Comments on: Handspring to Announce Visor Pro and Neo

The Pro has twice as much RAM as any Palm ever had and its only $300. That's $30 less than the m500 and the Pro is better. What's over-priced about that?

still having trouble with that posting-while-logged-in thing (ryan, help?).
- kezza

Current uses for Memory Stick:
Storage

Current uses for Springboard:
Storage
Wireless networking
Digital camera
Mobile phone
Presenter-to-Go
Use CF or SmartMedia
ETC

In some areas, Sony and Palm are still playing catch-up to Handspring. Putting a memory Springboard in adds the space to RAM. There's no ****ing around with software written by some guy in Japan that sort of runs programs from the card. It just works. PowerRun is trying to do the same thing Springboards have been able to do for years.

Color Ipaq is expensive because it's in an entirely different class from Visor. If you compare it to the most expensive model of Sony, you're more or less making an equal comparison. But to get 256MB of Memory Stick, well, try your luck. I don't think it exists yet. 128MB of SD used in Palm costs $180 at least. So use your brain or your Palm, $180 for 128MB of SD, $100 for 256MB of CF, do the math.

On the other hand, if you wanna save money and still get a great machine capable of everything Palm does, plus built-in MP3 player, infinite expansion capability supported by standard CF and PCMCIA industries, then consider black and white Ipaq. You can get it for $99.

Now can we tell Handspring is going to disappear pretty soon? Yes. It's funny how people argue Handspring is trying to dominate low-end Palm market. Well, who's going to spend $100 on a low-end palm, then spend $200 on buying an expensive handspring springboard. The fact is, average users will never spend money on external springboard if they just need a cheap organizer. People who will use PDA like a compact-size notebook PC will look for something more powerful, more capable, more expandable with industry-supported standard...Handspring will never get to that point.

Handspring recently has moved to PDA/Wireless Phone market. In another words, they already gave up on their pure PDA organizer running on Palm. Instead, they will use Palm OS to build a communication device, not an electronic organizer, not a powerful compact-size laptop. That spells the end of a large Palm device company.

The problem though, when you spend $300 or above to buy a PDA, you don't want to be limited with expansion options. CF is the industry-standard. How many GPS module can you find for SD or MS? There are at least 7 or 8 for CF. Can you use Sony or Palm PDA with Zip drive, Jazz drive, CDRom? No. But possible with PocketPC.

The bottom line is, with large hardware memory space, you can save more data. That's the bottom line. I used to use Mapopolis for Palm as a mapping software. Its LA county map is around 5MB, about the same size as the one on PocketPC. However, the one for PocketPC is in color. That makes a big difference.

I don't care how big the program is, as long as 1)they work well. Oh, boy, programs for PocketPC works like charm, never had to hard-reset once in 2 months. 2)I have enough hardware memory space to store thse programs. 3)the memory option is cheap.

If you think you can store more data on a 128MB space than on my 256MB. You're cheating yourself. And now, let's drop the topic of 16MB, shall we?

As far as springboard modules, give us a couple of products that are under $100. Besides, do you know how much CF ethernet/modem cost? $40. Any more questions?

Now let's look at your SpringBoard for less than $100,

>Handspring Modem Springboard - $39.99 at Amazon.com

CF Modem about the same price

>Handspring VisorPhone (cell phone) - $49.99 at http://www.handspring.com/products/visorphone/index.jhtml"

Nothing for PocketPC yet. But guess why HS is dumping VisorPhone for $0?

>Handspring
OmniRemote Universal Remote Control - $59.95

Universal Remote Software, ~$10

>StepKeeper Pedometer - $49.95

Is this a game? And they put it on a separate module? Is there any more intelligent way of making money? So lame...Don't even start comparing games on Palm and PocketPC...

>Merriam-Webster Dictionary - $49.95

Oxford Dictionary - $19

>Star Trek BookPak - $45.50
FlashPlus Compact Flash Module - $49.90 (plug standard CF cards into this one)
MemPlug CF Module - $49.95 (CF cards go in this one too)
MemPluc Smart Media Module - $49.95 (SM cards go in this one)

Why do you need all these adapter modules if your intention is to use CF or SM?

>Memory Access (Memory, Vibrating and LED Alarms) - $44.50

Another software on HS module? Free with Ipaq.

>dbNow Deluxe Module - $49.99

Alright, stop putting software on module. It's not only a rip-off, also extremely inconvenient to switch between different modules for different softwares.

>MyVox Voice Recorder - $69.95

Built-in in the PocketPC. PocketPC 2002 has built-in voice recoginition. It will be a built-in feature for new ipaq.

