Comments on: Two PalmOS-Ready XScale Chips Announced by Intel

Intel Corp. today introduced the PXA250 and PXA210, which are part of the company's XScale family. The PXA250 runs at up to 400 MHz while the PXA210 runs at up to 200 MHz. Both are fully ARM architecture compliant and are part of the Palm OS Ready Program, meaning that either could be included in a Palm OS 5 powered device before this fall, though no company has announced that they will be using Intel's chips. Palm has said its first generation of OS 5 devices will run on processors from Texas Instruments.
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The End of Hacks

I.M. Anonymous @ 2/12/2002 2:18:16 PM #
Now not only will old hacks not work on the new machines, but new hacks may not either. If we've got a multi-platform OS with any number of different chips running it, nothing but the most white-bread programming will work on all of them.

...I just hope it doesn't lead to software bloat, or to multiple versions for every processor...

RE: The End of Hacks
I.M. Anonymous @ 2/12/2002 2:28:43 PM #
what you talking about? All ARM CPUs are compatible on binary level. With high clock there will be less need to optimize software for specific models such as Clie which limits portability.

RE: The End of Hacks
I.M. Anonymous @ 2/12/2002 2:34:32 PM #
Clie portability has nothing to do with the processor, or with the OS - it has to do with the "quick-and-dirty" approach the Sony engineers took to get a hi-res product out to market.

RE: The End of Hacks
I.M. Anonymous @ 2/12/2002 2:47:33 PM #
I meant software that uses MQ-1100 video accelerator used in Clie models -- this aint as portable as using standard Palm OS APIs. This should not be that big problem with ARMs as they are WAY faster and binary compatible, so there will be less need to do some non-CPU hardware optimisations.

RE: The End of Hacks
popko @ 2/12/2002 2:53:49 PM #
"MQ-1100 video accelerator used in Clie models ..."

Where can I get that and what app can make use of it. Right now gMovie and TealMovie are just too slow for watching even 30 second clips.

RE: The End of Hacks
I.M. Anonymous @ 2/12/2002 4:01:14 PM #
Say, using sony clie optimisations to make their games run faster.

RE: The End of Hacks
c_blue @ 2/12/2002 7:11:09 PM #
I thought the DAL (device abstration layer) on top of the HAL and below the PALM OS core was intended to eliminate the need to have many versions of PALM OS 5. I don't see why OS 5 hacks will not work...


RE: The End of Hacks
mtg101 @ 2/13/2002 5:48:39 AM #
PalmOS 5 currently doesn't have any real hack system. The problem with hacks is they make for a very insecure OS - which when you need to work in an enterprise environment just isn't good.

However, what PalmSource has done is to add many new notifications to the OS, which will allow most hacks to be rewritten to work on the new OS. Most hacks only want to know the user has performed a particular action, and then do something in reaction to this. This doesn't require a system patch, just a notification, and this is what PalmSource is providing. For example, this system will allow McPhiling to be rewritten for PalmOS 5, and the author is doing so.

Also before long there should be a HackMaster hack that provides these new notifications in pre-PalmOS 5 systems, so new hacks will work on older machines.

Going forwards, PalmSource is planning a new hack mechanism for PalmOS 5 - but they need to make sure that it's both powerful and secure - which isn't an easy task.



RE: The End of Hacks
I.M. Anonymous @ 2/13/2002 6:05:11 AM #
If this is the case, will the reverse approach be possible?
That is, create a new hackmaster for OS 5 that has the same API for hacks but uses notifications instead of patching traps?

If Most events can be mapped to notifications, then most hackmaster hacks should still work. And most hacks only use a small subset of the entire trap collection.

RE: The End of Hacks
mtg101 @ 2/13/2002 6:53:20 AM #
That's an interesting idea. A new app that takes notifications and then hands them to hacks pretending to be sysTraps.

Unfortunately I'm no expert on the HackMaster protocol, but it may be possible to do something like this for hacks that just need to be alerted to a user action. Any HackMaster experts watching? Is this possible?



