Comments on: Rumor: More Info on Palm's Upcoming Models
According to this source, which the site characterizes as very reliable, the names "Tungsten" and "Zire" will be the names for product lines, like the way Handspring makes the Visor and Treo lines. The Tungsten line will be high end and run Palm OS 5, while the Zire line will be entry-level and run OS 4.
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RE: Zire Huh...
RE: Zire Huh...
RE: Zire Huh...
RE: Zire Huh...
This makes the Palm much more powerful.
Just wonder how much the SD support will add
the cost to the machine.
Anybody has knowledge of this?
RE: Zire Huh...
My mother doesn't need the same capabilities I do. Like many users, this device will be a replacement address book with a builtin calculator and calendar. She probably wouldn't load up anything else, and will be lucky if she remembers to back it up (ever). I think she is the type of user this device will be targetted at, not the average PIC reader.
RE: Zire Huh...
RE: Zire Huh...
RE: Zire Huh...
RE: Zire Huh...
While in theory a bargain basement unit is a tremendous idea, every aspect of the Zire model is that of a directionless, clueless company with no forward thinking vision whatsoever. I'd think a moderately equipped model selling for around $90 with 4 buttons and the UC would do their reputation less harm than a totally stripped down model whose hardware is totally incompatible with every other Palm unit ever and shares only branding and OS with the rest of the lineup.
So here we go again, Palm's gonna go off and alienate a whole new segment of the user base, *just* as they had managed to cobble together a reasonable lineup of UC/SD equipped OS4 handhelds. If this is an indicator of what's to come, I'd rather have seen refreshed versions of the current lineup for the holiday season (faster draonballs, 16 megs of ram, etc).
RE: Zire Huh...
How many people who had a Vx and then an m505 are going to run out and buy an bargain basement PDA like this? Zero.
Palm is being very smart to target the people who want minimum function for minimum cost. If they can get the Zire out for $50, they will have a huge hit. You are clearly underestimating the effect of brands. Someone who just wants a PIM is going to be thrilled when they find one in a store that is $50 and comes from a brand name they know: Palm.
Palm has a vision for what they are doing. You might not like it but they sell more handhelds than any other company and you're just some guy complaining on the Internet.
RE: Zire Huh...
Heh, all kidding aside, you have a pretty good point. I think that a low-cost Palm OS based PDA is in order, but why not stick with the m1XX type connections etc.? Well, unless this new one IS very low cost (a possibility!), it won't sell well. IMO. I mean, they're not even going to have the Palm name -- they'll be regarded as a completely 'new' company by those uninformed about Palm news.
I also don't get the 2 button thing. Really, put a few more cents into it and have 4 buttons.
RE: Zire Huh...
RE: Zire Huh...
The Zire is not intended for those who hotsync daily. Period. It's for on the go people who want a small, inexpensive device to remember all their phone numbers and appts and so on.
RE: Zire Huh...
But I still think that Palm should've stayed with the Universal Connector
universal connector
http://www.palm.com/shared_intl2/ie/products/whypalm/Expansion_white_Paper.pdf
"The Future of Palm Handhelds:
...The expansion slot will be an integral part of the majority of our handhelds offered in the next two to three years, with the first product introductions scheduled for the first half of 2001... No matter where the future takes handheld computing, Palm will be leading the way."
They've slipped in the second part of that (my opinion), so maybe the first part too? Either that or delay the product launch and they'll be in the clear in a year or so ;-)
-Craig Bowers
RE: Zire Huh...
RE: Zire Huh...
RE: Zire Huh...
Of course, the real tragedy in all of this is that Palm are likely going to sell a unit that should not (since it's too late to redesign it) sell for a penny over $50 for $90-$100 (I predict)!
Thiz Zire in its current execution will...well, it's current execution may very well execute Palm themselves. I think that, on top of everything else, there are going to be a few "joe six packs" at Best Buy scratching their heads and wonderng why the new Palm is named after an African nation. As much as I hate to say it, something "recognizable" by the masses might have been effective, such as the "iPalm 100" or even resurrect the "Palm Personal" moniker.
RE: Zire Huh...
> same cost
You are comparing what you *think* the Zire will cost on the first day it is released to what the m105 cost 2 years after its release. In a few months, the Zire will drop in price another $20 -$30. Before it is discontinued, it will be half its original cost, if it follows the usual price trend.
