Comments on: Handspring Pulling Out of Japan?
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RE: $160 for a prism?
RE: $160 for a prism?
Sad...
RE: Sad...
RE: Sad...
The Treo's a bigger innovation than anything they've done to date.
RE: Sad...
RE: Sad...
you cannot sell Visors in Sonyland, japanese like high quality devices.
RE: Sad...
RE: Sad...
*******************************************************
I think there's a very useful Massaging (not messaging) Springboard Module, that was really useful. and I hear that they are going to release the abforce Springboard Module soon too, isn't that cool, that's so the next generation of computer device. the consumer electronics device :)
RE: Sad...
By the way, there are a lot of tax incentives for "not showing a profit" for the first several years of any business. Much of what would normally be "Profit" is reinvested into the company and used to make aquisitions. Handspring is doing fine financially, I am sure. And they still put out a good product in my opinion.
Doug
RE: Sad...
As if an Anonymous poster would even know who I am!
No, I am not a PPC convert. I currently use a Clie T615c. And how exactly am I "trashing" PalmOS devices? What positive spin could anyone possibly place on this story? Handspring is leaving the Japanese market because its products are not selling. Sorry, but I don't see an upside. Oops! There I go again.
RE: Sad...
Japanese Cell Phones too good.
If you look at the Sony Palm OS prototype they were showing at PalmSource it looks like a cell phone with a camera built-in. I think such models are already available in Japan with the DOMOCO (sp) WEB information delivery service.
Sharp still sells lots of Zaurii in Japan. I wish they had not virtually abandoned the business here.
It is Treo in US and Europe or onto the scrape heap of history for Handspring now.
RE: Japanese Cell Phones too good.
RE: Japanese Cell Phones too good.
http://www.sharp-usa.com/products/ModelLanding/0,1058,699,00.html
j888
RE: Japanese Cell Phones too good.
O.K., I'm not exactly sure how that relates to this story, but that Zaurus comes with: 1) no real third party software (and decent but little developer support when compared to Palm or even PPC); 2) a non-pocketable form factor; 3) a processor that isn't exactly known for being battery friendly (although the OS may help some in that area).
All-in-all, I for one think the Zaurus has got a maximum 2-year international shelf life. It just isn't going to appeal to nearly a wide enough audience outside of Japan.
RE: Japanese Cell Phones too good.
The only way to buy one is to register as a developer. Still a nice linux device, but i'll stick to my n770c for now.
japanese cell phones are too good
one point my japanese friend made is that, when they ride the subway, the best is one handed operation (of a cell phone).. its annoying for them to have to put down their bag or let go of the handle to use the palm.
anyways, their cell phones do the same things palms do.. in color... wireless.. and higher res!
GSM
--------------
If at first you don't succeed, then skydiving definately isn't for you.
RE: GSM
RE: GSM
RE: GSM
--------------
If at first you don't succeed, then skydiving definitely isn't for you.
''Regrets, I've had a few......''
What a shame. This self-imposed though. They decided that PDA profit margins were not good enough for them. So they got greedy and decided to go wireless only. That was the first mistake. The second mistake was letting the public find out about their decision.
RE:
RE: ''Regrets, I've had a few......''
Did we say "pull the Visor?"
What me meant was "we're all the wiser".
sheesh.
Japanese Products are not necessarily better!!!
In Japan's local market, nothing is important other than whether it is from a Japan manufacturer. Not even BMWs sell well over there because the Japanese are really ethnic-centric (???). They won't buy products other than that made in Japan. No foreign companies have success over there because of how ethnic-centric they are.
Furthermore, the Japanese products are not high quality, indeed. But at least they pretend to be high quality. The employees in the Japanese firm are very ethnic-centric and protect their firm, even after layoffed (unlike U.S.) People will know some defects in some products because some insiders provide some info. If no one tells you so, you could never know.
For example, the number one (or two) dairy product in Japan hides the disgusting manufacturing process for years. The employees drink milk for free, of course, and the left-over (of course it is the milk in this case) will be poured back into the container so that it will be used for products later on.
