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Comments on: Hawkins Interview with Palm's Foleo Team

Palm has posted a podcast audio interview with Jeff Hawkins on the official Palm blog. The interview, concerning all things Foleo and conducted with an unnamed female interviewer, is surprisingly lengthy but does not get into the nitty-gritty technical points many long-term Palm afficionados are longing for. Overall, Hawkins' talk touches on the same issues touched upon at the D: All Things Digital conference on May 30th but is nevertheless worth listening to as he illustrates how this product is decidedly not a laptop or desktop PC replacement.

Hawkins' enthusiasm for the product continues to be on display throughout the interview as he predicts a revolution in peoples' work habits with the combination of a Foleo plus a connected smartphone such as the Treo.

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Does he make sense?

sgiga @ 6/19/2007 12:45:20 PM # Q
A powerful PC is needed for multimedia, gaming, video editing and a some other CPU intensive tasks. However, a powerful processor and lots of ram and disk space is not enough. A large screen is also essential (at least 19" as an absolute minimum), as well as some substantial amount of sound volume.

Trying to shrink all this into a Foleo sized package will not work. The CPU, RAM and HD - yes, but at the expense of battery life, heat and money. The screen and sound - no way, it is physically impossible. When peeling off all the things you don't need because you do not have the screen for it, you are left with the Foleo. A small, light, good looking device that does the job, and does it WITH the device you cannot be without - the phone.

This makes perfect sense, period.

Personally I am going to purchase a SE P1i as soon as it comes out (any day now), but I also want a Foleo kind of device. As soon as a Symbian compatible Foleo is ready, I will get it, wether it is made by Palm, SE, Nokia, Samsung, Microsoft or whatever.

RE: Does he make sense?
LiveFaith @ 6/19/2007 5:10:56 PM # Q
Obviously Palm currently has serious support issues ... Phonelink, Treo 700P, etc. That being said, Hawkins has made it clear on various occasions that Palm will support as many phones as possible with the Foleo. That SE seems to be a perfect case model for Foleo's target buyer. If they actually do that, then I would see that being done. Obviously, the both OS Treos, other WinMob phones would be targets. But Symbian could not be far behind surely. The E61,62, Nxxx & P9xx come immediately to mind.

But that's JMO.

Pat Horne

FOOLeo biotchslapped to DEATH by ASUS Eee PC
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 6/22/2007 4:33:06 AM # Q
http://www.hothardware.com/Articles/Hands_on_with_the_ASUS_Eee/

http://www.engadget.com/2007/06/05/asus-new-eee-pc-701-joins-the-laptop-lite-fray-with-a-bang/

$199 for model with 4 GB Flash hard drive
$299 for model with 8 GB Flash hard drive

Linux OS, but will support Windows XP install


VS.

FOOLeo:
- 128 MB RAM
- PalmLinux
- Not Windows compatible
- $599 ("$499 after initial mail in rebate")

In 2006, the Motorola Q shocked Palm with its low price and forced Palm to rethink its Treo pricepoints. The FOOLeo isn't even out yet and the competition has already savagely undercut Palm on pricing. Users can get 3 Eee PC for the price of ONE FOOLeo, for fcuks sake! W T F!!! Even the VIA NanoBook just got pwned by ASUS. At $199 and less than 2 pounds, ASUS has reached the sweet spot for impulse buyers, students, computer-phobic newbies, etc. If they get these things into Wal-Marts and Target stores, prepare for a revolution in the computer industry - for $199 these things can do 90% of the things that the average user does on their laptops. This device will be picked up for use as a near-disposeable laptop that can be carried anywhere for Internet surfing, email and document writing, Skype, etc. Install Windows, Microsoft SyncToy or Migo, back up files to an 8 GB SD card or USB Flash drive and feel free to take this microlaptop to places you would never take a $2000 Sony VAIO or Fujitsu Lifebook for fear of them being stolen. Too bad they don't offer an option for a Windows version for $50 more...

I Pity the FOOLeo. Once people see what $199 can buy, the $599 FOOLeo is going to have to have its price immediately cut to $299 (or "$399 plus $100 rebate" if they insist on playing games) if Palm hopes to sell ANY FOOLeos this year.

Can someone remind me again what Palm is doing introducing the FOOLeo in mid 2007?


TVoR

RE: Does he make sense?
SeldomVisitor @ 6/22/2007 7:43:33 AM # Q
> ...If they get these things into Wal-Marts and Target stores,
> prepare for a revolution in the computer industry - for $199
> these things can do 90% of the things that the average user
> does on their laptops...

How strange - I was just reminded by your post that I =do= want a cheap, carry around the house and to the pool laptop to do JUST surfing/email, pretty much.

And $200-$300 for a few hours in-between charges does fit that bill!

Hmmm...where's that credit card...

RE: Does he make sense?
SeldomVisitor @ 6/22/2007 7:48:22 AM # Q
> ...have its price immediately cut to $299 (or "$399 plus $100
> rebate" if they insist on playing games)...

That is not a game - it is HIGH-ROI Marketing:

-- http://www.google.com/search?q=rebate+scam

It would be interesting to see what percent of potential PALM rebates actually occur. Here's a related-link about Verizon and rebates (from the above search):

-- http://www.slate.com/id/2084210/

RE: Does he make sense?
Tuckermaclain @ 6/22/2007 5:59:44 PM # Q
The Asus is just what I've been looking for. I thought about a small Averatec, but at a fraction of the size and price how can one pass this up? Forget the Folly-Oh for now. I'll sync my T/C to the Asus.

Reply to this comment

seriously?

nybble @ 6/19/2007 12:45:39 PM # Q
Honestly, I didn't really get enthusiasm from that interview. He's said the same things that he's said before, nothing new technically or marketingly was revealed. I mean, does he honestly believe that people will have the 2.5lb Foleo around with them as much as they have their Treo?

I don't think the Foleo is necessarily a bad device or doomed to failure, but I do think it was absolutely the wrong time for Palm to be focussing on this thing instead of building out their Treo line.

http://comments.deasil.com/2007/06/19/more-foleo-thoughts/

RE: seriously?
sgiga @ 6/19/2007 1:21:56 PM # Q
"I don't think the Foleo is necessarily a bad device or doomed to failure, but I do think it was absolutely the wrong time for Palm to be focussing on this thing instead of building out their Treo line."

I agree. The problem with the Treo is that it doesn't sell. It is a very expensive device consisting of mediocre and buggy technology packed in a several year old design. I don't think the Foleo will sell more Treos, so why they market the Foleo as a Treo companion is very strange. I believe in the Foleo concept, but it has to be marketed as a phone campanion, this means has to work with Symbian, RIM, Linux and Microsoft, certainly not PalmOS Treos.

RE: seriously?
SeldomVisitor @ 6/19/2007 3:33:34 PM # Q
I think PALM has realized the TREO line - the entire smartphone line - is dead for them unless they do something "different" so they are going to concentrate on the Fooleo AND its ilk.

Someone somewhere around here just mentioned a 19" screen.

Not a problem, necessarily.

About 3 or 4 years ago I mentioned (somewhere) a "component system" of communicating devices (ala a stereo system where you can mix and match components that you purchased separately). Still seems doable.

And seems doable with the Fooleo "concept".

RE: seriously?
LiveFaith @ 6/19/2007 5:37:39 PM # Q
*The problem with the Treo is that it doesn't sell.*

Uh, what? At about 4pm today Colligen will read out loud how many gazillions they sold recently. The Treo is Palm's one-trick-pony these days. Yes, the vultures are beginning to circle b/c of the obvious oncoming competition from the phone giants + Palm's unwillingness to produce technically compelling upgrades. But Treos obviously still have great name recognition and currently ship well. It's the near future that has Palm looking like a buyout target.

*why they market the Foleo as a Treo companion is very strange.*
They really don't market it as a "Treo" companion. It's called "mobile companion" and JH has repeatedly said that Palm will try to accommodate as many phones as possible. Your list is a very good one that I would expect to see. POS+Linux, WinMob, Symbian, & RIM.

*I do think it was absolutely the wrong time for Palm to be focussing on this thing instead of building out their Treo line.*
I disagree for a couple of reasons.
First, "now" is not the time that Palm is focusing on this. Obviously, this kind of paradigm shift has taken the past few years behind the scenes. The price has been paid to a large degree b/c the first device is about to hit the shelves soon. Palm obviously shot itself in the foot with the horrible decision to spin off it's OS back when. The ramifications of that and the Palmsource collapse are obviously major factors in Palm's pathetic product roadmap since the Treo 650. It's been a 15mph school zone, not an interstate.
Also, I hope hope hope that Foleo's resources and brainpower contributed to that somewhat. In other words, I hope the worst of it is over and now the Treos can improve at a decent rate while the Foleo deployment and development builds steam. It looks like the unconnected PDA is finished, so Palm has it's eggs in two baskets. But the focus began a looong time ago in tech terms.
Second, next year would certainly be no better. Competition in the Smartfone market will be even greater for the Treos and the cry would be "not right now" then too. I don't know if Palm can pull off this companion vision or not, but I say this. They have to do something, and doing a features battle with Samsung, Nokia, SE, HTC & RIM is nothing more than a slow painful death. Palm knows that and so does the dark side. Foleo is something nobody else is doing. I mean nobody. That fact may be a blessing or a curse as we'll see. But, Palm is small. Small can innovate in a way that giants find difficult. Hawkins is obviously a successful visionary. Innovating is Palm's only chance for survival. The sooner the better too. Will they pull it off? ... story at 11. :-o

Pat Horne

RE: seriously?
SeldomVisitor @ 6/19/2007 6:41:23 PM # Q
> ...Hawkins is obviously a successful visionary...

Yes, LifeDrive One was pure genius.

RE: seriously?
sgiga @ 6/19/2007 7:27:21 PM # Q
I know that PalmOS has less than 0.2% of the smartphone market, obviously they cannot sell a whole lot. I don't know how many Windows Treos they sell, but HTC is the king in that branch. Symbian has 72% of the market.

It just seems odd for a device like Foleo to go after the smallest market segment available, to even consider it, at least from a marketing point of view. But then, maybe it is so generic that there is no major work to extend the Foleo to other operating systems?


RE: seriously?
LiveFaith @ 6/20/2007 12:41:37 AM # Q
Dude. Nice smackdown of poor little Palm there, but Hawkins has stated about 139 times that Palm will try to make the Foleo compat with as many different devices as possible. I'm not holding my breath since I've seen "Phonelink", but they are not looking to get a small piece of the "relatively" small Treo only market. A bit bigger I do B leave.

Pat Horne
RE: seriously?
Dr Opinion @ 6/20/2007 8:38:22 AM # Q
> "...I know that PalmOS has less than 0.2% of the smartphone market..."

Dude, that's just lame. Counting non-querty Symbian 60-series as "smartphones" comparable with the Treo is either a demonstration of your naivete or your agenda.

(1) Symbian can't sell zip in the US. But Treo's sell very, very well.
(2) Non-querty series-60 phones are pretty and all, but hardly functionally comparable to a Treo in real life.

The treo is capable of acting as a laptop replacement, with massive amounts of software and hardware available. It's a hugely successful platform, not a merely a ridiculously expensive yet pretty phone like the non-querty series-60 gadgets. I drive to a client, using the Treo as GPS, switiching between greek lessons on MP3 and concalls on speakerphone. I sync over the air with my home PC running Outlook, pull over, edit some powerpoint slides and send them on by email to a colleague. It just works.

Symbian? Dude, really.



------
"People who like M$ products tend to be insecure crowd-following newbies lacking in experience and imagination."

RE: seriously?
sgiga @ 6/20/2007 10:34:30 AM # Q
0.2% is 0.2% no matter how you look at it. MS got 4.5% or something (cant remember exactly). The main thing is that smartphone marked is growing 30-40% each year, and PalmOS is still selling less each year, not just in relative market share but in absolute numbers. QWERT is nice for Word and email in a business-centric phone, but is absolutely no necessity for a smartphone in general, just look at HTC, Mac - and of course Nokia and SE.

The reality is that the trend in smartphones has never been QWERTY, it's something RIM introduced with their email-only gadgets, and mainly in the US. Then the Treo came with QWERTY phone, but as much as I like Palm devices it is a large stretch to call the Treo a success by any standard compared with Symbian devices.

All the new top of the line smartphones does not have QWERTY (iPhone, SE W960, Nokia N95, HTCs and so on). Still - SE, Nokia and HTC also have smartphones with QWERTY, but they are mainly marketed as business phones aiming for the same small market segment as RIM is aiming at.

Clearly, there is a place for the Foleo here.

Reply to this comment

Right Idea, Wrong Implementation

Mevets @ 6/19/2007 9:21:02 PM # Q
Hawkins almost has the right idea.

Portable devices, that allow me to carry around all my data, have one flaw, I/O. Both the screen and the keyboard are too small.

The solution is not another device to carry around. The solution is having a large screen and keyboard available when I get to where I'm going.

I get to work, dock my portable, and use the full sized screen and keyboard. I take my portable when I leave work and dock it when I get home.

Dock it in my dorm room. And in the classroom. And in my bedroom when I'm home during breaks.

I could dock it in my hotel room. I could dock it in internet cafes. I could dock it a a friends house. I could dock it in my car. Airplanes, trains, buses, anywhere there is a compatible dock I can dock it.

And thus it is if I have a full sized computer where ever I go. Albeit not always while I'm going there.

My data and software are portable. With an interface suitable to portable interaction. Small keyboard, stylus, multi-touch, whatever. And thus always available.

Foleo is both too small and too big. It is the wrong solution.


RE: Right Idea, Wrong Implementation
Gekko @ 6/19/2007 9:24:50 PM # Q

Meta Pad: IBM's Prototype Modular Computer
IBM researchers have invented a prototype 9-ounce portable computing device that could pave the way for a new set of functionality in the handheld space. It can transform in seconds into a handheld, desktop, laptop, tablet or wearable computer, without having to be rebooted.


http://domino.research.ibm.com/comm/pr.nsf/pages/rsc.metapad.html



RE: Right Idea, Wrong Implementation
Mevets @ 6/19/2007 9:41:28 PM # Q
Cool, I didn't know about that.

Perhaps a bit before it's time, it sure looks "big" and clunky.

But probably doable today.



RE: Right Idea, Wrong Implementation
SeldomVisitor @ 6/20/2007 6:03:31 AM # Q
> Meta Pad...

Wow - there it is - the component computer system.

Cool.

Reply to this comment

Right Idea...5 years too late

Fat_Man @ 6/20/2007 2:26:19 AM # Q
The Foleo would have been an awesome device about 5 years ago. Now I think if you are going to carry something the size of a laptop... you would want it to do a lot more than just reading emails, editing docs, or viewing pictures. As internet content is heading to more and more multimedia based, why would you want to go with a Foleo when you can get relatively media rich laptop?

KAY
RE: Right Idea...5 years too late
VampireLestat @ 6/20/2007 3:44:39 AM # Q
Mevets,

Problem is that docking stations are not everywhere, and often they don't belong to you so you are not allowed to use them.

Docks are not mobile.
If you are camping, on a picnic, at a camp, at home, in a car, at a hotel, at work, in the living room, ON THE TOILET! Anywhere! the Foleo can be brought AND be connected via its Wifi OR the Treo's cell radio.

No one is saying the Foleo is to be squeezed like a prison weight into your pocket.
It is a physical extention to your future home, truly personal computer, the smartphone.

For me personally, I see it as being the ultimate, most optimized, most efficient, most pleasant way to get to my personal data and entertainment F A S T.

Of course laptops do everything, the point is the Foleo does things better, from a pragmatic real life human experience perspective.

RE: Right Idea...5 years too late
Mevets @ 6/20/2007 10:52:29 PM # Q
"Problem is that docking stations are not everywhere, and often they don't belong to you so you are not allowed to use them."

So put them everywhere. And make them usable by anyone.

I choose hotels the offer in room net access. More and more are doing so these days.

I choose cafes and restaurants that offer wifi. Popping up everywhere (even a local gas station offers free wifi!).

Hotels can offer them. Airlines and airports could offer them. Colleges could have them in dorms, lecture halls, classrooms, labs, student unions, ...

Perhaps you've been in a hotel with a business center. you know, computers, printers, net access available for anyone to use. The Western Wetherill Inn, in Kayenta, Arizona, the middle of nowhere, has a computer and printer for guest use. I've used it.

Maybe you've seen similar setups in airports, train and bus stations.

"Docks are not mobile."

Firm grasp of the obvious there kiddo ...

They are not meant to be. Small and portable AND big and stationary.

"If you are camping, on a picnic, at a camp, at home, in a car, at a hotel, at work, in the living room, ON THE TOILET!"

If I'm camping I not gonna want to drag a Foleo with me. Likewise if I'm at a camp. Or at a picnic. Something like an iPhone would suit my needs much better then a wanna be laptop.

At home, at work, or in a hotel I can have a docking station. In a car a dock linked into the GPS and entertainment system, just add a keyboard.

I do other things on the toilet. But I suppose a docking station could be set up there. I've been in hotels with ethernet jacks in the bathroom so why not a docking station?

As to Foleo, for me, personally, I see it as the last gasp of a dying company.

Sad, very sad. Palm coulda been a contender.

MevetS

RE: Right Idea...5 years too late
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 6/21/2007 1:20:22 AM # Q
>>>Problem is that docking stations are not everywhere, and often they don't belong to you so you are not allowed to use them."

So put them everywhere. And make them usable by anyone.

No, just create web-accessible apps that save data to folders that sync with the FOOLeo or Treo. That way anyone with access to an Internet-connected desktop/laptop can create files for their mobile devices.

RE: Right Idea...5 years too late
Mevets @ 6/22/2007 8:08:47 PM # Q
"That way anyone with access to an Internet-connected desktop/laptop can create files for their mobile devices."

Nope. Try again. Not everywhere I want to use my data will be connected to the internet. Nor am I just trying to get files on my portable device. I want to view my docs on a large screen. I want a full size keyboard. I just don't want to carry them around. Nor do I want a half assed thing like Fooleo.

I have a cabin in the country. No internet. I can carry my portable device, with all my data, with me when I go there. Drop it in the dock. And I'm not force to use a mini screen or a chicklet keyboard.

Note that the dock could be a full computer. Or it could be a Fooleo class device done right (screen, keyboard, mouse, with the portable device providing the processing power).

The key idea is that the portable device is truly portable (not pseudo portable like Fooleo) and the non-portable device is full size. A phone or PDA size device that I can drop in my pocket.

MevetS

Internet apps + apps running off USB Flash drives = perfection.
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 6/22/2007 11:04:27 PM # Q
whom>>>"That way anyone with access to an Internet-connected desktop/laptop can create files for their mobile devices."

