Comments on: Jeff Hawkins Clarifies the Future of the Visor
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RE: Spin Control
He left himself a nice ''out''...
HANDSPRING = GM
VISOR = OLDSMOBILE
RE: He left himself a nice ''out''...
RE: He left himself a nice ''out''...
Elizabeth Taylor
No colour models == no future
So, they don't plan on making new colour models?
Sony is kicking Palms ass with new screens, I bought N770 purely because of great screen, having looked M505 in the same store I just had to have N770.
I must say I was about to get new IPAQ with nice screen, lots of memory AND CompactFlash cards which are WAY cheaper than Secure Digital crap that Palm is tryihg to shovel down our throats.
RE: No colour models == no future
RE: No colour models == no future
I didn't like memory stick, but its far better than secure digital. Memory sticks are here with up 128Mb in size, soon there will be 256/512, and it looks like Sony is getting more and more open with it -- Lexar and Sandisk were licensed to produce memory sticks WITHOUT royalties, which means prices will go down big time.
RE: No colour models == no future
Although Ed thinks that this means there will be no more color Visors, I think the oposite is true. I think they are planning on releasing one or two more Visors before completing the transition to comunicators. I still think the color version of the Edge is ahead of us. (Hopefully with a more elegant way of adding on springboards!)
Again, Ed is mixing his speculation in with the facts. It's important that we, as readers, recognize the difference no matter how he portrays it.
Dream on
RE: No colour models == no future
Found a 128MB Lexar Memory stick for 65 bucks. Find a 128SD solution for that price.
RE: No colour models == no future
RE: No colour models == no future
2. Even if they aren't coming out with a new color device, the original poster needs to get a clue. It just as much would not surprise me if they did not come out with a color Visor anytime soon. What the color-Clie-heads need to realize is that they are a tiny blip (but unfortunately an overly vocal one here) in overall sales. Color Palm device sales are a very tiny fraction of the market, and not a very profiable one for mass production. The fact that Sony is coming out with so many different color models leads to the implication that they aren't selling well and Sony is trying to figure out what will sell. The other Palm device makers have already figured out that they don't sell very well at these price points.
RE: No colour models == no future
Now finnally, the main point why I bought Clie is BEAUTIFUL COLOUR SCREEN! Check subject of my posts -- no colour models == no future, NOT: SD/MMC sucks, MemoryStick rules. I would not buy Palm M505 even if it had compact flash beacuse its screen SUCKS!
RE: No colour models == no future
RE: No colour models == no future
There is a big market for colour palm sized devices, ever heard of Game Boy Advanced? There is nothing preventing of having one palm device used both for serious tasks and games, analogue of a PC in your hands.
RE: No colour models == no future
> they sell better than mono-models
I wonder how much commission he got off of that sale. "Oh, nobody buys those $200 ones, they're junk. You can't do anything with them. You look like a fine fellow. What you need is one of these $450 beauties. Top of the line."
In any case, your sales idiot was very wrong.
RE: No colour models == no future
And who are you to say that he is more wrong than you?
RE: No colour models == no future
RE: No colour models == no future
BTW, HS has stopped their online store in Japan since 12/26/2001 and left a 2 staff in the Japan office to support their PDAs. The Edge dropped from 49,000 yen (same price as N750C - N760C in US) to 19,800 yen (abt $150) 2 months ago. Still they cannot sell because 160x160 display is not acceptable for Japanese Kanji when you have the Clie hires to compare. HS is moving out of Japan for sure as Treo has no place here because there is no GSM here and it is neither color nor hires. They did not release Neo and Pro as well.
RE: No colour models == no future
RE: No colour models == no future
RE: No colour models == no future
That's OK, Jeff...
I don't believe Jeff's statement helped any
The statements made are not excatly clear about the future doom of the Springboard, but all readings indicate that it will likely be dropped once the Visor's meet their fate. If this is the case, it is really going to make consumers doubt the future of the TREO line. It will be a shame that a PrismII will never be released, HS will no longer have a color organizer. This will be a severe Handicap for them. Not to mention the stockholders who already seem to be placing their votes as well.
