Comments on: Palm Says Microsoft/DOJ Settlement Is Inadequate

In accordance with anti-trust law, the Department of Justice has published comments submitted on its settlement of the anti-trust suit against Microsoft. Palm Inc.'s comments are very critical of Microsoft and the settlement itself.

Palm starts off by accusing Microsoft of "already engaging in actions designed to unfairly extend its personal computing operating system monopoly into the mobile computing market by eliminating competition and preventing free customer choice." According to Palm, the settlement between the DOJ and Microsoft doesn't do anything to stop what Microsoft is already doing and doesn't do anything to prevent future uncompetitive actions by Microsoft.

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Sad sad story.......

Emma @ 2/18/2002 9:19:44 AM #
So much for the so called DOJ settlement. It was even less than a slap on the wrist.

Shame on Microsoft for depending on these sort of repulsive tactics to maintain dominance. It only shows they've run out of ideas and their days as a major tech force are numbered.

RE: Sad sad story.......
I.M. Anonymous @ 2/18/2002 9:28:12 AM #
You can thank the Bush administration. Everything about the Microsoft settlement changed when he came into office. The rich get richer and the poor get poorer just like when his old man was president. BTW not toe Palm; shutup and innovate.

RE: Sad sad story.......
I.M. Anonymous @ 2/18/2002 9:34:10 AM #
I'm so pissed off at this story that I've decided to cancel my .NET service in protest.

Maybe my Pc and windows will follow next. (Hey the new iMac doesn't look so bad you know!)

RE: Sad sad story.......
I.M. Anonymous @ 2/18/2002 9:51:35 AM #
Quit sniveling and build a better mousetrap then. I started off with a PalmPilot in 1997 and then moved to Windows CE in 1998. I went through 3 WinCE devices before I returned to the Palm OS in 2001 and I will stay with it. Handspring was very enticing and convincing with their expandability. So it can be done, swaying people away but first off, you need to have the better machine and then market it better.

The whole Microsoft suit was not borne out of MS being a monopoly rather Bill Gates failure in the early 1990's and pony up a big campaign I mean contribution to the Clinton administration. I guess the $50,000 wasnt enough compared to the 1 ro 2 million dollar "gifts" that were given by other big wigs in the industry.

So my advice to Palm is to shut up, build the better product and take them on head to head. And, in the mean time, quit sniveling...Whineing is for the rest of the world to do, not Americans.

RE: Sad sad story.......
I.M. Anonymous @ 2/18/2002 10:06:06 AM #
Build a better mousetrap?

Sure, but not when the "better mouse trap" is judged by how well it connects to the MSFT mouse tunnel!
(You've got to make the tunnel dimensions available first).

RE: Sad sad story.......
I.M. Anonymous @ 2/18/2002 10:06:10 AM #
Did you read the article at all? Or do you reject all evidence that doesn't fit in with your preconceived belief that everything Microsoft does is good and the government is pursuing poor innocent Microsoft. Palm, PalmSource, etc. can't build a better product as long as Microsoft has the ability and the will to deliberately change Windows to break Palm's applications.

Many people have asked why PalmSource doesn't just give up on the Palm Desktop and connect directly to Outlook. Here's your answer, Microsoft won't let that happen. As soon as Palm did so, Microsoft would change Outlook to break Palm's connection to it. And will do so as many times as it takes.

This isn't about the Palm OS being better that Pocket PPC or vice versa. It's about Microsoft using its PC monopoly to make a handheld monopoly.

Read that email from Bill Gates again. This isn't accidental. They is a deliberate plot by the Chairman of Microsoft to break the laws of this country. So which is it, is Bill Gates an idiot or a crook?

Doesn't this make you angry at all? Microsoft has seen it can't beat Palm fair and square so it is willing to use dirty tricks. If it can't win through fair competition, it will just cheat.

RE: Sad sad story.......
I.M. Anonymous @ 2/18/2002 12:04:52 PM #
Onece upon a time there were no computers, Microsoft didn't have the monopoly then. They just built a good system. I like Linux not as user friendly as MS but more stable.

RE: Sad sad story.......
I.M. Anonymous @ 2/18/2002 12:13:45 PM #
"Onece upon a time there were no computers, Microsoft didn't have the monopoly then. They just built a good system. I like Linux not as user friendly as MS but more stable."


RE: Sad sad story.......
I.M. Anonymous @ 2/18/2002 1:08:12 PM #
Ahem.....if you believe that Republicans have any true effect on the DOJ's case, and if you believe that a Republican leadership is one where "the rich get richer, and the poor get poorer", then you know as little about America as those that are trying to hijack our planes.

And even if the rich ARE getting richer, don't put the cart before the horse. It takes RICH people to have enough capital to START a business and fuel the economy.....IT'S AS SIMPLE AS THAT.

Bush (and more importantly, his cabinet) are the best thing that have happened to this country in a long time.

Have fun in your make-believe world.

Clue up, bud.

RE: Sad sad story.......
I.M. Anonymous @ 2/18/2002 4:25:55 PM #
Oh boy! Update your reality, man. You're spouting the exact reasons why the Sherman Anti-trust act was created and why Microsoft is in violation of it.

As for Bush and his cabinet, they are the worst thing to happen to this great nation since the McCarthy era in terms of civil rights, conservation and basic police-state enforcement tactics. Intelligent people not in the pocket of big business will do everything they can to make sure this usurper is dethroned in 2004!

My god, your post makes you sound like the Enron CEO! 8-)

RE: Sad sad story.......
I.M. Anonymous @ 2/18/2002 5:22:40 PM #
"The rich get richer and the poor get poorer ..."

This is probably the most fatuous of Marx's slogans (which is saying something). It is also wrong.

Let's put it in perspective: The slogan was first written in England in the 1850s. Are there any industrial workers today who are poorer than those who toiled in the 'dark satanic mills'? No, working conditions and standards of living today are vastly better than they were in the 1850s. Are today's plutocrats richer than those of the 1850s? Taking into account changes in purchasing power and the impact of income taxes, it is false to say that the rich are richer than they were 150 years ago.

If you want to use ridiculous slogans like these, fine, but they only weaken your case.