Even on that first day, the Zire will have several advantages over the m105. We know it won't have the large housing that turns so many people off. It probably won't have a reduced size screen that also turns people off. That's enough to put it ahead in my book.
I hear people calling for the Universal Connector. I don't think it is going to be an issue. How many people are going to buy a $50 - $60 handheld and a $100 keyboard? About the same number who buy a $500 PC at Wal-Mart and a $2000 graphics card and get mad that the two don't work together.
RE: Zire Huh...
RE: Zire Huh...
so the palm name cant be slapped on zire...but what about some sort of "company formerly known as palm label? would that be doable? joe six pack responds, ex-palm rakes it in.
RE: Zire Huh...
> so the palm name cant be slapped on zire...but what about some sort of "company
> formerly known as palm label? would that be doable? joe six pack responds, ex-palm
> rakes it in.
answer - Maybe they will do something like that for the first couple of year. It would be a good idea and an a legal license could easily be written. They will do everything in their power to retain as much of the Palm brand identity as legaly possible. What they cannot do is allow brand confussion between Palm and Palmsource and that will be impossible if they keep the Corp name of Palm. The Palm Tungsten from Palm powered by Palmsource will not work. If they do that then any company will be able to be called a Palm PC because the trademark will become dillited and confused and therfore considered abandoned by law. If they tried to keep Palm for both comanies then the term Palm PC will be as common as desktop PC once the hardware competitors start legaly eating away at the trademark by refering to their computers as Palm PC's. "Handsring announces it's latest line of Palm PC's the Visor, Treo....." They would love to do that and they would.
If you don't understand the trademark laws when it pertains to company splits then read this. http://www.pattishall.com/pdfs/TrademarkLicensing.pdf
And remember we are talking about 2 separatly owned but similar companies here not one company selling corn and the other light bulbs.
RE: Zire Huh...
RE: Zire Huh...
Just my $0.02. =)
Sliding graffiti area?
Cutomer looking at Sharp Zaurus
If this has driven customers away from the Sharp, rather than toward it, why is Palm trying this? Unless it seemed like a good idea at the time, before anyone knew the sliding cover would be purchase detriment, not attraction.
RE: Sliding graffiti area?
1/ Battery life(hence only using 320x320 not 320x480 & virtual grafitti)
2/ Size. The sliding grafitti area will reduce the size of the unit (maybe slightly thicker) and make it more pocketable. 50% of users will only need to slide open to use grafitti 50% of the time. And yes you would still be able to get to a home button somehow. Remember all this talk about voice recognition, and now the Palm will have the processing power, WHAT THIS SPACE!
Bruce B
Zaurus design makes sense, Palm doesn't
For the Palm, I don't know why you would want it to slide. You need the Grafiti area for almost everything, and the Palm-with-Grafiti area really is pretty compact already since the screen is smaller and square.
m555 (aka. Oslo)
Release date Last week of October 2002
Likely Part Name Palm M555
Features include but are not limited to:
New Dragonball processor ~175Mhz
New Screen 320X320 65000 color
16MB RAM
Bluetooth included
SD card slot
Headphone port (MP3 support included)
Palm OS 5 , yes that's right Palm OS 5
New included software includes bluetooth based games, standard apps like web clipping, PIM stuff, documents to go, and basic picture stuff.
Expected list price
$499 (I think is expecting a little much, $399 and we're talking a winner)
RE: m555 (aka. Oslo)
RE: m555 (aka. Oslo)
Was this from a newsgroup?
the m555 name sounds fishy to me, if for no other reason is that 555 is the prefix used for fictitious phone numbers in movies and on TV. Otherwise, the unit sounds top-notch!
Also, any word if this unit supports the current Universal Connector standard?
RE: m555 (aka. Oslo)
Bogus -- there isn't and won't be a dragonball processor at that speed.
RE: m555 (aka. Oslo)
RE: m555 (aka. Oslo)
> Bogus -- there isn't and won't be a dragonball processor at that speed.
Not completely true.
The Dragonball MX1 has an ARM core, has been announced at 150Mhz and is rated up to 200Mhz. And it's been OS5 certified.
