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Comments on: Foleo Product Announcement Strategy Analysis

The Wharton School of Business at the University of Pennsylvania has posted an interesting marketing analysis about technology product announcement strategy. The article comments on three recent announcements from Apple, Microsoft and Palm. The author covers the merits and marketing factors behind pre-announcing products versus keeping quiet and includes quotes from a number of Wharton professors. Of course it also talks about the iPhone and also includes some opinion on the reasons for the "tepid" reception for the Palm Foleo from industry analysts.
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Apple froze the smartphone market.

VampireLestat @ 6/16/2007 12:00:01 AM # Q
Apple announced the iPhone in Jan and froze the market.

Considering the recent 25% investment in Palm and the current firings, I would not be surprised if the latter 2 events are a result of a greater than expected sudden collapse of Treo sales that we have yet to learn about.

I ask around at work and practically everyone is considering an iPhone. Is it possible that Palm is now getting sales numbers for the last few months and they are now realizing that their 1 trick Pony Treo (and WM) and their relentless arrogant backstabbing/bashing of traditional Palm OS handheld consumers is about to become their demise?

An evil side of me wants Palm to be punished and go bankrupt, but the nicer side of me simply wants them to get back to work and start making multiple new product lines included PDAs, advanced multimedia devices (with and without cellular), and yes, continue to make Treos.

RE: Apple froze the smartphone market.
VampireLestat @ 6/16/2007 12:08:03 AM # Q
Btw, does anyone know if its the people in the handheld, Palm OS/WM and/or Foleo departments who were fired? Can't be Treo people of course because they are like little protected poodles.

RE: Apple froze the smartphone market.
SeldomVisitor @ 6/16/2007 7:04:28 AM # Q
Clarification not accepted - go ahead and be politically incorrect.

RE: Apple froze the smartphone market.
joad @ 6/16/2007 12:17:57 PM # Q
VampireLestat: If the entirety of your complaints about Mr. Colligan's performance at Palm are so few that you have to include stereotypical comments about who or what he may sleep with, I would have to assume that you have little problem with his performance at Palm.

I have issues with what Palm has done over the past few years - but I could give a poop about what Colligan or anyone else does on their free time. It's about what they do when they're WORKING that's been the problem.

RE: Apple froze the smartphone market.
SeldomVisitor @ 6/16/2007 12:45:51 PM # Q
> Ryan...

Ah - Mr. Lyons confirmed as the Obsessed Fan so obsessed he took on my Yahoo ID here.

But we knew that already.

Giggle.

RE: Apple froze the smartphone market.
Admin @ 6/16/2007 1:09:32 PM # Q
I removed a few comments here. For the record, I don't think that kind of speculation is appropriate or relevant to this article.
RE: Apple froze the smartphone market.
Gekko @ 6/16/2007 1:36:55 PM # Q

oh no, God forbid we joke about any of the "protected classes"!!!

but those evil white heterosexual men are all fair game.

you've got to love liberal hypocrisy and san francisco values!!!



RE: Apple froze the smartphone market.
LiveFaith @ 6/16/2007 1:39:30 PM # Q
** Can't be Treo people of course because they are like little protected poodles. **

My gosh Vampy. They are protected because of all the cutting edge products the have pushed out for the last 4 years. Gotta stick with the innovators baby!!! Woof-woof

Pat Horne

RE: Apple froze the smartphone market.
Admin @ 6/16/2007 1:39:32 PM # Q
I don't care who or what you want to 'joke' about if you want to call it that in the forums, but it's really inappropriate in an news article discussion about marketing.
RE: Apple froze the smartphone market.
EdH @ 6/16/2007 3:10:12 PM # Q
Vampire Lestat said:
An evil side of me wants Palm to be punished and go bankrupt, but the nicer side of me simply wants them to get back to work and start making multiple new product lines included PDAs, advanced multimedia devices (with and without cellular), and yes, continue to make Treos.

The nicer side is just giving them directions on how to go bankrupt, so what you have essentially said is, both your evil and good sides wants them to go under.

Get into 2005 already. If standalone PDAs had a market, Palm, HP, Casio or any number of other device makers from yesteryear would be doing it. There is no market. It is about the cell phone.

RE: Apple froze the smartphone market.
VampireLestat @ 6/16/2007 7:15:08 PM # Q
Palm hasnt released a new PDA in years, so how can you conclude there is no market?
Cells are very popular, and will continue to be (even though I expect sales to plateuu eventually), but that doesnt mean PDAs dont have a healthy profitable future.

And actually we are talking about the same thing really, more or less. I am all in favor of cellular radios in pdas. My problem with the Treo is screen real-estate and dependence on carriers.

I think Palm is in for one helluva rough debacle once the iPhone is released. The iPhone merges the Treo and PDA worlds together intelligently. It is a powerful full screen multitasking mobile computing device which so happens to offer perfect telephony as well.

Remember the days when we were all screaming for a 320x480 PDA with a virtual graffiti area? Or the days when we wanted the T3 to become a solid 320x480 device? Well my quarrel with the Treo is the same. The Treo is a pda with cellular. Just not designed the way I like it.

The iPhone TV ads are extremely appealing to me. I like many millions of others I am sure are seriously considering the iPhone as the first serious mobile computing device with telephony.

RE: Apple froze the smartphone market.
joad @ 6/18/2007 3:13:04 AM # Q
>>VampireLestat @ 6/16/2007 7:04:55 PM #
>>To joad,
Don't go all mental on me. Take a deep breath before you go off on your pre-programmed rant. I didnt write anything offensive, and when I wrote "poodles with pink ribbons" I knew I had to type an explanation because people like you have a mental block then go ballistic like a pitbul. Which explains why people like Gekko are unfortunately furious at the "liberal left".

Ok, whatever.

Your (original unedited) post clearly drifted into what appeared to be discussing the guy's sex life. Whether you believe you "didnt write anything offensive" is for you to decide, I don't really care. The fact you said you wanted to go back and edit it might give you a clue about your own feelings. Attempting to blame others for that desire is another clue.

Your ridiculous personal attack against *ME* (copied above) was unnecessary. If it scared you *that* much that I pointed out that your off-topic comments about his personal life don't seem to bolster your case against Palm, I'm deeply sorry.

A lot of your perspectives in this thread are very thought provoking, but I'm really not interested in reading your amateur psychological profiles of me or anyone else in these forums.

RE: Apple froze the smartphone market.
Rhauer @ 6/18/2007 3:14:29 AM # Q
OK - PDA's don't have a market. How about a 60g media player with Palm software. Awesome screen, lots of software. Is there a market for that?.



PalmOS media player
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 6/18/2007 10:43:54 AM # Q
OK - PDA's don't have a market. How about a 60g media player with Palm software. Awesome screen, lots of software. Is there a market for that?.

Sony went down that road when it designed its brilliant OLED-screened VZ90. With both CompactFlash and Memory Stick slots, it works well as a media player. Unfortunately, when the device came out (Japan-only) it was hideously expensive and Sony had already decided to pull out of the market. There could've been a great market for such a device, but with the demise of Tapwave and Sony, don't hold your breath.

If you're looking for a solid, inexpensive PalmOS media player, get a Tapwave Zodiac 2 (dual SD slots!) and an old copy of TCPMP (freeware media player). With its nice, big screen, its ATI video chip and 128 MD of RealRAM™, the Zodiac 2 is probably the best cheap media player you can get. Last year the company responsible for selling off Tapwave's inventory after the bankruptcy was selling new units for only $125. They started with several hundred units and the last time I checked, they still had a couple hundred left.

TVoR

RE: Apple froze the smartphone market.
Rhauer @ 6/18/2007 12:45:54 PM # Q
I have that on my TX. It is time for more from Palm. I don't want one device and I need something new to pair with my phone.

RE: Apple froze the smartphone market.
hkklife @ 6/18/2007 3:35:18 PM # Q
Palm just keep missing the boat. How hard could it be to stick 4gb of flash into the TX and then give it a fullsize SDHC slot that supports another 8gb? Bundle it with a reskinned/revamped version of CorePlayer and/or PTunes deluxe and push it as a cheapie DIY video/media/web browser.

The problem with Palm was that (around the time of the T|T to T|T3) they should have repositioned the entire PDA line as mp3-playin', video viewin' devices. But Palm bungled the audio output on the original T|Ts and Zire 71 and then crippled the T|C with a mono headphone jack. Then they got everything right on the T3 other than the slider and the battery life. Now you have tons of PMPs flooding the market that have (at best) an FM tuner and a calendar or phone book app in addition to their multimedia functions. Palm has been missing the boat for ~5 years now in regards to multimedia.

A Zodiac 2, nice as it is, is a tad bit, lacking internal wi-fi and has SD slots hobbled with a maximum capacity of 2gb each. A TX with a 4gb SD card is nearly as good as an mp3/video player while having superior pocketability and PIM functions.

Palm should have pushed the Zire 31 and HARD as an mp3 player that did "other stuff". The Z22 should have an SD slot & headphone jack. ALL Treos should have A2DP or at least a 3.5mm headphone jack. PalmDesktop should have been seriously overhauled 4 years ago with built-in media functionality and online integration.



Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5-->TX-->Treo 700P

RE: Apple froze the smartphone market.
Gekko @ 6/18/2007 5:57:05 PM # Q

let's not forget that a big reason for the ipod's success has been due to:

1. ipod's intuitive, best of breed GUI for media playing.
2. itunes and its revolutionizing of the distribution of music.
3. Apple's smart marketing.

the leadership at palm was not smart enough to create any of the above.



Reply to this comment

and ...

sgiga @ 6/16/2007 4:00:07 AM # Q
What a strange article. A whole page with personal opinions about marketing with a conclusion that marketing doesn't really matter afterall.

I just do not get the iPhone hype. The more I look at it, the more certain I am that it will be a big flop. A phone with touch screen only is simply a very poor combination, nice gadget, but a useless phone. How can such a phone possibly replace a traditional smart phone with some kind of proper keyboard? How are anyone going to use the iPhone for emailing, SMS'ing? Even dialing a simple phone number requires two hands and constant attention Maybe together with a Foleo kind of device it will be usable sometime in the future, but two separate devices at 500$ each just to write e-mail?

My T3 and (dumb)phone is getting old. Still very functional except the phone functionality of the T3 software which is getting old. My new device will be this one, the SE P1:

http://www.sonyericsson.com/spg.jsp?cc=gb&lc=en&ver=4000&template=pip1&zone=pp&pid=10864

Now, THAT is a phone ...

RE: and ...
heavyduty @ 6/16/2007 6:30:37 AM # Q
Before you plunge into UIQ you should take a look at this wish list:

http://www.allaboutsymbian.com/features/item/A_Plea_to_Developers__10_UIQ_3_Applications_Wishlist.php

#1 makes UIQ a no-go for me.

Palm Vx (a classic) -> Palm 505 (*yawn*) -> Dell Axim (slooow...) -> Palm TE (great) -> Qtek 9090 (great idea, lousy platform) -> Nokia 6630 (a toy) -> iMate SP3i (not bad) -> Nokia 9300 (can't sync notes!!) -> Treo 650 (awesome) -> hw6915 (almost perfect)

RE: and ...
Radu Coc @ 6/16/2007 2:53:46 PM # Q
Personally I think a bigger screen with the keys in the screen (and not hardware buttons) is WAY MUCH BETTER than a phone with hard buttons. That is why iPhone has maked waves into the smartphone market. Useful and configurable soft interface versus old hardkey buttons interface. And yes, a soft interface is uzable. Im using my Zire72 with the finger touches and is working very well.

RE: and ...
LiveFaith @ 6/16/2007 6:08:37 PM # Q
Besides utter shock, disbelief and bewilderment, I wonder what the reception around here would be if the "iPhone" were the "next big thing" proposed by Hawkins. HVGA pushed to the edges etc.

Hehe. Servers would probably be shut down in overload.

Pat Horne

RE: and ...
VampireLestat @ 6/16/2007 7:04:55 PM # Q
I think Palm will copy the iPhone; unless it flops which I doubt.

To joad,
Don't go all mental on me. Take a deep breath before you go off on your pre-programmed rant. I didnt write anything offensive, and when I wrote "poodles with pink ribbons" I knew I had to type an explanation because people like you have a mental block then go ballistic like a pitbul. Which explains why people like Gekko are unfortunately furious at the "liberal left".
I actually appreciate Ryan editing my post because I had no way to remove it and I couldnt be bothered emailing him. Then again, now with my explanation gone and your post I now appear as being homophobic; WHICH I AM NOT!

I am not commenting on this issue anymore. I wanted to clarify for fear if being badly perceived.

RE: and ...
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 6/16/2007 8:13:10 PM # Q
Besides utter shock, disbelief and bewilderment, I wonder what the reception around here would be if the "iPhone" were the "next big thing" proposed by Hawkins. HVGA pushed to the edges etc.

Hehe. Servers would probably be shut down in overload.

Pat Horne

Pat, you proposed a model around THREE years ago (the Treo 800g) that would in essence have been Palm's version of the iPhone. Palm could easily have released such a model 2 1/2 years before the iPhone's expected released date. Had Palm released the Treo 800g, the company would still be the smartphone design leader today, rather than a rapidly-fading has-been.

http://www.palminfocenter.com/comments/7073/#96697

Can you upload the Treo 800g photos again?


TVoR

RE: and ...
VampireLestat @ 6/16/2007 8:17:33 PM # Q
TVoR,

iPhone spec says: "Input method Multi-touch"

What is multi-touch? Did that even exist 3 years ago? Perhaps Palm could not have done the iPhone 3 years ago.

