Comments on: Palm OS 5 to be 32-bit, Run on ARM 7 Chips

Do you really think it's going to be as small as current Palms?

Maybe.. There are some PPCs that are released in Japan by other manufactures that are pretty slim, and with Sony on board that my be more of a possibility...but look at the PPCs now. 3rd generations and they do pretty much what Palms is aiming to do. With the ARM processor needing a hefty battery I'd say Palms may look more like PPCs in size and battery life now than they will look like Palms do now.

The biggest problem I see is not that it's ARM, it's that they're running it at 200+MHZ.

I mean, the Game Boy Advance runs on an ARM processor, and it gets LOTS better battery life than a IPaqItIn. It only runs at 16Mhz, not 200, though. Speed=Heat=Lost power.

As far as PalmOS emulation - The GBA manages to emulate the processor of the previous gameboy without too much problem - It's a similar scale of problem (Yes, the GB processor is simpler than the DragonBall, but since it's a gaming platform, they have to emulate it a LOT more accurately. Palm will have a little more slop as far as what makes an acceptable emulation.)

What I'm afraid of is that Palm will stick their foot in it, and decide they have to get into a hardware/advertising war with Microsoft - Which they'll lose, unfortunately. Microsoft will always have the Bigger/Faster hardware, because they don't have to MAKE it, and they're not accountable to the people who DO. They can write the nastiest, sloppiest, slowest code possible, throw it at Compaq, and say 'Make it work.' - And the only thing Compaq can do is make a faster/larger machine, and watch their profit margins vanish under equipment costs. When Compaq bleeds white enough on the iPaq, and gets out of the PPC business (like so many before them), Microsoft will just find another sucker.

ARM processors are well known for having one of the highest MIPS-per-Watt ratios around. That coupled with the fact that Palm OS is extraordinarily efficient when it comes to CPU utilization (literally shutting down the CPU every chance it can) should lead to excellent power-consumption.

It is unfair to assume that because other handhelds based on ARM processors have less-than-ideal battery life, that devices based on Palm OS 5 will suffer the same fate. This isn't like the Dragonball, where you can only get the chips from Motorola -- ARM processors come in many shapes, sizes, and flavors. I'm confident that Palm will do a good job with it. The billion dollar question is: will it come out in time to make a difference?

I dont think that the processors in OS 5 will run 200+ MHZ. Even though OS5 will have more capabilities than OS 4, the code will still be much smaller than PPC. It wont need as much juice, thus saving battery life.

I think Palm can pull this off and finally kill PPC.

Yep.

Off topic, hows the whole nintendo thing going ardi?

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When you have a Clie shoved up your mouth, you can only talk in vowels.

Huh? I work for Metrowerks, which is owned by Motorola. The only ARM-based chip announced right now is the Dragonball MX1. It is based on the ARM920T core, not the ARM7, and should scale from very low speeds to a high around 200MHz. You will be able to run the chip very slow to reduce power consumption, and the chip will directly support MMC/SD cards, Memory Stick, Bluetooth, or USB (with appropriate hardware attached).

BTW, pricing in the Motorola press release was $19/chip for the MX1 in 10,000 unit quantities. All you really need to add to get a full featured PDA is memory, interface hardware, a screen, a digitizer, and the OS. For this device, using an ARM chip is only about $5 more expensive than a Dragonball 68K CPU, so I'd expect ARM-based devices even in the low-end.

what does it mean to be 32bit... i don't understand...how many bits is the Palm OS 4 or how many bits is ppc running at...what is the comparison?....is it like Sega Genesis running at 16 bit while n64 runs at 64 bits.... but still, what does that mean?

32-bits refers to the use of Thumb instructions (16-bit instructions) versus regular ARM instructions (32-bits). Mainly it's a trade off of more instructions for double the space. BTW, ARM is a nice processor since it has a barrel-shifter (multiple shifts in one clock, very powerful instruction that 68K lacks). Plus it has conditional execution of most instructions, which helps out a lot for the code cache. MHZ-to-MHZ ARM is about 6-10 times faster than a 68K. So if the ARM is as power efficient as a 68K, we'll be getting almost 10 times the processing power for the same battery (I hope).

