Comments on: Hawkins Interview with Palm's Foleo Team

But that's JMO.

Pat Horne

http://www.engadget.com/2007/06/05/asus-new-eee-pc-701-joins-the-laptop-lite-fray-with-a-bang/

$199 for model with 4 GB Flash hard drive
$299 for model with 8 GB Flash hard drive

Linux OS, but will support Windows XP install

VS.

FOOLeo:
- 128 MB RAM
- PalmLinux
- Not Windows compatible
- $599 ("$499 after initial mail in rebate")

In 2006, the Motorola Q shocked Palm with its low price and forced Palm to rethink its Treo pricepoints. The FOOLeo isn't even out yet and the competition has already savagely undercut Palm on pricing. Users can get 3 Eee PC for the price of ONE FOOLeo, for fcuks sake! W T F!!! Even the VIA NanoBook just got pwned by ASUS. At $199 and less than 2 pounds, ASUS has reached the sweet spot for impulse buyers, students, computer-phobic newbies, etc. If they get these things into Wal-Marts and Target stores, prepare for a revolution in the computer industry - for $199 these things can do 90% of the things that the average user does on their laptops. This device will be picked up for use as a near-disposeable laptop that can be carried anywhere for Internet surfing, email and document writing, Skype, etc. Install Windows, Microsoft SyncToy or Migo, back up files to an 8 GB SD card or USB Flash drive and feel free to take this microlaptop to places you would never take a $2000 Sony VAIO or Fujitsu Lifebook for fear of them being stolen. Too bad they don't offer an option for a Windows version for $50 more...

I Pity the FOOLeo. Once people see what $199 can buy, the $599 FOOLeo is going to have to have its price immediately cut to $299 (or "$399 plus $100 rebate" if they insist on playing games) if Palm hopes to sell ANY FOOLeos this year.

Can someone remind me again what Palm is doing introducing the FOOLeo in mid 2007?

TVoR

How strange - I was just reminded by your post that I =do= want a cheap, carry around the house and to the pool laptop to do JUST surfing/email, pretty much.

And $200-$300 for a few hours in-between charges does fit that bill!

Hmmm...where's that credit card...

That is not a game - it is HIGH-ROI Marketing:

-- http://www.google.com/search?q=rebate+scam

It would be interesting to see what percent of potential PALM rebates actually occur. Here's a related-link about Verizon and rebates (from the above search):

-- http://www.slate.com/id/2084210/

I agree. The problem with the Treo is that it doesn't sell. It is a very expensive device consisting of mediocre and buggy technology packed in a several year old design. I don't think the Foleo will sell more Treos, so why they market the Foleo as a Treo companion is very strange. I believe in the Foleo concept, but it has to be marketed as a phone campanion, this means has to work with Symbian, RIM, Linux and Microsoft, certainly not PalmOS Treos.

Someone somewhere around here just mentioned a 19" screen.

Not a problem, necessarily.

About 3 or 4 years ago I mentioned (somewhere) a "component system" of communicating devices (ala a stereo system where you can mix and match components that you purchased separately). Still seems doable.

And seems doable with the Fooleo "concept".

Uh, what? At about 4pm today Colligen will read out loud how many gazillions they sold recently. The Treo is Palm's one-trick-pony these days. Yes, the vultures are beginning to circle b/c of the obvious oncoming competition from the phone giants + Palm's unwillingness to produce technically compelling upgrades. But Treos obviously still have great name recognition and currently ship well. It's the near future that has Palm looking like a buyout target.

*why they market the Foleo as a Treo companion is very strange.*
They really don't market it as a "Treo" companion. It's called "mobile companion" and JH has repeatedly said that Palm will try to accommodate as many phones as possible. Your list is a very good one that I would expect to see. POS+Linux, WinMob, Symbian, & RIM.

*I do think it was absolutely the wrong time for Palm to be focussing on this thing instead of building out their Treo line.*
I disagree for a couple of reasons.
First, "now" is not the time that Palm is focusing on this. Obviously, this kind of paradigm shift has taken the past few years behind the scenes. The price has been paid to a large degree b/c the first device is about to hit the shelves soon. Palm obviously shot itself in the foot with the horrible decision to spin off it's OS back when. The ramifications of that and the Palmsource collapse are obviously major factors in Palm's pathetic product roadmap since the Treo 650. It's been a 15mph school zone, not an interstate.
Also, I hope hope hope that Foleo's resources and brainpower contributed to that somewhat. In other words, I hope the worst of it is over and now the Treos can improve at a decent rate while the Foleo deployment and development builds steam. It looks like the unconnected PDA is finished, so Palm has it's eggs in two baskets. But the focus began a looong time ago in tech terms.
Second, next year would certainly be no better. Competition in the Smartfone market will be even greater for the Treos and the cry would be "not right now" then too. I don't know if Palm can pull off this companion vision or not, but I say this. They have to do something, and doing a features battle with Samsung, Nokia, SE, HTC & RIM is nothing more than a slow painful death. Palm knows that and so does the dark side. Foleo is something nobody else is doing. I mean nobody. That fact may be a blessing or a curse as we'll see. But, Palm is small. Small can innovate in a way that giants find difficult. Hawkins is obviously a successful visionary. Innovating is Palm's only chance for survival. The sooner the better too. Will they pull it off? ... story at 11. :-o

Pat Horne

Yes, LifeDrive One was pure genius.

It just seems odd for a device like Foleo to go after the smallest market segment available, to even consider it, at least from a marketing point of view. But then, maybe it is so generic that there is no major work to extend the Foleo to other operating systems?

Dude, that's just lame. Counting non-querty Symbian 60-series as "smartphones" comparable with the Treo is either a demonstration of your naivete or your agenda.

(1) Symbian can't sell zip in the US. But Treo's sell very, very well.
(2) Non-querty series-60 phones are pretty and all, but hardly functionally comparable to a Treo in real life.

