Comments on: New PalmSource Licensees Expected Soon

PalmSource CEO David Nagel mentioned the company will announce two new Palm OS licensees. The announcement will more than likely happen during the PalmSource Developer Conference, which begins Tuesday. Nagel also mentions a new secure client OS architecture and that he expects PalmSource to become profitable by June.
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Don't you just love the internet?

Scott R @ 5/2/2003 3:13:43 PM #
I checked out the TapWave web site. Judging by the name of the company and their tag line "go. do. play." they seem to be working on some sort of wireless (wave) touch-screen (tap) gaming (play) device. After searching Google I found a little bit of commentary written by Mitzi McGilvray (the "Executive Producer" at TapWave) on the igda (International Game Developers Assocation) site. I also found a reference somewhere stating that Mr. Lim also serves on the board of directors of InViso. So, I did a quick search for InViso and found out that they produced some Sony glasstron-like goggles at the beginning of 2001. That was about 5 minutes work. So, who knows. Maybe this device will hook into a head-mount display as well?

Scott

RE: Don't you just love the internet?
Scott R @ 5/2/2003 3:53:12 PM #
Oh, apparently there's some interesting stuff still tucked away at the TapWave site. Look here:
http://www.tapwave.com/leadership.htm

The leadership team all worked at Palm. Is this another Handspring situation where someone had a great idea and pulled some folks with him or do you think Palm itself may have encouraged some folks to split off and start this? Here's another crazy thought: Could this company have been that secret investor a while back? Of course, they don't seem to produce anything yet, so I don't see how they'd be able to spend that kind of money.

Be sure and click on the "Advisors" tab as well. Good stuff there.

Scott

RE: Don't you just love the internet?
hoodoo @ 5/2/2003 4:28:46 PM #
[i]""Steve Crane – Developer Program Advisor

Steve Crane is a veteran of the video game industry, having spent the last ten years working for Electronic Arts, Knowledge Adventure, Activision, and, most recently, Midway. At Electronic Arts, he was the manager of The Sims franchise, the best-selling PC game of all time. At Activision, he built the company's console game division and created such top franchises as Tony Hawk's Pro Skater and Spiderman. He currently runs Midway's San Diego production studio as well as the company's third-party development division.
Steve has a doctorate in oceanography from U.C. San Diego, and he spent the early part of his career designing computer graphics systems for professional video production and animation. A real-time video special effects system he worked on was awarded an Emmy for technical achievement in 1990.""[/i]

I like that this guy has a Doctorate in Oceanography, of all things, lol.

Otherwise, pretty interesting background for that crew & advisors



RE: Don't you just love the internet?
Fammy @ 5/2/2003 4:36:01 PM #
Good find.
"Go" could mean portable, or even wireless.
"Do" sounds like traditional PIM functions.
"Play" sounds like more entertainment focused functions.

My guess would be a (wireless) PDA focused on gaming. Maybe a real joytick and useable buttons for gaming! Let's throw in MP3/audio too.

Speculation is fun!

_____
Fammy

RE: Don't you just love the internet?
Timothy Rapson @ 5/2/2003 5:22:00 PM #
I still believe that the secret investor in Palm from a couple of years back was Texas Instruments. It was at almost the same time that Palm said they would select TI as the preferred ARM processor supplier for their first OS 5 models.

The deal did not exactly say that someone gave Palm or lent Palm $50 million. What I believe happened is that TI extended to Palm a $50 million line of credit that they could use only to buy TI processors. Perhaps TI was given stock options or something as part of the deal. But, that is what I think the "loan" was. It mostly let Palm take $50 million off the debt side of the ledger while they were assembling the parts for the new OS 5 models. Otherwise they would have had to pay Intel cash on delivery for ARM processors.

Just my idea and as time goes on I see nothing contradicting it, but I would have thought by now it would have been confirmed publicly. I expect that TI's other customers would have demanded the same sweetheart deal if they found out, so it had to be kept secret.

I guess this is not germain to the case at hand, but I never miss a chance to bring it up since I get predictions right so rarely.

RE: Don't you just love the internet?
mikecane @ 5/2/2003 7:02:15 PM #
I still say it was Larry Ellison, but your speculation sounds much more plausible. Congratulations. Here's a fish.

RE: Don't you just love the internet?
xtremist5150 @ 5/5/2003 2:44:09 PM #
Of interest (from Reuters.com):

"Ex-Palm Officials Offer Portable Video Game System

By Ben Berkowitz

LOS ANGELES (Reuters) - A company started by former senior executives from handheld computer maker Palm Inc. (PALM) on Monday unveiled a handheld product code-named "Helix" that combines video gaming, music and the organizer from the Palm operating system.

