Comments on: Sony Will Drop Proprietary Hi-Res API in OS 5 Handhelds

Current versions of the Palm OS only support 160 by 160 screens. Last year, when Sony wanted to release models with 320 by 320 screens, it was necessary for it to write its own application programming interface (API) to let developers write applications that could take advantage of the higher resolution screens.

PalmSource is close to finishing Palm OS 5, which does support larger screens but doesn't use the same API that Sony does. A Sony spokesperson has told Cnet that its OS 5 devices won't use its proprietary API; instead they will use the OS 5 one.

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WTF!!!

I.M. Anonymous @ 5/21/2002 4:15:27 PM #
I hate Sony!! I can't believe they are coming out with a new device!!!!! I just got my NR70 and now it's completely obsolete!!!!

btw, I am just joking...for those of you that couldn't tell : )

I hope Sony will come out with a proprietory API to use the higher resolution, and it slowly becomes standard.

RE: WTF!!!
I.M. Anonymous @ 5/21/2002 5:41:22 PM #
Um, ooohh k.
Did you take your medication today?

R u sure your alright?

RE: WTF!!!
LarryGarfield @ 5/21/2002 8:46:31 PM #
I hope Sony will come out with a proprietory API to use the higher resolution, and it slowly becomes standard.

Oh, you mean the Microsoft Method? Sorry, that's an incredibly stupid idea.

--
This post is ROT26 encrypted. Reading it is a violation of the DMCA

RE: WTF!!!
I.M. Anonymous @ 5/22/2002 10:11:46 AM #
Larry,

If Palm isn't going to step up to the plate, then Sony should. I believe Handspring made thier own API for 16-Bit color and that became standard. I guess I don't see whats so stupid about that....

RE: WTF!!!
I.M. Anonymous @ 5/23/2002 11:26:48 AM #
I agree, if Palm is not going to support collapsible graffiti, someone needs to do it!! Go Sony!!
RE: WTF!!!
I.M. Anonymous @ 5/24/2002 8:33:54 AM #
It looks like we are going to get our way...rumors have it that Sony is going to work with Palmsource on integrating some of the "Sony" features into the next Palm OS. If this is acting like Microsoft, then I say: Go Sony!

To Larry....try to obstain from insults with no backing. It just makes you appear to be stupid yourself.

RE: WTF!!!
I.M. Anonymous @ 5/24/2002 9:18:10 AM #
Creating competeing proprietary APIs when existing APIs already support what is needed isn't just stupid, it's damaging for developers and consumers.
RE: WTF!!!
I.M. Anonymous @ 5/24/2002 9:55:52 AM #
The problem is that existing API's do NOT do what we want. I really like the idea of virtual graffiti and highres+. I reiterate....if Palm can't step up to the plate, let Sony do it.
RE: WTF!!!
I.M. Anonymous @ 5/24/2002 10:13:56 AM #
> The problem is that existing API's do NOT do what we want.

I can quite frankly tell you that you do not know what you are talking about.

RE: WTF!!!
I.M. Anonymous @ 5/24/2002 10:32:58 AM #
>I can quite frankly tell you that you do not know what you are talking about.


Could you please explain then? As far as I understand, the current API's in Palm OS5 do not support VG or highres+.....is that not correct?

RE: WTF!!!
I.M. Anonymous @ 5/24/2002 10:58:52 AM #
You can read some of the discussions further down in this news article, but the Palm OS has had APIs to handle pretty much any size display area since at least OS 3.x and possibly earlier. HandEra used these in its hi-res implementation. Sure, they added some additional functions for hi-res bitmaps and scaling legacy apps, but there is similar support in OS 5. It's worth noting that the HandEra 330 does all kinds of funky resolutions: 240x240, 240x320, 320x160 and 320x240 depending on the screen rotation and state of the graffiti area. As far as virtual graffiti goes, you don't really need an API for it. It's state (open, closed) only impacts the available display area for other apps, and there are already built-in OS functions and events that can provide that info without having a special API for vitual graffiti. A virtual graffiti API is only useful for apps that want to open/close or draw in the graffiti area on their own. Something that most normal apps have no need to do. Anyhow, long story short, OS 5 can easily support 320x480 with virtual graffiti using its existing APIs.
RE: WTF!!!
I.M. Anonymous @ 5/24/2002 12:01:21 PM #
Wow! Thanks for the info!

Thank God!

I.M. Anonymous @ 5/21/2002 4:17:36 PM #
Welcome to the world of Standards! Hope this will make all of our lives simpler
RE: Thank God!
I.M. Anonymous @ 5/21/2002 4:21:06 PM #
yeah right. You wait for standards committees to make decisions on what to do next, you'll be waiting forever.

We need Resolution independant API's like Windows has

RE: Thank God!
I.M. Anonymous @ 5/21/2002 4:38:32 PM #
Yep, I like that BSOD driver!
RE: Thank God!
I.M. Anonymous @ 5/22/2002 4:01:27 AM #
Standards are great!
Everyone should have one (of his own).
RE: Thank God!
I.M. Anonymous @ 5/22/2002 4:23:46 PM #
Where does this leave the Handera 330? They are still running OS3.5.3 but are capable of 240x320 resolution. Will OS5 help aleviate the software incompatability surrounding that machine?
RE: Thank God!
I.M. Anonymous @ 5/23/2002 9:04:43 AM #
> Where does this leave the Handera 330? They are
> still running OS3.5.3 but are capable of 240x320
> resolution. Will OS5 help aleviate the software
> incompatability surrounding that machine?

I have seen pretty minimal incompatabilites currently with software on the 330, so I don't know what you mean by this. As far as the future goes, HandEra could support hi-res on the 330 using the methods/APIs Palm is using in OS 5, but would require an OS update. The way hi-res works on the 330 already isn't that much different than OS 5 anyhow, so I think the future is bright in that sense.

