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Comments on: Newsweek on Palm's New Reach

Palm Pre NewsweekEver since Palm's historical announcement in Las Vegas last week, the web has been abuzz with a flurry of Palm-related news articles, commentaries, and predictions. While PIC will be taking a closer look later in the week at some of the most prescient articles making the rounds online, a piece by Newsweek entitled "Palm's New Reach" deserves to be singled out for discussion.

Written by Dan Lyons, most notable for his former alias as "Fake Steve Jobs", the Newsweek piece is surprisingly thoughtful and contains a good bit of additional background information not seen in any of the articles posted on other sites since Palm's Pre and WebOS announcement last Thursday.

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Has to rank right up there as...

SeldomVisitor @ 1/15/2009 11:26:16 AM # Q
...one of the most successful "launches" of vaporware yet!

RE: Has to rank right up there as...
hkklife @ 1/15/2009 12:04:43 PM # Q
SV;
I assume you are defining "Vaporware" in this sense as a product that never reaches the market and/or customers' hands? As in "There are thousands in a warehouse somewhere but we're gonna cancel the launch and bury 'em in a landfill next to unsold Atari ET cartridges" ?

This is vs. the traditional meaning of "vaporware" as something that is announced but never actually seen in use and/or in the flesh like...Cobalt, Copland, ALP etc?

What exactly are you prediction/envisioning/suggesting here? Palm pulling the plug on the Pre at the 11th hour ala the Fooleo in order to tweak the hardware? Or the Pre shipping with Garnet with the Linux-based version coming "later"? Or the Pre simply never materializing?


Pilot 1000->Pilot 5000->PalmPilot Pro->IIIe->Vx->m505->T|T->T|T2->T|C->T|T3->T|T5->Zodiac 2->TX->Verizon Treo 700P->Verizon Treo 755p->?

RE: Has to rank right up there as...
mikecane @ 1/15/2009 12:41:18 PM # Q
Look, you can have a Pre in your frikkin HAND and WAVE it in front of SV's puss and he'd STILL wail "Vaporware!"

He is becoming a self-inflicted joke now.

RE: Has to rank right up there as...
hkklife @ 1/15/2009 12:55:56 PM # Q
While it's true we didn't get the hands-on fondling time we were hoping for, I did lay a wee finger on the Pre for an all-too-brief moment. It's VERY real and looks VERY finalized and ready for production.

To kill it at this stage of the game would be corporate suicide for Palm. It's far from perfect, sure, but it's got the market whipped up again over Palm in exactly the way Colligan hinted at a few months ago when he gave that nebulous comment about "starting to see some buzz".

While I don't want to speak for anyone else, I think it's definitely safe to say that I am less "sold" on the device than Ryan or Tim at this stage of the game (because I can be very curmudgeonly and set in my ways about certain things, such as being in Verizon, and having SD cards, styli, 5-way navigators, and Hotsyncs) but there's no questioning the fact that Palm has some tangibly good concepts going on amongst the smoke & mirrors and you canot question the device's sleekness and aesthetic appeal. If they just wouldn't cheap out on the hardware so much...


Pilot 1000->Pilot 5000->PalmPilot Pro->IIIe->Vx->m505->T|T->T|T2->T|C->T|T3->T|T5->Zodiac 2->TX->Verizon Treo 700P->Verizon Treo 755p->?

RE: Has to rank right up there as...
freakout @ 1/15/2009 12:56:39 PM # Q
He is becoming a self-inflicted joke now.

What do you mean, now?

RE: Has to rank right up there as...
SeldomVisitor @ 1/15/2009 1:04:25 PM # Q
The personal attacks are cute.

The Pre is vaporware.

When it actually ships, it become real.

RE: Has to rank right up there as...
freakout @ 1/15/2009 1:28:00 PM # Q
^^ Right. So the device that the tech press played with and documented at CES is imaginary, and Palm will never release it?

Wikipedia defines vaporware as:

Vaporware is a term used to describe a software or hardware product that is announced by a developer well in advance of release, but which then fails to emerge after having well exceeded the period of development time that was initially claimed or would normally be expected for the development cycle of a similar product.

So going by that, Pre becomes vaporware if, say, it doesn't come out by the end of the year (as that would be having "well exceeded" the "first half '09" release schedule).

In other words: not vaporware.


RE: Has to rank right up there as...
freakout @ 1/15/2009 1:28:54 PM # Q
^^ Right. So the device that the tech press played with and documented at CES is imaginary, and Palm will never release it?

Wikipedia defines vaporware as:

Vaporware is a term used to describe a software or hardware product that is announced by a developer well in advance of release, but which then fails to emerge after having well exceeded the period of development time that was initially claimed or would normally be expected for the development cycle of a similar product.

So going by that, Pre becomes vaporware if, say, it doesn't come out by the end of the year (as that would be having "well exceeded" the "first half '09" release schedule).

In other words: not vaporware.

RE: Has to rank right up there as...
mikecane @ 1/15/2009 4:14:11 PM # Q
Look at that. You got him so worked up, he posted TWICE!

Pre is as much vaporware as the iPhone.

RE: Has to rank right up there as...
sbono13 @ 1/15/2009 4:14:16 PM # Q
"When it actually ships, it become real."

By this strange and loose definition, all launches are for vaporware until they are not. I can't remember the last time there was a launch event for any device that was already shipping. Maybe Apple did an ipod event once where the devices were available in apple stories immediately afterwards. But definitely the exception to the rule.

RE: Has to rank right up there as...
SeldomVisitor @ 1/15/2009 4:30:56 PM # Q
> ...all launches are for vaporware until they are not...

I see nothing wrong with that POV.

RE: Has to rank right up there as...
mikecane @ 1/15/2009 4:32:12 PM # Q
It was for the iPod Shuffle. Famously, a nearby Apple Store has a cache in stock and people literally *ran* from the announcement to go buy them. Geez!

RE: Has to rank right up there as...
LiveFaith @ 1/15/2009 6:16:31 PM # Q
Wasn't the iPhone vaporware when Job's announced and the mobile world came to a screeching halt? So, nothing to really see here it seems.

Pat Horne
RE: Has to rank right up there as...
twrock @ 1/15/2009 6:47:21 PM # Q
Look, you can have a Pre in your frikkin HAND and WAVE it in front of SV's puss and he'd STILL wail "Vaporware!"

He is becoming a self-inflicted joke now.


SV's pattern is well established. You shouldn't expect anything different.

BTW, SV, what Palm device are you using right now? Do you plan to upgrade to the Pre when it becomes "real"? Is there even a slight possibility that you will use a Palm device in the future? Inquiring minds want to know!


"twrock is infamous around these parts"
(from my profile over at Brighthand due to my negative 62 rep points rating)

RE: Has to rank right up there as...
Gekko @ 1/16/2009 8:48:56 AM # Q
>BTW, SV, what Palm device are you using right now? Do you plan to upgrade to the Pre when it becomes "real"? Is there even a slight possibility that you will use a Palm device in the future? Inquiring minds want to know!

as bizarre as it sounds, i don't think he uses one.