RE: and ...
VampireLestat @ 6/16/2007 8:19:31 PM # Q
Oh my God... look at this http://www.apple.com/iphone/technology/

* staring in quiet awe, in fear for Palm *

FLASH vs. FUNCTION. iPhone vs. Treo. Apple vs. Palm. Who'll win?
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 6/16/2007 8:44:38 PM # Q
TVoR,

iPhone spec says: "Input method Multi-touch"

What is multi-touch? Did that even exist 3 years ago? Perhaps Palm could not have done the iPhone 3 years ago.


Multi-touch is nothing more than a gimmick. It's no big deal to simply tap an area of a screen once, but many iPhone users are quickly going to realize the folly of slip-sliding their greasy fingers all over their (initially)-pretty iPhone screens every time they want to do something. The Treo's D-pad is a much more intelligent design and a small D-pad could easily have been added to a 320 x 480 keyboardless Treo. Also, a full-screen Treo could easily have been shipped with a CLIE-style jog dial in order to facilitate faster navigation.

If you've ever used a laptop that has an IBM TrackPoint-like pointing stick and compared it to a typical laptop's touchpad, you'll understand why nudging physical buttons make more sense than moving your fingers around on a screen/pad. Palm's decision to include a pointing stick on the FOOLeo suggests that their designers are not quite completely brain-dead. Yet.

TVoR


RE: and ...
VampireLestat @ 6/16/2007 9:05:32 PM # Q
Multi-touch =
a) flick (like on a laptop) aka slide gently.
b) tap (like on a laptop): Uses eletro-detection.
c) pinch (I presume like on Palms, based on pressure)

http://www.apple.com/iphone/technology/sensors.html
Sensors =
a) IR proximity detector which shuts down the screen when its close to your ear.
b) Ambient light detector (adjusts screen auto)
b) accelerometer, auto landscape/portrait when rotating iphone.

wow

Is Palm now allowed to steal all those ideas? or are there patents?

RE: and ...
VampireLestat @ 6/16/2007 9:10:01 PM # Q
hmm... but notice there is no mention of PIM.
If there is no PIM, that might stop me from buying.
Will this thing run OS X applications?
Maybe Apple wants 3rd party devs to program a PIM suite.

iPhone is pure HYPE. Don't belive the hype
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 6/16/2007 9:33:24 PM # Q
iPhone is a CLOSED platform - you won't be able to install 3rd party apps on your $500 "smartphone". Not too smart.

Of course, for the people that the iPhone will appeal to, this isn't too much of a negative, since the device will be shipping with most of the applications that they would ever want. (Or at least most of the applications that His Steveness TELLS THEM that they would ever want...)

RE: and ...
twrock @ 6/16/2007 10:03:43 PM # Q
Maybe Apple wants 3rd party devs to program a PIM suite.

Only if that suite runs within the limitations of their Safari browser. But not to worry, Steve knows what you "really" want.

http://tinyurl.com/yuwwtm
http://www.pikesoft.com/blog/index.php?itemid=190


Thinking about Vista? Think again: http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/pubs/vista_cost.txt
Want an alternative? Try this: http://www.ubuntu.com/ or http://www.mepis.org/

RE: and ...
twrock @ 6/16/2007 10:07:40 PM # Q
(Oops, should have refreshed my browser before posting. Yeah, what he said.)


Thinking about Vista? Think again: http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/pubs/vista_cost.txt
Want an alternative? Try this: http://www.ubuntu.com/ or http://www.mepis.org/
RE: and ...
freakout @ 6/16/2007 10:17:43 PM # Q
TVoR:
It's no big deal to simply tap an area of a screen once, but many iPhone users are quickly going to realize the folly of slip-sliding their greasy fingers all over their (initially)-pretty iPhone screens every time they want to do something

Yep. His Steveness can denigrate the stylus all he likes, but there are plenty of times when I'd rather use that than push my grubby fingers all over the screen. On a hot day, my Treo's screen can gets very tacky very fast. iPhone is going to exacerbate this problem. And people better hope that screen is more scratch-resistant than the iPod...

Vamp:
a) IR proximity detector which shuts down the screen when its close to your ear.

Nothing more than a (admittedly cool) gimmick. The only reason you'd need it would be if you were a stupid enough software designer to put touchscreen buttons at the top of the screen where your ear will mash them. Waste of power to have an IR sensor running all the time. (some will argue that it saves power by shutting the screen down, but since nearly every other phone on the planet already does that automatically after about 30 seconds or so, I'm not really seeing the savings.)

b) Ambient light detector (adjusts screen auto)

Again it's cool, but doesn't really add much - unless your device has such a small, puny battery that you need to save every spare erg of power...

b) accelerometer, auto landscape/portrait when rotating iphone.

Now that is useful. And cool.

The coolest things about the iPhone are its excellent-looking browser, the landscape screen and the wi-fi. All easily matched by competitors. The rest is just hype. Don't be fooled! It's not the Holy Grail of Phones. Not by a long shot.

Tim
I apologise for any and all emoticons that appear in my posts. You may shoot them on sight.
Treo 270 ---> Treo 650 ---> Crimson Treo 680

RE: and ...
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 6/16/2007 10:38:46 PM # Q
>>>b) accelerometer, auto landscape/portrait when rotating iphone.

Now that is useful. And cool.

It's also in my (year old) Canon SD700 digital camera. And I ended up turning off the feature because it got annoying - sometimes I want to decide I'm going to view things. The auto switching became intrusive.

TVoR

RE: and ...
LiveFaith @ 6/17/2007 12:43:26 AM # Q
Tim,

Good analysis IMO. The cool factor is through the roof, but the reality is going to send a lot of Palm / HTC / SS / Sony / Moto switchers back home in a hurry. If all I want to do in the priority that I want to do it is hit squarely by this phone in OEM form, then it's outta this world. Otherwise, you had better stick to real (relatively mundane) Treo, HTC & Nokia etc smartfones.

List list of can't dos is very long on the iPhone. I hope that doesn't give Palm anymore bad ideas.

BTW, accelerometer was standard on my Kodak DC290 digicam in 1999. Loved that feature and it's nice to see Apple include it. Surely they'll allow turning it off tho. I lay in bed on my side often and read Scripture, web, docs, and or e-mail with my Treo in portrait. The iPhone would go L/S when I may not want it too.

Pat Horne

RE: and ...
LiveFaith @ 6/17/2007 1:31:10 AM # Q
VR,
Heres the 800g. But it should be noted that the Treo 480v was designed first alongside the Treo 600. It was the forerunner of the 800g. Palm bought both designs and a few others from me and patented them. That way they made sure that nobody else could produce them, which helps their potential as a future takeover target. Ingenious.

Treo 480v ...
http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa125/livefaith/treo480v.jpg

Treo 800g ...
http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa125/livefaith/treo800g.jpg


Ahhh, both forerunners of the iPhone. So close, yet so far away. :-

Pat Horne

RE: and ...
freakout @ 6/17/2007 6:37:20 PM # Q
TVoR
It's also in my (year old) Canon SD700 digital camera. And I ended up turning off the feature because it got annoying - sometimes I want to decide I'm going to view things. The auto switching became intrusive.

Sounds about right. But this is an Apple product, and like all Apple products It Knows Better Than You Do™. So don't worry, iPhone's screen switcher will be perfect. Don't question it. Go with the flow, baby. ;)

LiveFaith:
BTW, accelerometer was standard on my Kodak DC290 digicam in 1999. Loved that feature and it's nice to see Apple include it. Surely they'll allow turning it off tho. I lay in bed on my side often and read Scripture, web, docs, and or e-mail with my Treo in portrait. The iPhone would go L/S when I may not want it too

An amusing thought struck me as I was reading this. I had visions of iPhone users accidentally covering the IR sensor with dirt, grime or their fingers, frantically tapping at the screen, wondering why it wouldn't respond, getting more and more frustrated until they start yelling. To quote Seldom: Giggle.

It's unlikely to be so poorly engineered, of course, but the old maxim always holds: the more you put in it, the more that can go wrong with it.

Tim
I apologise for any and all emoticons that appear in my posts. You may shoot them on sight.
Treo 270 ---> Treo 650 ---> Crimson Treo 680

Reply to this comment

Have Palm's Windows™ of opportunity closed?

The_Voice_of_Reason @ 6/16/2007 9:23:44 PM # Q
http://www.palminfocenter.com/comments/8140/#113847


Palm PC? Too late, Bubba.
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 10/13/2005 8:44:48 PM #

Yeah, based on the statements of Hawkins it'll most likely be a "PC in your pocket" type thing not a true PDA like we have known. If they wait for Linux/POS then they would potentially have a PDA that runs Linux at the core with some sort of a PalmOS interface, then you dock it at your desktop to a Monitor/Keyboard and it runs a desktop WindowManager (like KDE, WindowMaker, etc) on the same Linux Core. Same data, same apps, just a better presenatation for the Desktop. THAT's what a "LifeDrive" should be. One machine, both a PDA and a Desktop at the same time.

And while we're at it, aren't electronics supposed to get smaller as time goes on? Why are Palm PDA's GROWING in size each year? Geez, the next thing from Palm might end up being the same size as the Newton (OMP that is, they have a few more cycles to grow to the 2100)

I've been arguing that Palm neededto explore the possibilities of making a Palmtop™ (a micro laptop). Palm execs felt otherwise and without a true multitasking OS, such a device would face the same limitations that users of the CLIE UX50 (the best Palmtop™ ever sold) users struggle with daily.

Only problem is that - as the Sony U series is showing - Real Windows™ in a tiny package is close to being perfected. I expect most people will prefer to work with Real Windows™ apps rather than using ones that can just sync with/have partial compatibility with Real Windows™. Had Palm been able to release PalmLinux in 2003 and sell the Palmtop™ idea to businesses as a way to cut down on support costs for employees that don't REALLY need to be given Real Windows™ laptops. In the past 2 years, Palm could have entrenched itself as a supplier of inexpensive, stable, easy-to-support laptop replacements. Now we're almost in 2006. The "Windows™" of opportunity are closed.

Take a look at this thread:

http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7541#103141

And here's a funny blast from the past:

http://www.palminfocenter.com/view_story.asp?ID=1160

TVoR

------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.


Beersy showed Palm working too slowly to get product out in time:
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 6/16/2007 9:47:20 PM # Q
Another post from 2005 suggesting how long the FOOLeo has been in development"

http://www.palminfocenter.com/comments/8140/#113709


Palm's extracurricular Linux activities
cervezas @ 10/12/2005 11:47:34 AM #

Nothing definite, of course...

First, recall that we heard almost a year ago that Palm was working on Linux stuff from the same people who correctly stated they were working with Windows Mobile. This was even before PalmSource announced their Linux plans, in fact.

Fast forward to today: we've got a member of this community who appears to be within PSI talking about a Linux clamshell device they are aware of being developed within Palm. And we've got Palm showing up as a customer on Wind River's website (which doesn't mean they are customer for Wind River's consumer Linux platform, but it could). And we've got LinuxDevices.com saying they've been told that Palm is developing devices on a Wind River Linux OS... but seeming to get the "phone" part of that leak wrong, since it's in direct conflict with public statements by Palm executives.

Any one of these is easily discounted, but together they start to add up to a picture, especially in the current context of Palm's business.

Palm has finally made definite statements that they will replace Garnet with Palm OS for Linux once PalmSource has it ready. According to ITWeek, Ken Wirt said Palm is "waiting for PalmSource to port the Palm environment to Linux before moving away from Palm OS 5." But that doesn't mean that they couldn't have non-Palm Linux products along side their Garnet products for a period of time. And just because Colligan said there weren't any plans for (non-Palm) Linux or Symbian *Treos* doesn't mean they wouldn't consider a new Linux platform for a device that is not a phone.

Basically, I'm thinking that all this sounds like the first rumblings of devices from Hawkins' infamous "Third Business" coming on the wind. If it's as "disruptive" a device class as Hawkins claims, it wouldn't be surprising that Palm thought it would need a different kind of middleware than Palm OS will provide for Linux.

David Beers


RE: Have Palm's Windows™ of opportunity closed?
Gekko @ 6/16/2007 9:51:08 PM # Q

3 years to create a dumb terminal. amazing.



RE: Have Palm's Windows™ of opportunity closed?
twrock @ 6/16/2007 10:22:36 PM # Q
Re: "Has Palm Brainwashed You?"

I suppose to some extent that was part of the picture. But I do find that I'm truly tired of all of the bloat that comes from the "Wow! Look at this great new feature/program/function!" and "more is always better" mentality.

Why am I very happy choosing to run Linux on my dual-boot laptop instead of Windows? Because I find it to be more "lean", quicker to boot, quicker to shut down, and simpler to maintain (and more stable as well). In the form I choose to run it, it is simply "simpler". I don't think I'm being brainwashed into wanting something to be simpler. I'm choosing that with a very open mind.

(Of course you choosecan add as much bloat to Linux as you want to as well, so YMMV.)


Thinking about Vista? Think again: http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/pubs/vista_cost.txt
Want an alternative? Try this: http://www.ubuntu.com/ or http://www.mepis.org/

RE: Have Palm's Windows™ of opportunity closed?
twrock @ 6/16/2007 10:27:28 PM # Q
(Sheesh. Not enough sleep. You know what I meant.)


Thinking about Vista? Think again: http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/pubs/vista_cost.txt
Want an alternative? Try this: http://www.ubuntu.com/ or http://www.mepis.org/
RE: Have Palm's Windows™ of opportunity closed?
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 6/16/2007 10:28:37 PM # Q
Geeko, cut them a little slack before opening fire. I'm betting that the FOOLeo concept is mainly about the SOFTWARE and SYNCING - the hardware is actually a minor detail. Palm's biggest problem right now is that they have made a mess of the FOOLeo's introduction (does this company even have a marketing department?), essentially positioning it as a completely useless device. Unfortunately, first impressions last. Presumably, they weren't confident enough to position the FOOLeo concept as a total replacement for Windows/Mac laptops. Or else they were forced to limit the features that were mentioned because their other software STILL is not yet ready...