Another example. Mitsubishi covered up the defects in their cars for years, until DaimlerChrysler has bought a stake in it. And who knows why these covered-up reports came out after Mitsu is being bought.
So once again, not because Japanese product are better so that they sell well in Japan. The Japanese will probably ditch MS's products in the future and decide to switch to Linux. Yes, Linux is antoher company but at least one Japanese firm can license it and put it under its brand name.
Lie is the future.
RE: Japanese Products are not necessarily better!!!
I've lived several years in Japan, and let me tell you that japanese products (not only electronics) are the best, not kidding. Foreign companies dont succeed there becouse they simply can't keep up with their high standards and obsession with quality. And most of the products there are "Made in Japan" the ones made in Malaysia, China, Singapore, Korea, Mexico are for us :(
..and no, i'm not japanese.
RE: Japanese Products are not necessarily better!!!
This is an usual statment for someone who love Japanese products (e.g. Sony) How could you prove that the Japanese products are the best? Only you, one of the embracers, will assume that.
If Japanese products are the best, why, do the two examples I gave out show that they aren't? IMHO, they are really big companies, and yet behave like this. Or are you trying to prove me I am lying for the two examples? I bet everyone (especially the one who can read Chinese) knows that, or at least someone they know knows that.
******************
Lie is the future.
RE: Japanese Products are not necessarily better!!!
Haha....laughing my ass off....Linux is another company......license it.....
From such an obviously highly educated poster with absolutely no glaring anti-Japanese bias (a trait which can be common among us Chinese) you know this whole testimony has to be dead on.....
Or maybe it's really just that 160x160 screens make Asian fonts look like unreadable crap, and a higher resolution is truly necessary in Japan, as speculated in the article. That could be it too. And it's not like American companies haven't been caught hiding defects, or that Japanese cars WERE higher quality in the 80's than American cars........
"Lie is the future."
Huh?
RE: Japanese Products are not necessarily better!!!
Mike, you still haven't explained my two examples yet, given the fact that it seems you does not belive Japanese has a tendency to hide its products' defects. I watched Dragonball a long time ago (8 years or so), perhaps just like you. I am a Chinese as well, but that should not have an impact on the reality itself.
Hopefully, you could be more open-minded. Not to perceive what someone tells you. My two examples are true with no facts or any intentional modifications in them. They are big companies as well.
P.S. Yes, U.S. has also so many absurd things, just like the collapse of Enron, if you are anti-U.S.
******************
Lie is the future.
RE: Japanese Products are not necessarily better!!!
????
hey Peter167 Pan, think before you embarass yourself like this. stay cool.
duh!
RE: Japanese Products are not necessarily better!!!
Japan's attitude, at times, smells suspiciously familiar to "Deutschland über alles".
RE: Japanese Products are not necessarily better!!!
******************
Lie is the future.
RE: Japanese Products are not necessarily better!!!
Anyway, that still has not proved your point Mike - what can be explained to those two examples?
******************
Lie is the future.
RE: Japanese Products are not necessarily better!!!
Maybe because there are too many companies for people to license their OS (e.g. Palm, Symbian), I have mixed up my mind with Linux.
But my mind definitely tells me that the two examples I stated are 100% right. No doubt about that.
******************
Lie is the future.
RE: Japanese Products are not necessarily better!!!
Yes, you are right. In addition to that, Japan intentionally has let its yen to be weak so that their exports can be much more competitive than any others.
******************
Lie is the future.
RE: Japanese Products are not necessarily better!!!
2) of course Japanese products are not necessarily better, christ. But I must say that their consumers electronics products are on the top of the world.
3) Enron ... I better don't comment on this, otherwise Mr Dick might come to palminfocenter :)
4) hehe what's wrong with racist !? I really don't see the problem, I think everyone got their freedom to dislike things don't they ?
5) Which company doesn't hide their products defects, for christ sake Enron has been hiding their problems till like they file for bankruptcy.
6) I am Chinese too, and guess what I've been watching dragonball for more than 15 years already. Actually I stopped watching it for about 5-7 years, until I came to the US I switched on the TV and saw the Dragonball that was played 15 years ago in Hong Kong, O well it's always nice to look back in your childhood.
