will biitch about Y because you were used to X. until that is you get used to Y.

3. palm is no apple. palm is incapable of being creative/innovative. they're all out of ideas and have no idea-people. contrast what palm has produced over the last 5 years with what apple has done. i'm no fan of apple/steve jobs, but i have to give the bastards credit. luck has nothing to do with it. they are master innovators and master marketers. palm is neither.

RE: Well, whatever it is...
hkklife @ 9/10/2007 10:12:44 PM # Q
Beersy, you do bring up some very good points. For some reason, I just cannot convince myself that BBs (even the latest generation of 'em) are still all that consumer-friendly. Sure, they are bringing stuff like A2DP, 3.5mm stereo headphone jacks, GPS and wi-fi to the table nowadays...but I still vastly prefer the Treo keyboard, d-pad, and, yes, UI. And ditto to the skinny, scrawny BB fonts.

I detest the new trackball. Did BB users really gripe to RIM THAT MUCH about the old scrollwheel? I personally liked it and thought it one of the few bright points in the early days of BB evices when equivalent Palm OS devices looked positively iPhone-esque next to those hideous pager-like RIM devices!

I PERSONALLY could care less about ubiquitous data available online. I don't trust it and Treos have such poor reception that half of the time when I am in office buildings etc. my Treo bleeps and bloops and is searching for a signal. Just give me a big ol' SDHC card and I'll carry all of my own data around on it, thank you very much! But seriously, I see your point and agree 100% that Palm HUGELY dropped the ball in regards placing an emphasis on the various forms of syncing. Palm Desktop should've been overhauled years ago to feature an integrated browser window & incorporated something like the MyPalm portal showing the latest version updates and links to easily download and install hot new software. And let's not even get into Palm Desktop's glaring lack of multimedia functionality!

Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5-->TX-->Treo 700P

RE: Well, whatever it is...
hkklife @ 9/10/2007 10:14:28 PM # Q
Gekko;

Have you ever considered a WinMob Treo? In the little bit I've used it, the 700wx (especially with the latest updates on it) on Verizon seems quite solid. Even the build quality on the 700wx seems beter than on the 700p! 240x240 blows terribly but at least it's fairly stable and seems to make a better voice phone than anything running POS.

Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5-->TX-->Treo 700P

RE: Well, whatever it is...
twrock @ 9/10/2007 10:52:22 PM # Q
Palm: Think Sync.

Yep. Maybe I missed something back when people were still talking about the Foleo, but I kept thinking to myself that the Foleo would only be truly interesting to me if EVERYTHING on the smartphone synced the moment the devices linked. It should have been completely automated and a no-brainer to set up. The Foleo that I wanted should have come with every piece of bundled software that the smartphone had (or equivalent) so that the data was completely interchangeable. No matter what device I choose to carry, it all needs to be there. And as David suggests, there are other ways for Palm to consider how I can keep my entire "life" in sync. But I also agree with Kris, I want my critical data with me all the time and accessible. Am I asking for too much?


Thinking about Vista? Think again: http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/pubs/vista_cost.txt
Want an alternative? Try this: http://www.ubuntu.com/ or http://www.mepis.org/
RE: Well, whatever it is...
cervezas @ 9/10/2007 11:40:39 PM # Q
Totally agree that I don't want all my data living in the cloud where I need connectivity to get at it. I want copies of it on my own physical media wherever I am, and I want those copies synchronized as I work on them using whatever network is available.

Personally, as far as the "mobile companion" idea goes I still think the best idea is not so much synchronization, but for the phone to physically dock into the companion device and appear as a removable drive. This way there is no time-consuming or error-prone sync process required over a wireless connection that may or may not be fast and reliable. There are design challenges with this, but if Foleo was mine to create, that's the concept I'd be working with. Maybe the Foleo would be like a leather-bound book and there would be a pouch near the hinge that would accept the Phone and have a connector hidden inside it. If I had something like this I would keep that little "book" with me all the time, just as I currently do my mobile phone and my paper notebook.

I don't know. It would help differentiate the Foleo from "ultra-portable laptops" and make the "companion" idea more immediately comprehensible. I want something like this bad, but I'd be the first to admit that it would still be a challenge to market.

David Beers
Senior Wireless Developer
MapQuest
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: Well, whatever it is...
cervezas @ 9/10/2007 11:58:04 PM # Q
i like bulletproof push email and NO CRASHES.

Well, Google Maps locked up the BlackBerry 8830 belonging to one of my colleagues today so that he had to remove the battery to restore it to operability. The screen froze, the LED froze on red, it was completely hosed. Like you said: nothing's perfect. Still, RIMs reputation on email is pretty solid.