RE: m555 (aka. Oslo)
However, MX1 hits the 175MHz mark, is certified, and Bluetooth support chips are said to add about $5 to the cost of a unit.
The m555 does sound bogus though. I guess time will tell. I hope the October and price estimates are true ... this could be the device I am waiting on (astill on 3.1H, and 3.0 in my VII :)
Token
RE: m555 (aka. Oslo)
Geez....for the love of God - can't anyone see that sony gives more for your dollar - and has been doing so consistently????
Don't get me wrong...I have been a palm owner for the past 5 years...but its time we accept the fact - sony has given more at a lower price and EARLIER than palm....
RE: m555 (aka. Oslo)
Palm is losing the name 'Palm', PalmSource is getting it. There will be no more Palm mXXX. I don't know if these new names will be Tungsten or Zire, but they won't be 'Palm'.
Even if it were real, that's not nearly enough RAM.
RE: m555 (aka. Oslo)
----------------------------------------
A few years ago at the Sony handheld Dept.:" That's the most stupid name ever. Who would want to buy something called a 'Clie'? You must be out of your mind!"
OMAP1510 is rated at 175 MHz
RE: m555 (aka. Oslo) @ 175 Mhz! Too Kool!
Too Kool! Yaa hooooooooo!!!!
TI OMAP
Maybe Dragonball VZ for the low-end; Dragonball MX1 (an ARM chip) for the high-end; and OMAP for Smartphone? After all, they don't have to use the same processor for all devices.
Too much palm hipe...
Oslo/Tungsten: no jog dial, sliding graffiti area??? no virtual graffiti, i mean its ugly!
And then what the hell is this zire crap?? 2MB?!? no expansion WHATSOEVER? (no "universal" connect or SD slot) that falls pretty short of the standards nowadays (8mb, at least ONE form of expansion).
Anyway sony has proved very effective incorporating a hi-res screen, memsticks (i have two 128's for my digicam) mp3 and video support (even a low-res digital camera) into it's models all into OS 4.1 - though they're models are really ugly too, they make use of technology. i'd like to see what they make OS 5.
Plus, sony is going to be releasing their 1 GIG memorystick by the end of the year (probably just about the time their next line of PDAs comes out) and that's quote a few simpsons episodes and a few hours of music...
Anway, my 2 cents...
What are your thoughts?
RE: Too much palm hipe...
I don't go to McDonald's, order a hamburger, and then say "What is this crap? No porcelain plate? No wait staff? No lace doilies? No romaine lettuce?" The question isn't whether Zire is a good PDA for you, the question is whether it is a good PDA for the money.
And I like McDonald's very much.
RE: Too much palm hipe...
RE: Too much palm hipe...
RE: Too much palm hipe...
----------------------------------------
A few years ago at the Sony handheld Dept.:" That's the most stupid name ever. Who would want to buy something called a 'Clie'? You must be out of your mind!"
RE: Too much palm hipe...
Good point. However, although some Joe Sixpack might realize this and buy a M105, my grandma may still think that "newest = best", or think that she doesn't need expansion anyway, and get a Zire instead.
Especially if Zire is selling at <$80...
Also, the supply of M105 is limited, maybe it'll be completely out in 4-6 months... (there are just too many m10x series in the store rooms)
RE: Too much palm hipe...
Higgy
My next purhcase will be sony....most likely.......
I thought that Sony flunked the buttons on the T-series, but that's just the buttons. Palm flunked form factor overall and I would issue a warning to Palm that if they come out with this ugly device, you will not be able to survive in 3 years (since the form factor for palm usually retains longer ---V series to M)
RE: Too much palm hipe...
RE: Too much palm hipe...
After a slow start, Sony cranked up the capacity of the sticks and lowered the price, but now it appears they've pulled a Smartmedia and hit the wall.
I think they are going to try to ride out the year with their max 128 meg capacity and ten try and push everyone over to the new MS Duo format (remember, Duos can fit in an existing MS slot with the adaptor). I also forsee Sony/Ericsson making a strong push with Duo slots in next year's phones.
MemoryStick is a loser
In contrast, you can already get 512Mbyte MMC/SD cards, there are many vendors, and plenty of readers. It is clearly the standard on handhelds. And there are CF adapters for it.
Bluetooth & Expansion in Tungsten?