The company, named Tapwave, was founded two years ago by former Palm vice president of worldwide product development Peng Lim and vice president of product management Byron Connell.

It plans to enter a marketplace -- portable video gaming -- that in the last few months has ballooned.

Lim serves as president and chief executive of Tapwave, while Connell is senior vice president of marketing. Other top executives are Marian Cauwet, the vice president of engineering who held the same role at Palm; and sales head David Wenning, also a Palm veteran.

Pricing and availability details for the Helix have not yet been made public, but what is known is that the company boasts a high-profile lineup of hardware and software partners.

Among the hardware companies contributing products and engineering to Helix are ATI Technologies Inc. (ATY), Sony Corp. (6758), Motorola Inc. (MOT) and Yamaha Corp. (7951)

Games publishers who have already agreed to license some of their top titles for the platform include Activision Inc. (ATVI), Infogrames Inc. (IFGM) and Midway Games Inc. (MWY).

The company has also licensed the PalmOS operating system from Palm subsidiary PalmSource and game development tools from Fathammer.

Market research firms have pegged total video game hardware and software sales at $10.4 billion in 2002 in the United States alone, and global hardware and software sales in 2003 are expected to top $30 billion.

'MORE SOPHISTICATED GAMER'

"Nobody was addressing the need of the more sophisticated gamer in a mobile sense," Connell told Reuters recently.

Connell and Lim said the target audience for the Helix consists of people 18 years to 34 years old who have largely "graduated" from Nintendo Co. Ltd.'s (7974) Game Boy Advance portable gaming unit.

The Game Boy platform has had a stranglehold on the portable gaming market for well over a decade, handily defeating any and all comers, including long-gone devices with names like GameGear, TurboDuo and Lynx.

But the portable market has become increasingly crowded again. Nintendo is selling two Game Boys, the Advance and the Advance SP, and Finnish cell phone maker Nokia is preparing to launch a cell phone and game deck combination device called the N-Gage.

The Tapwave executives hope to compete with those two units on the basis of superior technology.

The Helix boasts twice the color palate of the Game Boy and nearly 16 times that of the N-Gage. It offers a screen resolution well sharper than either one and a much larger screen size.

Connell said the device will play full-motion video in a number of formats, as well as music in the MP3 format. It will also ship with a photo viewer and all the productivity applications that are part of the Palm OS.

? Reuters 2003. All rights reserved. Republication or redistribution of Reuters content, including by caching, framing or similar means, is expressly prohibited without the prior written consent of Reuters. Reuters and the Reuters sphere logo are registered trademarks and trademarks of the Reuters group of companies around the world."


RE: Don't you just love the internet?
BlueAnon @ 5/5/2003 2:58:30 PM #
If Tapwave is really stupid enough going to create a Palm base "portable gaming" gadget.

I think the game is over before it even starts for 2 reasons:

1.GBA. (good luck playing on the same playing field with Ninetendo)
2.freebies emulators. (Assuming they plan to offer something more advance then GAB, that mean their hardware will go at least for $150-180. And they will crash head on against PDA models like $199 Dell X5 with such gaming title like SImcity2k, Age of empire, and all other big franchise)

well that was quick.

RE: Don't you just love the internet?
RhinoSteve @ 5/5/2003 3:33:15 PM #
Nope, they are on to something.

The biggest problem with the Dell unit is that it is running Pocket PC. That immedately removes them from 70% of the mobile market to start. Also, most companies like Nintendo and Dell are so damn cheap, they keep out that $5 of components that makes a great gaming system.

In my opinion, TapWave has a good start and just needs to work on the right publishing deals for titles. I can see them doing real well in the Christmas market for the Gen-Y yuppies.
RE: Don't you just love the internet?
Fammy @ 5/5/2003 4:07:30 PM #
This sounds like what I was hoping for (I hope ;)

Taking on the GBA will be a hard task. The GBA does what it does well: play games. This unit tries to blur the line: do I play games or am I a PIM? (obviously both). As long as it does all well (unlike the N-Gage, which looks terrible) I think it will work.

Here's hoping for Bluetooth for some fun multiplayer gaming!

_____
Fammy

RE: Don't you just love the internet?
Fammy @ 5/5/2003 4:16:18 PM #
Another thought: Tapwave will likely go with virtual grafitti. A square screen or a screen with grafitti area would look silly for a game machine. I hope it has a similar for factor to the GBA (widescreen, not tall).

_____
Fammy
RE: Don't you just love the internet?
HandyMan @ 5/5/2003 5:16:51 PM #
I hope they realized that having the best technology isn't enough. The original GameBoy killed the competition even though everybody else was more advanced features (colour, fast CPU etc...)


RE: Don't you just love the internet?
Scott R @ 5/5/2003 10:04:07 PM #
"I hope they realized that having the best technology isn't enough. The original GameBoy killed the competition even though everybody else was more advanced features (colour, fast CPU etc...)"

