Comments on: Motorola Unveils 200 MHz Dragonball-ARM Chip

Motorola has announced two new DragonBall microprocessor products -- the DragonBall MX1 and DragonBall Super VZ.

The DragonBall MX1, the first ARM core-based DragonBall microprocessor, offers speeds up to 200 MHz. Also, it provides the first on-chip Bluetooth ready applications processor announced from a major semiconductor supplier. While Palm hasn't yet specified which company will make the processors in its OS 5.0 devices expected next year, the MX1 is a prime candidate.

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200MHZ YEAH!

I.M. Anonymous @ 6/12/2001 2:34:17 PM #
It's about time. It looks like Micrtosofts
crappy fast cpu's are no longer going to be such a big deal. Palm will catch up next year and offer both fast cpu's and the best portable OS ever


-Botornig


RE: 200MHZ YEAH!
tipds @ 6/12/2001 3:09:23 PM #
Microsoft is not making CPU's.

As for the OS... Palm is easy to use, but the MS apps are lightyears ahead of the Palm counterparts. There is no REAL Excel compatible apps. for the Palm. No scripting support, etc. I also think it's really dorky the way there is no object orientation in the Palm. I mean... what gives with requiring each individual application to have its own support for things like printing and keyboards. That should all be provided through the OS, and used via interrupts for the software... maybe some other API. Don't get me wrong... I love my Palm IIIxe, but its uses are limited.

RE: 200MHZ YEAH!
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/12/2001 3:59:35 PM #
Hello? Are you familiar with MiniCalc? Looks like Excel, syncs seamlessly with Excel, supports Excel functions...

RE: 200MHZ YEAH!
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/12/2001 4:23:50 PM #

YEAH, Baby, it's gonna be wonderful.

Next year we're going to have a kickass ARM processor and 160x160 color displays that are fuzzy and dim.

Way to go Palm. I love the innovation that BS 5.0 will bring. Go Palm Go.

RE: 200MHZ YEAH!
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/12/2001 9:24:26 PM #
Why does everybody think the m505 is fuzzy? I could understand where you were coming from if you said it was dim, but fuzzy? No! It is razor sharp-text especially so. The m505 is not fuzzy.

RE: 200MHZ YEAH!
tipds @ 6/13/2001 9:14:10 AM #
Hey "I.M. Anonymous". Why don't you get a login so we will know who you are? Anyhow... As for MiniCalc: It is KINDA Excel compatable, but not really. There are tons of things that can't be done using that program that can easily be done in Excel. It has SOME of the Excel functions, but not all of them. That's to say nothing about scripting.

RE: 200MHZ YEAH!
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/13/2001 10:09:39 AM #
Exactly which I.M. Anonymous are you referring to???

RE: 200MHZ YEAH!
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/13/2001 5:01:22 PM #
Dude compare apples to apples.
Pocket Excel for PPCs is not as powerful as desktop excel either. So what is your point? Palm has SEVERAL Excel syncronizing Programs as capable as Pocket Excel

RE: 200MHZ YEAH!
tipds @ 6/14/2001 10:00:30 AM #
Which I.M. Anonymous am I talking about? That is exactly what I mean. Who am I talking about? How does anyone know? Are they all being posted by the same person? Probably not. I am talking to the I.M. Anonymous that posts under that name. I'm talking to YOU I.M. Anonymous.

As for comparisons... Try Excel for CE. More betta.

I still like my Palm, but there's plenty that could be done to improve the OS and it's apps. Mainly, some improvements to the OS would make the programs much easier to write well. More object orientation.

Oh, brother...
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/23/2001 4:20:45 PM #
... "I.M. Anonymous" is the default name this site gives anyone who doesn't post often enough for them to bother creating their own account. It cannot be changed by the user. Anyone who posts without first setting up an account will carry that name.

Palm OS ARM due in 1 year

I.M. Anonymous @ 6/12/2001 2:40:13 PM #
It looks like Carl said that Palm OS 5.0 is at least a year away. Those of you who are waiting for these handhelds to upgrade, is it worth it?

RE: Palm OS ARM due in 1 year
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/12/2001 3:52:04 PM #
With the Dual 68K/ARM Architecture it looks like they could get hardware that is upgradeable to Palm OS 5 before Palm OS 5 is ready - this is an interesting concept. And the difference in cost for Palm ($5/chip) could easily be amortized into the price of the unit...

RE: Palm OS ARM due in 1 year
bcombee @ 6/12/2001 6:54:30 PM #
They didn't announce a dual architecture -- the Dragonball MX1 only has an ARM core on it. The Super VZ only has a 68K core on it. The family similarities are due to the on-chip peripheral sets. You don't have to rewrite all of your device drivers and support code that you have on an existing Dragonball chip, but you do have to recompile it for the ARM instructions.