There's no reason to assume that it won't have an SD slot, though.
Jon Acheson
"All opinions posted are my own, and not those of my employers, who are appalled."
RE: Bluetooth & Expansion in Tungsten?
I've added this to the article to make sure you aren't the only one who doesn't remember this from earlier articles. It is pretty important; I should have included it in this one already.
---
News Editor
Thanks, & One Idea for SD & Games
It's good to know that the expansion will be there. I couldn't remember if the source on Bluetooth was credible or not, but if it's the same source, we're good.
Here's one thought about that SD card slot. Since Tungsten seems set up to play games, couldn't someone come out with an SD card that contained not only memory, but some kind of game-related hardware acceleration? Basic 3d, or even just better sprite handling?
This would give you better games, AND make them tied to the card. That would be a really useful form of copy protection.
Jon Acheson
"All opinions posted are my own, and not those of my employers, who are appalled."
RE: Bluetooth & Expansion in Tungsten?
Also, i am sure fab costs,size, and power consumption play a role as well (primarily cost).
Now, if anyone remembers back to the old Nintendo and SNES days, nintendo had some sort of gimmicky technology for certain 8-bit NES carts that somehow increased a game's color palette and enabled better music and digitized sound. For the SNES they had some sort of add on chip they called the FX (i think that was the name). It was used on Starfox and on a motorbike racing game to add very basic unfilled polygon acceleration. We're talking sub-S3Virge 3d capbilities but at least it was _something_. Sega also added a dedicated z80 processor to their Virtua Racing cart, back in the later years of the Genesis. The cart was bigger and much more expensive but it did do some nice 3d.
If anything, I'd see Sony partnering with ATI and adding some sort of graphics acceleration into their 2nd gen of OS5 handhelds, maybe mid/late 2003 or so. They already have a nice relationship with ATI to supply some of their desktop and notebooks with graphic cores so this would flesh out their lineup nicely.
I think that for now, it's be nice just to see more games sold at retail pre-loaded onto an SD card to free up precious RAM space (*cough, Rayman, cough*, especially since OS5 units are rumored to only still have 16 megs of ram. Also, having a game bundle/compilation that utilizes the majority of a MMC's capacity would be nice. You really feel ripped off when you look at how much free space is on the Palm Game MMC Card that is totally unusable!
Anyone have an idea about tghe Size?
If it's any thicker than a Sony T665 then that would be very disappointing.
RE: Anyone have an idea about tghe Size?
RE: Anyone have an idea about tghe Size?
Note, the .75 inch thickness is very approximate. No one I've talked to has taken a measuring tape to one. What I'm hearing is "A bit thicker than a m515, but not anywhere close to an inch thick" and approximate descriptions like that.
---
News Editor
Voice Recognition ...
RE: Voice Recognition
RE: Voice Recognition ...
Really? I'd never have guessed (sarcasm ;)
Actually, I was point out that the new model is rumoured to have a mic, which make Voice Recognition a possibility. However, as you pointed out, VR is barely adequate on a highend PC, but picture this ...
VoIP (much lower CPU resource requirements), but higher bandwidth needs. VoIP connection to a backend server running VXML, VXML then doing BASIC Voice Recognition, and sending the result back to the PDA for use. This would off load the processing to a beefier box, but limit the functionality of voice recognition. VXML can take incoming text, and process it out as soundex phonomes > which might then be able to be matched with names, addresses commands, etc.
All very shakey, but the technology IS catching up.
RE: Voice Recognition ...
Unless you expect a full implementation of VR to replace grafitti or keyboards. *That* is really a few years off...
RE: VoIP
this could give you very cheap long distance phone calls.
And for the operators the ability to transmit many calls over the same "pipe"
RE: Voice Recognition ...
Zire/Tungsten brands - What will be the company name?
Reasoning: Once they are separate what happens if Palm and Palmsource both want to offer internet connections or application software? Major trademark issues! Product names and corporate names are both trademark protected. Most people seem to forget that after they are externally separate they will be as separate as Microsoft and Dell, both of witch will aggressively protect their trademarks. It seems that they have been considering these things closely so I do not think that this is the end of the story, I think it is just PART of the story. I believe that one of the companies (probably Palm Solutions) will drop the name Palm completely or just use it as a "holding name" in order to avoid litigation, keep all product lines legally available and have complete control over their brand identity. So the questions is... what will the hardware company name be?