Nope. Try again. Not everywhere I want to use my data will be connected to the internet. Nor am I just trying to get files on my portable device. I want to view my docs on a large screen. I want a full size keyboard. I just don't want to carry them around. Nor do I want a half assed thing like Fooleo.


http://www.palminfocenter.com/comments/9472/#134061

The FOOLeo hardware is a joke. Give us online syncing, Palm.
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 6/20/2007 11:17:35 AM #

"If my PDA/smartphone had 8 or more gigs of storage, the external hard drive would be gone. I'd sync my data at the end of a work day onto my handheld, take it home in my pocket, "link" up with my "Foleo" (perhaps some later generation device), and have something that much more closely resembles what I was looking for when I bought the second laptop"

SOLUTION:

http://store.migosoftware.com/product.php?productid=16135&SourceId=&cat=0&page=1

http://www.kingston.com/flash/dt_IIplusmigo.asp


********************************************************************************

As I've posted before, the true "innovation" in the FOOLeo concept would only be if Palm has figured out wireless syncing between smartphones and online servers. Palm needs to offer online apps that can be used via any Internet-connected computer, allowing app data to be saved online + automatically synced to a user's smartphone (or ANY other device, for that matter, including a FOOLeo). Even better would be to offer a full-featured suite of apps stored on a USB Flash drive that would allow the apps to be run temporarily (+ without any traces being left behind) on a host computer + then would automatically upload file changes to a user's personal space on Palm's server, save the data to the USB Flash drive + wirelessly update the smartphone/other devices in the user's profile.

THAT is the TVoR vision of the future:
1) Full-featured apps always accessible via either web apps or on a USB Flash drive.
2) Automatic saving/syncing of data to online server, smartphone, +/- USB Flash drive, and any other wirelessly connected device capable of communicating with a user's online storage folder.

The key is the software governing the data transfers. Hardware and OS become unimportant.

Wireless data syncing is so much more a significant idea in next-generation computing that Hawkins must be embarassed pimping this pathetic little FOOLeo like a played-out ho. Palm's apparent failure to realize Hawkins' vision is shaping up to be a spectacular failure. This would mark the third time the company has taken one of his brilliant ideas and failed to execute, leaving the door wide open for the competition to cash in on his ideas. Well done, Palm.

TVoR


How to get a FOOLeo equivalent for $24. SHOCKER!!!
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 6/22/2007 11:47:54 PM # Q
http://www.junefabrics.com/pdareach/index.php

Control your Treo from your desktop, use desktop to enter data into Treo... hmmmm...

RE: Right Idea...5 years too late
twrock @ 6/24/2007 10:21:46 AM # Q
TVOR, I still don't understand why the USB drive is so "desirable" in your vision of the future. There is no reason why one's smartphone can't do everything that USB drive can do and much more. Even a "completely stupid" phone can do whatever the USB drive can if it is simply equipped with "drive mode" and the other software you have mentioned.

If the smartphone is the "PC", it makes a lot of sense to me to have the data on that, not to carry around an additional "dumb" storage device that requires additional hardware if the data is to be accessed by the user. I can't even look at the data on a USB drive without connecting "it" (or its data) into something else. It isn't "mobile computing" if have to use another machine that I don't carry with me to minimally access my data.

Ok, maybe it's time for me to just give up on asking this question. It's your "vision"; have it however you like. However, in my vision I want a mobile PC (preferably with voice) that carries all my data, and lets me minimally access that data (and preferably edit it as well) in a reasonable format (i.e. large enough screen). It would also allow me to sync my data onto the web and/or with my other "base" devices (my desktop, laptop, or some other terminal device). I want to be able to work with the data on the mobile. I want to be able to pair it with my other devices so that data change anywhere is reflected everywhere. If what you are suggesting is included on the smartphone (the ability to run apps on a third-party device without leaving a trace), then all the better.


Thinking about Vista? Think again: http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/pubs/vista_cost.txt
Want an alternative? Try this: http://www.ubuntu.com/ or http://www.mepis.org/

TVoR lets the cat out of the bag: More hints of the FUTURE...
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 6/25/2007 2:27:27 AM # Q
TVOR, I still don't understand why the USB drive is so "desirable" in your vision of the future. There is no reason why one's smartphone can't do everything that USB drive can do and much more. Even a "completely stupid" phone can do whatever the USB drive can if it is simply equipped with "drive mode" and the other software you have mentioned.

The USB flash drive isn't mandatory - it would just be a convenient way of temporarily loading an environment of custom applications onto a host computer. Yes, the apps could instead be strictly Web-based, but that means an Internet connection would be mandatory in order to be able to work on a bigger screen. The apps could also reside on the (PalmLinux) Treo and then be accessed when connected to the host computer with a USB cable. If the Treo app is able to use PdaReach-like linking to the host computer and is (ideally) able to scale the Treo app up to fit the host computer's screen then all you would ever need is literally just your Treo and a USB cable. (Or even leave the cable at home if the process works over Wi-Fi.)

MotionApps has an application theat does basically this (scales to the host computer's screen size when the Treo is connected via USB or Wi-Fi) and hints at the Treo's future:

http://www.motionapps.com/mexpenses/_treo700p.jsp

This is an absolutely BRILLIANT concept, and plays perfectly into Hawkins' vision of the Treo as the PC of the future: apps and data residing on the Treo, but ALWAYS accessible from ANY computer.

I believe Palm intends to release a PalmLinux Treo with similar functionality . But first they need to ensure something like POSE works reliably under PalmLinux, so that legacy PalmOS apps are still supported. Then we'll see a series of PalmLinux apps that work both on the Treo and on a desktop/laptop screen when the Treo is connected. The biggest problem in all this is the SPEED at which Palm's software development has moved. If only these concepts had been ready for release 1 or 2 years ago...

TVoR

Reply to this comment

Hawkins' interview.

VampireLestat @ 6/20/2007 3:34:02 AM # Q
Just finished listening to it.

He is right on the money.
- Instant on (not seconds like Suspend-mode)
- Ultra-compact (not 'small but still larger than Foleo laptops).
- Grab-n-Go. Feel compelled to use more often because it has a '0 harassment' factor (not a 1 or 2 factor for lappies).
- Light enough to constantly carry in backpack, briefcase, purse.

Something no one is talking about...
TOTAL SILENCE.

I actually switched to laptops because I was going crazy with desktop noises.

Foleo? 100% silent. No moving parts.

Come on guys, we have to give it to him. If we really be honest here and think about it, we all know we are frustrated with semi-mobile laptops, weights, noise, speed, complexity, instantness.

I know many of you are like in my in that we have often not worked on something or played with something because it was too long to load, find or whatever.

I am anxious to order a Foleo.

RE: Hawkins' interview.
EdH @ 6/20/2007 6:58:03 AM # Q
Vampire Lestat said
Come on guys, we have to give it to him. If we really be honest here and think about it, we all know we are frustrated with semi-mobile laptops, weights, noise, speed, complexity, instantness.

Uhm... actually, we don't, and I'm not.

The only person the folio will appeal to is non-laptop users. Laptop users will never sacrifice the capability of a desktop OS. The question is, will people that currently travel without a laptop see value in the Foleo? I am thinking no, but we'll have to wait until it launches.

RE: Hawkins' damage control
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 6/20/2007 8:48:10 AM # Q
He is right on the money.

Vampy, are you well? Do you not realize that the FOOLeo that was announced is the equivalent of an alpha release? Palm is putting this "CRAPTOP" out because they can't wait on development any longer and are hoping that third party developers will complete the work that Palm's own codemonkeys were incapable of finishing. Get a clue.

- Instant on (not seconds like Suspend-mode)

Have you ever used a laptop? By the time you sit down and get ready to type it's out of suspend and ready to use. Instant-on is useful for PDAs where you are mainly ACCESSING data on the go, while standing/walking/etc. The FOOLeo will be used like a regular laptop - sitting down and ENTERING data. A 2 or 3 second advantage in starting a FOOLeo is meaningless. Think about it.

- Ultra-compact (not 'small but still larger than Foleo laptops).

??? Real Windows UMPC and microlaptops are available in sizes the same as, smaller than and bigger than the FOOLeo. And they aren't crippled by a lack of useful software.

Compare an IBM X60 to the FOOLeo: http://www.pc.ibm.com/us/thinkpad/3dtours/x60/demo.html

Compare a Fujitsu P1610 to the FOOLeo:
http://store.shopfujitsu.com/fpc/Ecommerce/buildseriesbean.do?series=P1610

People that need REAL computing power will choose a REAL computer. The FOOLeo is a toy akin to the first two (alpha + beta) versions of Nokia's Internet tablet.

- Grab-n-Go. Feel compelled to use more often because it has a '0 harassment' factor (not a 1 or 2 factor for lappies).
- Light enough to constantly carry in backpack, briefcase, purse.

B.S. Real Windows portables are available that are smaller + lighter than the FOOLeo. Plus they actually have REAL software that allows users to do REAL work. "Harassment" is Palm not providing any software for a $500 device that should really sell for $300.

Something no one is talking about...
TOTAL SILENCE.

I actually switched to laptops because I was going crazy with desktop noises.

Foleo? 100% silent. No moving parts.

Now you're REALLY reaching for ways to rationalize the FOOLeo. I seriously doubt noise will be an issue for 99.99% of users. Try again.

Come on guys, we have to give it to him. If we really be honest here and think about it, we all know we are frustrated with semi-mobile laptops, weights, noise, speed, complexity, instantness.

I know many of you are like in my in that we have often not worked on something or played with something because it was too long to load, find or whatever.

I am anxious to order a Foleo.

You are so wrong it's actually kind of pathetic. Frustrating will be how FOOLeo victims feel once they get hit with all of its software limitations and then realize they could have bought a Real Wimdows laptop for the same price. If you order a FOOLeo before trying it out in person (or at least seeing a few impartial reviews) you are a FOOL(eo).

TVoR

P.S. When you're posting a new thread it would be nice if you put all your thoughts into a single post rather than a stream of consciousness of 50 follow up posts.

RE: Hawkins' interview.
SeldomVisitor @ 6/20/2007 8:58:12 AM # Q
> ...You are so wrong it's actually kind of pathetic...

Indeed.

RE: Hawkins' interview.
twrock @ 6/20/2007 9:42:00 AM # Q
The only person the folio will appeal to is non-laptop users.

I really think this is an exaggeration. I own two laptops, one at work and one at home. The hassle of transporting a laptop back and forth every day coupled with the relative fragility of a fairly expensive machine resulted in my decision to buy the second one for home use. I'm still a bit "old-school", so my data travels with me in the form of a small USB hard drive. (I might eventually shell out the big bucks for a big enough flash drive, but the hard drive is small enough and convenient enough for now.)

I will readily admit that the Folio as I currently understand it (i.e. as I currently understand the specs and features and probable bundled software) is not the device I am looking for. BUT, it could easily be. It would take very little change for it to be the device I was looking for when I bought my second laptop. (Unfortunately asking for "very little change" from Palm is probably a useless endeavor.)

Instead I have a small 12" laptop that is still too heavy (in spite of it's 4 lbs. weight), too bulky, too bloated (primarily if I boot into the Windows partition; Ubuntu Linux is better, but still too much OS overhead), and too hot. How many of these issues would a properly configured/spec'ed Foleo take care of for me? Yeah, I know that there are "microlaptops" that come close to doing all of that, but in almost every case there is some "deal killer" that keeps me from seriously considering them (undersized keyboard, oversized cost, same old bloat, etc.)

My point isn't that the Foleo is "right" for me right now, only that it does "appeal" to me (in the sense that I can imagine how it could be "right" for me). I can also imagine how it might appeal to other laptop owners even in its current configuration. If my PDA/smartphone had 8 or more gigs of storage, the external hard drive would be gone. I'd sync my data at the end of a work day onto my handheld, take it home in my pocket, "link" up with my "Foleo" (perhaps some later generation device), and have something that much more closely resembles what I was looking for when I bought the second laptop.

So I've got two laptops, and this "type of" thing still appeals to me. They do need to spec it properly, include the "minimum" of software (particularly a rich web experience, a full PIM suite and support for "office" documents). Then "appeal" would probably graduate to "desire". And if they'd finally unplug their collective ears and start listening to the host of people who have been clamoring forever for a "Treo 480" (http://www.palminfocenter.com/comments/9470/#133892), they just might sell me two devices!

(Palm, can you hear me now?!!!)


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Want an alternative? Try this: http://www.ubuntu.com/ or http://www.mepis.org/

RE: Hawkins' interview.
twrock @ 6/20/2007 10:08:34 AM # Q
Oh, I thought I'd better clarify one thing before I'm misunderstood:

VL, I think you need to take a deep breath and slow down (as others have suggested). My post was not meant in any way to be an "encouragement" to anyone to go right out and pick up the Foleo the moment it hits the streets. Although I can imagine people who might really want this "first generation" device, I not at all convinced you are one of them. With how quickly you went from vowing to leave Palm forever over this failure of a product to believing that the Foleo is "the ultimate, most optimized, most efficient, most pleasant way to get to my personal data and entertainment F A S T", I'm afraid that less then 48 hours from the time you start using one you'll be back here bemoaning all of the limitations you didn't realize it had.

From everything I've seen so far, this Foleo is not being designed to be "the ultimate, most optimized, most efficient, most pleasant way to get to my personal data and entertainment F A S T." If that is what you expect, I'm afraid it will be nothing more than a terrible disappointment.


Thinking about Vista? Think again: http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/pubs/vista_cost.txt
Want an alternative? Try this: http://www.ubuntu.com/ or http://www.mepis.org/

The FOOLeo hardware is a joke. Give us online syncing, Palm.
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 6/20/2007 11:17:35 AM # Q
If my PDA/smartphone had 8 or more gigs of storage, the external hard drive would be gone. I'd sync my data at the end of a work day onto my handheld, take it home in my pocket, "link" up with my "Foleo" (perhaps some later generation device), and have something that much more closely resembles what I was looking for when I bought the second laptop

SOLUTION:

http://store.migosoftware.com/product.php?productid=16135&SourceId=&cat=0&page=1

http://www.kingston.com/flash/dt_IIplusmigo.asp


********************************************************************************

As I've posted before, the true "innovation" in the FOOLeo concept would only be if Palm has figured out wireless syncing between smartphones and online servers. Palm needs to offer online apps that can be used via any Internet-connected computer, allowing app data to be saved online + automatically synced to a user's smartphone (or ANY other device, for that matter, including a FOOLeo). Even better would be to offer a full-featured suite of apps stored on a USB Flash drive that would allow the apps to be run temporarily (+ without any traces being left behind) on a host computer + then would automatically upload file changes to a user's personal space on Palm's server, save the data to the USB Flash drive + wirelessly update the smartphone/other devices in the user's profile.

THAT is the TVoR vision of the future:
1) Full-featured apps always accessible via either web apps or on a USB Flash drive.
2) Automatic saving/syncing of data to online server, smartphone, +/- USB Flash drive, and any other wirelessly connected device capable of communicating with a user's online storage folder.

The key is the software governing the data transfers. Hardware and OS become unimportant.

Wireless data syncing is so much more a significant idea in next-generation computing that Hawkins must be embarassed pimping this pathetic little FOOLeo like a played-out ho. Palm's apparent failure to realize Hawkins' vision is shaping up to be a spectacular failure. This would mark the third time the company has taken one of his brilliant ideas and failed to execute, leaving the door wide open for the competition to cash in on his ideas. Well done, Palm.

TVoR

P.S. Feel free to plagiarize me on your stupid blog, Beersy.

RE: Hawkins' interview.
twrock @ 6/20/2007 12:25:31 PM # Q
All good ideas/paradigms. Replace the USB drive in your vision with "whatever handheld device" and it makes plenty of sense. Maybe I'm not completely understanding you, but doesn't the data storage hardware you carry with you not need some form of "I/O" to be useful while you are mobile? Minimally you are going to need a screen to see it (output) and some way to manipulate/access it (input). In that case, why bother with the USB flash drive when the smartphone can be the data storage unit as well? This is why I can see the value of what Hawkins is trying to convince us: the smartphone is the "UMPC" of the mobile future. But yes, as you point out, the "software" is really critical in this model. All the synchronization has to "just work" and do it flawlessly and effortlessly.

Back to today. The Kingston is good, but not yet large enough to handle all my data (I've got a four gig flash drive, but that isn't big enough; currently I need eight or more).
The MigoSync is quite intriguing, particularly because is allows for different hardware options. I'm not sure if I want that "much" sync, but it looks like it is a good option. I'm just using MS's SyncToy at the moment, so the work laptop and the external hard drive get synchronised and the laptop at home just accesses the external drive's files directly. It's free and simple to use. My guess is that it might even do quite a bit more than I'm currently asking from it.


Thinking about Vista? Think again: http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/pubs/vista_cost.txt
Want an alternative? Try this: http://www.ubuntu.com/ or http://www.mepis.org/

RE: Hawkins' interview.
hkklife @ 6/20/2007 12:38:58 PM # Q
Flash drives are at the point now where hard drives were back in 1998/1999 or so...I went from a 1.2gb HD in '95 to a 2.1gb in '96 to a 4.3gb in '98. Throughout that progression I constantly felt cramped (especially when MP3s got big in '97/'98ish) by the ever-increasing bloat of Windows and all of the games hitting the market.

Then I got a 20gb in '99 and was able to breathe easier before the 45gb I got in '00 really made things easier and I haven't looked back since.

Right now 4gb on a single card in a Treo/PDA is the baseline for what I can comfortably "live with" as far as media/files/apps/TomTom map data. 8gb would be a lot nicer and I could probably handle everything imaginable other than my huge music collection with 16gb. Ideally, I'd be able to carry around my entire music collection at reasonable bitrates (~120gb) with room to spare for all of the mundane stuff.

Treos, iPhones, and everthing else on the market are still in their infancy with sub-8gb capacities, whether internal or on a removable card(s). At least as far as I'm concerned, we won't start having mobile "life" drives until affordable flash capacities hit 30gb+ and then, ideally, 100gb+.



Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5-->TX-->Treo 700P

RE: Hawkins' interview.
cervezas @ 6/20/2007 1:38:24 PM # Q
TVoR wrote:
Feel free to plagiarize me on your stupid blog, Beersy.

Gosh, thanks, "Michelle" a.k.a "PalmDiva." I hope you'll keep stopping by, sweetheart! ;)

I like the thumbdrive vision except that, like Ron, I want the flash memory to be inside my smartphone where I can access it without a PC.

The online sync stuff TVoR is talking about is not the future. It's the present. It's done, it's carrier grade, it runs on all the Treos and it's free open source software. If you want it, just go get it: http://www.funambol.com. Helio apparently liked it enough that it's the foundation for the contact sync capabilities of the Ocean and all their future handsets.

And I second the motion that VampireLestat needs to take a cold shower. He's getting his expectations on the first version of Foleo way too high right now which means he'll only be back here cursing again in a few months. Vamp: I hate to say this, but I really don't think Foleo is aimed at uber-enthusiast power users like yourself. Not right out of the gate. Initially, I expect it will be aimed at doing just a couple of things well: email and office docs. Try to temper your enthusiasm (which I share) with a good dose of realism and remember that the Palm PDA you use today wasn't the first one Palm ever released.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: Hawkins' interview.
BaalthazaaR @ 6/20/2007 2:56:16 PM # Q
Why carry a mobile storage device to transfer data from work to home and vice versa? Try setting up an rsync server on both machines and then you can just transfer what has changed back and forth. And since rsync figures out what has changed in the source location as compared to the destination and transfers just that, it is extremely painless to do so. All you have to do is run the command. And all of that is available for free (ships with the free cygwin download) except for the internet connection which I presume you already have.
RE: Hawkins' interview.
cervezas @ 6/20/2007 3:21:39 PM # Q
Why carry a mobile storage device to transfer data from work to home and vice versa? Try setting up an rsync server on both machines...

