Comments on: Palm to Announce ARM Plans Tomorrow

Palm is going to announce tomorrow its plans to work with Intel, Motorola, Texas Instruments, and ARM Holdings to transition the Palm OS to microprocessors with ARM technology, according to Cnet. All three chip companies are all expected to use Palm's software developer kit to create processors capable of running the Palm OS.
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The real question

I.M. Anonymous @ 7/23/2001 3:14:37 PM #
Ah, but the real question is if the upcoming OS 5.0 will run on the older Motorolla chips --

I can't imagine that Palm would shut all the m50x users out of the OS upgrade path, but you never know.

RE: Not a Real Answer
I.M. Anonymous @ 7/23/2001 3:25:56 PM #
A lot will depend on what the new features in OS 5 are. If just about everything requires a 200 MHz processor to run, releasing a version for the 33 MHz models is a waste of time.

I think Palm might be justified in not releasing a version for the current m500 series. By the time OS 5 hits the streets, the m500 will be over a year old. Microsoft has never blinked about releasing new OSs that year-old desktops couldn't run. It's not popular but it happens all the time.

Of course, if Palm releases the m510 and m515 next Spring and they can't run the new OS, that's a horse of a different color.

Here's an interesting question I just thought of: has Palm ever advertised that the m500 series is OS upgradable? If it hasn't, then you haven't been promised anything so you can't complain that Palm broke its promise. If it has, you have the right to demand a version for the m500 and m505.

RE: The real question
I.M. Anonymous @ 7/23/2001 3:31:56 PM #
i believe 5.0 is going to be for ARM chips only. i vaguely remember something at palmsource that palm would consider releasing 4.5 for older devices with added functionality.

RE: The real question
I.M. Anonymous @ 7/23/2001 9:17:09 PM #
510 and 515? Please elaborate.

RE: The real question
I.M. Anonymous @ 7/23/2001 10:11:51 PM #
I was only using those as examples of possible future handhelds.

OS 5.0 Features

RobZombie @ 7/23/2001 3:44:20 PM #
Has anyone heard Palm give a planned list of features for OS 5.0? Will it have built-in support for different screen resolutions? How much RAM will it support? What about Bluetooth? Will it be multi-tasking? What will they add that will actually need the faster processors? Anything you can tell me would be great.
RE: OS 5.0 Features
Snubolis @ 7/23/2001 4:15:55 PM #
Some of the already-announced features of OS 5 will be integrated support for high-res screen (well, higher than 160x160) and a soft-graffiti area, similar to the new Handera, and of course support for higher proessing speeds (ala ARM chips).

In response to the previous post, if the biggest advantages are these, I don't know why anyone would really want to u/g their m50x or other unit to OS5, since they wouldn't really gain any benefits. There's probably other features OS5 will have, but a 4.x u/g for those older devices would be much better.

Snubolis
Vancouver, Canada

RE: OS 5.0 Features
I.M. Anonymous @ 7/23/2001 4:54:50 PM #
Sure. Take a look at http://www.seapug.com/articles/palmsource2000.html
and scroll down to Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 21:06:44 -0800
Subject: [SeaPUG] Final PalmSource 2000 report

AriB


RE: OS 5.0 Features
I.M. Anonymous @ 7/23/2001 7:50:36 PM #
To clarify here, PalmOS added support for different screen resolutions in version 3.something (before 3.3, I know). BUT, unlike Windows, apps don't have the ability to "just take up whatever screen space there is." Thus, people just write apps to the 160x160 size unless they're specifically coding for the hi-res Sony or HandEra modes.

RE: OS 5.0 Features
Cheetah @ 7/23/2001 9:03:51 PM #
In the Palmsource link, one writer said:

So why is Palm switching processors? They listed several reasons for the switch to ARM:

better support for multimedia (like graphics and sound)
decreased power requirements with increased processing power (WOW!)
smaller and cheaper processor * more robust security (for user/system level processor instructions)
compatibility with dominant processor in the wireless industry and other industries


Increased processing power, with decreased power requirements? I would second the "WOW!"

Will programs need to be processor specific?

I.M. Anonymous @ 7/23/2001 3:54:48 PM #
In the future will palm shareware need to be compiled seperately for intel, motorola, etc...?