The treo is capable of acting as a laptop replacement, with massive amounts of software and hardware available. It's a hugely successful platform, not a merely a ridiculously expensive yet pretty phone like the non-querty series-60 gadgets. I drive to a client, using the Treo as GPS, switiching between greek lessons on MP3 and concalls on speakerphone. I sync over the air with my home PC running Outlook, pull over, edit some powerpoint slides and send them on by email to a colleague. It just works.

Symbian? Dude, really.

------
"People who like M$ products tend to be insecure crowd-following newbies lacking in experience and imagination."

The reality is that the trend in smartphones has never been QWERTY, it's something RIM introduced with their email-only gadgets, and mainly in the US. Then the Treo came with QWERTY phone, but as much as I like Palm devices it is a large stretch to call the Treo a success by any standard compared with Symbian devices.

All the new top of the line smartphones does not have QWERTY (iPhone, SE W960, Nokia N95, HTCs and so on). Still - SE, Nokia and HTC also have smartphones with QWERTY, but they are mainly marketed as business phones aiming for the same small market segment as RIM is aiming at.

Clearly, there is a place for the Foleo here.

Meta Pad: IBM's Prototype Modular Computer
IBM researchers have invented a prototype 9-ounce portable computing device that could pave the way for a new set of functionality in the handheld space. It can transform in seconds into a handheld, desktop, laptop, tablet or wearable computer, without having to be rebooted.

http://domino.research.ibm.com/comm/pr.nsf/pages/rsc.metapad.html

Perhaps a bit before it's time, it sure looks "big" and clunky.

But probably doable today.

Wow - there it is - the component computer system.

Cool.

Problem is that docking stations are not everywhere, and often they don't belong to you so you are not allowed to use them.

Docks are not mobile.
If you are camping, on a picnic, at a camp, at home, in a car, at a hotel, at work, in the living room, ON THE TOILET! Anywhere! the Foleo can be brought AND be connected via its Wifi OR the Treo's cell radio.

No one is saying the Foleo is to be squeezed like a prison weight into your pocket.
It is a physical extention to your future home, truly personal computer, the smartphone.

For me personally, I see it as being the ultimate, most optimized, most efficient, most pleasant way to get to my personal data and entertainment F A S T.

Of course laptops do everything, the point is the Foleo does things better, from a pragmatic real life human experience perspective.

So put them everywhere. And make them usable by anyone.

I choose hotels the offer in room net access. More and more are doing so these days.

I choose cafes and restaurants that offer wifi. Popping up everywhere (even a local gas station offers free wifi!).

Hotels can offer them. Airlines and airports could offer them. Colleges could have them in dorms, lecture halls, classrooms, labs, student unions, ...

Perhaps you've been in a hotel with a business center. you know, computers, printers, net access available for anyone to use. The Western Wetherill Inn, in Kayenta, Arizona, the middle of nowhere, has a computer and printer for guest use. I've used it.

Maybe you've seen similar setups in airports, train and bus stations.

"Docks are not mobile."

Firm grasp of the obvious there kiddo ...

They are not meant to be. Small and portable AND big and stationary.

"If you are camping, on a picnic, at a camp, at home, in a car, at a hotel, at work, in the living room, ON THE TOILET!"

If I'm camping I not gonna want to drag a Foleo with me. Likewise if I'm at a camp. Or at a picnic. Something like an iPhone would suit my needs much better then a wanna be laptop.

At home, at work, or in a hotel I can have a docking station. In a car a dock linked into the GPS and entertainment system, just add a keyboard.

I do other things on the toilet. But I suppose a docking station could be set up there. I've been in hotels with ethernet jacks in the bathroom so why not a docking station?

As to Foleo, for me, personally, I see it as the last gasp of a dying company.

Sad, very sad. Palm coulda been a contender.

MevetS

So put them everywhere. And make them usable by anyone.

No, just create web-accessible apps that save data to folders that sync with the FOOLeo or Treo. That way anyone with access to an Internet-connected desktop/laptop can create files for their mobile devices.

Nope. Try again. Not everywhere I want to use my data will be connected to the internet. Nor am I just trying to get files on my portable device. I want to view my docs on a large screen. I want a full size keyboard. I just don't want to carry them around. Nor do I want a half assed thing like Fooleo.

I have a cabin in the country. No internet. I can carry my portable device, with all my data, with me when I go there. Drop it in the dock. And I'm not force to use a mini screen or a chicklet keyboard.

Note that the dock could be a full computer. Or it could be a Fooleo class device done right (screen, keyboard, mouse, with the portable device providing the processing power).

The key idea is that the portable device is truly portable (not pseudo portable like Fooleo) and the non-portable device is full size. A phone or PDA size device that I can drop in my pocket.

MevetS

Nope. Try again. Not everywhere I want to use my data will be connected to the internet. Nor am I just trying to get files on my portable device. I want to view my docs on a large screen. I want a full size keyboard. I just don't want to carry them around. Nor do I want a half assed thing like Fooleo.

http://www.palminfocenter.com/comments/9472/#134061

The FOOLeo hardware is a joke. Give us online syncing, Palm.
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 6/20/2007 11:17:35 AM #

"If my PDA/smartphone had 8 or more gigs of storage, the external hard drive would be gone. I'd sync my data at the end of a work day onto my handheld, take it home in my pocket, "link" up with my "Foleo" (perhaps some later generation device), and have something that much more closely resembles what I was looking for when I bought the second laptop"

SOLUTION:

http://store.migosoftware.com/product.php?productid=16135&SourceId=&cat=0&page=1

http://www.kingston.com/flash/dt_IIplusmigo.asp

********************************************************************************

As I've posted before, the true "innovation" in the FOOLeo concept would only be if Palm has figured out wireless syncing between smartphones and online servers. Palm needs to offer online apps that can be used via any Internet-connected computer, allowing app data to be saved online + automatically synced to a user's smartphone (or ANY other device, for that matter, including a FOOLeo). Even better would be to offer a full-featured suite of apps stored on a USB Flash drive that would allow the apps to be run temporarily (+ without any traces being left behind) on a host computer + then would automatically upload file changes to a user's personal space on Palm's server, save the data to the USB Flash drive + wirelessly update the smartphone/other devices in the user's profile.