Well, for one thing, most offices have firewalls. rsync can work through a firewall if you know what you're doing, but most client offices I've worked in also have the remote shell ports blocked so you have to get a network admin for a special favor that he most definitely does not want to give you.

If you really want to be mobile with your computing environment you learn quickly that the key is to figure out how to do an end-run around the gatekeepers: the IT department, the network admins, and the wireless carrier. It's the way that Foleo lets you work around the carriers' obstruction of dial-up networking that I find particularly clever. I've never been able to get a laptop to connect to the outside world from inside one of my client's buildings: not through ethernet (without a password for the proxy server), not through wifi (without a WPA key), and not by tethering to my phone (without risking monstrous penalties from the carrier). With a Foleo I can do it because it can use the smartphone to send and receive email and just sync to that. I've evaded all the gatekeepers.


David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: Hawkins' interview.
BaalthazaaR @ 6/20/2007 5:34:15 PM # Q
That comment was intended for twrock who stated that he carries data back and forth on a usb hard drive to update both his work laptop and his home laptop. I presumed that it was not e-mail since he said it was data. And I presumed that like most companies whose employees work from home, they provide a VPN client to connect to the office network. My mistake.
RE: Hawkins' interview.
cervezas @ 6/20/2007 6:22:06 PM # Q
A lot of people have VPN access to their office PC from home, but like twrock they carry flashdrives because they don't have VPNs on their home network that they can connect to from the office. So your rsync solution doesn't work except when they are home. That's all.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com/blog
RE: Hawkins' interview.
BaalthazaaR @ 6/20/2007 7:06:11 PM # Q
Not to nit-pick, but, rsync allow both push and pull so they'd just have to run it at home. It is more of a suggestion if anyone is interested.
RE: Hawkins' interview.
twrock @ 6/20/2007 7:41:06 PM # Q
My mistake.


No mistake from my perspective. Yes, you were correct, it isn't about email or favorites or anything more than simple data access. That's part of why I said I was "old school" about this. I just like the "secure" feeling of having it "on me". I am aware there are really cool stuff I could do with net syncing and even that it is free and painless. Just a creature of habit, and this was the habit I got into.

All of my data on my Palm "whatever" is just a slight "adjustment" to what I am doing now. And it's an adjustment with a lot of perceived advantage on my part. Always available everywhere I am with no cost of access. That's why I want all of that data on my Palm, because on a hard drive or a USB drive, I still can't access it while I'm mobile (without paying for that access).

Thanks for the suggestions. Someday someone just might teach an old dog new tricks.


Thinking about Vista? Think again: http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/pubs/vista_cost.txt
Want an alternative? Try this: http://www.ubuntu.com/ or http://www.mepis.org/

RE: Hawkins' interview.
twrock @ 6/20/2007 9:34:57 PM # Q
Right now 4gb on a single card in a Treo/PDA is the baseline for what I can comfortably "live with" as far as media/files/apps/TomTom map data. 8gb would be a lot nicer and I could probably handle everything imaginable other than my huge music collection with 16gb.

I bought my first laptop in 1999. IBM Thinkpad with 4.3 gb hard drive. Plenty big enough for Win 98, all my apps and all my data ... for about a year. Then a bump to 20, and then a bump to 30 (the BIOS limit). Now I use that old 20 gb drive as my portable data drive (gave away the Thinkpad).

An eight gig flash drive would only give me a very small buffer at this point. I just love watching the cost dropping rapidly on the big flash drives (I paid about $20 for my 4 gig one). It'll be great to either carry all my data on a "keychain" or (if Palm ever figures out that they need to deliver a large screened, keyboardless Treo) in my smartphone.


Thinking about Vista? Think again: http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/pubs/vista_cost.txt
Want an alternative? Try this: http://www.ubuntu.com/ or http://www.mepis.org/

RE: Hawkins' FLUFF
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 6/20/2007 11:39:40 PM # Q
In that case, why bother with the USB flash drive when the smartphone can be the data storage unit as well?

Data redundancy. Plus, if a user has no Internet connection and is running the programs off the USB flash drive, then the modified files can be saved directly to the flash drive, allowing them to sync the data later on when they're at a computer with an Internet connection.

There are several different permutations and combinations that would work, but the bottom-line is that Palm needs to have a bulletproof syncing protocol in place, allowing wirelessly connected devices to exchange data with databases stored within a user's online folder. If Palm does not have such a system ready to roll out at this point in time then I doubt they have what it takes to pull off this type of an integrated system. Ironically, Palm is probably the ideal company to have come up with such a system, since they have the potential to profit from sales of components anywhere within the syncing chain. Most other companies (e.g. Microsoft, Apple etc.) would probably be too worried about compromising one of their mature revenue streams (e.g. OS sales, application sales, data transmission sales, etc.) to want to actively pursue this type of data exchange architecture. (It's just too easy to design a system that removes the importance of proprietary components that had previously been profitable for traditional companies.)

TVoR

RE: Hawkins' interview.
twrock @ 6/21/2007 7:26:41 AM # Q
I can understand wanting redundancy. On the other hand, since everything should be syncing to the web "somewhere" or via the web/wifi/bluetooth/wired connection to another one of your other devices (i.e. either while you are mobile or after you get to one of your "bases"), I'd be pretty comfortable that I have redundancy "enough". I would hope that in the "ultimate" model for mobile computing, anything a USB flash drive can do the smartphone can do better given that the smartphone has a real "brain" and can do much more than store data. Maybe I'm still just not getting it, but the USB drive still seems really unnecessary if "everyone" is going to want to be carrying a phone anyway.

[completely off topic rant]
On a completely unrelated topic, I've got to say that I hate the touchpad placement on my Dell 700m! It's slightly off center to the right and it is very sensitive. I hit the spacebar exclusively with my right thumb and often inadvertently touch the pad. The text input cursor then jumps to wherever I left the mouse cursor, and I'm suddenly typing away in the middle of some previous paragraph! I know, I know, I should just turn off the "tap to click" feature, but I usually really like it on. I still think a trackpoint is superior. One more feature of the Foleo that I find appealing.
[/completely off topic rant]


Thinking about Vista? Think again: http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/pubs/vista_cost.txt
Want an alternative? Try this: http://www.ubuntu.com/ or http://www.mepis.org/

Reply to this comment

Hawkins' interview.

VampireLestat @ 6/20/2007 3:34:05 AM # Q
Just finished listening to it.

He is right on the money.
- Instant on (not seconds like Suspend-mode)
- Ultra-compact (not 'small but still larger than Foleo laptops).
- Grab-n-Go. Feel compelled to use more often because it has a '0 harassment' factor (not a 1 or 2 factor for lappies).
- Light enough to constantly carry in backpack, briefcase, purse.

Something no one is talking about...
TOTAL SILENCE.

I actually switched to laptops because I was going crazy with desktop noises.

Foleo? 100% silent. No moving parts.

Come on guys, we have to give it to him. If we really be honest here and think about it, we all know we are frustrated with semi-mobile laptops, weights, noise, speed, complexity, instantness.

I know many of you are like in my in that we have often not worked on something or played with something because it was too long to load, find or whatever.

I am anxious to order a Foleo.

RE: Hawkins' interview.
VampireLestat @ 6/20/2007 3:54:51 AM # Q
Umm.. and 5 hours battery life.
That extra hour or THREE is important you know. Make a huge difference in how we perceive and use a mobile device.

RE: Hawkins' interview.
VampireLestat @ 6/20/2007 4:01:25 AM # Q
My God.. I just realized something people.

Foleo = 5 hr
Treo = 3 hr

If you have both with you out in the field, that is 8 hours combined computing time.
The fast manual/auto syncing between F<>T makes it realistic I could be sharing the batt time. I could do all the quick typing on the Foleo and if the batt is dying I can then skip the Treo for my mainly consulting/reading mode tasks.

RE: Hawkins' interview.
VampireLestat @ 6/20/2007 4:07:35 AM # Q
Woohoo! I haven't been this excited over a Palm product since back when I bought my first Palm pilot like 9 years ago.

Something has been triggered and I can feel it.


RE: Hawkins' interview.
VampireLestat @ 6/20/2007 4:08:45 AM # Q
--- That last phrase above is usually where Gekko starts thinking of a joke ---
Let's see what he comes up with. hehe

RE: Hawkins' interview.
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 6/20/2007 7:34:15 AM # Q
I haven't been this excited over a Palm product since back when I bought my first Palm pilot like 9 years ago.

Ahem. 9 years ago? Don't you mean 4 years ago? VampBuddy, there's no need to B.S. how long you've bee using Palms in an effort to gain credibility here.

RE: Hawkins' interview.
Gekko @ 6/20/2007 7:38:44 AM # Q

bipolar boy


RE: Hawkins' interview.
mikecane @ 6/23/2007 12:26:23 PM # Q
>>>bipolar boy

ROTFLMAO!!! Good one, Gek.

Reply to this comment

Why is Jeff Hawkins flying coach? Is he poor?

VampireLestat @ 6/20/2007 4:20:41 AM # Q
I kinda feel sad for him.
Does he do it on principle or to actually save money? jeez

I wouldn't be surprised if COLLIGAN flies first class.

RE: Why is Jeff Hawkins flying coach? Is he poor?
Gekko @ 6/20/2007 7:21:24 AM # Q

probably just for show.



RE: Why is Jeff Hawkins flying coach? Is he poor?
cervezas @ 6/20/2007 2:56:48 PM # Q
You're not going to learn much about how the masses are using their Treos, BlackBerries and laptop computers by sitting with the drunks and golfers in first class. The gate and the coach section of the aircraft are the two best places to keep tabs on Palm's market. When I was doing 4-8 flights a month last year it was like doing a Ph.D. program in mobile device usage. It doesn't take much to get most road warriors bragging or complaining about their mobile, comparing it to what they used to use, talking about how they use it, telling you what they wish it did or what device they'd rather have, and going on about how their IT department is afraid of X and won't let them use Y.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com/blog
RE: Why is Jeff Hawkins flying coach? Is he a masochist?
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 6/21/2007 12:07:16 AM # Q
The gate and the coach section of the aircraft are the two best places to keep tabs on Palm's market.

At this stage of the game, if Palm doesn't know EVERYTHING there is to know about how people use mobile devices then perhaps it's time that somebody (Steve Jobs?) gives Jeff Hawkins the tantō so that he can "do the right thing".

While no doubt the millions of dollars in automatic Palm stock sales that Hawkins gets every few months must make things easier to bear, it must be frustrating for him to see each of his ideas undermined by Palm's incompetence. Had the PalmOS PDAs, the Treo and the FOOLeo concepts been properly developed (e.g. by Apple or Dell), Hawkins could potentially have gone down in computer history as having had the same stature as Bill Gates and Steve Jobs.

TVoR

RE: Why is Jeff Hawkins flying coach? Is he poor?
mikecane @ 6/21/2007 11:00:22 AM # Q
>>>When I was doing 4-8 flights a month last year it was like doing a Ph.D. program in mobile device usage.

And what did you learn?

RE: Why is Jeff Hawkins flying coach? Is he poor?
cervezas @ 6/21/2007 2:08:39 PM # Q
And what did you learn?

Good question. Worth taking a few minutes to reflect about. Among other things:

* Almost everyone hates their carrier and a high percentage say they are going to switch at the next opportunity. Sprint is the worst these days. The carriers must be really desperate to find something--*anything*--that will reduce this churn, short of getting into a price war (which is what Sprint is resorting to).
* BlackBerry users complain about their devices more than Treo users. There are also more BlackBerry users that are positively passionate about their BBs, but both of these could be a reflection of the fact that there are a lot more BB users out there. Hard to conclude.
* People who use smart devices as the vendor intended (i.e. for data) complain more, but that doesn't mean they'd go back to using a cheaper phone.
* Treos are more often the business phone that users choose, BlackBerries are the business phone that IT departments choose
* Motorola Q users like how their phone looks, but they either have very low expectations or they live in worlds of private pain. Few IT departments issue the Q: it's mostly self-inflicted.
* Business people have love-hate relationships with mobile email
* American business people don't "get" text messaging, while their European counterparts don't "get" push email
* BlackBerry users play a lot more games than you'd think despite the fact that the platform sucks for games as compared to Palm and WM.
* A very large number of people don't bother synchronizing with their PC anymore
* A surprising number of people carry two mobile phones (especially BlackBerry owners)
* Very few people are doctrinaire about their mobile OS or phone vendor, but they hang on to old phones because they think it'll be a pain to switch and move their stuff over
* There are a lot of Treo 600s out there
* Most business users are not mobile phone enthusiasts. Even fewer are power-users. A fair number of smartphone users have one application that they've downloaded and care about--if I had to venture a rough guess, maybe 1 in 3.
* Business travelers *are* fanatical about reducing how much they have to lug around and the laptop is a major pain point. Many have tried to do trips with a smartphone and no laptop, and some do this pretty often.
* If you're going to carry a laptop, you'd darned well better be able to play games on it. On planes, at least, people use their laptops more for playing games than getting work done.
* Some people watch DVDs on their laptops, but more movie watchers carry dedicated devices these days.
* Same with music: most people who listen to music on a plane still use an iPod, not a phone, still less a laptop. Seems like a contradiction to the "carry less stuff" idea, but people seem to want (or at least *understand*) dedicated devices.
* I've never seen anyone pair a PDA with a phone. There are still a good many PDAs out there, though.

In general, watching people use devices in airports and airplanes has made me skeptical that "convergence" down to a single device is happening to a significant degree, despite the fact that people wish they could reduce the weight and bulk of the stuff they travel with.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: Why is Jeff Hawkins flying coach? Is he poor?
mikecane @ 6/23/2007 12:51:31 PM # Q
>>>* A very large number of people don't bother synchronizing with their PC anymore

Oh the pain they are in for!!

Then again, they might experience data loss as a sense of relief.

Paradoxical, but true.

RE: Why is Jeff Hawkins flying coach? Is he poor?
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 6/23/2007 3:09:30 PM # Q
>>>* A very large number of people don't bother synchronizing with their PC anymore

Beersy's actually right about this (a rare occurrence, these days).

Most power users do fine without HotSyncing. It's easy to load new apps via an SD card reader, and by using apps like Resco Backup and BackupMan, hotsyncing can easily become redundant - unless users NEED to update desktop apps with their PDA data via the hotsync conduits.

TVoR

Reply to this comment

FOOLeo can't do YouTube... but iPhone will. W T F!!!

The_Voice_of_Reason @ 6/20/2007 9:11:06 AM # Q
http://www.apple.com/pr/library/2007/06/20youtube.html

Way to go, Hawkins. Last time I checked, multimedia was one of the main things people use their laptops for...

W T F was Hawkins thinking trumpeting a crippled laptop as something innovative? Hawkins must feel embarassed as he tries to hype this CRAPTOP.

Hawkins' credibility will keep sinking online until the FOOLeo starts syncing online.

RE: FOOLeo can't do YouTube... but iPhone will. W T F!!!
SeldomVisitor @ 6/20/2007 9:17:20 AM # Q
Yeah, Apple appears to be doing the Marketing Shuffle as they keep on introducing new built-in features of their "featureless" iPhone just a couple weeks prior to intro.

RE: FOOLeo can't do YouTube... but iPhone will. W T F!!!
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 6/20/2007 10:14:59 AM # Q
Yeah, Apple appears to be doing the Marketing Shuffle as they keep on introducing new built-in features of their "featureless" iPhone just a couple weeks prior to intro.

First the iPhone battery life announcement and now this... His Steveness (Jobs) is the Undisputed Master of Media Manipulation (UMMM)

And I predict Palm will be amateurishly trying to do the same, except since they weren't able to get the software they wanted for the FOOLeo concept done in time they'll mainly have to stick to introducing 3rd party add-on applictions for their "applicationless" CRAPTOP:

http://www.palminfocenter.com/comments/9005/#133972

Is the FOOLeo shipping with ANY software??? W T F???
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 6/19/2007 11:03:52 AM #

So once again Palm is hoping developers will do their work for them and make all of the software the device needs. Well guess what: no one is going to be dumb enough to spend $500 on a FOOLeo and then go out and spend HUNDREDS MORE buying software Palm should have bundled for free:

PIM apps
Financial app
VNC app
FTP app
File manager
Zip utility
Backup utility
Photo viewer/editor
Database app
Video player
MP3 player
Word-compatible document editor*
Excel-compatible spreadsheet editor*

etc., etc


TVoR

* Does the included FOOLeo software edit + save MS Office applications in their native format?


RE: FOOLeo can't do YouTube... but iPhone will. W T F!!!
bcombee @ 6/20/2007 10:50:06 AM # Q
Yes, the bundled versions of Documents to Go both create and edit Word, Excel, and Powerpoint files in their native format. You can open one from an email attachment or just create a new one that's stored in the internal flash storage or on external media.

As for other apps -- look at the Application Launcher picture at http://www.palminfocenter.com/news/9439/palm-foleo-hands-on-gallery/. You'll see that File Manager and Photo Viewer are already included on the device.

RE: FOOLeo can't do YouTube... but iPhone will. W T F!!!
SeldomVisitor @ 6/20/2007 11:07:09 AM # Q
Cool, and they auto-sync, too!

RE: FOOLeo can't do YouTube... but iPhone will. W T F!!!
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 6/20/2007 11:25:42 AM # Q
Yes, the bundled versions of Documents to Go both create and edit Word, Excel, and Powerpoint files in their native format. You can open one from an email attachment or just create a new one that's stored in the internal flash storage or on external media.

As for other apps -- look at the Application Launcher picture at http://www.palminfocenter.com/news/9439/palm-foleo-hands-on-gallery/. You'll see that File Manager and Photo Viewer are already included on the device.

Thanks for the update, Ben. But what other apps are included?

You guys really need to rethink how the FOOLeo is being positioned and also need to actually SHOW people the device in action to demonstrate its (potential) practical advantages.

TVoR


RE: FOOLeo can't do YouTube... but iPhone will. W T F!!!
numlock @ 6/20/2007 12:08:30 PM # Q
The Voice's constant Foleo bashing is really quite suspicious. What's fueling that hatred there, or is it just pure lunacy?

I mean why don't you shut up about how bad it is until it actually ships or you've at least used one before. You really seem to have some kind of sinister agenda the way you present yourself around here.

RE: FOOLeo can't do YouTube... but iPhone will. W T F!!!
SeldomVisitor @ 6/20/2007 12:33:00 PM # Q
But...but...but...but...it really IS as bad as presented here!

RE: FOOLeo can't do YouTube... but iPhone will. W T F!!!
cervezas @ 6/20/2007 12:42:06 PM # Q
need to actually SHOW people the device in action

Amen to that.

Video #1:
Two people sitting down to a meeting where someone else is starting to speak. One starts to power up a Windows laptop while the other flips open her Foleo and starts taking down a note immediately. The Foleo user fires off an email to her assistant. As she starts to make a point in the meeting her Treo tells her she has a response. She hits the sync button and opens the attached document while she is speaking, quoting some information from the document to the meeting attendees. Then she turns the Foleo around and shows everyone a colorful PowerPoint graph that illustrates her point. The video ends with the Windows boot-up jingle and a sheepish look on the face of the laptop's owner.