TVoR

RE: Have Palm's Windows™ of opportunity closed?
Gekko @ 6/16/2007 11:38:22 PM # Q

If it's a shit product, marketing won't help.


RE: Have Palm's Windows™ of opportunity closed?
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 6/17/2007 12:19:57 AM # Q
If it's a shit product, marketing won't help.

That hasn't been the experience with Apple. Conversely, companies like HandEra have shown that superb products are often ignored if they aren't marketed properly.

In any event, I'm going to wait until the FOOLeo is actually released before condemning it to death and stoning Hawkins and his biotch, Colligan. Similarly, I would suggest consumers wait until the iPhone is actually released before declaring it the greatest thing since sliced bread.

Palm has had two or three years to develop the FOOLeo concept. They also reportedly diverted most of their more talented codemonkeys into the FOOLeo project (which would explain why the company had so many problems fixing all of the bugs that cropped up in PalmOS 5). Do you REALLY think that the piece of crap that Hawkins demonstrated is ALL the company has up its sleeve?

At the risk of sounding like a Beersy-style Palm Apologist, I'm going to stick my neck out and go on record predicting that Palm will soon be delivering the most significant innovation in mobile computing since Handspring released the brilliant Treo 600.

[Palm should be VERY worried that it's starting to look like TVoR - Palm's harshest critic over the years - seems to be the only one defending the FOOLeo. They really need to do some damage control ASAP by leaking some more information about the FOOLeo's capabilities. An "anonymous" YouTube video showing a FOOLeo loaded with PIM, spreadsheet, word processing, database, multimedia, etc. applications and syncing to corresponding online +/- handheld applications would go a LONG way towards quellng the impending revolt by the Palm Faithful.]



TVoR

RE: Have Palm's Windows™ of opportunity closed?
LiveFaith @ 6/17/2007 1:00:51 AM # Q
Do you guys remember when ...

Cobalt was in it's heyday, about 3-4 months before the much glamorized Jan 1 ship date to licensees? It was right about the time of the spinoff, Handspring absorption, and Sony was still in the game etc etc. Everybody pretty much expected greatness and debate raged about head to head with M$ etc. Nagel was talking about all the devices that Cobalt would turn to glory. He said in so many words that "Palm was shopping for a licensee to build a laptop around it." This was the first thing I thot of when I saw HNGT (Hawkins next great thang) leaked. I remember helping Palm with this concept device which they purchased, downgraded, and called it Foleo. :-D

http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa125/livefaith/laptop.jpg


@ marketing ...
The week before the insane PSP retail rollout, I was in a EB Games store (Electronics Boutique) that was ready for the rush. As my kids were digging through the games, I struck conversation with the manager/owner, who handed me a PSP demo unit that I tinkered with a bit. I asked him what he thought about the Tapwave Zodiac (2 yr old BTW) and how it would compare to the PSP. He asked my what a Zodiac was. Nuff said about marketing I guess.

Pat Horne

RE: Have Palm's Windows™ of opportunity closed?
SeldomVisitor @ 6/17/2007 7:47:22 AM # Q
Hawkins' revisionist view on history aside ("We made a prototype outta foam board five years ago!), we know that =4= years ago there were two diametrically-opposed camps internal to PALM, one Colligan/Hawkins that pumped the "converged device is a single device" POV, one Ken Wirt who pumped "converged device can be multiple communicating devices". That changed to a single Ken-Wirt-style orientation only 3 years ago, at least publically.

So 2004-ish is probably most accurate for Fooleo-first-thoughts.

RE: Have Palm's Windows™ of opportunity closed?
twrock @ 6/17/2007 8:40:19 AM # Q
Hawkins' revisionist view on history aside ("We made a prototype outta foam board five years ago!), ....

Awesome! So you were there, seeing and hearing all of this. That's cool!

So what else did Hawkins do? What are the other design ideas that he's "not" been working on? Did you get to work with him often? How often did you get to meet with him and/or Colligan? Were they interested in any of your product ideas? What were those? Any other anecdotal stories you can share with us about your experiences? It's great to hear from an insider about all of this stuff.

It'd be really cool if you could write up some of your experiences for an article here on PIC.


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RE: Have Palm's Windows™ of opportunity closed?
SeldomVisitor @ 6/17/2007 8:41:15 AM # Q
Being an apologist can-do-no-wrong fanboy doesn't change recorded history.

RE: Have Palm's Windows™ of opportunity closed?
twrock @ 6/17/2007 8:54:28 AM # Q
...and implying that Hawkins is lying and that you "really" know what happened is simply absurd. Just as absurd as your insistence that I am a "fanboy" after all of the criticism I have regularly heaped on Palm on this site. Seems that "revisionist history" is one of your forte's.

But by all means, show me that "recorded history" of which you speak. I'll be happy to have a look. I will be happy to read it, and I will readily admit it if I am wrong. Or is this just another example of how you want your "conclusions" to be "facts"? How about the links?


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RE: Have Palm's Windows™ of opportunity closed?
SeldomVisitor @ 6/17/2007 9:52:34 AM # Q
PALM has removed the links to the archived events - perhaps somewhere "on the Net" the archived events still exist in some form.

=================

However, HERE:

-- http://discussion.treocentral.com/showpost.php?p=272891&postcount=3

is a contemporaneous comment made the day after the event where it was noted there were two camps at PalmOne. Note that the comment comments on Hawkins' and Wirt's words from the day before in November 2003, a mere =4= years ago.

As an apologist can-do-no-wrong fanboy you will say something like:

== "Linking to an unsupported opinion from yourself!!"

completely ignoring that the original not-that-controversial post told readers multiple times to go listen to the previous-day's event themselves.

Note carefully the word "overt" in the linked post - that means, due to the way I use the word "overt", that the parties in question actually outright stated whatever the "overt" was about (for ALL such uses of the word "overt" in ANY of my posts about anything), not that there was an indirect implication or something equally ambiguous.

And here, from 2004, is a comment, again contemporaneously from myself, where I note the change in the Colligan/Hawkins stance to that of Wirt:

-- http://discussion.treocentral.com/showpost.php?p=338530&postcount=9

BTW, I distinctly remember that these TreoCentral posts were mere summaries of much-more detailed SETS of posts I made on the Yahoo Financial message board. I don't remember WHAT I said there but I DO remember being surprised by the turnaround and posting - probably interacting with other posters - much more detailed about both incidents.

Unfortunately, one of my more Obsessed Fans complained a few months ago about a bunch of "Don't Forget Now!" joke posts of mine and got Yahoo to erase YEARS of my posts on the PALM/PLMO boards so I can't link to them! Here's an example of a thread where MY post has been deleted but others have not - May 2004:

-- http://tinyurl.com/yvmtvo

So - contemporaneous to Colligan's/Hawkins' stance on what a converged device is in 2003 comments were made in multiple places. Contemporaneous to Colligan's/Hawkins' CHANGED stance to be what Wirt had said all along were made in 2004 in multiple places.

And, of course, those were simply contemporaneous uncontroversial comments made on overt statements by those in question, not controversial-in-fanboy-heads present-day comments on how those in question are attempting to revise recorded history.

Do you have a hidden agenda, SeldomVisitor/hengeem?
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 6/17/2007 2:15:46 PM # Q
Looking at the Yahoo message board for Palm we see the following post about your alter ego, "hengeem" in the "Poor bastard" thread by seldom.vis... [13-Jun-07 11:23 pm]

http://messages.finance.yahoo.com/mb/PALM:

Poor bastard (3 Ratings) 13-Jun-07 11:23 pm For those of you who been around less than a year, a couple of facts you should know about hengeem.

1) When he first came on this board almost 5 years ago, he was exposed by one of his coworkers as the guy that got fired from Palm (at that time, Handspring) because he objected to the company's new direction in smartphones, and thought the company should stick with pda's. He kept telling everyone "Treo will not save us" and they "will never sell more than a 1000 of them" (later revised to 10,000, then 100,000; as far as I know he gave up after that). Anyway, they put his rear end out to pasture.

2) First thing he does is goes to the Treo forum board, signs up as "Seldom_Visitor" and starts papering the boards with his ranting and raving. Eventually, he is kicked off by the board moderator.

3) So he moves to the Yahoo msg board, and is here ever since. He begins by boasting that he has mortgaged his house to short Palm at a split-adjusted 5. Not clear whether he ever covered this. Perhaps not, which is why he is still around.

4) Over the last 5 years, apparently he has become so palm and treo-obsessed that his wife left him, taking the kid.

5) On days the stock shoots up, he is nowhere to be found.

6) He spends 24 hours a day scouring the entire Web looking for any negative piece of info on Palm. When he can't find any, he resorts to making it up.

7) Now a bachelor, he has taken to visiting the local leather bar, where he likes to giggle.


Any more questions about Hengeem?


Wow, hengeem. Is that true? Say it ain't so, Little Buddy.

Giggle.

TVoR

RE: Have Palm's Windows™ of opportunity closed?
twrock @ 6/17/2007 3:55:54 PM # Q
SV, after reading your latest post and looking at your links, all I could think was "wow", and I don't mean that in a good way. It was the kind of "wow" one might say when they are confronted with something that boggles the mind because of its absurdity. But let me at least try to point out a couple of things, even though I really don't think there is any hope.

First, did you not see what I had quoted? Let me put it here again so that you are reminded:

Hawkins' revisionist view on history aside ("We made a prototype outta foam board five years ago!), ....

You have yet to show me anything that supports your assertion that Hawkins is revising history when he said that "we made a prototype outta foam board five years ago." So apparently I was right in concluding that you are just making this stuff up as you go along. It might be what you want to be true, but "wanting" doesn't necessarily make it so. Hawkins said he did make it; you (a person who obviously was not there at that time and place) said he didn't. How can you possibly suggest that I believe you just because you want it to be true? I'd have to be nuts!

Now, I should probably just stop right here, because that is the whole point I was trying to make in my previous posts. But since you offered so much "evidence" to support the rest of your "statement", I guess I will continue.

I will quote someone who somewhere made a statement that I thought was true. It went something like this:

Linking to an unsupported opinion from yourself!!

How true; how true. You can't honestly think that linking to your own posts can be "proof" of anything, can you? And whether or not I am a "fanboy" doesn't change that one bit. So please don't try to create a smokescreen by attempting to insult me with a label.

In our previous arguments here on PIC, I have made a point of giving you links back to the "sources", not links to posts I wrote where I was drawing my conclusions about what the sources meant. You could look at those links. You could read the same things that I read. You could argue back in an attempt to show that I was a complete nincompoop for concluding what I had. But at least you have to admit that I didn't try to insult your intelligence by asking you to accept my conclusion as "findings of fact". Please don't insult my intelligence by asking me to do that very thing.

However, with regard to the links you gave me, I did look at them. Maybe I'm missing something, but I'm not sure that there is anything worth arguing or discussing there. If there wasn't arguments within the Palm leadership about what direction to go and what paradigm to adopt in the future, I'd be quite surprised. Maybe instead you can try to explain what is so significant about that.

In the mean time, I need some sleep.


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RE: Do you have a hidden agenda, SeldomVisitor/hengeem?
SeldomVisitor @ 6/17/2007 4:45:49 PM # Q
Well of COURSE I do!

Good Lord Almighty!

Since when is a post by someone who names his Yahoo ID after my TreoCentral/PalmInfoCenter ID NOT believable in its entirety!

Sheesh...some people.

Giggle.

RE: Do you have a hidden agenda, SeldomVisitor?
SeldomVisitor @ 6/17/2007 4:51:04 PM # Q
Oopsie! I forgot to edit the Subject!

Please note that "hengeem" here is one of my Obsessed fans, R.E. Lyons, who has taken on my Yahoo ID here due to his obsession (*). It isn't me.

Note, too, that "hengeem" on TreoCentral is ALSO one of my Obsessed Fans - regardless hwat the long gone immodertate moderator WhatATool (or whatever his ID was) lied about, I only used SeldomVisitor on TreoCentral - ever.

============

(*) Ahem - the obsession in this case is his obsession with me, not his historical obsession with public observations, his own and others, on sexual orientation.

What did Palm/Handspring do to you, hengeem/SeldomVisitor?
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 6/17/2007 5:43:35 PM # Q
Looking at your history on TreoCentral, Yahoo's PALM messageboard and here at Palminfocenter, it's quite plausible that someone at Palm/Handspring hurt you deeply several years ago, hengeem.

Tell me about how that made you feel, hengeem. Let it all come out. I'm here for you.

Did what they did to you make you want to "lash out"? It's OK to feel anger. It's OK to be ashamed. I don't judge you.

Reply to this comment

Anyways, back to the marketing theme of this thread.

VampireLestat @ 6/16/2007 9:29:12 PM # Q
I think Palm should announce its products ahead of time.
They invent nothing these days that the competition has not already thought about.
By announcing ahead of time, they can gauge consumer reaction and correct problems before they ship.
Palm has far more to gain by sneaking pics and specs out early and even openly announcing products early.

The Foleo announcement was good because now they know it will be a disaster. So they can adjust their strategies now.
There is no fixing the Foleo as its market simply does not exist because it is competing against laptops, even though Palm likes to believe it is not meant to replace a laptop.

The ONLY role the Foleo has is to replace a larger laptop. However the Foleo is an empty shell with extremely underpowered hardware, no software, no touchscreen, and it replies on having a Treo. Doesnt take a genius to figure out this will not sell.

Hawkins is right in that the future will be filled with Foleo sized laptops, but already Windows laptops are nearing the size of the Foleo and they are packed with dramatically more impressive hardware, software; and they are not all that expensive anymore.

Anyway, Palm has to copy the iPhone ASAP and increase the diversity of its lines.

The final war will be fought on software.
Apple is about to trigger a whole new universe of Mobile OS X programs.
There is only 1 thing that can compete against that, free Linux and open source.

