Comments on: Sony N710C Can Display 16-Bit Color

The Clie 320x320 Hi-res screen will change the expectations PDA displays forever. Hell the device as a whole will change the PDA world.

I have absolute confirmation from someone high up in Sony's US division that they are working on a version of OS 4.0 for the N710C, though they can't tell me when it will be available. It will definitely allow the screen to display 16-bit color.

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News Editor
Palm Infocenter

//Panda Fan

on the serious side, i agree with Alan. seems that half of the posts now are flame wars between m505 users and Clie users.
kick back, we all family and we all on the same side.

-Raishe
"Monster Pig kills Jesus
More at 11"

They will tell you things like:

"The m505 is thinner" - even though it doesn't fit the hand as well as the CLIE.

"The m505 is lighter" - by a massive 1.5 ounces than the CLIE.

"The m505 has a full metal case" - as if anyone really cares.

"The m505 screen is *adequate*; I can usually read it without squinting too much if I keep the sidelight on all the time" - even though the screen should be the one part of a PDA you don't compromise.

"The m505 lasts longer between charges" - even though the battery life difference essentially vanishes because most people have to keep the m505's side light on to be able to read the screen.

"I don't like proprietary formats like Memory Stick; I prefer open standards like SD" - even though the I/O standard (which needs to be implemented before ANY new SD peripherals are built) hasn't even been decided yet. And how long will it take to release peripherals after the standard is ratified? There may be a new memory "standard" by then.

"I don't need MP3, high resolution color, jog dial, or multimedia support" - just like some people used to say they didn't need color screens. Or 2 MB of memory was enough. Or 16 MHz processors were fast enough. Or rechargeable batteries were a bad solution. You "don't need" them until you try them and find out how nice it is to have the advanced features, whether or not you use them all the time.

"I think Palm has better customer support" - perhaps because they have so much practice with the defective devices they have released. Given the m505's profit margin, it should come with a Palm technician that is dispatched to your home to resolve any problems.

"The m505 is cheaper" - even though it's incredibly overpriced compared to EVERY other PDA on the market. The m505 is Palm's new Vx (a model legendary for fleecing those fashion-conscious people with a lot of money to burn.)

Palm expected to make most of their profits this year from the overpriced m505 and now that it is being rejected, they may go bankrupt unless they can produce a model with the screen quality of the new CLIE. Since they already buy their color screens from Sony (open up your m505 case and look who manufactured the screen!) they could beg Sony for the N710 screen, but this would mean abandoning the sacred Vx/m505 form factor.

Palm needs to stop pretending that anyone really needs to have a battery runtime of over 10 hours. Once they admit this, they will stop making design decisions that are destroying their company.

So please don't badger or make fun of the m505 owners. They're a dying breed and pretty soon they will be extinct. If/when you see them in public squinting at their dim screens, please don't laugh or point at them. Don't smile smugly or sneer or call them gullible idiots for being suckered by Palm's Zen of Palm/Simply Palm bullshit. Don't offer to show them your CLIE or iPAQ or Casio or Handspring Twist screens. Just walk away and leave them in their m505 misery.

Thank you

;-)

Why the Hell do you care what I think about my m505? I'm happy with what I bought. You are happy with what you bought. End of story.

If you know your local Staples or other office supply/electronics store manager, ask them to tell you what has been going on with m505 sales. If it's anything like around here, the first two weeks were great, but only limited stock was available. The third week saw improved supply but stores began seeing the highest rate of returns they have ever had for a PDA, including the Palm IIIC. Each week after the second has shown decreased sales and increased returns.

Face it, if the tables were turned, you guys will be all over the boards exulting the superiority of you m505. You KNOW you would!!! The only reason that you are taking this "high road" approach is that's the ONLY remaining argument that you have.

For now the m505 has a MUCH wider distribution channel, since Palm is better known and more established than Sony. It is likely that once average customers start seeing the CLIE in use by others, sales will skyrocket. By the way, Palm is predicted to be downgrading their expected sales for the current quarter (AGAIN) later this month.

Now that Palm finally has competition, it would appear that people are no longer willing to accept poor quality or relatively primitive equipment being sold for a premium price. Don't be surprised to see Palm slashing prices in the next week or two, in an effort to kickstart sluggish sales.