Good point and it helps to show the flaw in BlueAnon's logic above. It's all about the zen, baby. ;) Specs don't win out, you need the whole package. A Dell Axim may very well do a little bit more and do it at a better price than this device, but it certainly sounds like this device will have a better form-factor for gaming. This has been my biggest complaint about the whole "gaming" concept of both PPCs and Palms. No licensee for either platform has offered a device that is comfortable to hold/use for gaming. This simple (and painfully obvious, IMO) "feature" could make all the difference in the world.

On a separate note, when the rumors of the sub-$100 Palm were coming out, I predicted that if Palm was smart it would still have an SD slot because this is an extra source of revenue for them (a lot of people would buy Palm-branded SD games, software, and even blank cards because they don't know any better). Well, they didn't know any better apparently. This device here looks to follow this idea using what every game system company already knows to be true: You make money on the razorblades, not the razors. This could be good news for us consumers, too, because I anticipate that this device could be priced nicely.

Scott

more memory

arielb @ 5/2/2003 3:14:39 PM #
What palmsource needs to do is capitalize on the new 128 meg capacity of PalmOS. For the first time we now have a PalmOS device with 64 megs and 400 mhz ARM. Pocketpc's had this for awhile and made fun of Palms with only 16 megs. But if a PalmOS device can come up with 128 megs that would give Palm a hardware advantage for the first time. Hardware companies want to deliver devices with the most technology they can. Remove the hardware limitations and you'll see more companies using PalmOS.

RE: more memory
twizza @ 5/2/2003 4:16:14 PM #
Before someone else writes here that you are just flaming, I would like to know as to what you mean when you say that Palm shoudl capatilize on 128MB of RAM. As most of us do understand, the PalmOS is more efficient and smaller than WinCE. Granted, there is never a such thing as too much memory, with PalmOS handhelds, they have been extremly efficient with memory/storage and memory/program execution space. Could you clarify what it is that you mean so that we can have a shared understanding here? Thanks.

RE: more memory
ardiri @ 5/2/2003 4:35:03 PM #
>> What palmsource needs to do is capitalize on the new 128 meg capacity of PalmOS

typical. palm gives 64Mb of memory in the Tungsten|C, and, someone wants more. isn't that typical? :)

// az
aaron@ardiri.com
http://www.ardiri.com/
http://www.mobilewizardry.com/

RE: more memory
skennedy1217 @ 5/2/2003 4:37:45 PM #
I want more onboard memory for programs and file storage. For example, I can only take about 5 pics with my Veo camera before I have to manually move them. And although Palm applications tend to be smaller, there are more things that I want on my Palm than will fit on it and my 128 MB SD card. Sure, I could buy a bigger card, but the price of a high capacity card is more than the cost of the handheld. Plus, don't some apps run better off of RAM than a memory card? I'd rather use my cards to store MP3's, JPGs, dB files and leave the apps on the main memory.

_____________________
m100 ==> m500 ==> T|T
RE: more memory
arielb @ 5/2/2003 4:38:01 PM #
My point is not that there is a pressing consumer need for more memory. It's that the hardware companies that need to be able to say "we have 64 megs" in order to sell PalmOS devices. There is no way Palm and Sony can sell $500 Palms with 16 megs and there is no way you can get Toshiba and Dell to switch to PalmOS unless Palmsource can show them that PalmOS can support more -not less- technology than PPC. And the corporations are looking at the spec sheets to make their decisions. That's just the way it is but in the end we'll see more powerful Palms at a cheaper price and that's a good thing I think.

RE: more memory
Token User @ 5/2/2003 5:15:43 PM #
Palmsource provides the tools and the enabling OS ... it is up to the licencees to capitalise on the capabilities (such as more RAM).

~ "Don't be too proud of this technological terror you've constructed." - DV ~
RE: more memory
mikecane @ 5/2/2003 7:03:09 PM #
*sigh* Even if Palm SG offered a 128MB PDA, that would only be *catching up* with PPC -- the GENIO GD (PXA255) in Japan has had 128MB for two months. And there was a GENIO model (PXA250) before that with 128MB too.

Let's have a model with a multiGB hard drive built-in. Now *that* would be something. Hmmmm... the iPalm (copyright by and trademark of Mike Cane -- heh heh).

RE: more memory
arielb @ 5/3/2003 9:07:59 PM #
it wouldn't be too terrible to catch up to something that's only available in Japan for 2 months. Remember that Palm's biggest challenge is corporate and the main competitor is HP. They have to focus on the ipaq and they have finally matched it with the T|C. Having said that, it is not enough to match it-they have to beat it. A hard drive sounds nice though I am sure it sucks batteries dry. They may also want to switch to USB 2 and who knows maybe a 3D hardware acceleration chip. But for some reason the T|C doesn't have Bluetooth or even stereo so they need to get those things first.