Somehow though, I just get the feeling that all of the iPhones software is going to be snappy, smooth, pretty, powerful and fun to use.
I am not convinced Palm has the discipline and resources to wage a war against MacMobile software by building a whole new MobileLinux generation.

We will see.
Of course, I doubt Microsoft is going to allow Apple to take right over everything.


RE: Anyways, back to the marketing theme of this thread.
twrock @ 6/16/2007 10:24:42 PM # Q
Apple is about to trigger a whole new universe of Mobile OS X programs.

Please explain.


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RE: Anyways, back to the marketing theme of this thread.
VampireLestat @ 6/16/2007 10:46:42 PM # Q
There are zero iPhone mobile OS X programs out there right now.
Palm OS has around 25 000.
Once the iPhone is released, developers will start making Mobile OS X program; no?

RE: Anyways, back to the marketing theme of this thread.
VampireLestat @ 6/16/2007 11:00:38 PM # Q
The iPhone is a "closed device"?

bwaaaaaaaaaaaahahahahahahahahahahahaha
Then it's a piece of crap.

I thought it was completely open and an SDK would be released.
The latter and also lack of stylus will most definitely temper its sales.

You can't have a serious mobile computing device without 3rd party devs and a stylus.

Revisionist history
SeldomVisitor @ 6/28/2007 5:19:34 PM # Q
>> Hawkins' revisionist view on history aside ("We made a
>> prototype outta foam board five years ago!), we know that
>> =4= years ago there were two diametrically-opposed camps
>> internal to PALM, one Colligan/Hawkins that pumped the
>> "converged device is a single device" POV, one Ken Wirt
>> who pumped "converged device can be multiple communicating
>> devices". That changed to a single Ken-Wirt-style orientation
>> only 3 years ago, at least publically.
>>
>> So 2004-ish is probably most accurate for Fooleo-first-thoughts.

-- http://www.palminfocenter.com/comments/9005/#133844

How about that - Colligan just said PALM has been investing in the Fooleo for the last 3 years.

5 years, 3 years - about the same!

Giggle.

RE: Anyways, back to the marketing theme of this thread.
twrock @ 6/28/2007 7:35:31 PM # Q
LOL. "Revisionist history." Coming from you, that's hilarious! :)

(Now what was that you were saying? I can't see through the tears of laughter. No matter; it's likely something akin to "since 1=3 in my world, a truck is smaller than the color red".)


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Reply to this comment

going down in flames

itster @ 6/16/2007 11:01:19 PM # Q
i can't wait for palm to fold

RE: going down in flames
VampireLestat @ 6/16/2007 11:24:02 PM # Q
Palm isn't going anywhere in my opinion.
Despite Palm politics all the stupid errors, they still make amazing useful devices (TX, the little Zire, Treos, etc), they have expertise and they are in the right business.

- Little cheap phones often don't sync to your desktop and have no security, if you lose your phone you lose everything.
- Palms have tens of thousands of exciting programs. Anyone can program for it.
- Palms have a stylus.
- Palms have a touchscreen.
- Palm's Desktop software manages multiple profiles very simply, it is easy to use and Hotsync is friendly and just works.
- Palms sync over Wifi with great easy (unless WM which completely bans it).

And let's face it, although many of us complain, we are still here talking about Palm. Why? Because deep down we like Palm and we want them to succeed. You know what they say, we often hurt those we love the most.

* *violin playing** because I am being a bit too cheesy* hehehe

RE: going down in flames
LiveFaith @ 6/17/2007 1:06:55 AM # Q
* i can't wait for palm to fold *

Only a few more weeks. Just haaaang on. It's called Foleo, and it's only an inch thick too. :-D

Pat Horne

Reply to this comment

Open letter to Ben Combee + the rest of the FOOLeo design team

The_Voice_of_Reason @ 6/16/2007 11:49:54 PM # Q
OK, Ben, so your feelings were hurt by the universal rejection your baby has received so far:

http://unwiredben.livejournal.com/250258.html

Jakob Neilsen Doesn't Get the Foleo
I just read an article that usability expert Jakob Nielsen wrote about the Palm Foleo mobile companion, a device that my team is developing at Palm. Based on the date on the article, Jakob wrote this immediately after seeing the introduction of the device. By that time, I'm sure he actually got to use it, to hold it in his hands, see how it fits in his bag, and try out the built-in software. I'm sure he got to install a few third-party applications. I'm sure he got to do some thinking about how he uses computers and see if some aspects of that could be made simpler and more efficient.

Actually, I'm sure he didn't do any of that. I can tell by the tone of the article, which is all negative, and by what he doesn't say about the device.

First, he repeats the claim that you should just buy a small laptop that's been made all over the press. Well, people haven't been buying them, even though they've been around for a while. Perhaps its because they're too expensive.

Our device was sized based on the human interface, not on the available technology. We wanted a full sized keyboard without any of the compressed keys you see on lots of laptops. We wanted a place to rest your hands while typing or using the wheel or trackpoint. There's the basic width/height footprint. If you make the device smaller, you have a poorer user interface. Could we have made it thinner? Maybe, but you'd give up battery life because we wouldn't have as much room for power cells or you'd have a weaker case that didn't hold up to extended use.

Also, the use case for the Foleo isn't replacing your laptop. I don't expect many users to give up their laptop computer for this. However, having a device like this around means you don't need to get the tiny laptop that's got the small screen and the lower capabilities; you can replace your desktop system with a more capable laptop that's portable when you need it, even if it's usually docked and hooked up to all your gear. This is a device that can remotely access your system, your files, and your email. In a sense, it's as much of a companion for your laptop as it is a companion for your cell phone, as it supplements what both can do.

I've got a Dell Latitude D610 that I take with me to California. When I'm in the office, it's locked to my desk and has an Ethernet cable tethering it to the Palm network. At home, it's usually either up on my desk or downstairs on a table. It's pretty powerful, and the screen is very nice. However, if I want to take notes in a meeting, do research web browsing on the couch, go sit someplace nice to write a web posting, or play a game of solitaire, I grab my Foleo. I don't have to grab a power brick, I don't have to wait for it to boot up, and I don't have to do some weird shutdown key sequence when I'm done, I just close the lid.

Jakob makes a big deal about us not announcing full specs. They are coming -- he misses the point that we've not actually shipped the device yet. The D conference was a technology demo and a launch of the "idea" of Foleo, but we're still finalizing everything. Some of the ideas behind Foleo are very powerful. Instant on and instant off are big. They made PDAs useful, and it's taken a lot of work to get that same experience into a larger device. Email sync to a phone is really big; it introduces the idea that your data is going to by physically on you or close to you, and that other systems, be them big or small, get to the data through that. There's been a lot of talk about "clouds of data" out on the net. While that makes sense for the information that we all own, having the "master copy" of your own information be on a device that you carry with you all the time seems better from a usability and security view.

Yes, there are some limitations to the device. Some can be fixed by refining and adding to the software that we'll ship with it, some will have to wait for future versions. Some are artifacts of our team having to pick and choose from features to spend time on in order to actually ship the device.

I respect Mr. Nielsen; I've read many of his columns and several of his books. One of his tenets is testing things on actual users. I'm disappointed that he'd dismiss our idea without actually testing what we're doing.

Come on now, Ben. Given the way the FOOLeo was positioned at its introduction, what other kind of reaction were you expecting? After two or three years of development, Palm should have announced this device complete with a full suite of applications capable of syncing with online and smartphone PIM, email, spreadsheet, word processing, presentation, database, photo, audio, video, and personal finance data. Now THAT'S the kind of functionality that users could relate to and may allow them to understand why Palm thinks that they should be willing to shell out $500 for 2 1/2 pound non-Windows™ microlaptop. Your product is not even yet out and already today users can purchase a few dozen different lighter devices running Real Windows™ and not have to deal with the stigma associated with using non-Windows™ applications.

If you think that instant-on ability is going to be that big of a selling point, then you're sadly mistaken. Modern laptops can wake up within a few seconds. Furthermore, in its current state, the FOOLeo's size and battery life are not significant advantages over traditional Windows™ devices. Marketing 101 should have taught Palm that every device introduced needs to make it abundantly clear to consumers exactly which of their needs the device is fulfilling. Only then will consumers be able to decide whether or not their needs are worth justifying the asking price of the device. The FOOLeo's introduction leaves consumers wondering what needs it could possibly fulfill. If consumers have to actually think about ways in which a product may be useful to them, that product will be doomed to fail.

Compare:

Treo 700p = functional (but homely) design, cellphone, PIM data, PalmOS applications, wireless email, photos, MP3s, videos, SMS, games, mapping, Internet, etc., all in a small package.

iPhone = stylish, trendy, status symbol, cellphone, wireless email, photos, MP3s, videos, SMS, games, mapping, Internet, etc., all in a small package.

Fujitsu P1610 = stylish, Real Windows™ applications, etc., all in a small package.

Sony VAIO UX series UMPC = stylish, trendy, status symbol, Real Windows™ applications, wireless connectivity, etc., all in a small package.

Palm FOOLeo = functional (but homely) design, instant-on, relatively inexpensive, all in a small package. [BUT... proprietary operating system, no PalmOS applications, no Real Windows™ applications, limited multimedia, Palm's recent history of buggy software and substandard hardware, etc.] Are you REALLY surprised by the negative reaction of the media and end-users to the FOOLeo? This is the kind of marketing debacle one would have expected from HandEra - not Palm.

If Palm hopes to turn this around, they need to immediately explain to potential customers EXACTLY what needs the FOOLeo will fulfill that can't be handled by other devices. If you're not prepared to announce those unique features that the FOOLeo is capable of (or if the software needed to enable those features is STILL not yet ready) then the timing of your product announcement was extremely premature and Hawkins should have backed out of the conference once Palm realized that the device's software was far behind schedule. Apple was able to excite the public and generate a huge amount of buzz over its iPhone even though it brings relatively little other than a stylish design to the table. I'm expecting that the FOOLeo concept is a LOT more substantial than the iPhone fluff, but your company has utterly bungled the device's introduction. I truly hope these mistakes will not prove fatal for Palm.

TVoR
(Still giving you the benefit of the doubt... for now)


RE: Open letter to Ben Combee + the rest of the FOOLeo design tea
VampireLestat @ 6/17/2007 12:50:07 AM # Q
It's funny. The way Ben Combee describes the role of a Foleo is the same role I give TO MY PALM TX!!! ... which is pocketable.

If I want to run into the living room and check email or site, I should be doing that with a Palm TX 2 using an OLED 640 x 960 screen with no buttons on the front. I should be entering error free text at BLAZING SPEEDS with software keyboards using word prediction like WordLogic.

R - E - A - D M - Y L I P S: It has to be pocketable.

Let me explain something here on what the hell happened at Palm for them to conclude that the Foleo is a revolutionary product:

a) Palm is Treo-anal. They only see Treos. When they sleep, they count Treos, not sheep. So of course with that tiny little 320x320 Treo screen, they have to concoct a larger screen .... the Foleo.

b) They totally forgot about the incredible speed and advantage of software keybs and their word prediction.

The Foleo was spawned out of the need to have a) a bigger screen and b) a bigger keyb.
They forgot how critically important it is that the device remain pocketable and no dependant on a 2nd device called a Treo. See, in Palm's utopian world the Treo cannot be forgotten. Who the hell wants to sync the Foleo and Treo?! This is retarded people!

They failed. And dear Mr. Combee, I strongly recommend you find a way out of that team project because it is destined to fail. I am sure the members on the Foleo team can be put so much greater use on a handheld project with multiple radios or a Treo, or something, but get the hell away from the Foleo project asap.


RE: Open letter to Ben Combee + the rest of the FOOLeo design tea
VampireLestat @ 6/17/2007 12:57:58 AM # Q
I (I! me! yes me!) am a Palm product consumer; and I know what I want. I pretty much bought every Palm handheld ever made. The whole charm of mobile computing is that its hidden in my pocket, instant on and charming.

I have 2 laptops at home, 2 at work and a Palm TX in my pocket. WHY, (now please stop and think seriously for a moment here please), why would I integrate a Foleo into my life? (which would force me to buy a Treo of course). What the Foleo can do, my TX can do better with only slight modifications (larger screen frontal use and Wordlogic.com); which PALM FANS HERE HAVE BEEN SCREAMING FOR YEARS.

This Foleo is the result of the Treo obsession and blindness.

I hope to God these new Apple guys can talk some sense into the remaining Palm leaders.

RE: Open letter to Ben Combee + the rest of the FOOLeo design tea
LiveFaith @ 6/17/2007 1:05:20 AM # Q
Bono is now heir apparent voice of reason (no relation) at Palm now. Everything should stabilize quite nicely thank you.

Pat Horne
RE: Open letter to Ben Combee + the rest of the FOOLeo design tea
VampireLestat @ 6/17/2007 1:17:10 AM # Q
And I am going to make a prediction here tonight. Mark my words and quote me in a few years:

I hereby predict, that if Palm proceeds seriously with the Foleo.
Hawkins, like he is already hinting, will come out with a tiny keyboardless, stripped down Treo; his logic will be "Well you can have this ultra compact cool low cost Treo and not worry about its shortcomings because you can buy a Foleo companion! Yay!".

THEN... hehehe this is where it gets funny. Palm will start to realize they came full circle and they are back to the days when they were trying to promote use of the Palm TX in conjunction with smallest coolest tiny featureless cellphone.
Problem here is that instead of a cool pocketable TX, they will be presenting their consumers with a comparatively huge Foleo that no one will want because its not pockeatable. And since the Treo model will be stripped down, many people will end up buying cell phones from other companies.

Full circle. Just watch.