The point that I am trying to make is this: We all use the Palm platform. We all make use of the datebook, phonebook and other essential parts of the Palm OS. Some of us just have different tastes. For example, I have a friend who loves his Visor Prism because of the color, where I don't care either way as long as I could justify paying extra for the color. I also know someone who has TONS of gizmos for his Visor but I don't like lugging stuff around with me. Some go for performance, while others go for price and just plane value.

We all have different needs and wants. So why do we need to bash each other? I think all of you guys need to grow up a little and accept the fact that we're all in this for the same cause: getting both companies to make their parts better for us both on features and on our wallets.

~Charlie

Hoping to see that OS 4 upgrade soon!

m505 owners : Hey I am holding m505, where is the Clie?

** After Clie came out

m505 owners : Well m505 has nice form factor and it has 16bit color while Clie has only 256 colors

** After the news that Clie can support 16bit came out

m505 owners: Well m505 has nice form factor!!

What is going on?

The SkyTraveler

It's possible that the processor (and graphics controller) will not be able to handle both 320x320
resolution AND 16-bit color for fast-paced, graphics-intensive games. However, I'm sure that
SplashPhoto, AlbumToGo, MGI, etc. could make use of this to make a kick-ass photo viewer. In
fact, Sony should just go ahead and update the included PictureGear Pocket to support 16-bit
color. It already supports high-res and reading directly from the memory stick, so this would
nicely round-out the application!

If I say m505 screen is WAY too dark, ther is no way to see. This is defintely an exaggeration.

But when people say, the m505 screen is dark while Clie is brighter....

That is called 'comparison'.

What if I, a Vx user, state that m505 is WAY too heavy, m505 is a MONSTER, there is no way that you can put m505 on your shirt pocket, do you think that is OK to you?

I completely agree. Frankly, I'm tired of reading posts from people who can't carry out a discussion without insulting everyone they reply to. I'm really concerned that the ugly tone these discussion groups have taken on lately is driving away people who want to have serious conversations to be replaced by nothing but trolls. I'm certain people are afraid to ask questions because they know some 14-year-old, in physical or mental years, is going to rip them up and down for not being as all knowing as they are. The fact that the "all-knowing" answer is frequently wrong only makes it worse.

It is possible for someone to have a different opinion than you and still be sane and mentally competent. Everyone values different things. There is no one handheld that is right for everyone. Try to see things from the other person's perspective.

If someone writes something expressing an opinion that you totally disagree with, don't immediately fire off a response full of insults and condescension. That is NOT to way to change their mind. Quite the opposite. Does being insulted ever change your mind?

When responding to something you disagree with, ask yourself what you are trying to accomplish with your comment. Are you really trying to change the other person's mind? If you are, you need to be persuasive. List all the facts you have on your side. Tell them why you feel like you do, not just how you feel.

On the other hand, if you are so filled with anger and condescension that you have no hope of being logical and you can only express yourself through insults and profanity, you need to shut down your computer and get some anger management counseling. Being so wrapped up in whether the N710C is better than the m505 that you can't carry out a coherent conversation is a sign that you might have a problem.

There is a rule that I would like everyone to follow: If your comment isn't something you would say to someone face-to-face, don't post it. What is too rude to say in real life is still too rude to say here. If you can't follow this rule, frankly, I don't want you here. I'd rather have this site used by 10 people who can carry out a reasonable conversations that 10 thousand trolls.

---
News Editor
Palm Infocenter

505:
+Buttons work well, can be pressed with stylus (for typical V users)
+Smaller form factor (not by much)
+Lo Res make things look the same no matter what app
+Faster than my old Prism despite same processor in the real world (Benchmark is discounted, not OS4 optimized)
+Already more accessories
-Not much change fom Vx, just useable in more conditions
-Screen equivelent to mono devices (backlight is actually useful compared to "reverse backilight" though)
-Crappy backlight, not adjustable
-No Multimedia
-Odd cradle attachment

Overall:

505-Evolution of the species
Clie-New Species, but a bit bloated

Just trying to be subjective. I have no prefrence, just experience.

Yes it can, press and hold the next/previous track button, or configure the jog dial to ff/rewind.

-Hi Res tease

HiRes Panel with the system patch that comes on the cdrom lets you force hi res mode with programs not designed for hi res. text looks a lot more beautiful, AvantGo is great.