Let me see if I undserstand this right, the initial TREO Wave will:
180g/k will be a B&W device.
The TREO's have no flashable OS (stuck with what you got, like the Visor's though a few patches exist).
Handspring rarely updates OS's (The VisorDeluxe never received a "patched" upgrade to OS 3.5.2) so the TREO with masked ROM will be Future OS challenged.
There is no on-board expandability of the TREO. So if you have to do a hard-reset on your TREO and you are away from your computer (Jeff, can't tell me this never happened to you) you are screwed with no way of reinstalling your phone numbers/contacts until you get back to the office. For those using the TREO "World Phone" capbilities in another continent, this could really hose up a perfectly nice trip to Europe when you lose all your phone numbers. At least with my VisorPhone and MemPlug CF I can restore from my last backup and be good to go quickly without having to lug my Desktop/Laptop with me.
Handspring will someday realize that a PDA without expandability is not going to fly in today's Palm/PDA economy (Communicator or not). Therefore, the initial TREO's sold will likely be obsoleted in about 6months (or less) with a follow-up version that learned from the mistakes being made today. Handspring will eventually add expandability or ... I'd rather not say.
Just my .02 worth...
RE: I don't believe Jeff's statement helped any
> computer (Jeff, can't tell me this never happened to you) you are screwed
> with no way of reinstalling your phone numbers/contacts until
> you get back to the office.
Just do a wireless Network HotSync. I used to call in from home and HotSync with my work PC all the time with my old 14.4 PalmModem.
RE: I don't believe Jeff's statement helped any
Also, you would hope that you remember the the IP/Hostname of the remote machine you are connecting too and that your local ISP isn't having problems back at the office.
The other challenge is that not everyone has a dedicated phone line for Remote HotSync'ing nor a dedicated internet connection (CABLE/DSL).
Face it, expandability on a PDA,
**communicator or not**
is not a luxury but a necessity.
RE: I don't believe Jeff's statement helped any
Some bright individual out there should make a little dongle-like device that hooks into the serial port to receive a full memory data dump ... the TREO will still have a serial port, so that's probably the only way to get all 16mb of data out of the unit in a reasonable timeframe. The user would trigger the "backup" application from the memory, and then they'd have a full backup.
Now ... let's say that the unit hard crashes while on the road. The backup data is stored in the "dongle", but there is no on-board application to read everything back in. Well, maybe the dongle can have a little IR transmitter that could "beam" the restore app into the unit. You know, just like the Springboard modules have their applications stored in the module itself? This thing could have its application available in memory and ready for beaming.
Aww hell, why not just make the whole thing one little memory box with an IR transmitter? Yeah, that's probably a better way to do it -- one size fits all (Clie, Palm, HandSpring, HandEra, Samsung, Kyocera, etc). It might be slow, but you back the whole PDA up to the memory box via IR. Then, if your PDA crashes, the IR memory box can beam the "backup/restore" app first, which you then launch and pull in the rest of the data.
That *COULD* work. And you would finally have an accessory that you wouldn't need to toss out the next time you change PDAs.
RE: I don't believe Jeff's statement helped any
RE: I don't believe Jeff's statement helped any
RE: I don't believe Jeff's statement helped any
It's true you can get back the 50 stored on the SIM Card after a hard reset, but if you have 600 names/addresses (like I do) 50 is typically immdiately family/friends. The business associate you're likely to meet at the Airport may very well not be in your SIM Card and was instead in your Palm Addressbook, which was wipped out.
Just something to consider.
RE: I don't believe Jeff's statement helped any
> little dongle-like device that hooks into the serial
> port to receive a full memory data dump ... the TREO
> will still have a serial port, so that's probably
> the only way to get all 16mb of data out of the unit
> in a reasonable timeframe.
