Comments on: Foleo Product Announcement Strategy Analysis

Ah - Mr. Lyons confirmed as the Obsessed Fan so obsessed he took on my Yahoo ID here.

But we knew that already.

Giggle.

but those evil white heterosexual men are all fair game.

you've got to love liberal hypocrisy and san francisco values!!!

And actually we are talking about the same thing really, more or less. I am all in favor of cellular radios in pdas. My problem with the Treo is screen real-estate and dependence on carriers.

I think Palm is in for one helluva rough debacle once the iPhone is released. The iPhone merges the Treo and PDA worlds together intelligently. It is a powerful full screen multitasking mobile computing device which so happens to offer perfect telephony as well.

Remember the days when we were all screaming for a 320x480 PDA with a virtual graffiti area? Or the days when we wanted the T3 to become a solid 320x480 device? Well my quarrel with the Treo is the same. The Treo is a pda with cellular. Just not designed the way I like it.

The iPhone TV ads are extremely appealing to me. I like many millions of others I am sure are seriously considering the iPhone as the first serious mobile computing device with telephony.

let's not forget that a big reason for the ipod's success has been due to:

1. ipod's intuitive, best of breed GUI for media playing.
2. itunes and its revolutionizing of the distribution of music.
3. Apple's smart marketing.

the leadership at palm was not smart enough to create any of the above.

http://www.allaboutsymbian.com/features/item/A_Plea_to_Developers__10_UIQ_3_Applications_Wishlist.php

#1 makes UIQ a no-go for me.

Palm Vx (a classic) -> Palm 505 (*yawn*) -> Dell Axim (slooow...) -> Palm TE (great) -> Qtek 9090 (great idea, lousy platform) -> Nokia 6630 (a toy) -> iMate SP3i (not bad) -> Nokia 9300 (can't sync notes!!) -> Treo 650 (awesome) -> hw6915 (almost perfect)

Hehe. Servers would probably be shut down in overload.

Pat Horne

Pat Horne

Pat, you proposed a model around THREE years ago (the Treo 800g) that would in essence have been Palm's version of the iPhone. Palm could easily have released such a model 2 1/2 years before the iPhone's expected released date. Had Palm released the Treo 800g, the company would still be the smartphone design leader today, rather than a rapidly-fading has-been.

http://www.palminfocenter.com/comments/7073/#96697

Can you upload the Treo 800g photos again?

TVoR

* staring in quiet awe, in fear for Palm *

http://www.apple.com/iphone/technology/sensors.html
Sensors =
a) IR proximity detector which shuts down the screen when its close to your ear.
b) Ambient light detector (adjusts screen auto)
b) accelerometer, auto landscape/portrait when rotating iphone.

wow

Is Palm now allowed to steal all those ideas? or are there patents?

Of course, for the people that the iPhone will appeal to, this isn't too much of a negative, since the device will be shipping with most of the applications that they would ever want. (Or at least most of the applications that His Steveness TELLS THEM that they would ever want...)

Now that is useful. And cool.

It's also in my (year old) Canon SD700 digital camera. And I ended up turning off the feature because it got annoying - sometimes I want to decide I'm going to view things. The auto switching became intrusive.

TVoR

Treo 480v ...
http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa125/livefaith/treo480v.jpg

Treo 800g ...
http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa125/livefaith/treo800g.jpg

Ahhh, both forerunners of the iPhone. So close, yet so far away. :-

Pat Horne

If it's a shit product, marketing won't help.

Cobalt was in it's heyday, about 3-4 months before the much glamorized Jan 1 ship date to licensees? It was right about the time of the spinoff, Handspring absorption, and Sony was still in the game etc etc. Everybody pretty much expected greatness and debate raged about head to head with M$ etc. Nagel was talking about all the devices that Cobalt would turn to glory. He said in so many words that "Palm was shopping for a licensee to build a laptop around it." This was the first thing I thot of when I saw HNGT (Hawkins next great thang) leaked. I remember helping Palm with this concept device which they purchased, downgraded, and called it Foleo. :-D

http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa125/livefaith/laptop.jpg

@ marketing ...
The week before the insane PSP retail rollout, I was in a EB Games store (Electronics Boutique) that was ready for the rush. As my kids were digging through the games, I struck conversation with the manager/owner, who handed me a PSP demo unit that I tinkered with a bit. I asked him what he thought about the Tapwave Zodiac (2 yr old BTW) and how it would compare to the PSP. He asked my what a Zodiac was. Nuff said about marketing I guess.

Pat Horne

Hawkins' revisionist view on history aside ("We made a prototype outta foam board five years ago!), ....