RE: Has to rank right up there as...
hkklife @ 1/16/2009 9:37:47 AM # Q
He DID have a IIIse back in '98 or '99 or so but apparently became very upset over that device's ability to have OS upgrades (ie no flashable OS ROM space) despite being Palm's "budget" device at the time. So I think he stuck it in a drawer and has been a Palm-watcher and a Palm-pessimist but not a Palm OS-user ever since.

Again, this is a rather hazy recollection from something he posted ages ago to PIC so I may be fairly off in this story and so apologize if I'm terribly off.



Pilot 1000->Pilot 5000->PalmPilot Pro->IIIe->Vx->m505->T|T->T|T2->T|C->T|T3->T|T5->Zodiac 2->TX->Verizon Treo 700P->Verizon Treo 755p->?

RE: Has to rank right up there as...
SeldomVisitor @ 1/16/2009 9:44:47 AM # Q
> ...apologize if I'm terribly off.

Apology accepted.

RE: Has to rank right up there as...
sbono13 @ 1/16/2009 9:58:14 AM # Q
So in your usage, "vaporware" is not intended to denigrate as much as to describe a device's stage in it's launch sequence. We can all agree that the Pre is currently between announcement and shipment, ie, "vaporware" in your mind.

RE: Has to rank right up there as...
SeldomVisitor @ 1/16/2009 10:09:26 AM # Q
Correct, with a slight mod - "vaporware" is incomplete pre-actual-launch. The Pre is a beta device.

The Fooleo, of course, was the epitome of vaporware - big splashy intro, thousands of posts/articles/gushes web-wide, no launch at all.

RE: Has to rank right up there as...
TooMuch @ 1/16/2009 11:21:33 AM # Q
Based on his own standards of reality...SV is vaporware.

RE: Has to rank right up there as...
hkklife @ 1/16/2009 12:08:19 PM # Q
Ah, SV, my aging memory thought you had a III SE instead of a regular Palm III. My apologies once again:

http://www.palminfocenter.com/comments/7495/#144418

P.S. My compliments also to you for kinda-envisioning back in August at least a chunk of the fundamental Pre concept--easy to move data on/off the device (either to the cloud wirelessly or via drag'n drop via USB mass storage drive capability)

Pilot 1000->Pilot 5000->PalmPilot Pro->IIIe->Vx->m505->T|T->T|T2->T|C->T|T3->T|T5->Zodiac 2->TX->Verizon Treo 700P->Verizon Treo 755p->?

RE: Has to rank right up there as...
PacManFoo @ 1/16/2009 1:29:04 PM # Q
The Pre works AWSOME with my Foleo!

The last known classic PDA user.
RE: Has to rank right up there as...
freakout @ 1/16/2009 2:50:34 PM # Q
Based on his own standards of reality...SV is vaporware.

Lol. His posts are certainly vapid...

RE: Has to rank right up there as...
sbono13 @ 1/16/2009 2:58:03 PM # Q
"The Pre is a beta device."

Agreed, but it's a helluva lot farther along than anyone anticipated. "Vaporware" is better than "slideware," which is what I believe the skeptics expected.


RE: Has to rank right up there as...
twrock @ 1/16/2009 4:26:23 PM # Q
as bizarre as it sounds, i don't think he uses one.

Yep, that is my point in asking him. I find it quite funny that he doesn't give a simple answer. Seems strange to me to spend such a large amount of time focused on a company and its products when you don't use them and have no intention of using them. Some kind of weird obsession? Whatever it is, it seems to color all of his posts pretty heavily. "Anti-fanboy".


"twrock is infamous around these parts"
(from my profile over at Brighthand due to my negative 62 rep points rating)
RE: Has to rank right up there as...
NuShrike @ 1/18/2009 7:01:24 PM # Q
Snapdragon is vaporware. So is Duke Nukem Forever, Foleo, Copland, Tesla Roadster, Cobalt, Chevy Volt, hydrogen (battery) powered cars (Bush dropped hybrid development for hydrogen 8 years ago).

Pre has yet to qualify as vaporware.

Palm III -> Sony NR610C -> Sony NR70 -> Sony NX80 -> Palm T|X -> HTC Kaiser -> HTC Fuze

RE: Has to rank right up there as...
AdamaDBrown @ 1/18/2009 10:02:24 PM # Q
The Tesla Roadster is available on the market. They've delivered over a hundred to buyers, and are planning to hit 40 per week delivered by March.

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Some thoughts

philpalm @ 1/15/2009 11:58:25 AM # Q
With a flashbulb, the Pre camera is naturally better than an IPhone. Though having a spare (removable) battery is also a very good idea for those who are photocrazy...

I also noticed that the possibility of a Foleo type companion with the Pre may or maynot be an alternative to a PDA (that uses Web OS).

Sure there is a possibility of the Pre being vaporware but remember Palm originally came after Apple's attempt of a PDA, Newton. Being less bloated is a good thing....

RE: Some thoughts
LiveFaith @ 1/15/2009 6:20:35 PM # Q
Maybe the iPhone is bloated, but I must say that thing still runs circles around anything that I've ever seen. Makes my Treo 680 look like some sort of archeological artifact from the stone age. Not to mention we have no real assurance that Apple will not "leapfrog" the Pre before it ever ships.

Pat Horne
RE: Some thoughts
jca666us @ 1/16/2009 5:38:45 AM # Q
Aside from biased comparisons on this site, I'd say Pre/Iphone advantages fall out like this:

Pre:
Multitasking better exposed in the UI
A better camera
A physical keyboard - for those who like those things

Iphone:
Better hardware and software ecosystem
A real SDK - not just javascript/css/html web apps

The Pre is a compelling piece of hardware, as long as Palm doesn't go cheap on the hardware (like they have in the past) and doesn't release a bug-ridden device without timely updates.

Apple has consistently updated the OS on the iphone, and added new features (itunes, app store, etc.)

While I doubt Apple will leapfrog the Pre in a few months, it would be insane to assume that Apple doesn't have newer stuff in their labs.

However based on their track record, I assume they will eventually release an "iphone 3.0" - my prediction is June.

RE: Some thoughts
mikecane @ 1/16/2009 9:23:26 AM # Q
>>>it would be insane to assume that Apple doesn't have newer stuff in their labs.

Apple also owns a chipmaker now and will no doubt custom-design a killer CPU that no other cellphone can match for power-vs-battery life.

Reply to this comment

The Pre is exciting, BUT...

CADJedi @ 1/15/2009 12:47:06 PM # Q
the Pre is exciting, but I don't understand some of the decisions Palm has made. It seems like Palm is always pushing its customers to accept some kind of compromise. Compromises that, at least on their surface, seem silly.

I really like the Pre's hardware, its design, its gui are all very exciting. I'm poised and excited to buy one... I plan on being first in line... then I start learning of what they are leaving out and now I'm either not going to buy one, or I am at least going to wait till the second version.

Now why would Palm do that? Why would they take a loyal customer (since 1997) and push me away instead of making the decision to upgrade a no brainer!

Here's what I mean...

1. I can't live with only 8GB of storage. Currently I use several SD cards with my Centro to accommodate all the databases, audio files, video files, pictures, spreadsheets, catalogs, etc. Now I have to "step down" and have less memory in order to use the new cutting edge device? This is just silly! My kids use 16GB cards in their $50 LG phones to handles all their music files. Its silly to think only a tiny minority of "power users" will want expandable memory and more that 8GB. just silly.