RE: Sad sad story.......
I.M. Anonymous @ 2/18/2002 8:29:04 PM #
"As for Bush and his cabinet, they are the worst thing to happen to this great nation since the McCarthy era in terms of civil rights, conservation and basic police-state enforcement tactics. Intelligent people not in the pocket of big business will do everything they can to make sure this usurper is dethroned in 2004"

1. Obviously you're not intelligent, and you're a whining idiot who doesn't know a thing about reality yourself. Take a course in Microeconomics and Macroeconomics (when you get to college, I bet you're still in Middle School). There's a reason that big business got big--and it wasn't b/c of the government, it was b/c they're educated, got ahead, made money. They're intelligent, and they vote intelligent. That usually equals Republican. Only fairy-tale Hollywood folks (spoon-fed and the real spoiled millionaires) and the people they influence (which is unfortunately alot of gullible people) believe your liberal lie.

2. Bush is a man of principle, which has been foreign to the White House for 8 years prior to his arrival.

3. If you really think he had anything to do w/ the DOJ ruling, you need to go read the Constitution once again (or have you not gotten that far in school?)

RE: Sad sad story.......
I.M. Anonymous @ 2/18/2002 8:52:25 PM #
That fool isn't worth replying to.

He probably voted Democrat in the foolish hopes that he'd get his Social Security when he retires (he won't anyway....none of us will, nor should we)

When the government can run and execute an effective postal system, i.e. mail delivery, *MAYBE* I'll consider pumping more money into it (i.e. DEMOCRAT), until then, I'll pass on giving money to people who want to fart out babies and collect free money, and keep whittling away at some future invention that will make the lives of Americans BETTER. One that will create jobs, and opportunity for people of varying levels of education. Now THAT's a REPUBLICAN...a REAL American.

I'm so sick of this case.

I.M. Anonymous @ 2/18/2002 9:47:03 AM #
I wish the government would just end this thing. MSFT has provided so much good for our country - great products, jobs, platform for others' products, investor return, charitable contributions, taxes-paid, and this is the thanks they get - attempted crucifiction. What a shame. I think we should be honoring MSFT, not crucifying them.

RE: I'm so sick of this case.
I.M. Anonymous @ 2/18/2002 9:56:34 AM #
Crawl back to your hole. You should indeed be sick of your master Bill....asking his staff to play around with code just to shut out rivals. What a joke the great Microsoft has become!

BTW pls don't talk about 'great products'. It's precisely tactics like the above that killed a lot of truly great products and must NOT happen yet again.

RE: I'm so sick of this case.
I.M. Anonymous @ 2/18/2002 9:59:57 AM #
"...great products.." LOL!

Thank you Microsoft
I.M. Anonymous @ 2/18/2002 10:16:08 AM #
What would all the virus writers and crackers do without MSFT? They owe their entire existence to Windows.

RE: I'm so sick of this case.
rigter @ 2/18/2002 10:21:37 AM #
This Bill Gates reminds me of George Bush.

Both fail to notice that the world is actually bigger than their own back yard.
Both think in black and white: if you're not with us, you're against us.
Both do not accept people who have an opinion of their own.

I won't even comment on the first poster's "great products". That person needs medical assistance.


RE: I'm so sick of this case.
I.M. Anonymous @ 2/18/2002 10:33:41 AM #
The USA and the rest of the world is a much better place because of great men like George W. Bush and Bill Gates. Thank God for them.

RE: I'm so ... whatever ...
I.M. Anonymous @ 2/18/2002 10:35:16 AM #
The Register is salivating of this one:

"...This quite sensational document opens up a new chapter in the competitive saga, and means Microsoft has a new, wealthy public opponent of a kind it's not encountered before..."

RE: I'm so sick of this case.
I.M. Anonymous @ 2/18/2002 11:14:04 AM #
There's a tradeoff to be had in any situation. A wise (albeit somewhat derranged) man once said " put somebody with the power at the controls, and you watch that old buggy rock." A lot of responsibility goes along with the kind of influence Microsoft has. Unfortunately, Mr. Gates seems to feel that the responsibility he has to be attentive to is only societal in nature.

While I applaud his charitable contributions, it just doesn't make up for the fact that the bulk of his wealth comes at the expense of choice, and through that, the jobs of a multitude of small companies that would have had a chance were it not for the cannibalistic tactics Microsoft has employed throughout the years.

Microsoft has not CREATED jobs. Quite the opposite, in fact. The Internet was publicized at the right time, but not solely by Microsoft. The PC price wars resulting in consumer purchases at the scale they were was also not Microsoft's doing. What Microsoft DID do during this period, was to cement their monopoly and discourage or bankrupt competitors using its deep pockets.

What innovation occurred during the reign of Gates was done depsite him, not due to him. Get that right at the least.

RE: I'm so sick of this case.
I.M. Anonymous @ 2/18/2002 11:48:32 AM #
If it was not for Bin-Laden, Bush would still think Afghanistan is in the Carribean!!!! or somewhere around there!

And if it was not for Bush the case (M$) would be settled by now!

Just my 2c!

RE: I'm so sick of this case.
I.M. Anonymous @ 2/18/2002 3:00:29 PM #
Thank God for Bush. If we had Clinton or that phony Gore and his bearded-sandal-wearing liberals, we'd still be trying to negotiate with Bin Laden while getting terrorized and suicide-bombed while Gore is busy polling on public opinion. God bless GWB!!!!!!

RE: I'm so sick of this case.
I.M. Anonymous @ 2/18/2002 3:32:07 PM #
Ahh yes, honest ol' Dubbya. Too bad he's so far in Enron's and other big companies' pockets he's ruining the economy. Remember all those years of prosperity? Then the Republicans were elected and now we've got huge budget deficits. The Onion said it best when Bush was first elected: "Our Long National Nightmare of Peace and Prosperity is Finally Over".

RE: I'm so sick of this case.
I.M. Anonymous @ 2/18/2002 4:44:04 PM #
The prosperity began in 1981 when Reagan took office. By the way, I partially blame 9-11 on that scoundrel Bill Clinton - if he wasn't so busy getting BJ's in the Oval Office and gutting the CIA, the FBI, and the military, maybe 9-11 would have never happened.

RE: I'm so sick of this case.
I.M. Anonymous @ 2/18/2002 4:44:42 PM #
Actually, the economy began to fall apart under Clinton. The economic prosperity that Clinton and Democrats love to take credit for actaully had more to do with his predicessors than with him. Sadly, the Democrats continue to point fingers at the president with regards to Enron. Leiberman was more involved in that mess than the president, and he's running the investigation!? When all the dust has settled, the Democrat's alligations will have been proven false, but no one will know or care because the Democratic press will have moved on to other issues to complain about.