Awesome! So you were there, seeing and hearing all of this. That's cool!

So what else did Hawkins do? What are the other design ideas that he's "not" been working on? Did you get to work with him often? How often did you get to meet with him and/or Colligan? Were they interested in any of your product ideas? What were those? Any other anecdotal stories you can share with us about your experiences? It's great to hear from an insider about all of this stuff.

It'd be really cool if you could write up some of your experiences for an article here on PIC.


Thinking about Vista? Think again: http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/pubs/vista_cost.txt
Want an alternative? Try this: http://www.ubuntu.com/ or http://www.mepis.org/

But by all means, show me that "recorded history" of which you speak. I'll be happy to have a look. I will be happy to read it, and I will readily admit it if I am wrong. Or is this just another example of how you want your "conclusions" to be "facts"? How about the links?


Thinking about Vista? Think again: http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/pubs/vista_cost.txt
Want an alternative? Try this: http://www.ubuntu.com/ or http://www.mepis.org/

http://messages.finance.yahoo.com/mb/PALM:

Poor bastard (3 Ratings) 13-Jun-07 11:23 pm For those of you who been around less than a year, a couple of facts you should know about hengeem.

1) When he first came on this board almost 5 years ago, he was exposed by one of his coworkers as the guy that got fired from Palm (at that time, Handspring) because he objected to the company's new direction in smartphones, and thought the company should stick with pda's. He kept telling everyone "Treo will not save us" and they "will never sell more than a 1000 of them" (later revised to 10,000, then 100,000; as far as I know he gave up after that). Anyway, they put his rear end out to pasture.

2) First thing he does is goes to the Treo forum board, signs up as "Seldom_Visitor" and starts papering the boards with his ranting and raving. Eventually, he is kicked off by the board moderator.

3) So he moves to the Yahoo msg board, and is here ever since. He begins by boasting that he has mortgaged his house to short Palm at a split-adjusted 5. Not clear whether he ever covered this. Perhaps not, which is why he is still around.

4) Over the last 5 years, apparently he has become so palm and treo-obsessed that his wife left him, taking the kid.

5) On days the stock shoots up, he is nowhere to be found.

6) He spends 24 hours a day scouring the entire Web looking for any negative piece of info on Palm. When he can't find any, he resorts to making it up.

7) Now a bachelor, he has taken to visiting the local leather bar, where he likes to giggle.

Any more questions about Hengeem?

Wow, hengeem. Is that true? Say it ain't so, Little Buddy.

Giggle.

TVoR

Good Lord Almighty!

Since when is a post by someone who names his Yahoo ID after my TreoCentral/PalmInfoCenter ID NOT believable in its entirety!

Sheesh...some people.

Giggle.

Tell me about how that made you feel, hengeem. Let it all come out. I'm here for you.

Did what they did to you make you want to "lash out"? It's OK to feel anger. It's OK to be ashamed. I don't judge you.

Apple is about to trigger a whole new universe of Mobile OS X programs.

Please explain.


Thinking about Vista? Think again: http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/pubs/vista_cost.txt
Want an alternative? Try this: http://www.ubuntu.com/ or http://www.mepis.org/

bwaaaaaaaaaaaahahahahahahahahahahahaha
Then it's a piece of crap.

I thought it was completely open and an SDK would be released.
The latter and also lack of stylus will most definitely temper its sales.

You can't have a serious mobile computing device without 3rd party devs and a stylus.

(Now what was that you were saying? I can't see through the tears of laughter. No matter; it's likely something akin to "since 1=3 in my world, a truck is smaller than the color red".)


Thinking about Vista? Think again: http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/pubs/vista_cost.txt
Want an alternative? Try this: http://www.ubuntu.com/ or http://www.mepis.org/

- Little cheap phones often don't sync to your desktop and have no security, if you lose your phone you lose everything.
- Palms have tens of thousands of exciting programs. Anyone can program for it.
- Palms have a stylus.
- Palms have a touchscreen.
- Palm's Desktop software manages multiple profiles very simply, it is easy to use and Hotsync is friendly and just works.
- Palms sync over Wifi with great easy (unless WM which completely bans it).

And let's face it, although many of us complain, we are still here talking about Palm. Why? Because deep down we like Palm and we want them to succeed. You know what they say, we often hurt those we love the most.

* *violin playing** because I am being a bit too cheesy* hehehe

I have 2 laptops at home, 2 at work and a Palm TX in my pocket. WHY, (now please stop and think seriously for a moment here please), why would I integrate a Foleo into my life? (which would force me to buy a Treo of course). What the Foleo can do, my TX can do better with only slight modifications (larger screen frontal use and Wordlogic.com); which PALM FANS HERE HAVE BEEN SCREAMING FOR YEARS.

