Comments on: Lawsuit Alleges Palms Fry PCs
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RE: Here we go again
My Dell Latitude motherboard got fried last week!
RE: My Dell Latitude motherboard got fried last week!
RE: My Dell Latitude motherboard got fried last week!
Dells must be allergic to the presence of Palms...LOL!!
RE: My Dell Latitude motherboard got fried last week!
RE: My Dell Latitude motherboard got fried last week!
---
doug@tekno.nu
RE: My Dell Latitude motherboard got fried last week!
RE: My Dell Latitude motherboard got fried last week!
RE: My Dell Latitude motherboard got fried last week!
________________________________________
I've been working with computers for 1/4 of my life. Beat that.
destroyed motherboard
RE: destroyed motherboard
RE: destroyed motherboard
RE: destroyed motherboard
RE: destroyed motherboard
Platinum reboots my system
Thank you to whoever stole my Visor, I can now use a stable OS on my machine!
RE: destroyed motherboard
Guess I'll have to get a USB card and not sync to the Dell. (Which means I have to hope like hell it doesn't to the same thing to my sturdy old Vaio notebook.) Sigh.
nbl
No Problem | Dell Inspiron 8000
Dell & Edge
it's DELL's fault
RE: it's DELL's fault
Can't we all just get along?
Power Up!
Fry them all!
(1) Don't people know that static shock hurts when you touch a doorknob? Wouldn't that make people ground themselves?
(2) Palm didn't design the cradle to be hot-swappable, although they knew it would be used that way, and encouraged it.
(3) PC motherboard manufacturers designed faulty ports knowing that they are susceptible to static.
Regarding (2), I think Handspring, Handera, Landware and anyone else who makes a cradle-like device has something to worry about.
I think that even in the PocketPC world there is a problem here.
Regarding (3), in the old days zapping a serial port meant replacing a 1488/1489 chip and everything worked. Today not only does
the port get fried, but the PC does too! Are the MB manufacturers to cheap to build a better port (rhetorical question)?
RE: Fry them all!
Having to reboot twice whenever you wish to HotSync would be sheer, rampant idiocy.
-aardvarko
webmaster at aardvarko dot com
http://aardvarko.com
RE: Fry them all!
Of course they intended it to be hot-swappable, and encouraged it.
Sue Dell for defamation!
-Static killed my eyemodule2
RE: Sue Dell for defamation!
I agree!
I came home last night and right on the news was a quick blurb about how Palm devices can potentially fry your computer.
No more details given.
This kind of crap can serioulsy damage Palms reputation.
I have connected to MANY different kinds of computers with no problem. If it is happening on Dell computers, than it is DELL's PROBLEM.
Sue em for the shirts on thier backs!
RE: Sue Dell for defamation!
RE: Sue Dell for defamation!
Dell makes the ugliest, unoriginal, bland...in other words crap computers. When you have crap, the only way you can sell crap is to offer other stuff and incentives. ( you can't polish a turd)My personal computer is NOT a Dell. this is what they suckered my boss into buying us, so we have to work with them. My Palms sync fine with the computers I use them with, IBM thinkpad, Apple iBook, and 3 different iMacs.
The obvious issue is Dell is at fault. Bring it on, this is not Palm's issue.
Sounds familar
OH my god...becky, look at her....Prism.
RE: Sue Dell for defamation!
-Greg
I have a Dell. I have a Palm. No problems here.
RE: I have a Dell. I have a Palm. No problems here.
RE: I have a Dell. I have a Palm. No problems here.
I've setup my V, Vx, and 505 at work and home.
No problem.
I'm not saying this isn't a potential problem, just that it must be rare.
RE: I have a Dell. I have a Palm. No problems here.
Absolutely no problem !!
my serial ports were fried by Palm Vx
RE: my serial ports were fried by Palm Vx
Had a palm III that worked great, upgraded to a Vx. It Synced the first time great. The next time it fried the ports on my mother board. I went back and forth with Dell and Palm for two weeks. Both not taking any responsibility in the begining.
In the end Palm sent me an adapter that goes between the Sync cable and the computer to stop static discharge. (no charge) Dell repalced my mother board under warranty at no charge.
RE: my serial ports were fried by Palm Vx
RE: my serial ports were fried by Palm Vx
RE: my serial ports were fried by Palm V
Hope you lot are kidding
I serioiusly doubt that any hotsyncing activity can cause any sort of heat increase anywhere in the PC, not even the CPU. Ports have their own controllers, be it USB or Serial. These are the chips burdened with the comms. The actual CPU in the PC only co-ordinates the data exchange to and from the ports, but it doesn't handle them directly.