RE: Zire/Tungsten brands - What will be the company name?
GE and GE Capital - both have GE in the name, both are traded.
Shell and Shell Transport and Trading - both owned by Royal Dutch Shell, both traded publicly.
Pacific Bell, Bell Atlantic, and all the other "Baby Bells" - seperate companies, Bell still in their name.
Nothing wrong with having the Palm Tungsten or the Palm Zire (ala Sony Clie PEGxxx, Handsping Visor Deluxe,
My thoughts. YVMV (and probably will)
Token.
RE: Zire/Tungsten brands - What will be the company name?
Seems to me that Palm already doesn't equal PalmSource.
-Kevin Crossman
RE: Zire/Tungsten brands - What will be the company name?
RE: Zire/Tungsten brands - What will be the company name?
----Am I missing something or hasn't the "software" group already changed their name -- to PalmSource?
Seems to me that Palm already doesn't equal PalmSource.----
Here is a good example...
Remember the "Palm Pilot"? Palm was forced to drop the name Pilot because of the Pilot trademark owned by Pilot Pen. It is same problem. Everyone seems to forget that once Palmsource is spun-off they will not be owned by the same company and one of those companies will own the Palm trademark.
That company cannot allow their trademark to be dilluted or confused otherwise they risk losing the mark. Even if they licensed the mark for certain products the trademark owner has the ultimite right to decide if another company can release competing products. I think that they are slowly leaking naming information to get users acclimated to a new "brand" after the spin-off is completed.
RE: Zire/Tungsten brands - What will be the company name?
RE: Zire/Tungsten brands - What will be the company name?
RE: Zire/Tungsten brands - What will be the company name?
If someone asked you to buy an electronic organizer for $200, you would tell them where to go.
However, if they said, "palm pilot", that would be a different story altogether.
PIC users would know what a "Zire" is, but Joe Average, and his mate Joe Six-Pack, wouldn't have a clue.
It would put Palm bankrupt. Anyway, both are stupid names. But, methinks hardware would keep the name, as brand recognition in the actual units is more important.
Things that make you go Hmmm...
Name-Game
RE: Zire/Tungsten brands - What will be the company name?
RE: Zire/Tungsten brands - What will be the company name?
[[[[There will be no trademark infringement because Palm will license its mark to Palmsource for a fee while still pursuing other companies without a license to use the mark for infringement. It's as easy as that.]]]
What you wrote certainly makes sense from a pragmatic standpoint however it does not hold up from a legal standpoint. Palmsource would be the corporate name of a separately owned company that produced the Palm OS and Palm software, ebooks et. If they were to get a license from "the other Palm" then Palmsource would be partialy controled by Palm. They would have to ask Palm before releasing new products and Palm could veto the products if they wanted to. This may work for a product but it would not work for an entire company. If Palm were to give them a "naked" license that allowed Palmsource to do whatever they wanted with their name then they would no longer be controling the "quality" of the mark and could not control confusion and dillution issues and could therefore lose the mark. If you own a mark you must insure that customer confustion does not occur, the customer must know who they are buying the product from. A Palm Tungsten T from Palm, Powered by Palmsource, reading ebooks from Palmsource and running applications from Palm and so on - well I think you get the picture. They can certainly go ahead and do this however they will lose their mark and therefore any company will be able to use the term "palm" to decribe their computers as Microsoft tried to do a couple of years ago with their Palm PC.
Zire Better be $50...
OTOH - if the device is priced at only $50 only then do I feel you're really catering to the folks who are unlikely to ever install third party aps. Those folks won't be affected by this problem.
Palm would be making a big mistake to price this much more than $50. Listen to us Palm!!!
-Kevin Crossman
RE: Zire Better be $50...
RE: Zire Better be $50...
RE: Zire Better be $50...
A down-market approach by Palm would be: Zire - cheap and simple, if you want something else / better - go for the m130, m5xx or Tungsten.
RE: Zire Better be $50...