Now bluetooth? New Ipaq 38xx will have bluetooth built-in.

Beam between Palm and PocketPC? Try Peacepro! It works wonder.

Actually, if Palm OS has a better product, I would be posting in PocketPC forum, too. The point is to let peopole know what's out there.

Yes. This is not about PocketPC. This is about how pathetic new HS models are. It doesn't even compare to old Palms.

By the way, when you have to use HS adapter to use industry-standard CF, you call yourself using whatever media? How ironic!

"This is exactly the point of this discussion: it shows how little you know about PocketPC and the innovative industry of PocketPC."

Actually if anyone takes the time to read this whole thread, the fact that you didn't/can't respond to my call on your facts will be illustrated. The last line of my previous post asked you to give me an example of how infinately expandable the PocketPC is beyond the springboard. Where's my examples? Expanding Modems and memory is not infinatley expanding, it's buzzword jockying. The words "infinately expandable" sell products to Microsoft zombies/users. You asked for springboards under $100 and I gave you dozen.

"By the way, when you have to use HS adapter to use industry-standard CF, you call yourself using whatever media? How ironic! "

Since when is CF industry-standard? Because you or some magazine writer stamped it the "industry-standard"? How closed minded. This again illustrates what infinately expandable really means. It means you can use the same expansion slot, the springboard slot, with next year's industry standard Smart Media, or the year after that's new memory media that everyone like you will embrace as the "industry standard".

Right now IrDA is the "industry standard" for passing data between PDAs. If the press has their way, there'll be a big fight between IrDA and Bluetooth to see who's the next "industry standard." Since I own a Handspring, I don't care who wins. If Bluetooth becomes popular, I can just buy the new "industry-standard" springboard and continue using the PDA I've been using for over a year now.

So when PocketPC 2002 comes out with Bluetooth support, will they have some way to plug in a Bluetooth transceiver? Probably not. And if they do it'll probably be made by Microsoft and therefor only work with products made by Microsoft partners who can work with Microsoft's version of Bluetooth.

Looks like your going to have to fork out another $450 for your "superior" product when that happens.

This is a public forum, if your going to just be touting unbased facts about the oh-so-wonderful PocketPC do it in a PocketPC support group. If you think you can back it up here's a list of the questions/requests that remain unansered:

-Show me an example of how infinately expandable the IPAQ is beyond memory and modems.

-Show me where you read that the new PocketPC is going to support bluetooth.

-How much will this new IPAQ that supports Bluetooth cost?

-Will you have to buy a new one or will your old one truley expand?

If you post again with more feeble pokes at HS, and not backing up what you've said previously, the debate is over. Those reading this thread can come to their own conclusions about what the terms "infinatley expandable" and "industry standard" mean to them.

>Besides, do you know how much CF ethernet/modem cost? >$40. Any more questions?

was false. There's no CF ethernet/modem PCMCIA expansion that costs $40. There's a modem with a Compact Flash slot (no card included) that is $40 after rebates. No ethernet expasion is $40.

>If HS went out of business tomorrow, or a more likely >scenario, quit Palm PDA market, all HS expansion >modules would disappear or there would be no more NEW >HS modules.

Fortunately, I think Microsoft is in greater danger of being broke up than Handspring is of going out of business. Keep in mind though, that Handspring doesn't make all of the springboards. They probably make less than 10% of them.

Your comparison of Handspring to Micorsoft is also really a comparison of apples to oranges. The real comparison should have been to Compaq which by the way is in the middle of a merger with HP. I guess your SOL if they drop the IPAQ and just continue the Jornada. Or at least out of $600 when you buy your next money pit. You'll have to because who's going to keep writing PCMCIA drivers for the IPAQ?

The second link you privided was even less useful. No mention of bluetooth being included in the IPAQ could be found. I did however find the price $600 and up.

Sadly, I think we are comparing product lines that are headed in different directions. Compaq's prices continue to go up while Hansprings prices are more and more affordable for us middle class folks. The already large Compaq can be expanded with sleeves that make it even thicker and bulky. Handsprings on the other had can be expanded with springboards that fit flush in the springboard slot not affecting size at all. A few exceptions are the phone and GPS modules.

It almost appears that the IPAQ really isn't intended to replace Palm devices. It's really intended to replace Laptops... sort of... The price would surly indicate that.

>An extreme of this "infinte expandibiliy" is how you >can use almosst every SCSI-devices with your Ipaq.