Video #2:
Two business people are seated on a plane waiting for their flight to pull away from the gate. They each get notification of an incoming email on their mobile--one on his BlackBerry, the other on his Treo. Cut to a split screen showing the two devices and the open emails, which come from two different senders but say the same thing: "Zamco is ready to pick the vendor. The bid has to go out NOW!" The BlackBerry stands up to pull a heavy laptop bag from the overhead compartment, which swings down and whacks an attractive woman seated across the aisle from him. The Treo user slips his Foleo out of a small bag under his seat and it comes to life as he opens it on his tray table. He opens a Word document and an Excel spreadsheet, changes a date on one each, and sends them both as email attachments to the prospective client. The announcement comes over the PA that all electronic devices need to be turned off and stowed, which the Foleo owner accomplishes by just snapping his Foleo shut and slipping it back in his bag. The guy with the chunky laptop looks apologetically up at a surly flight attendant and says "ok, I'm turning it off." The screen still shows the Windows XP logo when he closes the lid. As he grunts to stow the bag back in the overhead bin the Windows boot-up jingle plays from inside the bag. The flight attendant and the woman seated across the aisle both give him another dirty look. The Foleo owner smiles and stretches out a hand as his competitor sits back down and buckles up.

Hopefully there are some good ad spots in the works, but since Palm has pre-announced, I think they need stuff like this on Palm.com (and YouTube) now, not at launch time.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: FOOLeo can't do YouTube... but iPhone will. W T F!!!
Gekko @ 6/20/2007 2:25:11 PM # Q

Moss was absolutely incredulous!!! Funny stuff!!!

--

[Foleo Won't do flash video, including YouTube.]

Mossberg: "Let me get this straight. It won't do the hottest thing on the Web?"

Hawkins: "Let me be clear: it will do it, but not well."

Mossberg: "When?"

Hawkins: "UHHH...In the future."

Hawkins: "If I could do it again, I'd put a faster processor in here."

Mossberg: "There are laptops that are $499, there are laptops that are 10-inchers, why this?"

Hawkins: "Those little ones aren't the cheap ones. We're going after the one-button access to the experience. This is a Linux machine with long battery life, that people will write apps for. Foleo is simple and fun."



RE: FOOLeo can't do YouTube... but iPhone will. W T F!!!
SeldomVisitor @ 6/20/2007 2:30:23 PM # Q
Wait til his review of it...think there will be a review of it?

Probably not for a couple years...when it's ready to be reviewed...


RE: FOOLeo can't do YouTube... but iPhone will. W T F!!!
Gekko @ 6/20/2007 2:49:51 PM # Q

Beersie - Have you no shame? only a true Palm apologist like yourself could come up with those outright misleading ads.

Windows boot up time??? ever hear of sleep mode??? my notebook awakes in about 2 seconds and is small/light enough to tuck in a small carry on bag.

Docs To Go??? Anyone who would risk editing and then sending an Office doc formal important business proposal on Docs To Go deserves to have the document formats and formulas all f***ed up and thus lose the deal due to mess it creates.

And what about SYNC-TIME for the Fooleo to Sync with the Treo??? This would surely take some time depending on email, docs, PIM (if it can do it), load. What if it's still syncing and the flight attendant asks you to shut down. What will the Fooleo do when you have to close the lid mid-sync????? Answer: you'll be the Fool.

No thanks, I'd rather have a REAL laptop with a wireless cellular card where i can have REAL Office Docs editing/creation, INSTANT and SINGULAR docs/PIM/etc to email send/receive (no multiple steps/synching required), not to mention all of the other millions of things that a real laptop can do vs. the fooleo.

You can fool the customer ONCE but NOT TWICE.



RE: FOOLeo can't do YouTube... but iPhone will. W T F!!!
SeldomVisitor @ 6/20/2007 2:55:30 PM # Q
> ...what about SYNC-TIME for the Fooleo to Sync with the Treo???
> This would surely take some time depending on email, docs, PIM
> (if it can do it), load. What if it's still syncing and the flight
> attendant asks you to shut down. What will the Fooleo do when you
> have to close the lid mid-sync????? Answer: you'll be the Fool...

You may want to forward that test case to His Mossberg Hisself for when he DOES do a review - if ever:

-- walt@allthingsd.com

Yeah, that's probably an assistant but at least ya MIGHT be able to get past it to The Man.

RE: FOOLeo can't do YouTube... but iPhone will. W T F!!!
mikecane @ 6/20/2007 4:36:11 PM # Q
RE: FOOLeo can't do YouTube... but iPhone will. W T F!!!
mikecane @ 6/20/2007 4:38:02 PM # Q
>>>The Voice's constant Foleo bashing is really quite suspicious. What's fueling that hatred there, or is it just pure lunacy?

>>>I mean why don't you shut up about how bad it is until it actually ships or you've at least used one before. You really seem to have some kind of sinister agenda the way you present yourself around here.

Oh look. PIC has a brand-new reader.

ROTFLMAO.

RE: FOOLeo can't do YouTube... but iPhone will. W T F!!!
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 6/20/2007 6:37:51 PM # Q
>>>need to actually SHOW people the device in action

Amen to that.

Video #1:
[SNIP]

Video #2:
[SNIP]

Beersy, I almost sprayed my lunch over my monitor laughing at your bogus ad storylines. Are you SURE you have never worked on Madison Avenue? Don't give up the day job (you do have one, don't you?). Too bad these situations you highlight are completely B.S. - anyone using a Real Windows® laptop would just have it in suspend mode and capable of awakening within a few seconds. And do we know with any certainty how fast the syncing process occurs with the FOOLeo? If it's anything like the IR syncing with (one of my favorites) RecoX, prepare to wait... wait... wait while the flight attendant glares at you and then the (Palm) Pilot finally comes back and biotchslaps you (even more) senseless!

Hopefully there are some good ad spots in the works, but since Palm has pre-announced, I think they need stuff like this on Palm.com (and YouTube) now, not at launch time.

Looks like they spent more time on their FOOLeo website ads than they did on the Treo 700p bugfixes...

TVoR

RE: FOOLeo can't do YouTube... but iPhone will. W T F!!!
cervezas @ 6/20/2007 8:11:52 PM # Q
Windows doesn't have a "suspend" mode, Voice. It has "stand-by" and "hibernate." Standby keeps the volatile memory powered up like a pre-2003 PDA, only with the amount of memory a Windows laptop needs to run properly these days stand-by consumes a fair amount of juice. I doubt very many travelers put their laptop in stand-by before they leave for the airport since they're usually concerned about having enough power to get them through their travel day. And even if they do, most have their power-management settings so that after no more than an hour in stand-by the laptop goes into hibernate. Hibernate (a.k.a. "sleep", Gekko) saves everything in RAM onto the hard drive and completely powers down the machine, but then boot-up is almost as slow as a cold boot.

People who use laptops to travel (i.e. the Foleo's target market) know these things.

Glad you liked my ad spots, though. They maybe unrealistic in some respects, but when did you ever see a TV ad for a technology product that wasn't? The point is not to faithfully record a laboratory bench test, it's to show what Foleo is good for. And I totally agree with you that Palm has not done a very good job of this to date.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: FOOLeo can't do YouTube... but iPhone will. W T F!!!
freakout @ 6/20/2007 9:09:12 PM # Q
First the iPhone battery life announcement

RE: that, who else still finds their estimate incredibly optimistic? Palm say 300 hours standby time with the Treo 680, and we all know how far from the truth that is. iPhone is very thin, has a bigger screen, lots of fancy sensors and wifi, and yet they claim 250 hours standby?

Ah. But wait. You'll have to turn some of that fancy technology off if you want to reach those estimates. If you check out Apple's testing methodology, you'll note that:

1) The wifi snooper is always turned off (and the auto-switching between wifi and cellular was one of the most appealing things about it).
2) In the internet tests, the Auto-Brightness sensor was deactivated.
3) Call Forwarding was turned on in every test.

And the bugger isn't removable either. Got a dud? No easy replacements for you...

Tim
I apologise for any and all emoticons that appear in my posts. You may shoot them on sight.
Treo 270 ---> Treo 650 ---> Crimson Treo 680

RE: FOOLeo can't do YouTube... but iPhone will. W T F!!!
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 6/20/2007 9:43:34 PM # Q
Windows doesn't have a "suspend" mode, Voice. It has "stand-by" and "hibernate." Standby keeps the volatile memory powered up like a pre-2003 PDA, only with the amount of memory a Windows laptop needs to run properly these days stand-by consumes a fair amount of juice. I doubt very many travelers put their laptop in stand-by before they leave for the airport since they're usually concerned about having enough power to get them through their travel day. And even if they do, most have their power-management settings so that after no more than an hour in stand-by the laptop goes into hibernate. Hibernate (a.k.a. "sleep", Gekko) saves everything in RAM onto the hard drive and completely powers down the machine, but then boot-up is almost as slow as a cold boot.

The terminology for the different "resting states" varies, Beersy. Suspend = Standby:

V=http://www-307.ibm.com/pc/support/site.wss/document.do?lndocid=MIGR-50944#Pows

http://www-307.ibm.com/pc/support/site.wss/document.do?lndocid=MIGR-50944

http://www-307.ibm.com/pc/support/site.wss/MIGR-54305.html

RE: FOOLeo can't do YouTube... but iPhone will. W T F!!!
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 6/20/2007 9:47:43 PM # Q
>>>First the iPhone battery life announcement

RE: that, who else still finds their estimate incredibly optimistic? Palm say 300 hours standby time with the Treo 680, and we all know how far from the truth that is. iPhone is very thin, has a bigger screen, lots of fancy sensors and wifi, and yet they claim 250 hours standby?

Ah. But wait. You'll have to turn some of that fancy technology off if you want to reach those estimates. If you check out Apple's testing methodology, you'll note that:

1) The wifi snooper is always turned off (and the auto-switching between wifi and cellular was one of the most appealing things about it).
2) In the internet tests, the Auto-Brightness sensor was deactivated.
3) Call Forwarding was turned on in every test.

And the bugger isn't removable either. Got a dud? No easy replacements for you...

Apparently the iElectrons in the iBattery are iStronger. Do you DARE doubt His Steveness? Infidel! You will pay for your treachery.

TVoR


RE: FOOLeo can't do YouTube... but iPhone will. W T F!!!
cervezas @ 6/20/2007 10:19:58 PM # Q
The terminology for the different "resting states" varies, Beersy. Suspend = Standby

Good, so we're agreed on everything I said but the first sentence. Glad we're clear on which of us was full of BS. ;)


David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: FOOLeo can't do YouTube... but iPhone will. W T F!!!
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 6/21/2007 12:18:18 AM # Q
Good, so we're agreed on everything I said but the first sentence. Glad we're clear on which of us was full of BS. ;)

If that's what you need to believe in order to keep on living, who am I to destroy your world?


TVoR

P.S. I accept your apology. Baby steps, Beersy. Baby steps. Well done. Tomorrow's lesson: "How to stop being sniveling Palm Apologist in five easy steps". can please make sure you read Professor Kirvin's chapter prior to the lesson.

RE: FOOLeo can't do YouTube... but iPhone will. W T F!!!
freakout @ 6/21/2007 4:47:11 AM # Q
TVoR:
You guys really need to rethink how the FOOLeo is being positioned and also need to actually SHOW people the device in action to demonstrate its (potential) practical advantages.

Y'know, I've been trying to write an editorial for PIC on the Foleo ever since it was announced. The problem is that I have such mixed feelings on it, I can't actually seem to make any real points and it's just incoherent rambling. There are so many "buts": Foleo's form factor is great compared to the bulk of notebooks in its price range, but it doesn't let you do even half as much; Foleo has given us a new mobile operating system with huge potential, but Palm are once again leaving all the good stuff to the third-party devs; Foleo is open to those same third party devs, but there's no guarantee that they will flock to it the way they did to Palm's PDAs.

I'm trying hard to see Foleo's good points, but Palm haven't been helping. TVoR is right on the money - it needs to be marketed a helluva lot better, and it needs a better software package.

Apparently the iElectrons in the iBattery are iStronger. Do you DARE doubt His Steveness? Infidel! You will pay for your treachery.

Obligatory Futurama quote:
Melllvar: (thundering) I am not an effect! You doubt my power?!

Bender: (dismissive) I do.

Melllvar electrocutes Welshy.

Tim
I apologise for any and all emoticons that appear in my posts. You may shoot them on sight.
Treo 270 ---> Treo 650 ---> Crimson Treo 680

RE: FOOLeo can't do YouTube... but iPhone will. W T F!!!
mikecane @ 6/21/2007 7:26:05 AM # Q
>>>If that's what you need to believe in order to keep on living, who am I to destroy your world?

OMG!!! ROTFHAMI!!!!

Reply to this comment

Nice Dell Laptop for $499 - One Day Only

Gekko @ 6/20/2007 6:24:41 PM # Q

Dell Inspiron 1501
AMD Turion™ 64 X2 Dual-Core Mobile Technology TL-50
1GB DDR2 SDRAM at 533MHz, 2 Dimm
Size: 60GB1 SATA Hard Drive (5400RPM)
Your choice of Genuine Windows VistaTM Home Premium or Genuine Windows® XP Home
1 Yr Ltd Warranty, 1 Yr Mail-in Service, and 1 Yr Tech Support
$499 [After $260 Instant Savings.]
Expires 06/20/07.

http://www.dell.com/content/topics/segtopic.aspx/odg/hip_cnn?c=us&cs=04&l=en&s=bsd


or buy the fooleo???

RE: Nice Dell Laptop for $499 - One Day Only
cervezas @ 6/20/2007 9:36:23 PM # Q
Sure, but:

Add $50 to get the battery that gives you 5 hrs of use
Add $219 for a wireless broadband card, since the carrier won't let you tether it to your phone
Add $80/mo to your wireless plan so you can use the broadband card ($960/yr)

Then:
Add 3.8 lbs (vs. Foleo)
Add another .5 lbs for the A/C adapter (Foleo's is tiny, like your Treo's)

And the Dell still doesn't come with MS Office. If you want to edit office docs like you said you did you better add another $279 (a 37% savings! Woo hoo!)

So now your "cheap" Dell laptop is $1048 up front and $80/mo so you can do the same wireless email and office document editing that you can with a Foleo, for one-third the weight.

No doubt a lot of folks really need a laptop. But it's not at all obvious to me that these "cheap" laptops are either as cheap or as functional for many others as a Foleo.



David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com/blog

Debunking Beersy. A fulltime job?
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 6/20/2007 9:59:41 PM # Q
Sure, but:

Add $50 to get the battery that gives you 5 hrs of use
Add $219 for a wireless broadband card, since the carrier won't let you tether it to your phone
Add $80/mo to your wireless plan so you can use the broadband card ($960/yr)

Then:
Add 3.8 lbs (vs. Foleo)
Add another .5 lbs for the A/C adapter (Foleo's is tiny, like your Treo's)

And the Dell still doesn't come with MS Office. If you want to edit office docs like you said you did you better add another $279 (a 37% savings! Woo hoo!)

So now your "cheap" Dell laptop is $1048 up front and $80/mo so you can do the same wireless email and office document editing that you can with a Foleo, for one-third the weight.

No doubt a lot of folks really need a laptop. But it's not at all obvious to me that these "cheap" laptops are either as cheap or as functional for many others as a Foleo.

- How about first we wait to see if the FOOLeo REALLY has 5 hour battery life.
- Then get a $30/month Sprint SERO plan for 500 anytime minutes, unlimited nights + weekends, free long distance, free roaming onto Verizon and FREE "UNLIMITED" EVDO ACCESS. If you needed cellphone service anyway then EVDO is basically "free".
- Add $125/3 = $42 for a shared "student" license of Microsoft Office (comes with 3 licenses).
- Avoid the extra $200 or so in software the FOOLeo will likely need to make it (barely) functional
- Avoid headaches of not having any software to use.

What are the totals now, Beersy?

Try again, Bubba.

TVoR

RE: Nice Dell Laptop for $499 - One Day Only
cervezas @ 6/20/2007 10:42:19 PM # Q
If you needed cellphone service anyway then EVDO is basically "free".

Oh really? So Sprint is now fine with you tethering your laptop to your cell so you can stream all your YouTube? When did this happen? 40 minutes ago inside your brain? Or did you mean that I should buy the wireless card for the laptop and activate it with Sprint, which requires an additional plan? Like I described above?

Either way your solution still costs hundreds of dollars more and weighs three times as much. Am I missing something? Do you really think *everyone* is happy to pay this much and lug this much around just so they can run iTunes or watch DVDs? Or are you just shoveling crap that even you don't believe because you're now backed into a corner by some simple facts?

I'm guessing the latter because I don't think you're that dumb.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: Nice Dell Laptop for $499 - One Day Only
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 6/21/2007 1:12:48 AM # Q
Oh really? So Sprint is now fine with you tethering your laptop to your cell so you can stream all your YouTube? When did this happen? 40 minutes ago inside your brain? Or did you mean that I should buy the wireless card for the laptop and activate it with Sprint, which requires an additional plan? Like I described above?

Either way your solution still costs hundreds of dollars more and weighs three times as much. Am I missing something? Do you really think *everyone* is happy to pay this much and lug this much around just so they can run iTunes or watch DVDs? Or are you just shoveling crap that even you don't believe because you're now backed into a corner by some simple facts?

I'm guessing the latter because I don't think you're that dumb.

Hmmmm... I had over 500 MB in data usage on Saturday and the Sprint Men In Black never showed up. Go figure. And in case you didn't know, the carriers all cover their sorry a$$es with a lot of fine print in their data contracts. Even if you have signed up for a expensive "unlimited" monthly data package, it's the CARRIERS that get to decide if your usage pattern falls within what's acceptable to their Terms Of Service. I had a Sprint EVDO card and dumped it once I realized what a ripoff the data charges were compared to the SERO plan. I currently use my Treo 700p and the brilliant PdaNet for my laptop's Internet connection.

The sad fact of the matter is that the FOOLeo is an overpriced, poorly-speced microlaptop with limited software + a proprietary OS, and it comes from a company with zero history in selling/supporting such devices. Anyway you slice it, buying a FOOLeo is a tremendous leap of faith. Even you should be able to understand that casual users will get a much bigger bang for their buck by shopping for a Real Windows® laptop. Other than technophiles that enjoy playing with new classes of hardware, there aren't many other types of user that are better served buying a FOOLeo instead of a Real Windows® device.

It'll be interesting to find out what the REAL cost of ownership is with a FOOLeo, including the price for third-party applications that Palm - for one reason or another - chose not to include. Users looking at the software bundle that comes with an iPhone and comparing it to the apparently meager offerings seen on the FOOLeo are not going to be impressed.

Numerous other questions about the FOOLeo need to be raised, including:

- How good is the browsing experience when using the cell phone as modem?
- How quickly does syncing occur and how reliable is the process?
- Will each new application require a custom syncing conduit, or is there any standardized method through which all app data is transmitted?
- Is syncing user-initiated, does it occur in the background or is it configurable?
- Can syncing be turned on and off on an app by app basis?
- Can the FOOLeo's apparent multimedia limitations eventually be solved by software or will they require the classic "Treo 700p -> Treo 755p-style bug fix" (i.e. buy a new device in order to fix the old device's bugs)?
- Can the FOOLeo sync with online databases?
- How difficult is it to code apps for the FOOLeo?
- Can the FOOLeo support wireless streaming of MP3 or video?
- How many phones will the FOOLeo support when it is initially released? Six months later?
- etc, etc.