I've not had trouble with email on any of my Treos, but I haven't used one of the models that people have had stability or lag problems with, and I only occasionally dabbled in push email, which I consider evil. I got the BlackBerry mostly because I need to work on GPS-enabled mapping applications. That and morbid curiosity.

David Beers
Senior Wireless Developer
MapQuest
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: Well, whatever it is...
twrock @ 9/11/2007 12:21:07 AM # Q
I still think the best idea is not so much synchronization, but for the phone to physically dock into the companion device and appear as a removable drive.

I guess I am holding onto syncing for two reasons. First, I do want to be able to choose to leave either device "behind". I suppose this would not be very often, and even less likely if my handheld was a smartphone, but the possibility is still attractive to me. Secondly, I like it for data backup purposes.

Part of the problem with choosing a path is simply one of what can actually be done right now (and done well) given the current state of hardware/software and what would be the theoretical "best world". Innovation requires some ability to imagine the theoretical possibilities in spite of the current realities and work toward realizing the possibilities.

"Well, whatever it is...", I would think that the "connection" (whether via keeping everything in sync or just using the data off of the handheld) would ideally be wireless/non-physical. Otherwise, such a "companion" device would require all paired devices to have the same physical connection system. This would limit the device's usefulness to Palm products only that they choose to standardize (and we all know how consistent they've been with that).



Thinking about Vista? Think again: http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/pubs/vista_cost.txt
Want an alternative? Try this: http://www.ubuntu.com/ or http://www.mepis.org/

RE: Well, whatever it is...
freakout @ 9/11/2007 1:06:51 AM # Q
I've said it a few times, but I think the biggest piece missing from Palm's sync puzzle is the lack of a stand-alone software store. Oh, sure, they have the Software Connection area on their website. But the purchase and installation of mobile software shouldn't have to happen via the browser, which many average computer users are just incapable of working out. It should be a one-click process within the Palm Desktop itself. In short, an iTunes for mobile applications.

You should also be able to manage the software on your device via the same application. Palm's built-in "Delete" menu is frightening. It should be as simple and attractive as Windows' Add/Remove programs panel. But much more reliable. ;)

Tim
I apologise for any and all emoticons that appear in my posts. You may shoot them on sight.
Treo 270 ---> Treo 650 ---> Crimson Treo 680

RE: Well, whatever it is...
SeldomVisitor @ 9/11/2007 6:22:28 AM # Q
W.r.t. sync et al - if PALM does it right (no, I no longer expect them to) then the Linux line of devices with brand-new designed from the TOP down applications with mandated new interfaces (data and user) will all be "syncable" similarly across devices for all such devices and the current "This app syncs, that one doesn't, this app allows instant-on, that one doesn't" set of problems will go away. I wouldn't hold my breath for this, though, gotta admit.

==========

> ...I still think the best idea is not so much synchronization, but
> for the phone to physically dock into the companion device...

What a great idea!

-- http://discussion.treocentral.com/showthread.php?t=33796

Giggle.

[note - though not in that particular multi-year thread, SOMEWHERE I expanded on that literally-no-more-than-minutes-of-thought falling-asleep set of thoughts with something along the line of "make the phone part of a "component system" where one can interchange devices at will, like an audio (stereo) system"...unfortunately, where that was posted is lost in antiquity...maybe some board on Yahoo]

RE: Well, whatever it is...
cervezas @ 9/11/2007 9:33:39 AM # Q
Great ideas, all. As you guys know, I'm particularly fond of SV's modular mobile computing idea and have posted/blogged about it myself on various occasions.

But Tim's description of an iTunes style super-easy software store is, in my view, an absolute prerequisite for Palm's "personalize with software" business strategy. Palm should not be leaving the software store to the Handangos and PalmGears of the Web, but should take control of the exploration and installation process to make it totally simple. They should incentivize developers by keeping Palm's cut of the sales revenue to something below 20%, and they should build in a payment system that makes impulse buys from the device or PC without a credit card easy. Maybe even have a micropayments option and bundle the device with $30 of software credit to get people to shop, download, and try new things.

David Beers
Senior Wireless Developer
MapQuest
www.pikesoft.com/blog

Reply to this comment

The launch

grimpeur @ 9/8/2007 8:57:54 AM # Q
It is definitely a WM device as the other major players attending the launch are Microsoft and Vodaphone.

See; http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=42215

"The new product is not, contrary to much chatter on the web, the Centro, of which little is known other than what can be gleaned from the usual murky shots snapped by PDA-obsessed sites. Instead itís a Treo that will be launched with partners Vodafone and Microsoft at a London press conference next Wednesday."