I saw no SCSI connector on the IPAQ. Is this yet another sleeve you're referring to? Boy I bet that's big. PDA users aren't even interested in connecting it to a harddrive (try fitting that one in your pocket!)

I guess the points I've been trying to make so far are:

-The reason Hansprings (and all PalmOS devices for that matter) don't require as much memory as PocketPCs is because they use an OS that runs much smaller, more efficient programs. There's no arguing this.

-PocketPC's cost more Handsprings cost less

-PocketPC's are much larger than any PalmOS device especially when "expanded"

-Upon further review, expandability in the IPAQ is comparable to Handspring if you don't mind bulk (after all it's really just a mini laptop)

The reason I use Palm (and will continue to) is the stability and simplicity of the operating system for the average user.

Read this review of Pocket PC 2002:
http://techupdate.zdnet.com/techupdate/stories/main/0,14179,2811278,00.html

(I don't know how to fit it on one line.)

George

This also proves the argument simple Palm users don't need expensive or cheap software HS modules.

This further proves the argument simple Palm PDA should never cost $150, new or used.

So does HS have a shot in the low-end PDA market? I don't think so.

>HS is not cheap, $200 to $300 should buy a good machine. Color ipaq, 3650, $290. B/W ipaq: $99

Again you're comparing apples to oranges... These are the MSRPs of brand new products compared to your "back market" prices on older products. You're not going to get your Bluetooth enabled IPAQ that's supposedly comming out (per your own post only) for less than $600. Unless, of course, you're an employee of MicroSoft, which would explain why your so adimate about their crap.

>They're not black market price. They are advertised on the internet from legitimate stores.

>I won't tell you where to get it.

Why did you even post it then? Is this message board a game to you? Postings should be informative not "I can get if for this price and you can't"

> No, I'm not an employee of MS. I don't even like Window 98. But I don't want to tell you too much because you need get out there do some research before you get so stuck in your HS modules.

>HS is not small. Read what others have mentioned in this forum.

They were comparing it to other Palm devices, you're comparing it to an IPAQ. Here's the real dimensions:

Neo and Pro: 4.8" x 3.0" x 0.7"
Ipaq H3600 series: 5.11" x 3.28" x 0.62"

The Ipaq looks bigger to me. I can barely fit my Platinum (same as Neo) in my pocket. The IPAQ is a quarter inch wider and taller. Not a chance that's fitting into my pocket. Especially not with a sleeve on there. I can put any number of springboards into my Platinum and it still fits in my pocket. Yes sir, the Handspring is smaller.

>I didn't compare HS to Ipaq. I just said HS is not small. Its form factor is in the middle of nowhere. Besides, PocketPC is getting smaller and smaller. Toshiba geni at the Handera size is perfect. I personally don't want to get anything smaller than that.

>However, the size itself doesn't affect the quality.

It does affect the quantity though. This is why you have chosen to drop more money into CF.

>Drop more money in CF? I don't know what you're talking about here. Storing 128MB of MP3 would cost you $188 on SD. On HS memory module, not even possible. Storing 256MB of MP3 on CF cost about $100.

I don't know if you have problem understanding the issue here or not. The real data files (word files, excel sheets, ebook, jpeg images, movie clips, etc have similar files size regardless the OS. So whoever makes device that uses cheapest, most widely-used memory option has better PDA in terms of storage option.

>I already mention its the memory space of hardware to hold real DATA space that really matters.

You got one of them USB hard drives in your backpack for your "real DATA"?

>No, just a small 256MB of CF for about $100.

Again, the only difference between that and a laptop is about $100-$200.

>Yes, Ipaq is a good alternative to laptop. Except a decent laptop costs at least $1000. And you can't never carry a laptop with you everywhere you go (including reading ebook in the restroom;-)

By the way, since you're so hard-core HS users, tell us what you've been able to do HS that makes you so proud.

And I'm done, too.

Anyways, $300 for 16 megs? it's a rip off for a visor.
They had the PRo and NEO stacked on top of each other. and it's in a white box.
(nxt)

This shows that plam sales are 85% b&w, 15% color.
http://www.palminfocenter.com/view_Story.asp?ID=2296

"I'm the kind of guy who laughs at a funeral,
can't understand it, and I don't think I soon will"

When Handspring goes out of business (if it continues to produce monochrome look-alikes), this is the song I'll listen to, not understanding their business plans.

Thats right but what people want more is a PDA thats less than $200. If its color, fine. If not, they aren't going to pay $200 more to get it. Color is the future but not until it gets cheap.

Its like flat panel monitors. Most people would like one but they still buy a CRT because it costs half as much.