RE: more memory
JKingGrim @ 5/4/2003 12:45:38 AM #
I do not want to see 128mb internal storage until POS has a real file system. When that happens, keep the MBs comming!

RE: more memory
Lungboy @ 5/4/2003 12:04:10 PM #
PDA's have moved from a coporate item to a retail item. And retail consumers buy based on spec. That's one of the reasons Mac didn't take over the market despite having superior technology (and note I said "one of the reasons", not trying to start a Mac vs. PC debate here)

For someone who doesn't know the internal workings of Palms, would naturally assume a 64 meg device is better than a 16 meg device.

It's become a hardware game and that is a game that Sony plays very well. This next year is going to be fun!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Eagles may soar but at least weasles don't get sucked into jet engines.

RE: more memory
mikecane @ 5/4/2003 3:26:14 PM #
>>A hard drive sounds nice though I am sure it sucks batteries dry.

Hello! How frigging long does the drive spin to dump a multi-MB song from itself to the iPod's RAM? This is not read-off-the-Microdrive-and-kill-the-batteries PPC-like stuff I'm talking about. It's spin-up, read, dump, spin down. It CAN be done -- especially with the 1500 mAh batteries Palm SG is using. Or the ones Sony is using in the NZ.

RE: more memory
Bartman007 @ 5/5/2003 1:41:49 AM #
I too would love more RAM, but the problem I see is this:
With larger storage space comes more bloatware and less-efficent code. One of the reasons that Palm applications have remain so small is there has been relatively little processing power/space to work with. As I said before I am being totally hypocritical. I just ordered a Tungsten T to replace my flashed N710C, (I wanted a Tungsten C but don't have enough $$$) I think that I am going to fill those 16, well, 11 megs pretty quickly.

Peace,
-Bartman007

P.S. I will probably be submitting my N710C to the Palm Graveyard soon. I have had serial port trouble for a while, but discovered I could fix it by taking the case apart and repositioning the serial port. I was doing it at school and was bumped by someone. It ripped the connector on the PCB off. To make a long story short the repairation totally screwed it up. Once my TT arrives I will take my Clie off life support by disconnecting the battery.

P.P.S. If anyone wants to send condolences to my Clie, I will supply you with an appropriate paypal address. =)

RE: more memory
I.M. Notorious @ 5/5/2003 9:43:52 AM #
To those hoping for a big-time player as the new licensee (as Dell): Not going to happen...

Sorry, kid, but PalmSource has a completely different license policy. Instead of using the Microsoft approach (get as many manufactures as possible and let Darwin get its way), PalmSource actually chooses its licensees. Such is so that PalmSource turn Toshiba down (yes, you read it right: friggin' TOSHIBA!!) fearing that would cannibalize the sales of the other licensees and PalmSG itself.

There is a very interesting (abeit short) article on Brighthand. Check it out:

http://www.brighthand.com/article/Licensing

It makes you wonder, thought, a Toshiba PalmOS device. The latest Genio without MS bloated OS: 128MB, Xscale PXA255, WiFi, Bluetooth, SD and CF external media, etc. One thing for sure: it would be king among corporate handhelds!!

I.M. Notorious

"Naturally, the common people don't want war, but after all, it is the leaders of a country who determine the policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag people along wheter it is a democracy, or a facist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be broughtto the bidding of the leaders. This is easy. All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in every country."

Hermann Goëring. Hitler's Reich-Marshall
at the nuremberg Trials after WWII

RE: more memory
TobyG @ 5/5/2003 10:01:38 AM #
FWIW, the T|T has 14MB avaialable to the user. It's the Sony OS5s that have only 11MB available.

RE: more memory
mikecane @ 5/5/2003 10:40:39 AM #
Toshiba was turned down at least *three* years ago. If Toshiba came to them today, I doubt they would say no. But I don't think Toshiba will come back; they are selling lotsa units (not the 550g, but the e3xx and e7xx) and have PPC WiFi in their sights. (And that's "sights," not "sites.")

Matsushita -- aka Panasonic -- hasn't entered the PDA market. And now probably never will because they have this:

http://tinyurl.com/b03r

Photos:

http://tinyurl.com/azoz

http://tinyurl.com/azp1


RE: more memory
JKingGrim @ 5/5/2003 2:36:50 PM #
>>>>A hard drive sounds nice though I am sure it sucks batteries dry.

>>Hello! How frigging long does the drive spin to dump a multi-MB song from itself to the iPod's RAM? This is not read-off-the-Microdrive-and-kill-the-batteries PPC-like stuff I'm talking about. It's spin-up, read, dump, spin down. It CAN be done -- especially with the 1500 mAh batteries Palm SG is using. Or the ones Sony is using in the NZ.