This Foleo is the result of the Treo obsession and blindness.

I hope to God these new Apple guys can talk some sense into the remaining Palm leaders.

I hereby predict, that if Palm proceeds seriously with the Foleo.
Hawkins, like he is already hinting, will come out with a tiny keyboardless, stripped down Treo; his logic will be "Well you can have this ultra compact cool low cost Treo and not worry about its shortcomings because you can buy a Foleo companion! Yay!".

THEN... hehehe this is where it gets funny. Palm will start to realize they came full circle and they are back to the days when they were trying to promote use of the Palm TX in conjunction with smallest coolest tiny featureless cellphone.
Problem here is that instead of a cool pocketable TX, they will be presenting their consumers with a comparatively huge Foleo that no one will want because its not pockeatable. And since the Treo model will be stripped down, many people will end up buying cell phones from other companies.

Full circle. Just watch.

Look, this is all very simple. Consumers want 3 major things: cellular, mp3s and then the rest encompassing general mobile computing (movies, docs, email, ebooks, games).
Palm has to calm down, splash some water in their face and do this:

a) Copy all the ideas and technology they legally can from the iPhone and HTC devices.
b) Take the dumb Treo, slap on a VGA (so PPC devs can port to PalmOS Linux) OLED screen with graphics chip, advanced keyboard software (pick up the phone and go talk to Wordlogic.com and make a deal for a Palm OS port).
c) Give it a new name.
d) Put the buttons on the side. And maybe 3 big plain ones on the front in order to protect the gaming market.
e) Copy the Iphone browser, the tap and zoom thingy. Quick slide touch screen.
f) Put the speakers on the front.
g) replaceable battery and camera like on the Treo now.
h) better soundchip than in the Tx.
i) little foot in the back for the device to stand up for speakephone and video showcasing/
j) SD
k) Wifi, Evdo and other radios.
l) Improve the pim with rollover and a few other usability features.
m) multitasking
n)easier security (biometric scan best, if not possible, simple password protect like on the HP rx1950)
o) better out of the box MP3, movie playback software. iPod consumers are used to ultra-simplicity. Make anything complicated and you lose them. And dont put Fn demos! Put deluxe versions!
p)standard stereo jack.
q) USB
r) Boolean searched in Palm Desktop.
on and on and on.

COME ON GUYS GET TO WORK!! Stop this Foleo nonsense. Time is a wastin.

There is a VERY good reason the Fooleo was "demonstrated" with essentially NO software - there is no compatibility across the (PALM) ages in how applications treat data, thus no single automated sync program can easily be defined and programmed.

Theoretically, however, those buggy apps won't bring down the device AND bringing down that device won't freeze up your TREO.

Hmmm...let me think about that...inside a comm module, no response from dead Fooleo, poorly written TREO module...freeze...

Okay, maybe we'll have to wait to see what doesn't happen!

Giggle.

Base on the PR-fluffs that are beginning to come out of PALM (tonight) about "Foleo Software" it appears exactly this is how they'll get auto-sync working - require new apps.

PIM apps
Financial app
VNC app
FTP app
File manager
Zip utility
Backup utility
Photo viewer/editor
Database app
Video player
MP3 player
Word-compatible document editor
Excel-compatible spreadsheet editor

etc., etc

TVoR

I re-read your post a dozen times and analyzed every word and every concept repeatedly.
Your analysis has definitely got me thinking very deeply.

For fear of grossly contradicting everything I said in the past, you might actually be right. :-/ However, if I am wrong, I will admit it.

I need to think a lot more about this but your logic seems pretty strong; it is up there on the intellectual level of what I would expect from someone like Mr. Hawkins.

It is 'conceivable' that the near future might be one in which people have cells in their pocket for rapid fire in the field basic computing needs and when they settle down a bit, they can expand the experience via the Foleo.

You say that the Foleo is not meant to replace the laptop, but I think your logic leads down that path. I actually am starting to see the possibility of me porting over day to day personal life activities over to the Foleo and leaving the laptop in a special "just in case I need" room (gradually destined to be used less and less as time goes by and the Foleo application base and hardware specs improve).

hmm... You might have actually set in motion a working viable usability rationale in my head. You might have actually sparked something; for the first time I am actually considering buying a Treo and a Foleo and giving the next-gen concept a try.

So I just went to palm.com and they have a place where you can enter your email address to be notified when they ship.