2. The Palm Desktop... I understand the marketing value of hyping the "cloud concept". And perhaps I may want to go that route someday, but currently I don't. Why force me into a new and underdeveloped, untested paradigm? Why not give me the choice of still syncing with one desktop/laptop computer and still leveraging the usefulness of the Palm Desktop? I like the Desktop, it does exactly what I want and in the way I want to do it. Its one of the most used applications on my laptop. It just seems sill for Palm to force me away from one of it existing products that I really like and into competitors products like Google Calender that are underpowered and inconvenient. Why? just silly.

3. Backward Compatibility. I have hundreds of dollars invested in Palm OS apps. I have been able to make my Palm Centro do all kinds of things that I need and use everyday. I can do things that make my iPhone friends jealous. I realize Palm wants to start fresh but why turn your back on a whole plethora of applications that could make your device stronger? Whay must your loyal customers not only shell out hundreds to by the new Palm device but also pay hundreds to replace all your old software? Or worse yet, the software I rely on every day may not even be available on the Pre because they have burnt their developers twice already. This is just silly, why doesn't Palm leverage the fact that there are great Palm OS database out their, robust calculators, custom widgets, Bibles, Books, dictionaries, etc. Why make your users wait years to get a shiny new slick device then poke them in the eye before they even can buy it. Just silly.


It just seems like Palm included so much good stuff in their new device and stopped just short of making it an easy decision for their existing customers. People have trash talked Palm for years, loyal customers have gutted it out and stuck with the platform and it seems like we get nothing for our loyalty.

oh well.

Eek



RE: The Pre is exciting, BUT...
Piero @ 1/15/2009 1:34:25 PM # Q
You're not alone. A lot of people have been rantin lot of people have been ranting about the lack of backward compatibility (me included and will continue to do do) It doesn't make sense to me to buy that phone now that it has no backward compatibility. I'll either wait for one that supports it or buy a cheaper one with a good camera an nice reception and continue using my palm. We had so much time since palm began until now..... that plus being one of the earliest BEST working systems that you can find almost any app and a lot for free. I can recall at least 3 of them that make other phone users jealous too.... only ported for palmos and will not release any other kind I'M SURE ABOUT this and they're apps for everyday MUST USE! to me.

RE: The Pre is exciting, BUT...
xImtc @ 1/15/2009 2:52:07 PM # Q
I have a relatively short list of must-dos. Removable storage is great, but not one of them. A stylus is even better, but also not one of them. Cool games like Edge and The Legend and Warfare Inc. are awesome, but Tetris and solitaire'll do. BUT:

* I need GSM, preferably T-Mobile, but I'll switch to AT&T if necessary. I don't think I can be talked into going Sprint.

* I need a Rhapsody compatible music player. I don't pirate music, and I can't imagine *buying* it any more when I can simply have it on-demand. If it was Rhapsody on the handset compatible, all the better!

* I need a reasonably powerful media player like CorePlayer for video.

* I need to be able to open MS Word and Excel documents, and PDFs. Editing would be even better. While I can do PowerPoint on my Nokia E71, I never have.

What are the odds that any of these features are available on a Pre-like device soon? I gave up my Treo 680 for an E71 recently, and while the phone is much nicer and can do many more things, it is totally missing the Zen of my Palm, and I miss the Zen tremendously. WebOs looks to have Zen all over the place, but can it do the things it needs to? Does anyone outside of Palm even know?

RE: The Pre is exciting, BUT...
LiveFaith @ 1/15/2009 6:38:02 PM # Q
* I need GSM, ...
Me too. EdC said it's Sprint INITIALLY. Engadget quoted Palm as saying a 60 day exclusive. That's really some good time to reduce the EAT (Early Adopters Tax) on the GSM. Europe getting a GSM in same quoted time frame as Sprint. 1st half 2009.


* I need Rhapsody compatible ...
I doubt Palm, or anybody else, is going to write clients for all the music services. Real should do it for WebOS. Surely they have a way to manually get the DRM audio over to that "cavernous" 8GB.


* I need ... like CorePlayer ...
Plenty of Youtube vids showing smooth video playing on the Pre. TI OMAP 3430 eats graphics for breakfast and has 2D / 3D accels.


* I need ... documents ...
DataViz is on the scene and will almost certainly be in ROM at launch. I wish another would do the honors, but DataViz seems to be the last man standing.


That said, I am disappointed in the lack of SD, backward compats, and lack of assurance for desktop sync. Is it me or does the phone look like cheap slick plastic. What ever happened to the glory days of the absolutely georgeous Palm V? Metal would be nice, bit I know that radios don't give it a lotta love. That said, I would probably slap the cash on ATTs table tommorrow if the Pre were market ready.

Pat Horne

RE: The Pre is exciting, BUT...
xImtc @ 1/16/2009 7:04:43 AM # Q

* I need Rhapsody compatible ...
I doubt Palm, or anybody else, is going to write clients for all the music services. Real should do it for Web.

AFAIK, there's only one standard in use for DRM music (not standard as in protocol, standard as in can work on more than one category of device unlike an iPod or Zune) and that's Microsoft's "Plays for Sure." Rhapsody, the now deceased Yahoo! Music, Napster, MTV, and all the rest of the bit players use this protocol. My 680 supported it with PocketTunes, my E71 supports it out of the box. We know the Pre supports Windows Media, but does it support encrypted Windows Media?

As for DataViz, you don't like Documents to Go? What's better?

RE: The Pre is exciting, BUT...
mikecane @ 1/16/2009 9:21:03 AM # Q
>>>DataViz is on the scene and will almost certainly be in ROM at launch.

Hell no, don't plop that crap in ROM! Throw it on the accompanying CD (if any). I want nothing to do with that crap - including having to see it's damned icon taking up space in the Launcher.

RE: The Pre is exciting, BUT...
AdamaDBrown @ 1/16/2009 11:43:50 AM # Q
60 days seems like a very unusual time period for an exclusive. Typically it's either three or six months.

RE: The Pre is exciting, BUT...
cgk @ 1/16/2009 2:12:53 PM # Q
Palm OS users are just going to have to accept that they figure absolute nowhere in this brave new world. The company is betting that the market share it can capture will far exceed pissed off Palm OSers who will not buy the product.

That's why there is no SD card, no desktop sync, no backwards app compatibility - because it's irrelevant to palm - they are playing for bigger stakes.



RE: The Pre is exciting, BUT...
mikecane @ 1/16/2009 2:49:23 PM # Q
>>>because it's irrelevant to palm - they are playing for bigger stakes.

Oh yeah?

I once lived in a small city. The race for Mayor was ferocious. I mean, we expected blood in the streets.

Two days before the election, a local paper ridiculed one of the candidates because he had a beard, somehow indicating he wasn't "one of the people" and somehow stuck-up.

The day before the election, that candidate was on a street corner - WITHOUT his beard.

Given the toilet that the economy is being flushed down, Palm could see itself out on a street corner begging for buyers - with StyleTap *included in ROM* as a very last-minute thing.

And, like the guy who took off his beard, it might actually work *against* them.