RE: Hope you lot are kidding
RE: Hope you lot are kidding
I am the original poster with the Dell Latitude and
Cheerios caused my car accident
Cheerios caused my accident. I'm calling my lawyer like any dumb American should do.
RE: Hope you lot are kidding
Palm loves Dell
My Palm has got along with my Dell great. I think the problem is with the 505 and the Dell. Someone should jump on this now, maybe put a warning on the new 505's.
Saying may not be compatible with your computer {Dell}. I would be livid if i just bought my 505. I'm planning on buying one for x-mas,now for sure that's on hold.
No problems at all
No problems here...
This is not DELL bringing the lawsuit!!!!! RFA!!!!!
This is a weird problem
Does this problem only happen to people who think their docking station is hotswapable? (e.g. they plugin-out when the PC is still on?)
I really don't understand how this could happen. It's kind of ridiculous I think personally. My pocketPC (Jornada 545) doesn't give me problems (it's USB).
I'm surprised too, because Palm and Dell are both very successful companies. It's silly that such a routine task of docking causes... well... fire. Well at least maybe you could cook a hot dog.
As for that wavy dell monitor? You were joking... right???? :-O
Weird
Me too
Another Fried Serial Port
RE: Another Fried Serial Port
all is well
Is this a class action or just a few unlucky lemons?
Hmmmmm
Never a problem during hot sync--ever--not even any minor glitches. Guess I'll be cautious from now
on and unplug the cradle during hot sync. Don't want to take a chance on damaging my toys, but no
real reason to be wary either, other than all these scare stories.
Palm 505
We have had 3 computers go down with the hoysync. Who do we need to talk to, so that we can fix or get our money back.
PC Tech under the gun
PALM m505? or HPC?
one more dilema... under 18 so there is a lack of credit card(for omnisky monthly plan) im basically running of off ATT prepaid cellular. somebody pleeaassee help me out here!
thanx a bunch,
kris
ps sorry about the verbosity, i just really needed to get my POV accross
You might think it is BS until it happens to you.
So far the Palm V units have damaged 6 motherboards through static electricity. The com ports become damaged and have to be replaced (since they com port is on the motherboard the whole MB has to be scrapped).
When I called Palm they stated that they haven't even heard of this problem.
Maybe 1 port can go bad or even 2 but not 6 different machines. They range from Gateway machines to custom built Abit units.
This has also happened to a friend of mine who has a Dell (twice).
Yeah Palm - keep your head in the sand and I'll take my business elsewhere.
RE: You might think it is BS until it happens to you.
-Tek
RE: You might think it is BS until it happens to you.
I suffered a damaged port and subsequently a fried computer
After several months of using my Palm Vx and Hotsyncing via a direct serial connection, I lost use of the COM port to which the cradle was connected. Though frustrated, I chalked it up to a sub par motherboard and simply plugged the cable in to the next port. A couple of months later, as I sat my Palm Vx into its cradle for a Hotsync, the cradle light dimmed and my Palm went out. I could not turn it back on. After contacting customer support, and having to carry out the dreaded hard reset, I regained function of my Palm. Though I lost everything in it, I drew comfort from having most of my info on my computer, just a Hotsync away, or so I thought. When I went to Hotsync, I found that the COM port, the last functioning one, was no longer functioning. I continued to charge my Palm via the cradle despite my inability to Hotsync. A few weeks later, I came home to find my computer out, never to turn on again. The motherboard had been fried, the hard drive had irreparable damage as did my video card. I lost everything!!! Curious as to the cause and hoping to prevent this from happening again, I had an electrician check the house, I replaced my surge protector, and questioned endlessly the service people who pronounced my PC dead. No definite source of the problem ever arose. Never did I suspect that the damned cradle may have a role in the loss of my computer and worse yet, my data.
How can I get in touch with the Pinnacle Law Group in charge of the lawsuit?
Two Down -- 28 to Go??
In the last weeks 2 machines have had serial ports go -- I worked on one of them. Palm told me they had never heard of the problem and then suggested I switch Com ports.
How long until the other ports/machines go?
Does anyone know how I can contact the
Pinnacle Law Group to tell them my story?
I think for now I will advise all the administrators working on these machines to ground themselves before synching. Any other thoughts?
Topher -- macs2@shaw.ca
Palms Fry PC's
Was there a class action suit filed? Does anyone know from where I can get further information?
Thanks, Norma
RE: Palms Fry PC's
Andrew August
Pinnacle Law Group
425 California St # 1800
San Francisco, CA 94104
(415) 394-5700 Phone
Fried motherboard
Additional problems to report: immediately after the motherboard burned, my handheld had a message indicating "fatal error--reset." I had to do a hard reset, thereby losing all data on the handheld. I had everything backed up on my PC, however, now I am unable to HotSync.