RE: Thank God!
I.M. Anonymous @ 5/23/2002 11:28:52 AM #
I loved the TRGPro, but Handera is getting left in the dust now. They still haven't even released a color device!
RE: Thank God!
I.M. Anonymous @ 5/23/2002 10:20:42 PM #
I am at a loss as to how a device with a very nice hi-res screen, virtual graffiti, very long battery life, and far more (and way cheaper) expansion options than any other Palm OS device is getting left in the dust. Equivalent options for my work would leave me stuck with a low res screen, shorter battery life, and cost twice as much with expansions added in.

Maximum resolution?

I.M. Anonymous @ 5/21/2002 4:23:27 PM #
"The maximum resolution OS 5 supports is 320 by 320."

I thought I read somewhere (in PIC?) that OS 5 would support multiples of 160 pixels.

RE: Maximum resolution?
pontif @ 5/21/2002 4:29:57 PM #
OS 5 supports any multiple of 160. However, using today's technology, 320x320 is all that makes sense.

I THINK it should be possible for an enterprising developer to make a shim that will look like the sony API, but map it to the Palm OS API. If you've ever used the sony API, it was just identical to the Palm OS API except it used 16-bit values for pixel row/column instead of a byte (which isn't sufficient for 320x320) and 32-bit values for bitmap sizes as opposed to 16-bit values. The API lives in a library. All you'd need to do is write a library mimicing it, that turned around and called the Palm OS 32-bit library. From the docs, it looks like the calls are pretty much the same. They just live directly in the OS, rather than in the sonyhr library.


RE: Maximum resolution?
I.M. Anonymous @ 5/21/2002 5:33:32 PM #
From PalmSource's description of OS 5:

Multimedia -- The ability to record sound and play CD-quality digital audio brings higher fidelity sound to mobile devices. Support for high-density screens (up to 320 x 320 pixels) doubles screen resolution, and new selectable color themes will let users customize devices.

http://makeashorterlink.com/?I1C5239E

RE: Maximum resolution?
I.M. Anonymous @ 5/21/2002 5:37:27 PM #
> I thought I read somewhere (in PIC?) that OS 5 would
> support multiples of 160 pixels.

As someone else said, it does. I believe Palm phrases it as something like: they will support 320x320 in OS 5 but other licensees are open to provide their own [including non-square] solutions. It is not the big deal some are making it out to be. I read it as the solution PalmSource will provide to its licensees will include support for 320x320 and it's up to the licensee if they want to add in support for something else. Current Sony owners should be more concerned that they will slowly (or maybe quickly) lose hi-res support in updated and future apps on current devices.

RE: Maximum resolution?
I.M. Anonymous @ 5/21/2002 7:31:32 PM #
So let me get this straight...

If 320 X 320 is as high as PalmSource will support in OS 5, and Sony intends to use the same API with its OS 5 devices, is high res PLUS soft graffiti (as seen on the NR series) dead until at least OS 6 on Sony devices (and, presumably, Palm Hardware devices)?

It sounds like high res will be common, but soft graffiti will not.

RE: Maximum resolution?
I.M. Anonymous @ 5/21/2002 9:12:06 PM #
I think what Sony means is that if they are STILL doing 320x320, or when there is available API in OS5, they would use it. I believe Sony will still tweak the OS is necessary because it is TOO long to wait for PalmSource to do anything. Hmmm, I thought the split would make PalmSource better, it is still so dull but I guess old habit dies hard. Give them some time while Sony or anything other licensees will happily add better features using non-standard means to suit their product line up or target customers.
RE: Maximum resolution?
hotpaw4 @ 5/22/2002 12:38:50 AM #
OS 5 will support a 2x hi-density resolution. This doesn't limit the vertical number of pixels to only 320.

RE: Maximum resolution?
I.M. Anonymous @ 5/22/2002 1:35:19 PM #
PalmSource only became a separate company last year. if you think you can do better (like so many of you boa****l PIC posters), why don't you apply got the job or better yet create a start-up company!

Thank you Sony

I.M. Anonymous @ 5/21/2002 4:36:58 PM #
It's great that Sony is willing to give up their own API and use the Standard OS5 API. They will have to rewrite some of ther own Clie applications for future Clie on OS5.

Thank you Sony for not using the "Embrace & Extend" strategy like M$ does (remember the browser war?).

RE: Thank you Sony
I.M. Anonymous @ 5/21/2002 9:15:06 PM #
NO, I do not want Sony to wait for PalmSource. They will slide back in innovation and make the Sony devices boring and uninteresting.

Sony screws its own users

I.M. Anonymous @ 5/21/2002 4:40:46 PM #
some heads should roll on this one
RE: Sony screws its own users
I.M. Anonymous @ 5/21/2002 5:31:27 PM #
Huh? Your comment makes no sense.
RE: Sony screws its own users
I.M. Anonymous @ 5/21/2002 5:58:07 PM #
I think he might be upset that the HiRes software (mostly games) he already owns will no longer work on the OS5 machines.
RE: Sony screws its own users
I.M. Anonymous @ 5/21/2002 9:39:38 PM #
There are just a couple of Sony-only games and, unless the developers are utter fools, they will be updated to OS 5 about as soon as the first handheld comes out.

Don't most developers already know this?

I.M. Anonymous @ 5/21/2002 4:51:11 PM #
Wasn't this already pretty well known? It's been posted several times on PIC already (maybe not as a headline, but certainly in comments to various articles).

At this year's (U.S.) PalmSource, PalmSource already told everyone that Sony would switch to the new OS5 high-density APIs. Sony said so too and that they'd release a compatibility layer to allow applications written for Sony's High-Resolution API to run on OS5 CLIE devices. Has this changed?

RE: Don't most developers already know this?
I.M. Anonymous @ 5/21/2002 4:58:53 PM #
No, but most people don't even know what API stands for, so any news of Sony getting rid of "this thing" for the default one sounds bad. *sigh* It makes more sense to have higher compatiblity by adopting the same platform, which is the whole idea of the Palm OS, unlike the old mips/sh3 world of WinCE.
RE: Don't most developers already know this?
I.M. Anonymous @ 5/21/2002 5:27:54 PM #
Thanks for the update but because a few developers who were able to go to PalmSource know about this doesn't make it common knowlege.
RE: Don't most developers already know this?
I.M. Anonymous @ 5/22/2002 7:19:20 AM #
>>Thanks for the update but because a few developers who were able to go to PalmSource know about this doesn't make it common knowlege.