Unfortunately this is the answer I got:
============
Service Unavailable - Zero size object
The server is temporarily unable to service your request. Please try again later.
Reference #15.a4ea7ce.1182150164.1bea7c6d
============

Is the Treo 680 a good choice to accompany the Foleo?
I am looking to buy it here:
http://canadastore.palm.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2573588&cp=1806915&parentPage=family

I am going to read up on all the Treo models but seems to me the 680 is a low cost fully featured, antenna-less, unlocked device that works in Canada. I don't actually need a powerhouse of a device. I mainly do PIM, MP3s, eBooks and the occasional movie.

I would appreciate any cautions or advice on the choice of the Treo and/or carrier in Canada. I think we pretty much only have a Bell and Rogers here.

I AM TAKING A LEAP OF FAITH AND TRUSTING JEEF HAWKINS ON THIS TREO+FOLEO CONCEPT ONLY BECAUSE HE IS THE INVENTOR OF THE PILOT. I hope I am not wasting my money.

but also:

> ...But since this Foleo has Wifi and it pushes data both up
> and down w/Treo, it changes the calculation...

Hmmm...

Well, you can't be any clearer than that. hehe I thank you for taking the time to list the pros and cons.

You are right about the apparent babbling nature of my posts last night. That is what happens when you are overworked, tired and still refuse to go to bed at 4 AM because you are intrigued with some stranger's post (sgiga) and are trying to understand a projection into the future about what mobile AND home computing will soon be like and if this future will answer my own needs. lol I slept on it, and I am still going ahead with the Treo 680 + Foleo purchases.

I watched Hawkins' Poleo presentation again last night on palm.com. I think he might be right about the future in which a Treo will become the core computer for most people's hectic lives and the Foleo expands that core mobile device when you are either sitting down at home or someplace at work. I will give you a concrete example of how a Foloe could help me in real life (just 1 of a dozens plans I now have).
I do weights and have built a special Excel sheet in which I punch in how many grams of any given food I eat. The sheet auto calculates the breakdown of the carb, protein, fat content etc. That faster and easier it is for me to get to that sheet, the better chances are I will still to my nutrition regiment. My laptop is cabled up to my desk and its not mobile. If I had a Foleo... the sheet is always available to me with a couple of seconds, in great simplicity AND.... get this... I think my sheet would be auto updated on my coming Treo, so when I leave my apartment, I know how many calories I can still eat in a day while Im out at work. The exciting parts for me here are

a) Foleo = bring it to any room. Don't have to run back to the cabled up laptop.
b) Easy and super fast access to Excel.
c) dual up down sync Foleo Treo so the data follows me out the door without me having to think about it.

And another example, when Im on the treadmill, I like to watch movies, I plan to play them on the Foleo because, again, my laptop is tied down to my desk and is not mobile at all. And if I want to crash down in bed or in my comfy sofa and read my websites, the Foleo makes that possible.

I am very excited by the practical uses here for myself.

I didn't follow Treos much, so no, I was not aware of battery problems. I am sure I can deal with it.
In any event, the 680 seems right for me. It is decently priced and its GSM unlocked. I looked at the carrier contract plans but decided that a) they are forcing you to buy a plan that would be overkill for my needs and b) I really don't like the idea of a locked phone and being a multi-year contract slave.

Im getting the cheapest plan I can, and really its only because I need it for emergencies. A few times this year I realized that having a cellphone would have been useful during emergencies. So my Treo 680 will fill up that void.

As for my current TX mobile computing activities, I will have to adapt to the little 320x320 screen, but I am not too worried because I am buying a Foleo which will take my computing approach in a whole new direction.
It is going to be fun to also have a camera in a mobile computing device for a change.

So I appear to be on track to retire:
- My local phone plan. Saves 30$ there.
- My camera (will keep it for rare times I need super high quality).
- My TX.
- And gradually my laptop. It will remain in a room for special needs like movie editing, downloading and stuff like that.

On a sidenote, I am considering reviving my www.palmgratis.com website. Will have 2 sections:

- Palm OS freeware
- Foleo Linux freeware

TVoR,
So I think what will happen in real life for me with this Foleo is I will likely use it around my apartment mainly, and occasionally throw it into my briefcase and bring it to work if I feel that on a given day I need to catch up on some personal data work while on lunch/break, or say if I need to demo something to friends/colleagues. And who knows, if it light enough, I might just throw into my briefcase everyday. But the plan is that for core "out in the field" rapid fire consulting/entering data needs, the 680 will play that role.
- For me the Foleo appears to be best suited for improved mobility within the home itself, and instant access/updating of my data and computer related entertainment.