TVoR's crystal ball is predicting a lot of weeping and gnashing of teeth in the Hawkins household...

TVoR

RE: Nice Dell Laptop for $499 - One Day Only
SeldomVisitor @ 6/21/2007 6:17:45 AM # Q
> ...including the price for third-party applications that
> Palm - for one reason or another - chose not to include...

It makes absolute perfect sense to me - ALL the software has to be rewritten to take advantage of "The Fooleo Concept". PALM needs to recover that cost.

And, for whatever reason, it looks like PALM got rid of some significant chunk of their in-house development staff (otherwise they would not have announced it).

The Extra Cost Gotcha will show up in reviews, you can bet on that - it would be nice if Mossberg actually reviews this, but does anyone remember him actually reviewing something where he found no redeeming value?

RE: Nice Dell Laptop for $499 - One Day Only
cervezas @ 6/21/2007 10:02:22 AM # Q
the carriers all cover their sorry a$$es with a lot of fine print in their data contracts. Even if you have signed up for a expensive "unlimited" monthly data package, it's the CARRIERS that get to decide if your usage pattern falls within what's acceptable to their Terms Of Service.

That's exactly my point, thank you. Tethering your laptop is considered by Sprint to be against the TOS. You never know when you might be shut down because it's entirely at the discretion of the carrier. By shut down I mean drop you as a customer and send you a big bill.

Anyway, you're slipping, Voice. Since your idea is to make the laptop usage cheaper by trying to cheat Sprint for the wireless data, why not just steal a nice laptop and get the hardware and software for free? If you steal one from a Sprint employee you can get their email address and use it to apply for the SERO plan (which requires a referral by a Sprint employee). That would *really* have shown me up: how can Palm ever sell a Foleo when the whole country knows it can simply steal fully loaded laptops from hapless Sprint employees?

All your questions are great, by the way. I agree that the answers to questions like these could make or break the product. No way of knowing today, but hopefully we will soon. But we do know one thing: even if everyone cheats as you suggested, the "$500" laptop from Dell still costs $700 if you want it to run more than two hours or to edit Office documents. And it still weighs three times as much as the Foleo. The fact that people pay $1500 and up to get a laptop that is no more capable than the $500 Dell but is small and light like the Foleo should tell you something about the value that road warriors put on size and weight.

Here are some other questions I have about the Foleo:
-What happens if you close the lid during a sync? or walk out of range with the phone? Does it roll back an incomplete sync so you don't have corrupted data?
-Can you take a call while a sync is in progress?
-Can you use a Bluetooth headset while the phone and Foleo are paired?
-If both the headset and the Foleo are trying to pair to the Foleo, what happens?
-Is there an option to pair the Foleo with the smartphone by cable?
-When will Google add Opera support for Gears so you can run web applications in off-line mode?


David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: Nice Dell Laptop for $499 - One Day Only
SeldomVisitor @ 6/21/2007 10:34:07 AM # Q
> ...even if everyone cheats as you suggested, the "$500" laptop
> from Dell still costs $700 if you want it to run more than two
> hours or to edit Office documents....

Perhaps.

But the $300 laptop from Asus strangely remains at $300 if you want a lighter, longer-lasting, more featured device than the Fooleo.

How much does the Fooleo cost again?

No no no!

WITH software!

RE: Nice Dell Laptop for $499 - One Day Only
cervezas @ 6/21/2007 12:27:58 PM # Q
Exactly. Devices more like the Asus are a bigger competitive problem for Palm than anything that Dell has to offer. I say "like" the Asus because the Asus itself looks like it makes some critical design blunders, but how long before Nokia or Samsung start selling small/light solid state Linux laptops with business features that boot up in 15 seconds? Even if they don't have the interesting phone sync feature, that's going to make things tougher for the Foleo.

The reasons the Asus itself is not serious competition:
* It doesn't sync with your phone, so your email, contacts and other data can only be synchronized by hand
* It doesn't do MS Office email attachments (you have to run a converter to view Office docs in OpenOffice)
* No WWAN connectivity, so no Internet unless there's WiFi or Ethernet around
* No Bluetooth either, so you can't even occasionally try tethering to your phone and hoping you fly under your carrier's radar
* It has a shrunk-down keyboard (an inch narrower than the Foleo) that's uncomfortable to use and makes you look like you're hunched over a toy if you're at a conference table
* It has a tiny 7" screen
* It only claims 3 hrs of battery life

In short, it's a geek toy with a geek toy price, not a business device.

All stuff that a more formidable competitor than Asus could fix pretty easily. Palm should be concerned. IMO, Palm doesn't need to add a lot more features to the Foleo (PIM apps for version 1.0, better video support for 2.0) but it had better nail the synchronization piece (for end users and 3rd party developers) and it sure as heck better get its marketing house in order.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: Nice Dell Laptop for $499 - One Day Only
palmato @ 6/21/2007 3:39:35 PM # Q
Just want to point out the foleo is 600 usd, that's the price Palm's marketing has put on the device. Plus the cost of the additional software. It way well go beyond 700$.

BTW the Dell Inspiron 1051 is still available at 499 (+ shipping), with wifi. OpenOffice may not be perfect but is certainly a better choice than docs2go.

Question: does anyone think the foleo will be quietly dropped and never see the light of of day?


--------------------------
Hey Admin: Why do we have to keep two profiles?

RE: Nice Dell Laptop for $499 - One Day Only
cervezas @ 6/21/2007 5:53:57 PM # Q
Just want to point out the foleo is 600 usd, that's the price Palm's marketing has put on the device. Plus the cost of the additional software. It way well go beyond 700$.

Just want to point out the Inspiron 1501 is 600 usd, that's the price Dell's marketing has put on the device. Plus the cost of the additional software and 5 hr battery. It way well most definitely will go beyond 700$ $869.

What would be more interesting would be to look at Windows XP laptops that weigh under 2.5lbs.

Lenovo X60: starts around $1200 without MS Office ($279 if you want Office and Outlook)
Sony Vaio TX series: start around $2010 without MS Office
Fujitsu Lifebook Q2210: $3099 and still no MS Office included

I wonder why *all* of these ultraportables are so much more expensive than a 6.5 lb Dell? Any thoughts on that?

No one--certainly not Palm and certainly not I--claims that a Windows laptop isn't loaded with features not found on the Foleo. If you think you need these features every time you travel around the country or the campus, Hawkins is explicitly saying that you're not a customer for the Foleo. Can we take that straw man off the table?

Since the premium people will pay for "small and light" seems to be at least 300%, a device that's small and light but doesn't make you pay that premium leaves an awful lot of C-notes in your wallet for buying software, etc. Couple that with the instant-on advantage, the built-in phone sync, the fact that you don't need a second wireless account to do WWAN wireless email with it (as you would with all the laptops listed above).... Sorry, but I find Palm's product strategy with the Foleo to be quite sound.

I'm more worried about the marketing and the execution. But until we get to the launch I'm going to leave the speculation to the rest of you and give Palm the benefit of the doubt.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: Nice Dell Laptop for $499 - One Day Only
twrock @ 6/21/2007 7:51:22 PM # Q
Can we take that straw man off the table?

Thank you. (said with an exasperated, but relieved tone of voice)

Finding the least expensive, flavor of the day Dell laptop (or whatever company) to compare the Foleo to is really not very meaningful.

Some laptops are referred to as "desktop replacements" because they include everything and the kitchen sink. I bought my first laptop using the "desktop" paradigm because it was the only thing I knew. I absolutely hated the weight of the monster, nigh near broke my collar bone just carrying it somewhere. Next laptop was half the weight and even a smaller screen. My third was the smallest and lightest yet. And I'm still thinking I want something even lighter and simpler, something that does less, not more. Do I still want my laptop? Of course, at least for now, but this "Foleo concept" is something different (and even Hawkins is telling you that directly).

It is a waste of time to show me the cheapest Dell and say "buy this instead" or "this is a better deal". That only shows you haven't yet truly considered the paradigm shift that Palm is trying to make. (And I thought I was the old dog; at least I'm _trying_ to get my head wrapped around the concept.) This is a different way of looking at mobile computing.

Can Palm make it work? Can the Foleo deliver? I don't know. All any of us are doing at this point is wondering out loud (well, that, and clearly there are those among us who for whatever strange psychological reason hang out on this board with the sole purpose of bashing Palm at every conceivable, and even inconceivable, opportunity; maybe Ryan can open a new forum category called "Palm Stalkers Anonymous" to give these people some place to get help). But comparing "Dell's cheapest laptop of the day" to the "Foleo" (which includes the paradigm shift behind it) is not really useful.


Thinking about Vista? Think again: http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/pubs/vista_cost.txt
Want an alternative? Try this: http://www.ubuntu.com/ or http://www.mepis.org/

RE: Nice Dell Laptop for $499 - One Day Only
craigdts @ 6/21/2007 10:23:15 PM # Q

" the premium people will pay for "small and light" seems to be at least 300%, a device that's small and light but doesn't make you pay that premium leaves an awful lot of C-notes in your wallet for buying software, etc."

Not as many C-notes as you think . . . your math needs to includes Palm's assumption that you purchase a Treo as well.

"Lenovo X60: starts around $1200 without MS Office ($279 if you want Office and Outlook)
Sony Vaio TX series: start around $2010 without MS Office
Fujitsu Lifebook Q2210: $3099 and still no MS Office included"

Treo + Foleo = about $1200



RE: Nice Dell Laptop for $499 - One Day Only
cervezas @ 6/21/2007 10:55:39 PM # Q
Then you should compare apples with apples and add the smartphone's price to the laptops, too, right? Can't very well place a call, send a text or get your email in your pocket with just a laptop, can you?

While the Foleo looks like an attractive free-standing computer to some people (my writerly wife in particular) I do think it's fair to say that Palm is marketing it initially to people who already own a smartphone.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: Nice Dell Laptop for $499 - One Day Only
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 6/21/2007 11:36:41 PM # Q
>>>Just want to point out the foleo is 600 usd, that's the price Palm's marketing has put on the device. Plus the cost of the additional software. It way well go beyond 700$.

Just want to point out the Inspiron 1501 is 600 usd, that's the price Dell's marketing has put on the device. Plus the cost of the additional software and 5 hr battery. It way well most definitely will go beyond 700$ $869.

The point is not so much that the FOOLeo is comparable to the Dell, but rather that the FOOLeo seems to offer rather poor value for the money.

What would be more interesting would be to look at Windows XP laptops that weigh under 2.5lbs.

Lenovo X60: starts around $1200 without MS Office ($279 if you want Office and Outlook)
Sony Vaio TX series: start around $2010 without MS Office
Fujitsu Lifebook Q2210: $3099 and still no MS Office included

I would add the Fujitsu P1610 to that list (starts at $1599 http://store.shopfujitsu.com/fpc/Ecommerce/buildseriesbean.do?series=P1610). And you can also add a bunch of UMPC, as well as all the cheap microlaptops that will be coming out over the next few months. Any way you slice it, the FOOLeo is going to feel intense pressure from all sides of the market. I find it difficult to believe that a new $600 laptop from an inexperienced vendor, running a new proprietary OS, with a very limited number of applications available will have much of a chance to succeed, even if Palm tries to market the device by hitching a ride on the coattails of the Treo franchise. Hawkins decision to introduce the FOOLeo as a "Treo companion" underscores the lack of confidence that Palm has in the FOOLeo's ability to compete with similarly-priced or similarly-sized devices.

I wonder why *all* of these ultraportables are so much more expensive than a 6.5 lb Dell? Any thoughts on that?

Those of us who travel know that it's uncomfortable having to lug around laptops that weight anything much over 3 pounds. Desktop replacement laptops are simply unacceptable for traveling. Laptop manufacturers understand that small size/weight are one of the few remaining features that they can gouge consumers on, so they are continuing to milk this for as long as they can. As someone who has given up on desktops and uses an IBM X40 as their primary computing device, I feel that a 10 - 12 inch screen is the optimal compromise between portability, usability and viewability and I think most manufacturers will eventually standardize on this size for their "serious" ultraportable devices. "Microlaptops" (with screen sizes ranging from 4 - 8 inches) will likely remain niche devices, but may become popular as prices drop below $300. At that price point, these devices can essentially replace PDAs, allowing users to dump their smartphones in favor of tiny stylephones. On the other hand, a clamshell form factor smartphone the size of an iPhone would definitely complement the setups favored by a wide spectrum of users. It will be interesting to see if Apple sees a market for a clamshell device.

In the end, it seems likely that the market will be fragmented among devices ranging from 4 inch Linux and Real Windows® microlaptops and dumbphones to high end smartphones and desktop replacement laptops, with every conceivable permutation and combination mixed in for good measure.

No one--certainly not Palm and certainly not I--claims that a Windows laptop isn't loaded with features not found on the Foleo. If you think you need these features every time you travel around the country or the campus, Hawkins is explicitly saying that you're not a customer for the Foleo. Can we take that straw man off the table?

That's fair enough, Beersy, but the question becomes "Who IS the target market for the FOOLeo?" And why would they not choose a more functional or cheaper or smaller alternative? Right now, the ONLY theoretical advantage that the FOOLeo seems to have would be ease of syncing. And that's assuming that Palm has actually figured out how to do this properly. Furthermore, unfortunately for Palm, the competition likely will be able to roll out similar syncing abilities on other platforms with relatively minimal effort, as long as the focus remains the KISS principle.

Since the premium people will pay for "small and light" seems to be at least 300%, a device that's small and light but doesn't make you pay that premium leaves an awful lot of C-notes in your wallet for buying software, etc. Couple that with the instant-on advantage, the built-in phone sync, the fact that you don't need a second wireless account to do WWAN wireless email with it (as you would with all the laptops listed above).... Sorry, but I find Palm's product strategy with the Foleo to be quite sound.

Correction: The premium people will pay for "small and light [AND RUNNING REAL WINDOWS®]" seems to be 200 to 400%. And the price of admission to the "small and light [AND RUNNING REAL WINDOWS®]" playing field seems to be dropping every week. $600 for a crippled, proprietary device like the FOOLeo appears to be extremely "ambitious" pricing on the part of Palm.

I'm more worried about the marketing and the execution. But until we get to the launch I'm going to leave the speculation to the rest of you and give Palm the benefit of the doubt.

I'm MOST worried that Palm is rushing the FOOLeo to market(Cobalt-style, and it has now run out of time) and that the features the FOOLeo concept would need to differentiate the concept from the competition will be lacking. Without advanced syncing abilities, the FOOLeo doesn't have a snowball's chance in He11 of surviving versus its better/cheaper microlaptop competition.


TVoR

Beersy deconstructed. Part XII
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 6/22/2007 1:09:20 AM # Q
Then you should compare apples with apples and add the smartphone's price to the laptops, too, right? Can't very well place a call, send a text or get your email in your pocket with just a laptop, can you?

But you can place a call, send a text or get your email in your pocket with numerous "free" phones that carriers give away with contracts.

If you want to descend into Sophism 101, I could also mention that since the FOOLeo can't play DVD you need to add a DVD player to its package price. And since it can't run AutoCAD, Photoshop, Dragon NaturallySpeaking, FrontPage, Microsoft Money, Quicken, Adobe Premiere, Microsoft Access, Microsoft Project, then you need to add the cost of a Real Windows® laptop or desktop to the FOOLeo side of the ledger, right?

Try not to be so silly as you go down in flames trying in vain to rationalize/APOLOGIZE FOR the FOOLeo, Beersy.


TVoR

RE: Nice Dell Laptop for $499 - One Day Only
sgiga @ 6/22/2007 4:31:23 AM # Q
"If you want to descend into Sophism 101, I could also mention that since the FOOLeo can't play DVD you need to add a DVD player to its package price. And since it can't run AutoCAD, Photoshop, Dragon NaturallySpeaking, FrontPage, Microsoft Money, Quicken, Adobe Premiere, Microsoft Access, Microsoft Project, then you need to add the cost of a Real Windows® laptop or desktop to the FOOLeo side of the ledger, right?"

You just don't get it, do you? Autocad and Photoshop requires HUGE screens (min 21"), preferably 2. If you purchase a mini laptop to run Autocad, then you really are lost in this world.

I have seen two arguments against the Foleo that on the surface (at least) seems to be viable. I read them here somewhere http://www.trustedreviews.com/ , and they seem to condence "everybodys" dislike of the Foleo in two points:

1. A smartphone is supposed to free you from the laptop, not tie you to yet another laptop device.
2. If you have to carry a laptop sized device in any case, then you will go for a "real" laptop, not some scaled down and crippled substitute.

The error with number one is that the smartphones are NOT supposed to free you from the laptop. At best some of them can work as VERY crippled substitute because of the physical form factor constraints, more as emergency devices. In fact, the only phones that in some way can be considered as laptop *replacements* are the HTC X7500 (can hardly be called a phone), the Nokia E90 and only very marginally the HTC S710. The point is that when trying to replace the laptop with a smartphone, the device will become increasingly more unusable as a phone. Most (at least 90%) of the smartphones focus on phone, music, messaging, PIM, camera, multimeda and so on, or probably better put; a smartphone is a fusion of an ordinary phone and a PDAs. They are not in any way trying to replace the laptop.

The error with number 2 is that it confuses form and function. I think the same issue will surface en mass when the iPhone comes out because people tend to think of it in terms of a phone. The iPhone is a multimedia machine with phone *capabilities*. As a phone it is very limited and unpractical, as a smartphone it is a complete joke. People carry small laptops because there are no alternative when a keyboard and decent screen is needed. If you want to show Autocad drawings etc, you would bring a large laptop, not a small one. You would bring a Foleo if all you need is web, documents, email. If that is what you need, then instant on/off, weight, size is MUCH more important than being able to watch DVDs, play games, work with Autocad etc.

RE: Nice Dell Laptop for $499 - One Day Only
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 6/22/2007 6:10:50 AM # Q
You just don't get it, do you? Autocad and Photoshop requires HUGE screens (min 21"), preferably 2. If you purchase a mini laptop to run Autocad, then you really are lost in this world.

I have seen two arguments against the Foleo that on the surface (at least) seems to be viable. I read them here somewhere http://www.trustedreviews.com/ , and they seem to condence "everybodys" dislike of the Foleo in two points:

1. A smartphone is supposed to free you from the laptop, not tie you to yet another laptop device.
2. If you have to carry a laptop sized device in any case, then you will go for a "real" laptop, not some scaled down and crippled substitute.

The error with number one is that the smartphones are NOT supposed to free you from the laptop. At best some of them can work as VERY crippled substitute because of the physical form factor constraints, more as emergency devices. In fact, the only phones that in some way can be considered as laptop *replacements* are the HTC X7500 (can hardly be called a phone), the Nokia E90 and only very marginally the HTC S710. The point is that when trying to replace the laptop with a smartphone, the device will become increasingly more unusable as a phone. Most (at least 90%) of the smartphones focus on phone, music, messaging, PIM, camera, multimeda and so on, or probably better put; a smartphone is a fusion of an ordinary phone and a PDAs. They are not in any way trying to replace the laptop.