All of them. I probably should have made this more clear in the article but I did provide a link to a relevent article at the end. Last summer, Palm announced the Palm OS Ready Program. Intel will provide StrongARM and XScale Palm OS Ready solutions while Motorola will provide DragonBall MX1 Palm OS Ready solutions. The "Palm OS Ready" in their names means all of these microprocessors, no matter who makes them, will be able to run the next generation of the Palm OS.

Here are a couple of articles you should read with more info:
www.palminfocenter.com/view_Story.asp?ID=2167
www.palminfocenter.com/view_Story.asp?ID=2151

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News Editor

1) Bloated: Yes it's Bloated, BeOS Engineers has a pretty good reputation of not making Bloated OS, so probably that'll help.

2) Poor UI: I have to disagree with you on this, PPC 2002 has totally redone the UI, and I am impressed, but I still prefer EPOC or Newton.

3) Hulking Hardware: Actually Toshiba engineers already put their hands on PPC, and already made one that's half the size of iPAQ, which looks pretty cool, if that thing runs Newtonm EPOC or Palm OS 5 I'll certainly buy one.

<"Actually Toshiba engineers already put their hands on PPC, and already made one that's half the size of iPAQ">

Please. The new Toshiba is SLIGHTLY smaller than the iPaq - don't let the overreported specs that highlight FRACTIONS OF AN INCH fool you. In real terms, it's essentially the same size as an iPaq, which means it's basically the same size as a Palm III. Heck, side-by-side with a Visor Prism, the Genio/Maestro looks essentially the same size.

The Toshi PPC (which I lust after; I'm an S320 owner) is just slightly thinner and slightly taller than a Palm III. It is currently the smallest PPC and is quite a feat of engineering, with its two slots (CF, SD). (And, yes, I'm well aware of the HandEra -- that's quite a feat too! One *Palm* should've pulled off years ago!) Battery life, however, remains to be seen. It will not match my S320, that's for sure.

I hope Palm will manage to keep their very good battery life. PPCs -- except possibly for a Jornada (which is larger than Palms) -- cannot match Palm's battery life.

You mean DOS and Windows 95 Co-exist !?

I'll throw my vote in for this as well. Having two paths that Palm can follow would seem the best of both worlds.

First you have the low end market. That is what is available now. Hardware stays roughly at the same level and Palm creates slight improvments and tweaks to the OS but it stays alive. Though profit margins are slimmer in this arena currently, but they will widen slightly as price to create said units drop.

Second you create a highlevel path with more advanced features or Enterprise level arcitecture. Larger processesors, a more robust OS to handle more intensive tasks.

And now for my own kicker of a thought... I hunt the Exective that passes it off as their own...

A third level. This is a more business orientated/ structure enviroment where Palm procedes into wireless but with a twist. They create a free flowing mainframe of sorts. You have a Palm Server that is more like a standard server, and a Palm client like a modded wireless device that acts like a dumb terminal. You have central processing at the server and the clients are meer gateways connected by wireless. So the powerhorse is sitting in an office. It runs spreadsheets database crunches etc and transmits only the display information (low bandwith) Palm Business on the go.

Anyone want to give me a comfy job?

Yeah, Ed is right. This is the most logical way to push OS5 from a business point of view.

e.g.
Pentium 3 co-exist Celeron
Athlon co-exist Duron

New technology will cost more and will be on hight-end martket untill newer technology comes out. And then, this not so new technology will drop in price and move to the middle or lower-end of the market and push the even older ones out of the line up.

Thank you, you guys get my idea.

Futhermore, I think the OS4 should serves as PDAs with normal applications and the ability to transfer/store/sync data with a server.

For a real-life example. A bunch of warehouse or on-field workers input data they record and hotsync them via a wireless handheld like VII. On the other hand, the Hotsnyc server will run a real-time program to analyze or compile the existing data these workers just input. Then the hotsync server can compilte sales report, inventory reports or etc. so that these on-field workers can download via their wireless handheld. The compilation of the data (or any process that requires heavy CPU's usage) will be done on the Hotsync server real time. The OS4 handhelds will serve as transfer/store/sync data and do not need powerful CPUs and thus save cost, size and battery life. B/W or color does not matter, really.