RE: The Pre is exciting, BUT...
rpa @ 1/17/2009 5:19:58 AM # Q
Has Palm confirmed the lack of desktop sync compatibility? Sync'ing with Outlook was always one of Palm's best features.
RE: The Pre is exciting, BUT...
AdamaDBrown @ 1/17/2009 4:26:16 PM # Q
rpa, it's confirmed that the Pre does not include desktop sync.

RE: The Pre is exciting, BUT...
twrock @ 1/17/2009 4:35:28 PM # Q
Hmm, that's not good news. But I was just thinking that I haven't done a hotsync in probably two weeks or so. I guess I'm slowly moving toward a work world dominated by my information either being on the web and/or on my handheld device. But, part of why I don't hotsync nearly as much anymore is that I feel comfortable relying on my SD card backup. What's that? The Pre doesn't have any external memory? Hmm......


"twrock is infamous around these parts"
(from my profile over at Brighthand due to my negative 62 rep points rating)
RE: The Pre is exciting, BUT...
Gekko @ 1/17/2009 4:43:44 PM # Q
>rpa, it's confirmed that the Pre does not include desktop sync.

link?

RE: The Pre is exciting, BUT...
freakout @ 1/17/2009 4:46:08 PM # Q
Has Palm confirmed the lack of desktop sync compatibility? Sync'ing with Outlook was always one of Palm's best features.

Chapura's listing on the slide of software partners suggests Outlook sync is still going to be in there somewhere. Although that's cold comfort to folks such as myself who despise Outlook...

RE: The Pre is exciting, BUT...
mikecane @ 1/17/2009 4:54:00 PM # Q
I wouldn't say ANYTHING is frikkin confirmed at this point.

The hardware can still be revised (the lip people noted that gets in the way).

The software is DEFINITELY going to have stuff added to it. I am eejit enough to think SOMEONE at Palm is going to notice that TWITTER should be added to the messaging feature (where AIM, SMS, etc, reside).

And I think contrary to a Comment posted months ago, Palm now has a REAL interest in the chatter going on about the Pre, in order to judge what's needed to guarantee - as much as it's possible - a home run.

RE: The Pre is exciting, BUT...
Gekko @ 1/17/2009 5:11:13 PM # Q

But don't count the desktop element out yet. I called Palm, which responded that it's not commenting yet on the software end, but there might be more news closer to launch time.

Sounds to us like there might be some desktop or laptop client software involved, but is it HotSync, Palm Desktop, or some other application to work with Synergy? Our guess is the latter, but we can't be sure yet.

http://news.cnet.com/8301-17938_105-10142272-1.html



RE: The Pre is exciting, BUT...
twrock @ 1/17/2009 9:31:18 PM # Q
>rpa, it's confirmed that the Pre does not include desktop sync.

link?

Good point. And Adama, you have been wrong before. Pointing that out over at Brighthand is what got me that "infamous" rating. (Good thing there's no rating system here; half the people wouldn't be able to post any more.)


"twrock is infamous around these parts"
(from my profile over at Brighthand due to my negative 62 rep points rating)

RE: The Pre is exciting, BUT...
AdamaDBrown @ 1/18/2009 2:28:52 PM # Q
"The device makes use of the cloud based services model and no desktop sync is provided [5]."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palm_Pre#Sync

http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20090111-of-clouds-palms-webos-and-cutting-the-cord.html

RE: The Pre is exciting, BUT...
Gekko @ 1/18/2009 3:05:13 PM # Q

don't bet the farm on info from wikipedia, silly.

RE: The Pre is exciting, BUT...
AdamaDBrown @ 1/18/2009 9:52:24 PM # Q
The Wikipedia references back to the interview with a Palm person I posted in the second link, which is a much less concise and more long-winded explanation of how it's all cloud sync and the desktop is going away.

Reply to this comment

Why the term iPhone Killer is a self-fullfilling fallacy.

Ranakanth @ 1/15/2009 3:32:08 PM # Q
I really wish tech pundits would quit asking "is this device an iPhone killer?"

If you have to ask that question, you're missing the point. The only way a product becomes a "______ killer" is by being good enough on it's own that it becomes the bar by which other devices are measured. You can't accomplish that by simply trying to 1-up the current device. Anything that will be measured by another standard, rather than on its own qualities, will always be found wanting. Why? Because that product was created with the intent of beating the competitor, and not with the concept of being an exceptional product in it's own right. We've seen plenty of examples of this over the years *cough* zune *cough* *cough*.

If the Pre is everything they're promising at CES (and my private hope is that the shipped product will be even better) Palm is in a prime position to do exactly that... Establish the Pre as the new bar by which other smartphones are measured, not by trying to produce an "iPhone killer", but as they said in the CES keynote, they wanted to compete with technology's biggest competitor... pen and paper.

The Pre shows a lot of promise. Now time will tell if, six months to a year from now, whether tech pundits are asking if some new device is a "Pre killer".

RE: Why the term iPhone Killer is a self-fullfilling fallacy.
BaalthazaaR @ 1/15/2009 4:02:40 PM # Q
>> Now time will tell if, six months to a year from now, whether tech pundits are asking if some new device is a "Pre killer".

Flashback to minority report there... "Pre killer" like in Pre Crime. I really hate the name Pre.

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Palm employee drowns under advice

mikecane @ 1/15/2009 4:23:05 PM # Q
This is from a blog post that has since been pulled (technically speaking, now behind a password!) -

========================

Palm WebOS and Third Party Applications

Super excited to be able to talk at least a little bit about our new Palm WebOS platform and the Palm Pre smartphone.

The main thing I'm responsible for is third party application distribution, and although we're fairly far along in this area, its not too late for your input to count. So let me know what you'd like to see and/or not see. Here are a few questions to get things rolling, in no particular order:

* how would you like to see application installation work? Application updating?
* should palm provide a complete payment processing story or stay out of everyone's way?
* should payment be handled in-application or prior to download or both?
* how should trials and tryouts work?
* do you want to host your application "binaries" on your servers or on ours? Why?
* should we treat open source applications differently? If so, how?
* how should palm handle "featured" applications?
* how should users be able to find/browse for your application?

These are intentionally leading questions, and I can't promise that we'll address any or all of these in our distribution system - all I can say is that these are things I think about and want to hear from developers about.

===========================

I'm not going to post a link to access this because the guy's email address is in it. Even though it's a PALM corporate email address, I figure the guy can use a rest.

I like that they're at least *asking* these questions. I hope it's not just for show and that they'll serious consider suggestions - and at least act on some of them.

Here's one for Palm: STAY THE HELL OUT OF MAKING JUDGMENTS ABOUT EBOOKS, DAMMIT!!

See:
http://mikecane2008.wordpress.com/2008/08/26/apple-forfeits-ebooks-by-banning-a-comic-book/

RE: Palm employee drowns under advice
mikecane @ 1/15/2009 4:30:05 PM # Q
An update to the above:

The popularity of my post has caught me and Palm by surprise, and my boss has asked me to hide the post while management decides what they want me to do about it. I want to make it clear, as always, that I wasn't speaking for Palm about what we are or are not doing, just collecting input. I really appreciate everyone who responded.