Think, People, Think!
I.M. Anonymous @ 7/23/2001 4:02:45 PM #
I'd like to put this idea through this quick test. Ask yourself, "Would that be an astonishingly stupid thing for Palm's management to do, almost certainly killing off the platform in a few months?" If the answer to that is "Yes", then I'd guess that Palm wouldn't do it.

RE: Will programs need to be processor specific?
I.M. Anonymous @ 7/23/2001 4:05:05 PM #
no i don't believe Palm would do this. I think that is why they are releasing a software development kit to the precessor manufacturers to ensure that the Palm OS will run across all of them without any problems

RE: Will programs need to be processor specific?
Snubolis @ 7/23/2001 4:13:09 PM #
I believe Palm will not make their OS brand-specific in regards to the processors, similar to how PCs can run Windows and have either Intel or AMD chipsets without a need for recompiling.

Last thing any of us want is the problems that surface with the ppc's in that regard. The amount of software available for palms could drop to ppc numbers with this strategy.

Snubolis
Vancouver, Canada

RE: Will programs need to be processor specific?
I.M. Anonymous @ 7/23/2001 4:38:51 PM #
think of ARM like a language. As long as Intel, Motorola and others speak the same ARM language everything will be ok. It's like in the PC world where both Pentium 4 and AMD Athlon speak the same x86 language. On the other hand, SH3 and MIPS -popular in the Windows CE world- are completely different which is one reason why Microsoft is having problems.
AriB

RE: Will programs need to be processor specific?
bcombee @ 7/23/2001 4:40:40 PM #
This transition to ARM is very similar to the transition on the Macintosh from 68K to PowerPC. Apple use a "fat binary" strategy, where applications could be compiled with both 68K and PPC code segments, with the 68K application running on older machines and the PPC used on newer ones. The PPC boxes could also run plain 68K software, but no 68K Macintoshes could run applications just built for the PPC.

I expect lots of software to stay with 68K builds only, running in emulated mode on the ARM-based Palms. Performance-oriented software, like games or databases, will probably be available in builds for both devices.

This won't kill shareware. Already, quite a few Palm OS games are available in color and B/W builds. It will make beaming less convienient, as ARM-based devices won't be able to send their ARM-compiled applications to older 68K Palm units. I don't see this being a major issue, however.

RE: emulation
Cheetah @ 7/23/2001 9:05:59 PM #
I believe you are right. Also Palmsource says that 5.0 will use emulation to run older programs. Hopefully the hit to performance won't be too great, and most programs will be re-written or re-compiled after minor tweaks to support the new ARM processor.

RE: Will programs need to be processor specific?
I.M. Anonymous @ 7/24/2001 4:51:33 AM #
Of course there will be a performance hit. But these processors are so much faster that one would imagine that emulated apps will run as fast as they did on 68k devices, if not faster.

RE: Will programs need to be processor specific?
Ed @ 7/24/2001 5:21:07 PM #
I wrote to Alan Kessler, general manager of Palm's Platform Solutions Group, and asked him whether different chips would require different versions of the same applications. He assured me that this wasn't the case. It will be a standard implementation.

So if any of you hear someone say that the Palm platform is going to have the same problem with different processors that the PocketPC one does, please correct them immediately and you can say you heard it from Alan Kessler.

---
News Editor
Palm Infocenter

Will older units become Obsolete?

JET8810 @ 7/23/2001 4:57:43 PM #
I currently use a Handera 330 which, IMHO, will last a long time or at least over a year. Will these faster, arm proccesors make the 33mhz ones a joke? The other main advantages to OS 5 will be support for higher res and soft graffiti, which my Handera already has. The Handera 330 is ahead of its time, meaning next year it will probably do most of the stuff the new Palms will do, but will the ARM processors force me to upgrade?

RE: Will older units become Obsolete?
I.M. Anonymous @ 7/23/2001 5:02:33 PM #
Depends on what you consider "obsolete". Everything your 330 does for you now, it will still do for you next year. It will still keep all your addresses, let you read ebooks, etc. But there will certainly be new applications released that can do new functions that your 330 won't be able to do. These will include high-end games, video, and more. If you decide you need these new functions, then your 330 will be obsolete. But if you don't, it will continue to serve you for years to come.