Great! Then my Palm turns into a PPC. No more execute-in-place. Say bye bye to Palm OS Efficiency.

RE: more memory
Bartman007 @ 5/5/2003 4:29:47 PM #

TobyG:
> FWIW, the T|T has 14MB avaialable to the user. It's the Sony OS5s that have only 11MB available.

WOOHOO!!! Three more megs =) That makes me quite happy. I just wish the stupid thing would arrive.

Peace,
-Bartman007


OS6 and file structure

new505user @ 5/2/2003 3:31:39 PM #
It seems developers often complain about limitations in the way Palm uses databases rather than files. I won't pretend to fully understand this but it's my understanding that it's core to the OS and both advantageous in some ways (something about executing in place) and disadvantageous in others. Is this something that will change with OS6? Is this a good or bad thing?

RE: OS6 and file structure
abosco @ 5/2/2003 4:44:10 PM #
*Supposedly* there will be an internal file system in Palm OS 6.

-Bosco
Proud Member of the Top Non-Mods
Members: abosco and ImpReza M3
Now accepting new applications
RE: OS6 and file structure
bcombee @ 5/2/2003 6:19:53 PM #
There already is a "mock" filesystem in Palm OS 3 and later. The FileOpen/Read/Write/Close APIs are implemented on top of the database schemes and allow creating stream DBs that act like files. These files still have creator codes, but otherwise act a lot like files on a disk. This mechanism is used internally by the Exchange Manager to handle beamed objects -- a PRC file beamed to the device first gets stored in a temporary file stream, then gets assembled into the proper resource database format by other code.

--
Ben Combee, CodeWarrior for Palm OS technical lead
Programming help at www.palmoswerks.com
RE: OS6 and file structure
new505user @ 5/2/2003 6:38:44 PM #
Is this rumored to change with OS6? Why would that be a good thing thanks

RE: OS6 and file structure
enjolras @ 5/3/2003 12:44:27 AM #
Don't count on a fundamental change. I think Palm (rightly so) really likes this idea of application managed data. One of the biggest problem tasks we have in the desktop world is that our interaction with the computer is driven by file management, as opposed to application management. The Palm turns this on its head, and I think it greatly simplifies the operation of things. Combine that with the really powerful exchange manager, and there isn't a lot of incentive to change.

The once place where this doesn't neccesarily hold up is when dealing with cards. We already have the VFS Manager, and what I EXPECT to see is some of those VFS concepts abstracted into RAM. A single, unified layer for the programmer to deal with application data.From the user perspective I don't think you'll see a lot change, however. I think the realities of mobile computing really reward application centric computing..

It shouldn't be surprising that there a lot of people tha think this concept should be applied on the desktop as well. There are several companies wanting to replace your existing file system with one that puts your apps first, and makes them responsible for managing their own data... which should sound familiar.

RE: OS6 and file structure
ganoe @ 5/4/2003 2:10:01 PM #
> Don't count on a fundamental change. I think Palm (rightly so) really
> likes this idea of application managed data. One of the biggest problem
> tasks we have in the desktop world is that our interaction with
> the computer is driven by file management, as opposed to application management.

I think "rightly so" for some apps and "not so rightly so" for plenty of others. There are a lot of different ways one could offer both appropriately for many applications, but you are correct, PalmSource is not advocating that approach and essentially said as much in their most recent regular developer e-mail.

As card sizes and CPU power increases, I fully expect to dump most of my files to card and move that card or cards between PC and PDA (physically and/or through wired/wireless means). I expect not to have to worry about syncronizing or worrying about file formats and also being in full control on my PDA of where my files get put. I don't want my PDA wasting power searching through thousands of files just to figure out that only one or two actually go with the app I'm currently using, or conversely displaying a thousand to choose from when I know darn well where I put it. A one-dimensional set of "categories" only goes so far for organizing data as the volume of info increases.

PalmSource should be providing good examples of some of the main ways people might want to do things, instead of dumping everything into Palm databases on card and expecting people to be happy with it. Just saying that apps can magically manage their own data, especially once you get past a few dozen pieces of it, is a fallacy.

RE: OS6 and file structure
mj6798 @ 5/5/2003 4:02:54 AM #
"It shouldn't be surprising that there a lot of people tha think this concept should be applied on the desktop as well. There are several companies wanting to replace your existing file system with one that puts your apps first, and makes them responsible for managing their own data... which should sound familiar."

Yeah, but that's a stupid argument. Most desktop applications that need to are already using databases. But many other applications need files; Palm-style databases just won't do.