I've used Palm.com Chat technical assistance on 4 separate occasions. Every single time that I tell them that I suspect that the Palm may have burned the motherboard, they disconnect me from the chat. And all of the Palm Customer Service reps that I spoke to refuse to comment on the issue, and refer me to Palm Corporate Headquarters.
Anyone got ideas as to how to proceed? How can I obtain information on the Pinnacle class action suit against Palm for this issue?
Palm IIIe
Just my 2 cents.
Visor Edge / Dell Dimension
I have checked my electrical outlet (properly grounded) removed a UPS from the system uninstalled/reinstalled/cleaned registry used the Remove Hardware wizard updated Windows 2000 with all the latest drivers. I'll get it working for a day or two, and then get another blackout that renders the USB port useless again.
About ready to punt the organizer and go back to paper.
RE: Visor Edge / Dell Dimension
palm Vx and Dell Dimension
Palm V and Gateway
It was pretty clear to me from my conversation with several Palm tech reps that they knew they had a problem, but management had decided not to accept the responsibility for it. The reps were in a difficult spot because there was nothing they could do.
We have learned to use our Palm Vx by not plugging in the charger at the same time the cradle is connected to the serial port. It's very inconvenient because you have to shut down the computer to disconnect the serial connector.
PC Fried
How and why they fry...
I just spent a couple of hours looking into this because my boss has an old Palm V that fried his motherboard twice. Another co-worker frequently syncs his palm on her machine and is concerned that when she gets a new machine it will have problems.
A comment a ways back there hit the nail on the head "Palm didn't design the cradle to be hot-swappable".
How do you design something to be hot-swappable (or "Hot plugable")? The first and most important rule is to make sure that you have contact between the ground conductors of the two devices before any other conductors make contact. Look at your USB cables- the whole outside of the connector is ground, while the "hot" signals are up inside. On network equipment that's "hot-pluggable" the ground pins are longer than the signal pins in the backplane connector so that they make the first contact.
Why is this so important? Any two conductors that are not electrically connected will have some voltage potential between them. Any conductor not connected to ground will have some potential relative to ground. This goes for obvious conductors like pieces of metal but also for less obvious ones like the moisture on the surface of a piece of plastic or the moisture in your body.
CMOS semiconductors are very sensitive to voltage. An excessively high voltage across the power and ground of a CMOS IC will destroy it very quickly. An excessive voltage on an input or output pin will also destroy it because the inputs and outputs are connected to the power and ground of the chip using "protection" diodes.
Standard protection diodes can conduct very little current before they are damaged. Making them able to conduct more current requires them to be physically larger, which takes up more area on the die and consequently costs more.
IC's designed as interface drivers for external devices typically have larger protection diodes to allow them to conduct more current without damage. They are rated for the static charge voltage that they can dissipate safely from a human body.
The human body is modeled as a 100pF capacitor discharging through a 1500-ohm resistor. Based on this model, 95% of the charge will be discharged into a "hard" ground within 150 ns.
Most ESD rated devices are classified at one of three levels: 1500 V, 8000 V, or 15000 V, all based on the "HBM" or Human Body Model. At 1500V, you are storing 112.5 micro-joules of energy. At 8 kV, it's 3.2 milli-joules, and at 15 kV it's 11.25 milli-joules.
Although these are not large numbers, they are big enough. At 1.5 kV the initial instantaneous current discharged is 1 Amp. For 8 kV it's over 5 amps, and at 15 kV it's 10 amps. For comparison, a normal 60 watt light bulb draws 0.5 Amps.
So let's say that you are holding a device in your hand such that you are touching the chassis ground on it and you have a static charge of 1000 volts on your body. Lets figure that it is a battery powered device with a power supply voltage and signal voltage of 2.5V.
When you go to plug this device into another piece of electronics that is grounded to earth-ground, there is a potential difference of 1000V between the two devices, and 1002.5 V between the signal outputs and the inputs on the grounded item.
If you first connect the grounds on the two items, the charge will dissipate through a non-destructive path and things should be fine. If you connect the signal lines first, the charge will dissipate through them and things could be very bad. If the device you connect to has 1500V ESD protection, you will probably not hurt it, but it's still possible to hurt the device you were holding in your hand.
If you touch the chassis of your computer first, you are again dissipating the charge through a non-destructive path.
So why are some Palm V's frying some motherboards, some of the time? The EIA-232 (formerly RS-232) standard does not support hot-plugging and does not require ESD protection. This was intended as a method for connecting devices together while they were turned off and leaving them connected for a long time.