THAT is the TVoR vision of the future:
1) Full-featured apps always accessible via either web apps or on a USB Flash drive.
2) Automatic saving/syncing of data to online server, smartphone, +/- USB Flash drive, and any other wirelessly connected device capable of communicating with a user's online storage folder.

The key is the software governing the data transfers. Hardware and OS become unimportant.

Wireless data syncing is so much more a significant idea in next-generation computing that Hawkins must be embarassed pimping this pathetic little FOOLeo like a played-out ho. Palm's apparent failure to realize Hawkins' vision is shaping up to be a spectacular failure. This would mark the third time the company has taken one of his brilliant ideas and failed to execute, leaving the door wide open for the competition to cash in on his ideas. Well done, Palm.

TVoR

Control your Treo from your desktop, use desktop to enter data into Treo... hmmmm...

If the smartphone is the "PC", it makes a lot of sense to me to have the data on that, not to carry around an additional "dumb" storage device that requires additional hardware if the data is to be accessed by the user. I can't even look at the data on a USB drive without connecting "it" (or its data) into something else. It isn't "mobile computing" if have to use another machine that I don't carry with me to minimally access my data.

Ok, maybe it's time for me to just give up on asking this question. It's your "vision"; have it however you like. However, in my vision I want a mobile PC (preferably with voice) that carries all my data, and lets me minimally access that data (and preferably edit it as well) in a reasonable format (i.e. large enough screen). It would also allow me to sync my data onto the web and/or with my other "base" devices (my desktop, laptop, or some other terminal device). I want to be able to work with the data on the mobile. I want to be able to pair it with my other devices so that data change anywhere is reflected everywhere. If what you are suggesting is included on the smartphone (the ability to run apps on a third-party device without leaving a trace), then all the better.


Thinking about Vista? Think again: http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/pubs/vista_cost.txt
Want an alternative? Try this: http://www.ubuntu.com/ or http://www.mepis.org/

The USB flash drive isn't mandatory - it would just be a convenient way of temporarily loading an environment of custom applications onto a host computer. Yes, the apps could instead be strictly Web-based, but that means an Internet connection would be mandatory in order to be able to work on a bigger screen. The apps could also reside on the (PalmLinux) Treo and then be accessed when connected to the host computer with a USB cable. If the Treo app is able to use PdaReach-like linking to the host computer and is (ideally) able to scale the Treo app up to fit the host computer's screen then all you would ever need is literally just your Treo and a USB cable. (Or even leave the cable at home if the process works over Wi-Fi.)

MotionApps has an application theat does basically this (scales to the host computer's screen size when the Treo is connected via USB or Wi-Fi) and hints at the Treo's future:

http://www.motionapps.com/mexpenses/_treo700p.jsp

This is an absolutely BRILLIANT concept, and plays perfectly into Hawkins' vision of the Treo as the PC of the future: apps and data residing on the Treo, but ALWAYS accessible from ANY computer.

I believe Palm intends to release a PalmLinux Treo with similar functionality . But first they need to ensure something like POSE works reliably under PalmLinux, so that legacy PalmOS apps are still supported. Then we'll see a series of PalmLinux apps that work both on the Treo and on a desktop/laptop screen when the Treo is connected. The biggest problem in all this is the SPEED at which Palm's software development has moved. If only these concepts had been ready for release 1 or 2 years ago...

TVoR

Uhm... actually, we don't, and I'm not.

The only person the folio will appeal to is non-laptop users. Laptop users will never sacrifice the capability of a desktop OS. The question is, will people that currently travel without a laptop see value in the Foleo? I am thinking no, but we'll have to wait until it launches.

Vampy, are you well? Do you not realize that the FOOLeo that was announced is the equivalent of an alpha release? Palm is putting this "CRAPTOP" out because they can't wait on development any longer and are hoping that third party developers will complete the work that Palm's own codemonkeys were incapable of finishing. Get a clue.

- Instant on (not seconds like Suspend-mode)

Have you ever used a laptop? By the time you sit down and get ready to type it's out of suspend and ready to use. Instant-on is useful for PDAs where you are mainly ACCESSING data on the go, while standing/walking/etc. The FOOLeo will be used like a regular laptop - sitting down and ENTERING data. A 2 or 3 second advantage in starting a FOOLeo is meaningless. Think about it.

- Ultra-compact (not 'small but still larger than Foleo laptops).

??? Real Windows UMPC and microlaptops are available in sizes the same as, smaller than and bigger than the FOOLeo. And they aren't crippled by a lack of useful software.

Compare an IBM X60 to the FOOLeo: http://www.pc.ibm.com/us/thinkpad/3dtours/x60/demo.html

Compare a Fujitsu P1610 to the FOOLeo:
http://store.shopfujitsu.com/fpc/Ecommerce/buildseriesbean.do?series=P1610

People that need REAL computing power will choose a REAL computer. The FOOLeo is a toy akin to the first two (alpha + beta) versions of Nokia's Internet tablet.

- Grab-n-Go. Feel compelled to use more often because it has a '0 harassment' factor (not a 1 or 2 factor for lappies).
- Light enough to constantly carry in backpack, briefcase, purse.

B.S. Real Windows portables are available that are smaller + lighter than the FOOLeo. Plus they actually have REAL software that allows users to do REAL work. "Harassment" is Palm not providing any software for a $500 device that should really sell for $300.

Something no one is talking about...
TOTAL SILENCE.

I actually switched to laptops because I was going crazy with desktop noises.

Foleo? 100% silent. No moving parts.