Ahh - no. It was mentioned here on PIC.

Wasted Real Estate

I.M. Anonymous @ 5/21/2002 5:10:08 PM #
Someone please tell me I'm not seeing what I think I'm seeing!

Is Palm really going to force a "square" resolution on OS5? Why on God's green earth do we have to waste 25-30% of the screen real estate on a static graffiti area? How difficult, "bloated" or incompatible could it become to at least have collapsing graffiti like H/E & NR70 built into OS5?

IMO, one of the great needs of the handheld form factor is to increse the viewable real estate as greatly as possible. I love the Palm m1xx series but will never own this very functional-affordable device because of decresed screen real estate. Remember the old 8-10" monitors on notebook PCs with same form factor as today's models?

Imagine reading an eBook, viewing a spreadsheet or document, viewing today's events, looking at photos, writing "sticky notes", playing games, searching a map, reading e-mail or surfing the web on a Palm m5xx, H-S Edge or T615 with 100% more viewable screen area! Just examine your Palm OS device and note the mass of unused screen space that could be available with a flexible hi-res API and a creative hardware design. Imagine what 90-95% of the device "front" in screen real estate, at say 320x480, could offer!

I do not desire to desert Palm OS for PPC, but I cannot imagine this feature going through another OS cycle in the stone age. Does this make sense to anyone else out there?

PS - Thank you H/E (330) & Sony (NR) for at least trying ... and ugggghhhh even M-S PPC.

RE: Wasted Real Estate
I.M. Anonymous @ 5/21/2002 5:35:30 PM #
OS 5 "forces" a square screen in the same way OS 4 does. Notice how there are a several OS 4 devices that don't have square screens. Licensees will be able to modify the OS to include a digital graffiti area if they want to under OS 5, the same as they could in OS 4 and even OS 3.

I think future versions of the Palm OS will have a digital graffiti area standard. But OS 5 is about porting the operating system to ARM chips, not remaking the UI. That comes later.

RE: Wasted Real Estate
crustyedgeofinnovation @ 5/21/2002 5:52:13 PM #
all pocket pc are 240x320, so If you went to ppc, you would have an even smaller screen...how much screen do you want, and when would you have a use for one of these screens considering the present day level of technology... why not make a screen that's 800x600, or maybe 1024x768, or 1600 by 1200....we can use these mammoth resolution sceens for all those times when we need to view super high resolution panoramic scenes of the Grand Canyon in the palm of our hand.

RE: Wasted Real Estate
kevdo @ 5/21/2002 6:17:39 PM #
>all pocket pc are 240x320, so If you went to ppc,
>you would have an even smaller screen

Actually, in terms of **usable** screen space the PPC is better. 320x320 doesn't (generally) mean double the amount of "lines" shown in a datebook or address book application. It just means the lines are drawn with more and smaller pixels.

I agree I would rather see a 240x320 device -- or at the very least 320x320 with virutal graffiti.

-Kevin Crossman

RE: Wasted Real Estate
I.M. Anonymous @ 5/21/2002 9:02:12 PM #
PPC does not force the QVGA. There are several software that can make virtual windows all the way up to 2000*2000 pixels, or if one prefers "sub pixel", it can squeezes a VGA screen squeeze into that small 3.8 inch screen.

Bottom line, application would just sit there happy as if nothing happen, either 2000 by 2000 or 240*320, a situation similar to desktop VGA/XGA 13inch/17 inch set up.

RE: Wasted Real Estate
I.M. Anonymous @ 5/22/2002 7:55:59 AM #
>>all pocket pc are 240x320, so If you went to ppc, you would have an even smaller screen...

I think you guys are missing the point. We are talking about improved 'screen real-estate' - not nescarily resolution. That is, by increasing the length of the screen so its not square (ie 50% longer) - you get a screen that is more readable and less cramped because you have more 'physical' space. Of course, you could just make the square screen larger but that screws up the form factor of the device - which is why ppc,sony, and handera opt for a different ratio instead. And if you've used any of these devices, you'll notice right away that it feel MUCH LESS cramped then a standard Palm OS device. I can't believe Palm wouldn't support virtual graffiti in OS 5. Can anyone verify this? Is this really true?

RE: Wasted Real Estate
pontif @ 5/22/2002 10:36:27 AM #
I don't know how many developers there are out here, but the soft graffiti API is not a part of the hi-res api. The whole (and only) reason that sony created a new API for hi-res is that the palmOS API doesn't support anything except 160x160. There are fields in the api calls that are bytes which won't hold a resolution (pixel offset) value > 255, and when you query bitmap sizes, the result has to fit in a 16-bit value. That means at 320x320 these API's will break.

All palmSource has to do is FIX THIS and the Sony API becomes unnecessary. The Sony Virtual Graffiti API is not a part of the Sony HiRes API.

They only way the Sony API is required is that if you hide the graffiti area, then query the current resolution, only the sony API can return the correct value, because the horizontal pixel count is > 160. A "Fixed" palmOS api could also return the correct pixel counts.

When you write a Sony hi-res app (I have) you make calls to both the PalmOS API and the sony extensions. You only use the sony calls when the values are larger than the PalmOS API can deal with. If PalmOS fixes those calls, then the whole Sony Hi-Res API becomes unnecessary. Like I pointed out, the Sony API only includes replacements for the PalmOS function calls that don't work in hi-res! It is not like it is a whole different way of doing things.

RE: Wasted Real Estate
I.M. Anonymous @ 5/22/2002 11:08:14 AM #
pontif - thanks for clearing this up.
RE: Wasted Real Estate
I.M. Anonymous @ 5/22/2002 12:23:47 PM #
> There are fields in the api calls that are bytes which
> won't hold a resolution (pixel offset) value > 255

As far as I know, there are not any API calls that deal with pixel coordinates as 8 bit byte values.