Since the DB-9 or DB-25 ports are exposed on the back of the computer, it it common sense that the manufacturer of the computer should incorporate some level of ESD protection into them. I just took a look at a older Micron PC here at work and found that it uses the National Semiconductor DS14185 serial port driver chip, which incorporates 1500V ESD protection (and costs less than 20 cents in volume).
When you connect your Palm cradle to the computer, you are using this port as it was intended, but putting the Palm in the cradle is a different story. The Palm cradle directly connects the serial port to the pins in the cradle. The pins are arranged in a nice neat row in the connector, and mate with the contacts on the back of your Palm.
By placing the Palm in the cradle, you are effectively hot-plugging it into the serial port. Since the contacts are all the same length and position, there is no assurance that the ground will make contact first. (It's on the far right, so it will make contact first some of the time with most users).
Okay, so it's not really a good idea. Howcumb it worked fine with the old models and only really started causeing a fuss with the Palm V?
First, there are reports of this problem with other models, including those from other makers. They are pretty isolated though. There are many more reports of it with the Palm V and Vx. So what's different?
For one thing, the case is different. The Palm V has an aluminum case where all the previous models were plastic. Could this be it? Well, I checked pretty thoroughly and determined that the case is not electrically connected to the circuits inside, so by itself this is not the issue. The case is also finished with a very hard non-conductive material, so I actually had to file off the finish on a corner in order to get a connection to my ohmeter.
What about the battery charger? Yes, there's a battery charger connected to the cradle, but it shares the ground reference of the serial port, so it should not cause a problem. Besides, the Palm IIIc and Palm VII also had chargers and no one is reporting extraordinary problems with either of them.
What else is different? The Palm V is tauted as being exceptionally thin, and it is. As a consequence, it is much easier to make contact with the pads on the hotsync connector during normal handling of the device. All the old plastic case models had a much deeper recess for the hotsync connector, so you were less prone to touching it with your hands or clothing.
So what happens if you touch the contacts? Whatever charge is on your body is shared with your Palm. You don't generally hurt it because it doesn't take much charge transfer to bring it up to the same potential as your body so there's never a lot of current moving.
The problem is that now your Palm's internal "ground" is at hundreds to thousands of volts relative to earth ground. Your PC is grounded to earth ground. You go to put the unit in the cradle and the ground pin makes contact first. Everything's fine. If you go to put it in and another pin make contact first, now you are testing the ESD dissipation of the RS-232 driver in your PC.
Here's an interesting issue: The ESD rating on the driver chip is based on the "Human Body Model", which includes a 100 pF cap and 1500 ohm resistor. The charge stored in your palm will not have the same behavior. I would guess that the capacitance is much less but the resistance will also be much less, so there could be even higher instantaneous current levels even if the total energy stored is much less.
Anyway, in most climates at most times you wouldn't be building up 15kV of static potential, but occasionally you might. More often, it's going to be hundreds of volts. When you connect your Palm and discharge the stored charge in the device into the ESD protection diodes in the driver chip, they can usually handle it. Over time though, they will be degraded by the repeated small discharges, eventually leading to device failure.
Whatever current is discharged has to go somewhere. That somewhere is ground, but the path could be interesting depending on what pin it comes in on. It is easily possible that the discharge current could pass from the RS-232 driver chip to other chips and cause more widespread damage. The CPU chips on the newest computers are far more sensitive to high voltages than anything that's ever been made before, so it doesn't take much to fry them.
What about more recent models of the Palm that are as slim as the V/Vx? If you look at them, they've changed the hotsync connector so that all of the contacts are much smaller and they've added some retaining hooks to the cradle that may also be grounded. The hooks definitely make contact before anything else, so if they are grounded they've fixed the problem. I will investigate this further.
The other big change is the overwhelming predominance of USB connections instead of classic serial. As mentioned before, USB is designed as a hot-plug interface and so has much greater ESD tolerance. Depending on what the circuitry inside the USB cradle is like, there may be a possibility of damaging the cradle, but that's Palm's problem entirely.
And why is it that some people never have a problem but others do, and some have a problem after a year, while others have it much sooner?
Many things go into static charge buildup: The clothes you wear, your shoes, the material on your chair, the floor under you, the humidity in the air, your skin's moisture content. Add the variability in handling the Palm device and and you already have a great range of possible scenarios. And remember that the ESD resistance of the driver in your computer degrades with repeated low-level discharges.
So in summary, Palm designed their handhelds to use the RS-232 interface in a way that it was never designed to be used. It caught up to them in the V/Vx models. They've since changed the designs so that they are less susceptible to the circumstances which lead to catastrophic failures. Some PC motherboards are more susceptible to failures caused by Palms than others, depending on the ESD protection level of the RS-232 drivers used.
Most people are using USB cradles now anyway, so it's going to soon be forgotten.
-Mike Antoniak
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Here we go again