I for one am very supportive of the president. It bothers me that he is being compared to Bill Gates. One is a leader who has rallied the country since September 11th, the other is indirectly responsible for the production of software that is exploited hourly around the world by hackers.

If Clinton were in office, he'd probably give a full pardon to Microsoft anyway!

I'm so sick of republicans.
I.M. Anonymous @ 2/18/2002 10:53:34 PM #
Yeah, I'm sure that Clinton would have given MSFT a TOTAL pardon.

I mean, after all, he's the one that gave the justice department the green light to prosicute them, right? He would of course want them to get off as light as pos...

Wait. Why diden't he squash this earlier? Your idea don't fly. Sorry! Go back to listening to Rushie-poo tell his little supply-side fairy tales and come back when you've got something that makes sense.

RE: I'm so sick of this case.
skoty @ 2/19/2002 11:14:58 AM #
Sorry, that last comment I made was a little tongue in cheek. Everything else I said was serious though. Why didn't you refute any of my other comments?

Probably becuase the economy DID begin to fall apart under Clinton. And because Leiberman is involved in the Enron investigation just so he can cover his own ASS. And also because I'm right, the president should not be compared in any way to the man who makes the world feel insecure about using computers because his operating system is hacked hourly.

(Has anyone else noticed that Windows 2000 is having critical updates posted about once a week lately?)

If at first you don't succeed, then skydiving definately isn't for you.

Things WE can do...

rigter @ 2/18/2002 9:41:32 AM #
This could hardly be news to those who have followed the trials so far. Microsoft uses every trick in the book to keep competition out.
Changing existing code to screw up third party programs is nothing new. Forcing hardware resellers to bundle their products with MS software is nothing new either.

The whole new licensing strategy around XP/.NET means only one thing: more control and more cash for Microsoft (well, that's two actually).

But we should admit that we're at least part of it.
Who are all these people who keep buying this software? That's us. Even if you're not paying for it. If you're using it you are contributing to its popularity.

I refuse to 'upgrade' to XP.
I don't want WinCE or any derivative.

It is time to UPGRADE my main machine at home to Linux. I used to work dual boot, but I will not even try to install XP anymore.
Modern distributions like SuSE and RedHat come with every application you could dream of, including office.

You're part of the problem too. The standard desktop is Windows. Mac is kind of supported, too. Why not Linux? Mac OS X is Unix-based. Porting that to Linux should be easy. Again, why not?

Reviewers check Windows performance and mention Mac software if it's there and consider it a bonus.
Ed, why not Linux?

These office applications know how to deal with office file formats. Many companies still use office95 or 97. If you can use a neutral file format for them, why not use a neutral file format anyway?

And as for which pda....
Only Palms and Handsprings are readily available over here. The only Sony around here is the N770C, costing more than 500 euro.
The Edge is coming down in price fast (279), so maybe that's a nice candidate?


putting up flame shield

RE: Things WE can do...
peter167 @ 2/18/2002 10:33:13 AM #
Hey, man. I agree with you.

But the problem is that sometimes we don't have choice. If you are going to buy a new PC, the chance of having Windows OS preloaded is 99%. Under windows OS, the chance of having MS Office is another 99%. The WMP is another 99%.

Linux is not mature yet for non-commercial users.

What are we going to do? Or say .. What can we do?

RE: Things WE can do...
rigter @ 2/18/2002 10:40:39 AM #

Many harware sellers will sell you a machine without windows if you ask for it. There is also an initiative going on for a Windows Refund.
This page: calls itself their homepage. Must be more of them around.

Many companies and indeed governments are considering a switch to Linux for at least a significant part of their machines. You don't have to change all of your machines at once. Mail servers, file/print servers, intra/internet servers will perform fine with Linux. Usually even better than their Windows counterparts.

Major companies like IBM, SUN and on and on support Linux with their products.

The point is: you've got to start somewhere. Why not now?

Just say yes.


RE: Things WE can do...
I.M. Anonymous @ 2/18/2002 11:00:02 AM #
The MSFT-bashers are all talk, no action. They all run Windows and Office and IE but they cry about MSFT monopoly. Hypocrites!!! Go buy a Mac or Linux and shut up!!!! These are the same "life is not fair" "oh woe is me" loser crowd always blaming someone else for their own misfortune. Well, many of us like MSFT and their products. I hate Macs - do I complain? No! I just don't buy one. And then you have the programmers who all bash MSFT but they will freely admit that they make a lot of money of off piggybacking off of MSFT products. Stop your bittccchhing and get over it. thgis country needs to move on already.

I.M. Anonymous @ 2/18/2002 11:09:03 AM #
Microsoft-bashers use MS products becouse they know they're good, its not becouse they have no other choice
they of course have to pretend

RE: Things WE can do...
peter167 @ 2/18/2002 11:18:43 AM #

It is interesting for the idea to get refunded, but I don't know how the process works, and personally I have not tried myself. I bought clone computers most of the time.

Yes, the commercial users are switching to Linux. It is a definite trend. Unless Linux and Linux-based software companies get the money paid by commercial uses and re-invested into future development, end users will have a difficult time to switch away from Microsoft.

Some of us have tried Mandrake and/or Redhat. How easy is to use that? If I ask my neighbor just to try it for a few weeks, they will quit using it in maybe just the first hour. Not all people all techies. And people are afraid to "break" their computer.

Linux is not mature for non-commercial uses (end-users) yet.

RE: Things WE can do...
I.M. Anonymous @ 2/18/2002 11:18:48 AM #
If Microsoft is so great, why do you feel the need to defend it? Surely you believe that Microsoft is greater than some pesky old government. Who cares that they have been found guilty of breaking numerous laws? Might makes right. The ends justify the means. Charging $300 for a measly bug-fix is OK because Microsoft can force you to do it. And if you give in, you must like it, right? And the woman who gets raped was asking for it, too.

Everything Microsoft does is right. It's great that soon Microsoft will control all desktops, servers, handhelds, home electronics, cars, phones, cameras, and anything else electronic. That's not too much power for one company and one man to have. I trust Bill Gates to be absolutely honest and it doesn't make me nervous that soon he'll have total control of almost every part of my life. He would never, never abuse that power for his own personal profit.