RE: The End of Hacks
I.M. Anonymous @ 2/13/2002 4:09:23 PM #
Palm 4.1- hacks are changing memory directly, emulatung multithreading which aint in the OS. These are something like TSR (Terminate&Stay REsident) programs in old MS DOS. You can't do same trick in 32bit protected memory space -- it prevents other apps from modifying memory space and crashing the whole machine. Its like Windows 95 which can crash at any time and Windows XP -- many old MSDOS TSRs wont work.

But who cares, new OS 5.0, new APIs, if hacks were any good they would be rewritten and if they were not popular enough then they will die, simple.

RE: The End of Hacks
Kevin101 @ 1/23/2008 3:56:21 PM #
I am currently developing a manager and standard for "notification hacks". Hack developers will be able to create code resources that the manager will execute at notification or launch code time. With notifications, the OS hadle all conflicts internally!! Also, the code resources will only be locked while they are being executed. That means that users would be able to safely delete hacks with the Launcher at any time (that is, if the hack itself is coded properly).

Kevin Phelps

Wintel jumping in on Palm stuff?

I.M. Anonymous @ 2/12/2002 2:20:56 PM #
I'm suprised that Microsoft is tollerating Intel trying to get in on the new Palm OS stuff. It's been rumored for years that they've have a behind the scenes agreement to work together producing new processors and bloated operating systems that actually need them.

The fact that Intel is persuing a contract with Palm OS companies might jeopardize their "agreement" with Microsoft.

RE: Wintel jumping in on Palm stuff?
I.M. Anonymous @ 2/12/2002 2:31:08 PM #
MS has tried to break away from Intel in the past, quite unsuccessfully (look at the Alpha and PowerPC ports of Windows NT, for example). Intel has also invested in Linux companies over the past couple of years. Working with Palm gives Intel another avenue to sell chips, which is, after all, their business.

RE: Wintel jumping in on Palm stuff?
I.M. Anonymous @ 2/12/2002 3:29:20 PM #
Microsoft completely dropped their Alpha and PowerPC OS support.

RE: Wintel jumping in on Palm stuff?
I.M. Anonymous @ 2/12/2002 4:02:18 PM #
Intel is a HUGE company, where left hand doesn't necesserily have to work in sync with the right one.

Microsoft and Intel have to co-exist together, neither is powerful enough to kill each other, they both need each other. Microsoft flirts with AMD pissing off Intel, and Intel flirts with Linux, Palm.

400MHZ baby!

I.M. Anonymous @ 2/12/2002 3:43:16 PM #
"The PXA250 runs at up to 400 MHz while the PXA210 runs at up to 200 MHz. "

This is freakin awesome. Imagine the 400 mhz processor running OS 5. right now my Palm M500 can't even handle simcity type games. I can't freakin' wait...screw PPC's, as long as these new 'palms' come out with these processors, I'll still buy them :)

RE: 400MHZ baby!
I.M. Anonymous @ 2/12/2002 3:53:10 PM #
Why this obsession with games and video on Palm OS pdas?
Those are the ideals of the 'pc in your pocket' aka POCKET PC.

RE: 400MHZ baby!
I.M. Anonymous @ 2/12/2002 4:04:23 PM #
I want to have games in my pocket, and I don't care if its called PocketPC or Palm -- I will pick whichever offers me best stuff! PPC has got a better start, but PAlm has got a bigger installment base, so if they manage to get people to upgrade then potentially that would be a better gaming platform ala gameboy for adults.

the mhz rating only tells part of the story.
scaught @ 2/12/2002 8:02:55 PM #
dont get all excited about something just cause it has a rather unspecific spec like a mhz rating. ie. the new SGI workstations have a 500mhz processor and would roast any pentium or athlon chip.

RE: 400MHZ baby!
I.M. Anonymous @ 2/12/2002 8:32:59 PM #
Its ARM architecture. PocketPC runs on 203Mhz, its good enough to do software MP3 decoding, so 400Mhz will let you do somework plus listen to music.

RE: 400MHZ baby!
danger @ 2/12/2002 11:30:46 PM #
I find it interesting seeing the complete change in attitude regarding Palm devices from posters in this site now that the OS 5 details are rolling out.