Now you're REALLY reaching for ways to rationalize the FOOLeo. I seriously doubt noise will be an issue for 99.99% of users. Try again.

Come on guys, we have to give it to him. If we really be honest here and think about it, we all know we are frustrated with semi-mobile laptops, weights, noise, speed, complexity, instantness.

I know many of you are like in my in that we have often not worked on something or played with something because it was too long to load, find or whatever.

I am anxious to order a Foleo.

You are so wrong it's actually kind of pathetic. Frustrating will be how FOOLeo victims feel once they get hit with all of its software limitations and then realize they could have bought a Real Wimdows laptop for the same price. If you order a FOOLeo before trying it out in person (or at least seeing a few impartial reviews) you are a FOOL(eo).

TVoR

P.S. When you're posting a new thread it would be nice if you put all your thoughts into a single post rather than a stream of consciousness of 50 follow up posts.

Indeed.

The only person the folio will appeal to is non-laptop users.

I really think this is an exaggeration. I own two laptops, one at work and one at home. The hassle of transporting a laptop back and forth every day coupled with the relative fragility of a fairly expensive machine resulted in my decision to buy the second one for home use. I'm still a bit "old-school", so my data travels with me in the form of a small USB hard drive. (I might eventually shell out the big bucks for a big enough flash drive, but the hard drive is small enough and convenient enough for now.)

I will readily admit that the Folio as I currently understand it (i.e. as I currently understand the specs and features and probable bundled software) is not the device I am looking for. BUT, it could easily be. It would take very little change for it to be the device I was looking for when I bought my second laptop. (Unfortunately asking for "very little change" from Palm is probably a useless endeavor.)

Instead I have a small 12" laptop that is still too heavy (in spite of it's 4 lbs. weight), too bulky, too bloated (primarily if I boot into the Windows partition; Ubuntu Linux is better, but still too much OS overhead), and too hot. How many of these issues would a properly configured/spec'ed Foleo take care of for me? Yeah, I know that there are "microlaptops" that come close to doing all of that, but in almost every case there is some "deal killer" that keeps me from seriously considering them (undersized keyboard, oversized cost, same old bloat, etc.)

My point isn't that the Foleo is "right" for me right now, only that it does "appeal" to me (in the sense that I can imagine how it could be "right" for me). I can also imagine how it might appeal to other laptop owners even in its current configuration. If my PDA/smartphone had 8 or more gigs of storage, the external hard drive would be gone. I'd sync my data at the end of a work day onto my handheld, take it home in my pocket, "link" up with my "Foleo" (perhaps some later generation device), and have something that much more closely resembles what I was looking for when I bought the second laptop.

So I've got two laptops, and this "type of" thing still appeals to me. They do need to spec it properly, include the "minimum" of software (particularly a rich web experience, a full PIM suite and support for "office" documents). Then "appeal" would probably graduate to "desire". And if they'd finally unplug their collective ears and start listening to the host of people who have been clamoring forever for a "Treo 480" (http://www.palminfocenter.com/comments/9470/#133892), they just might sell me two devices!

(Palm, can you hear me now?!!!)


Thinking about Vista? Think again: http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/pubs/vista_cost.txt
Want an alternative? Try this: http://www.ubuntu.com/ or http://www.mepis.org/

VL, I think you need to take a deep breath and slow down (as others have suggested). My post was not meant in any way to be an "encouragement" to anyone to go right out and pick up the Foleo the moment it hits the streets. Although I can imagine people who might really want this "first generation" device, I not at all convinced you are one of them. With how quickly you went from vowing to leave Palm forever over this failure of a product to believing that the Foleo is "the ultimate, most optimized, most efficient, most pleasant way to get to my personal data and entertainment F A S T", I'm afraid that less then 48 hours from the time you start using one you'll be back here bemoaning all of the limitations you didn't realize it had.

From everything I've seen so far, this Foleo is not being designed to be "the ultimate, most optimized, most efficient, most pleasant way to get to my personal data and entertainment F A S T." If that is what you expect, I'm afraid it will be nothing more than a terrible disappointment.


Thinking about Vista? Think again: http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/pubs/vista_cost.txt
Want an alternative? Try this: http://www.ubuntu.com/ or http://www.mepis.org/

SOLUTION:

http://store.migosoftware.com/product.php?productid=16135&SourceId=&cat=0&page=1

http://www.kingston.com/flash/dt_IIplusmigo.asp

********************************************************************************

As I've posted before, the true "innovation" in the FOOLeo concept would only be if Palm has figured out wireless syncing between smartphones and online servers. Palm needs to offer online apps that can be used via any Internet-connected computer, allowing app data to be saved online + automatically synced to a user's smartphone (or ANY other device, for that matter, including a FOOLeo). Even better would be to offer a full-featured suite of apps stored on a USB Flash drive that would allow the apps to be run temporarily (+ without any traces being left behind) on a host computer + then would automatically upload file changes to a user's personal space on Palm's server, save the data to the USB Flash drive + wirelessly update the smartphone/other devices in the user's profile.

THAT is the TVoR vision of the future:
1) Full-featured apps always accessible via either web apps or on a USB Flash drive.
2) Automatic saving/syncing of data to online server, smartphone, +/- USB Flash drive, and any other wirelessly connected device capable of communicating with a user's online storage folder.

The key is the software governing the data transfers. Hardware and OS become unimportant.

Wireless data syncing is so much more a significant idea in next-generation computing that Hawkins must be embarassed pimping this pathetic little FOOLeo like a played-out ho. Palm's apparent failure to realize Hawkins' vision is shaping up to be a spectacular failure. This would mark the third time the company has taken one of his brilliant ideas and failed to execute, leaving the door wide open for the competition to cash in on his ideas. Well done, Palm.

TVoR

P.S. Feel free to plagiarize me on your stupid blog, Beersy.