What you really want is something that makes the capabilities of the phone more practical. You want something that at an instant can be hooked up to your phone for typing and displaying.... The Foleo is simply this logic followed to it’s ultimate and inevitable conclusion, and when this process finally is started it will amplify itself channeling even more money into phones and less into PCs.

Well put. That's the vision all right. I think Hawkins articulates his idea more clearly on Palm's web site than he managed to do during the D5 conference:

When we started this company in 1992 it was based on a very simple vision: that the future of personal computing would be mobile, that over time more and more of your personal computing needs would be satisfied by a device that fits in your pocket or purse.... We want to make the computer smaller and smaller, and we can do that. We can put more memory in it, we can put more data in it, we can put movies and pictures and so on. So we thought about the future, and we said, well, in the future people are going to have these very powerful portable computers in their pocket. But, they have these two limitations: there are times when you need a large display, and there are times when you need a large keyboard.... In our mind the future of mobile computing has and always will be small devices that are in your pocket, that contain all your data, access to the Internet and so on. And there is a need for a large screen experience..... We believe [Foleo] is really a beginning of a whole new wave of finally and truly making the mobile device that's in your pocket your primary PC.

One interesting thing that I think some people are missing is that Foleo is designed to work around the carriers' crippling of BT DUN (or the extortionist fees associated with using it to tether a laptop). The marquee feature is synchronization of the data that's on the phone, not out in the cloud somewhere. This sync API gives you a pretty good cost advantage over a cell-tethered laptop. For example, you could sync up all your RSS feeds and web sites on the handset (at a cheap data rate) then read them in offline-mode on the Foleo with no dial-up networking at all. Try that with your laptop over BT DUN and the carriers will shut you down.

Alternatively, if your life is full of free WiFi and you want to skip the pricey data plan from Cingular altogether, you can use your Foleo's WiFi connection to grab music and stuff to sync onto your phone and then have that in your pocket to use it like an iPod. Of course you can do that with your home PC, too... but then you'd have to be home at the time. (Admittedly, the first scenario is the more useful one.)

I agree with TVoR that VNC (or better still a remote control protocol that can tunnel through firewalls without a VPN) is a great tool for using your PC software without carrying a PC. But it also undermines his point that people should just buy a micro-laptop running desktop Windows. Why carry a slow-booting, hot-running Windows machine for $1000-$2,500 when you could run the occasional desktop app on the Foleo when you need it?

The Asus and VIA micro-laptops *look* like competition for Foleo (and there certainly *will* be competition) but how many companies have Palm's skill at making a mobile system really simple and responsive? I think Apple is the closest to having the right DNA, but Jobs seems petrified to do anything that might have a whiff of Newton about it.

It's going to be interesting, and Palm will have to execute well, but at this point I don't see Foleo being either ignored by consumers or blown out of the water by competition. I think it will be a good horse race.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com/blog

I use a Palm TX as my PDA... it has a nice viewable screen and is pocketable... I add my wireless keybeard and I can do a lot of my computing at the local coffee shop. With the TX's built in wifi I can check me email, surf the net a little, edit spreadsheets and Word documents. Basically I left my laptop behind ages ago.

What I would like is for my TX to be able to power a small bluetooth earpiece. Then my PDA will hold all my data... I could make or receive calls via the coupled earpiece... and I could enter more serious data via the couple keyboard. A near perfect trio to accomplish most of my daily needs.

This seems like a lot more useful, pocketable, and more affordable team of devices then the "Foleo Concept" that Palm is currently proposing.

But that just my opinion!

Respectfully,
Eric

When we started this company in 1992 it was based on a very simple vision: that the future of personal computing would be mobile, that over time more and more of your personal computing needs would be satisfied by a device that fits in your pocket or purse.... We want to make the computer smaller and smaller, and we can do that. We can put more memory in it, we can put more data in it, we can put movies and pictures and so on. So we thought about the future, and we said, well, in the future people are going to have these very powerful portable computers in their pocket. But, they have these two limitations: there are times when you need a large display, and there are times when you need a large keyboard.... In our mind the future of mobile computing has and always will be small devices that are in your pocket, that contain all your data, access to the Internet and so on. And there is a need for a large screen experience..... We believe [Foleo] is really a beginning of a whole new wave of finally and truly making the mobile device that's in your pocket your primary PC.