7) Hopefully you can be more open minded. Not to perceive what you think is true, be more subjective, look at the big picture.
Anyways my roommates attitude (they are not Japanese, Chinese, they are Americans) towards FORD is "What ?? I'll never buy a Ford." And for some odd reasons they all like to look at Nissan, Toyota, BMW and Benz (LoL like they can really afford it).
RE: Japanese Products are not necessarily better!!!
hmm.. actually I think it has more to do with FORD is famous for making crappy cars, do you really believe those "Build FORd Tough" commercial on TV ??
Japanese Products are the worse!!!
I know you are embarrassed by the fact that you are 110% wrong on the Linux/Company thing, but don't try to make excuses. It is ok to not know something, no one knows everything on this earth, just don't pretend that you knew it. I hate those "I knew it" attitude.
"But my mind definitely tells me that the two examples I stated are 100% right. No doubt about that."
KAKA, your subject "Japanese Products are not necessarily better" is so easy to proof correct that it's not even funny. Let's look at it this way "*COUNTRY* Products are not necessarily better", this actually applies to virtually every country. If and only if you change your title to "Japanese Products are the worse" then this subject will be more challenging to be proved right.
RE: Swiss products are the best
RE: Japanese Products are not necessarily better!!!
All companies hide their product defects, this is nothing unique to the Japanese. I don't doubt your two examples. It's just that they don't prove much either. Does anyone here doubt that I couldn't find examples of companies from any country hiding defects in products? Palm still won't admit that their USB cradles are frying things last I checked (though this could have changed since last I heard). And in my completely subjective point of view, most Japanese consumer electronics are pretty high quality. Same goes for their cars. Off hand, I can't think of an example of a really low quality Japanese product.
There's those defects you named, but do you feel that Japanese products have a higher percentage of those defects than other country's products? Because if that's what you're trying to say then that might be interesting, but that'd be a pretty hard claim to backup too I think. I don't feel that Japanese products are "necessarily better", but as a whole, they do tend to be on average better.
I'll be the first to agree with you that as a people, the Japanese tend to be very racist (ethno-centric). I'll also be the first to agree that they do seem to share a number of similarities with their Deutsch allies from that last war. I'm not anti-US, and I'll even say that maybe I am anti-Japanese to a certain extent, but even so, I do prefer to put my feelings for the people aside and try and look at them objectively when I cast judgements upon them.
It's pretty clear to me from your post that you have a pretty strong anti-Japanese bias, and some of those claims you make are pretty off base I think. There's zero chance that the Japanese will be switching all to Linux in the near future (as much as the Open Source Movement might like that) just because they dislike American companies (Microsoft). They're ethno-centric, but not THAT ethno-centric. You present two examples of Japanese companies hiding their defects when I could just easily present cases of the same in any country. At the Boston Market in America my friend used to work at, the employees would play hockey with the chickens in the backroom before cooking them and serving them to guests. Those damn American companies.
But all this has already been said, and much more succintly by that anonymous dude a few posts back with the numbered list. But since you directly addressed me I felt it'd only be polite if I responded.
RE: Japanese Products are not necessarily better!!!
I have to agree. A good friend of mine spent a few months on business in Japan a couple years ago. No one would sit next to him on the bus. If he sat down next to someone, they would get up and move somewhere else, even if it meant standing.
Japan is a volcanic island and there are small hotsprings all over the place. Many of these are open as public baths. Before the Nagano Olympics, people had to go around and order all of them to take their "No Foreigners Allowed" signs down.
There are millions of people of Korean descent who have been living in Japan for generations. They don't have Japanese citizenship, despite being born in the country. The Japanese considered them Koreans and expel them whenever the economy goes bad and "real" Japanese people want to crappy jobs the "Koreans" normally do.
They may make good electronics but they are not nice people.
RE: Japanese Products are not necessarily better!!!
where you from?
You must be kidding, here in America racial discrimination is much more refined and sofisticated, blacks, hispanics, Indians.. at least japanese are not hypocrats. Family values are almost non existent here.