> and when you query bitmap sizes, the result has to fit
> in a 16-bit value. That means at 320x320 these API's
> will break.

Which is one of the many reasons why there is a high density bitmap API in OS 5. The couple of calls that have that issue are relatively insignificant for the developer anyhow. Your statements here are a pretty grand exaggeration of of the actual issues and how things actually work. You have to use the Sony APIs extensively to offer any hi-res support on their devices. Their implementation was quite different to hi-res solutions from others that primarily use the existing Palm APIs with minor additions for scaling and bitmaps.

More Concerned About This Tidbit

Ronin @ 5/21/2002 5:48:51 PM #
Near the very end of the article, this little bomb is mentioned:

"The first release of OS 5 will not support fully native ARM applications, Fedor said. That will come with the next major release."

Isn't this a little more disconcerting than Sony's statement that they will abandon their propietary screen API.

If I read this correctly, developers will be limited in creating ARM native code under OS 5 meaning that the step over to ARM will not be complete with OS 5 and that fully native apps will not exist until some later point.

I thought that the entire purpose of OS 5 was to make the transition to ARM fully and completely without breaking the compatibility of prior software thru PACE. The only thing left would be refinements and interface changes (like the use of color in the native apps, etc).

With this news, the glacial pace of change by Palm seems even more perplexing.

RE: More Concerned About This Tidbit
I.M. Anonymous @ 5/21/2002 6:19:07 PM #
You havne't been following the news have you? This has been common knowledge to all developers I know (myself included) for quite some time. OS 5 is a stepping stone. PalmSource broke one massive release into 2 smaller releases - OS 5 and OS X (whatever X might be is anyone's guess). Developers will be able to make portions of the apps native - but only where it's required (ie highly compute intensive work). The rest will be handled by PACE.

RE: More Concerned About This Tidbit
I.M. Anonymous @ 5/21/2002 6:23:35 PM #
I have to agree. PACE means backwards compatibility with existing apps as long as they are written with clean code. That is a good thing.

However, crippling the ability to write native ARM code to take full advantage of multimedia, etc. is a disturbing revelation, to say the least. I thought OS 5 was going to be a bridge to fully native ARM apps with a way to make existing apps compatible, with only minor UI tweaks, but I guess not. All I can say is that OS 6 better be CLOSE behind and the new ARM hardware released this fall had better be flashable and fully upgradable to OS 6! This is looking more and more like OS 4.5 rather than 5.

RE: More Concerned About This Tidbit
Ronin @ 5/21/2002 6:53:46 PM #
"You havne't been following the news have you? This has been common knowledge to all developers I know (myself included) for quite some time. OS 5 is a stepping stone."

Actually, I have been following the news quite closely. The fact that you and I have different understandings of that news should not be cause to preclude discussion but the initiate it. After all that is the primary purpose of a conversation since everyone's view of the universe is somewhat subjective. I might also add that this is referred to as a discussion thread for a reason.

In any event, my comment was not directed to the notion that OS 5 is a stepping stone this is indeed public knowledge. However, this is the first time I have read that it will not be possible to create fully ARM native code under OS 5. I knew that Palm wanted to discourage this to maintain backwards compatibility (and intends to do so for sometime even after there is is a Palm OS capable of supporting ARM native code) but I do not believe it was mentioned before that even if a developer wanted to creat an app that was too robust for PACE and needed to be ARM native code the developer could not do so. It appears that the step made in OS 5 is smaller than I thought.

RE: More Concerned About This Tidbit
I.M. Anonymous @ 5/21/2002 6:58:01 PM #
> crippling the ability to write native ARM code to take full
> advantage of multimedia, etc. is a disturbing revelation

The OS calls are fully native as far as I understand. Any multimedia calls made will be calling ARM code.

RE: More Concerned About This Tidbit
I.M. Anonymous @ 5/21/2002 8:18:42 PM #
Won't running everything under an emulator cause a bigger battery drain than necessary? I hope we are not headed down the road of 2 hour battery life with the 1st generation ARM Palm models...
RE: More Concerned About This Tidbit
I.M. Anonymous @ 5/21/2002 9:07:40 PM #
If OS 5.0 is just some 68k emulator running on top of ARM, what's the different between Zaurus running Linux with QPOSE?

it emulates 68K too.

What exactly is the real advantge of OS 5.0? it sounds more and more like 4.0 patch running on Arm, with some minor up date like color option UI and sound ability.

Might as well get Zaurus than.

RE: More Concerned About This Tidbit
hotpaw4 @ 5/22/2002 12:42:52 AM #
>If OS 5.0 is just some 68k emulator running on top of ARM, what's the different between Zaurus running Linux with QPOSE?

The OS itself is ARM native. Thus an application which uses a high frequency of OS calls (window manager graphics calls for instance) will be running mostly native and go faster. An application which spends a lot of time in custom 68k code might very well run 2x slower, depending on the performance of the ARM CPU.

RE: More Concerned About This Tidbit
bcombee @ 5/22/2002 1:14:52 AM #
68K-based apps will be able to set up ARM code segments, and call those for high performance code. However, if the ARM code wants to call the OS to perform a task, it has to jump back through the 68K emulation layer. This lets PalmSource continue to only support the old 68K API while they work on perfecting the ARM native API which will show up in a future OS release. They can still add functionality (like they have for sound playback/recording and cryptography) by exposing the APIs as shared libraries.

You will see hybrid 68K/ARM apps in some key categories once the devices are out. I fully expect to see action games, video playback apps, graphic demos, and more take advantage of it. Even PalmSource is taking advantage of it in little ways -- the new DateBook in OS 5 uses ARM code to perform fast sorting. One of the winning hacks at PalmSource 2002 was John Marshall's fast Mandelbrot generator running in mixed 68K/ARM code on a Palm OS 5 development board.