Back to today. The Kingston is good, but not yet large enough to handle all my data (I've got a four gig flash drive, but that isn't big enough; currently I need eight or more).
The MigoSync is quite intriguing, particularly because is allows for different hardware options. I'm not sure if I want that "much" sync, but it looks like it is a good option. I'm just using MS's SyncToy at the moment, so the work laptop and the external hard drive get synchronised and the laptop at home just accesses the external drive's files directly. It's free and simple to use. My guess is that it might even do quite a bit more than I'm currently asking from it.


Thinking about Vista? Think again: http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/pubs/vista_cost.txt
Want an alternative? Try this: http://www.ubuntu.com/ or http://www.mepis.org/

Then I got a 20gb in '99 and was able to breathe easier before the 45gb I got in '00 really made things easier and I haven't looked back since.

Right now 4gb on a single card in a Treo/PDA is the baseline for what I can comfortably "live with" as far as media/files/apps/TomTom map data. 8gb would be a lot nicer and I could probably handle everything imaginable other than my huge music collection with 16gb. Ideally, I'd be able to carry around my entire music collection at reasonable bitrates (~120gb) with room to spare for all of the mundane stuff.

Treos, iPhones, and everthing else on the market are still in their infancy with sub-8gb capacities, whether internal or on a removable card(s). At least as far as I'm concerned, we won't start having mobile "life" drives until affordable flash capacities hit 30gb+ and then, ideally, 100gb+.

Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5-->TX-->Treo 700P

Feel free to plagiarize me on your stupid blog, Beersy.

Gosh, thanks, "Michelle" a.k.a "PalmDiva." I hope you'll keep stopping by, sweetheart! ;)

I like the thumbdrive vision except that, like Ron, I want the flash memory to be inside my smartphone where I can access it without a PC.

The online sync stuff TVoR is talking about is not the future. It's the present. It's done, it's carrier grade, it runs on all the Treos and it's free open source software. If you want it, just go get it: http://www.funambol.com. Helio apparently liked it enough that it's the foundation for the contact sync capabilities of the Ocean and all their future handsets.

And I second the motion that VampireLestat needs to take a cold shower. He's getting his expectations on the first version of Foleo way too high right now which means he'll only be back here cursing again in a few months. Vamp: I hate to say this, but I really don't think Foleo is aimed at uber-enthusiast power users like yourself. Not right out of the gate. Initially, I expect it will be aimed at doing just a couple of things well: email and office docs. Try to temper your enthusiasm (which I share) with a good dose of realism and remember that the Palm PDA you use today wasn't the first one Palm ever released.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com/blog

Why carry a mobile storage device to transfer data from work to home and vice versa? Try setting up an rsync server on both machines...

Well, for one thing, most offices have firewalls. rsync can work through a firewall if you know what you're doing, but most client offices I've worked in also have the remote shell ports blocked so you have to get a network admin for a special favor that he most definitely does not want to give you.

If you really want to be mobile with your computing environment you learn quickly that the key is to figure out how to do an end-run around the gatekeepers: the IT department, the network admins, and the wireless carrier. It's the way that Foleo lets you work around the carriers' obstruction of dial-up networking that I find particularly clever. I've never been able to get a laptop to connect to the outside world from inside one of my client's buildings: not through ethernet (without a password for the proxy server), not through wifi (without a WPA key), and not by tethering to my phone (without risking monstrous penalties from the carrier). With a Foleo I can do it because it can use the smartphone to send and receive email and just sync to that. I've evaded all the gatekeepers.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com/blog

My mistake.

All of my data on my Palm "whatever" is just a slight "adjustment" to what I am doing now. And it's an adjustment with a lot of perceived advantage on my part. Always available everywhere I am with no cost of access. That's why I want all of that data on my Palm, because on a hard drive or a USB drive, I still can't access it while I'm mobile (without paying for that access).

Thanks for the suggestions. Someday someone just might teach an old dog new tricks.


Thinking about Vista? Think again: http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/pubs/vista_cost.txt
Want an alternative? Try this: http://www.ubuntu.com/ or http://www.mepis.org/

Right now 4gb on a single card in a Treo/PDA is the baseline for what I can comfortably "live with" as far as media/files/apps/TomTom map data. 8gb would be a lot nicer and I could probably handle everything imaginable other than my huge music collection with 16gb.

I bought my first laptop in 1999. IBM Thinkpad with 4.3 gb hard drive. Plenty big enough for Win 98, all my apps and all my data ... for about a year. Then a bump to 20, and then a bump to 30 (the BIOS limit). Now I use that old 20 gb drive as my portable data drive (gave away the Thinkpad).

An eight gig flash drive would only give me a very small buffer at this point. I just love watching the cost dropping rapidly on the big flash drives (I paid about $20 for my 4 gig one). It'll be great to either carry all my data on a "keychain" or (if Palm ever figures out that they need to deliver a large screened, keyboardless Treo) in my smartphone.


Thinking about Vista? Think again: http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/pubs/vista_cost.txt
Want an alternative? Try this: http://www.ubuntu.com/ or http://www.mepis.org/

Data redundancy. Plus, if a user has no Internet connection and is running the programs off the USB flash drive, then the modified files can be saved directly to the flash drive, allowing them to sync the data later on when they're at a computer with an Internet connection.

There are several different permutations and combinations that would work, but the bottom-line is that Palm needs to have a bulletproof syncing protocol in place, allowing wirelessly connected devices to exchange data with databases stored within a user's online folder. If Palm does not have such a system ready to roll out at this point in time then I doubt they have what it takes to pull off this type of an integrated system. Ironically, Palm is probably the ideal company to have come up with such a system, since they have the potential to profit from sales of components anywhere within the syncing chain. Most other companies (e.g. Microsoft, Apple etc.) would probably be too worried about compromising one of their mature revenue streams (e.g. OS sales, application sales, data transmission sales, etc.) to want to actively pursue this type of data exchange architecture. (It's just too easy to design a system that removes the importance of proprietary components that had previously been profitable for traditional companies.)