RE: The launch
mikecane @ 9/8/2007 12:18:43 PM # Q
More WinMob... yeesh.

RE: The launch
pascanu @ 9/8/2007 2:22:26 PM # Q
In Europe a phone HAS to be 3G. (and by 3G I mean GSM/UMTS, CDMA is almost non-existent in Europe). That means it cannot be PalmOS. End of story.

Handspring Visor -> m505 -> Zire71 -> Zire72 -> Treo650
RE: The launch
grimpeur @ 9/9/2007 9:11:39 AM # Q
Eh, here's something to confuse you.

Most phones networks in Europe are indeed GSM, 3rd generation UMTS networks are becoming more ubiquitous however. Interestingly though UMTS uses W-CDMA technology and not the the F/TDMA system used by GSM.

Electronics engineer hat off.

I'm just pissed off we're getting another Win Mobile Treo in Europe and not a Palm OS version.

Reply to this comment

More Palm Excitement

T_W @ 9/8/2007 1:22:47 PM # Q
Sources have told PalmInfocenter that the event could likely be the launch of a new Windows Mobile powered smartphone. In addition, the device will likely be Palm's first non-touchscreen device running Windows Mobile Standard (formerly Smartphone edition).

Man... can you taste the excitement. This will definitely push the iPod Touch out of the limelight.

320x240 display, probably 32megs, no touch screen, ugly ass form factor.

Awesome.

RE: More Palm Excitement
asiayeah @ 9/8/2007 9:50:01 PM # Q
I agree. This is not an excitement for anyone, but Palm's competitors.

It's hardly an excitement to have Palm releasing a new thing that never comes from its own. But the product has already existed in the market place from other competitors long ago!

--
With great power comes great responsiblity.

Reply to this comment

It is indeed a Treo 500

SeldomVisitor @ 9/10/2007 5:39:26 PM # Q
At least, according to TreoCentral:

-- http://www.treocentral.com/content/Stories/1336-1.htm

RE: It is indeed a Treo 500
Gazpacho @ 9/10/2007 6:05:50 PM # Q
Still, we got it first ;)

http://www.palmclub.nl/nieuws/28427/palm-treo-500-binnenkort-bij-the-phone-house-te-koop-nieuws.html

http://foleocentral.blogspot.com

FoleoCentral is the news, opinions & review blog about the Palm Foleo Mobile Companion

RE: It is indeed a Treo 500 - witha nonEuro keyboard?
SeldomVisitor @ 9/10/2007 6:26:51 PM # Q
Isn't that keyboard wrong for Europe? Or is it just a small part of Europe that uses the different keyboard?


RE: It is indeed a Treo 500
Gazpacho @ 9/10/2007 7:08:50 PM # Q
Uhm, QWERTY is pretty much the standard around here. Just the stupid Germans *grin* are using QWERTZ and the crazy French *grin* are using AZERTY.

Rest of us prefer US-International. ;)

http://foleocentral.blogspot.com

FoleoCentral is the news, opinions & review blog about the Palm Foleo Mobile Companion

Reply to this comment

Surur posted a link to the UK site but...

SeldomVisitor @ 9/12/2007 7:02:59 AM # Q
...THIS reader clickety-clicks down into that link and gets redirected either to an error page or back to the same page:

-- http://discussion.treocentral.com/showpost.php?p=1344719&postcount=96

Anyone able to access the new device information?

Ain't PALM's Marketing group dy-NO-mite!?

At least they can spell Netherlands now.

RE: Surur posted a link to the UK site but...
SeldomVisitor @ 9/12/2007 7:17:20 AM # Q
It's working now.

RE: Surur posted a link to the UK site but...
SeldomVisitor @ 9/12/2007 7:19:39 AM # Q
Well, no.

Clicked on "Buy" and it went to a page without the 500.

Giving PALM the benefit of the doubt (...) perhaps it redirects nonUK folks elsewhere.

Uh huh.

The Gag That Couldn't Shoot Straight.

RE: Surur posted a link to the UK site but...
SeldomVisitor @ 9/12/2007 7:21:50 AM # Q
Oh...I thought the :Buy" page was simply broken with Firefox so I tried again with IE.

It's still broken.

This is pretty amazing.

As noted before - what stock manipulator in their right mind could come up with this stuff?

Sheesh.

I think PALM is short PALM stock.

RE: Surur posted a link to the UK site but...
SeldomVisitor @ 9/12/2007 7:33:16 AM # Q
Okay, the Buy page is working now.

But you can't buy the Treo 500 yet - have to wait (at least) another month.


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