Of course, some corporations will still buy these new OS5 handhelds, but not being the majority of Palm's handheld sales. And the key to success is backward compatible. A program that can run on OS4 can be run on OS5 or even OS6. That make sure enterprise will not need to worry on the future upgrade/purchase of handhelds whether they have it right now or not. That's what is lacking for PPC. When they have something like PPC 2004, the PPC 2002 programs can not run on these new PPC 2004 handhelds; this will leave the existing enterprise in deep water because either they have to buy all new PPCs or do not upgrade.

Palm, are you listening to your customers? I am one of those.

(continued) so... the end story would be because everything is on a server, no matter where you go or where you access it from, it is with you.

on the support side all apps are in one area, easy upgrade, low cost over multitudes of desk enviroments, easy administration trough a central hub. Disiminating work load off handhelds and terminals so you have lower turn over as tasks demands increase (upgrade server) extend life lower costs, central but not isolated.

Uh... there is more and more all floating around in the gray matter. Just from my desk as a graphic artist, it gets pretty lonely up there. (I don't have a company to make it happen. Drats)

My concluded point is that let the Hotsync server(s) do the CPU-intensive applications, data analysis and etc. The OS4 handhelds serve for basic applications (which are offered right now,), data input, reports download, information access device. It may not be a Ferrari with 500 horsepower, but it is certainly a Civic that saves you gas mileage and is easy on you wallet, which will also get your job done - travel from point A to B (and of course a little bit extra fun is welcome, and that's why we have games on our handhelds).

Peter so you are basically saying it would be a dumb terminal that isn't entirely dumb. Great idea. Once again, why would one have to be in the office? With future cell technology, speeds will be close to dsl/cable/isdn speeds. Why not have a constant connection to the server. Think citrix. You connect to the server, you see what you would see as if the program was right there, but all you are seeing is constant screenshots, key mapping and mouse mapping. webpad manufs. have been trying to get this into the enterprise market for a long time but haven't been able to because of the price. Maybe palm could help them with that problem.

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When you have a Clie shoved up your mouth, you can only talk in vowels.

Yeah, I know. I read that too, just the thread was gone from the page so I didn't comment. The way I see this, its not exactly set in stone. Example, my sprintpcs phone has the ability receive aol instant messanger messages as they come to my phone, no need to check for new ones. Also, with web messages, people can email you. Why can't someone get all of this to work together? Then you have the $65 or so price tag, blackberrry service isnt' exactly cheap right now, but there are many in the field. If you combine cell+blackberry type service, corporations will pay. Remember, this is going enterprise/vertical markets first, then consumer. If its going to actually accomplish something, it will be used by the big boys. As for myself, I have no problem adding $5 to my cell bill. Techincally, it can be done right now, not very fluidly, and not made for enterprise, but it can be done. Example: Someone sends email to my work address, if I'm logged in, it goes to my desktop, if I'm not, it is fowarded to my sprintpcs shortmail or directly to my phone through a web message. Europe pretty much demanded rim to add voice to the blackberry before they introduced it. Voicestream will be featuring blackberrys with voice and getting rid of those 2 way pagers. So the market is really there for consumers aswell. Who knows, time will tell.

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When you have a Clie shoved up your mouth, you can only talk in vowels.

Palm OS Claassic and Palm OS ARM7 is more than likely to coexist for quite sometime down the road.

Consider the direction Handsping is taking. I can see Palm OS Classic can continue its life as a smartphone OS for next next 3-5 yrs. ARM is too power-hungry for such applications right now. Palm OS Classic code is probably more compact also and more suitable for remote installations via wireless.

Palm OS Classic may also be the only options for slim-sized Palms for the next 2-3 yrs. The Palm V-series form-factor is possible thanks to the DragonBall's integrated I/O controllers. ARM 7 do not currently provide such tight integration. A slim ARM7-powered Palm will be possible only when a highly-integrated, low-power consumption ARM7 CPU is made avaialble.

ARM7 will probably be aimed at the mid-range Palms, the segment currently served by the Sony Clie N760C and the mainstream Visors.

And that's not a bad idea: a low-cost Dragonball-based Palm OS Classic for the low-end and the slim-sized models and a ARM7-based Palm OS 5.0 for the high-end models. There'll be a clear visible differences between the 2 markets and prevents the them from overlapping.

having to support 2 binaries can be inconvinient, but it should be a limiting factor. PocketPC / Windows CE supports serveral CPU architetures and have no problem with multiple biniary support.