Brought to you by the Campaign to Give Bill Gates Absolute Power

RE: Things WE can do...
montyburns @ 2/18/2002 11:22:44 AM #
I walk the walk and talk the talk as much as I can.

I run StarOffice instead of Office. I use Netscape Mail instead of Outlook. Windows 2000 is only around to play my games - there are alternatives to Microsoft.

I like my Palm!

RE: Things WE can do...
sir_tez @ 2/18/2002 11:24:29 AM #

I'd also like to see a report on current Linux support for Palm devices. I know there are a few programs out there but I'm not about to experiment with them on my own m505 : ) I'd love to see Palm Desktop ported to Linux though. In fact, that could tie in well with IBM's and Sun's push for Linux mindshare.


Sir Tez
IT is a rough life

RE: Things WE can do...
Ed @ 2/18/2002 11:30:34 AM #
Sir Tez, I'd be happy to do that but I'm limited by the fact that I don't run Linux. It's hard enough writing about Windows-only apps when I use a Macintosh. If you would be interested in putting something together based on your own research, I'd be happy to print it.

News Editor
RE: Things WE can do...
I.M. Anonymous @ 2/18/2002 11:42:25 AM #
Yes, when I called or mailed palm for Linux support there was not much coming back but that right now they can not support that platform!!!!!

It seems they are not doing enough themself!!

There are enough projects out there trying to connect the pALM platform to something else but linux and Palm is to arrogant to support them!!
They're diging their on grave!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

RE: Things WE can do...
justincase @ 2/18/2002 12:26:33 PM #
Having been a Linux/Palm user for a while, there are many good tools currently available that will allow you to connect to most palms. I'm currently using JPilot w/MAL sync plugin (for Avantgo). JPilot looks very similar to Palm Desktop. I also use the Gnome conduit to sync to the Ximian Evolution mail client (similar to Outlook). There are a lot of different tools out there, some better then others, but the support is quite good. Newer versions of the kernel will allow you to sync via USB (>2.4.6 I believe) with a tweak or two. Overall, I find KDE and Gnome support quite good.

RE: Things WE can do...
jjsoh @ 2/19/2002 1:35:22 AM #
I think the majority of Linux users don't need to have Palm create a 'Desktop for Linux' because there are already enough choices out there for Palm users to play with (as justincase has mentioned a few).

I'm not sure I see what the big deal is. IMHO, Palm Desktop is admittedly functional, but far from stellar. Certainly not any better than what's already out there for Linux, so I can see why Palm may not want to invest time in creating one (at least not yet, anyway).

Besides, I believe most people now running Linux as their desktop of choice are more than capable of finding ways to connect their Palm devices with their Linux desktops on their own. There is already a wealth of resources out there on the Internet for Palm-owning Linux users, primarily due to the collective contributions and support from the Linux community.

Sure, it'd be nice if Palm would at least take a chance and create a desktop for Linux, but why should they when there are already other perfectly fine alternatives? I'd rather see Palm focus on getting more innovative, than spending more time playing catch up to support an OS with a very small percentage of desktop marketshare (which seemingly appears to be self-sufficient, anyway).

There may be more big companies supporting Linux (i.e. IBM, HP, SUN, etc.), but most of them are focused on servers, not workstations (which, of course, are where most of the desktops would be).


p.s. IMA troll posts suck. :P

RE: Things WE can do...
rigter @ 2/19/2002 2:49:50 AM #
It's nice to see so many constructive posts by people who have actually given the subject some thought.

I agree with Jim that many companies who support Linux do so at 'server level', not at worlstation level. But that's fine. I hope that many companies around the world will start noticing that there is life besides Microsoft. FUD tactics are just that, fear uncertainty and doubt. IBM invented those, Microsoft perfected them.

I also agree with the poster who says that the average Linux junkie will have no problems connecting his handheld to his/her pc. I have been running Linux for a couple of years now, but I didn't even know it was there!
Okay, my fault perhaps, but I guess I expected to find at least some info on PIC. By following the latest and the hottest on sites like PIC you won't hear a thing about Linux. How about another entry in the Main Menu? "Linux"

But Ed is probably right, too. He's got two hands, a single head and there's only 24 hours in a day.

I think you will be suprised to see how easy modern Linux distro's are. They have come a long way. Check this Ximian thing for example.

Some poster mentioned Ximian. So I went to to check it out. WOW.
My grandmother could use that, and it looks slick. This Evolution program looks like the missing link in office applications for Linux.

Is there a possibility to make PIC even better by adding Linux info one way or another?
I know the P stands for Palm, but I wouldn't be surprised if Linux users outnumbered Mac users. So if you're gonna do Mac, you will have to do Linux too.
Am I right?

Hmmm... maybe we should clone Ed.
dd if=ED of=EDD


Lowering flame shield

RE: Things WE can do...
peter167 @ 2/19/2002 3:26:31 AM #

The problems end users experience is not the GUI, given that they are well cloned like Windows already.

The most painful part to use Linux is that the interoperability between the OS and its software. How many people who have used Linux has trouble when they try to install new programs? I.E. GTK, c++ compiler, (the list goes on...)

Linux is not mature yet for end users (once again, not because of GUI.)

P.S. I swear no IT managers have thought about running Linux on their workstations because it will be a nightmare (not because of blue screens).

RE: Things WE can do...
rigter @ 2/19/2002 3:37:45 AM #

I accept the fact that many first time users of Linux will be scared to death when trying to rpm something into their machine and suddenly dependency errors fly all over the place. Been there, done that.

But IT managers are not alone in their bedroom wrestling with an OS that seems to have a life of its own.
They usually have professional system administrators, many of them Linux junkies at home. Guys who know Unix because a lot of big servers still run that stuff. There is a wealth of *nix administrators out there.
What reason does this IT manager have?

Linux support is readily available from a lot of sources. Healthy competition there.

Office productivity and communication are well covered by Linux now. It's the 'other' end-user applications that are still lacking. Something like CAD CAM for example, or financial software...

And that was my point when asking this question about a Linux entry in the Main Menu.
Stimulate Linux activity by paying attention to those people/companies who actually do something with it. And inform us, the PIC readers, along the way.

And I guess you're right when you're saying that Linux isn't at the level of administration-ease that other OSes are with a point-and-shoot interface. But tools are being developed for that rapidly.
I am amazed at the level of a tool like Yast2 (SuSE) for example. I upgraded a machine from 6.4 to 7.2 yesterday and it was a revelation. I didn't have to do anything! And SuSE is already at 7.3! Can't wait for 7.4. I hope it will have KDE3 and the next version of OpenOffice (StarOffice), both scheduled for the coming months. But I digress...