Nonsense. If you don't want the weight, you accept the compromises that using Treos present. If you're needing a large display and a large keyboard frequently then you'd need to carry the FOOLeo around frequently. If you're carrying around a 2 1/2 POUND FOOLeo all the time then why not carry around a 2 1/2 pound Real Windows laptop instead? Why compromise the software if you're willing to lug the weight? This whole "FOOLeo as bigger Treo keyboard/screen" positioning is nonsense. Hawkins is just using this argument to try to use Palm's beachhead/foot in the door (Treos) as a means of selling what would otherwise be unsellable (a non-Windows laptop with limited (no?) software). Please cut the B.S., Beersy. Unless the FOOLeo ships with software that lets users do pretty much EVERY COMMON FUNCTION that a Real Windows laptop does, then it's of limited use to MOST (not all) people.

Ask yourself these 2 questions:

a)What "problem"/need does the FOOLeo "solve"/address?
b) What other devices are available that also can address those issues and does this competition do the job "better" than the FOOLeo?

It's pretty obvious that if you're carrying around a 2 1/2 pound FOOLeo just to have a bigger screen/keyboard for your Treo, there are better options available (for MOST people).

There are 2 ways Palm could develop this concept. Which way they go depends on whether they see themselves as a SOFTWARE company vs. a CELLPHONE company vs. a HARDWARE company, and who they would prefer to compete with in the future:

Option 1 is to turn the FOOLeo into a standalone, fully-fledged, PalmLinux, instant-on microlaptop with a complete suite of (ideally MS Office-compatible) apps that just happen to also sync with PalmLinux +/- PalmOS 5 Treos. Push the small size, battery life, ruggedness, low cost to support, simplicity, "Zenness", and whatever other B.S. they can come up with that they think people might believe. In this case it doesn't really matter what phone is used, since the main function of the phone would be to act as a modem. Sit back and watch if flop. If if doesn't say "Windows" on it, business users (probably the ideal market for such a device) will avoid it like the plague. Furthermore, Palm would be competing with EVERY laptop maker in the world selling a Real Windows, Mac or Linux microlaptop.

Option 2 is to turn the Treo into a fully-fledged mini-computer running PalmLinux apps that can sync wirelessly to ONLINE databases of the SAME applications. Syncing can be realtime or on demand. If you want to get fancy, ensure the apps can also be run OFFLINE on any platform (Windows, Mac, Linux, PalmLinux) and that syncing can be triggered the next time users go online. Options to save predetermined numbers of timed backups of files online can be set in an app's (or better yet, file's) preferences. Suddenly, desktop/laptop OS doesn't matter. Paid Internet connection doesn't matter (if Wi-Fi is available). Hardware doesn't matter (ANY computer with a keyboard, screen and Internet connection can become the Treo's "bigger keyboard + screen"). All that matters is the smartphone.

Smartphone = New PC

S = N PC²

Palm gets to sell more Treos. Carriers love the continual data tranfers (most users would choose unlimited data packages)

Palm gets to sell FOOLeos to people that want cheap small computers to use on the go.

Palm gets to sell online storage for data (e.g. store personal music collections online + stream them on demand as a personal radio station).

Palm (optionally) gets to sell offline versions of its apps so users can work on files without an Internet connection.

Which option would a SMART company choose?

One interesting thing that I think some people are missing is that Foleo is designed to work around the carriers' crippling of BT DUN (or the extortionist fees associated with using it to tether a laptop). The marquee feature is synchronization of the data that's on the phone, not out in the cloud somewhere. This sync API gives you a pretty good cost advantage over a cell-tethered laptop. For example, you could sync up all your RSS feeds and web sites on the handset (at a cheap data rate) then read them in offline-mode on the Foleo with no dial-up networking at all. Try that with your laptop over BT DUN and the carriers will shut you down.

Syncing data to a FOOLeo is just Palm's way of trying to prod people into getting their feet wet. ONLINE syncing is where the real $$$ is - for both Palm and the carriers.

Alternatively, if your life is full of free WiFi and you want to skip the pricey data plan from Cingular altogether, you can use your Foleo's WiFi connection to grab music and stuff to sync onto your phone and then have that in your pocket to use it like an iPod. Of course you can do that with your home PC, too... but then you'd have to be home at the time. (Admittedly, the first scenario is the more useful one.)

That makes no sense, Beersy. People already have 2, 4, 8 GB SD cards for their Treos and store music LOCALLY. What significant advantage is there to grabbing an MP3 from an 8 GB SD card stored in a FOOLeo when you can just use the same card in the Treo instead? The REAL advantage would be syncing to a personal online folder of MP3 (e.g. 100GB) and either streaming the files or downloading them wirelessly to the Treo.