The error with number 2 is that it confuses form and function. I think the same issue will surface en mass when the iPhone comes out because people tend to think of it in terms of a phone. The iPhone is a multimedia machine with phone *capabilities*. As a phone it is very limited and unpractical, as a smartphone it is a complete joke. People carry small laptops because there are no alternative when a keyboard and decent screen is needed. If you want to show Autocad drawings etc, you would bring a large laptop, not a small one. You would bring a Foleo if all you need is web, documents, email. If that is what you need, then instant on/off, weight, size is MUCH more important than being able to watch DVDs, play games, work with Autocad etc.

Unfortunately, YOU seem to be the only one that "just don't get it". The FOOLeo is a $600 2.5 POUND laptop. If you want to claim it's creating a unique device category because it syncs email with a Treo and has instant-on, fine, but you're deluding yourself. For $600 and 2.5 pounds a device better damn well be competetive with the specs and functionality of other devices in that price category. Palm's problem is that the FOOLeo simply is not worth $600. Period. It might have a chance at $300 and probably would fly off the shelves at $200, but I doubt more than 10,000 people would buy one at $600. It's simply a 2.5 pound device that doesn't do anything that can't be done by more functional devices. If a user is going to lug a 2.5 pound laptop around, it had better do EVERYTHING the user could possibly want (not 50% or even 80% of what they want), otherwise it's simply not worth carrying. Is that too hard for you to understand? Treos are about making compromises in order to lighten the load - users are willing to have access to only a small % of laptop functionality (email, Web, documents, schedule, mapping, etc.) on a small screen if it means they only have to carry a small 6 ounce device around that also works as a cellphone that they would be carrying anyway. Palm's dilemma is that $600 2.5 pound laptops can't impose Treo-like compromises and expect to sell. The other problem Palm has revolves around the likelihood that the FOOLeo's raison d'être - wireless syncing - apparently will be very much an incompletely-realized (essentially a beta) vision when the FOOLeo debuts. I feel sorry for Jeff Hawkins, because with the right hardware, a fully developed set of applications, fully-developed server-side (backend) and client-side syncing protocols and at the right price, the FOOLeo concept could have revolutionized the computing industry. As it stands, Palm will never achieve the critical mass of users needed to get this to work (remember the Palm VII, VIIx, i705?) and eventually Apple, Microsoft, etc. will add selected features of the wireless syncing concept (that will no doubt be limited in ways designed to preserve their traditional revenue sources). Palm is the ideal company that could have freed people from dependence on Microsoft + Apple, but in the end it appears that the legacy of incompetent ex-Apple employees destroyed Hawkins' opportunity to create the first paradigm shift (don't you just HATE that term!) in computing since the PC era began.


Is this "worth" $600 + the cost of add on software? The FOOLeo has:

- non-Windows OS
- limited function applications
- tiny application library
- crippled multimedia
- slow processor
- nonexistent storage space (128 MB RAM??? W T F!!! Get serious.)
- disappointing battery life given to feeble specs
- suboptimal vendor support: Palm should be the ones issuing a TON of fully-developed, robust, sync-compatible apps that come STANDARD with every FOOLeo. For a PIM company like Palm to expect users to buy a PIM app for the FOOLeo is absolutely insane - this tells users Palm has completely lost its way.
- apparently no Skype application
- apparently no compatibility with Palm's library of 30,000 legacy applications. Absurd. Palm should have at least included a version of POSE as a standard application, ideally with its own dedicated access button. In fact, there thould be also be 2 - 4 user-configurable buttons on the top right side of the keyboard for launching oft-used applications like Calendar, Internet, etc., providing users with an experience functionally similar to a PalmOS PDA and leveraging the FOOLeo's "instant-on" capability.


I don't dislike the current FOOLeo design. In fact, if it cost $200 - $300, I might even get one. But for $500 - $600 + $??? for all the apps needed to make it (barely) functional? Get serious. I'd rather either spend $200 and get a (near-disposeable) ASUS Eee PC or else spend $1500 and get a Fujitsu P1610. The $700??? (with software) FOOLeo is priced in no man's land and Palm will suffer accordingly.



TVoR

RE: Nice Dell Laptop for $499 - One Day Only
cervezas @ 6/22/2007 10:48:15 AM # Q
I've responded to all of this before. The only things to add (from Marketing 101):

* There is such a thing as too low a price. Maybe not for people who live out of their mother's basement, perhaps, but for business people that consider price when evaluating whether something is a toy or a business tool.

* Products that aim to define a new category should, if anything, be priced high. The Pilot 1000 was overpriced for the miniscule features and applications it included. So were the first Treos, which aside from the added voice and messaging capability, actually had reduced feature sets from the much cheaper Visors that Handspring had been selling. Same with the iPhone. Initially you don't want to rush mass adoption. You want to sell first to the people who see the highest value in it and will pay something of a premium. This cultivates a sense of exclusivity, but more importantly it gives you the time and feedback you need to see how the product needs to be improved.

Voice (should we call you "Michelle" now?): you should go read "Five Myths of Consumer Behavior" if you want to be able to speak with the authority that your imperious tone suggests. Your approach to product development is the typical one that an engineer takes: the only thing you can imagine that a customer wants is more features and specs. That approach has doomed hundreds of technology products to the trash heap of history. Because consumers don't care about feature and spec lists like you do. They care that the product delivers on the one value proposition you make to them. For the Foleo that proposition is a superior wireless email experience, including full support for MS Office attachments.

The more out-of-the-box features Palm adds to the Foleo, the more the primary value gets clouded and confused in the eye of the potential customer. Add features too early in the adoption curve and guess what? Then consumers do see Foleo as nothing more than a PC: generic, complicated, something that's probably going to take time to learn and manage and that has all this "stuff" that they don't really care about. That's when Palm is really in trouble, because the only people who will buy at that point are the ones who share your mindset: the one where only a full-blown PC will do for them.

The trick to marketing Foleo, I'm convinced, is differentiating it from anything else on the market--especially from generic PCs. It's got to be seen as a dedicated tool that does a few things well and accomplishes them without the hassle or expense that a PC imposes. That's how all Palm's successful products have won the market. The poster child for a Palm product that failed because it didn't provide a tightly focused solution (just a big bag of features and specs) is the LifeDrive.

It's a good thing that we have companies like Microsoft around, but the world is also sorely in need of technology companies that understand that computing needs to be simpler, that less is often more. That approach may be intensely frustrating to enthusiasts who want to push their technology products to the limit (if you're reading this, that's probably you). But it's a pretty sound strategy for selling to the masses who don't love their computers or think about them all day and would just like a product that is simple and does what it's supposed to.

Voice, it's surprising to me (or maybe it isn't) that after all these years you've been obsessing about Palm and its products you still don't get the one thing that accounts for Palm's success: simplicity.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: Nice Dell Laptop for $499 - One Day Only
twrock @ 6/22/2007 11:01:37 AM # Q
Yeah, shift all the paradigms anyone wants to and Palm still ends up with a serious piece of work ahead of them when something like the Asus Eee is available for 200 bucks!

I could see myself seriously considering the Asus after reading a few of the reviews of the final product. I have quite a few questions about it that will need to be answered first, but it fits right into my current "paradigm" very nicely, thank you very much. I would still say that the Foleo form factor is preferable to me, including the trackpoint instead of the touchpad. I really need to know just how undersized that keyboard is. I've been almost able to adjust to my Dell 700m keyboard which is just slightly undersized, but I don't think I can go any smaller.

Unfortunately, from a little web searching, it still looks like pricing and specs are not quite "solidified". It might be that by the time I get the Eee up to the "required" specs (for me), it won't be all that much cheaper than the Foleo. So once again, I'm back to "wait and see."

Palm has got to deliver something seriously compelling on the software end of things or they are probably going to get killed by laptops like this one. Palm may not be trying to compete with this product, but this product is competing with them nonetheless.


Thinking about Vista? Think again: http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/pubs/vista_cost.txt
Want an alternative? Try this: http://www.ubuntu.com/ or http://www.mepis.org/

RE: Nice Dell Laptop for $499 - One Day Only
SeldomVisitor @ 6/22/2007 11:09:08 AM # Q
> ...Palm has got to deliver something seriously compelling
> on the software end of things or they are probably going
> to get killed by laptops like this one...

But if it is Linux and it is software then, in a blink of an eye, someone will have written the same functionality into something that is usable on any hardware.

After all, PALM itself said the Fooleo wasn't just for TREOs but ANY smartphone with the software for the OTHER phones written elsewhere - suggesting full disclosure of everything one nees to mimic the Fooleo side as well.

RE: Nice Dell Laptop for $499 - One Day Only
sgiga @ 6/22/2007 2:24:40 PM # Q
He he, just found this screen shot of the Eee. Look at the lower left corner.
http://www.hothardware.com/image_popup.aspx?image=big_a41.jpg&articleid=981&t=a

RE: Nice Dell Laptop for $499 - One Day Only
SeldomVisitor @ 6/22/2007 3:01:10 PM # Q
Is that a standard Linux freebie nowadays?

RE: Nice Dell Laptop for $499 - One Day Only
cervezas @ 6/22/2007 3:40:00 PM # Q
That's a pretty impressive icon. I think we should pit it against a picture of Jeff Hawkins holding the Foleo in a match to the death. Let's settle this Foleo vs Eee score once and for all!

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com/blog
RE: Nice Dell Laptop for $499 - One Day Only
twrock @ 6/22/2007 8:47:07 PM # Q
Yep, the "competition" is looking strong. Palm's not picking for a fight, but it looks like it is coming to them anyway. Over on Engadget there are a string of posts comparing the two.

I'm guessing it's pretty basic hotsync stuff, not the kind of sync that Palm is shooting for (will Palm hit?). Nonetheless, there it is, a "Palm Pilot Tool" already available right out of the box. Sweet.

Hopefully the 1001 will not be priced way higher (10 inch screen). Hopefully it has Bluetooth already (I haven't seen that in any of the specs) that can connect with the handheld in drive mode (meaning that all my data could conceivably remain on my handheld, and I wouldn't need to shell out for the 16 gig version just to have the data availble; I don't want to have to tether it with a cable every time or continuously have to pull move the memory card back and forth). And hopefully that keyboard is "bearable" (a complete "deal killer" from my perspective).

The "Foleo" has me curious and wondering about all the possibilities of where this might be going. It's something I can imagine wanting in the future if they make some of the changes I want. But this "cheap little" thing is at at a minimum an incremental step in that direction (and might be an even bigger step than I'm currently understanding) that I can imagine wanting right now.

Seriously, I'd consider just giving one of my Dell laptops to my wife or one of my kids and picking of the cheapest Eee as a replacement just to find out what it can do, i.e. how much it can be tweaked into becoming my "handheld companion". (For those of you who aren't married with children, considering how one's family members might react to the purchase of yet another "gadget" is not only being appropriately sensitive, but also wise. I can't use David's excuse: "Honey, it's research for my business.") ;-)


Thinking about Vista? Think again: http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/pubs/vista_cost.txt
Want an alternative? Try this: http://www.ubuntu.com/ or http://www.mepis.org/

Is Beersy just PLAYING dumb, or is he... you know...???
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 6/22/2007 10:53:33 PM # Q
good* There is such a thing as too low a price. Maybe not for people who live out of their mother's basement, perhaps, but for business people that consider price when evaluating whether something is a toy or a business tool.

Sure Beersy. Everyone is going to buy a $600 FOOLeo instead of the $200 Eee PC because they like paying more for less...
By the way, I just donated $100 to the Tabes Dorsalis Organization of America in your honor.

* Products that aim to define a new category should, if anything, be priced high.

Uh huh. Palm is wise in pricing its Linux laptop 2 or 3 times higher than competing devices because the FOOLeo can sync email with a Treo. Brilliant strategy, Bubba. Do you EVER think before you spew such drivel in public?

He he, just found this screen shot of the Eee. Look at the lower left corner.
http://www.hothardware.com/image_popup.aspx?image=big_a41.jpg&articleid=981&t=a

When I posted that link yesterday I wondered how long it would take for someone to menton that! Ooops! Remind me again why the FOOLeo is "worth" $600? Oh, now I remember:


"There is such a thing as too low a price."


"Products that aim to define a new category should, if anything, be priced high."


TVoR

RE: Nice Dell Laptop for $499 - One Day Only
cervezas @ 6/23/2007 9:32:57 AM # Q
You can laugh all you want, but you know I'm right. I can tell by the way you're starting to flail. :)

Talk to Ed Zander about your idea that lower prices are always better. 48% drop in profits last quarter... mmm mmm mmm. Palm's done very well starting new products at a bit of a premium to their ultimate price target and then steadily dropping the price or adding feature as new versions come out. The company and its products wouldn't be here today otherwise.

Either way, $500 is a good price for a serious business device with Foleo's light weight and excellent ergonomics, if it works as Palm says.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com/blog

Beersy = the new Kirvin.
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 6/23/2007 2:52:10 PM # Q
You can laugh all you want, but you know I'm right. I can tell by the way you're starting to flail. :)

If that's what you need to believe, Beersy...

Talk to Ed Zander about your idea that lower prices are always better. 48% drop in profits last quarter... mmm mmm mmm. Palm's done very well starting new products at a bit of a premium to their ultimate price target and then steadily dropping the price or adding feature as new versions come out. The company and its products wouldn't be here today otherwise.

No one said that "lower prices are always better". Obviously in a free-market, companies will ideally charge whatever the market will bear. Unfortunately for Palm, once competition enters an area in which they previously had no serious rivals, the company historically has shown an inability to respond effectively to the competition by innovating. The only reason that Palm has been able to get away with selling cheaply-made hardware for premium prices in the past has been because its devices did not have significant competition. Palm was basically a guppy that strutted around arrogantly in its fish tank year after year. Now, that guppy has been dumped into the ocean and is going to have to swim with the sharks. As we've seen in the smartphone sphere in the past year, Palm is unable to compete with the Big Boys (sharks). Now that Palm has entered the world of laptops (yes, the FOOLeo is a laptop, no matter how much you and Palm try to deny it) it will have to compete feature for feature with laptops made by huge companies that actually spend money on R&D (rather than spending $30,000,000 buying back the rights to their company's name). Trying to distract potential FOOLeo customers by saying things like "Look, it syncs with a Treo!" isn't going to cut it when those consumers (and reviewers) do honest comparisons between the $600 FOOLeo and devices like the $200 ASUS Eee PC.

Either way, $500 is a good price for a serious business device with Foleo's light weight and excellent ergonomics, if it works as Palm says.

No, $500 "is a good price" FOR PALM. If the competition can come up with a device with better features at a lower price than the FOOLeo, then the competition's price will be what is considered to be "a good price".

Its time for you to cut the B.S., Bubba. You're really starting to Kirvinize™ in most of your posts these days.

TVoR

RE: Beersy = the new Kirvin.
cervezas @ 6/23/2007 6:23:07 PM # Q
Listening you talking about doing "honest comparisons" between two products that haven't even been released is laughable.

Anyway, the logical fallacy in your subject line is called the "reductio ad Kirvinum." And it means YOU LOSE.

See ya, chump.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com/blog

Can ANYONE please explain what the FOOLeo is good for? ANYONE???
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 6/25/2007 1:51:55 AM # Q
Listening you talking about doing "honest comparisons" between two products that haven't even been released is laughable.

Anyway, the logical fallacy in your subject line is called the "reductio ad Kirvinum." And it means YOU LOSE.

See ya, chump.


The more we learn about the FOOLeo, the more pointless it seems. TVoR has postulated that the device is mainly a testbed for wireless syncing and for PalmLinux. Furthermore the FOOLeo obviously was released before it was ready as evidenced by the unfinished nature of its software (missing applications, missing features).

The FOOLeo is a $600 Linux laptop that can also sync with a Treo. OK, fair enough.

BUT...

1) The FOOLeo's included email application cannot function independent of a Treo! W T F! Users can't use Wi-Fi to download or send email. Very smart, Palm. Furthermore, users that have chosen a more reliable PalmOS email program for their Treos like ChatterEmail will not be able to sync their email to the FOOLeo.

2) The FOOLeo's browser does not support multiple tabs, rendering the Internet experience fairly useless. Users doing research on the Web and planning to cut and paste text from several different sites are going to be in for a BIG surprise...

3) Documents To Go is a poor substitute for a Document editor.

4) Applications can only run from the FOOLeo's 128 MB of RAM. Users that plan to add a large # of apps are hung out to dry by Palm's decision to go with cheap parts spec. Unbelievable.

For a $200 laptop like the ASUS Eee PC to massacre the $600 FOOLeo's feature set so quickly sugests that Palm will be in for a nightmare trying to convince people that they "need" a FOOLeo.

It looks like the only "chumps" are YOU and Palm, Beersy.

TVoR

RE: Nice Dell Laptop for $499 - One Day Only
freakout @ 6/25/2007 2:25:51 AM # Q
Applications can only run from the FOOLeo's 128 MB of RAM. Users that plan to add a large # of apps are hung out to dry by Palm's decision to go with cheap parts spec. Unbelievable.

Really? That's nuts! I smell PowerRUN, Foleo Edition coming...

RE: Nice Dell Laptop for $499 - One Day Only
cervezas @ 6/25/2007 2:58:42 AM # Q
It's not only nuts, it's wrong:

As for internal storage -- when you install a supported CF card, it replaces the internal Flash memory for user data and program storage.

http://discussion.treocentral.com/showpost.php?p=1293442&postcount=73

Today that gives you up to 16GB for apps and data, which is a pretty decent expansion option, IMO.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: Nice Dell Laptop for $499 - One Day Only
freakout @ 6/25/2007 5:24:37 AM # Q
Today that gives you up to 16GB for apps and data, which is a pretty decent expansion option, IMO.

Really? That's not nuts! ;) Serves me right for not following the links.

RE: Nice Dell Laptop for $499 - One Day Only
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 6/25/2007 6:15:23 AM # Q
>>>Applications can only run from the FOOLeo's 128 MB of RAM. Users that plan to add a large # of apps are hung out to dry by Palm's decision to go with cheap parts spec. Unbelievable.

Really? That's nuts! I smell PowerRUN, Foleo Edition coming...

If you need more RAM you have to purchase a CompactFlash card for the FOOLeo and it will replace the TINY 128 MB internal memory shipping with the FOOLeo. Yet ANOTHER hidden cost for this CRAPTOP.

FOOLeo = $600
PIM apps = $???
CompactFlash card = $???
Other apps (security, media player, VNC/remote file access, etc) = $???


GRAND TOTAL = $???

RE: Nice Dell Laptop for $499 - One Day Only
twrock @ 6/25/2007 9:57:58 AM # Q
Furthermore the FOOLeo obviously was released before it was ready....

I must have missed something.


Thinking about Vista? Think again: http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/pubs/vista_cost.txt
Want an alternative? Try this: http://www.ubuntu.com/ or http://www.mepis.org/

RE: Nice Dell Laptop for $499 - One Day Only
SeldomVisitor @ 6/25/2007 10:08:34 AM # Q
Yes, you must have missed something if you actually think the Fooleo is ready as is.

And that very much is "Say what!?".

RE: Nice Dell Laptop for $499 - One Day Only
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 6/25/2007 4:42:37 PM # Q
>>>Furthermore the FOOLeo obviously was released before it was ready....