TVoR

[completely off topic rant]
On a completely unrelated topic, I've got to say that I hate the touchpad placement on my Dell 700m! It's slightly off center to the right and it is very sensitive. I hit the spacebar exclusively with my right thumb and often inadvertently touch the pad. The text input cursor then jumps to wherever I left the mouse cursor, and I'm suddenly typing away in the middle of some previous paragraph! I know, I know, I should just turn off the "tap to click" feature, but I usually really like it on. I still think a trackpoint is superior. One more feature of the Foleo that I find appealing.
[/completely off topic rant]


Thinking about Vista? Think again: http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/pubs/vista_cost.txt
Want an alternative? Try this: http://www.ubuntu.com/ or http://www.mepis.org/

Foleo = 5 hr
Treo = 3 hr

If you have both with you out in the field, that is 8 hours combined computing time.
The fast manual/auto syncing between F<>T makes it realistic I could be sharing the batt time. I could do all the quick typing on the Foleo and if the batt is dying I can then skip the Treo for my mainly consulting/reading mode tasks.

Something has been triggered and I can feel it.

Ahem. 9 years ago? Don't you mean 4 years ago? VampBuddy, there's no need to B.S. how long you've bee using Palms in an effort to gain credibility here.

bipolar boy

ROTFLMAO!!! Good one, Gek.

probably just for show.

At this stage of the game, if Palm doesn't know EVERYTHING there is to know about how people use mobile devices then perhaps it's time that somebody (Steve Jobs?) gives Jeff Hawkins the tantō so that he can "do the right thing".

While no doubt the millions of dollars in automatic Palm stock sales that Hawkins gets every few months must make things easier to bear, it must be frustrating for him to see each of his ideas undermined by Palm's incompetence. Had the PalmOS PDAs, the Treo and the FOOLeo concepts been properly developed (e.g. by Apple or Dell), Hawkins could potentially have gone down in computer history as having had the same stature as Bill Gates and Steve Jobs.

TVoR

And what did you learn?

And what did you learn?

* Almost everyone hates their carrier and a high percentage say they are going to switch at the next opportunity. Sprint is the worst these days. The carriers must be really desperate to find something--*anything*--that will reduce this churn, short of getting into a price war (which is what Sprint is resorting to).
* BlackBerry users complain about their devices more than Treo users. There are also more BlackBerry users that are positively passionate about their BBs, but both of these could be a reflection of the fact that there are a lot more BB users out there. Hard to conclude.
* People who use smart devices as the vendor intended (i.e. for data) complain more, but that doesn't mean they'd go back to using a cheaper phone.
* Treos are more often the business phone that users choose, BlackBerries are the business phone that IT departments choose
* Motorola Q users like how their phone looks, but they either have very low expectations or they live in worlds of private pain. Few IT departments issue the Q: it's mostly self-inflicted.
* Business people have love-hate relationships with mobile email
* American business people don't "get" text messaging, while their European counterparts don't "get" push email
* BlackBerry users play a lot more games than you'd think despite the fact that the platform sucks for games as compared to Palm and WM.
* A very large number of people don't bother synchronizing with their PC anymore
* A surprising number of people carry two mobile phones (especially BlackBerry owners)
* Very few people are doctrinaire about their mobile OS or phone vendor, but they hang on to old phones because they think it'll be a pain to switch and move their stuff over
* There are a lot of Treo 600s out there
* Most business users are not mobile phone enthusiasts. Even fewer are power-users. A fair number of smartphone users have one application that they've downloaded and care about--if I had to venture a rough guess, maybe 1 in 3.
* Business travelers *are* fanatical about reducing how much they have to lug around and the laptop is a major pain point. Many have tried to do trips with a smartphone and no laptop, and some do this pretty often.
* If you're going to carry a laptop, you'd darned well better be able to play games on it. On planes, at least, people use their laptops more for playing games than getting work done.
* Some people watch DVDs on their laptops, but more movie watchers carry dedicated devices these days.
* Same with music: most people who listen to music on a plane still use an iPod, not a phone, still less a laptop. Seems like a contradiction to the "carry less stuff" idea, but people seem to want (or at least *understand*) dedicated devices.
* I've never seen anyone pair a PDA with a phone. There are still a good many PDAs out there, though.

In general, watching people use devices in airports and airplanes has made me skeptical that "convergence" down to a single device is happening to a significant degree, despite the fact that people wish they could reduce the weight and bulk of the stuff they travel with.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com/blog

Oh the pain they are in for!!

Then again, they might experience data loss as a sense of relief.

Paradoxical, but true.

Beersy's actually right about this (a rare occurrence, these days).

Most power users do fine without HotSyncing. It's easy to load new apps via an SD card reader, and by using apps like Resco Backup and BackupMan, hotsyncing can easily become redundant - unless users NEED to update desktop apps with their PDA data via the hotsync conduits.

TVoR

First the iPhone battery life announcement and now this... His Steveness (Jobs) is the Undisputed Master of Media Manipulation (UMMM)

And I predict Palm will be amateurishly trying to do the same, except since they weren't able to get the software they wanted for the FOOLeo concept done in time they'll mainly have to stick to introducing 3rd party add-on applictions for their "applicationless" CRAPTOP:

http://www.palminfocenter.com/comments/9005/#133972

Is the FOOLeo shipping with ANY software??? W T F???
The_Voice_of_Reason @ 6/19/2007 11:03:52 AM #

So once again Palm is hoping developers will do their work for them and make all of the software the device needs. Well guess what: no one is going to be dumb enough to spend $500 on a FOOLeo and then go out and spend HUNDREDS MORE buying software Palm should have bundled for free:

PIM apps
Financial app
VNC app
FTP app
File manager
Zip utility
Backup utility
Photo viewer/editor
Database app
Video player
MP3 player
Word-compatible document editor*
Excel-compatible spreadsheet editor*

etc., etc

TVoR

* Does the included FOOLeo software edit + save MS Office applications in their native format?