The internal discussion has been completed, and we're going to relocate the conversation over to Palm's official developer blog as soon as my author account gets created and I can write it up. Turns out by posting what I did I ended up "volunteering" myself for additional developer outreach work…

The first para should be strikethrough (I hope PIC uses the HTML code WordPress uses for it!).

RE: Palm employee drowns under advice
SeldomVisitor @ 1/15/2009 4:33:38 PM # Q
They're asking these questions in mid-January 2009.

When is that projected release of the Pre again?

RE: Palm employee drowns under advice
mikecane @ 1/15/2009 4:49:40 PM # Q
As it turns out, "Palm" was not asking them. An eager employee of Palm who does his own blog was asking them. As he notes with every post he does (for I went on to read other posts), he is speaking for himself and not for the company. Hence, I think Palm itself told him to basically STFU because it wasn't Official. For all I know, all of those questions might already be solved - and he might not have even known that. But I thought it interesting that he was immediately drowned in replies. It shows All Hope Is Not Yet Lost.

But to you, of course, even the Earth was vaporware before the First Day.

RE: Palm employee drowns under advice
robitaille88 @ 1/15/2009 6:02:13 PM # Q
Considering he's asking how the developers themselves would like their software to be distributed, etc., the only real sensible thing would be to ask post-CES. Not to mention it'll take maybe a month of work to get the basic App Catalog up and then there's the following months before projected Pre launch to fine-tune, add software, etc.

RE: Palm employee drowns under advice
LiveFaith @ 1/15/2009 6:44:59 PM # Q
** As it turns out, "Palm" was not asking them. **

Yawn.

Pat Horne

Reply to this comment

Multi-Touch Precedents

Dawudd @ 1/15/2009 4:32:35 PM # Q
If Apple wanted to sue people for multi-touch gestures, they might as well also sue people like Jeff Han, who developed a multi-touch surface using those gestures several years before the iPhone came out. For that matter, they should sue any of the other researchers who developed those ideas before hand—going all the way back to 1982. See http://www.billbuxton.com/multitouchOverview.html for multi-touch's already-long history. Please stop spreading rumours that Apple independently developed any of the iPhone's multi-touch capabilities on their own. (Of course, that doesn't stop the patent office from granting Apple patents on these capabilities that Apple didn't invent.)
RE: Multi-Touch Precedents
LiveFaith @ 1/15/2009 6:47:04 PM # Q
... and it doesn't stop the multibillion dollar multinational corporation from crushing the little guy under an insurmountable mountain of litigation. Regardless of legal merit.

Pat Horne
RE: Multi-Touch Precedents
jca666us @ 1/16/2009 3:54:28 PM # Q
I believe Apple has patents on their specific implementation of multitouch as well as patents on various gestures.

Also, when Apple bought Fingerworks, they own whatever patents Fingerworks was granted.

I hope Palm has the appropriate patents available to them for Pre's multitouch, otherwise Apple's lawyers will rip Palm a new one, and after the whole graffiti lawsuit with Xerox, would be the last thing Palm would need.

RE: Multi-Touch Precedents
hkklife @ 1/16/2009 4:18:29 PM # Q
So, yeah, we actually have 2 potential legal "entanglements" for Palm on the Pre:

1. Paying royalties to RIM for the keyboard (did we ever determine if RIM gets royalties for ALL miniaturized thumboards or just ones in a "smile" shape?)

2. Apple's trademarked multitouch gestures, as discussed above

Pilot 1000->Pilot 5000->PalmPilot Pro->IIIe->Vx->m505->T|T->T|T2->T|C->T|T3->T|T5->Zodiac 2->TX->Verizon Treo 700P->Verizon Treo 755p->?

Reply to this comment

Something else I want for Pre

mikecane @ 1/16/2009 10:22:29 AM # Q
Watch the Inauguration Live on the iPhone with Ustream
http://www.ustream.tv/blog/2009/01/16/ustream-on-iphone-the-world-has-changed/

- iPhone has it. Pre needs it too.

RE: Something else I want for Pre
Gekko @ 1/16/2009 10:26:02 AM # Q

live tv is infinitely better, silly.

http://www.nextel.com/en/services/power_vision/sprint_tv.shtml

i already have it for FREE.

RE: Something else I want for Pre
mikecane @ 1/16/2009 10:48:16 AM # Q
Man, that's jive-ass 20th-century canned content!

UStream is where the Internet action is, baby!
http://mikecane2008.wordpress.com/2008/12/23/this-is-the-future-of-book-tours/

- see the backlinks at the bottom of the post too!

RE: Something else I want for Pre
mikecane @ 1/16/2009 10:50:35 AM # Q
And I'll never see *this* on that jive-ass turkey SprintTV:
http://mikecane2008.wordpress.com/2008/08/15/i-am-internationally-persecuted/

Reply to this comment

Hey, Ryan! Do this for Pre!

mikecane @ 1/16/2009 10:52:26 AM # Q
Daaaaaaamn. These iPhone people are having fun fun fun!
http://www.apptheater.com/

- there's a new site opportunity for you, Ryan. Unless Palm gets on the ball and embeds such sample vids in their AZpp Catalog (hello, Palm, are you reading this?).

RE: Hey, Ryan! Do this for Pre!
Ryan @ 1/16/2009 11:57:00 AM # Q
Interesting site, thanks Mike.
Reply to this comment

A bump in the Android Road

mikecane @ 1/16/2009 11:19:07 AM # Q
Android phone Agora delayed indefinitely
http://news.cnet.com/8301-1035_3-10144208-94.html?part=rss&subj=news&tag=2547-1_3-0-20

- opportunity for Palm Pre?

RE: A bump in the Android Road
AdamaDBrown @ 1/16/2009 11:35:59 AM # Q
No more so than before. The people who are going to buy a subsidized Sprint exclusive phone, and the ones who are going to buy an unlocked GSM Android phone, are wildly different.

And take note, the Agora is being delayed in order to upgrade the screen resolution.

RE: A bump in the Android Road
mikecane @ 1/16/2009 12:09:58 PM # Q
>>>to upgrade the screen resolution.

Which everyone said WTF? to when it was announced.

And then the Android Team probably said, WTF? NFW!

Reply to this comment

Portal Labs. Bueller? Bueller?

mikecane @ 1/16/2009 12:45:46 PM # Q
Portal Labs was listed as one of the Pre partners at the CES launch.

http://pivotallabs.com/blog

Can anyone figure out wtf might be coming from them?!

And before Gekko goes twee, I'll pre-empt him:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-8JatlRwd0s

RE: Portal Labs. Bueller? Bueller?
mikecane @ 1/17/2009 9:13:53 AM # Q
Palm is listed on Clients & Partners page:
http://pivotallabs.com/clients

Reply to this comment

Why Elevation Partners Invested $425M in Palm

Gekko @ 1/17/2009 5:38:26 AM # Q
RE: Why Elevation Partners Invested $425M in Palm
mikecane @ 1/17/2009 9:33:11 AM # Q
Gekko FTW with that clip!!

Oddly, I never looked up McNamee to see if there was a picture of him. For some odd reason, I had a Marine-like image in my head. Some guy with a flattop haircut and stogie in his mouth who was Mister Pinstripebucks.

Now I see he's a freakin GEEK!! OMFGZ! He just amped up my trust in what Palm has!