RE: Things WE can do...
I.M. Anonymous @ 2/19/2002 8:24:08 AM #
I've just about reached a boiling point of sorts myself about this whole
thing. Why don't we have competition? Because it's hard. People
tend to give up and go with the flow.

Case in point... recently changed their website for some
unknown reason. Now I can't use it. I am using Netscape 4.79 as
my browser. I sent them an email asking them to fix their website
and they said to switch to IE 6.0 or to use Netscape 6.0 (at least they
responded!). Their old site worked perfectly in 4.79. Companies have
become lazy and only test against IE; they don't bother to test against
Netscape anymore. Nevermind that IE isn't available on anything but

On the plus side, seems to indicate that they are looking into
fixing their problem. I've sent emails to other sites that are broken, and
they just say that they only support IE 6.0. This started a while ago for
me, as soon as I installed Quicken 2000. It insisted that if I wanted to
use any Internet functions of Quicken I *HAD* to install IE, even though
it detected that I had Netscape installed already, and had uninstalled
IE. So I *HAVE* to have both installed. I noted that Intuit didn't mention
this anywhere on their box about only using IE. Besides Quicken, the
reason I haven't switched to Linux completely is that my games don't
work there. All other apps I need have Linux versions, or equivalents.
There's even Palm syncing software, although I haven't figured out how
to get it to work right yet. Palm could help a lot here.

Many companies have rolled over and given in or given up. This is
Microsoft's goal, as their illegal activities have demonstrated over
many years.

-- Pds

RE: Things WE can do...
Ed @ 2/19/2002 9:04:22 AM #
> I guess I expected to find at least some info on PIC. By following the latest and
> the hottest on sites like PIC you won't hear a thing about Linux. How about
> another entry in the Main Menu? "Linux"

Hopefully this won't destroy your image of me as some kind of all-knowing Palm god ;-) but I depend heavily on people like you to tip me off to new applications. I promise you, I print everything I hear about new Linux for Palm apps. For example, we heavily covered Empower Technologies' Linux DA OS. But that's about all I've heard from the Linux camp in a long time.

If you are a Linux enthusiast or developer, please let me know about any new Linux related apps or updates you know about and I'll cheerfully cover them.

Like I said before, I'm not qualified to write a full "How to connect you Palm to your Linux Box". I'd make horrible errors that would have you guys flaming me for weeks. But if someone who knows what they are talking about wants to write one, please contact me.


News Editor

RE: Nothings WE can do...
I.M. Anonymous @ 2/19/2002 10:06:42 PM #
I don't like English, but every student in Taiwan are forced to learn English from 9 years to 20 years old, because English seems to be the most common worldwide communication protocol. So, even I complain everyday but the truth is no single student can avoid the English course in Taiwan.

Similarly, I don't like Microsoft, but due to it's dominance on OS market, I must force myself to learn about the win2000, xp, Office, VB, Outlook, SQL Server....If not, I can't find a good job in IT fileds.
I don't like VB/SQL-Server at all but the truth is everyone in our company must be familiar with that....

RE: Things WE can do...
rigter @ 2/20/2002 3:49:43 AM #

Point taken.
(ehh, you're really not a god? Come on, you're jokin' right? Be careful Ed, my view of the world is very fragile. Ouch, oops there it went, oh well.)

But I think that even now, with a limited knowledge of Linux at PIC, some things could be done.

Information is a key point here imo. Assuming that PIC would make the decision to include Linux info, it could start by offering (links to) basic information such as howto's, software and hardware manufacturers. Just like you guys do for Windows based counterparts.

Found this page very helpful for example. I'm not suggesting you copy that, just an impression.

An easy argument would be that apparently there are sites for geeks, so why PIC?
My answer would be that PIC is a large mainstream palm site and not a gathering place for geeks, even though many posters in the forums clearly belong to the 0.001% of power users, not your Joe Average. It's high time that big influential mainstream quality sites start paying attention to alternative ways of using their pda's.
Linux is not for geeks anymore.

The physical portal model of the PIC site allows easy expansion, that would be no problem. What is needed right now is an idea of what sort of info would have to be in version 1.0 and a routine to maintain it.
Am I going too fast, Ed?


In my courtroom...

I.M. Anonymous @ 2/18/2002 10:32:59 AM #
anyone who who would continue to insist upon their innocence (and pay for TV commercials to push their view) would be dealt the harshest possible sentence in their case. This "settlement" phase needs to end, and the courts need to get on to real punishment.

Microsoft's entire business model has been ripping off the good ideas of others, and coming up with the latest scam to force their own weaker copies of it upon the masses.

RE: In my courtroom...
I.M. Anonymous @ 2/18/2002 11:05:05 AM #
And that's why you are not a judge and just a nobody.

Thanks for nothing Palm

Kingfoo @ 2/18/2002 11:41:16 AM #
With Palm's current support for non-windows Operating Systems, Palm Desktop for the Mac is still beta, and conduits have to be developed for both systems seperatley, and absolutley no linux support (I understand that palm spent a lot of money on HotSync, but the least they could do is throw out a closed library that programmers can link to) it's hard to feel sorry for Palm when MS makes things difficult with them. It's a sad fact, that if you only use the Palm, with software produced by Palm, you're better off running Windows. In my mind, they are helping Microsoft keep it's PC monopoly.

RE: Thanks for nothing Palm
bsquare @ 2/18/2002 12:08:22 PM #

I agree 100% with that. I was planning on going back to the Mac, and after taking an inventory of the applications that I use on my PC (Office, IE, etc) everything was pretty much ready for OSX, except for one major thing, Palm Connectivity. And I'm not talking about just a basic hot-sync. I'm talking all the fixin's, AvantGo, PhotoSuite, FireViewer, Documents2Go. All not ready for OSX. (Or even OS9 for that matter) So I built a new PC and will stick with Win2k for a while longer. Thanks for nothing, PalmSource.

RE: Thanks for nothing Palm
peter167 @ 2/18/2002 12:25:39 PM #
You have two bottles and one lid.

The two bottle are Windows and Other OS (Mac or Linux) and the lid is the R&D money.

Which bottle will be likely be covered by the lid? That's why the DOJ should break up Microsoft into multiple companies, just like what AT&T (The Bells).