I'm using such a 'dongle' since summer 2000 for my Palm devices. Have a look at www.flashplug.de who invented this type of modules.
RE: I don't believe Jeff's statement helped any
> telephone numbers are stored in the GSM card.
> So if you have to do a hard reset you don't lose
> your contacts. This is obvious for non-american
> phone users...
Indeed. I have about 250 contacts stored in the flash memory of my Ericsson T39 mobile phone, along with
2 x POP3 email accounts (the T39 has a -very basic but working- email client built in as well as a WAP browser)
RE: I don't believe Jeff's statement helped any
You missed the part where I pointed out that I used to do this all the time on my 14.4 modem. it is slow but doable. I wasn't saying its the best solution, but the first guy made a blanket statement that you'd be screwed. I just pointed out that that wasn't necessarily true. But the FlashPlug is a much better solution. I see a Treo version of this within 6 months.
RE: I don't believe Jeff's statement helped any
I was actually the first guy :)
Anyways, you're right it's doable but dependent upon a few things as to wheter or not you are screwed. What if you bought a TREO without a backup plan of paying for a second phone line in your home that would allow you to remotely HotSync? What if you don't have Cable/DSL in your area? If either of those are not possible and you own a TREO, you are- for lack of a better word, screwed if you have to perform a Hard Reset during your trip.
I was looking at the cost of the alternative and the reality of how many people would have such a contingency in the event of disaster with their TREO as opposed to a MemPlug or some other backup solution.
You mentioned the FlashPlug as a potential solution. The problem with the FlashPlug (I owned one of these too with my Palm VIIx) is that you need to install the application to the PDA "FIRST" before you can move any data from the FlashPlug to the PDA. Therefore, it's essentially useless too while on the road and after a Hard Reset. It can't auto load the program that is needed to access the FlashPlug (or Memory Safe)...
You make some good points, but the fact that there is no solid backup solution for the TREO while travelling is a fatal flaw in the device.
My Experience: I used to have lots of problems with my VisorPrism/VisorPhone and had to perform Hard Resets when my Prism would jump into an infinite loop on the Startup screen. It would show the Palm Computing screen, flicker and reset itself infinitely. There was no way to recover aside from a Hard Reset(tried all the wonderful tricks of recover Pin with up arrow, down arrow, Power, etc.).
I would assume the TREO is going to be suceptible to the same condition. As it turned out, removing ICQ from the Prism resolved this problem for me(haven't seen it do that again in about 9 months. It took me forever to isolate the problem (ICQ may not have been the cause of the problem, but it did fix the problem after having removed it).
With the VisorPrism/VisorPhone and the MemPlug, you at least had a solid solution for recovery that didn't require
a) Dialing back to the office
b) Having a PC (or second PDA) handy
I hope Handspring put some kind of safeguard into the TREO to prevent the issue I had mention above. If not, I'm sure someone is bound to run into it. When they do, they'll miss not having a SpringBoard for recovery.
RE: I don't believe Jeff's statement helped any
Jon K. Urrutia
Spin Control
But you can't blame Jeff or Donna. The b&w handheld market is a commodity market. You can't much money off of it.
The only way for Handspring to survive besides merging is to create premium-priced products and services. If you translate the aforementioned sentence from conSLUTing jargon to regular english it would be: "We'll make healthy margins by ripping you off by selling you substandard devices and services which cost us next-to-nothing. Please buy again and thank you."
Its all SONY'S FAULT!
Go! CLIE go!
RE: Its all SONY'S FAULT!
There's a bit truth in this. Sony has better global access to points of sales/retailers, about 100 times more resources than Palm+Handspring and a comfortable choice of what to do next: either use Symbian platform for communicators (re. their cooperation with Ericsson) or use PalmOS or use both. In either case they can continue to launch new PDAs on a quarterly basis without even having to _think_ if that could be a 'make or break'. They produce LiIon cells, color displays, flash memory , what have you. If they need a special part they simply manufacture it. It's that kind of huge R&D + hardware + manufacturing resources combined with excellent brand name recognition
that's a nightmare to any competition ;)
It's a Sony!