RE: OS6 and file structure
mikecane @ 5/5/2003 6:55:25 AM #
>>It shouldn't be surprising that there a lot of people tha think this concept should be applied on the desktop as well. There are several companies wanting to replace your existing file system with one that puts your apps first, and makes them responsible for managing their own data... which should sound familiar.

-- well, duh. They got this from APPLE.

And as for dealing with "thousands of files," so "let the app do it" -- hello! What happens when there are THOUSANDS OF FILES for just ONE APP. As in my case. I have over a thousand (approaching 2K) DOC files in SmartDOC. Do you know what an effing pain THAT is?! No subfolders, no subsubfolders? One LOOOOOONNNNNNNGGGGG frigging list? (Yeah, yeah, so I have *15* categories -- which is NOTHING. And since the ENTIRE "DIR" is loaded when SmartDoc is launched, I get this nice WAIT! I'd rather have it pointing to *one* folder that just has the DOCs I need *now*.)

RE: OS6 and file structure
RhinoSteve @ 5/5/2003 7:36:23 AM #
>As in my case. I have over a thousand (approaching 2K) DOC files in SmartDOC.

Why???

RE: OS6 and file structure
mikecane @ 5/5/2003 9:20:25 AM #
Because what other freaking widely-used large filetype *is* there for PalmOS?! I'm supposed to have a JILLION 4K-sized pieces in Memo Pad? And why shouldn't I have that many DOCs?! Don't the rest of you *use* these things?! (It cracks me up, the people who say, "Oh, I get a lot of use out of my Palm. I have *sixty* Memos! Nitwits -- I have *one-thousand eight hundred and one* -- and that's Memos, *not* DOCs.) So when I b*tch about shortcomings in the OS, it's because I damn well *use* it. An OS that would satisfy *me* would seem *miraculous* to everyday users.

RE: OS6 and file structure
enjolras @ 5/5/2003 12:03:09 PM #
Most desktop applications that need to are already using databases

I think your confused about what a Palm database really IS. It's a terrible naming convention, as a Palm Database is more or less a file broken up into discrete chunks. You can use records as a kind of delimiter, but a Palm Database has very little in common with relational databases of the desktop and server world.

This is a discussion about the storage of application data, not the physical structure of how it is stored or accessed. In that respect that type of data is irrelevant..


mikecane: Your talking completely about execution and nothing to do with the basic architecture.

The problem isn't in app-centric computing, it's in the Palms limitation on HOW the apps get to manage their own data. Right now we have a single layer of data management (categories). It would be nice to be able to give users more options in storing and cataloging files, I completley agree. A hierchal file system DOES give you more options, but I do not beleive that it represents the best choice. Why not maintain an app-first perspective of computing, while improving the ability of applications to manager their own data? Isn't that what you really want?

RE: OS6 and file structure
mikecane @ 5/5/2003 12:21:47 PM #
Whatever improves the current mess! And doesn't break the Zen of Palm. Well, not too much, that is... let's have an "Exit Zen" option for frustrated power users with say, over TWO THOUSAND files on their units...

RE: OS6 and file structure
drich @ 5/5/2003 12:33:30 PM #
I could be wrong on this, but my understanding is that Palm applications are "execute in place"; that is there is one copy of the application in memory which executes. As I understand it, PPC has a copy of the program in storage which must be copied to another location in memory from which it executes; this simulates loading from disk on the desktop. If I am right, it would seem that PPC requires almost twice as much memory per application. As for data storage, that could be handled a lot of ways and I find the various comments about the Palm "database" structure interesting.


Palm OS 6 - Core PIM applications

kevdo @ 5/2/2003 6:47:16 PM #
I honestly could care less about any other feature than an upgrade to the core PIM apps.

PalmSource -- you GOTTA upgrade these applications.

a) take advantage of higher res screens -- give us the option of smaller fonts to view more info
b) to do lists with reminders and recurring events (ala ToDo Plus)
c) Contacts listed in multiple categories
d) Memos and notes longer than 4k
e) Including attendee info when syncing with Outlook.

These apps even all these years are still so useful... just need to tweak them a little to make them so much better!

-Kevin Crossman

RE: Palm OS 6 - Core PIM applications
mikecane @ 5/2/2003 7:01:16 PM #
Color support in the bundled apps (beyond this Themes-only-we'll-design-for-you nonsense) and font and font attribute support!

RE: Palm OS 6 - Core PIM applications
Lokain @ 5/2/2003 8:54:03 PM #
DateBk5 standard would be a nice touch, for me anyways...

RE: Palm OS 6 - Core PIM applications
Gekko @ 5/3/2003 8:27:44 AM #
DateBk5 standard???? NO THANKS. I don't need that overbloated, overkill piece of garbage wasting space in my ROM. And yes, i have about 3,000 contacts.