I was just talking to someone the other day who was still using a 486 running Windows 3.1 to handle all his e-mail. This setup does everything he needs so he doesn't consider it obsolete at all.

RE: Will older units become Obsolete?
I.M. Anonymous @ 7/23/2001 5:14:37 PM #
Yup. Basically, you got what today looks like a Pentium IV running at 1Ghz, but next year it'll look more like a 386 that belongs in some landfill. You're not alone. I bought the m505 when it came out knowing that it would be given away to some relative next year as I purchase the latest thing on the market.

Just consider it your contribution to the Gross Domestic Product!

JBH

RE: Will older units become Obsolete?
JET8810 @ 7/23/2001 5:17:28 PM #
Right. I am not a big gamer, my Handera has GREAT sound and to me, multimedia is a joke. That is why I dont need color either. Also, if the new Palms with OS 5 have higher res and virtual graffiti area, like the Handera 330, do u think they will choose the same setup as the Handera 330? I REALLY hope that would happen as more developers would update...:)

RE: Will older units become Obsolete?
JET8810 @ 7/23/2001 5:24:36 PM #
To JBH:
I hgonestly think that the Handera 330 is ahead of its time, which will give it the advantage of not becoming a so called "landfill".

RE: Will older units become Obsolete?
I.M. Anonymous @ 7/23/2001 8:30:58 PM #
JET, look at it like this -- The Palm you are carrying around is more powerful in some ways than the Apple IIc that I learned programming on back in about 1981. The Apple was "way ahead of its time" as well in its day. Things moved slower back then, so the Apple lasted a few years before it was truly "obsolete." When did that obsolecense really kick in? When there was an operating system change such that Apple felt that it was not advisable to continue to carry the baggage of the legacy system.

From what I have heard so far, the new OS will allow older programs to run in "emulation" mode. What does that take? Code, memory, processor overhead, etc. In other words, Palm will be attempting to carry the baggage of the legacy system into the new system -- for a little while. However, memory and processor horsepower comes at a premium in these small devices. Therefore, watch for that day -- very soon -- when the legacy system is scrapped.

Yes, the Handera is a very cool device. It will continue to serve you well. However, a year from now, I would bet that you will be considering the next purchase option because you'll want to move away from programs that have to run in emulation mode. That's just a guess. Only time will tell.

I do hope that Handera makes it big. I have no bone to pick with them. In many ways, the 330 makes my m505 look like a joke. They have really cool stuff that is way ahead of its time. Unfortunately, I see a lot of similarities between Handera and one other former manufacturer from Iowa -- Dussenburg.

JBH

HandEra = Edsel
I.M. Anonymous @ 7/23/2001 9:23:02 PM #
nt

Will my Sony CLIE become "Obsolete"?

I.M. Anonymous @ 7/23/2001 7:23:21 PM #
I currently use a CLIE N710C which, IMHO, will last a long time or at least over a year. Will these faster, arm proccesors make the 33mhz ones a joke? The other main advantages to OS 5 will be support for higher res and fantastic color, which my N710C already has. The N710C is ahead of its time, meaning next year it will probably do most of the stuff the new Palms will do, but will the ARM processors force me to upgrade?


I am a big gamer, my CLIE has GREAT sound and to me, multimedia is essential. That is why I also need color. Also, if the new Palms with OS 5 have higher res and brilliant sound and Jog Dial support, like the CLIE N710C, do u think they will choose the same setup as the CLIE N710C? I REALLY hope that would happen as more developers would update...:)


I honestly think that the Sony CLIE N710C is ahead of its time, which will give it the advantage of not becoming a so called "landfill".



RE: Will my Sony CLIE become
fleegle @ 7/23/2001 8:34:54 PM #
Dude,

Quit "plagiarizing!" OK. It really isn't plagiarism but, sheesh, all you did was use copy previous posts and substitute "CLIE N710C" where "Handera 330" existed. :)



This is called sarcasm, buddy
I.M. Anonymous @ 7/23/2001 9:18:07 PM #
They guy who posted the original "Will my..." message was just using it as an excuse to say how wonderful he thought his Handera is. The second post is making fun of how silly the previous thread was. Take a look.