RE: Palm OS ARM due in 1 year
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/13/2001 10:56:34 AM #
Upgradable to Palm OS 5 before Palm OS 5 is ready? That's even worse than waiting because you are paying for the hardware in size and cost even before you are using it. Who cares if you can run Palm OS 5 if there is no software for it?

Kewl

I.M. Anonymous @ 6/12/2001 2:40:45 PM #
I wish I could get ahold of one of those babies, and just jam it in my 505! Ya think they'll relaunch the m500 series at all with the new Super VZ chip or what? I want it.

I wonder if that 200MHz will bring the battery life down to the same level as all the other Microsoft OS devices? I hope not.

Wonder when the "m705" will be out?

705
Galapagos @ 6/28/2002 8:10:40 AM #
I doubt Palm will call their OS5-Model m705, since there is a wireless OS4-Model called i705. This could cause confusion. They will have to come up with a name, that sets the new generation apart.

hmm

I.M. Anonymous @ 6/12/2001 3:40:36 PM #
i wonder if i can solder out my VZ chip and install a VZ1???

RE: hmm
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/12/2001 4:01:14 PM #
If not you, then www.palmpilotupgrade.com probably will...

RE: hmm
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/12/2001 4:01:15 PM #
No you cant!
The VZ is 144-pin TQFP or 144-pin MAP BGA
The Super VZ is 196-pin MAP BGA


RE: hmm
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/12/2001 4:03:20 PM #
Sorry, try: http://www.palmpilotupgrade.com/index.html

Who will need it with no software compatibility to Palm 4.0?

I.M. Anonymous @ 6/12/2001 7:24:10 PM #
Who will need its 200 MHz with no software compatibility to Palm 4.0? Imagine, all your software will not work on those new devices. In this case I prefer m505. Main power of Palm OS is its huge software library, I'm sure.

RE: Who will need it with no software compatibility to Palm 4.0?
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/12/2001 8:43:21 PM #
Nobody said it wasn't compatible with current Palm software. Wtf are you talking about.

RE: Who will need it with no software compatibility to Palm 4.0?
CarlJ @ 6/12/2001 10:20:06 PM #
I'm sure Palm doesn't underestimate the value of their vast library of third-party software. I expect that the ARM-based PalmOS will include a DragonBall emulator to seamlessly run existing apps, in much the same way that the early PowerPC Macs could run 68K Mac-based code.

Palm already has a terrific DragonBall emulator in POSE (the Palm OS Emulator, used by developers for running Palm apps on Win/Mac/Unix systems), which could actually be simplified greatly for this use -- to emulate PalmOS(dragon) under PalmOS(arm) you could simply run the app's code in the emulator, and when the app makes a system call, reformat the arguments and pass it off to the real PalmOS(arm) system call.

I hope you're right, Palm understands value of compatibility
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/13/2001 6:21:18 PM #
I hope you're right, Palm understands value of compatibility

RE: Who will need it with no software compatibility to Palm 4.0?
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/27/2002 8:23:21 PM #
Due to the underpowered Dragonball CPU, quite many of those Palm apps are really Palm / DragonBall apps, it won't work on anything but that particular CPU. Quite alot of apps need to make direct low level calls to the system in order for it to perform decently.

Devices with the ARM processors.....

I.M. Anonymous @ 6/12/2001 11:51:25 PM #
It's interesting that Motorola is making the next Dragonball ARM-based. ARM is a nice low-processor solution that's starting to show up in a lot of consumer devices, most notably this week's arrival of the Game Boy Advance. Palm has already mentioned in the past that compatability is a main concern and that they will insure that current apps will continue to run on the new devices.

Palm OS should support all ARMs

wilco @ 6/13/2001 10:54:26 AM #
Palm Os should not be held hostage by Motorola's Dragonball processors, the next version should support all ARMs not just Motorola's. This way, OS licensees can chose processors like Window CE's does. Palm OS 3/4 was hampered by slow processors and there's no alternative. It's like Apple with their 500MHz processors against Intel/AMD's 1,700/1,300MHz processors.
By the way, when Palm OS 5.0 launches fall 2002, 200Mhz will be slooow when compared to other ARM processors. I wonder if Moore's law apply to PDA processors.

RE: Palm OS should support all ARMs
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/13/2001 1:45:45 PM #
>>
Palm Os should not be held hostage by Motorola's Dragonball processors, the next version should support all ARMs not just Motorola's. This way, OS licensees can chose processors like Window CE's does.
<<

While I agree in theory, the reality is WinCE's differing processors has hampered development and caused user confusion. Even though it is *supposed* to be simple to recompile apps for each processor platform, it appears software developers usually favor one PDA (usually the iPAQ) over the others. And, while portability is a good thing to have in an OS in general, the end result in the PDA world is units that run the same OS but yet can't run each other's binaries. One of PalmOS's strengths has been the ability of users to beam apps back and forth to each other; a proliferation of different processors would break that convenience that a lot of PalmOS users take for granted.