I agree with TVoR that VNC (or better still a remote control protocol that can tunnel through firewalls without a VPN) is a great tool for using your PC software without carrying a PC. But it also undermines his point that people should just buy a micro-laptop running desktop Windows. Why carry a slow-booting, hot-running Windows machine for $1000-$2,500 when you could run the occasional desktop app on the Foleo when you need it?

Two reasons:
- Windows SOFTWARE (Photoshop, games, voice recognition, Skype, specialialty/education apps, running DVDs... all blows the FOOLeo out of the water, Beersy. Get serious.)
- Performance (on a Real Windows computer just take your laptop out of suspension and you're back working with your full-featured app within seconds vs. slowly tunnelling in to your desktop with a FOOLeo + VNC (does Palm even have a PalmLinux VNC app coded? Probably not!) and then dealing with latency issues the whole time you're using the desktop app... No thanks.)

The Asus and VIA micro-laptops *look* like competition for Foleo (and there certainly *will* be competition) but how many companies have Palm's skill at making a mobile system really simple and responsive? I think Apple is the closest to having the right DNA, but Jobs seems petrified to do anything that might have a whiff of Newton about it.

Please don't EVER use the words "skill" and "Palm" in the same sentence again. Palm GOT LUCKY by choosing a clever OS. Everything else good that we've seen in the platform has come from clever developers outsmarting the platform's (severe) limitations and from other (now-departed) licensees like Sony, HandEra, TapWave and Handspring making good hardware + hacking the OS. Palm couldn't even code their own EMAIL app! Every time Palm has touched the OS recently it's broken something like a drunken toddler and promptly run off (cowardly) leaving the mess behind for developers to clean up. As a so-called developer, I'm surprised you would B.S. like that, Beersy. And in case you didn't realize, moderm hardware is able to BRUTE FORCE most problems that (pre-Vista) Windows + Windows apps present.

Real Windows Microlaptops make the FOOLeo look like an absolute joke. Don't embarass yourself by comparing the two in public again, Beersy.

It's going to be interesting, and Palm will have to execute well, but at this point I don't see Foleo being either ignored by consumers or blown out of the water by competition. I think it will be a good horse race.

You STILL don't get it, Beersy. This isn't about the FOOLeo. It's about the SOFTWARE.

Copyright, 2007
TVoR, Inc

At least at one point you ask a couple of good questions:
What problem does the Foleo solve?
What devices solve it better?

Since you've read and commented on my blog, you already have a pretty good idea where I stand on this. Foleo addresses a need for a simpler, more responsive, lower cost way to experience mobile applications with full-size PC screen and keyboard. Simpler than a desktop PC operating system. More responsive in that you never have to start or stop it, just open it up and it's instantly where you left off. And lower cost both in terms of the initial hardware investment and in ongoing data costs (it doesn't whack you with the carrier's huge penalty for tethering a laptop to a Bluetooth dial-up networking connection).

What devices solve those problems better? You tell me. At the moment I'm not seeing anything obvious. If UMPCs and OQOs solved these problems I think they'd be selling better than they are. If PDAs with slide-out keyboards did the trick we'd see more action on those, too. Mostly these fail because they're either too expensive, they aren't sufficiently ergonomic, or both. Laptops as small and light as the Foleo cost 3 times as much. The Asus and VIA micro-laptops look promising for price and form factor, but they're cheap and ugly, they look like they have cramped "condensed" keyboards and they aren't coming from companies known for good system development. We'll see what they're like when they come out.

I agree that the Foleo's long term success will depend on building a software ecosystem that fills lots of individual needs. I disagree that version 1.0 should ship loaded with all kinds of applications like a PC you get from Dell. It should be simple and focused, like the original Pilot. Give users the sense that it is a device they can customize for their own needs and interests, like the Pilot was. Email, PIM, MS Office documents, maybe a simple text editor. Make it "just work" and let the 3rd party developers take care of the rest.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com/blog

Well, Palm does, for one: http://www.palm.com/us/products/mobilecompanion/foleo/attachments.html

Does it allow users to edit the files + create new spreadsheets, or is it view-only?

Brilliant response, as always, David. You should have been a lawyer.
I'm not telling anyone what they need. I'm ASKING what needs the FOOLeo will fulfill that other devices won't fulfill more adroitly. So far I'm not finding a lot of reasons why MOST PEOPLE would choose a FOOLeo over a Treo or a traditional PDA + external keyboard combo, or a Real Windows (or Mac) laptop.

At least at one point you ask a couple of good questions:
What problem does the Foleo solve?
What devices solve it better?