I must have missed something.

From the things you say it's obvious that you miss A LOT, Bubba.

In case you can't find your laxatives today, you can read the previous statement as "Furthermore the FOOLeo obviously was announced and evidently will be released before it was ready..."


Stay in school, Kids.

TVoR

RE: Nice Dell Laptop for $499 - One Day Only
twrock @ 6/25/2007 7:16:39 PM # Q
"Furthermore the FOOLeo obviously was announced and evidently will be released before it was ready..."

Two tries and you still can't get it right. Here, let me help you little boy.

"Furthermore the FOOLeo obviously was announced and evidently will be released before it is ready..."

So let's see, you're the one who can't seem to put the sentence together correctly, even after multiple tries, but "from the things I say it's obvious that I miss A LOT." Right. Try peddling forward next time.

(I'm going to simply ignore SV. I don't think he's getting much of anything.)


Thinking about Vista? Think again: http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/pubs/vista_cost.txt
Want an alternative? Try this: http://www.ubuntu.com/ or http://www.mepis.org/

Wanna bet, sucker.
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 6/25/2007 9:22:43 PM # Q
>>>"Furthermore the FOOLeo obviously was announced and evidently will be released before it was ready..."

Two tries and you still can't get it right. Here, let me help you little boy.

"Furthermore the FOOLeo obviously was announced and evidently will be released before it is ready..."

So let's see, you're the one who can't seem to put the sentence together correctly, even after multiple tries, but "from the things I say it's obvious that I miss A LOT." Right. Try peddling forward next time.

(I'm going to simply ignore SV. I don't think he's getting much of anything.)

Wait a minute... are you saying you believe Palm will fix the numerous problems with the FOOLeo before it gets released? Care to place a bet on that? Sucker. $100 to the charity of your choice says the FOOLeo will be released without the bulk of its "issues" fixed:

- No bundled PIM apps
- No bundled email app that can download mail without the need for a Treo
- Inadequate RAM
- Inadequate processor
- Inability for included email application to sync with third party PalmOS email apps like ChatterEmail
- Inability to play video (including YouTube) properly
- Inability to have tabs in/multiple instances of the included browser
- Inability to sync with phones other than a Treo
- Lack of included application to stream MP3
- Lack of robust security
- Lack of included VNC application
- Lack of application suite (web or desktop-based) for syncing to online databases
- Unrealistic price
- Lack of multiple dedicated buttons for rapidly launching applications

If Palm fixes more than 50% of these problems, name your charity.

RE: Nice Dell Laptop for $499 - One Day Only
twrock @ 6/26/2007 7:16:53 AM # Q
TVOR, what is you problem? Seriously. Why is it you want to put words in my mouth and build yet another straw man? Show me anywhere that I said that Palm would fix all of that and have the "complete" product (as you define complete) when it is released. Yeah, I see that you formed it as a question. But then you promptly go off on some wild imaginative ride about what I meant when I said nothing of the kind. What, is SV's "trouble" rubbing off on you? I pointed out the logical fallacy of your original statement. For whatever reason you apparently can't deal with making a mistake. Whatever. Grow up.

I'm only interested in where and when I can get the products I want. It really doesn't matter to me at all what you want the Foleo to be able to do when it is released. If somehow when it is released it does what I want, then I'll consider buying it. If not, then I won't. Up to this point, from what I understand of the Foleo and what it can and can't do, I'm not going to be buying it.

There, is that clear enough for you (and SV)?


Thinking about Vista? Think again: http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/pubs/vista_cost.txt
Want an alternative? Try this: http://www.ubuntu.com/ or http://www.mepis.org/

Reply to this comment

OK, what is the REAL cost for going online with the FOOLeo?

The_Voice_of_Reason @ 6/23/2007 1:35:17 AM # Q
Beersy seems to think Internet Access with the FOOLeo is somehow free. Guess again:

http://www.palm.com/us/products/mobilecompanion/foleo/web.html#footnotes

1 Requires compatible phone with Bluetooth® wireless technology. Email requires data services on the phone from a mobile service provider at an additional cost. ISP and/or VPN may also be required. Within wireless service coverage area only.

2 Within range of Wi-Fi hotspot using 802.11b wireless connection. Some Wi-Fi hotspots require fee for usage.

3 A dial up networking plan from your service provider may be required at an incremental cost above and beyond the service provider's regular smartphone data plans.

Palm, Treo, and Foleo are among the trademarks or registered trademarks owned or licensed to Palm, Inc. All other brand and product names are or may be trademarks of, and are used to identify products or services of, their respective owners.

______________________________________________________________________________________
Compare that to "free" tethering a Real Windows laptop to a Treo via PdaNet. If the FOOLeo can't be tethered "for free" then I wouldn't consider getting one, even if they dropped the price to $299.


TVoR

RE: OK, what is the REAL cost for going online with the Foleo?
cervezas @ 6/23/2007 9:18:17 AM # Q
Having a hard time understanding this are you, sweetheart? Actually, you understood perfectly. It's just easier for you to make sh*t up than admit someone's got a point. But let's go ahead and be clear.

If you tether a device (be it a Windows machine or a Foleo) to your phone and you exceed what the carrier considers to be allowable under its TOS (an amount that is unpublished and, as you yourself pointed out, is wholely at the discretion of the carrier) you will have your service terminated and you will receive a big, nasty bill.

What the Foleo does by design is let you work around this with local sync. Internet usage *from the handset* is unlimited with most data accounts--grab all you want and never worry about a TOS violation. So the idea is you can grab all your latest email, feeds, documents, (eventually music, video, etc.) from the phone and then sync them over to the Foleo. You could be on a plane with your phone disconnected from the network and still do the sync. And you can avoid the TOS violation no matter how much bandwidth you consume.

That's it. No "free Internet." (Except free WiFi.) Just a wireless device that helps you avoid getting your wireless service terminated. If you already own a smartphone with a data plan, there's no *extra* cost.

The point about the Windows laptop costing you more to use was that if you want to do all those things you can't do on a Foleo, including watching YouTube or downloading music and movies, you *definitely* are going to want a wireless card for that laptop and a data plan for it, because those are *exactly* the high-bandwidth scenarios that have got people shut down when they did them by tethering the phone.


David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: OK, what is the REAL cost for going online with the FOOLeo?
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 6/23/2007 2:26:02 PM # Q
Having a hard time understanding this are you, sweetheart? Actually, you understood perfectly. It's just easier for you to make sh*t up than admit someone's got a point. But let's go ahead and be clear.

"Sweetheart"? Go **** yourself, Beersy. I posted the FACTS (straight from Palm's site), which you seem to have conveniently ignored.

If you tether a device (be it a Windows machine or a Foleo) to your phone and you exceed what the carrier considers to be allowable under its TOS (an amount that is unpublished and, as you yourself pointed out, is wholely at the discretion of the carrier) you will have your service terminated and you will receive a big, nasty bill.

If users exceed an unknown (arbitrary) amount of data transfers, then the carriers may terminate their contract.

What the Foleo does by design is let you work around this with local sync. Internet usage *from the handset* is unlimited with most data accounts--grab all you want and never worry about a TOS violation. So the idea is you can grab all your latest email, feeds, documents, (eventually music, video, etc.) from the phone and then sync them over to the Foleo. You could be on a plane with your phone disconnected from the network and still do the sync. And you can avoid the TOS violation no matter how much bandwidth you consume.

What you don't seem to understand is that data transfers can be considered excessive even if they are merely being sent directly to a phone rather than to a secondary device connected by tethering. The carriers likely are not extremely concerned if users download a small amount of data via a cellphone and then send the data to a secondary device by various means, including Bluetooth, direct cable connection or FOOLeo syncing. Yes, all things being considered they would prefer that everyone sending data to a secondary device pony up for an expensive data-only contract, but their main concern is the potential for abuse of the networks with excessive data transfers. Which is precisely why even so-called "unlimited" data packages aren't truly "unlimited":

http://www.sprintpcs.com/common/popups/popLegalTermsPrivacy.html

To protect our network, Services, or for other reasons, we may place restrictions on accessing certain Data Content (such as certain websites, applications, etc.), impose separate charges, limit throughput or the amount of data you can transfer, or otherwise limit or terminate Services. If we provide you storage for Data Content you have purchased, we may delete the Data Content with notice or place restrictions/limits on the use of storage areas. You may not be able to make or receive voice calls while using data Services.

Specific Terms & Restrictions On Using Data Services
In addition to the rules for using all of our other Services, unless we identify the Service or Device you have selected as specifically intended for that purpose (for example, wireless routers, Data Link, etc.), you can’t use our data Services: (1) with server devices or host computer applications, or other systems that drive continuous heavy traffic or data sessions; and (2) as a substitute or backup for private lines or frame relay connections. We reserve the right to limit or suspend any heavy, continuous data usage that adversely impacts our network performance or hinders access to our network. If your Services include unlimited web or data access, you also can’t use your Device as a modem for computers or other equipment, unless we identify the Service or Device you have selected as specifically intended for that purpose (for example, with "phone as modem" plans, Sprint Mobile Broadband card plans, wireless router plans, etc.).

Allow me to simplify things for you: If you think you're going to be able to use a FOOLeo to sync over massive amounts of data (e.g. streaming multimedia) acquired by a Treo then you're sadly mistaken. Whether a user is sending large quantities to a laptop via tethering vs. to a FOOLeo via syncing (presumably a Bluetooth connection) is irrelevant. They're still overloading the carrier's network and will be dealt with accordingly.

Here's an old thread discussing this type of issue:
http://discussion.treocentral.com/showthread.php?t=43680

That's it. No "free Internet." (Except free WiFi.) Just a wireless device that helps you avoid getting your wireless service terminated. If you already own a smartphone with a data plan, there's no *extra* cost.

Wrong as usual, Beersy. The only way that the FOOLeo "helps you avoid getting your wireless service terminated" is that it's currently such a crippled device that it would likely discourage you from using it in ways that would rack up heavy amounts of data downloading. If the FOOLeo was as capable a multimedia device as a Real Windows® laptop then users would be interested in acquiring large amounts of data just like Real Windows® users do.

The point about the Windows laptop costing you more to use was that if you want to do all those things you can't do on a Foleo, including watching YouTube or downloading music and movies, you *definitely* are going to want a wireless card for that laptop and a data plan for it, because those are *exactly* the high-bandwidth scenarios that have got people shut down when they did them by tethering the phone.

Nice attempt to weasel out of your ridiculous attempt to Astroturf for the FOOLeo, Beersy. Sounds like you're admitting that the only reason the FOOLeo puts users less at risk of running afoul of the carriers' data limits is because the FOOLeo is crippled as a multimedia playing device. Furthermore, what you don't seem to understand is that even if they user purchases a "wireless card for that laptop and a data plan for it", they STILL don't get "unlimited" data transfers. The carriers can still shut a user down if the carrier deems that (in their opinion) "excessive" bandwidth is being used:

We reserve the right to limit or suspend any heavy, continuous data usage that adversely impacts our network performance or hinders access to our network.

It's a good thing that you're not a lawyer - all of your clients would either be dead or in jail. Stay in school, Kiddo.

TVoR

RE: OK, what is the REAL cost for going online with the Foleo?
cervezas @ 6/23/2007 6:13:29 PM # Q
Finally starting to get it, I see.

So to summarize: if you need to be downloading/streaming stuff all the time for your mobile computing world to work for you, not only is the Foleo the wrong product for you, but so is a tethered PC or the Asus, etc. That isn't a limitation of Foleo, that's a limitation of your carrier.

The Foleo still gives you better access to data off the cell networks because some carriers (Cingular is particularly notorious) block dial-up networking via the phone altogether unless you have a special account. For example, I could do email with a Foleo paired to a Cingular Treo, whereas I can't do it with my Nokia N800 tethered to the it: Cingular just says "no dial-up unless you pay extra." Now you understand why Palm has the disclaimer that dial-up networking.

You've wandered so far away from talking about what all the people in Palm's target market need that the discussion is pretty pointless now. Pointing out the obvious advantages (cost, ergonomics, instant start-up, simplicity...) only forces you into a corner where you have to resort to ad hominem attacks. That makes me look like I'm talking with the screaming drunk that lives outside the Greyhound station, which wastes my time, agitates you unnecessarily, and annoys bystanders with your racket.

Unlike many of the posters here and elsewhere, I'd really have to get my hands on a Foleo before I was willing to pass judgment on its value to its target market or competitive prospects. I think the product concept is quite good, and I am reading signs that there has been some attention to detail with the ergonomics and build quality, which is encouraging. But I trust my own judgment more than anything I read on the web and, sheesh, the product specs and software haven't even been finalized yet. I've applied to the developer program and hope to hear something soon, but until then I think I've basically said my piece.

Sorry this seems to have been a bit of a trauma for you, and my apologies to the rest of PIC for feeding the troll.


David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: OK, what is the REAL cost for going online with the FOOLeo?
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 6/25/2007 1:19:53 AM # Q
Finally starting to get it, I see.

So to summarize: if you need to be downloading/streaming stuff all the time for your mobile computing world to work for you, not only is the Foleo the wrong product for you, but so is a tethered PC or the Asus, etc. That isn't a limitation of Foleo, that's a limitation of your carrier.

Beersy, I merely pointed out that the so-called advantage of the FOOLeo that you had touted (saving on data transfers) is in fact non-existent for many (most?) customers.

The Foleo still gives you better access to data off the cell networks because some carriers (Cingular is particularly notorious) block dial-up networking via the phone altogether unless you have a special account. For example, I could do email with a Foleo paired to a Cingular Treo, whereas I can't do it with my Nokia N800 tethered to the it: Cingular just says "no dial-up unless you pay extra." Now you understand why Palm has the disclaimer that dial-up networking.

That's a pretty weak argument for buying a FOOLeo. You're REALLY reaching here.

You've wandered so far away from talking about what all the people in Palm's target market need that the discussion is pretty pointless now. Pointing out the obvious advantages (cost, ergonomics, instant start-up, simplicity...) only forces you into a corner where you have to resort to ad hominem attacks. That makes me look like I'm talking with the screaming drunk that lives outside the Greyhound station, which wastes my time, agitates you unnecessarily, and annoys bystanders with your racket.

Wow - "the screaming drunk that lives outside the Greyhound station..." Nice attempt to smear me in the hope no one will notice you got DESTROYED in this little debate. Try again.
So you consider the FOOLeo's cost an advantage? Odd, since most people seem to feel cost is one of the device's (multiple) Achilles heels.
Assessment of ergonomics will have to wait until the device is released, but Palm's failure to include multiple buttons for launching PIM (or other user-chosen) applications is rather odd given the device's much-touted "instant-on" capability.
Instant startup is a nonissue due to the option of using "suspend" mode on Real Windows laptops.
"Simplicity" is not an advantage when it's more accurately termed "simplistic" and when missing features prevent the device from being used to do all the things that a 2.5 POUND Real Windows laptop can do.

Unlike many of the posters here and elsewhere, I'd really have to get my hands on a Foleo before I was willing to pass judgment on its value to its target market or competitive prospects. I think the product concept is quite good, and I am reading signs that there has been some attention to detail with the ergonomics and build quality, which is encouraging. But I trust my own judgment more than anything I read on the web and, sheesh, the product specs and software haven't even been finalized yet. I've applied to the developer program and hope to hear something soon, but until then I think I've basically said my piece.

It's not hard to judge the device based on its high price and limited features. The FOOLeo obviously is being rushed into production before Palm has finished its software, so the product will be crippled when it arrives. Users will apparetly be dependent upon Palm and third party developers to add features that should have been standard from Day 1. VERY interesting business model, Palm... The fact that the FOOLeo can't even download email without the help of a Treo effectively limits the device's market to Treo owners... who are willing to buy a 2.5 POUND non-Windows laptop... that doesn't have much software... and costs $600. The lack of included PIM applications is laughable. The lack of tabbed browsing is inexcusable. Palm's decision to release the FOOLeo in it's current (beta) state is reminiscent of PalmSource's "release" of Cobalt in December 2003. I expect the end result may very well be the same...

Sorry this seems to have been a bit of a trauma for you, and my apologies to the rest of PIC for feeding the troll.

"Trauma"? "Troll"? How dramatic of you, Beersy. Is this your way of running off with your tail between your legs? As usual, you have been exposed to be full of sh!t. As usual, you Exit Stage Left with a flourish, hoping no one will remember how badly you FOOBARed all of your lines while onstage. Take care.

TVoR


RE: OK, what is the REAL cost for going online with the Foleo?
cervezas @ 6/25/2007 4:08:40 AM # Q
That's it? Only one screenful?
Well, at least you made it easy for new readers to diagnose your condition:

ALL CAPS = "I am a narcissist" Often used for closing signatures like "TVOR, UNDEFEATED UNDISPUTED HEAVYWEIGHT CHAMPION OF PALMINFOCENTER." In the current post only the word FOOL gets the CAPS treatment. An unconscious cry for help? Most likely. Imagine the humiliation and self-degradation these public displays cause him. Eventually the surpressed SuperEgo tries to put a stop to the nonsense but in its state of arrested development can only gurgle FOOL... FOOL... in the presence of the rampant id.

Bold face: Generally means "I don't have a good answer for that last comment, so I probably should shut up, but I can't very well do that either. So maybe if I put it in bold face I'll come off ok."

Underlined: Transparently means "Don't try to read between the lines because if you remove my sneering tone you'll realize that there are facts in there that don't really make my case. If I add these bars perhaps people's eyes won't wander up to where someone else discussed these facts in context."

The absence of references to "biotch" when referring to other discussants could be the feeble SuperEgo managing one last time to restrain the id from it's embarrassing tantrum, or it could just be the nurse arrived in time with the Haloperidol. Since we didn't get the usual 3 screens-full of psychosis I'm going with the Haldol.

Sweet dreams, "Michelle"

RE: OK, what is the REAL cost for going online with the FOOLeo?
freakout @ 6/25/2007 5:33:34 AM # Q
Have you two ever thought about doing an Odd Couple-style sitcom? ;)
Are you OK, Beersy? Seriously.
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 6/25/2007 6:23:58 AM # Q
That's it? Only one screenful?
Well, at least you made it easy for new readers to diagnose your condition:

ALL CAPS = "I am a narcissist" Often used for closing signatures like "TVOR, UNDEFEATED UNDISPUTED HEAVYWEIGHT CHAMPION OF PALMINFOCENTER." In the current post only the word FOOL gets the CAPS treatment. An unconscious cry for help? Most likely. Imagine the humiliation and self-degradation these public displays cause him. Eventually the surpressed SuperEgo tries to put a stop to the nonsense but in its state of arrested development can only gurgle FOOL... FOOL... in the presence of the rampant id.

You're fading fast, Beersy. Is there a reason you've sunk to the level of attacking a poster instead of addressing the points of the post? Hmmmmm?

Bold face: Generally means "I don't have a good answer for that last comment, so I probably should shut up, but I can't very well do that either. So maybe if I put it in bold face I'll come off ok."

Wow, Beersy. You're really losing it here. Next time try counting to 10 before you post a comment.

Underlined: Transparently means "Don't try to read between the lines because if you remove my sneering tone you'll realize that there are facts in there that don't really make my case. If I add these bars perhaps people's eyes won't wander up to where someone else discussed these facts in context."