However, what's rarely mentioned: if (only if) the 'communicator' market gets really interesting in terms of mass production, we'll see Nokia, Motorola and other big players for sure claim the lion part of that market. If that happens it'll be interesting to see if, how, and where Palm or Handspring could compete.
RE: Its all SONY'S FAULT!
RE: Its all SONY'S FAULT!
> numbers are higher than Sony's.
I didn't deny that. The difference is that Sony is a company that has a product portfolio that's magnitudes away from Palm or Handspring, who a) have to sell PDAs
for a living but don't have any other significant products and b) are selling these handhelds at a non- to low-margin in order to stay in business. As you can see from Palm's and Handspring's financial reports, they desperately have to look for investors because their regular operational business equals 'burning money' rather than making profit. I too could sell handhelds at a 'competitive' price if that pricing scheme is based on writing off inventory.
> In fact Sonys only seem to be available in major
> consumer electronics stores, not office supply or
> department stores where Visors are also available.
> The average Palm device consumer in the US barely
> knows that Handspring makes Palm OS compatible
> devices let alone Sony who is a complete unknown.
I agree about that. However the SONY brandname is by far better recognized in the world compared to a Palm logo. Would you seriously deny that? I refered to 'Sony' as a brandname and organization, not to the diminishing small PalmOS handheld business (i.e diminishing small compared to Sony's other businesses).
> Handspring and Palm already have devices to compete
> above and below the priceline of the S320 (now
> S360), which is the only device Sony was selling in
> any meaningful number.
Yes, sure, Palm is on the best was to lay off even more people and write off even more inventory. They sure can compete with any other PDA's pricing as long as they sell theirs without making profit. The *still* don't get it that they have no chance if it's about competitive pricing re. hardware manufacturing + innovative R&D. It's a pity. Of course, it's not a pity for Palm's management since its not _their personal money they're burning but it's shareholder's money that they have burned, are burning and are continuing to burn. It's as simple as that.
Fact or Fiction
I pointed out that Ed has jumped to the conclusion that since Hawkins didn't mention the Prism in his list of 'core' products that not only will it be discontinued, but that they will have no color Visor. This appears to me to be pure speculation. As Ms. Dubinsky said in the conference call two days ago, they try not talk about products they are developing before they ship.
Since Ed is willingly giving us his speculation on what Hawkins' vague comments must mean, I'd like to present another point of view. Two months ago, Handspring dropped the price of the Visor Prism. I would speculate that this indicates that a new color Visor is being prepared to replace it. At no point, two days ago or today, have Dubinsky or Hawkins said that they are not going to release any new organizers. Ed would have you beleive that since they don't talk about it that they must not be doing it. All Dubinsky or Hawkins have said is that they are a company that's beginning a transition.
The letter today reiterates the fact that the transition to a communicator producing company will be very gradual. I would say that it implys that if sales are high on organizers that they might even continue producing new ones for a while. If it's based on demand as Hawkins said, then that makes sense.
Don't take these comments the wrong way. I enjoy comming to this site every day to see what's new with the products I love to use. I just think it's important to present the facts as facts and the opinions separately. Don't mix the two and start rumors.
Nobody knows if Handspring will be comming out with more Visors or not except Hawkins and Dubinsky, and they aren't tipping their hand. Ed thinks they're bluffing, and has presented his opinion as fact in the above article. I think they might have a Royal Flush. Time will tell.
RE: Fact or Fiction
1) Handspring isn't doing well financially. It seems to me that they're betting all the resources (money and people) they've got on Treo. I don't know that they have the resources available to be also working on another new Visor.
2) What would this color device be and how low could they afford to sell it for? A color Pro or Neo wouldn't add much value over the existing Prism, though this would be the safe bet, IMO, as it would cost them the least to manufacture (use existing Prism parts and Pro/Neo parts). I don't think a color Edge is coming because I doubt that they could come out with a model which would compete favorably against a Sony CLIE, and I'm sure they know that.