RE: Will my Sony CLIE become
fleegle @ 7/23/2001 9:31:49 PM #
Oh! OK. I get it. I really don't think he was using the post to say how wonderful it (the HandEra 330) was. But, who knows. I was one of those who actually looked to see if "gullible" really wasn't in the dictionary! ;-)

RE: Will my Sony CLIE become
GrouchoMarx @ 7/24/2001 3:17:58 AM #
Well, whatever the original intent of the post, the point stands that the HandEra 330 and Sony CLIE 701c are BOTH super-cool devices that push the platform farther than any other company. They go in slightly different directions, but they both do very impressive stuff.

Palm has said that they do intend to ship Dragonball and ARM based devices at the same time, at least for a while, and their emulation setup is kinda weird. It's half emulation, half direct translation, with OS API calls actually running as native code. I'm not sure how it actually works, but it certainly sounds cool if they can pull it off.

I expect Dragonball-compiled software to remain on the market for a long time. Fat binaries may become common, but if supporting both is simply a matter of pressing the compile button twice, then I expect most mainstream (read: commercial) apps will just have dual versions. Yes, ARM-compiled apps won't run on the Dragonballs but I suspect that programs that will only be available in ARM format wouldn't be useful on a Dragonball anyway. (High-end video and audio, for instance.)

As for your HandEra 330 / CLIE / m505 being "obsolete" in a year, ARM chips won't be changing the dynamic that quickly. One of the really nice things about Palms is that they don't have a planned obsolescence to them the way Windows and PCs do. Just like the previous poster's friend with the 486 (and my parents with their 486), if it does what you want it to, then it's not obsolete. If you want the latest and greatest, then the top of the line 12 months ago (Palm IIIc and IIIxe) is "obsolete" already compared to the m505, CLIE, and HandEra. Of course, if you don't NEED high res or an expansion slot, then the IIIxe refurbs are one of the best buys you can get today. Also witness the stunning success of the bells-and-whistles impotent m100.

For the PIC / PalmStation crowd, this year's stuff will be obsolete next year regardless of what comes out, because we like having new cool toys. We're like that. :-) For normal people, I dare say a PDA has a longer life span than a PC does currently.

--Larry Garfield

RE: Will my Sony CLIE become
I.M. Anonymous @ 7/24/2001 6:30:59 AM #
It's becoming all too obvious that some CLIE N710C owners have serious HandEra envy. You completely misinterpreted the original poster's message. All he was asking about was how quickly he was going to have to upgrade.

Another great Palm thread here:

I.M. Anonymous @ 7/23/2001 9:26:09 PM #
Hope you don't mind the link, Ed.


http://www.palmstation.com/view_article.py?article=4486&flat_mode=1


Palm, PocketPC, all your "X" are belong to me, and a whole lot more. Internet at it's best!

RE: Another great Palm thread
Ed @ 7/23/2001 9:34:02 PM #
Exactly what makes this thread on PalmStation great? I'm not knocking Hal's site but the comments on that page are just some people saying rude things to each other. As far as I'm concerned, that's not interesting or useful.

I'd like you to take a look at that thread as an example of how Internet conversations can go badly wrong. If I can possibly prevent it, I'll make sure that never happens here.

I'd like to remind you of part of the rules for posting comments on this site:

  • Inflammatory, Inappropriate, Illegal, or Offensive comments may be moderated/deleted.
This is on the page where you write your comments, along with a few other rules.

This is not the place to carry out flame wars. Comments posted for no other reason than to attack another reader will be deleted. Obvious flamebait will be also deleted. I consider flamebait to be anything posted for no other reason than the author knows it will set off an argument.

I'm quite certain that soon after I post this, someone will call me a Nazi. The same thing happens whenever I point out that this site has rules. It's OK, I'm used to it by now. But it turns out that the vast majority of people who read this site aren't interested in personal squabbles and would prefer they not have to see them. This site is here to serve the largest number of people possible, not the very few who enjoy sniping at other people.