--
CodeWarrior for Palm OS technical lead
Programming help at www.palmoswerks.com

RE: More Concerned About This Tidbit
I.M. Anonymous @ 5/22/2002 8:06:56 AM #
Ah ha - the Code Warrior guy!!! I love yr product but i have been dying for months to corner one of you guys on this point: When the hell are you going to give us something better then that god-awful, buggy, Constructor???? If i had a nickel for every time that app scramled my resources, i'd be rich! Honestly, i have lost hours and hours of work because of that thing!! Why not use a more open approach - let me edit text files (and real bitmap files for graphics)if i want. I know i can do this by going with pilrc w/plugin but that is a pain. Give us a better (and way less buggy) solution!! Constructor is not exactly a good advertisement for Code Warrior as a development tool. Anyways, love the rest of CW (oh - except after 8 versions you'd think i could compile my app without the IDE re-aranging the MDI layouts!). Can we expect an major overhaul of CW for Palm soon?
RE: More Concerned About This Tidbit
bcombee @ 5/22/2002 12:53:43 PM #
The lameness of Constructor is a very well known problem to our team at MW. Right now, we're actively working on V9, and fixing resource editing is one of the MAJOR goals for this release. Supporting ARMlet development is the other major goal, but there are lots of other improvements we're doing too. I can't say much more right now, but I think a lot of programmers will be really happy with the changes we've got in store for this fall. Keep reading the palmoswerks.com site, and I'll try to get some previews posted later in the Summer.

--
CodeWarrior for Palm OS technical lead
Programming help at www.palmoswerks.com
RE: More Concerned About This Tidbit
I.M. Anonymous @ 5/22/2002 6:44:48 PM #
A new resource editor - finally! Awesome - an end to frustration (or at least that variety). Ed - this is the real story.
RE: More Concerned About This Tidbit
I.M. Anonymous @ 5/22/2002 6:47:02 PM #
BTW bcombee - love yr site. Very helpful.

NR70: Instantaneous Obsolesence

I.M. Anonymous @ 5/21/2002 6:46:40 PM #
Nice!
RE: NR70: Instantaneous Obsolesence
I.M. Anonymous @ 5/21/2002 6:56:50 PM #
Oh..poor moron, i know u r so jealous of NR70 , we can understand your pain.
RE: NR70: Instantaneous Obsolesence
I.M. Anonymous @ 5/21/2002 7:30:11 PM #
Actually - if the newer Palm Devices are only 320x320...then wouldn't that pretty much indicate that the NR70 is the most advanced model available now, and for the immediate future?

What's on the horizon is vaporware until I can play with its buttons...

RE: NR70: Instantaneous Obsolesence
I.M. Anonymous @ 5/22/2002 12:49:34 PM #
Oh, pllleeeaaaasssseeee! I bet you just wanted to feel proud of yourself by squeezing 9 syllables into 2 words, like it makes you smarter or something.

The fact that the NR series is based on OS 4.1 and therefore the "old" APIs hardly makes it obsolescent. It still has virtual graffiti, multimedia capability, and more functions than even the first OS5 machines will have. I would expect major developers will still support it for some time, especially with its current lightning-fast sales. What's more, the fact that OS4.1 is well-established will actually HELP it. Which would you prefer: a machine that does just about everything you could ask using a tried-and-true OS, or a machine that, while new, has a good chance of being "buggy" and less stable?

I know what my answer is...I just hope the price comes down soon.

palm needs to fix their OS

I.M. Anonymous @ 5/21/2002 7:59:42 PM #
Palm really, really needs a decent windowing API. "Multiples of 160x160" simply doesn't cut it. How is Sony going to develop something like a 320x480 based handheld using the OS5 APIs? How is Palm going to take advantage of QVGA and VGA screens for handhelds?
RE: palm needs to fix their OS
WhoControlsTheMedia? @ 5/21/2002 8:10:07 PM #
Don't expect innovation to come from Palm.

I am not worried because I figure Sony will find a way to use virtual graffiti despite the rigidity of PalmOS 5 vis a vis resolution. Some API modifications should do it.

RE: palm needs to fix their OS
I.M. Anonymous @ 5/21/2002 9:49:40 PM #
Palm OS 1-4.0 is only compatible with 160x160 pixels. However, HandEra and Sony, two different companies, came about two different ways of breaking this. While at the same time, Handspring added expansion to an OS that couldn't handle it.

Don't worry about the 'multiples' rule. Licensees are usually free to rewrite the code to fit their needs (as sony, handspring, and handera have done)

RE: palm needs to fix their OS
I.M. Anonymous @ 5/22/2002 1:11:37 AM #
"Don't worry about the 'multiples' rule. Licensees are usually free to rewrite the code to fit their needs (as sony, handspring, and handera have done)"

I worry because I am a software developer and I can't figure out what the hell I'm supposed to do. I don't want to roll out upgrades every time someone comes with a device with a previously unknown screen resolution. I don't want to have to write weird special cases for every single device under the sun. That's what operating systems are supposed to shield me from. I can write applications for PocketPC or Linux handhelds and they run across a wide variety of screen sizes. It's just Palm that's stuck with such pre-historic APIs. Come on, guys, the Apple ][ days are over.

RE: palm needs to fix their OS
bcombee @ 5/22/2002 1:19:10 AM #
I support PalmSource's decision to stick with 320x320, as Palm OS 5 is an interim release. They didn't want to change the programming model for OS 5: the 68K emulator, the Palm OS 4.1-level API, and 320x320 mode all show this. I think they'll make the non-square break with their next big OS version -- that OS will require a lot of code rewrite to support the new APIs, so its a good time to break from the square screen they've been using. In the meantime, their high density screen APIs mean that almost every application continues to work well, they get prettier icons and fonts, and apps that need higher resolution can start using it. Its a win for everyone for the most part.

--
CodeWarrior for Palm OS technical lead
Programming help at www.palmoswerks.com
RE: palm needs to fix their OS
pontif @ 5/22/2002 10:55:16 AM #
Non-square works NOW in the OS 5 API. All that was required was fixing the API so it doesn't break when the resolution isn't 160x160 and/or the height doesn't match the width.

They've done that already in OS 5. Height and width are now independant variables everywhere in the API, and the size and pixel offsets, etc., now support values > 160.

That is all that the Sony API did, was replace the "broken" API's that wouldn't work at resolutions > 160. Sony didn't replace the whole graphics API.