RE: Japanese Products are not necessarily better!!!
Quality and presentation are very important to the Japanese and many of their products are superior than those made in the US or Europe. Look how well American-made Hondas (in Ohio), and Toyotas (in Kentucky) are doing in the US and in Japan.
General Motors and other US auto companies had a hard time selling their cars in Japan because they did not move the steering wheel to the right-side until just recently. Off couse this would hamper sales.
Size if very important in Japan since the country is so crowded. Therefore, with small GSM cell phones offering many PDA features, the Visor was always at a disadvantage.
With proper localization and quality control, the Japanese will buy your product.
Cheers,
John
RE: Japanese Products are not necessarily better!!!
..the same applies in America with Mexicans and their crappy jobs.
RE: Japanese Products are not necessarily better!!!
So its OK to be a racist ***hole as long as you are open about it?
At least African-Americans, Native Americans, etc. are allowed to be U.S. citizens. Like I said, the Koreans who were born in Japan aren't and the Japanese government deports them to Korea whenever it feels like it, even though many of these people have never even been to Korea before. If it doesn't deport them, the Japanese still treat them like dirt.
As for the Mexicans someone brought up, if you are born in America, even to illegal aliens, you are an American citizen and can't be deported. If you are of Korean decent and your entire family back to your grandparents were born in Japan, you aren't a Japanese citizen.
I'm not saying all Americans are perfect. But most Americans are aware that racism is wrong. Racism is government policy in Japan. It reminds me of the U.S. 50 years ago. But we've mostly moved past that and the Japanese haven't.
You may think you live in a racist country but it doesn't compare to Japan. Like I said, in the 3 months my friend was in Japan, not a single person was willing to sit next to him on the bus and he had to ride it twice a day.
RE: Japanese Products are not necessarily better!!!
Not because you haven't heard recalls from the media does not mean that there are no MAJOR recalls for their cars in the states.
Do a search on the above link & you will see how many recalls are there for you Camrys or Civics, if you still "believe" it is top notch. Did you know that there is a sludge problem around for Toyota engines (across all the 2.4L I4 and 3.0 V6) that Toyota "somehow" wants its 3000+ plus owners to pair for the repair for the engine?
I don't know how well the European cars sell in Japan, unless you give us a definite market share over there. Or how well the foreign companies over there.
******************
Lie is the future.
RE: Japanese Products are not necessarily better!!!
I'm Korean, and I can tell you the same applies for Korea. In fact, Koreans are equally racist. I have lived there for 17 years and go back every year. So what's your point? That you hate the Japanese?
When playing the racism card, be sure your examples aren't so ignorant. Japan's ethnocentrism has little to do with the Handspring's pulling out, and more to do with competition. If Handspring puts out a similar product to the clie (high-res, jog dial, etc.) and priced competitively, then they would have a chance. but keep in mind that they're competing with Sony--a brand that does well outside of Japan. I read somewhere that Sony is the #1 brand in the U.S. (poll).
And keep in mind that, in this "global economy," there are few examples of a a purely domestic product. Japanese cars (along with electronics) have U.S. and European parts. And simply because a label says "Made in xxx" doesn't mean that it is a wholelly domestic product.
Why is it okay to slam the Japanese for wanting to buy only Japanese products when the U.S. feels the same way? Remember the "Buy American" campaign back in the 80's?
RE: Japanese Products are not necessarily better!!!
> Japan, not a single person was willing to sit
> next to him on the bus and he had to ride it
> twice a day.
Are you sure it's the Japanese or maybe your friend smells. You should see Roppongi where all these pretty Japanese girls go gaga over over all these foreigners (black and/or white). No racism there.
Going back to the topic. I *am* and Japan and believe it or not, Japanese products really *are* better.
RE: Japanese Products are not necessarily better!!!
I never stated HS's Visors are better than Sony's Clies, and I don't know why people misintrepret that.
I don't know how this topic could lead to personal attacks on others. Yes, some Japanese products are better; again, some Germany products are better; some U.S. products are better. But to attack other people like smell or to promote racism is no good.