Since you've read and commented on my blog, you already have a pretty good idea where I stand on this. Foleo addresses a need for a simpler, more responsive, lower cost way to experience mobile applications with full-size PC screen and keyboard. Simpler than a desktop PC operating system. More responsive in that you never have to start or stop it, just open it up and it's instantly where you left off. And lower cost both in terms of the initial hardware investment and in ongoing data costs (it doesn't whack you with the carrier's huge penalty for tethering a laptop to a Bluetooth dial-up networking connection).

I went to your pathetic blog and saw comments from a TVoR "fan" named The Diva of Reason. Let me guess: you posted this yourself in an effort to create a little controversy + get a little traffic to your website. How clever.
Each of the so-called advantages of the FOOLeo you list are either trivial or actually nonexistent:
- Anyone can buy a Real Windows laptop for less than a FOOLeo's true cost [$500 - $600 + price of whatever applications need to be purchased (like PIM apps!) to make the FOOLeo a (barely) functional device.]
- Have you tested the FOOLeo to back up you claim that it's "more responsive" than a Real Windows device?
- Windows devices in their basic form can also be very simple. All users have to do is not add much software (like the FOOLeo).
- Laptops have a "Suspend" ability that allows them to wake up within seconds.
- W T F are you going on about lower cost of data? With Wi-Fi + Bluetooth on a laptop the costs are the same as the FOOLeo. Also, anyone with a Sprint unlimited data SERO plan (as low as $30/month for 500 minutes of voice + unlimited EVDO) can tether as much as they want within reason. Since I don't use other carriers, I can't say they are the same about tethering, but your point is moot.

What devices solve those problems better? You tell me. At the moment I'm not seeing anything obvious. If UMPCs and OQOs solved these problems I think they'd be selling better than they are.

Wrong. UMPCs are a new category of device and up until now have been extremely expensive. As prices drop, more people will be willing to try them out. The new Sony Vaio U series is stunning. One version of it even comes with Flash instead of a hard drive. A well-designed UMPC would be a he11 of a lot more useful to MOST people than a FOOLeo.

If PDAs with slide-out keyboards did the trick we'd see more action on those, too.

Specious argument, Beersy. The lack of (all types of) PDA relates to a lot more factors other than what consumers want. Manufacturers killed PDAs - not consumers.

Mostly these fail because they're either too expensive, they aren't sufficiently ergonomic, or both.

Likely mainly because of cost.

Laptops as small and light as the Foleo cost 3 times as much.

Prices are falling quickly. UMPC and microlaptops costing $1000 or less are either here or coming Real Soon Now. And what is the TRUE COST of the FOOLeo? $500? $600? $600 + $100 in software to make it functional? W T F is Palm thinking?

The Asus and VIA micro-laptops look promising for price and form factor, but they're cheap and ugly,

Kind of like most of the stuff Palm makes these days...

they look like they have cramped "condensed" keyboards

If they're smaller/lighter than the FOOLeo, then I'll gladly take that trade.

and they aren't coming from companies known for good system development. We'll see what they're like when they come out.

And Palm IS known for good system development, right Beersy? Like the T3 toasting patch, and the Tungsten T5 headaches, and the NVRAM headaches, and the Treo 650 nightmares, and the Treo 700p issues, and the (recalled) Treo 700p bugfix, and the Treo 680 "issues", and the fatally laggy LifeDrive...

I agree that the Foleo's long term success will depend on building a software ecosystem that fills lots of individual needs. I disagree that version 1.0 should ship loaded with all kinds of applications like a PC you get from Dell. It should be simple and focused, like the original Pilot. Give users the sense that it is a device they can customize for their own needs and interests, like the Pilot was. Email, PIM, MS Office documents, maybe a simple text editor. Make it "just work" and let the 3rd party developers take care of the rest.

No, they need to do what Apple is doing with the iPhone: ship the device LOADED with most of the apps users could ever want. The Palm of the past 10 years initially shipped with no software because Palm was LAZY. The excuse they used for a LONG time was that they didn't wasn to compete with their precious developers. Yeah. Riiiiiiiiight. Now we know what Palm REALLY feels about developers! Most people aren't going to want to go hunting for apps for their $500 device. Palm evenntually figured this out with their PalmOS devices and later bundled MultiMail/VersaMail, Documents To Go, PocketTunes, etc. To try and pull the same B.S. again with the FOOLeo because Palm is unable to competently code a suite of apps for a $500 - $600 device is beyond ridiculous.

Time for you to switch into full Michael Mace-style Apologist Mode, Beersy. Your arguments are exceptionally weak. Then again, so is the FOOLeo.

TVoR