Also, for the record, the Sony Virtual Graffiti API on the NR70 isn't attached to or a part of the Sony Hi-Res API. The new PalmOS 5 API should fully support a hidden graffiti area, since all that is required is that horizontal res not be tied to vertical, and height and widths > 160 be supported.

The only way the graphics calls change when the graffiti are is hidden, is that "current resolution" queries return > 320 for the vertical value, and "y" values > 320 work on output.

RE: palm needs to fix their OS
pontif @ 5/22/2002 11:07:10 AM #
Ok, I need to ammend what I said. Non-square works now, but the basic device resolution *should* be a multiple of 160, so that "legacy" apps that don't call the new graphics API don't break. A virtual graffiti area doesn't break this, as long as the screen is 160x160 or 320x320 with the virtual area displayed. That provides a "backwards compatibility" mode for apps that don't know about 320x480, etc. However, it is important that legacy apps *think* they are running at 160x160, and this works best at even multiples of 160x160 like 320x320 which allow for pixel doubling.

RE: palm needs to fix their OS
I.M. Anonymous @ 5/22/2002 1:35:56 PM #
> They've done that already in OS 5. Height and width are
> now independant variables everywhere in the API, and the
> size and pixel offsets, etc., now support values > 160.

That was true in OS 3.x. See a HandEra 330 for an example.

> That is all that the Sony API did, was replace the
> "broken" API's that wouldn't work at resolutions > 160.
> Sony didn't replace the whole graphics API.

I would say that is a relatively inaccurate statement.

RE: palm needs to fix their OS
I.M. Anonymous @ 5/22/2002 2:21:04 PM #
"Non-square works now, but the basic device resolution *should* be a multiple of 160, so that "legacy" apps that don't call the new graphics API don't break."

That shouldn't be hard to work around either. "legacy" apps don't break on a HandEra 330. It's using a 240x240 square screen with the graffiti area displayed. Apps *do* think they're running 160x160, it's the OS that controls, based on user preference, if they're displayed at 160x160 in the center of the screen, 160x160 in upper left mode for particularly gnarled apps, but in most cases they just elegantly scale to fit the larger screen. The only wrinkle there's ever been is if there are bitmaps displayed which get stretched to 1.5 times, they no longer look as ideal. An app that wants to make use of the higher resolution screen includes substitute higher-res bitmaps. But then they do that on a high-res sony too. The only difference is that in absence of higher-res bitmaps, Sony's pixel doubling looks less obviously stretched than 1.5x half doubling.

"...A virtual graffiti area doesn't break this, as long as the screen is 160x160 or 320x320 with the virtual area displayed. "

Nor does it currently break any apps on a 330. Shrink the graffiti area, and all that happens is the graffiti area shrinks. The app is still running at 160x160 as far as it knows, and the space below it just remains blank if the app isn't HandEra aware.

However if one wants to play with all the options, HEFontMapper lets you try even scaling 160x160 apps to the full 240x320. In fact even Mr. Fedor's own MyBible app will scale to 240x320 and use a higher res QVGA font on a 330 using this hack, letting you fit much more content on the screen.

This should all be infinitely simpler to do at the OS level.

I wonder why we all keep making excuses for Palmsource's half finished code in the areas of resolution and VFS, saying it can't be done, when it's BEING done.


RE: palm needs to fix their OS
I.M. Anonymous @ 5/22/2002 2:49:36 PM #
Let's not forget that the HandEra 330 also does 320x240 and 320x160 in rotated, landscape mode as well. That is all done using essentialy the existing Palm APIs that have been there since at least OS 3.x.

> I wonder why we all keep making excuses for Palmsource's
> half finished code in the areas of resolution and VFS,
> saying it can't be done, when it's BEING done.

I would say that PalmSource's code is far more than half finished. When it comes to hi-res, the real issue isn't the APIs, it is the development tools. The development tools are all geared toward creating, essentially hand drawn, 160x160 apps. That's great for drawing up a simple GUI, but not necessarily for anything scalable to other resolutions.

RE: palm needs to fix their OS
pontif @ 5/22/2002 4:18:16 PM #
"That shouldn't be hard to work around either. "legacy" apps don't break on a HandEra 330. It's using a 240x240 square screen with the graffiti area displayed. "
Actually the API works for handera because the res < 255, which is the point where the API breaks.

I just double checked my OS 5 SDK docs and header files, and it sure looks to me like they support original (160x160), one-and-a-half (240x240), double (320x320), triple (480x480) and quad (640x640?) scaling modes. They document and define constants for those modes in the new WinSetCoordinateSystem and WinGetCoordinateSystem High-Density API function calls.

All coordinates are now 16-bit values. Bitmap sizes are returned as 32-bit values by BmpGetSizes although the older BmpBitsSize is still documented as returning a 16-bit value.


RE: palm needs to fix their OS
I.M. Anonymous @ 5/22/2002 4:28:47 PM #
> Actually the API works for handera because the res < 255,
> which is the point where the API breaks. [ ... ]
> All coordinates are now 16-bit values.

I would suggest you do considerably more thinking before you keep posting. All coordinates have been 16 bit values for some time now. How exactly do you think the 320 pixel dimension on the HandEra 330 is supported then?

RE: palm needs to fix their OS
bcombee @ 5/22/2002 6:10:16 PM #
In reworking the resource editing for CodeWarrior for Palm OS V9 and later, I'm already taking into account HandEra support with their 240x240 form structures. OS 5 is still only going to support form definitions on a 160x160 grid, but I think we'll have something flexible enough to deal with other-sized forms once those resource types become better defined.

--
CodeWarrior for Palm OS technical lead
Programming help at www.palmoswerks.com
RE: palm needs to fix their OS
I.M. Anonymous @ 5/22/2002 6:56:41 PM #
I am not sure i understand. Is it that OS 5 supports hi-res for stuff like WinPaint API funtions, but when it comes to positioning controls, you still only have 'every other' pixel to work with (virtual 160 x 160, if you will)? Of course ,for compatibilty w/OS 4.1 - this is kind of obvious i guess. But will i be able to use CW's resource editor for 320 x 480 (sony NR)? or 320 x 320? How will this be done?
RE: palm needs to fix their OS
I.M. Anonymous @ 5/23/2002 12:30:06 AM #
Merely being able to address 320x320 pixels is not the same as real support for devices with different screen resolutions. The toolkit and layout systems also need to be changed greatly.