******************
Lie is the future.
RE: Japanese Products are not necessarily better!!!
RE: Japanese Products are not necessarily better!!!
Maybe because this a palminfocenter, and people expect other people to be having discussion about PalmOS Based products.
"I don't know how this topic could lead to personal attacks on others. But to attack other people like smell or to promote racism is no good."
LoL, you talks about other ppl personal attacks and racism, maybe you should look into a mirror sometimes and think, "Am I racist?" I am not saying it's wrong to be racist, Jesus is it so wrong to not like some people ?? Is it so wrong that we need to have Black Miss American every year ??
"Yes, some Japanese products are better; again, some Germany products are better; some U.S. products are better."
hehe this sentence totally defeated the whole purpose of your arguments. Isn't that common knowledge that some countries certain product is always better than some other countries ?? No one said that Japanese makes everything better in the first place, but nonono, I am peter I have to start a discussion about japanese products are not necessary the best. Why ? Maybe because you ar racist towards Japanese, who knows.
RE: Japanese Products are not necessarily better!!!
I am a Japanese and use a m505 US version. So I am the one who does not necessarily love Japanese products.
However, I believe there are two reasons Japanes people tend to hold on to Japanse products:
1) They are obsessed by the quality. An example: sports shirts sold in Europe have lower quality to the eyes of Japanese. This has nothing to with the absolute quality. Japanese criteria is simply severe.
2) Foreign companies tend to bring their own standard without respecting the standards or practices in Japan. A US game company landed Japan but disregarded the convention in Japanese game distribution. The result: loss in confidence.
Foreign companies which have considered the criteria of Japanese people and respected the Japanese convention have been enjoying success. One of the good examples is IBM producing extra light models for their portable computer range.
I don't get it
I don't get it. Handspring is/was the number two Palm OS handheld manufacturer in the world, outnumbered only by Palm itself. Selling millions.
How on earth is it possible that this is apparently not enough? What is wrong with your business model if the number two spot is not enough to make money.
I understand that Sony can afford to burn cash to gain market share. I don't understand why all those beautiful Sony models simply aren't available outside Japan and the U.S. but that is another point.
HandEra sells less handhelds than Handspring, yet they survive and produce truly innovative pda's. But not in this country, of course.... again, another point.
I can understand why Handspring has to quit the japanese market, if the products they have simply do not sell. Free market for you there.
Most springboards are manufactured by others, not Handspring. The fact that these are selling less than expected/predicted shouldn't hurt Handspring that much.
I don't get it.
If the number two place is not enough to make a profit, that company should go down. Year after year investors throw more money in that company. Why?
Handspring shook the world with their first Visors. It should have been a financial success. What more could you ask for? If that is not good enough, then what is?
Come on, it didn't work.
This is not flame bait.
I really do not understand.
Cheers,
Jan
RE: I don't get it
RE: I don't get it
RE: I don't get it
But if the above poster is correct, this means that from now on it is not possible anymore to make a living from designing and building handheld computers. That is unless you have other products in other markets to finance this hobby of yours.
Kinda hard to believe, isn't it?
That would mean the end for all important players in the Palm OS market but Sony.
Who is this santa claus then who keeps giving money to companies that have never made any money and never will?
Cheers,
Jan
/*
As a computer, I find your faith in technology amusing.
*/
No one can compete with Sony with current products.
PS: While I love the Treo I am intrested in a dedicated PDA only and frankly no one makes them even close with Sony these days.
RE: No one can compete with Sony with current products.
RE: No one can compete with Sony with current products.
RE: No one can compete with Sony with current products.
RE: No one can compete with Sony with current products.
Talk about inferiority. It must be related to the size of your ....
I've owned a Palm since they first came out but once I bought my Clie there is no turning back.
So spare me the rubbish about a 160x160 display being superior. It's not. Been there. Done it. And not impressed.
RE: No one can compete with Sony with current products.