Look, this is all very simple. Consumers want 3 major things: cellular, mp3s and then the rest encompassing general mobile computing (movies, docs, email, ebooks, games).
Palm has to calm down, splash some water in their face and do this:

a) Copy all the ideas and technology they legally can from the iPhone and HTC devices.
b) Take the dumb Treo, slap on a VGA (so PPC devs can port to PalmOS Linux) OLED screen with graphics chip, advanced keyboard software (pick up the phone and go talk to Wordlogic.com and make a deal for a Palm OS port).
c) Give it a new name.
d) Put the buttons on the side. And maybe 3 big plain ones on the front in order to protect the gaming market.
e) Copy the Iphone browser, the tap and zoom thingy. Quick slide touch screen.
f) Put the speakers on the front.
g) replaceable battery and camera like on the Treo now.
h) better soundchip than in the Tx.
i) little foot in the back for the device to stand up for speakephone and video showcasing/
j) SD
k) Wifi, Evdo and other radios.
l) Improve the pim with rollover and a few other usability features.
m) multitasking
n)easier security (biometric scan best, if not possible, simple password protect like on the HP rx1950)
o) better out of the box MP3, movie playback software. iPod consumers are used to ultra-simplicity. Make anything complicated and you lose them. And dont put Fn demos! Put deluxe versions!
p)standard stereo jack.
q) USB
r) Boolean searched in Palm Desktop.
on and on and on.

COME ON GUYS GET TO WORK!! Stop this Foleo nonsense. Time is a wastin.


RE: Open letter to Ben Combee + the rest of the FOOLeo design tea
twrock @ 6/17/2007 3:30:56 AM # Q
I think Ben is making a number of good points. I don't know if it is enough, but many of those points are what I have been thinking about.

I still don't think it's the "right" product for me, but I can see the "point".


Thinking about Vista? Think again: http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/pubs/vista_cost.txt
Want an alternative? Try this: http://www.ubuntu.com/ or http://www.mepis.org/

RE: Open letter to Ben Combee + the rest of the FOOLeo design tea
LiveFaith @ 6/17/2007 8:50:56 AM # Q
Sounds great Vampy. Except at Palms current rate, it would weigh 1.2 lbs and cost $2,750 with 8yr contract. You're talking cutting edge there.

Pat Horne
hawkins the emperor has no clothes
Gekko @ 6/17/2007 10:35:02 AM # Q

sorry ben, but the foleo is DOA.

i bet everyone at palm was afraid to tell hawkins, the emperor, that he had no clothes when he came up with this idea. of course, it was probably the only new idea that anyone in the company has had in the last 5 years.

now palm employees are stuck spinning, towing the company line, and passing out the kool aid.

customers aren't dumb and they're not going to by this pig. don't insult our intelligence.



RE: Open letter to Ben Combee + the rest of the FOOLeo design tea
SeldomVisitor @ 6/17/2007 11:06:37 AM # Q
More importantly, I think the "Fooleo Concept" is DOA, at least til a WHOLE BOATLOAD of new apps are released that ARE "sync compatible".

There is a VERY good reason the Fooleo was "demonstrated" with essentially NO software - there is no compatibility across the (PALM) ages in how applications treat data, thus no single automated sync program can easily be defined and programmed.

RE: Open letter to Ben Combee + the rest of the FOOLeo design team
Gekko @ 6/17/2007 11:22:19 AM # Q

given how buggy the palm pdas and treos have been over the last 5 years, how buggy do you think the foleo will be???


RE: Open letter to Ben Combee + the rest of the FOOLeo design tea
SeldomVisitor @ 6/17/2007 11:25:09 AM # Q
Indeed.

Theoretically, however, those buggy apps won't bring down the device AND bringing down that device won't freeze up your TREO.

Hmmm...let me think about that...inside a comm module, no response from dead Fooleo, poorly written TREO module...freeze...

Okay, maybe we'll have to wait to see what doesn't happen!

Giggle.

RE: Open letter to Ben Combee + the rest of the FOOLeo design team
Gekko @ 6/17/2007 11:38:36 AM # Q

possible fooleo tv commercial song?

F-F-F-Foolin'! Ah F-F-Foolin'!

http://youtube.com/watch?v=FaSD_TOSQjQ



RE: Open letter to Ben Combee + the rest of the FOOLeo design tea
SeldomVisitor @ 6/18/2007 4:25:29 PM # Q
> More importantly, I think the "Fooleo Concept" is DOA,
> at least til a WHOLE BOATLOAD of new apps are released
> that ARE "sync compatible".
>
> There is a VERY good reason the Fooleo was "demonstrated"
> with essentially NO software - there is no compatibility
> across the (PALM) ages in how applications treat data,
> thus no single automated sync program can easily be
> defined and programmed.

Base on the PR-fluffs that are beginning to come out of PALM (tonight) about "Foleo Software" it appears exactly this is how they'll get auto-sync working - require new apps.

Voja Lalich and Foleo
cervezas @ 6/18/2007 6:12:25 PM # Q
Congrats to Voja Lalich at MotionApps for getting the PIM piece in place on the Foleo. Voja is a very talented and innovative Palm developer who is already pushing the envelope of the relationship between the Palm and the desktop in intensely cool ways. It looks like his mExpenses applications does something I have never seen done before (but long talked about): it runs normally on the Palm device, but when paired with a PC displays the application on the desktop with a native Windows GUI. On the desktop it displays forms in a layout and size that is natural for the desktop, but the application isn't running on the PC: the data and application stay on the Treo the whole time.

http://www.motionapps.com/mexpenses/_treo680.jsp

Very cool idea, and very much in the "mobile is the new PC" spirit of the Foleo. I'll have to give it a try.

Sounds like Voja's new Foleo application uses synchronized data stores instead of always working off the one copy on the Treo like mExpenses:

http://investor.palm.com/pressdetail.cfm?ReleaseID=249868

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com/blog

Is the FOOLeo shipping with ANY software??? W T F???
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 6/19/2007 11:03:52 AM # Q
So once again Palm is hoping developers will do their work for them and make all of the software the device needs. well guess what: no one is going to be dumb enough to spend $500 on a FOOLeo and then go out and spend HUNDREDS MORE buying software Palm should have bundled for free:

PIM apps
Financial app
VNC app
FTP app
File manager
Zip utility
Backup utility
Photo viewer/editor
Database app
Video player
MP3 player
Word-compatible document editor
Excel-compatible spreadsheet editor

etc., etc


TVoR

Reply to this comment

The PC is dead

sgiga @ 6/17/2007 3:59:52 PM # Q
I am not ready to write off the Foleo – not yet. The Foleo is nothing more (or less) than a necessary consequence to the only logical path in which personal computing is heading. Maybe we are witnessing a revolution here? If we put two and two together it certainly is possible to look at it that way, but only time will tell.

A mobile phone does already today serve all the needs for communication (talk, banking, reserving tickets, internet, e-mail etc etc). The average person can do very well without a PC today, but will be lost without a mobile phone.

The mobile phone has already made wired phones, if not totally obsolete yet, then at least pretty irrelevant and redundant. The next thing the mobile phone will kill is the PC, it is inevitable. The only thing that is preventing it from happening today is that sometimes we need a larger screen and a keyboard, and therefore we need a PC. Surely a lot of people are dependent on the processing power and/or video capabilities of the PC, but that is in almost 100% related to work (serious work). As a "typewriter" for Office files, the PC is overpowered to the point of being a joke, and has already been so for a decade or more. Everybody knows it, but what can we do? There has been no viable alternative. A Sony PS III is much better suited for gaming, and has more processor power today than any PC will have in the foreseeable future.

I mean, just think about it. In a modern home, what device can you do without? The TV is needed, the stereo is needed, the mobile phone is surely needed, and the DVD/PSIII is also needed. All these devices serve particular purposes that no other device can do better. This has all to do with physical size (loudspeakers need to be large, phone needs to be small etc). What about the PC? With a laptop and WIFI surely a stationary PC is redundant, even though there is no way it is possible to make a laptop with better performance than a stationary PC for the same amount of money. The point is that a laptop is much more practical, it is much cooler, and it enables you to throw out the large, noisy and ugly brick of a stationary PC that is hooked up to a dozen wires collecting dust at some odd corner in the room. Still, the laptop is heavy, very expensive, hot, slow to boot, and you increasingly find that you are using it less and less because things are done quicker with the phone, a phone that you simply cannot do without in any case.

What you really want is something that makes the capabilities of the phone more practical. You want something that at an instant can be hooked up to your phone for typing and displaying. A laptop will never be such a device. A laptop will always be something you hook your phone up to, not the other way around. Maybe this seems like semantics, but in my opinion the difference is no less than mind boggling. Once you hook up your screen and keyboard to the phone, the PC is dead. At that point everything in the PC that does not directly enhance the phone will be redundant, irrelevant and useless. I think most people today when given a real choice for a set amount of money, will go for higher spec phone - lesser spec PC rather than the other way around. The Foleo is simply this logic followed to it’s ultimate and inevitable conclusion, and when this process finally is started it will amplify itself channelling even more money into phones and less into PCs.

Almost all the criticism I have read is about the Foleo being a scaled down laptop. While this is true from a technical point of view, it is a serious misunderstanding because the Foleo IS NO laptop. The Foleo will be the “killer app” for mobile phones vs PCs. I really do not see any other way. For business use, the PC will live on for some time, and certainly servers and so on. Linux will still keep some life in “personal” PCs. But for travelling and private everyday use, the PC will be dead within a few years.

RE: The PC is dead
SeldomVisitor @ 6/17/2007 4:53:31 PM # Q
Have you seen the Asus?

RE: The PC is dead
VampireLestat @ 6/17/2007 10:18:00 PM # Q
sgiga,

That is a Treo-centric vision where everything revolves and evolves around the phone.
That is where I am not sure your argument stands up. You 'could' be right though. It is a complicated projection into the future.

I think that the future of home/work computing will include Foleo-like devices that boot instantly, are quiet and are very compact/portable.

But what is wrong with a world of Foleos athome/work and iPhone-like expanded Treos, mobile computing centric devicesin our pockets?

And what is wrong with a world of tiny plain phones in 1 pocket and an ultra slim, large screen, powerful PIM and multimedia specialized handheld in another pocket?

The concept of "instant on" is a fantastic one that needs to be developed. The Foleo is a confused project in my mind. Don't forget that Vista now uses SD cards to boost performance and I think it already (or will soon) partially boot from flash rom on hard drives. So the instant-on thing for laptops is right around the corner.

I think Palm should focus on improving the Treo so that it becomes a more powerful multimedai device like a larger screen handheld with perfected software keyboard prediction (www.wordlogic.com) and an amazing enhanced PIM and overall software experience. I need that and many others need that. And the device should be priced fairly for all. I am not giving away my rights by locking myself down into a Treo carrier contract under the threat of paying hundreds of $ more for a Palm if I dont bend to the carriers. Sell devices full featured with wifi and cellular, priced fairly and if someone wants to sign up with a carrier then that is just one option among many. This sickly culture of bending to carrier threats e.g., wifi interdiction is not something I will endorse with my hard earned money.

RE: The PC is dead
VampireLestat @ 6/18/2007 1:51:03 AM # Q
sgiga,

I re-read your post a dozen times and analyzed every word and every concept repeatedly.
Your analysis has definitely got me thinking very deeply.

For fear of grossly contradicting everything I said in the past, you might actually be right. :-/ However, if I am wrong, I will admit it.

I need to think a lot more about this but your logic seems pretty strong; it is up there on the intellectual level of what I would expect from someone like Mr. Hawkins.

It is 'conceivable' that the near future might be one in which people have cells in their pocket for rapid fire in the field basic computing needs and when they settle down a bit, they can expand the experience via the Foleo.

You say that the Foleo is not meant to replace the laptop, but I think your logic leads down that path. I actually am starting to see the possibility of me porting over day to day personal life activities over to the Foleo and leaving the laptop in a special "just in case I need" room (gradually destined to be used less and less as time goes by and the Foleo application base and hardware specs improve).

hmm... You might have actually set in motion a working viable usability rationale in my head. You might have actually sparked something; for the first time I am actually considering buying a Treo and a Foleo and giving the next-gen concept a try.

RE: The PC is dead
VampireLestat @ 6/18/2007 1:52:51 AM # Q
And what I find appealing about the Foleo is the Linux base. I am very strong believer in an expanded open source future.

RE: The PC is dead
VampireLestat @ 6/18/2007 3:07:39 AM # Q
I am going to buy a Foleo.

So I just went to palm.com and they have a place where you can enter your email address to be notified when they ship.

Unfortunately this is the answer I got:
============
Service Unavailable - Zero size object
The server is temporarily unable to service your request. Please try again later.
Reference #15.a4ea7ce.1182150164.1bea7c6d
============


RE: The PC is dead
VampireLestat @ 6/18/2007 3:30:16 AM # Q
OK the email thingy on Palm's site works now.

To any early Foleo developers out there,

PLEASE program a little program that demos the Foleo but that hides all my private data. I know that if I bring a Foleo to work, people will constantly bug me with questions like:

"What is that?!"
"Can I see?"
"Show me how it works."
"Can I touch it?"

It is real annoying.

I don't want to be impolite and say "Look, I would love to, but I have personal info on there and I don't want people messing around in my Foleo".

RE: The PC is dead
VampireLestat @ 6/18/2007 4:08:09 AM # Q
Guys, I am a TX guy, so I know very little about Treos.

Is the Treo 680 a good choice to accompany the Foleo?
I am looking to buy it here:
http://canadastore.palm.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2573588&cp=1806915&parentPage=family

I am going to read up on all the Treo models but seems to me the 680 is a low cost fully featured, antenna-less, unlocked device that works in Canada. I don't actually need a powerhouse of a device. I mainly do PIM, MP3s, eBooks and the occasional movie.

I would appreciate any cautions or advice on the choice of the Treo and/or carrier in Canada. I think we pretty much only have a Bell and Rogers here.