High colour? Nope.
Better MemStick stick? HS doesn't need it.
Better apps? Nope.
Better jog wheel support? Nope.
WCA 2.0 Support? Nope - HS has Blazer instead.

Does the S320 do MP3? Nope.
Is there an addon module that does MP3 for the S320. Nope.
Do I really want to play MP3s on my HS? Nope (YVMV).
Can I get a CPDP modem for the S320? Nope.
Does my current investment in Springboard modules, EB case and PPK work with the new HS models - thank God yes ... finally someone that has backward compatability.

Will I buy the new HS? Nope - but I would recommend it over the Sony. Personally I am waiting for the Treo range to hit the shelves (October?).

Token.

"Does the S320 do MP3? Nope.
Is there an addon module that does MP3 for the S320. Nope."
WRONG--did you read Ed's post on the front page?

"Do I really want to play MP3s on my HS? Nope (YVMV)."
Why bother pointing out a feature that you wouldn't use anyway?

"Can I get a CPDP modem for the S320? Nope."
First of all, it's CDPD (cellular digital packet data), and yes the S320 has one. AGain, I point to Ed's earlier post. Click on News Archives and you'll see a story on MYLO wireless service.

"Will I buy the new HS? Nope - but I would recommend it over the Sony. Personally I am waiting for the Treo range to hit the shelves (October?)."

You obviously have a personal investment in your HS, and that's fine, but don't pretend you've done the homework when you clearly have not!

Token.

http://www.palminfocenter.com/view_Story.asp?ID=2340&MODE=FLAT

thx,
fuzz

I purchased the Edge when it was $399, before the price drop. I wasn't too thrilled to find the PDA I had just bought (about 45 days earlier) was now available for $100 less.

But I also just kind of decided, if I was going to live with my purchase for a couple of years, at least, I really wanted color. And the 610, for the exact same money as what I paid for the Edge, gave me not only a beautiful color screen (it really blows me away) but OS 4.0 and expandable memory, up to 128 megs.

It IS slightly larger then the Edge. I LOVED the Edge's form factor. But comparing one to the other, I believe most people, myself included, would give a strong advantage to the Sony Clie.

I'm sorry, ahecht, but that's incorrect. The Sony Audio Adapter does work with the S series.

---
News Editor

The result, PocketPC 2002 will rule.

It's almost amazing if one tries to compare PocketPC innovation to that of Palm.

Good luck, Handspring!

Is that not Grafitti?!

Newton 130/Palm VxLE/Palm m505 owner

I'm in the Netherlands and over here you can't get the new Sony machines. No HandEra either. I've never seen a Visor in a shop but you can get them mail order.

In a shop your typical choice would be a Palm or a ppc.
With the m505 and the iPaq costing about the same, the ppc's are becoming very popular very quickly.

I am thinking of buying an iPaq myself

-it's fun watching Palm user trying to find file on flat tree directory structure can calling it easy. (scrolling up and down like crazy, cause it has obscure name in the middle of 70 similarly named file)

-it's fun watching spreadsheet on crude 160-160 ugly screen. (all in the name of simplicity)

-it's fun watching Palm user yapping about how cool the future 5.0 with bluetooth will be, while doing wireless data streaming with Wi-Fi. (maybe even record the yapp and broadcast it over the company's LAN.

-it's fun knowing somebody paying $450 for PIM gadget and pretending it is the best buy in the world.

To be honestly, these 2 HS are still lack of "Wow" factor. The same old casting, which was not so appealling even months ago. So-so improvement make them hardly qualified as "new" products. Mono screen, well.....

..enough said, those who want them will buy them, and those who don't wlll find millions of reasons to trash them. Good luck HS on next product!

Good point about the pad :)

I'm a perfect example of this. I knew very little about PDAs when I bought my first one. I was trying to decide first of all between a WindowsCE and a PalmOS machine. That was pretty easy since I try to support Microsoft as little as possible. Then I had to pick a brand. I decided to pay an extra few bucks to get the expandability of the springboard slot. Until just recently, I've never used the springboard slot. I sure am glad that I can now though.

they also seems oblivious about progressing technology. (battery sure becomes better and better and the rest of components also require less power)

they also have the gall asking "do people need" these bundled apps. (who care, it's free and that's a feature enough)

they poke fun of Compact Flash slot? (now that's a BIG mistake)

anybody notice they couldn't even lie with straight face even back than (see "ebook" section on the table)

.....this document is a museum piece, complete with Palm reasoning why color doesn't cut it.