In any event, I am a relatively advanced Palm user (FAR more advanced than the Zire's apparent audience), and although I rely on all four buttons for convenience, I don't think that any program I use would be "crippled" by losing two of the buttons. (Except for some games... I rarely play button-based games though.) I primarily use the buttons as application switchers, and I can do that (less conveniently) with only two buttons as well.
And the people who buy Zire will not be installing complex relational database applications. A small handful of them might install a recipe tracker, or a football schedule. We're not talking about power users here.
RE: Zire Better be $50...
RE: Zire Better be $50...
> might not work.
This makes no sense. AvantGo requires no buttons at all.
You are putting too much importance on the buttons or lack there of. Can anyone name a application that requires buttons and is not an action game? I can't.
Tungsten Form Factor
I saw a Vx in a store just today and that thing still looks cool.
RE: Tungsten Form Factor
What disappoints me is the disappearing graffiti area, as opposed to a virtual graffiti area. It just seems silly. Virtual graffiti means more screen area, and that's HUGE--just ask anyone who's used an NR-70 or even a Handera 330. Covering the graffiti to go to the 320x320 square is lame.
RE: Tungsten Form Factor
Seriously I could get a hi-res, mp3 playing, 128mb (I already have 2 mem sticks) Clie (Which by the way, I really like the name =)), for the same price as a low-res, no mp3, 16 mb (with no expansion) m515 but I'd **much** rather have a m515 just cause they look sexy. I bet clie owners get a lot less "wow that looks cool"'s than m5** owners.
What I don't like about the whole graffiti scandle is that everyone is trying to replace it. The Treo, the NR70, I --love--- the graffiti system, I don't want to have to jump around all over on a keyboard or a thumb-type board. If I wanted one of those I'd go by the latest Sharp organized thats 7 inches wide and 4 inches tall with a 3x1 inch b/w screen.
Form -- Form -- Form!
Cell phone manufactures have learned this -- at least I think they have.
Mike Lohsl
Palm & ACT! Advisor
[I]Proud user of a Palm i705 Mobile Office and Kyocera 6035 phone[/I]
Palm's advantage over Sony
If I buy a Hires OS5 $400-$500+ PDA I'd like it to be upgraded to PalmOS 6 when it'll be available.
So far Sony provided this only once (N710-N760 OS3.5-4.1) But Palm does it (you can upgrade you Palm III OS 3.3 to OS 4.1) for a cost.
That would be my best choice provided that Palm's PDA match Sony's one technically.
Fred
don't bet on it
RE: Palm's advantage over Sony
hires and codenames
personally i think "tungsten" and "zire" are codenames, just as all the other devices have codenames like that: Tornado (Palm m500), Skywalker (Palm i705), Razor (Palm V). but that doesnt matter anyway. what matters is that i cant await the first os5 device to be released.
Markus Dresch (www.palmside.com)
Wrong Names !!
I will bet real money on this.
RE: hires and codenames
RE: hires and codenames
RE: hires and codenames
Zire will be the new entry level design, it's code name is cub.
*Yawn*
Form factor is, well, kind of stupid.
Sliding graffiti cover is also stupid.
Hi-res screen--been there, done that.
D-pad...OK, maybe, but PPC's have had these for awhile.
mp3--been there, done that.
voice recording...score one for Palm.
Bluetooth...maybe, but only if it's relatively inexpensive (i.e., no more than $500).
I'm not sure I can get excited about a PDA that's really only giving me voice recording and bluetooth, but nothing else I can't already get.
RE: *Yawn*
--------------------
PDA Master
Oslo is ugly, please don't release it.
People in this forum have been talking about virtual graffiti and thinness. I don't remember anybody say anything about sliding area and thick. Therefore please try to get the size about the same but expand on possibilities with virtual graffiti and/bluetooth built in.
RE: Oslo is ugly, please don't release it.
__________________________________________________________________
My palm III was 50p from a charity shop, and introduced me to pdas
Things that make you go Hmmm...
Name-Game
More Info on The PRICE
--------------------
PDA Master
RE: More Info on The PRICE
RE: More Info on The PRICE
I can't wait until october!!
RE: Tungsten Coming Late October!
dutchbenendez@aol.com
I just hope....
So I hope Palm will be using the same design and build quality that was used with the m500/v series. My buddies clie got a bit broken after he sat on it.(dunno if that is always the case mind.)
> joe
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Zire Huh...