If Palm doesn't fulfill this need, third parties may end up doing it. OS5 on ARM is probably fast enough and has enough memory to allow people to port existing cross-platform toolkits to the Palm and use a unified API for Palm and PocketPC.

Of course, if Palm lets that happen by not addressing this need themselves, people will care less and less about what platform they run on.

RE: palm needs to fix their OS
pontif @ 5/23/2002 3:56:15 PM #
"I would suggest you do considerably more thinking before you keep posting."

You are so kind when you hide behind anonymous posting...

Ok, I just double checked and type Coord is indeed a UInt16, not UInt8, like I thought, but that just means there is even less work to do to get the API to work.

To be honest, I think what most people are thinking about related to "non-square" support is with the forms manager, and the fact that you can't just design two versions of a form - one to fit 160x160, and one to fit 320x480 (insert your favorite non-square [virtual graffiti] res here), and have the OS simply pick the right one for the current display mode.

The problem with that is really that there isn't a standard resolution or even set of proportions for a non-square "form" on palm, and I doubt PalmSource is planning on setting one any time soon.

I have no desire to get into a flamewar on whether HandEra's API enhancements are better than Sony's API enhancements, or anything of the sort. In fact, I expect many more permutations of the resolution before any standard gets established. That is what worries me the most.

Haven't you guys heard of the compatibility layer??

cykalan @ 5/21/2002 11:09:01 PM #
Earlier in Palmsource Japan 2002, it has been mentioned that Palmsource WOULD BE RELEASING a hi-res compatibilty layer for the existing Apps utilizting the Sony Hi-Res API in the OS 5.....how come you guys haven't heard of that...?

quoted below is the original sayign in the powerpoint:

"High-density Window Manager
• Natural and simple support for higher
density screens
• Existing applications get benefits with no work
– Better fonts, smooth buttons…
• Tools support multiple densities in a bitmap
family, so OS picks “best” one for device
• API adopted by Sony compatibility layer coming
• Details in talk 107"

see? you may want to check out more at...
http://210.153.100.248/slides-2002/100.pdf

Alan
----
Read your manuals before you ask!!

RE: Haven't you guys heard of the compatibility layer??
I.M. Anonymous @ 5/22/2002 12:03:22 AM #
Not PalmSource, but SONY will provide compatibility layer.

RE: Haven't you guys heard of the compatibility layer??
pontif @ 5/22/2002 10:45:54 AM #
If Sony doesn't, someone else could. I could, if I had the time. As I've said in previous posts, it wouldn't be that difficult. The Sony API basically only replaces certain PalmOS functions that break if you call them with values > 160, not the whole graphics API.

Also, the Virtual Graffiti API is not related to the hi-res API. They only way it affects it at all, is that if you have the virtual graffiti area hidden, and query the current resolution, the vertical resolution return value is greater than the horizontal value.

are you the same Ed from pdabuzz

I.M. Anonymous @ 5/22/2002 7:12:55 AM #
who is comparing the new palm os 5.0 with "being pregnant, but not fully pregnant"?
http://makeashorterlink.com/?V4E313AE

RE: are you the same Ed from pdabuzz
Ed @ 5/22/2002 9:44:40 AM #
No, aside from a slight coincidence of names, EdH and I have nothing in common.

---
News Editor
RE: are you the same Ed from pdabuzz
I.M. Anonymous @ 5/22/2002 11:14:54 AM #
ok, but what is your real name? checked the palminfocenter but couldn't find it? where can i find your name (and contributors)?

Thank God

I.M. Anonymous @ 5/22/2002 12:43:12 PM #
Yay for developers.

Eston Bond
CEO Pine Tree Software
http://www.pinetreesoftware.net/

Will Sony NRV70 be outdated in terms of apps?

I.M. Anonymous @ 5/22/2002 1:12:58 PM #
Hello:

I have been following the emerging Palm 5.0 update and have seen rumors stating that the new update will the recent CNET article do you feel that if Palm adapts this gradual strategy, then will the new recently released Sony Clie PEG-NR70V/ become outdated and not flexible in terms of upgradeability and range of apps available?

I am asking as a teacher who is planning to buy a series of the Clie's for our multimedia arts class and who is extremeley anxious about getting the most bang for our buck...

RE: Will Sony NRV70 be outdated in terms of apps?
I.M. Anonymous @ 5/22/2002 1:33:00 PM #
In the very short term, I think the answer is no. As OS 5 devices start to come out, I think the answer will become yes.
RE: Will Sony NRV70 be outdated in terms of apps?
WhoControlsTheMedia? @ 5/22/2002 5:05:55 PM #
As OS5 devices begin to come out, I think the answer will be no.

The NR70V is probably superior to the first PalmOS 5 device that Palm will release. Of course Sony's first OS5 device will beat the NR70V, and hopefully some of the older players like Handspring and Handera will surprise us with a cool OS5 device.

But even so, OS5 is basically a patch for OS4 and the differences will be minimal (read these threads), so you won't be missing much by going with an NR70V.

RE: Will Sony NRV70 be outdated in terms of apps?
I.M. Anonymous @ 5/22/2002 10:14:06 PM #
this is exactly my concern - I was planning to buy one of the new sony's but am now wondering whether any new apps will be released that support the sony API...I would assume that sony will move to os5, although you never know how long they will sell w/ 4.1. But, a nrv70 with 4.1 by definition will be a limited audience, so I can't see devleopers putting a lot of resource into this rather than developing for os5.

Now, if supporting the sony api is not that much more work, perhaps it makes sense to support it to pick up the NRV70 4.1 owners (not sure how many that will be??). But I could also envision some developers not bothering w/ the sony API set which would make me want to hold off for the NRV70 w/ 5.0 (although I'm sure it will be buggy to)..