The DOJ should not just bow to MS. It is really a shame. It is even more shameful than signing the MSA with the ciagarettes companies. The ciagrettes companies have to pay $240 billion for 10 years. Unless M$ agreed to pay this much money, no deal should be signed unless there are anonymous relationship between DOJ and M$.

RE: Thanks for nothing Palm
Kingfoo @ 2/18/2002 12:46:53 PM #
I do not think it is unreasonable to expect Palm to try to make the contents of the two jars similar enough to work fine. And besides, my point was that it's hypocritical to whine about how Microsoft is being unfair while encouraging their customers to use Windows (or discouraging customers from using something else). As for linux support, they have been outright difficult, by forcing those willing to spend the time to make the palm work to figure out something that palm could easily help with (look at their undocumented changes to USB support, effectivley breaking all linux Palm support for 10 months). Why should a conduit developer have to write two seperate conduits for Mac and Windows. How would using a common API for all Hotsync conduits cost Palm more R&D money?

Bottles & lids...
I.M. Anonymous @ 2/18/2002 1:40:40 PM #
To use the bottle/lid analogy, if only Palm would tell us the size of the lid, then we could make our own. Or even better, use standard sized bottles (XML, SyncML) then we would have no problem at all... (well, at least fewer problems) :)

RE: Thanks for nothing Palm
jjsoh @ 2/19/2002 1:59:49 AM #
> AvantGo, PhotoSuite, FireViewer, Documents2Go. All
> not ready for OSX. (Or even OS9 for that matter) So
> I built a new PC and will stick with Win2k for a
> while longer. Thanks for nothing, PalmSource."

I don't see how this is the fault of PalmSource. I use Documents2Go, and last I recall you must install software from their site ( to use the syncing software properly, not Palm. I just visited their site and they do in fact have a download for Mac (but no Linux). I don't know about the others, but I'm sure this is the case for most (at least I know it is for MGI Photosuite).

At least we have options, unlike the PPC where you will only be able to connect to Windows, and nothing else. (That is, unless there is a conduit that I'm unaware of which allows PPC's to be able to sync with Mac OS or Linux.)


Microsoft & DOJ pseudosettlement

LeanderNB @ 2/18/2002 1:43:10 PM #
When is the DOJ going to realize what Microsoft is trying to do to our in take over the whole economic shebang. I really have no great desire to live in the United Gates of America.

Palm should be ashamed

I.M. Anonymous @ 2/18/2002 3:13:25 PM #
Palm's reaction to the Microsoft/DOJ settlement is typical and expected, and nothing new in business: they are simply trying to use the government to get rid of a competitor. Netscape tried to do the same thing to Microsoft.

What Palm should do instead of unfairly trying to get the government to restrain their competition, is to actually innovate and produce a superior product.

Shame on Palm. And shame on the government for becoming the tool of companies who have no other way to fight their competition than unfarily.

Microsoft should be ashamed
I.M. Anonymous @ 2/18/2002 3:23:18 PM #
Palm, PalmSource, etc. can't build a better product as long as Microsoft has the ability and the will to deliberately change Windows to break Palm's applications. And that is exactly what Bill Gates told his engineers to do. There's a smoking gun in the form of an email from him to prove it, despite Crooked Bill knowing that's illegal.

The whole point of this is that it is Microsoft who isn't willing or able to fairly compete and make a better handheld. It has to use its desktop monopoly to cheat. If PPC is so much better, why does Microsoft has to violate US law to help it succeed?

Microsoft is run by crooks and liars who are scrabbling for all the money and power they can get and using any dirty, underhanded, illegal trick they can think of.

RE: Palm should be ashamed
I.M. Anonymous @ 2/18/2002 9:16:17 PM #
You're very nearsighted and clueless-- Microsoft is the one acting unfairly, driving competition (small and large) into the ground. They regularly screw you, the customer, and the developer, and the competition.. everyone, and you chose to ignore it, preferring to live in blissfull ignorance. Until that day when MS has finally won, and then you get to see how much worse it can really get..

MS is *breaking the law*, every hour of every day, and you blame Palm?

Wake up.

Hey! Your Microsoft dollars hard at work!
I.M. Anonymous @ 2/18/2002 11:02:16 PM #
Did you know that MSFT actually PAYS EMPLOYEES to skim newsgroups and chat boards planting Pro-Microsoft propaganda?

It's a pitty they can't find /literate/ and /intelligent/ employees to do so.

But then, what intelligent employee would work for a company that treats it's employees like that?

Ah well. Maybe they can find some contractors.

RE: Palm should be ashamed
I.M. Anonymous @ 2/19/2002 11:47:34 AM #
The sad point is - MS is indeed able to hire extremely well educated and smart staff - opposite to Palm...

Ever visited a MS press conference?

I did. The MS employees are excluseviley and irrestistable charmy as BB in her best times. And helpfull like Alber Schweitzer.

Thats also fact - not fiction.

If you want to compete - you have to know (The Art of War) your enemy well, and not dream along...


RE: Palm should be ashamed
I.M. Anonymous @ 2/19/2002 1:44:51 PM #
> Ever visited a MS press conference?

I have visited various MS "events". Those people are eloquent SALESPEOPLE with good technical backgrounds. Your so called, "extremely well educated and smart staff" are experts at taking technology from other individuals and companies, remanufacturing it, and bundling or selling it under the Microsoft brand name.

The beginning of the end....

I.M. Anonymous @ 2/19/2002 3:23:42 AM #
Like a lumbering giant that has lost all sense of direction, Microsft has lost focus and is increasingly headed downhill. Pity.

Suposed Microsoft Monopoly

I.M. Anonymous @ 2/19/2002 11:01:42 AM #
Although many would like to believe this, it is simply not true. I challenge each one of you to thumb through a copy of Mircowarehouse magazine next time it dons your mailbox (a foreign concept to you all I am sure). I think that you would find that over 90% of the products are not produced by Microsoft.

It is true that WIndows dominates the desktop but, what the heck, would you rather return to the 1980's where there were "HUGE" compatability problems and no standard or common direction. Windows may not be perfect, but I doubt that any other OS is or would be perfect. Bill Gates raised the bar and has set a standard which has, IMNSHO, made life a bit easier on all of us. Now, this may be cliche', but BG has always contended that the demise of MS is one garage away.