And that bit about auto-downloading the Wikipedia entries of people you're going to meet?! WTF?! Palm's been holding out on us! It makes me wonder what other goodies they have up their sleeves (and it's clear now they actually *have* sleeves!).

And was I right or was I right? As soon as I heard Jobs wasn't doing MacWorld, I posted exactly what he said:

Ed Colligan does Manic Dance
http://www.palminfocenter.com/comments/7199/#146962

And:

Apple's Marketing Blunder Of 2009
http://mikecane2008.wordpress.com/2008/12/16/apples-marketing-blunder-of-2009/

RE: Why Elevation Partners Invested $425M in Palm
Gekko @ 1/17/2009 10:47:00 AM # Q

wannabe hippie.

RE: Why Elevation Partners Invested $425M in Palm
Gekko @ 1/17/2009 10:51:36 AM # Q

what i was waiting for him to say - which oddly he never did - was "now i can throw away this batman utility belt and all of these devices because the palm pre is the best at doing everything and is all need". but he never did.

RE: Why Elevation Partners Invested $425M in Palm
mikecane @ 1/17/2009 11:49:32 AM # Q
Well, he keeps them all for competitive intelligence.

"Let me show you how the iPhone does that. See? OK, now watch the better way on the Pre."

"Oh, you're still using a Berry? Did you know you can now do all that on a Pre? Here, let me show you each one."

I do wonder if it's a custom belt! And what looks he gets from the TSA!!

RE: Why Elevation Partners Invested $425M in Palm
abosco @ 1/17/2009 11:49:49 AM # Q
Geeks don't know whether something is going to be successful. Again, should I link the Slashdot article that calls the original iPod lame?

The biggest problem Palm is going to have is the fact that they're starting from scratch. I don't think they have the resources to build an ecosystem from the ground-up.

-Bosco
m105 -> NX70v -> NX80v -> iPhone -> iPhone 3G

RE: Why Elevation Partners Invested $425M in Palm
Gekko @ 1/17/2009 11:58:56 AM # Q
RE: Why Elevation Partners Invested $425M in Palm
Gekko @ 1/17/2009 12:15:26 PM # Q

no - he said "i use all of these devices and they all have strengths - android does best web - iphone does best music - BB does best email."

RE: Why Elevation Partners Invested $425M in Palm
Gekko @ 1/17/2009 12:21:40 PM # Q
RE: Why Elevation Partners Invested $425M in Palm
mikecane @ 1/17/2009 12:32:00 PM # Q
@Gekko: Eh. He'll want all the strengths combined into the Pre at one point.

@abosco: Eh. I think the fact we're missing is the next generation of coders. We keep looking to *existing* devs to bring their stuff to the Pre. I think there will *plenty* of people with the HTML/CSS/Javascript skills who will do replacements that might even be better. I just hope, dear god, we don't get a frikkin flood of PreFart apps at the start!

RE: Why Elevation Partners Invested $425M in Palm
Gekko @ 1/17/2009 12:44:24 PM # Q

i thought it odd that he said that palm's/colligan's "wake up call" was when the blackberry pearl came out. why should it be? it was simply a smaller blackberry - and nothing special. i think the real wake up call was the iphone - but maybe they just don't want to admit it.

RE: Why Elevation Partners Invested $425M in Palm
mikecane @ 1/17/2009 12:58:09 PM # Q
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackberry_Pearl

I don't think Colligan ever expected RIM to enter the consumer space. It must have scared him.

But not enough to prevent him from being Dumbass of the Year with his anti-Apple crack.

And to again put himself in the running for 2009 with his Pre pricing crack.

Christ, does that guy have a ego problem or something?!

RE: Why Elevation Partners Invested $425M in Palm
SeldomVisitor @ 1/17/2009 1:13:09 PM # Q
McNamee isn't a geek; he's a rock star. That's why the long hair.

http://www.fob/com


RE: Why Elevation Partners Invested $425M in Palm
SeldomVisitor @ 1/17/2009 1:13:41 PM # Q
Get that edit capability implemented!

http://www.fob.com


RE: Why Elevation Partners Invested $425M in Palm
freakout @ 1/17/2009 1:32:02 PM # Q
Gekko, you beat me to it!

http://www.palminfocenter.com/news/7181/tech-ticker-interview-with-elevations-roger-mcnamee/

(although I did send it off to Ryan before you made your post. :P )

RE: Why Elevation Partners Invested $425M in Palm
freakout @ 1/17/2009 1:35:26 PM # Q
The biggest problem Palm is going to have is the fact that they're starting from scratch. I don't think they have the resources to build an ecosystem from the ground-up.

Care to make a friendly wager, Bosco? Ten of your Earth dollars says they do - and it'll be thriving by the end of the '09.

RE: Why Elevation Partners Invested $425M in Palm
mikecane @ 1/17/2009 1:36:37 PM # Q
This is the better link:
http://www.usatoday.com/educate/college/careers/profile1-28-05.htm

Via an rather sparse Wikipedia entry:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roger_McNamee

OK, so he's NOT a geek. But he has been deep into the Valley, so he Knows Things.

RE: Why Elevation Partners Invested $425M in Palm
Gekko @ 1/17/2009 1:46:38 PM # Q

no worries.


RE: Why Elevation Partners Invested $425M in Palm
mikecane @ 1/17/2009 2:44:38 PM # Q
abosco, you're just outnumbered here. And you know I have not been a Palm fan for a lonnnng time. And you know I *love* the iPhone. But I think you're missing the key point about the Pre: it's a new paradigm. Forget the "web app" controversy and look at it as the first true *web phone*. It's nearly as much a new paradigm as the original Macintosh (note I said *nearly* - don't lump me in with Mace and his stupid Foleo gushing!). I still can't wrap my head around it because the more I look at it, the bigger the black hole around it becomes. I can't explain it in words, either. The only thing I can say was that after reading Ted Nelson's brilliant "Dreams Machines," I understood *completely* the nature of the possible online future. The Pre is something *like* that - except the "book" for it hasn't been written yet. The CES demo was just the cover of that book. This is why I cannot buy an iPhone. The Pre has stopped me. For now.

RE: Why Elevation Partners Invested $425M in Palm
abosco @ 1/18/2009 7:25:10 PM # Q
I think there will *plenty* of people with the HTML/CSS/Javascript skills who will do replacements that might even be better. I just hope, dear god, we don't get a frikkin flood of PreFart apps at the start!

Developers can create widgets for this platform. Widgets that have access to PIM data. Honestly, I fail to see why there will suddenly be a flood of developers to this platform. It's not hard to code in C as evidenced by the 10,000 native applications for the iPhone. And besides, you're always clamoring for quality software. To do that, you need a full SDK, not a widget DIY.

Care to make a friendly wager, Bosco? Ten of your Earth dollars says they do - and it'll be thriving by the end of the '09.

What's the bet? That they'll have a successful launch, consumer support, and 10,000 applications in the first year? Because if so, a company already did that.

But I think you're missing the key point about the Pre: it's a new paradigm. Forget the "web app" controversy and look at it as the first true *web phone*.