>>
Palm OS 3/4 was hampered by slow processors and there's no alternative. It's like Apple with their 500MHz processors against Intel/AMD's 1,700/1,300MHz processors.
<<

Yes, but not exactly. Macs are held back not only by their expensive-but-anemic processors, they are held back by their ancient, creaky OS underpinnings. MacOS doesn't have preemptive multitasking, can't manage memory well, is overly burdened with a fat UI, etc. Hopefully, MacOS X fixes these. While PalmOS needs (much) work underneath, until now it has been held back by the DragonBall processor. Examples: PalmOS supports more than 8 MB of memory, but the VZ processor was the first to allow it to do so, because the previous DBs' DRAM controllers only handled 8MB. Same with color support: the VZ was the first to support color displays. The processor has long been the bottleneck of the Palm platform; that is only now starting to shift to the OS itself. And, having said that, a lot of PalmOS's limitations revolve around Palm's ancient license of the Kadak^H^H^H^H^H kernel. Things like multitasking/threading, etc. aren't done in PalmOS because told Palm they couldn't.

>>
By the way, when Palm OS 5.0 launches fall 2002, 200Mhz will be slooow when compared to other ARM processors. I wonder if Moore's law apply to PDA processors.
<<

Motorola has already said (see the link to the PalmInfoCenter article above!) there will be 2 DragonBall-ARM processors next year, using a smaller die process, which means among other things they'll be faster than the original. In fact, considering Palm has confirmed PalmOS 5 won't be out until late 2002, we may never see the DragonBall MX1 in anything but development units.



Waiting

CDODD @ 6/13/2001 6:43:23 PM #
I was drooling over the m505, but I I was drooling over the m505, but I think I may hold out for one of these new hot-rods!

RE: 200MHZ YEAH!

altema @ 6/14/2001 1:55:59 AM #
You are right in that we need to keep comparisons on a relative basis. And when we do, Pocket Excel comes up a little short. Try individual cell locking, or charting, or creating custom functions. Most people use about 5 to 10 functions on desktop Excel, and we find fault with MiniCalc because it has 80+ functions? I don't think so!
I use Excel to the extreme, often running my desktops into the ground and requiring reboots due to Excel memory leaks. The only lack which has affected me on the Palm is the inability to use macros. I do find it amusing though, that MiniCalc has better color support than Pocket Excel or even desktop Excel.

We should remember that CPU speed is also relative. WAY back in the early days, Motorola processors had a 4 to 1 speed advantage over Intel processors because an Intel chip would take several clock cycles to complete one round of tasks. For example, one clock cycle for screen refresh, one for RAM addressing, ect, ect. The early Motorola chips (like the 6502, 6502b) completed all processing in one clock cycle. This is why desktop computers like the Apple /// (had to be a desktop, if used as a laptop it would break your legs!) did not lose their raw speed advantage until the introduction of the 486. Those machines ran at 1.4 MHZ if I recall correctly, but they just did more work per clock cycle. A similar situation exists today when you compare the Dragonball to a Pocket PC processor. With the help of Windows, the Pocket PC finds itself at a disadvantage sometimes approaching 7.5 to 1. This is why the earlier versions of the Pocket PC running at 120MHZ seemed sluggish when compared to a 16 MHZ Palm OS device. Add AfterBurner or FastCPU to your Palm, and you can kick it up to the equivalent of a Pocket PC running at 291MHZ, and STILL have better battery life.

Finally...

I.M. Anonymous @ 6/14/2001 9:36:09 PM #
HA! 200MHz! Take that PocketPC! I'm so sick of hearing about PocketPC's faster processors... this should shut them up.

I thought Palm Chose T.I, not motorola

I.M. Anonymous @ 6/27/2002 6:35:26 PM #
http://www.palminfocenter.com/view_Story.asp?ID=3514

"While Palm Inc. has chosen processors from Texas Instruments to power its OS 5 handhelds, none of the other Palm OS licencees have announced who will supply their chips. Intel also makes ARM-based chips that could be in OS 5 devices. "

RE: I thought Palm Chose T.I, not motorola
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/27/2002 7:28:21 PM #
I think what he may have been getting at is that, Yes Palm are using T.I. chips, which at the moment do not seem to have this certification for OS 5, but can still be used. Where-as, Motorola has the certification should other PDA manufacturers want to use them, it will be easier for them to adapt. Obviously Palm did some of their own work to adapt the T.I. chips for their PDA.
I assume all the big names in chip makers will soon have this certification.

This is what I understand anyway. I hope that helps.

Bruce

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