As for other apps -- look at the Application Launcher picture at http://www.palminfocenter.com/news/9439/palm-foleo-hands-on-gallery/. You'll see that File Manager and Photo Viewer are already included on the device.

As for other apps -- look at the Application Launcher picture at http://www.palminfocenter.com/news/9439/palm-foleo-hands-on-gallery/. You'll see that File Manager and Photo Viewer are already included on the device.

Thanks for the update, Ben. But what other apps are included?

You guys really need to rethink how the FOOLeo is being positioned and also need to actually SHOW people the device in action to demonstrate its (potential) practical advantages.

TVoR

I mean why don't you shut up about how bad it is until it actually ships or you've at least used one before. You really seem to have some kind of sinister agenda the way you present yourself around here.

need to actually SHOW people the device in action

Amen to that.

Video #1:
Two people sitting down to a meeting where someone else is starting to speak. One starts to power up a Windows laptop while the other flips open her Foleo and starts taking down a note immediately. The Foleo user fires off an email to her assistant. As she starts to make a point in the meeting her Treo tells her she has a response. She hits the sync button and opens the attached document while she is speaking, quoting some information from the document to the meeting attendees. Then she turns the Foleo around and shows everyone a colorful PowerPoint graph that illustrates her point. The video ends with the Windows boot-up jingle and a sheepish look on the face of the laptop's owner.

Video #2:
Two business people are seated on a plane waiting for their flight to pull away from the gate. They each get notification of an incoming email on their mobile--one on his BlackBerry, the other on his Treo. Cut to a split screen showing the two devices and the open emails, which come from two different senders but say the same thing: "Zamco is ready to pick the vendor. The bid has to go out NOW!" The BlackBerry stands up to pull a heavy laptop bag from the overhead compartment, which swings down and whacks an attractive woman seated across the aisle from him. The Treo user slips his Foleo out of a small bag under his seat and it comes to life as he opens it on his tray table. He opens a Word document and an Excel spreadsheet, changes a date on one each, and sends them both as email attachments to the prospective client. The announcement comes over the PA that all electronic devices need to be turned off and stowed, which the Foleo owner accomplishes by just snapping his Foleo shut and slipping it back in his bag. The guy with the chunky laptop looks apologetically up at a surly flight attendant and says "ok, I'm turning it off." The screen still shows the Windows XP logo when he closes the lid. As he grunts to stow the bag back in the overhead bin the Windows boot-up jingle plays from inside the bag. The flight attendant and the woman seated across the aisle both give him another dirty look. The Foleo owner smiles and stretches out a hand as his competitor sits back down and buckles up.

Hopefully there are some good ad spots in the works, but since Palm has pre-announced, I think they need stuff like this on Palm.com (and YouTube) now, not at launch time.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com/blog

Moss was absolutely incredulous!!! Funny stuff!!!

--

[Foleo Won't do flash video, including YouTube.]

Mossberg: "Let me get this straight. It won't do the hottest thing on the Web?"

Hawkins: "Let me be clear: it will do it, but not well."

Mossberg: "When?"

Hawkins: "UHHH...In the future."

Hawkins: "If I could do it again, I'd put a faster processor in here."

Mossberg: "There are laptops that are $499, there are laptops that are 10-inchers, why this?"

Hawkins: "Those little ones aren't the cheap ones. We're going after the one-button access to the experience. This is a Linux machine with long battery life, that people will write apps for. Foleo is simple and fun."

Probably not for a couple years...when it's ready to be reviewed...

Windows boot up time??? ever hear of sleep mode??? my notebook awakes in about 2 seconds and is small/light enough to tuck in a small carry on bag.

Docs To Go??? Anyone who would risk editing and then sending an Office doc formal important business proposal on Docs To Go deserves to have the document formats and formulas all f***ed up and thus lose the deal due to mess it creates.

And what about SYNC-TIME for the Fooleo to Sync with the Treo??? This would surely take some time depending on email, docs, PIM (if it can do it), load. What if it's still syncing and the flight attendant asks you to shut down. What will the Fooleo do when you have to close the lid mid-sync????? Answer: you'll be the Fool.

No thanks, I'd rather have a REAL laptop with a wireless cellular card where i can have REAL Office Docs editing/creation, INSTANT and SINGULAR docs/PIM/etc to email send/receive (no multiple steps/synching required), not to mention all of the other millions of things that a real laptop can do vs. the fooleo.

You can fool the customer ONCE but NOT TWICE.

You may want to forward that test case to His Mossberg Hisself for when he DOES do a review - if ever:

-- walt@allthingsd.com

Yeah, that's probably an assistant but at least ya MIGHT be able to get past it to The Man.

http://tinyurl.com/2gap8d
http://tinyurl.com/2abqqv

Not. News.

Next!

>>>I mean why don't you shut up about how bad it is until it actually ships or you've at least used one before. You really seem to have some kind of sinister agenda the way you present yourself around here.

Oh look. PIC has a brand-new reader.

ROTFLMAO.

Video #2:
[SNIP]

Beersy, I almost sprayed my lunch over my monitor laughing at your bogus ad storylines. Are you SURE you have never worked on Madison Avenue? Don't give up the day job (you do have one, don't you?). Too bad these situations you highlight are completely B.S. - anyone using a Real Windows® laptop would just have it in suspend mode and capable of awakening within a few seconds. And do we know with any certainty how fast the syncing process occurs with the FOOLeo? If it's anything like the IR syncing with (one of my favorites) RecoX, prepare to wait... wait... wait while the flight attendant glares at you and then the (Palm) Pilot finally comes back and biotchslaps you (even more) senseless!

Hopefully there are some good ad spots in the works, but since Palm has pre-announced, I think they need stuff like this on Palm.com (and YouTube) now, not at launch time.

Looks like they spent more time on their FOOLeo website ads than they did on the Treo 700p bugfixes...