-Inconsistent HiRes Fonts, Lo Res icons make things odd/unfinished feeling

Looks fine to me. Or download CRS-Launcher then you get both.

-Jog Wheel only works when Apps are wirtten for it (re. None except stock apps)

Uhh there are tons of programs i know that support jog dial, and, with the system patch included on cdrom, there's Jog Dial Assist, lets you use jogdial for programs not designed to.

-Movies Play @ 10fps. unusable

that's because it's gmovie/gmedia. it sucks, tealmovie works great, fast as hell.

-Slow for a Palm OS device

It's not slow, it's fast. only some programs mess up and is a bit slower.

m505
+Lo Res make things look the same no matter what app

So you're telling me LoRes is better? HAHA. btw, Lores normal programs on n710c looks the same too, if not better!

"505-Evolution of the species
Clie-New Species, but a bit bloated"
Clie n710c is an evolution of the s300/s500. why is it bloated? because it has nice features? hey, you can say the 505 is bloated compared to the vx then.

"Just trying to be subjective. I have no prefrence, just experience."

Get more experience then.

-nXt

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CLIE_Users_Group

From some sources, Prism uses the trick by driving the screen directly without OS support. I suspect Sony can use the same way (if Clie can really support 16 bit color)

So yes, Handspring did modify the OS.

Palm_pilot_guy

Is it a "huge clunky brick"? No, it's smaller than a Palm III and Visor Deluxe/Prism models. It has a better screen--NO ARGUMENT, and people who point out Handspring's pre-OS4 16-bit color are simply idiots. Look m505 owners, I know you guys are trying really hard to find something wrong with the Clie, but there simply isn't! Cling on to your "superior form factor" and let us enjoy hi-res 16-bit color glory :)

Check out the clie discussion forums on brighthand.com, and you'll see how many people have switched from the m505 to the clie.

This actually makes me more impressed with Sony...instead of pulling a classic HP move of "uhh, err, I think our PDA is 16-bit color??? oh wait its not, oh crap!" they said what their software shipped with out of the box: 8-bit color.

All this talk about people having to wait for OS4 is also crazy. Don't you remember how many people were using grayscale before PalmOS supported it? This is the same ballgame. Nothing is stopping developers like Red Mercury from going for it right away...

Do you by any chance work for Sony?

As for Memory Sticks, they are seen as a legitimate contender to SD cards. I also have no problem buying all Sony products as they make good, quality stuff. Oh yeah, almost 10,000,000 mem sticks have been sold. how many SD cards? Oh yeah, a few hundred thousand.

Bottom line, Sony's a big company with a good memory (NPI). They're not going to repeat the mistakes of the past. The memory stick will not go the same way of Betamax.

1) The N700 has a magnet inside at the bottom corner to hold the cover down. The U.s. Units (N710) came out without the magnet. It is rumored that Sony didn't include it for fear of the U.S.'s higher dependence on magnetic cards, and erasing them if they were near the pda. Some really want the magnet and there have been a couple posts on palmblvd how to get a magnet at Radio Shack that fits well.

2) Japanese unit initially did not support MP3 and only Sony's proprietary ATRAC. Sony knew this would never fly in the U.S. Latest reports are that they are releasing a patch to give the N700 MP3 ability in June.

3) Lastly, both units are flashable but the N700 has 4 more MB onboard (?ROM) onboard for the higher requirments of the Japanese characters compared to English.

Hope that helps :-)

Palm must have hired a 7 yr old to write their ads huh?:

Double Expasions <-- Double "Expansions" maybe?

Build-in Bluetooth <-- Try "Built-in" sparky.

You broke the first rule of trying to pull a hoax:

1. Don't mis-spell everything.

(Also, based on the identical-but-flipped light reflections on the SD slots, it looks to me like the second one is a cut-and-paste job.)

If this is not a hoax, answer me this, masked stranger.

1. Why would you need more than one expansion slot?

2. Why didn't we hear about this before?

3. Why wasn't there a top view?

Thank you, the plaintiff has spoken.

Thats not true and you know it. PocketPC's have ALWAYS had a hardware advantage, and still do. Processor speeds (don't give me this crap about bloated software...) Memory, and display tech have ALWAYS come to pocketPC first. Comparing PocketPC to PalmOS is a wasted effort. A year ago when the ipaq arrived, you palm zealots said nobody needed color, nobody needed sound... Where are we today??!?! Now, with your sony clie, you're praising the "advances"... ITS PATHETIC.