Is everything at home OK, Beersy? Remember: we're here for you.

The absence of references to "biotch" when referring to other discussants could be the feeble SuperEgo managing one last time to restrain the id from it's embarrassing tantrum, or it could just be the nurse arrived in time with the Haloperidol. Since we didn't get the usual 3 screens-full of psychosis I'm going with the Haldol.

Sweet dreams, "Michelle"

Who is this "Michelle", you keep referring to? Is she real to you?

TVoR
(Worried about Beersy in The City)

RE: OK, what is the REAL cost for going online with the FOOLeo?
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 6/25/2007 6:25:48 AM # Q
Have you two ever thought about doing an Odd Couple-style sitcom? ;)

Already doing it. Beersy plays my biotch.

TVoR

RE: OK, what is the REAL cost for going online with the Foleo?
cervezas @ 6/25/2007 9:39:41 AM # Q
TVoR wrote:
Is there a reason you've sunk to the level of attacking a poster instead of addressing the points of the post?

Why should you get to have all the fun? :) Besides, you stopped making new points about Foleo three days ago. If the "discussion" was to continue I had to work with what you gave me. :)

Who is this "Michelle", you keep referring to?

Do you really want to go there, you sad little man?

Anyway, I'm done now.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: OK, what is the REAL cost for going online with the FOOLeo?
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 6/25/2007 4:00:38 PM # Q
>>>TVoR wrote:

>>>Is there a reason you've sunk to the level of attacking a poster instead of >>>addressing the points of the post?

Why should you get to have all the fun? :) Besides, you stopped making new points about Foleo three days ago. If the "discussion" was to continue I had to work with what you gave me. :)

[Insert nervous little laugh from Beersy above]
Beersy, you continue to struggle with expressing yourself. Perhaps because your position (and intellect) are so weak? Hmmmm?

>>>Who is this "Michelle", you keep referring to?

Do you really want to go there, you sad little man?

Please "Go there" and show us you're even more of a buffoon as evidenced by your recent blithering posts. The spittle is running down your chin again. Do you need a bib?

Anyway, I'm done now.

Suuuure you are. As Palm's unofficial Palm Apologist Biotch you'll keep coming back to post increasingly ridiculous excuses for the company's failure to execute. And as usual, when confronted with The Ugly Truth, you cowardly attack the messengers and then run away.


TVoR

RE: OK, what is the REAL cost for going online with the FOOLeo?
stonemirror @ 6/25/2007 4:56:24 PM # Q
Is there a reason you've sunk to the level of attacking a poster instead of addressing the points of the post?

You must be joking.

(Maybe he's been persuaded to emulate your example.)

Let's see whether the response to this "addresses the point" or "attacks the poster".

In case you happen to be unclear, the point is that it's fabulously hypocritical for you to take anyone to task for "attacking a poster" considering that you've been--with absolute, unfailing consistency--the one the most guilty of this by far, and by an extremely wide margin.


RE: OK, what is the REAL cost for going online with the FOOLeo?
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 6/25/2007 5:15:09 PM # Q
>>>Is there a reason you've sunk to the level of attacking a poster instead of addressing the points of the post?

You must be joking.

(Maybe he's been persuaded to emulate your example.)

Let's see whether the response to this "addresses the point" or "attacks the poster".

In case you happen to be unclear, the point is that it's fabulously hypocritical for you to take anyone to task for "attacking a poster" considering that you've been--with absolute, unfailing consistency--the one the most guilty of this by far, and by an extremely wide margin.

Well if it isn't David Schlesinger, PalmSource senior manager. Do you have any useful information to contribute to this discussion, David or are you merely complaining about TVoR as usual? Beersy dug his own hole by spewing B.S. attempting in vain to defend Palm's questionable decisions. It's touching to see you ride in on a white stallion and try to rescue the bearded maiden Beersy, but I would suggest you get your own house in order before trying to save someone else.

How are things going with your company's still-unseen ALP-OS (nee Cobalt)? Do you think we'll see any devices running ALP-OS before 2009? Or EVER? It sounds like Palm got fed up with waiting for PalmSource to deliver a next-generation operating system and had to go and cobble one together for themselves. That doesn't reflect too well on PalmSource, now does it? Remind me how much money was spent developing Cobalt?

Take care, David. Hugs and kisses, as always.

TVoR


The Mouth 'Responds' As Expected...
stonemirror @ 6/26/2007 10:53:04 AM # Q
Yup, just as I expected. You don't "address the point", you attack the poster instead. Thanks for living down to my expectations of your hypocrisy.

I even went to the trouble of telling you exactly what the point was: "In case you happen to be unclear, the point is that it's fabulously hypocritical for you to take anyone to task for 'attacking a poster' considering that you've been--with absolute, unfailing consistency--the one the most guilty of this by far, and by an extremely wide margin."

I guess you weren't able to grasp that. Do you need me to use smaller words or something...?

...PalmSource senior manager...

ACCESS director, actually. You're clearly misinformed.

How are things going with your company's still-unseen ALP-OS (nee Cobalt)?

"Unseen"? It's been seen at a variety of events, including 3GSM and CTIA, by thousands of people, and at a number of other places, several of which I detailed for you in previous responses. If you want to see it, feel free to make an appearance at LinuxWorld (if you have the courage), I'll be happy to demo it personally for you.

Things are going extremely well, as I informed you in some detail the last time you asked--try actually reading the responses you get, your own replies might be better-informed and not give the impression that you've got serious difficulties with your short-term memory. And, just to address your obvious confusion, the ACCESS Linux Platform is not in any way a rewrite or reimplementation of prior efforts.

Do you think we'll see any devices running ALP-OS before 2009? Or EVER?

No question, once again as I told you the last time you asked. We're anticipating seeing devices coming out in early 2008, which--by my reckoning--is indeed before 2009. If you don't listen to the answers you get, but continue asking the same questions over and over, providing you with the same answers time after time is going to get tedious for me.

Work on that reading comprehension, eh? Maybe sounding out the big words would help.

That doesn't reflect too well on PalmSource, now does it?

I don't see how your uninformed suppositions reflect one way or another on ACCESS, actually.

As usual, David Schlesinger makes a COMPLETE fool of himself.
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 6/27/2007 12:01:21 AM # Q
Yup, just as I expected. You don't "address the point", you attack the poster instead. Thanks for living down to my expectations of your hypocrisy.

I even went to the trouble of telling you exactly what the point was: "In case you happen to be unclear, the point is that it's fabulously hypocritical for you to take anyone to task for 'attacking a poster' considering that you've been--with absolute, unfailing consistency--the one the most guilty of this by far, and by an extremely wide margin."

I guess you weren't able to grasp that. Do you need me to use smaller words or something...?

I'm sorry to hear you feel that way, David. So Beersy attacking TVoR and cowardly running away from his (losing) position is justifiable in your mind because you feel that TVoR has previously attacked posters? Wow. Get a clue, Bubba.

>>>...PalmSource senior manager...

ACCESS director, actually. You're clearly misinformed.

Is this your way of announcing to the world that you've received a promotion, David? Are you THAT insecure that you need for everyone to know what a "Big Bossman" you are at Access? How pathetic. Congratulations, by the way. I hope your employer is still in business in two years. Make sure you keep that résumé up-to-date...

>>>How are things going with your company's still-unseen ALP-OS (nee Cobalt)?

"Unseen"? It's been seen at a variety of events, including 3GSM and CTIA, by thousands of people, and at a number of other places, several of which I detailed for you in previous responses. If you want to see it, feel free to make an appearance at LinuxWorld (if you have the courage), I'll be happy to demo it personally for you.

Things are going extremely well, as I informed you in some detail the last time you asked--try actually reading the responses you get, your own replies might be better-informed and not give the impression that you've got serious difficulties with your short-term memory. And, just to address your obvious confusion, the ACCESS Linux Platform is not in any way a rewrite or reimplementation of prior efforts.

And as I believe I told YOU before, anyone can do product demonstrations and tout vaporware at conferences until the cows come home. ALP-OS' spiritual predecessor, Cobalt was the prime example of such a strategy. (Anyone willing to pay for floor space at these conventions/conferences can demo whatever vaporware crap they've cobbled together in their basements.) Unfortunately for you, showing up at LinuxWorld (are you going to have another dumba$$ Segway to give away this year?) is rather meaningless in the big scheme of things. Until you have phones actually running ALP-OS available in the market then your OS remains about as relevant as Cobalt is today.

>>>Do you think we'll see any devices running ALP-OS before 2009? Or EVER?

No question, once again as I told you the last time you asked. We're anticipating seeing devices coming out in early 2008, which--by my reckoning--is indeed before 2009. If you don't listen to the answers you get, but continue asking the same questions over and over, providing you with the same answers time after time is going to get tedious for me.

"Early 2008"? Yeah, right... we'll believe that when we see it. No doubt those phones will be released along with the "dozens" of Cobalt devices that are now currently several years overdue.

Work on that reading comprehension, eh? Maybe sounding out the big words would help.

Perhaps you should be more concerned with Access working on getting a functional OS into the market.

>>That doesn't reflect too well on PalmSource, now does it?

I don't see how your uninformed suppositions reflect one way or another on ACCESS, actually.

David, don't feel bad just because PalmSource failed to deliver a stable operating system to Palm. No doubt the rejection still stings. Do yo still cry yourself to sleep like the geeky little Emo Kid you are? But remember: It wasn't just Palm that utterly rejected Cobalt. It was every PalmOS licensee that told PalmSource to go fcuk itself and go fix that steaming pile of feces that you had shipped to them.

So now it looks like Palm has plans to graft POSE onto their version of PalmLinux and completely cut Access out of the loop forever. Try not to cry, David. Maybe some low-budget Asian handset manufacturers will license ALP-OS for use in a low-budget phone. Just don't count on cashing in any big licensing checks anytime soon. Or EVER.

Take care, little buddy.


TVoR

P.S.

If you ever come up to The City, check out Sushi Ran in Sausalito (too loud and Yuppie-ish for my tastes) or Sushi Gourmet in Strawberry Village (Mill Valley). And remember what I told you about Ottawa.

Game, Set, Match.
stonemirror @ 6/27/2007 8:34:40 AM # Q
...justifiable in your mind because you feel that TVoR has previously attacked posters...

Nope, not at all. You missed it again. Try going back and reading what I wrote slowly.

Thanks for doing such a terrific job of demonstrating my point: you don't mind dishing out abuse to all and sundry, and in the basest possible terms, but let someone give you back even a little of the same treatment, and suddenly you're whimpering about "attacking the poster".


Oh, by the way...
stonemirror @ 6/27/2007 8:46:35 AM # Q
Even though I don't care for East Indian food, I took the trouble to ask several of my Ottawa friends about Haveli. The food is reportedly only "okay", and the service is abysmal. The general consensus: "tourist trap".

The online reviews corroborate this:

"The service is discriminatory and arrogant...As for the food, it's about average."

"...after being ignored for over 1/2 an hour by the staff and then being admonished for asking for water and menues we decided to leave. I've never felt more unwelcomed at a restaurant. I felt as if we were an inconvenience to them."

"Consistantly rude staff, don't seem to care one way or another if you visit their business. Food alright but plenty of other places in Ottawa."

"This restaurant SHOULD BE CLOSED DOWN....the buffet was AWFUL...cold, dry, salty, and not many choices."

"The portion was ridiculously small and was not freshly made. I even got the wrong dish brought to me but was too tired/hungry to complain and the rice dish I had gotten had a top layer that was dried out and was so very hard and unappealing."

Oh, this is interesting: "...we found SMALL WHITE MAGGOTS crawling around on our food." Nice.

Seems like your recommendations have about as much substance to them as your other comments. I'll find my own restaurants, thanks.

WAY-OT: -RE: OK, what is the REAL cost
SeldomVisitor @ 6/27/2007 9:06:58 AM # Q
A quickie Google of "Haveli ottawa" turned up a gajillion reviews, etc. The Yahoo Travel set is...interesting.

RE: OK, what is the REAL cost for going online with the FOOLeo?
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 6/27/2007 11:52:36 AM # Q
>>>...justifiable in your mind because you feel that TVoR has previously attacked posters...

Nope, not at all. You missed it again. Try going back and reading what I wrote slowly.

Thanks for doing such a terrific job of demonstrating my point: you don't mind dishing out abuse to all and sundry, and in the basest possible terms, but let someone give you back even a little of the same treatment, and suddenly you're whimpering about "attacking the poster".


Yawn.

Who ya gonna trust?
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 6/27/2007 12:05:54 PM # Q
A quickie Google of "Haveli ottawa" turned up a gajillion reviews, etc. The Yahoo Travel set is...interesting.


Bwahahahahaha!

Good catch, hengeem! You don't think all of those pages of 1 star reviews could have been written by the same person now, I do you? Of course not! There's no way that somebody that had a (mighty big) bone to pick with the restaurant could EVER have done that, right?

It's interesting to see that the first page of reviews lists five-star ratings and then is followed by four pages of ALL one star ratings. I especially love the review that was "By A Yahoo! User from Not from Ottawa". Crap like this is precisely why you need to take online reviews with a boulder of salt.

To be honest, I was actually trying to help Schlesinger out by returning him the favor he did me by reminding me of the name of a South Bay Japanese noodle house. I guess in this case it's another example of "you can lead a horse to water, but you can make him drink (bukkake-style)".


TVoR

RE: OK, what is the REAL cost for going online with the FOOLeo?
SeldomVisitor @ 6/27/2007 12:29:37 PM # Q
I figured you were trying to send him to the worst possible restaurant.

Giggle.

RE: OK, what is the REAL cost for going online with the FOOLeo?
stonemirror @ 6/27/2007 2:49:17 PM # Q
The Yahoo Travel set is...interesting.

None of the reviews I quoted came from Yahoo Travel. They were from restaurantica.com and restaurantthing.com. The reviews on chowhound.com are no better.

I figured you were trying to send him to the worst possible restaurant.

I don't think the Mouth was doing me any "favors" by attempting to steer me to that place, but maybe it enjoys crappy, unfriendly service and food that's sat out for several hours.

Takes all kinds, I guess.

RE: OK, what is the REAL cost for going online with the FOOLeo?
stonemirror @ 6/27/2007 2:58:04 PM # Q
Crap like this is precisely why you need to take online reviews with a boulder of salt.

I see. But I should take your word for where to eat...? Doubtless this is because you've proven to be so sensible and trustworthy in the past...

"you can lead a horse to water, but you can make him drink (bukkake-style)"

Not to mention showing such impeccable taste. Clearly you're not someone whose drinking (or eating) recommendations I want to take with less than a mineful of salt...

Do me a favor, and don't do me any "favors", hm? As I've said, I definitely don't need your "help".

By the way, you'd probably be much happier with the ramen down at Maruichi on Castro: the food isn't very good and the service sucks there, too.


RE: OK, what is the REAL cost for going online with the FOOLeo?
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 6/27/2007 4:10:47 PM # Q
I figured you were trying to send him to the worst possible restaurant.

Giggle.

As they say in Ottawa... "Moi?"


RE: OK, what is the REAL cost for going online with the FOOLeo?
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 6/27/2007 4:27:36 PM # Q
>>>Crap like this is precisely why you need to take online reviews with a boulder of salt.

I see. But I should take your word for where to eat...? Doubtless this is because you've proven to be so sensible and trustworthy in the past...

Methinks SOMEONE needs to stand up and get the knots out of his panties...

"you can lead a horse to water, but you can make him drink (bukkake-style)"

Not to mention showing such impeccable taste. Clearly you're not someone whose drinking (or eating) recommendations I want to take with less than a mineful of salt...

Come on now, David. We all know you have an acquired taste for "Man Milk". Don't be shy.

Do me a favor, and don't do me any "favors", hm? As I've said, I definitely don't need your "help".

'Cause you're a BIG BOY now, right? Mamma's SO proud of her BIG BOY!

By the way, you'd probably be much happier with the ramen down at Maruichi on Castro: the food isn't very good and the service sucks there, too.

Smile when you say "service sucks" in the same sentence as "Castro" in San Francisco. But then again, you know all about suckage in the Castro.
By the way, what do you think about Palm's new Fellateo laptop?

Hugs & Kisses & Reacharounds (as always)
TVoR


RE: OK, what is the REAL cost for going online with the FOOLeo?
stonemirror @ 6/27/2007 5:29:13 PM # Q
Smile when you say "service sucks" in the same sentence as "Castro" in San Francisco.

That'd be Castro Street in Mountain View, you puerile chowderhead.

By the way, another review of your favorite place from ChowHound: "I've had some pretty horrible Indian at Haveli and Bombay Masala; I thought the local Indian ex-pat population might drive demand for something better."

The evidence strongly suggests that what you "know" and what's actually so are two completely unrelated things. Again. No surprise there.

But then again, you know all about suckage in the Castro.

Let me know when they finally stop keeping you held back in the fifth grade; maybe I'll send flowers. In the meantime, best of luck keeping the bigger children from beating you up and stealing your lunch money.


RE: OK, what is the REAL cost for going online with the FOOLeo?
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 6/27/2007 9:56:03 PM # Q
>>>Smile when you say "service sucks" in the same sentence as "Castro" in San Francisco.

That'd be Castro Street in Mountain View, you puerile chowderhead.

Did I say YOU were talking about The Castro, David? Read the post again and decide for yourself. Ooops! Don't worry - I forgive you.

By the way, another review of your favorite place from ChowHound: "I've had some pretty horrible Indian at Haveli and Bombay Masala; I thought the local Indian ex-pat population might drive demand for something better."

The evidence strongly suggests that what you "know" and what's actually so are two completely unrelated things. Again. No surprise there.

If you're dull enough to trust online reviews then that explains why you continue to work for PalmSource/Access: only the dullest of the dullards stayed on to go down with that sinking ship. (Hey buddy, is Palm licensing ALP-OS? Bwahahahaha!)
By the way, I believe I had recommended a particular SOUP for you to try at Haveli. If you actually know ANYONE in Ottawa, ask them if they've had that soup there. You're too funny.

I'm not surprised that a Man Chowder afficianado like you would be depending on ChowHound for direction in your life...

>>>But then again, you know all about suckage in the Castro.

Let me know when they finally stop keeping you held back in the fifth grade; maybe I'll send flowers. In the meantime, best of luck keeping the bigger children from beating you up and stealing your lunch money.

5th degree black belt? Nope, not yet, but hopefully in a few years.

Take care, buddy.

TVoR

P.S. What's happened to you? The quality of your repartee has taken a definite turn for the worse these days. Are you under a lot of stress with Access? Slippage got you down? Awwwww...


Reply to this comment

Here ya go, but he should post here, too

SeldomVisitor @ 6/24/2007 7:37:23 PM # Q
Reply to this comment

Fresh Start

reidme @ 7/1/2007 10:44:36 PM # Q
What is Palm being so coy about? Why are they positioning this product so strangely? Why do they keep saying it's NOT A LAPTOP? Because it's not really a Mobile Companion, it's a Laptop Killer.

Open any Windows laptop today and you first have to drag 25 years of legacy crap out of the gutter before you can start working. Oh yeah, and install a few critical system updates too.

An instant-on device with Palm OS immediacy and the resources of a laptop: that's their real mission. They just don't want to raise red flags in Redmond yet.


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