The fact is that Microsoft is successful because they build things better, cheaper and faster. It is a clasic economics textbook example and the rest of the world wants to penalize that success. One of the fortunes of war is that some people may not be able to compete and fold up shop. Cest La Vie

I for one have no desire to return to the 1980's with a lack of direction where the entire industry was plagued by incompatabilty, high cost and archiac software. Looking back, I wonder what the computer world would be like today if Steve Jobs and Apple had made the decision to allow 3rd parties to manufacture Apple and MAC clones. Maybe we would not be having this discussion today. But, we shouldnt "penalize" Apple for past bad decisions now should we.

Perhaps we should give Bill Gates absolute power in this nation. Then maybe America would become a Monopoly and the rest of the world would try and be like us. LMAO

Microsoft facts - not fiction:
I.M. Anonymous @ 2/19/2002 11:44:45 AM #
Lets look at the facts - not fiction:

From Palm's suit against MS.

Microsoft has the ability and incentive to take
additional actions to forestall competition in the
handheld industry. Palm's products -- both the
software products it manufactures as an independent
software vendor ("ISV") and the hardware products it
manufactures as an independent hardware vendor ("IHV")
-- must be compatible with PCs and the software that
runs on them. Microsoft has a unique position as the
PC OS monopolist and also the dominant vendor of
related software products such as the Internet
Explorer browser, the Office productivity suite, the
Outlook e-mail and calendaring program, the Exchange
server software and the Visual Studio developer tools.
Palm's ability to offer innovative handheld solutions
to consumers is, in significant part, reliant on full
and timely interoperability with Microsoft's software
products. Absent compatibility, consumers will be
unable to obtain a fully functional handheld running
anything other than Microsoft software.

As noted above, Microsoft is already taking actions to
forestall competition in the mobile computing
industry. In particular:

1. Microsoft has refused Palm access to information
and software interfaces necessary to enable Palm to
make its products interoperable with certain Microsoft
products and technologies, including some elements of
Microsoft's .NET software;

2. Microsoft has prevented Palm from working with
Microsoft's software development tools (Microsoft
Visual Studio);

3. Microsoft has refused to make Microsoft Internet
Explorer operate on Palm OS handhelds; and

4. In exchange for addressing some of these issues,
Microsoft has attempted to coerce Palm into deploying
Microsoft .NET software on Palm handhelds under terms
that would put the Palm OS business at a prohibitive

Microsoft has also already exhibited its intent to
foreclose companies such as Palm by breaking
interoperability with its products. Bill Gates himself
directed his staff to alter Microsoft products to
ensure that Microsoft's "PDA will connect to Office in
a better way than other PDAs even if that means
changing how we do flexible schema in Outlook and how
we tie some of our audio and video advanced work to
only run on our PDAs." (Remedy Exhibit GX1 attached to
this submission). As the DOJ argued previously:

... on July 11, 1999, less than thirty days after the
conclusion of the trial in this action, Bill Gates
wrote an e-mail directing that Microsoft redesign its
software in order to harm competitors. This time, the
products in question were the Personal Digital
Appliances that Microsoft heralded at trial as one of
the products that might someday undo its monopoly.

Plaintiffs' Memorandum In Support Of Proposed Final
Judgment, filed April 28, 2000 (corrected as of May 2,
2000) (citing Remedy Exhibit GX1). Microsoft's
anticompetitive incentive is obvious. Its
anticompetitive conduct will enable it to monopolize
the emerging handheld industry and, at the same time,
eliminate the threat handhelds pose to its PC OS

As delineated more fully below, it is Palm's belief
that the RPFJ, if adopted, would fail to protect
competition in the handheld industry for at least the
following reasons:

1. It does not appear even to attempt to address
handheld industry competition;

2. It enables Microsoft to withhold interface
information that is critical to the competitiveness of
Microsoft's rivals such as Palm;(4)

3. It enables Microsoft to continue to disadvantage
ISVs and IHVs that work with companies other than
Microsoft, especially given the network effects that
pervade this industry;

4. It fails to ensure that Microsoft will not use
distributed Internet-based (.NET) applications to
eradicate the competitive threat of non-Microsoft

5. It either does not define or improperly defines key
terms of the RPFJ, thereby enabling Microsoft to
circumvent the RPFJ's intended boundaries;

6. It enables Microsoft to commingle or
technologically bundle its OS with other dominant
Microsoft software;

7. It enables Microsoft to use anticompetitive pricing
tactics such as bundled pricing;

8. It fails to provide OEMs with the freedom to
promote software products competing with Microsoft's

9. The enforcement mechanisms of the RPFJ are too weak
to ensure Microsoft's compliance; and

10. It contains other deficiencies described below.

If the above RPFJ shortcomings are not addressed,
Microsoft will be able to dictate customer decisions
regarding computing models and standard technologies
for the indefinite future, rather than having those
decisions made by consumers on the competitive merits.
Competition, and the innovative solutions that emerge
from that competition, will suffer. Any settlement
with Microsoft must address these issues now, because,
as the industry has learned from the Internet browser
war, competition can be lost in the blink of an eye.

RE: Suposed Microsoft Monopoly
I.M. Anonymous @ 2/19/2002 6:51:29 PM #
It's funny. the Microsoft apologists simply confine themselves to rehashing the same old stories about Bill making our lives easier without making any attempts to address the topical issue.

Would the first poster on "Suposed Microsoft Monopoly" care to respond to the facts raised above?

Someone had earlier asked the question: "Is Bill an idiot or a crook?"

Just reading his mail (tendered as exhibit by Palm) really leaves me scratching my head in wonder. Didn't he realise he was breaking the laws of this country thro comments like that?

RE: Suposed Microsoft Monopoly
rigter @ 2/20/2002 3:15:34 AM #
To the first poster of this particular thread:

Please register yourself. Don't be afraid of the world, it's beautiful out here. No need to hide.

While it is probably true that in this leaflet you're mentioning the majority of products is not made by Microsoft, I am prepared to state that more than 90% of those products had to be made the way they are made because of Microsoft. And I guarantee I have never ever seen that booklet, there's an ocean between us ;-)

As mentioned in one of the other posts in this thread:
Microsoft dominates the desktop OS market and has used this monopoly to push out rivals in other areas.
Microsoft dominates the Office market. Microsoft has used its monopoly very effectively to kill off Netscape's browser after ignoring Internet first.
Microsoft has, in the past, changed perfectly working code to ensure that only Microsoft products would work together. That is one reason why different generations of Microsoft products often fail to work together or perform poorly at best. Bill has ordered to do it again.