My questions are:

1. Why Palm chose ARM7 over DragonBall MX1? The Dragonball MX1, even though it doesn't utilize the ARM7 core, is more electrically similar to the 68k Dragonballs, more integrated, and consume much less power. It'd allow Palm a shorter time-to-market.

2. What's gonna happen to the Springboard? Since the Springboard is a direct connection to the Dragonball CPU, it'd be likely to be electrically incompatible with the ARM CPUs. Will Handspring introduce a new ARM-based Springboard and retain backward compatibility?

>>You mean DOS and Windows 95 Co-exist !?<<

Yes, they do more than co-exist. Windows 95, no matter how hard they try to hide it, is actually a DOS program, and so is 98. The only windows operating systems which don't run on DOS are the NT based ones (NT, 2000, and XP).

I don't think producing a old os device is a viable idea. having to support new old devices is a nightmare. Software desingers will have to make new software for both the OS4 and OS5 as well as support different hardware for the devices... I figure that palm will create new low end devices for the OS5. Devices that don't have Bluetooth, don't have color displays, don't have external speakers or even sound for that matter. There are a number of different ways to do it. Also people are vain for the most part. We need the latest greatest. There are people buying High end PC's that have never owned a PC just because they might want the power one day. Look at the issue over the 4.5 os release with us Clie owners. I returned my n700 for a n760 just to get higher color that you can't hardly tell is there.

Billy

They have been predicting a Microsoft takeover since CE, 2-3 years ago. It hasn't happened, folks.

I would just like to point out that in my mind the term that was censored means to walk carefully like a cat! Of course in hindsight (and this may be a UK English / US English thing) I can see that it could be understood in a very different light! That was certainly my intention and a apologise for any offence I may have caused!

In reply to the last poster I get the feeling that low end long battery life ARM Palms may run at about 66-100Mhz. That should be good enough for emulation, and assuming the new OS has the same low overheads as the present OS new apps should still be pretty nippy.

I suppose that Palm has spent the last year trying to make OS5 work - flawlessly. What would you prefer: an OS which is released a few months late but which does the job; or something released with much fanfare but with glaring problems (a la Win95). Palm has a well earned reputation for cutting code which works, as advertised. Let them get on with it. Something tells me that it will be worth the wait.

if you haven't realized by now, most stats are manipulated. that is the whole purpose of its use. stats which after manipulation are not acceptable are just not released. when somebody says their hand is 7 inches long, you can guarantee it's less than that.

Totally not a suprise. I wonder though, what does this mean for the licenses. Since arm chips are available from different vendors, this could really make a big difference for some licenses. Sony for example could use an arm optimized for ms. I'm curious what vendor palm itself will use. Got a feeling it will be intel.

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When you have a Clie shoved up your mouth, you can only talk in vowels.

Second half of 2002 means December 31, 2002. Marketing always looks at the last day in a date range and us enthusiast always think it means the first day.

Hopefully Palm OS 5 will also support ARM 926ejs.

NITF

Hmm, let's start from the beginning.

> no wonder why ppc is gaining market.

It isn't. The most recent retail figures show Palm has well over 80% of the market. Studies show Palm dominates corporate sales, too. You've been fed a lie by Microsoft's PR people. Don't try to pass it on to us. We know better.

> the Ipaq is thinner than the Clie!

The very latest iPaq is .62 inches. The latest Clie is .39 inches.

> Full networking capabilties

You have to buy an expensive and large expansion pack to get that functionn.

> for the SAME price as a Clie (Ipaq 3765)

I went to PriceGrabber.com and found that this is wrong, too.

The recent why you saw an I-paq is at $349 because bestbuy is running a promotion acroos all PPCs. $100 off. On the other hand, the $50 discount is a rebate from Compaq itself.

So with just the launch within two months for the ALL new PPC 2002s, they have to run HEFTY promotion, 70% of original price. Why? It is not because they are good. It is because these PPCs are stacked up in their warehouse and no more can be put it. That's why they have to consume some of them.

Isn't it pathetic for some PPC zealots here? Some of you just bought your DREAM handheld and you thought it is worth more than $499. But just weeks later, your dream tells you it is only $349 and may be even lower.