I'm bringing this up because there have been quite a few comments posted today that were deleted because they were personal attacks on one reader or another. I'm not saying that you can't disagree or even argue. If you disagree with what someone is saying, fine. Post facts to dispute them. But writing things that you know aren't true because you have come up with a personal grudge against someone won't be allowed.

If you don't like this rule, you have two choices. You can go somewhere else or you can write to Ryan and try to get me fired. You can reach him at webmaster@palminfocenter.com.

I really wish I could lock all of you in a room and let you hash things out. For one, I'll bet the conversations would be a lot more polite because very few people will say in person the rude things they say when they are hiding behind the "I.M. Anonymous". And don't kid yourselves, you are hiding.

---
News Editor
Palm Infocenter

RE: Another great Palm thread here: Ed you're a ***********
I.M. Anonymous @ 7/23/2001 10:18:11 PM #
You censored my post and I think you're a ******** *****. I'd like to get you alone in a room for 30 seconds so I could **** your *** and then ******** you. And you know I would too. If you ever try to ***** with me again, I'll *********** your ****. I.m going to call Ryan and tell him I think you're a ************** and you deserve to be ********. Twice.

XXOO,
Twinkie

RE: Another great Palm thread here:
I.M. Anonymous @ 7/23/2001 10:24:41 PM #
;-)


XXOO,
Twinkie

RE: Another great Palm thread
Ed @ 7/23/2001 10:25:40 PM #
You're right and I feel really bad about it. To make it up, here are the words I "censored" out of the previous comment. Starting with the title:

Comedian
great
guy
shake
hand
kiss
talk
bless
name
prince of a fellow
promoted

All joking aside, I don't censor individual words. If you can't get your thoughts out without swearing, I just delete your comment. I don't have that kind of time.

---
News Editor
Palm Infocenter

RE: Another great Palm thread here:
nickgold @ 7/23/2001 10:28:50 PM #
Big up Mister Ed! Rules are okay, if the organization setting the rules is worthy of respect. Palminfocenter.com is just such an organization. We should worship it, and become brothers and sisters of Palminfocenter.com. We should not squabble over who's Palm is best. Nay, we should all vociferously unite AGAINST the EVIL that is... I daren't even say it. M- M- Micro$oft!!! :O

Yes, that's right folks. Now is the time for the united front. Palm RULES because of its diversity. So what if the lame MicroClones have their shiny iPaq. We have Clies... Handsprings... TRGs (man I so old skool)... Palms... And all the random fly stuff like Kyocera and such. You got your iPaq?! STEP THA HECK BACK! Cuz dat stuff is whack.

United we stand, divided we... Well, whine a lot, and get annoying, and have to get censored by Ed. See folks, s/he doesn't really LIKE having to do that, and darn it, we just shouldn't have to stoop to those levels. Now, if some iPaq Kid comes on here and tries to front, WE DESCEND. And rip them to bits. As a united front, a Palm-powered army! Bickering BE GONE! With yee. And $hit.

RE: Another great Palm thread here:
Coyote67 @ 7/23/2001 11:59:21 PM #
Kids, don't do drugs...mmkay?

OH my god...becky, look at her....Prism.

Mulitple CPU vendors = Good Stuff

GrouchoMarx @ 7/24/2001 3:28:43 AM #
If Palm keeps the platform open enough that several chip makers can all make usable CPUs, that's good news. That means Motorola, Intel, TI, and whoever else can all fight with each other for Palm's, Handspring's, Sony's, and HandEra's business. That brings the price of the CPU down, which brings the price of the device down or the power up, or both. Either way, we win.

--Larry Garfield

RE: Mulitple CPU vendors = Good Stuff
EdwardGreen @ 7/24/2001 7:53:53 AM #
Agreed.

-
kHiTeDev

m515 m130

I.M. Anonymous @ 2/21/2002 10:32:08 AM #
Any ideas where these ideas came from? They're not mentioned on palm's website ANYWHERE, yet word of them is spreading on the web.

RE: m515 m130
Ed @ 2/21/2002 10:38:18 AM #
I'm not sure why you posted this on an article from July 2001 but you can find out more about both of these upcoming models here:
www.palminfocenter.com/view_Story.asp?ID=3001

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News Editor
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