This thing is still compared to the iPhone every time it's brought up. As much as Palm is trying to avoid it, it gets compared to the iPhone, which is the gold standard for smartphones. Until new offerings start getting compared to the Pre, it'll still be a second-rate product.

It's not good enough to match a competitor in features anymore. If that were true, the iPhone would be buried in a sea of lookalikes. But it stands out. Why?

(No, the answer isn't the Mac cult excuse. I am one of many whose iPhone is their first and only Apple product.)

-Bosco
m105 -> NX70v -> NX80v -> iPhone -> iPhone 3G

RE: Why Elevation Partners Invested $425M in Palm
freakout @ 1/19/2009 1:31:46 AM # Q
Developers can create widgets for this platform.

Right. So you'd call Gmail, Google Maps or Google Docs "widgets"? Facebook a "widget"? Pandora a "widget"? Wikipedia a "widget"? Flickr a "widget"? Maybe you haven't realised, but the stuff that's being created using web languages nowadays is pretty goddamn powerful. Massive databases, social networks, photo managers/sharers: all of these have sprung forth from web languages.

It's not hard to code in C...

ROFL. Ever sat down and tried to teach yourself C, Bosco? From the sounds of it, no. Certainly it's not impossible, but compared to web languages? It's skyscrapers vs. sandcastles mate.

...as evidenced by the 10,000 native applications for the iPhone.

That's no evidence of C being easy to code or not. Merely evidence that iPhone is an attractive platform for mobile developers. No one's saying otherwise. But the number of web developers out there is even bigger, and suddenly they may have a whole new market to play in. Pre can leverage a whole new developer community that has mostly been restricted to desktop browsers until now. Who knows what they might come up with?

Plus - and I admit this is speculation - it is incredibly likely that Palm will eventually release some sort of native SDK that can get down to the metal. They'll have the best of both worlds.

This thing is still compared to the iPhone every time it's brought up

Yes. Usually along with the term "iPhone-killer".

BTW, you keep referencing that "10,000 applications" number like it's a huge measure of success or something. According to Wikipedia Palm OS has over 50,000 applications. Looks like Apple still has a ways to go before they're king of the hill. :P

RE: Why Elevation Partners Invested $425M in Palm
SeldomVisitor @ 1/19/2009 4:04:07 AM # Q
> ...Ever sat down and tried to teach yourself C...

I did.

My first program was a translator to convert Macro-11 Assembly language into Version 7 Unix Assembly language. It was used on a massive program that was heavily used by our lab under Dec's DOS and needed to be used under the freshly-installed Unix.

That was my first program in C.

Very easy language to learn.

RE: Why Elevation Partners Invested $425M in Palm
mikecane @ 1/19/2009 10:27:55 AM # Q
>>>This thing is still compared to the iPhone every time it's brought up. As much as Palm is trying to avoid it, it gets compared to the iPhone, which is the gold standard for smartphones.

EVERYTHING gets compared to the iPhone. AND to the iPod.

>>>Until new offerings start getting compared to the Pre, it'll still be a second-rate product.

Until people start asking you, "Can you iPhone to that [like on the Pre]?"

>>>It's not good enough to match a competitor in features anymore. If that were true, the iPhone would be buried in a sea of lookalikes. But it stands out. Why?

Because Apple has top-notch talent. Because the iPhone is the first phone to do things without needing a frikkin degree in computers. You know all the reasons why.

>>>(No, the answer isn't the Mac cult excuse. I am one of many whose iPhone is their first and only Apple product.)

See above answer. I'd never argue the iPhone only appealed to Mac favoristas.

You will continue to miss the point about the Pre until a lightbulb goes off in your head at some point in the future - from some app no one (especially ME!) has yet envisioned.

The Pre has stopped me getting an iPhone. And it's inching me to the point where I'll get a Pre instead.

RE: Why Elevation Partners Invested $425M in Palm
abosco @ 1/19/2009 10:40:36 AM # Q
The Palm OS was out for over a decade, and it took years to pick up steam with developers! Meanwhile, the iPhone hit 10,000 applications overnight. Companies dream of that kind of success. You're blind if you don't think that represents Apple's immense success with their smartphone.

ROFL. Ever sat down and tried to teach yourself C, Bosco? From the sounds of it, no. Certainly it's not impossible, but compared to web languages? It's skyscrapers vs. sandcastles mate.

I completely disagree. Regardless, yes, I've taken programming classes and have become familiar with programming languages and the associated logic. This widget development platform is solving a problem that doesn't exist. Who are all of these developers who are saying, "Boy, I have a really great idea for an application, but I don't know how to code in anything but CSS! What ever shall I do?" If you make a living programming, you know how to code in C. This isn't even up for discussion.

Tim, weren't you spending all of last year trying to convince people how much better the Treo was than the iPhone? And you're going to spend this year trying to convince people how much better the Pre is than the iPhone?

Back to my original point - this thing does not have enough going for it to make it a breakthrough success like the iPhone. It's still fundamentally an iClone with a few added features. That's simply not enough to take the wind out of the iPhone's sails (or sales). You still don't get it. Features don't win customers.

-Bosco
m105 -> NX70v -> NX80v -> iPhone -> iPhone 3G

RE: Why Elevation Partners Invested $425M in Palm
abosco @ 1/19/2009 10:47:58 AM # Q
You will continue to miss the point about the Pre until a lightbulb goes off in your head at some point in the future - from some app no one (especially ME!) has yet envisioned.

So you're telling me that someone is going to have this fantastic idea for an application and bring it to a platform that has no current consumer support, is supported by a third-rate carrier, and has no SDK? And that they're going to turn down development for a platform that already has a handful of developer-rags-to-riches stories, a full native SDK, and over ten million customers supported by a continually-updating and expanding company?

Seriously? You think there's a better chance that THE breakthrough application will come on a Pre and not an iPhone?

The Pre has stopped me getting an iPhone. And it's inching me to the point where I'll get a Pre instead.

Remember your most-used phrase 15 years ago? "Is there a Mac version of that?" Get used to saying that with the Pre. Meanwhile, I'll be busy playing Brother In Arms on my iPhone.

Honestly, I haven't really picked up a video game in years. But I paid six bucks for this app, and holy shit, it's phenomenal!

-Bosco
m105 -> NX70v -> NX80v -> iPhone -> iPhone 3G

RE: Why Elevation Partners Invested $425M in Palm
mikecane @ 1/19/2009 11:20:16 AM # Q
>>>>If you make a living programming, you know how to code in C. This isn't even up for discussion.

Haaaaaaaa! Go to slashdot and start that up. I think you'll be beaten up one way or the other. There are many, many people toiling in Suit Boxes earning their coin with just the elements the Pre uses: HTML/CSS/JavaScript. You do them a disservice with that statement.

>>>>So you're telling me that someone is going to have this fantastic idea for an application and bring it to a platform that has no current consumer support, is supported by a third-rate carrier, and has no SDK? And that they're going to turn down development for a platform that already has a handful of developer-rags-to-riches stories, a full native SDK, and over ten million customers supported by a continually-updating and expanding company?

>>>>Seriously? You think there's a better chance that THE breakthrough application will come on a Pre and not an iPhone?

Must I be this explicit then? The answer is YES. YES. YES!