Conclusion is that PPCs are running hefty promotions anywhere because their sales flop. Do you see the 4 of the 6 models on Amazond.de are sold out? They will not be avaiable for another week or so. Dream on, zealots!

I heard Pocket PC is doing so bad Microsoft is going to drop it if it doesn't start making some money in the next 6 months. Maybe you can pick up a cheap iPaq in the close out sale.

Yeah sure. Palm and Sony are too dropping prices. But you Palm zealots can dream forever. I just want to see your faces next year with machines which are more or less the same as PocketPC now.

Palm dropped its prices months later (almost half a year or so.)

But PPC 2002s are running full-steam price reduction happened only weeks later after the launch of the HIGHLY-ANTICIPATED PPC 2002s.

At least it is true.

No two ways about it, that's a lie. If the only support you have for your opinions is lies, then you have lost the arguement. Goodbye.

"I just want to see your faces next year with machines which are more or less the same as PocketPC now."

I think there's a difference of an opinion here between PocketPC and Palm users. PocketPC users such as yourself think that the reason Palm users are not buying PocketPCs is because "they don't need multimedia capabilities" (what you call "machines which are more or less the same as PocketPC"). Now, if Palm users wouldn't need multimedia capabilities (and certainly a good number of them really, really don't need them - imagine that), then why would the Clié devices be so popular? They have high-resolution color screens, and are able to play video and audio. So why are people buyng them, if they don't need multimedia? Remember, Cliés are PALM OS devices aswell.

The BIGGEST reason Palm device users (that includes Palm, Sony, etc) aren't buying PocketPCs is the bloated operating system and software. And with "users" I'm referring to those people who buy their PDAs to fill a real need, NOT those who just want to own the flashiest Palm in the block and have very little if any REAL use for their device.

Every Palm user, regardless of their device, enjoys a SNAPPY, INTUITIVE PDA experience, something few if any PocketPCs can claim right now. As many have said before (not necessarely in this thread), PocketPC tries to be a "small computer", not a PDA. As such, it'll always be more bloated than current Palm devices. THIS is (AFAICT) the main reason why current users of Palm aren't buying PocketPCs.

Therefore, even if the devices us Palm users will be carrying next year will resemble PocketPCs on the exterior, I'm personally hoping the similarity stops there. Yes, I bought my m505 because you can slip it in your pocket and forget it's there untill you need it, but I wouldn't feel so bad about losing the size benefit as long as the device I was buying was as snappy and straight-forward as my m505 is. The PocketPCs I've tried thus far have not been that.

Neither PPC or PalmOS. If Palm doesn't screw up, both will continue to co-exist.

As for me, if Palm comes out with an ARM-based device, that's one more device I can install Linux on. I don't particularly care for either PPC or PalmOS, you see...

Question about the new processors, will the code be different? I know OS5 can run OS4 proggies but can OS4 run OS5 ones? Will developers have to decide to make their new apps OS4-compliant or OS5-compliant? I went through Apple's switch to Power Macs and I want to know if it will be the same.

High res didn't come out like it was a premade capabiliity. Handera/Sony each did it their way, ways that can't be shared with palm and the other licenses. Which imho is total bs because thats the whole damn point of the licensed os. Anyway. Palm isn't stupid, they aren't going to include a 160x160 res on an arm based system. I'm sure all those goodies are in the future. Personally I just want a damn jog dial. Let everyone else get their 1024x768 res handhelds with a bagillion megs of ram. I want a damn jog dial on every handheld NOW!

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When you have a Clie shoved up your mouth, you can only talk in vowels.

Jog Dials are worthless for many people like me. They are completly right-hand biased. Not one company (PalmOS or PPC licencee) has even bothered to release a model with the jog dial on the right side of the unit (for left handed users) so until that day comes, to hell with the jog dial.

As a previous Newton 2100 owner with a massive 320x480 (if my memory serves me correctly) screen, my jump to the Palm IIIxe was cramping, but more tolerable than expected. Enter Handera 330 which I have been using for 4 months now....Half the Newton screen in the size of a Palm III. It is only the Handera's screen which kept me from switching to PPC. 320x320 is nice, but no extra useable space keeps me from getting too excited about it. You've never seen what a Palm can do until you've seen iSilo running full screen QVGA in landscape mode. Spreadsheets look beautiful. Wordsmith fantastic with the extra space. I know some can't handle greyscale, but give me maximum screen area in a minimum package and that's my idea of a great and useful PDA.