So, if they *do* come out with a Prism replacement, I think it's far more likely that it will be a Pro/Neo color model. If they're smart enough to give it OS 4.x (which is doubtful) and sell it for $300, this could actually still be a decent product.
Scott
Awww you we're expecting prism II huh?
you now have to face the fact that its either your palm/sony or out.
graph
RE: Fact or Fiction
BTW, I think this is a bad idea. They should hold onto the Prism or improve it by adding more ram.
RE: Fact or Fiction
RE: Fact or Fiction
Besides, from a business view point, a strategic inclination towards wireless functionality make sense, Having a GSM model of Treo reflects a clear direction of Handspring - the international market - where mobile phone renewal rate is much higher than in US, and where GSM dominates. Most of us outside US will not find the new wireless Palm exciting, because the infrastructure won't support PQA. Handspring's Treo makes a lot of sense in terms of global marketing.
PDA is going to be a commodity and the market entry barrier is almost gone -I can imagine more brands will be coming from Asia (Acer is the first, and more clones will be coming). If a company has to enter into price wars with the likes of Sony, and all the other low cost producers, than it is better to differentiate itself from the rest. No business plan can sustain itself through a forever price war.
As regards Springboard compatibility, my view is that Springboard can be a separate issue. No one is saying the Treo family will not be compatible with Springboards, or the Visor family must have one. This is all driven by market demand and user expectation. We just can rule out in the 2nd or 3rd generation, the Treo family may come up with Springboard compatible models. If the Treo launch is successful, I am sure there will be all kinds of accessories that can play all these magic. But if it is like the Edge, then one would have to wait almost forever to a compatible keyboard.
On OS upgrade, I seldom see Nokia, Erission, or Motorola releasing OS patches to their high end, PIM integrated phones. Why Handspring has to be different just because it is running Palm OS ? At the end of the day, it is customer experience, not OS version, that is driving product success.
Just my 2 cents,
Francis Lo
Hong Kong
Why Springboard is doomed
--
This post is ROT26 encrypted. Reading it is a violation of the DMCA
RE: Why Springboard is doomed
Brian Lane
Lead Programmer
Shine Micro
http://www.shinemicro.com
---
Lead Programmer, Shine Micro http://www.shinemicr.com
Open Letter to Jeff Hawkins
I would like to officially apply for the position of CEO for Handspring. My qualifications are as follows:
I am a graduate with a BA in English
I have run a successful small business at a profit for the last 15 years.
I ran for political office once and lost but my campaign always operated in the black.
I know what comments not to make when I am interviewed.
Gregg
RE: Open Letter to Jeff Hawkins
Thank you for your interest in a position as CEO of our company. At this time, we feel that you are overqualified for the position but will keep your resume on file.
Regards,
Handspring
Lets all backpedal!
Get it together, Handspring. Mean what you say and say what you mean.
Get a Clie'.
RE: Lets all backpedal!
Facts, not Fiction!
I take this as positive - that there is a future in handheld computing after all, and not just a .com hype.
Well - we knew that; Hawkins created the GRiD in the early 80s, and even though the products haven't changed all that much, the market is awakening for real, and giving us idea-makers stuff to feed on.
I remembered just reading about a speech Hawkins held for Comdex 2001, and when I read this article, I felt like sharing a quote from his speech:
"The company plans to ship the black-and-white Treo by January, with a color version planned to be released by March or April, Hawkins said."
Check it out if you'd like: http://www.zdnet.com/special/stories/report/0,13518,5099592,00.html
So.. maybe not another Prism, but a color Treo :-)
PS:
I'm going to hold a speech at a seminar about handheld devices, and trying to get a hold of Hawkins.
If any of you know him, or have his email, drop me a line.
thomas@fjeld.net
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Spin Control
They are trying repair the damage they caused by by a premature slip of information no one was supposed to hear.