I AM TAKING A LEAP OF FAITH AND TRUSTING JEEF HAWKINS ON THIS TREO+FOLEO CONCEPT ONLY BECAUSE HE IS THE INVENTOR OF THE PILOT. I hope I am not wasting my money.



RE: The PC is dead
VampireLestat @ 6/18/2007 5:14:06 AM # Q
Just ordered a Treo 680 from Palm.com
I am going to get a cheap Rogers phone plan. Always good to have a cell as an emergency. Going to cancel my local phone and switch to DSL dry loop.
As for data, being a Canadian, I can pretty much forget about ever using a Treo to download anything. The data plans here are simply gouging. That is one of the reasons I have never bought a Treo before.
But since this Foleo has Wifi and it pushes data both up and down w/Treo, it changes the calculation.
This 680 is unlocked, so that was a appealing.

Palm can thank Hawkins' Foleo for making me make the jump to the Treo.

RE: The PC is dead
SeldomVisitor @ 6/18/2007 7:53:09 AM # Q
> ...The data plans here are simply gouging. That is one of
> the reasons I have never bought a Treo before....

but also:

> ...But since this Foleo has Wifi and it pushes data both up
> and down w/Treo, it changes the calculation...

Hmmm...

Vampy: CANCEL YOUR ORDER!!! You have been warned.
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 6/18/2007 10:00:06 AM # Q
VampBubba, are you insane? Read your posts here - they sound like a babbling stream of consciousness. The FOOLeo has not even been released yet, has not been reviewed yet, and we don't even know what (if any) other applications will be available for it yet. If developers ignore it (as they likely will), you'll be stuck with whatever programs Palm's "skilled codemonkeys" have been able to cobble together (which right now doesn't look like a he11 of a lot). And remember, this is a company so clueless that it couldn't even program its own email application. First Palm bought MultiMail/VersaMail and then quickly turned that program into utter crap and now they've had to go out and buy ChatterEmail. Very reassuring.

The whole point of Treos is the fact that they allow you to have a wireless connection (email, web) wherever you may be, in addition to PDA data. If you can't afford a data plan with a Treo, then it makes the whole concept of having one and putting up with the small screen rather pointless. In that case, you're better off getting a good, simple, TINY dumbphone and the best traditional large-screened PDA (a Sony CLIE TH55) and keep syncing with your laptop.

Whatever you do, don't get caught up with all of this hype. Make your choices intelligently and then you'll be less likely to get burned. Weren't you saying just a few weeks ago that you would be leaving PalmOS behind? I would suggest you sit down, take a deep breath, and think about what you NEED in terms of equipment.

As I've tried to explain in the past few days, the FOOLeo concept is definitely intriguing. But it's one thing to go from concept to reality. After seeing how many mistakes Palm has made with the Treo (a device that was already almost perfected by Handspring - in 2003!) I don't have a lot of faith that Palm will be able to come anywhere near perfecting a system as complex as the FOOLeo, especially on its first attempt. Think about it: Handspring gave Palm the Treo 600, which was only crippled due to Handspring's lack of budget. The device could easily have shipped with Bluetooth, WiFi, 128 MB of RAM, good-quality speaker/microphone and solid construction if only Handspring had had the money to spec those features. In the subsequent four years after the Treo 600's introduction Palm has spewed out the equally-flawed Treo 650, Treo 700p, Treo 680, and Treo 755p. After four years, Palm have either failed to fix the few flaws that were present in the original Treo 600 or have managed to introduce new problems. Pathetic. Do you really expect them to be able to deliver on the things that I have suggested that the FOOLeo concept should be capable of out-of-the-box? Don't be silly. If you read Ben Combee's blog you will see the excuses he's already starting to make for the limitations that we'll be seeing with the FOOLeo:

"Could we have made it thinner? Maybe.."
"Jakob makes a big deal about us not announcing full specs. They are coming -- he misses the point that we've not actually shipped the device yet. The D conference was a technology demo and a launch of the "idea" of Foleo, but we're still finalizing everything."
(Translation = We are desperately trying to finish coding some more applications for this thing.)
"Yes, there are some limitations to the device. Some can be fixed by refining and adding to the software that we'll ship with it, some will have to wait for future versions. Some are artifacts of our team having to pick and choose from features to spend time on in order to actually ship the device." (Translation = early adopters will once again be Palm's suckers beta testers. Yikes.)

While I'm all for giving Palm the benefit of the doubt, if they fail to deliver the goods, I don't see why they deserve anyone support. The Palm Faithful have supported them for YEARS despite the company's substandard products. Everyone here likes using the PalmOS, but I believe most of us are reaching the limit re: how many screwups from Palm we're willing to tolerate. Remember: you can always get a good used CLIE or Palm on eBay and tell Braniac Hawkins and his biotch Colligan to go F themselves.

As I've said before, it's getting to the point where we can now get microlaptops capable of running Real Windows®. On top of that, all of the major cellphone manufacturers are shipping smarter and smarter phones every month. If you have a fast connection and a cellphone or WiFi-connected PDA running a VNC client like Mocha VNC (http://www.mochasoft.dk/vncce.htm) then a device like the FOOLeo may be pointless. To be honest, there are so many ways that the competition can outdo the FOOLeo that unless Palm executes PERFECTLY right from Day 1, I don't see them having a chance. Consider these other options INSTEAD of paying $500 for a FOOLeo:

1) Windows Mobile with VNC (already here).
2) Windows Mobile with expanding syncing abilities (likely coming Real Soon Now).
3) iPhone with VNC (likely coming Real Soon Now).
4) iPhone with expanded syncing abilities (likely coming Real Soon Now).
5) Symbian with VNC.
6) Symbian with expanded sinking abilities (likely NOT coming Real Soon Now).
7) Real Windows® microlaptops with flash hard drives (already here, but expensive).
8) Mac microlaptops (likely coming Real Soon Now).
9) Any of the above with WiMax.

Most of us would choose to not carry an extra device, unless absolutely necessary. To get users to carry a large, completely nonstandard (non-Real Windows®) device is going to take a LOT of convincing on the part of Palm. Had the FOOLeo been released two years ago with EVERYTHING working perfectly (flawless syncing with properly-speced Treos, online applications and a smaller-sized FOOLeo) then the company would have had a lot better chance at carving out a solid niche as an alternate to expensive (and expensive-to-support) Windows laptops.

By the way, I assume you know about the battery life "issues" with the Treo 680?

Looking back on your posts here, you don't seem to be the kind of person that is ideally suited to being an early adopter. The FOOLeo is a waste of money for newbies like you and likely will not yet be advanced enough to appeal to power users. And it doesn't run Real Windows®. Looks to me like the market for the FOOLeo is going to be pretty damn small. Unless Palm absolutely NAILS the software end of things, I'm predicting that the FOOLeo is going to be a spectacular bomb.

If you go ahead with your plan to get a Treo 680 + FOOLeo, please don't come back here biotching about how horrible your setup is.

YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED.


TVoR

RE: The PC is dead
VampireLestat @ 6/18/2007 12:16:09 PM # Q
TVoR,

Well, you can't be any clearer than that. hehe I thank you for taking the time to list the pros and cons.

You are right about the apparent babbling nature of my posts last night. That is what happens when you are overworked, tired and still refuse to go to bed at 4 AM because you are intrigued with some stranger's post (sgiga) and are trying to understand a projection into the future about what mobile AND home computing will soon be like and if this future will answer my own needs. lol I slept on it, and I am still going ahead with the Treo 680 + Foleo purchases.

I watched Hawkins' Poleo presentation again last night on palm.com. I think he might be right about the future in which a Treo will become the core computer for most people's hectic lives and the Foleo expands that core mobile device when you are either sitting down at home or someplace at work. I will give you a concrete example of how a Foloe could help me in real life (just 1 of a dozens plans I now have).
I do weights and have built a special Excel sheet in which I punch in how many grams of any given food I eat. The sheet auto calculates the breakdown of the carb, protein, fat content etc. That faster and easier it is for me to get to that sheet, the better chances are I will still to my nutrition regiment. My laptop is cabled up to my desk and its not mobile. If I had a Foleo... the sheet is always available to me with a couple of seconds, in great simplicity AND.... get this... I think my sheet would be auto updated on my coming Treo, so when I leave my apartment, I know how many calories I can still eat in a day while Im out at work. The exciting parts for me here are

a) Foleo = bring it to any room. Don't have to run back to the cabled up laptop.
b) Easy and super fast access to Excel.
c) dual up down sync Foleo Treo so the data follows me out the door without me having to think about it.

And another example, when Im on the treadmill, I like to watch movies, I plan to play them on the Foleo because, again, my laptop is tied down to my desk and is not mobile at all. And if I want to crash down in bed or in my comfy sofa and read my websites, the Foleo makes that possible.

I am very excited by the practical uses here for myself.



RE: The PC is dead
VampireLestat @ 6/18/2007 12:31:23 PM # Q
By the way, I do currently actually use my Palm TX for my nutrition Excel sheet and it is adequate. But honestly, even on a 320x480 screen, sometimes I find myself wishing I could see more columns/rows and type in the data with a keyb. The Foleo is going to allow me to do that.

And as you all know, movies are great on the TX, but it doesn't stand up on its own, so watching movies on my desk or the near the treadmill is not easy. I know the Foleo is not going to be a movie powerhouse in the beginning - we might have to settle for 320x480 or a bit larger frame sizes, and it might not even play movies at all (who knows), but eventually I am sure it will. The idea here is stand it stands up, the screen swivels, instant on, very portable and a keyb to type in the data with easy and speed.

RE: The PC is dead
VampireLestat @ 6/18/2007 1:10:08 PM # Q
TVoR,

I didn't follow Treos much, so no, I was not aware of battery problems. I am sure I can deal with it.
In any event, the 680 seems right for me. It is decently priced and its GSM unlocked. I looked at the carrier contract plans but decided that a) they are forcing you to buy a plan that would be overkill for my needs and b) I really don't like the idea of a locked phone and being a multi-year contract slave.

Im getting the cheapest plan I can, and really its only because I need it for emergencies. A few times this year I realized that having a cellphone would have been useful during emergencies. So my Treo 680 will fill up that void.

As for my current TX mobile computing activities, I will have to adapt to the little 320x320 screen, but I am not too worried because I am buying a Foleo which will take my computing approach in a whole new direction.
It is going to be fun to also have a camera in a mobile computing device for a change.

So I appear to be on track to retire:
- My local phone plan. Saves 30$ there.
- My camera (will keep it for rare times I need super high quality).
- My TX.
- And gradually my laptop. It will remain in a room for special needs like movie editing, downloading and stuff like that.

On a sidenote, I am considering reviving my www.palmgratis.com website. Will have 2 sections:

- Palm OS freeware
- Foleo Linux freeware

TVoR,
So I think what will happen in real life for me with this Foleo is I will likely use it around my apartment mainly, and occasionally throw it into my briefcase and bring it to work if I feel that on a given day I need to catch up on some personal data work while on lunch/break, or say if I need to demo something to friends/colleagues. And who knows, if it light enough, I might just throw into my briefcase everyday. But the plan is that for core "out in the field" rapid fire consulting/entering data needs, the 680 will play that role.
- For me the Foleo appears to be best suited for improved mobility within the home itself, and instant access/updating of my data and computer related entertainment.

RE: The PC is dead
sgiga @ 6/18/2007 1:32:50 PM # Q
When looking at the actual numbers of smart phone sales and relate this to Palm OS and Foleo, then it is more a matter of why even bother - at all. Palm OS devices is less than 0.2% of the total, and falling. The market has grown with 5 million units in Q1-06 to Q1-07 (34%). Palm OS has lost, not only market share, but also in actual numbers sold.

If the Foleo shall have even a remote chance of success it has to concentrate on Symbian, Linux, Microsoft and RIM devices, and forget about Palm OS. Maybe this is exactly what Palm is doing, and maybe this is the main reason for going Linux Foleo and Microsoft Treo? Who knows? Maybe the first batch of Foleos will only work on MS Treos and iPhones?

The market for a Foleo kind of device is so huge that even if it only sell to 1% of the smart phone users, it will still sell more than 0.8m devices each year.


The statistics below is from http://www.symbian.com/about/fastfacts/fastfacts.html

Units Q1 07 (m)
Symbian: 15.75
Linux: 3.13
Access: 0.50
Microsoft: 1.51
RIM: 1.03
Others: 0.04
Total: 21.94

% market share Q1 07
Symbian: 71.7
Linux: 14.3
Access: 2.3
Microsoft: 6.9
RIM: 4.7
Others: 0.2
Total: 100.0

% Units Q1 06 (m)
Symbian: 11.50
Linux: 3.28
Access: 0.54
Microsoft: 0.41
RIM: 0.56
Others: 0.05
Total: 16.35

market share growth Q1-06/Q1-07 (%)
Symbian: 1.30
Linux: -5.70
Access: -1.00
Microsoft: 4.40
RIM: 1.30
Others: -0.10
Total: --

unit growth Q1-06/Q1-07 (%)
Symbian: 36.86
Linux: -4.59
Access: -7.81
Microsoft: 265.65
RIM: 82.82
Others: -31.40
Total: 34.21

RE: The PC is dead
cervezas @ 6/18/2007 4:42:19 PM # Q
What you really want is something that makes the capabilities of the phone more practical. You want something that at an instant can be hooked up to your phone for typing and displaying.... The Foleo is simply this logic followed to it’s ultimate and inevitable conclusion, and when this process finally is started it will amplify itself channeling even more money into phones and less into PCs.