RE: 400MHZ baby! for 30mins
I.M. Anonymous @ 2/13/2002 12:11:44 AM #
Face it..for people older than 15yrs they dont use games much. its only for show.... 400mhz? wow!!! Simcity and halflife?>?? wowww!!! opps 30mins up..gotta recharge again. man this thing is amazing,..cant wait for it to fully charge back again.


RE: 400MHZ baby!
I.M. Anonymous @ 2/13/2002 12:34:51 AM #
Tt said it had new technology so it lasts longer than the pocket pcs. Obivously 400mhz is too much power, so i'll probably go for the 200mhz one, and watch videos at NJIT or somethin', while recordin' the professors voice while playin' Simcity. Just an example of soon multi-tasking.
If Palm doesn't add Multi-tasking soon, I'll burn every freakin palm, and switch to PPC's.

"I'll kill you, burn you into flames, but you don't know my name"


RE: 400MHZ baby!
I.M. Anonymous @ 2/13/2002 2:02:12 AM #
Impressive, but 400mHz is probably overkill for most of the applications I would use. Hope there is someway to reduce clockspeed, so as to preserve batteries when I do not need the speed.

RE: 400MHZ baby!
mtg101 @ 2/13/2002 6:00:56 AM #
Apparently these chips have very low power consuption:

Reducing power consumption while racking up clock speed is clearly a major selling point for the latest chips, although Intel refused to compare the latest processors to other ARM-based designs. However, David Rogers, communications manager for the vendor's handhelds group, said the 400MHz part consumed a third less power than the 200MHz StrongARM.



RE: 400MHZ baby!
I.M. Anonymous @ 2/13/2002 9:19:37 AM #
hello? 400mhz is just a NUMBER. it DOES NOT reflect real world performance (ie, computations per second) at all. nothing to get too excited about just yet, people...

RE: 400MHZ baby!
I.M. Anonymous @ 2/13/2002 9:21:43 AM #
Xscale CPUS feature dynamic frequency throttling -- they can clock down on the fly, so when you run a Memo it can run at 33Mhz, but when you switch to MPEG4 movie it will work on full 400Mhz. 10h+ battery life in FULL mode is fine for me. Would be good if they would allow easy swap of batteries though

RE: 400MHZ baby!
I.M. Anonymous @ 2/13/2002 12:02:26 PM #
"would be good if they'd allow an easy swap of batteries though"

Yes, unfortunately trends aren't going in that direction, so I'm not hopeful. Howeverif more devices had a DC port on the side like the HandEra 330 you could still supplement power when away from the cradle and/or using a keyboard/gps/sled accessory.

What will need more CPU oomph (though not 400Mhz by any means) is the system wide encryption, VPN, and even the non-video media rendering in the browser of OS5.

RE: 400MHZ baby!
I.M. Anonymous @ 2/13/2002 4:12:29 PM #
We need as fast CPUs as we can get, but ensure that they clock-down automatically when running non-demanding tasks -- this way you get best of both worlds when YOU need it.

RE: 400MHZ baby!
I.M. Anonymous @ 2/13/2002 11:38:53 PM #
Which these Intel chips do. As the article says,

"These new processors support Intel's new Turbo mode technology. This lets the processor scale the performance as high or as low as necessary in a single clock cycle, which helps conserve battery life while still providing the necessary boosts in performance."

RE: 400MHZ baby!
Kevin101 @ 1/23/2008 4:10:26 PM #
Why not use a 400MHz processor clocked down to 200MHz by default? Then an application can clock it up (games, video) or down (PIM apps) to whatever speed they need. Apps could be optimized to run as fast as possible on the lowest possible speed. The result...longer battery life. Also, there could be a use setting to set the maximum clock speed for each application.

Kevin Phelps

I love INTEL

I.M. Anonymous @ 2/12/2002 4:16:45 PM #
INTEL is a great, innovative, non-stop, never-sleep, hardworking company. I'm glad Palm has partnered-up with them. Maybe Intel's driving technology can give a kick in the a$$ to the sleepy Palm gang.

RE: I love INTEL
mfs @ 2/12/2002 4:56:48 PM #
>Palm has partnered-up with them

Palm teamed up with TI not Intel...