TVoR

People who use laptops to travel (i.e. the Foleo's target market) know these things.

Glad you liked my ad spots, though. They maybe unrealistic in some respects, but when did you ever see a TV ad for a technology product that wasn't? The point is not to faithfully record a laboratory bench test, it's to show what Foleo is good for. And I totally agree with you that Palm has not done a very good job of this to date.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: that, who else still finds their estimate incredibly optimistic? Palm say 300 hours standby time with the Treo 680, and we all know how far from the truth that is. iPhone is very thin, has a bigger screen, lots of fancy sensors and wifi, and yet they claim 250 hours standby?

Ah. But wait. You'll have to turn some of that fancy technology off if you want to reach those estimates. If you check out Apple's testing methodology, you'll note that:

1) The wifi snooper is always turned off (and the auto-switching between wifi and cellular was one of the most appealing things about it).
2) In the internet tests, the Auto-Brightness sensor was deactivated.
3) Call Forwarding was turned on in every test.

And the bugger isn't removable either. Got a dud? No easy replacements for you...

Tim
I apologise for any and all emoticons that appear in my posts. You may shoot them on sight.
Treo 270 ---> Treo 650 ---> Crimson Treo 680

The terminology for the different "resting states" varies, Beersy. Suspend = Standby:

V=http://www-307.ibm.com/pc/support/site.wss/document.do?lndocid=MIGR-50944#Pows

http://www-307.ibm.com/pc/support/site.wss/document.do?lndocid=MIGR-50944

http://www-307.ibm.com/pc/support/site.wss/MIGR-54305.html

And the bugger isn't removable either. Got a dud? No easy replacements for you...

Apparently the iElectrons in the iBattery are iStronger. Do you DARE doubt His Steveness? Infidel! You will pay for your treachery.

TVoR

The terminology for the different "resting states" varies, Beersy. Suspend = Standby

Good, so we're agreed on everything I said but the first sentence. Glad we're clear on which of us was full of BS. ;)

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com/blog

If that's what you need to believe in order to keep on living, who am I to destroy your world?

TVoR

P.S. I accept your apology. Baby steps, Beersy. Baby steps. Well done. Tomorrow's lesson: "How to stop being sniveling Palm Apologist in five easy steps". can please make sure you read Professor Kirvin's chapter prior to the lesson.

Y'know, I've been trying to write an editorial for PIC on the Foleo ever since it was announced. The problem is that I have such mixed feelings on it, I can't actually seem to make any real points and it's just incoherent rambling. There are so many "buts": Foleo's form factor is great compared to the bulk of notebooks in its price range, but it doesn't let you do even half as much; Foleo has given us a new mobile operating system with huge potential, but Palm are once again leaving all the good stuff to the third-party devs; Foleo is open to those same third party devs, but there's no guarantee that they will flock to it the way they did to Palm's PDAs.

I'm trying hard to see Foleo's good points, but Palm haven't been helping. TVoR is right on the money - it needs to be marketed a helluva lot better, and it needs a better software package.

Apparently the iElectrons in the iBattery are iStronger. Do you DARE doubt His Steveness? Infidel! You will pay for your treachery.

Obligatory Futurama quote:
Melllvar: (thundering) I am not an effect! You doubt my power?!

Bender: (dismissive) I do.

Melllvar electrocutes Welshy.

Tim
I apologise for any and all emoticons that appear in my posts. You may shoot them on sight.
Treo 270 ---> Treo 650 ---> Crimson Treo 680

OMG!!! ROTFHAMI!!!!

Add $50 to get the battery that gives you 5 hrs of use
Add $219 for a wireless broadband card, since the carrier won't let you tether it to your phone
Add $80/mo to your wireless plan so you can use the broadband card ($960/yr)

Then:
Add 3.8 lbs (vs. Foleo)
Add another .5 lbs for the A/C adapter (Foleo's is tiny, like your Treo's)

And the Dell still doesn't come with MS Office. If you want to edit office docs like you said you did you better add another $279 (a 37% savings! Woo hoo!)

So now your "cheap" Dell laptop is $1048 up front and $80/mo so you can do the same wireless email and office document editing that you can with a Foleo, for one-third the weight.

No doubt a lot of folks really need a laptop. But it's not at all obvious to me that these "cheap" laptops are either as cheap or as functional for many others as a Foleo.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com/blog

No doubt a lot of folks really need a laptop. But it's not at all obvious to me that these "cheap" laptops are either as cheap or as functional for many others as a Foleo.

- How about first we wait to see if the FOOLeo REALLY has 5 hour battery life.
- Then get a $30/month Sprint SERO plan for 500 anytime minutes, unlimited nights + weekends, free long distance, free roaming onto Verizon and FREE "UNLIMITED" EVDO ACCESS. If you needed cellphone service anyway then EVDO is basically "free".
- Add $125/3 = $42 for a shared "student" license of Microsoft Office (comes with 3 licenses).
- Avoid the extra $200 or so in software the FOOLeo will likely need to make it (barely) functional
- Avoid headaches of not having any software to use.

What are the totals now, Beersy?

Try again, Bubba.

TVoR

If you needed cellphone service anyway then EVDO is basically "free".

Oh really? So Sprint is now fine with you tethering your laptop to your cell so you can stream all your YouTube? When did this happen? 40 minutes ago inside your brain? Or did you mean that I should buy the wireless card for the laptop and activate it with Sprint, which requires an additional plan? Like I described above?

Either way your solution still costs hundreds of dollars more and weighs three times as much. Am I missing something? Do you really think *everyone* is happy to pay this much and lug this much around just so they can run iTunes or watch DVDs? Or are you just shoveling crap that even you don't believe because you're now backed into a corner by some simple facts?

I'm guessing the latter because I don't think you're that dumb.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com/blog

I'm guessing the latter because I don't think you're that dumb.

Hmmmm... I had over 500 M