If a full size/soft grafitti screen's not in OS5 and some genius company like Handera's not in the game to make up for the deficit, there will be a PPC in my pocket. Maybe Sony will come through and I'll get my 320x480 back! I agree with the others that OS5 is make it or break it. It is for me.

> Actually, that's not true. Sony's license for Palm OS
> allows any innovations by Sony to flow back to Palm;

Which, in the case of the screen, dosen't do them a lot of good. Sony's screen improvements are hardware based - The only way to build new palms with Sony's improvements would be to source the screens from the same place Sony does... You guessed it - Sony!

Palm would be smarter to just pony up the cash, and pay Handera for the adjustable resolution code. Or even BUY Handera, and just fire/shoot half the people in their hardware department.

But they can't do that, can they? Handera's a closed company (No public stock, IIRC), so a leveraged buy-out is not an option. Likewise, most of the corporate take-over tactics don't work if there's no public stock out.

> Handspring evidently has a similar license. HandEra,
> OTOH, has a license agreement which keeps their
> innovations proprietary; if Palm wants to
> incorporate HandEra technology into the base OS,
> Palm would have to pay HandEra for the rights.

Pity that Palm's spent all this money on the Kadak core, and won't spend a few dollars more on decent, well tested drivers to allow them to use bigger, more popular, already-in-production screens.

It's an electronic agenda, pal, not a shrunk personal computer.

32bit is True color (24bit) plus 8bit for alpha transparency.

^light bulb glows above head^

Hey! How about a game boy advance slot standard too? C'mon HandEra, I bet you could do it.

"32bit is True color (24bit) plus 8bit for alpha transparency"

{Correct me if I'm wrong}

Now I don't think tha applys to what I was talking about. In a 3D game, there are only 24bits as the other 8bit of the 32bit is used for transparency - this I agree with you.

BUT

I 2D workspace/UI. 32bits (heck, scanners are coming off with 48bit and more) actually means more color as well as color precision - tho we may not see the difference between 32bit and 24bit due to the small screen - which is why i was hoping they'd add 24bit screen color (32bit would be nice but not need for now) support

Interesting, very interesting. Could this be another reason software palm and hardware palm are no longer shaking hands like they used to?

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When you have a Clie shoved up your mouth, you can only talk in vowels.

I seem to remember Motorola saying that the MX1 would be suitable to run a number of OS's including WinCE, PalmOS5

Who says its in the can? BeOS is well known for its rich stable multimedia. Have a feeling a lot of Be will be in seen os5

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When you have a Clie shoved up your mouth, you can only talk in vowels.

Your "real innovators" wouldn't know customer or developer support if it bit them on the @$$.

i agree, money was a factor and also trust of the brand. Palm had more market share therefore, people trusted palm would have been more of a standard to the technology at that point. Then ppc, and linux striked back.
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In fact the last quarter I the Nokia Communicator outsold Palm and PPC Europe wide ... so i read in PCW anyhow ... probably on value rather than volume.

Palm isn't going to make a webpad. Webpads have come and gone, and REALLY gone. No one has become successful selling them. Plus you got M$ with their "BRAND NEW NEVER SEEN BEFORE" tablet pc. No market at all for anyone.

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When you have a Clie shoved up your mouth, you can only talk in vowels.

I have to agree; so far there has been little demand for the tablet PC. While they do have a screen that's about four times as big as a handheld's, until some technological breakthrough happens they are also four times as big, weigh four times as much, and cost four times as much. This is just my opinion, but it seems to me that a tablet PC can only do about twice as much as a handheld.

I think laptops are hurting the tablet PC more than handhelds. A super-slip laptop isn't much bigger than a tablet PC, costs about the same, and comes with a keyboard. Convincing people to give up their keyboards without a very compelling reason is tough and so far I haven't heard any compelling reasons.

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News Editor

In saying this, I will stop talking like a two year old and being to river dance. Can you see it!?! Can you see it? Oh..wait.

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When you have a Clie shoved up your mouth, you can only talk in vowels.