Well put. That's the vision all right. I think Hawkins articulates his idea more clearly on Palm's web site than he managed to do during the D5 conference:

When we started this company in 1992 it was based on a very simple vision: that the future of personal computing would be mobile, that over time more and more of your personal computing needs would be satisfied by a device that fits in your pocket or purse.... We want to make the computer smaller and smaller, and we can do that. We can put more memory in it, we can put more data in it, we can put movies and pictures and so on. So we thought about the future, and we said, well, in the future people are going to have these very powerful portable computers in their pocket. But, they have these two limitations: there are times when you need a large display, and there are times when you need a large keyboard.... In our mind the future of mobile computing has and always will be small devices that are in your pocket, that contain all your data, access to the Internet and so on. And there is a need for a large screen experience..... We believe [Foleo] is really a beginning of a whole new wave of finally and truly making the mobile device that's in your pocket your primary PC.

One interesting thing that I think some people are missing is that Foleo is designed to work around the carriers' crippling of BT DUN (or the extortionist fees associated with using it to tether a laptop). The marquee feature is synchronization of the data that's on the phone, not out in the cloud somewhere. This sync API gives you a pretty good cost advantage over a cell-tethered laptop. For example, you could sync up all your RSS feeds and web sites on the handset (at a cheap data rate) then read them in offline-mode on the Foleo with no dial-up networking at all. Try that with your laptop over BT DUN and the carriers will shut you down.

Alternatively, if your life is full of free WiFi and you want to skip the pricey data plan from Cingular altogether, you can use your Foleo's WiFi connection to grab music and stuff to sync onto your phone and then have that in your pocket to use it like an iPod. Of course you can do that with your home PC, too... but then you'd have to be home at the time. (Admittedly, the first scenario is the more useful one.)

I agree with TVoR that VNC (or better still a remote control protocol that can tunnel through firewalls without a VPN) is a great tool for using your PC software without carrying a PC. But it also undermines his point that people should just buy a micro-laptop running desktop Windows. Why carry a slow-booting, hot-running Windows machine for $1000-$2,500 when you could run the occasional desktop app on the Foleo when you need it?

The Asus and VIA micro-laptops *look* like competition for Foleo (and there certainly *will* be competition) but how many companies have Palm's skill at making a mobile system really simple and responsive? I think Apple is the closest to having the right DNA, but Jobs seems petrified to do anything that might have a whiff of Newton about it.

It's going to be interesting, and Palm will have to execute well, but at this point I don't see Foleo being either ignored by consumers or blown out of the water by competition. I think it will be a good horse race.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com/blog

Don't be a FOOL: early FOOLeo adopters likely in for a rocky ride
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 6/18/2007 5:10:57 PM # Q
I will give you a concrete example of how a Foloe could help me in real life (just 1 of a dozens plans I now have).
I do weights and have built a special Excel sheet in which I punch in how many grams of any given food I eat. The sheet auto calculates the breakdown of the carb, protein, fat content etc. That faster and easier it is for me to get to that sheet, the better chances are I will still to my nutrition regiment. My laptop is cabled up to my desk and its not mobile. If I had a Foleo... the sheet is always available to me with a couple of seconds, in great simplicity AND.... get this... I think my sheet would be auto updated on my coming Treo, so when I leave my apartment, I know how many calories I can still eat in a day while Im out at work. The exciting parts for me here are

a) Foleo = bring it to any room. Don't have to run back to the cabled up laptop.
b) Easy and super fast access to Excel.
c) dual up down sync Foleo Treo so the data follows me out the door without me having to think about it.

First of all, who said the FOOLeo has a spreadsheet application?

Secondly, more recent PalmOS devices come with a copy of Documents To Go, so you probably aready have a mobile spreadsheet application. If you don't, for $20 you can buy a copy of MiniCalc, put it on whatever PalmOS device you use and then sync the info back to your laptop when you get home. Remind me again why you NEED a FOOLeo?

TVoR


Ditch the Foleo and buy a Wireless Keyboard!
CADJedi @ 6/18/2007 5:11:33 PM # Q

I DO agree with the "Foleo Concept" (almost), thats why I have already been using it for the last several years!

I use a Palm TX as my PDA... it has a nice viewable screen and is pocketable... I add my wireless keybeard and I can do a lot of my computing at the local coffee shop. With the TX's built in wifi I can check me email, surf the net a little, edit spreadsheets and Word documents. Basically I left my laptop behind ages ago.

What I would like is for my TX to be able to power a small bluetooth earpiece. Then my PDA will hold all my data... I could make or receive calls via the coupled earpiece... and I could enter more serious data via the couple keyboard. A near perfect trio to accomplish most of my daily needs.

This seems like a lot more useful, pocketable, and more affordable team of devices then the "Foleo Concept" that Palm is currently proposing.

But that just my opinion!

Respectfully,
Eric


RE: The PC is dead
cervezas @ 6/18/2007 6:25:44 PM # Q
First of all, who said the FOOLeo has a spreadsheet application?

Well, Palm does, for one: http://www.palm.com/us/products/mobilecompanion/foleo/attachments.html

During D5 Hawkins said DataViz had done the Documents to Go suite for the Foleo. JMHO, but I don't know a lot of people (outside of Palm freaks) that do very much with spreadsheets on their Palm--at least not with *editing* them. If they do, they probably wish they had a real Palm application that did what the spreadsheet does with a usable Palm GUI. Spreadsheets were designed for the big screen and that's the only place they will see any mainstream usage.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com/blog

Wake up Beersy! It's all about the SOFTWARE. Got it?
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 6/18/2007 7:43:15 PM # Q
>>>What you really want is something that makes the capabilities of the phone more practical. You want something that at an instant can be hooked up to your phone for typing and displaying.... The Foleo is simply this logic followed to it’s ultimate and inevitable conclusion, and when this process finally is started it will amplify itself channeling even more money into phones and less into PCs.

Well put. That's the vision all right. I think Hawkins articulates his idea more clearly on Palm's web site than he managed to do during the D5 conference:


When we started this company in 1992 it was based on a very simple vision: that the future of personal computing would be mobile, that over time more and more of your personal computing needs would be satisfied by a device that fits in your pocket or purse.... We want to make the computer smaller and smaller, and we can do that. We can put more memory in it, we can put more data in it, we can put movies and pictures and so on. So we thought about the future, and we said, well, in the future people are going to have these very powerful portable computers in their pocket. But, they have these two limitations: there are times when you need a large display, and there are times when you need a large keyboard.... In our mind the future of mobile computing has and always will be small devices that are in your pocket, that contain all your data, access to the Internet and so on. And there is a need for a large screen experience..... We believe [Foleo] is really a beginning of a whole new wave of finally and truly making the mobile device that's in your pocket your primary PC.

Nonsense. If you don't want the weight, you accept the compromises that using Treos present. If you're needing a large display and a large keyboard frequently then you'd need to carry the FOOLeo around frequently. If you're carrying around a 2 1/2 POUND FOOLeo all the time then why not carry around a 2 1/2 pound Real Windows laptop instead? Why compromise the software if you're willing to lug the weight? This whole "FOOLeo as bigger Treo keyboard/screen" positioning is nonsense. Hawkins is just using this argument to try to use Palm's beachhead/foot in the door (Treos) as a means of selling what would otherwise be unsellable (a non-Windows laptop with limited (no?) software). Please cut the B.S., Beersy. Unless the FOOLeo ships with software that lets users do pretty much EVERY COMMON FUNCTION that a Real Windows laptop does, then it's of limited use to MOST (not all) people.

Ask yourself these 2 questions:

a)What "problem"/need does the FOOLeo "solve"/address?
b) What other devices are available that also can address those issues and does this competition do the job "better" than the FOOLeo?

It's pretty obvious that if you're carrying around a 2 1/2 pound FOOLeo just to have a bigger screen/keyboard for your Treo, there are better options available (for MOST people).

There are 2 ways Palm could develop this concept. Which way they go depends on whether they see themselves as a SOFTWARE company vs. a CELLPHONE company vs. a HARDWARE company, and who they would prefer to compete with in the future:

Option 1 is to turn the FOOLeo into a standalone, fully-fledged, PalmLinux, instant-on microlaptop with a complete suite of (ideally MS Office-compatible) apps that just happen to also sync with PalmLinux +/- PalmOS 5 Treos. Push the small size, battery life, ruggedness, low cost to support, simplicity, "Zenness", and whatever other B.S. they can come up with that they think people might believe. In this case it doesn't really matter what phone is used, since the main function of the phone would be to act as a modem. Sit back and watch if flop. If if doesn't say "Windows" on it, business users (probably the ideal market for such a device) will avoid it like the plague. Furthermore, Palm would be competing with EVERY laptop maker in the world selling a Real Windows, Mac or Linux microlaptop.

Option 2 is to turn the Treo into a fully-fledged mini-computer running PalmLinux apps that can sync wirelessly to ONLINE databases of the SAME applications. Syncing can be realtime or on demand. If you want to get fancy, ensure the apps can also be run OFFLINE on any platform (Windows, Mac, Linux, PalmLinux) and that syncing can be triggered the next time users go online. Options to save predetermined numbers of timed backups of files online can be set in an app's (or better yet, file's) preferences. Suddenly, desktop/laptop OS doesn't matter. Paid Internet connection doesn't matter (if Wi-Fi is available). Hardware doesn't matter (ANY computer with a keyboard, screen and Internet connection can become the Treo's "bigger keyboard + screen"). All that matters is the smartphone.

Smartphone = New PC

S = N PC˛

Palm gets to sell more Treos. Carriers love the continual data tranfers (most users would choose unlimited data packages)

Palm gets to sell FOOLeos to people that want cheap small computers to use on the go.

Palm gets to sell online storage for data (e.g. store personal music collections online + stream them on demand as a personal radio station).

Palm (optionally) gets to sell offline versions of its apps so users can work on files without an Internet connection.

Which option would a SMART company choose?

One interesting thing that I think some people are missing is that Foleo is designed to work around the carriers' crippling of BT DUN (or the extortionist fees associated with using it to tether a laptop). The marquee feature is synchronization of the data that's on the phone, not out in the cloud somewhere. This sync API gives you a pretty good cost advantage over a cell-tethered laptop. For example, you could sync up all your RSS feeds and web sites on the handset (at a cheap data rate) then read them in offline-mode on the Foleo with no dial-up networking at all. Try that with your laptop over BT DUN and the carriers will shut you down.

Syncing data to a FOOLeo is just Palm's way of trying to prod people into getting their feet wet. ONLINE syncing is where the real $$$ is - for both Palm and the carriers.

Alternatively, if your life is full of free WiFi and you want to skip the pricey data plan from Cingular altogether, you can use your Foleo's WiFi connection to grab music and stuff to sync onto your phone and then have that in your pocket to use it like an iPod. Of course you can do that with your home PC, too... but then you'd have to be home at the time. (Admittedly, the first scenario is the more useful one.)

That makes no sense, Beersy. People already have 2, 4, 8 GB SD cards for their Treos and store music LOCALLY. What significant advantage is there to grabbing an MP3 from an 8 GB SD card stored in a FOOLeo when you can just use the same card in the Treo instead? The REAL advantage would be syncing to a personal online folder of MP3 (e.g. 100GB) and either streaming the files or downloading them wirelessly to the Treo.

I agree with TVoR that VNC (or better still a remote control protocol that can tunnel through firewalls without a VPN) is a great tool for using your PC software without carrying a PC. But it also undermines his point that people should just buy a micro-laptop running desktop Windows. Why carry a slow-booting, hot-running Windows machine for $1000-$2,500 when you could run the occasional desktop app on the Foleo when you need it?

Two reasons:
- Windows SOFTWARE (Photoshop, games, voice recognition, Skype, specialialty/education apps, running DVDs... all blows the FOOLeo out of the water, Beersy. Get serious.)
- Performance (on a Real Windows computer just take your laptop out of suspension and you're back working with your full-featured app within seconds vs. slowly tunnelling in to your desktop with a FOOLeo + VNC (does Palm even have a PalmLinux VNC app coded? Probably not!) and then dealing with latency issues the whole time you're using the desktop app... No thanks.)

The Asus and VIA micro-laptops *look* like competition for Foleo (and there certainly *will* be competition) but how many companies have Palm's skill at making a mobile system really simple and responsive? I think Apple is the closest to having the right DNA, but Jobs seems petrified to do anything that might have a whiff of Newton about it.

Please don't EVER use the words "skill" and "Palm" in the same sentence again. Palm GOT LUCKY by choosing a clever OS. Everything else good that we've seen in the platform has come from clever developers outsmarting the platform's (severe) limitations and from other (now-departed) licensees like Sony, HandEra, TapWave and Handspring making good hardware + hacking the OS. Palm couldn't even code their own EMAIL app! Every time Palm has touched the OS recently it's broken something like a drunken toddler and promptly run off (cowardly) leaving the mess behind for developers to clean up. As a so-called developer, I'm surprised you would B.S. like that, Beersy. And in case you didn't realize, moderm hardware is able to BRUTE FORCE most problems that (pre-Vista) Windows + Windows apps present.

Real Windows Microlaptops make the FOOLeo look like an absolute joke. Don't embarass yourself by comparing the two in public again, Beersy.

It's going to be interesting, and Palm will have to execute well, but at this point I don't see Foleo being either ignored by consumers or blown out of the water by competition. I think it will be a good horse race.

You STILL don't get it, Beersy. This isn't about the FOOLeo. It's about the SOFTWARE.





Copyright, 2007
TVoR, Inc


RE: The PC is dead
VampireLestat @ 6/18/2007 8:21:42 PM # Q
TVoR,

a)What "problem"/need does the FOOLeo "solve"/address?
- NEW! Instant on.
- NEW! Easier, new way of synching keyb+screen device with pocket device.
- NEW! Eliminate OS overhead.
- BETTER! Speed/ease in flipping through desired apps.
- BETTER! Wifi bridge into the Treo.
- BETTER! Easy 'Grab and go' approach while moving around inside buildings/homes.
- BETTER! Lighter/smaller. Pushing the device under a threshold after which it becomes much more appealing and less burdensome to carry a laptop around out in the field.
- NEW! no hard drive (I think...); uses CF instead.
- NEW! New concept of making a smartphone the core CPU for day to day personal data and computing needs.
- BETTER! Promote Linux development and build a serious alternative to Windows and MacOS.

b) What other devices are available that also can address those issues and does this competition do the job "better" than the FOOLeo?
- I don't know. Do you?