RE: I love TI
I.M. Anonymous @ 2/12/2002 8:39:34 PM #
TI is a great, innovative, non-stop, never-sleep, hardworking company. I'm glad Palm has partnered-up with them. Maybe TI's driving technology can give a kick in the a$$ to the sleepy Palm gang.

RE: I love INTEL
I.M. Anonymous @ 2/12/2002 9:31:30 PM #
hehe ... I think although Palm is with TI now, I think they may switch over to Intel. TI has a low power chip, meaning smaller power consumption. The Intel one is powerful, but means you get battery life like that of the PPC ...

Sooner or later, people are going to bug them about having more multimedia features and they will switch over to Intel. What do you guys think ?

RE: I love INTEL
I.M. Anonymous @ 2/12/2002 9:50:34 PM #
Palm has already partnered with Intel, it's just not been made public yet. Intel will provide a power-efficient yet powerful XScale processor technology. "Only the paranoid survive."

Carl is back...

I.M. Anonymous @ 2/12/2002 11:48:31 PM #
GeoPhoenix gets new executive chairman
By Richard Shim
Staff Writer, CNET
February 12, 2002, 9:20 AM PT

User interface company GeoPhoenix announced on Tuesday that former Palm Chief Executive Carl Yankowski is joining the company as the executive chairman. The company is building an interface that will present a consistent look regardless of the type of device--from large kiosk to handheld--or the amount of information that a person needs to navigate. Company executives said in a release that Yankowski's knowledge of the handheld industry and his understanding of the challenges that developers face will help to bring the interface to market.
Yankowski has also served as CEO of Reebok and president and chief operating officer of Sony Electronics.

I guess he'll destroy this company too! Poor Carl...

Replace the up-down button with pointer stick

I.M. Anonymous @ 2/13/2002 1:54:42 AM #
We had heard many wishlists for the new OS5 but not much about the buttons on the PDA or handphone. I wish all new Palm-OS handhelds will replace the up-down button with the pointer stick like the Sony-Ericsson T68 handphone. The jogdial is still good but you can't scroll left or right with one hand. Unlike the latter, the pointer allows you to scroll in any 360 degrees direction like the pointer in the IBM thinkpad. This makes the handheld suitable for playing games, navigating emails and ebooks, and browsing webpages. I believe that the button layout needs to be improved and simplified to make the PDA a better tool for other uses besides PIM. Hope all Palm-OS handheld makers are reading this comment and implementing the change before ARM-handhelds or OS5.

First Bluetooth XScale-based PDA set for CeBIT launch

I.M. Anonymous @ 2/13/2002 3:39:15 AM #
Ed you said: "though no company has announced that they will be using Intel's chips."

Maybe they didn't 'announced' it yet, but the picture is quite clear......

First XScale-based PDA set for CeBIT launch

Tuesday 5 February 2002

Fujitsu Siemens Computers is expected to be the first vendor to launch a PDA based on Intel's next-generation XScale processor.

The device, dubbed Pocket LOOX, is expected to have an Intel XScale processor running at 300MHz. PDAs available today, equipped with Intel's fastest StrongARM processor, run at a maximum of 206MHz.

The product is expected to be launched at the CeBIT tradeshow in Germany next month and will come with native support for Bluetooth and an expansion slot for a separately sold General Packet Radio Service (GPRS) card. The GPRS card provides data connections when away from a Bluetooth access point, but also converts the PDA into a mobile phone.

The Pocket LOOX is expected to have a price similar to PDAs based on Microsoft's PocketPC 2002 and will initially be available in Europe only.

Erster Pocket PC mit XScale-Prozessor (First Pocket PC with XScale Processor)

Fujitsu Siemens with Bluetooth PocketPC:

(Fujitsu-Siemens Press release) Ultraslim Pocket PC: modular expandable
Fujitsu Siemens Computers will launch its new high end PDA, the Pocket LOOX, at CeBIT 2002

Fujitsu Siemens drops PPC 2002 bomb


Fujitsu-Siemens Pocket LOOX

Toshiba PDA With New Intel Processor
I.M. Anonymous @ 2/13/2002 8:35:56 AM #
Toshiba to Offer Enhanced PDA With New Intel Processor and Wireless Connectivity



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