"Now, in addition to having better apps and a more stable OS, we can point out that a Palm device can be had with better resolution screens, or more expansion slots, or smaller form factor, or more actual colors, etc, etc... "

Better resolution? at the expense of color depth... better color depth at the expense of resolution... The palm platform is full of compromises, there is not ONE single PalmOS device that has the optimum of form factor, power and price. More expansion slots? sorry, there's not one palm I know of that can use INDUSTRY STANDARD PCMCIA cards.

"And we can quote the numbers regardless of which Palm we own, because it's all in the family. We can pick what we want, or what fits our needs, and still be comfortable knowing that we can change our device if the need arises. "

So what your saying that there exists a device that is <5oz, has 320x320 res, 16bit color, multimedia, expansion??

Before all of you jump on me, I have an m505, a visor deluxe, an ipaq, an em500, a newton mp2000. The best pda on the market today that combines form factor, screen resolution, flawless integration of multimedia and ease of application development is a pocketPC.

Palm's "integration" of multimedia is a patchwork at best... To quote a story I read about the new clie... "its like they took an excellent PDA and grafted on a walkman". PocketPC's have a true digital audio subsystem, accessible from EVERY application, on EVERY PPC device. So applications need only be recompiled for different processors... whereas a clie specific atrac player would have NO hope of working on my m505. Finally, don't even try to joke about video on a palm. 33mhz on a handheld is NOT enough to do serious computing. Try decoding wma files on that dragonball processor. Mp3's?? thats old news, a compression format that takes double the space than wma.

Throwing dsp's, special screens etc.. onto a SINGLE palm device is a bad idea... it fragments the market. A year ago, palm zealots were complaining about different processors. Well what happens when you get completely DIFFERENT devices?!?!?

Before I get shot down here... I'm not a palm basher. I have simply come to the conclusion that this platform is reached its limit in its current state and no amount of patching, adding to it will fix its problems. When the new ARM palms come out next year then we can talk... But then again... what will pocketPC's be like then. A STEP AHEAD!

Prism use its own way to drive the 16-bit color (somebody call it
an extension to Palm OS 3.5), so it is more like a specific software
without needing the OS support.

Sony could do the same thing, and what red-mercury has done might be the
indication of that.

You might ask, then why not every company come up with their
own way? The answer is they could, but just plenty dirty job and
the software won't be able to run on other machine. If the OS
support it, the same software can be run on every machine which run
the same OS.

Hey dude, you got to know what's happening in the development scene before you post that one. Palm rolled back changed from Sony with their VFS manager and Handspring with their 16-bit APIs and created the OS4.0. Basically, the 16-bit API routines used in OS3.5 in the Prism is essentially THE SAME THING used in OS4. Ditto for the VFS manager in the Clie 300 with OS3.5. And that's the reason why MSMount works on the m505 in first place. It just so happened that the OS3.5 that Sony was using obviously does not have the 16-bit APIs.

64MB MultiMedia Card - Simple Technology - (Memory) Lowest Price: $67.60

Sony's getting the prices down, and now that third party companies are making them (namely Lexar, from what I've seen so far), hopefully the Memory Stick price will drop even further.

I'm getting mighty tempted to sell my Canon S100 and Jornada 548 and get a Clie and Sony camera...doh! :)

Evan
evancg@qwest.net

This is from SONY website:

PEG-N710C - US$499.99 - Satin Silver
MP3 player headphones Palm OS v.3.5
320X320 resolution 8 bit color

PEG-N610C/S - US$399.99 - Satin Silver
Palm OS v.4.0 320X320 resolution
16 bit color

PEG-N610C/V - US$399.99 - Metallic Purple
Palm OS v.4.0 320X320 resolution
16 bit color

Also a statement from SONY posted on this website:

OS 4.0 Upgrade Coming Soon to A Palm Near You
Posted by: Ed on Thursday, July 19, 2001 2:25:26 PM

"....David Yang, a Sony spokesperson, has confirmed that an upgrade to OS 4.0 for the PEG-N710C is being developed and this will allow the device to display 16-bit color. However, Mr. Yang isn't able to say when the upgrade will be released or whether the company will be charging for it....."

Cheers!

RH