Anyways at the end of the day, even if there is competition, which is healthy, I want a Palm.

Mobile computing for me is take control of massive amounts of ideas, info and data in out every day lives. And it is about multimedia entertainment. I am willing to bet the Foleo is on the right track to accelerate, simplify, streamline, automate and ultimately convert a lot of my currently wasted time fighting with XP and hardware constraints into increased productivity, less stress and more time to have fun.

RE: The PC is dead
cervezas @ 6/18/2007 8:58:09 PM # Q
So we had to scroll through three screens to find out that you're not a customer for the Foleo? Honestly, you're almost as silly as Gekko telling people what they do and don't need.

At least at one point you ask a couple of good questions:
What problem does the Foleo solve?
What devices solve it better?

Since you've read and commented on my blog, you already have a pretty good idea where I stand on this. Foleo addresses a need for a simpler, more responsive, lower cost way to experience mobile applications with full-size PC screen and keyboard. Simpler than a desktop PC operating system. More responsive in that you never have to start or stop it, just open it up and it's instantly where you left off. And lower cost both in terms of the initial hardware investment and in ongoing data costs (it doesn't whack you with the carrier's huge penalty for tethering a laptop to a Bluetooth dial-up networking connection).

What devices solve those problems better? You tell me. At the moment I'm not seeing anything obvious. If UMPCs and OQOs solved these problems I think they'd be selling better than they are. If PDAs with slide-out keyboards did the trick we'd see more action on those, too. Mostly these fail because they're either too expensive, they aren't sufficiently ergonomic, or both. Laptops as small and light as the Foleo cost 3 times as much. The Asus and VIA micro-laptops look promising for price and form factor, but they're cheap and ugly, they look like they have cramped "condensed" keyboards and they aren't coming from companies known for good system development. We'll see what they're like when they come out.

I agree that the Foleo's long term success will depend on building a software ecosystem that fills lots of individual needs. I disagree that version 1.0 should ship loaded with all kinds of applications like a PC you get from Dell. It should be simple and focused, like the original Pilot. Give users the sense that it is a device they can customize for their own needs and interests, like the Pilot was. Email, PIM, MS Office documents, maybe a simple text editor. Make it "just work" and let the 3rd party developers take care of the rest.


David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: The PC is dead
Gekko @ 6/19/2007 12:13:24 AM # Q

it solves a problem that doesn't exist.

this pig is DOA.

please stop spinning.

good night.



Rumors of the PC's death were greatly exaggerated...
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 6/19/2007 1:20:01 AM # Q
First of all, who said the FOOLeo has a spreadsheet application?

Well, Palm does, for one: http://www.palm.com/us/products/mobilecompanion/foleo/attachments.html

Does it allow users to edit the files + create new spreadsheets, or is it view-only?

PCs will kick sand in the face of the FOOLeo
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 6/19/2007 1:42:44 AM # Q
TVoR,

a)What "problem"/need does the FOOLeo "solve"/address?
- NEW! Instant on.

Try a laptop with the "Suspend" feature.

- NEW! Easier, new way of synching keyb+screen device with pocket device.

Try Bluetooth Hotsync to a Real Windows laptop or UMPC.

- NEW! Eliminate OS overhead.

What do you mean?

- BETTER! Speed/ease in flipping through desired apps.

Can it multitask + have multiple apps + multiple websites open at the same time? A $300 Real Windows PC can.

- BETTER! Wifi bridge into the Treo.

What do you mean?

- BETTER! Easy 'Grab and go' approach while moving around inside buildings/homes.

Again, try Bluetooth Hotsync to a Real Windows laptop or UMPC.

- BETTER! Lighter/smaller. Pushing the device under a threshold after which it becomes much more appealing and less burdensome to carry a laptop around out in the field.

Lighter/smaller Real Windows laptops and UMPC have been around for a while and prices are dropping QUICKLY.

- NEW! no hard drive (I think...); uses CF instead.

Actually, I believe it uses Flash memory. In any event, several Real Windows devices are already shipping with (hideously expensive) Flash instead of a real hard drive.

- NEW! New concept of making a smartphone the core CPU for day to day personal data and computing needs.

Yes, but it remains to be seen if this will work. Or if it will work better than a Real Windows microlaptop.

- BETTER! Promote Linux development and build a serious alternative to Windows and MacOS.

Get serious.

>>>b) What other devices are available that also can address those issues and does this competition do the job "better" than the FOOLeo?
- I don't know. Do you?

Pick any of a dozen different Real Windows UMPC and microlaptops.

TVoR

RE: The PC DESTROYS the FOOLeo
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 6/19/2007 10:45:02 AM # Q
So we had to scroll through three screens to find out that you're not a customer for the Foleo? Honestly, you're almost as silly as Gekko telling people what they do and don't need.

Brilliant response, as always, David. You should have been a lawyer.
I'm not telling anyone what they need. I'm ASKING what needs the FOOLeo will fulfill that other devices won't fulfill more adroitly. So far I'm not finding a lot of reasons why MOST PEOPLE would choose a FOOLeo over a Treo or a traditional PDA + external keyboard combo, or a Real Windows (or Mac) laptop.

At least at one point you ask a couple of good questions:
What problem does the Foleo solve?
What devices solve it better?

Since you've read and commented on my blog, you already have a pretty good idea where I stand on this. Foleo addresses a need for a simpler, more responsive, lower cost way to experience mobile applications with full-size PC screen and keyboard. Simpler than a desktop PC operating system. More responsive in that you never have to start or stop it, just open it up and it's instantly where you left off. And lower cost both in terms of the initial hardware investment and in ongoing data costs (it doesn't whack you with the carrier's huge penalty for tethering a laptop to a Bluetooth dial-up networking connection).

I went to your pathetic blog and saw comments from a TVoR "fan" named The Diva of Reason. Let me guess: you posted this yourself in an effort to create a little controversy + get a little traffic to your website. How clever.
Each of the so-called advantages of the FOOLeo you list are either trivial or actually nonexistent:
- Anyone can buy a Real Windows laptop for less than a FOOLeo's true cost [$500 - $600 + price of whatever applications need to be purchased (like PIM apps!) to make the FOOLeo a (barely) functional device.]
- Have you tested the FOOLeo to back up you claim that it's "more responsive" than a Real Windows device?
- Windows devices in their basic form can also be very simple. All users have to do is not add much software (like the FOOLeo).
- Laptops have a "Suspend" ability that allows them to wake up within seconds.
- W T F are you going on about lower cost of data? With Wi-Fi + Bluetooth on a laptop the costs are the same as the FOOLeo. Also, anyone with a Sprint unlimited data SERO plan (as low as $30/month for 500 minutes of voice + unlimited EVDO) can tether as much as they want within reason. Since I don't use other carriers, I can't say they are the same about tethering, but your point is moot.

What devices solve those problems better? You tell me. At the moment I'm not seeing anything obvious. If UMPCs and OQOs solved these problems I think they'd be selling better than they are.

Wrong. UMPCs are a new category of device and up until now have been extremely expensive. As prices drop, more people will be willing to try them out. The new Sony Vaio U series is stunning. One version of it even comes with Flash instead of a hard drive. A well-designed UMPC would be a he11 of a lot more useful to MOST people than a FOOLeo.

If PDAs with slide-out keyboards did the trick we'd see more action on those, too.

Specious argument, Beersy. The lack of (all types of) PDA relates to a lot more factors other than what consumers want. Manufacturers killed PDAs - not consumers.

Mostly these fail because they're either too expensive, they aren't sufficiently ergonomic, or both.

Likely mainly because of cost.

Laptops as small and light as the Foleo cost 3 times as much.

Prices are falling quickly. UMPC and microlaptops costing $1000 or less are either here or coming Real Soon Now. And what is the TRUE COST of the FOOLeo? $500? $600? $600 + $100 in software to make it functional? W T F is Palm thinking?

The Asus and VIA micro-laptops look promising for price and form factor, but they're cheap and ugly,

Kind of like most of the stuff Palm makes these days...

they look like they have cramped "condensed" keyboards

If they're smaller/lighter than the FOOLeo, then I'll gladly take that trade.

and they aren't coming from companies known for good system development. We'll see what they're like when they come out.

And Palm IS known for good system development, right Beersy? Like the T3 toasting patch, and the Tungsten T5 headaches, and the NVRAM headaches, and the Treo 650 nightmares, and the Treo 700p issues, and the (recalled) Treo 700p bugfix, and the Treo 680 "issues", and the fatally laggy LifeDrive...

I agree that the Foleo's long term success will depend on building a software ecosystem that fills lots of individual needs. I disagree that version 1.0 should ship loaded with all kinds of applications like a PC you get from Dell. It should be simple and focused, like the original Pilot. Give users the sense that it is a device they can customize for their own needs and interests, like the Pilot was. Email, PIM, MS Office documents, maybe a simple text editor. Make it "just work" and let the 3rd party developers take care of the rest.

No, they need to do what Apple is doing with the iPhone: ship the device LOADED with most of the apps users could ever want. The Palm of the past 10 years initially shipped with no software because Palm was LAZY. The excuse they used for a LONG time was that they didn't wasn to compete with their precious developers. Yeah. Riiiiiiiiight. Now we know what Palm REALLY feels about developers! Most people aren't going to want to go hunting for apps for their $500 device. Palm evenntually figured this out with their PalmOS devices and later bundled MultiMail/VersaMail, Documents To Go, PocketTunes, etc. To try and pull the same B.S. again with the FOOLeo because Palm is unable to competently code a suite of apps for a $500 - $600 device is beyond ridiculous.

Time for you to switch into full Michael Mace-style Apologist Mode, Beersy. Your arguments are exceptionally weak. Then again, so is the FOOLeo.

TVoR

RE: The PC is dead
hkklife @ 6/19/2007 11:49:40 AM # Q
I for one am enjoying using a "real" PC now more so than ever before. With the arrival of dual/quad core CPUs, huge HDs and gobs of affordable RAM, heavy-duty stuff like video encoding is nearly as painless and can be done spontaneously like launching a word processor.

I actually LIKE Vista as long as I'm not doing anything mission-critical that does not require a particular piece of Vista-unfriendly legacy hardware or software. And I'm even considering buying a Mac just to play with after seeing Apple play catch-up to the Wintel platform. My point is that Vista already has Readyboost/SuperFetch capabilities. When we start seeing the new hybrid HDDs and affordable SSDs, the Wintel platform and subnotebook portables from the likes of Acer, Asus, Sony etc. will likely move in on the Treo's market through sheer brute force alone.

I see the Foleo's greatest chance with niche fields & fields (education, writers, always-on-the-road salesmen) much like what the classic Tandy 100 enjoyed 20+ years ago. IMO, the Foleo isn't a BAD product but a horribly niche, overly-specialized, and underpowered one. A Foleo would be a splendid product from a company such as Nokia or Sony-Ericsson with a huge global user base and deep pockets.

But by targeting it as as an extension of the Treo AND the PC to the usual PDA/smartphone/PMP set, I still think it's going to end up as the worst descision *EVER* made by Palm management and one could that theoretically sink the company.

Right now the last thing Palm needs is another ill-advised romp down a 3rd product category. Total abandonment of the PDA line by declaring it "mature" (a kind way to say the've orphaned it), Palm's non-WinMob future plans are hazy (at least from what they have publicly hinted at and revealed), the Palm OS Treo line is in SHAMBLES (no update for unlocked 680s, the RUIN that is the 700p ROM update etc), no Vista-compliant Palm Desktop, no 750 WM6 upgrade yet, no larger screeed Treos, nothing with any serious multimedia capabilities etc etc.



Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5-->TX-->Treo 700P

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Certainly a believable explanation - but I'm a PALM-pessimist

SeldomVisitor @ 7/21/2007 12:24:39 PM # Q
RE: Certainly a believable explanation - but I'm a PALM-pessimist
hkklife @ 7/21/2007 6:05:38 PM # Q
I don't believe that either. That's not a "release strategy" IMO--it's "wishful thinking".

Look, Palm cannot even deliver a PUBLIC BETA of the barebones, decrepit Palm Desktop that runs reliably under Vista. Do YOU really trust them to keep plugging away at the Foleo via firmware, OS, and application updates?

The Palm platform has reached the state where you have to be a wily veteran and poke around numerous discusssion boards in search of fixes, workarounds, and hacks to make sense of what programs runs on which devices, what the latest versions of those apps are, and to discover the inherent limitations, bugs and quirks of each particular Palm OS device.

I wouldn't want to wish a Fooleo (at least a first-gen Fooleo) upon anyone...and don't forget, the Foleo's lifeline to the outside world (wi-fi aside) is dependent on the wobbly Garnet BT stack? That same BT stack that has trouble maintaining headset pairings? That same BT stack that still cannot reliably deliver app-agnostic A2DP audio?

And to depend on Palm for anything in the way of writing drivers/init strings for new cellular handsets/smartphones (especially the competition's) is certain to end in frustration. Let me remind you of Palm's first (and utter failed) attempt to create a line of "Mobile Phone Companions": their neglected, halfhearted PhoneLink Updater software that was to let Tungsten-era Palm devices connect to the web via BT-enabled cellphones. It last saw an update in June '05 (when the LifeDrive shipped and prior to the TX's launch). Still think Palm's gonna fall over themselves to roll out a Foleo update to cover the slew of new BT handsets hitting the market? HAH!
http://www.palm.com/us/support/downloads/phonelink.html


Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5-->TX-->Treo 700P

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