RE: Palm OS 6 - Core PIM applications
mikecane @ 5/5/2003 6:59:26 AM #
I like the standard Palm apps but I'd like just some damned updating: font support, font attribute support, font color support. Why is that asking for so much?!

Oh yeah, and in DateBook, selectable and user-created ALARMS (ie, sounds).

Oh yeah two: break that damned 4K limit in MemoPad! Maybe 64K! (And give me the Goto Top/Bottom icons!)

don'tget too excited unless you see DELL

Gekko @ 5/2/2003 9:58:47 PM #
otherwise, fuggedoubouit

RE: don'tget too excited unless you see DELL
abosco @ 5/3/2003 12:11:17 PM #
If it's another "big licensee" like Fossil, I'm just going to cross my arms and pout like a fairy.

I'm hoping for Apple or Dell. Apple... I don't think so, but it'd be nice. Dell actually sounds reasonable. Right now, there's a war across platforms for the best mid-range device. If Dell can offer X5 specs in a thinner package and maybe $50 more with OS 5, and you've got a winner.

-Bosco
Proud Member of the Top Non-Mods
Members: abosco and ImpReza M3
Now accepting new applications

RE: don'tget too excited unless you see DELL
bcombee @ 5/3/2003 5:05:55 PM #
If you read Nagel's comment, he said "two new vertical market licensees". Neither Dell or Apple are vertical markets -- I wouldn't expect anyone that would just be making another general PDA-market handheld.

--
Ben Combee, CodeWarrior for Palm OS technical lead
Programming help at www.palmoswerks.com
RE: Dude...you're NOT gettin a Dell
Foo Fighter @ 5/4/2003 10:25:48 AM #
Sorry, but there is no way PalmSource will ever license its OS to Dell. They would compete with existing licensees such as Palm and Sony, and PalmSource is dead set against fratricide.

RE: don'tget too excited unless you see DELL
Gekko @ 5/4/2003 11:05:05 AM #
My prediction is that DELL will stick with PPC. PPC and Axim are selling like hotcakes. If it ain't broke, why try to fix it? Why overcomplicate things? Dell's customers appear to LIKE PPC. And PPC will just keep getting better while POS continues to stagnate. 4K Memo Limit? Native Security? Categories Limit? Is it 1997 or 2003?

RE: don'tget too excited unless you see DELL
Lungboy @ 5/4/2003 12:12:11 PM #
Yes, but Dell is a hardware hooker. It will jump into bed with anyone if the price is right. They leverage both AMD and Intel. Plus they still sell Palms. If Palms are still profitable, I can't see why they wouldn't sell both.

Dell never puts their eggs in one basket.

But I'm with the general thought here that Palmsource tends to overhype new licensees.

"Wow! A new dog collar powered by Palm"
*snore*

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Eagles may soar but at least weasles don't get sucked into jet engines.

RE: don'tget too excited unless you see DELL
Gekko @ 5/4/2003 12:24:43 PM #
>"(Dell) will jump into bed with anyone if the price is right."

False. It's not about price. Dell listens to CUSTOMERS and gives them what they want and are willing to pay for. Read the book "Direct From Dell" by Michael Dell.


RE: don'tget too excited unless you see DELL
ganoe @ 5/4/2003 2:08:19 PM #
> Dell listens to CUSTOMERS and gives them what they want

Then I'm surprised we didn't see the Axim with Palm OS in the first place.

RE: don'tget too excited unless you see DELL
BlueAnon @ 5/4/2003 2:43:28 PM #
How long do you think Palmsolution group will last if Dell enter with POS device?

6 months? 8 months? what Sony did to Handspring will look like a spring picnic compared to what Dell would do to Palm Inc gadget sale if Dell does POS.

RE: don'tget too excited unless you see DELL
ganoe @ 5/4/2003 3:02:49 PM #
> How long do you think Palmsolution group will last if Dell enter with POS device?

You mean if they actually allowed someone to produce a general-purpose, expandable Palm OS device? Instead of playing the current feature game? Well who knows, then Palm and Sony would be actually be forced to do the same.

> what Sony did to Handspring

I think you should actual check dates and device releases. It is amazing some of the things people attribute to Sony. Handspring dropped the general PDA market well before Sony had anything serious to offer.

RE: don'tget too excited unless you see DELL
Gekko @ 5/4/2003 3:13:05 PM #
I'll place my bets with Michael Dell and not the Palm gang.


RE: don'tget too excited unless you see DELL
RhinoSteve @ 5/4/2003 9:54:16 PM #
Well Michael Dell nor Microsoft has the money nor resources to win the PDA market. They are too set in their ways.

It is like Henry Ford after making his 1,000,000th Model-T all of a sudden decides to make motorcycles. Don't bet on it.