Microsoft has even managed to change perfectly working HARDWARE by changing the rules. Ever heard of a WinModem? Hardware manufacturers follow Bill because they know there is no other option for them. Even though technically, it is absolute nonsense to remove fast cheap hardware from a modem and build it into the OS.

Microsoft is able to dictate other companies how to build their products.
If the product comes too close to a Microsoft product, it will get stabbed in the back. Ask Netscape.
Or simply taken over. Visio is now Microsoft. Or kept secret. Does any non Microsoft mail client know how to read mail from a hotmail account?

The point is: it doesn't matter if you're making hardware or software, Microsoft will use its monopoly to tell you what to do and how to do it. Because if you don't, the world's dominant OS won't work with your product, even if Microsoft has to change the code for it.


The real solution....

LarryGarfield @ 2/19/2002 12:07:08 PM #
"However, because Microsoft has a monopoly, it is in a very odd situation. While it can continue to have a desktop monopoly, it can't use that to to gain monopolies in other areas, like handheld computers."

Anyone who has ever studied history knows that in the long run such "restrictions" are useless wastes of time and money. The only solution to keep a monopoly from abusing its monopoly power is to break it up so that it's no longer a monopoly. Any economist will tell you why monopolies are bad for consumers AND businesses. The US government tried for decades to "regulate" the AT&T monopoly, before finally giving up and breaking them up in the 1980s. The 18 months after the breakup were the period of the most innovation in the entire history of the telecomm industry.

Slice and dice may sound nasty, but in the long run It is the most effective solution to keep the industry strong, competitive, fair, productive, and profitable.

This post is ROT26 encrypted. Reading it is a violation of the DMCA

May switch to Pocket PC

I.M. Anonymous @ 2/20/2002 10:44:54 AM #
After Intuit publicly joined the "get bill gates" crowd a couple of years ago, I switched from quicken (and -many- years data & user experience) to MS money. No regrets.

I was early to adopt Palm. Still call it "Pilot" started back when it first came out. Only one with with two mem configs.... was it 128 & 256KB???!!!

I've paid and -registered- more apps than I can use, and my overflowing iiix is due for an upgrade.

I have been holding out for the new m515, but since Palm corporate felt compelled to share -their- view of monopoly law with us I have ben shopping.

The 64MB Ipaq sems prety cool, with voice recorder, media playback. May BIGGEST concern (being a grafitti wiz) was leaving behind familiar data entry, but a feature called "block recognition" on the pocketpc platfrom seems to do a BETTER job at recognition than my old 3x.

QUESTION: It is pretty easy to see replacements on the Pocketpc for Docs to go, fireviewer, contacts, calendar, tasks, etc. I am wondering about:

1. Outliner apps similar to brainforest
2. Easy TVM calcs like Loan Pro
3. Security like OnlyMe
4. Language & translation apps.
5. Tinybyte relational database apps
6. MSMoney caompatible apps like the ultrasoft product.
7. US City &* County map apps.

I have supported these Palm developers (and others) in the past. Are their apps, or comparable apps available for the pocketpc product?

(Yes, I know the Ipaq is HUGE compared to the m515, but it does take SD card, it is lightweight and fits in the hand. Anyone know of a SMALLER pocketpc device?)

(I don't wish to debate the microsoft case, but if you are -interested- in my opinion and can't guess it, I will just say I don't think they should have been in court in the first place. My only affiliation with Microsoft is that I often prefer and use their products, and I have actually been to Redmond Washington - but not on the MS campus.)

RE: May switch to Pocket PC
I.M. Anonymous @ 2/20/2002 11:29:19 AM #
You be much better off posting this on a Pocket PC site where there might be some people who know the answers to your questions. Posting it here is only going to get you flamed.

RE: May switch to Pocket PC
I.M. Anonymous @ 2/20/2002 1:02:41 PM #
I would have thought that BOTH pocketpc oriented and palm oriented discussion groups would include a few folks who were familiar with BOTH.

No PocketPC to palm converts here?

Very well, perhaps the happy converts -are- on the PocketPC forum.

(BTW: THAT would be what I would consider to be a "flame provoking" remark - consider it retracted. My original post may have been controversial, counter to the "conventional wisdom" on this board, or even an unpopular position. However, I did try to make the original post without such "baiting" of the reader.)

I won't be posting any more responses here, but if anyone wants to tell me why I'll be disappointed if I don't get an m515...well, I've stated my concerns.

Rich, Poor, and the Law

PIC mobile user @ 3/18/2002 8:58:40 PM #
A little history lesson for you:

Back in the "Gilded Age" many people believed that the reason people were poor were so was that they were lazy, no good, drunken, et al. This idea was labeled Social Darwinism. The myth that in America hard work would be the path to a better future was just that, a myth. All of the "Robber Barons" of this time, with the exception of Andrew Carnegie came from comfortable families. Andrew Carnegie was well educated before he emigrated to the U.S.
End of history lesson.

How does this apply today? Most people did not have Bill Gate's moderately well-off parents, and the system is still tilted. This is to be expected in a Capitalist system, as the "Rich" have more time and access to new ideas and technology.

I'm going to suprise a few people, I'm not a "Liberal" or a "Conservative." I'm one of the muddy middle who wants a few basic things:

1) I want copyright returned to it's exact historical protection time. If those limits were in effect, you would have much better software. This would apply to music and movies too. Copyright, if I remember properly applied for 5 years. Wow, wouldn't that mean Win95 would be public domain right now? It would definitely mean all the original Beatles albums, as an example, would be public domain.

2) Patent should revert to their original state of 10 years (little fuzzy on this number). It would help big business too, less "Submarine Patents" would work.

These two changes would alter the business landscape immensely, and all while returning to traditional limits. No siree, nothing liberal about that, it's almost shockingly conservative. Too bad MS, IBM, AOL Time-Warner, and pretty much any business with a patent or copyright would try to label it liberal, or communistic. Software & media companies in particular would go beserk. Just my two cents.

RE: Rich, Poor, and the Law
I.M. Anonymous @ 3/18/2002 9:21:16 PM #
Lots of people started with nothing and built their fortunes through hard work, smarts, and risk-taking. The Lord helps those that help themselves. Whether you succeed or fail in life, you have nobody to blame but yourself.



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