You are ignoring a few fundamental points here:

1) The iPhone is mediated by App Store Nazis*
2) There is an entry fee to dev for the iPhone and a framework learning curve
3) The iPhone disallows the multitasking the Pre has built-in
4) There are devs out there who *hate* the iPhone Nazi-like locked-down way

>>>Remember your most-used phrase 15 years ago? "Is there a Mac version of that?" Get used to saying that with the Pre. Meanwhile, I'll be busy playing Brother In Arms on my iPhone.

>>>Honestly, I haven't really picked up a video game in years. But I paid six bucks for this app, and holy shit, it's phenomenal!

Oh stop it. You act as if I'm throwing dirt on the iPhone. You know better than that. But me ask that about a *game*? You *should* know me better than *that*!

*App Store Nazis:
http://mikecane2008.wordpress.com/2008/12/23/apple-approves-of-shooting-nurses-in-the-face/
http://mikecane2008.wordpress.com/2008/12/22/apple-bans-another-book-from-app-store/
http://mikecane2008.wordpress.com/2008/08/26/apple-forfeits-ebooks-by-banning-a-comic-book/
http://mikecane2008.wordpress.com/2008/12/03/iphone-devs-plough-your-own-furrow/

RE: Why Elevation Partners Invested $425M in Palm
SeldomVisitor @ 1/19/2009 11:22:24 AM # Q
> ...3) The iPhone disallows the multitasking the Pre has built-in...

When it's released, if ever, let's see how many nonPalm apps are allowed to multitask...

RE: Why Elevation Partners Invested $425M in Palm
freakout @ 1/19/2009 11:45:51 AM # Q
Tim, weren't you spending all of last year trying to convince people how much better the Treo was than the iPhone?

Still bests it in a number of key areas, you know, from removable battery to non-crippled Bluetooth to Real Keyboard. With ideas that were good enough for Apple to rip off wholesale, like threaded messaging or a mute switch. (Be careful when you throw around words like iClone, mate.) "Better"? Maybe not. "More functional"? Yes.

And you're going to spend this year trying to convince people how much better the Pre is than the iPhone?

Who do I have to convice? Most people can see what's in front of their noses. The rest - like you - are simply fanboys in denial. :P

Meanwhile, I'll be busy playing Brother In Arms on my iPhone...

Yes, the iPhone has some great games on it. Who's disputing that? Holding it up as some shining example of superiority, however, is a fallacy because:

1) It erroneously assumes that there will never be a lower-level SDK for the Pre, and;
2) Games are not killer apps. If people really want gaming-on-the-go they're probably gonna buy a DS or PSP that's purpose-built for it (with stuff like Real Buttons). Games on your phone are icing on the cake.

You're the one who brought iPhone into this discussion, not moi. (Or maybe it was Mike. Anyway.) I reckon Pre and webOS will be a smashing success regardless of whether iPhone continues to do well. That's all I'm saying.

You on the other hand seem to think Apple have gotten a death grip on the fickle fashion-conscious phone market and no-one will ever challenge them ever. Wonder what's going to happen in a year or two when all those iPhone contracts start expiring? Are people going to stick with Apple when there's new options like the Pre? It'll be interesting to watch.

RE: Why Elevation Partners Invested $425M in Palm
freakout @ 1/19/2009 11:52:44 AM # Q
When it's released, if ever, let's see how many nonPalm apps are allowed to multitask...

Oh, don't be stupid. (I realise I'm talking to SeldomVisitor here, but still...)

RE: Why Elevation Partners Invested $425M in Palm
abosco @ 1/19/2009 12:21:45 PM # Q
3) The iPhone disallows the multitasking the Pre has built-in...

Apple has promised to make background notification and multitasking available to developers, however a timeline has never been established. Product development has been hard at work on it. In my opinion, it's safe to assume it will be introduced in 3.0 software sometime this Summer, likely June.

2) Games are not killer apps. If people really want gaming-on-the-go they're probably gonna buy a DS or PSP that's purpose-built for it (with stuff like Real Buttons). Games on your phone are icing on the cake.

How do you explain the fact IGN has the iPhone listed as one of their platforms for game reviews? I don't see WM, Palm, or Symbian on that list, but I do see the DS and PSP. Gaming is a big factor for a smartphone, and not just icing on the cake. Most of the popular applications are, indeed, games.

I reckon Pre and webOS will be a smashing success regardless of whether iPhone continues to do well. That's all I'm saying.

And all I'm saying is that you're wrong. Palm did a good job replicating the iPhone OS. But adding a keyboard and a tabbed multitasking menu will not suddenly leapfrog it, especially since pricing has yet to be established, and it's coming out on a lame-duck carrier.

Mike, where's that Colligan price quote again?

In order to buy this, people must have no prior experience with Palm (otherwise they'd know to stay far away), currently not own an iPhone or Blackberry (because they are both solid platforms with good ecosystems), look forward to switching over to poor Sprint service, be prepared to fork over some serious cash, and accept limited developer support because the platform still has the wrapping on it. This smartphone will not have the gotta-have-it consumer appeal of the iPhone or the enterprise support of the Blackberry. Mark my words, this thing will find very limited success. And expect it to get worse as a wave of Android phones get released, and iPhone 3.0 gets ready for launch. Palm Pre is actually short for Palm Pre-Mortem.

-Bosco
m105 -> NX70v -> NX80v -> iPhone -> iPhone 3G

RE: Why Elevation Partners Invested $425M in Palm
freakout @ 1/19/2009 1:22:52 PM # Q
Mark my words, this thing will find very limited success.

Your words are marked. Again, care to wager? Ten bucks says Pre sells well and webOS proves a viable, popular platform.

RE: Why Elevation Partners Invested $425M in Palm
twrock @ 1/19/2009 4:16:32 PM # Q
And you're going to spend this year trying to convince people how much better the Pre is than the iPhone?

You know, I could have probably been convinced that the iPhone OS was the best thing going for mobile computing. And the hardware was almost "everything I ever wanted" (but it did have some serious flaws, but so does the Pre). But Apple's propensity to limit the potential of the product by trying to control every aspect of not only the product but the ecosystem is just too much to stomach. I can't go with a company like that.

But then when I start hearing about this new webOS from Palm, I don't think that I can be convinced at all that the iPhone OS is the best thing going. All Palm has to do to hit a bases loaded home run is deliver an "open-enough" system for developers (via the necessary API's and SDK). If they go too far in attempting to emulate the "control-freak" culture of Apple, they are in a losing battle with Apple. (And just like the stupid attempt to become the next Microsoft by splitting the company, they would fail against Apple as well.)

So, yes, based on everything I've seen so far, the webOS/Pre combo is better than the iPhone. Having the better product doesn't necessarily equate to success, but it's a good start.


"twrock is infamous around these parts"
(from my profile over at Brighthand due to my negative 62 rep points rating)

RE: Why Elevation Partners Invested $425M in Palm
mikecane @ 1/19/2009 5:03:35 PM # Q
The Colligan quote, courtesy of Gekko:

>>>When Peter Kafka asked if the Palm Pre's price would be less than the iPhone's $US199, Palm CEO Ed Colligan replied, "Why would we do that when we have a significantly better product?"

http://www.palminfocenter.com/comments/9681/#148519

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