RE: don'tget too excited unless you see DELL
Foo Fighter @ 5/5/2003 2:28:08 PM #
> "Well Michael Dell nor Microsoft has the money nor resources to win the PDA market"

You have GOT to be joking? Microsoft and Dell don't have the resources? My God, Dell alone has the power to CRUSH Palm...if it were serious about the PDA market. This weak economy nearly drove Palm to the brink of death. Luckily, Dell and Microsoft are more concentrated on meat and potato markets like Desktop and Server hardware/software markets.

RE: don'tget too excited unless you see DELL
JKingGrim @ 5/5/2003 2:51:07 PM #
>>>>"(Dell) will jump into bed with anyone if the price is right."

>>False. It's not about price. Dell listens to CUSTOMERS and gives them what they want and are willing to pay for. Read the book "Direct From Dell" by Michael Dell.

EVERYBODY EMAIL, MAIL, FAX, AND TELEPHONE DELL, AND ASK THEM FOR A PALM OS DUAL EXPANSION, DUAL WIRELESS, 128MB VG TABLET!

RE: don'tget too excited unless you see DELL
RhinoSteve @ 5/5/2003 3:41:13 PM #
I stand by what I say. The don't have the money nor the resources allocated. Dell is taking a wash on their PDA and in fact it is a loss-leading product for their PCs. They are so tooled up for dekstop systems, they cannot do PDAs right and be profitable at it.

I don't know where you are getting your numbers, but from here, Palm OS is in great shape.
RE: don'tget too excited unless you see DELL
Foo Fighter @ 5/6/2003 7:53:31 PM #
[quote] The don't have the money nor the resources allocated. [/quote]

That is insanely ignorant. You're saying that the worlds largest software firm, a company with over 40 billion dollars in assets, a massive workforce employing thousands of developers doesn't have the capitol or resources to attack the PDA market? Dear God, stop smoking Marijauna...it's killing your brain.

[quote]Dell is taking a wash on their PDA and in fact it is a loss-leading product for their PCs. [/quote]

Wrong again, clueless. Dell is not taking a loss on their Pocket PCs. In fact they are making a profit on them. Todd Kort confirmed this at Brighthand.

[quote]They are so tooled up for dekstop systems, they cannot do PDAs right and be profitable at it. [/quote]

Dell doesn't build handhelds. They hire contract manufactures to build the Axim X5, just like every other PDA vendor. So Dell isn't absorbing costs from the supply chain. Dell plays to win in every market it enters, and judging from comments made by Dell officials, they have a fairly aggressive PDA strategy rolling out over the next two years. If Dell couldn't make money in this market, they wouldn't be here.


RE: don'tget too excited unless you see DELL
Xom @ 5/7/2003 2:53:20 AM #
RhinoSteve is correct. With all their resources, Microsoft has been unable to make a PROFIT in the PDA market (read their annual reports if you do not believe me). And they HAVE been trying but their strategy just is not working. With the recent lukewarm reception of server2003, there are likely to be cutbacks throughout the entire Microsoft empire.

Dell has mastered making money on Laptops and PCs. They take an existing market and do what it takes to eke out a profit. As an example, they run new sales almost every day, advertised to a limited group of people, designed to keep the order pipeline filled. I rather suspect that Dell sees no way to make the kind of profit margin they want using the PalmOS platform.

RE: don'tget too excited unless you see DELL
EdH @ 5/7/2003 2:37:23 PM #
"With all their resources, Microsoft has been unable to make a PROFIT in the PDA market (read their annual reports if you do not believe me). "

Neither has Palm! GO back and add up all of their income statements going back to Feb 2000 when they went public. Very red, which explains how their cash shrank from over 1 billion in the bank to the $250M they have been hovering at for the past year.

"With the recent lukewarm reception of server2003, there are likely to be cutbacks throughout the entire Microsoft empire."

Huh? It has only been out a few days and it isn't a desktop product. Win2K had a better launch but that was because WinNT4 was getting very old. Win2003 will do just fine. They are already focuing on Longhorn for the desktop and redoubling their efforts on Office 2003, Exchange 2003 and the next version of SQL Server now that WinServer 2003 is out the door.

" I rather suspect that Dell sees no way to make the kind of profit margin they want using the PalmOS platform."

And apparently neither can Palm, Handspring and Handera. I rather doubt Sony has broken into the black yet either given the rapid product churn they do, but have no evidince of that. If they have, kudos to them on it and make that one profitable Palm OS person. I know Compaq was making money on the iPAQ and am sure that trend carried through to HP. Dell has been a confirmed profit maker too. Once again, seems the MS business model is working a bit better than the Palm model, despite Palm's market share lead in units. The problem is Microsoft and partners are cleaning Palm's clock in market share lead in dollars.

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