So, I dont' really know what to do at this point...NRV70 w/ 4.1 w/ currently available apps + more in the immediate future sounds like a pretty good platform but I wonder whether it's worth waiting (a few??) mos. to get the same model w/ OS5 (assuming it would be released). It's not clear whether sony would offer an upgrade for NRV70 to 5.0 and I'm sure it would cost $$. If they would commit to making that available (at all) then I would be less hesitant to dive into the current model...

flip flop, I feel flike a fish.

anyone have any thoughts on this???

HAHAHA!!!`

I.M. Anonymous @ 5/22/2002 1:32:38 PM #
I am glad I ditched my T615 (sold it) and got the m515, all my apps are standard apps now so when i get a OS5 PDA I don't need reorganize my apps!
RE: HAHAHA!!!`
cykalan @ 5/22/2002 1:46:18 PM #
apparently you have missed my post above....

also....standard resolution apps =/= standard apps....

all your hacks, and many other apps developed in a way that is not following the rules defined by palmsource COULD also be not executable on OS5..........

Alan
----
Read your manuals before you ask!!

RE: HAHAHA!!!`
I.M. Anonymous @ 5/22/2002 3:56:13 PM #
> got the m515

no wonder you are conformable with that STANDARD SUDS m515

RE: HAHAHA!!!`
I.M. Anonymous @ 5/22/2002 4:07:12 PM #
The NR70 already exceeds most of what PalmOS5 will initially offer. It will have the standard Palm API for 320x320 screens...which is less than the NR70 has...and will not fully support the new StrongArm processor until OSX is released sometime in the future. So .. ur pALm m5x5 with Os5 is aged already.
RE: HAHAHA!!!`
I.M. Anonymous @ 5/22/2002 5:20:24 PM #
you missed his point, he has load of standard palmos API programs that will work on a new OS 5 ARM PDA. His point is many Sony specific programs with the Hi-Res API will not work on OS 5 ARM PDAs. There you go.
RE: HAHAHA!!!`
I.M. Anonymous @ 5/23/2002 5:47:00 AM #
we've said that there will be a compatability layer for programs utilizing Sony's Hi-Res API in OS5....

I TOLD YOU SO!!

I.M. Anonymous @ 5/22/2002 2:24:27 PM #
I can't believe people are mad... we ALL told you Sony was dropping their API, they stated that back at Palmsource MONTHS ago! This isn't new news folks. It also is the reason few apps will take advantage of Sony's 320x480 screen and even their current 320x320 screens... because at this point with OS 5 on our doorstep why waste time writing an app for a minimal amount of Palms, while using the new API insures broad acceptance?

Also Sony continues to stick with their Memory Sticks while Handspring is about to go all SD Card slots with future Treo units (both wireless and not wireless) and the Visor product line fading out. This means Palm and Handspring will share the same expansion soultion, the same soultion now being used in many Pocket PCs... folks Memory Stick is a dead end.

Now my wife has a T615 which is great but I knew when I bought it she wouldn't need memory sticks, nor aftermarket programs to use the great screen... now me... I have a m505 and wait to see what the best OS 5 handheld (slim) with a 320x320 or greater screen will be...

RE: I TOLD YOU SO!!
cykalan @ 5/22/2002 2:40:41 PM #
troll...

Alan
----
Read your manuals before you ask!!
RE: I TOLD YOU SO!!
I.M. Anonymous @ 5/22/2002 3:54:59 PM #
> I have a m505
No wonder you are a troll

RE: I TOLD YOU SO!!
I.M. Anonymous @ 5/22/2002 4:40:20 PM #
I see that his wife has better judgement -)

M505 owners already feel screwed so I guess it warrants making others to feel that they have been screwed as well.

LOL

RE: I TOLD YOU SO!!
I.M. Anonymous @ 5/22/2002 5:21:35 PM #
What's wrong with m505s? you must be a Sony supporter...no wonder...bandwagon jumper...loser...must be owning a Playstation too eh?

Just got a NR70v

I.M. Anonymous @ 5/22/2002 10:24:44 PM #
Ok....I am a new (less than 5 hour) purchaser of my first "palm" device the Sony NR70v.

I just switched from my OLD Win CE Philips Nino.....(ya..ya...hush the snickering)

Anyways...I was just wondering if Sony couldn't just flash upgrade the ROM in the Nr?? Sorry I am new to palm so have NO idea....

Should I return it and wait a couple more months????
Does anyone have a suggestion for me?

RE: Just got a NR70v
I.M. Anonymous @ 5/23/2002 9:13:52 AM #
> I was just wondering if Sony couldn't just flash
> upgrade the ROM in the Nr??

Not with OS 5, it requires a different CPU than is in the current NR series. They could provide OS 4.x updates, but Sony has provided very little in the way of OS updates for their devices in the past.

RE: Just got a NR70v
I.M. Anonymous @ 5/29/2002 4:46:04 AM #
the next MAJOR update - the PalmOS 5 will arrive in Summer/Autumn, so I really suggest that you hold off until then since NO current PalmOS handhelds however advanced in features they are can be upgraded to PalmOS 5.

NOT TRUE NOT TRUE NOT TRUE

I.M. Anonymous @ 5/23/2002 2:24:34 PM #
>>
Current versions of the Palm OS only support 160 by 160 screens.<<

This is false, and has been since OS 3.0. The problem is, as others have pointed out, the OS has no windowing API to allow apps to easily expand to fill out extra screen space. Thus the HandEra & Sony HiRes hacks. But you can write a Palm OS application today that takes advantage of any screen resolution you can think of. It will just look funny on the majority of Palm-powered machines, because they all have (or support) 160x160 displays.


Sony Releases

I.M. Anonymous @ 7/30/2002 6:47:47 AM #
Any pictures of furture products sony will be releasing with os 5 and when they will be released?
RE: Sony Releases
I.M. Anonymous @ 7/30/2002 7:27:04 AM #
no, sony's product is usually a well kept secret until it's announced.
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