Quite frankly, by the numbers, that is flat out wrong. This is a thread about Handspring in Japan. If you want to post numbers about how Sony is outselling Handspring in Japan or how Sony's hi-res and other OS support is better for the Japanese language then fine. That isn't what the original posters were talking about, and I've had enough of listening to their how great Sony is talk in every news thread on this site, especially when it is completely off topic.
RE: No one can compete with Sony with current products.
OB
RE: No one can compete with Sony with current products.
> of their own, where they can talk to each other
> about how great they think Sony is.
>
Well, there are such sites in existance, like http://cliesource.com and http://clieworld.co.uk ... :)
RE: No one can compete with Sony with current products.
It's on target because the reason Handspring is getting killed in Japan is Sony is selling a better product at the same price. That's the whole point of my original post. It is the same reason I expect Sony to pass Handspring in sales during 2002 in the US. Palm will of course remain the leader for now due to the name and their willingness to continue to target the low end market as well as the high end market.
RE: No one can compete with Sony with current products.
Great review and tons of photos.
RE: No one can compete with Sony with current products.
RE: No one can compete with Sony with current products.
Oh please! That is not the reason behind your initial post. You have zero information to back up your claims, and claiming that Sony is "the PalmOS leader" is utterly false since Sony has a small fraction of the Palm OS market. You probably don't even know how Handspring's prices in Japan compare to Sony's.
Let me know when you have something more interesting to say than the T615 is the best PDA out there and that everyone else should be buying one.
RE: No one can compete with Sony with current products.
What I want to know is how you think the Handspring Prism or the Palm m505 are superior to the Sony T615...
RE: No one can compete with Sony with current products.
everyone has different needs, no handheld is the best for everyone. Some people want always on internet, go get i7xx series, some people like bright color high res screen in a small form factor, go get a T615, some people want a phone/PDA Combo, go get a Nokia Communicator (Treo?? what Treo). So if someone say "XXX PDA is the best everyone should go out and buy one" They must be retarded.
RE: No one can compete with Sony with current products.
RE: No one can compete with Sony with current products.
RE: No one can compete with Sony with current products.
Buttons on the other hand, yes on the T615 they suck. The m505 is much superior. But the jog dial on the T615 actually is useful so it is all plusses and minuses. The thing is the one part of the handheld you use most is the screen and man it makes a compelling case for the T615 at $379.
RE: No one can compete with Sony with current products.
But after seeing my friends 760 I seriously consitered upgrading. (just dont have the $$$)
Sony's products are all so far superior to any of the others in the market.
s320/360 best of the low end palms, the 760 best of any palm.
415 and 615 both very nice although hard to use for games because of the buttons. (if you dont play games no problem)very nice screen.
Sony is still new to palm os and as such still has a small market share 8-10%.
If they continue to produce as they have, they will soon rival Palm itself in sales.
yes they can
All the countries on this planet where you can actually get the full product line can be counted on the fingers of one hand, and still have enough fingers left to go bowling. Go figure.
Sony 625 great?
Yeah, sure.
Cheers,
Jan
/*
As a computer, I find your faith in technology amusing.
*/
treo
RE: treo
In the States, there are many protocols and coverage may vary. In Europe, GSM is pretty much the standard and coverage is excellent.
Market penetration is also different. In this country (the Netherlands) I believe there are more mobile phones than people over 18 years of age. Funny but true.
GPRS is an alien concept to many phone companies in the States. Over here in this small country - 16 million people - there are 3 phone companies who already offer GPRS services on top of GSM contracts. More coming. And the Japanese are preparing a move into Europe as well now that they have stuff working at home.
So GSM coverage is quite an achievement in the States. In Europe it means nothing, it's default. Handspring maybe thinks selling a GSM phone is quite something. In Europe people wonder why it is only GSM and not prepared for GPRS, because the competition is.
Look at the latest phones from nokia and motorola and they all have color screens, GPRS support, BlueT and often basic PIM functions too. Some even have a built in camera!
The design of the Treo is a sexy one. But is does nothing new. At least not in Europe.
Cheers,
Jan
/*
As a computer, I find your faith in technology amusing.
*/
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$160 for a prism?