Comments on: Test Shows Tungsten T & C Outperform iPaq

>Both Documets to Go and Quickoffice now handle native Office filetypes.

DtG doesn't, yet.

Could someone beam over a Pocket Word or Pocket Excel file from a PPC to a PalmOS (5+) device and have your software deal with it just fine?

Interesting read, but some aspects of these tests are misleading. Look at MP3 playback. Audio volume on the Tungten|T is anemic even at max. Yet the tests show it at 50%? Who is going to listen to MP3 music on a T|T at 50%? It's too weak at 100%.

Video? Sorry, but video on a Palm device is still a novelty at this point. I can't stand looking at choppy pixelated movie clips in Kinoma. How does that compare to PPC? Do the tests reflect quality?

These raw numbers don't tell the whole story.

Foo Fighter @ 5/20/2003 1:37:54 PM:
> Hmm...a Palm commissioned study shows Palm devices
> leading Pocket PC? I am STUNNED. What's next? Apple
> benchmarks showing Macs outperforming PCs? 8^|

actually, apple's been doing that for at least the last 3 years, probably longer. since the introduction of the G3 powerpc chip with RISC processing, apple computers routinely outperform PCs at the same Mhz, and even when the apple Mhz is lower, particularly in the graphics arena. In fact, it was a major selling point on the the apple website for years.
i couldn't find the studies themselves from a few years ago on the apple website, but here's what they're touting now:
"The PowerPC G4 processor has been designed for unparalleled efficiency and performance. It can accomplish more tasks than Pentium processors in the same amount of time because of its short pipeline and the vector processing strengths of the Velocity Engine."
from http://www.apple.com/powermac/architecture.html

--------------------------------------
"Well, if it isn't the leader of the wiener patrol, boning up on his nerd lessons"
http://stirwise.com

Yes, that is what I experience on my Zire 71. Every video I've downloaded or converted via Kinoma producer looks pixelated and VERY low quality. Refresh rate is fine, but the overall quality sucks. PPC is still way ahead of PalmOS in video playback. We need a TRUE video player, like RealOne, QuickTime, or Windows Media (yeah...like that's going to happen anytime soon). Kinoma is crude and primitive.

> Sony's movie player renders excellent video, MUCH better than Kinoma. Too bad it only works on Sony Clies.

Yes, it is the best PalmOS solution I've seen. Enough to match PPC. Unfortunately, it is proprietary. :-(

My IIIxe renders video fine.

Kinoma on my 144MHz TT blows the doors off of WMP and a slew of third-party video players on the 400 MHz Dell Axim which I ended up returning before the 30 day deadline. The TT also won hands-down on the clarity of sound both in recording, and playback through the built-in speaker. If the PPC could have kept up on the multimedia front, Dell wouldn't have lost my money ;-)

I carry around the trailer for the Pirates of the Caribbean movie as a demo piece on my Tungsten, and it never fails to drop jaws, even among PPC users. Then again, I converted at a high frame rate and parity, with good quality sound.

As a T-C owner, I've seen the pixelation in Kinoma as well. It appears that in order to save file size the fast moving portions have the information in them reduced. The scenes with rich detail are the static portions. Which in theory makes sense in an MP3 audio kind of way, but it seems to be taken way to far...

The result is apparent on both pre-made trailers from Sony, and one's I incoded with the Kinoma producer from the T-C.

Performance is obviously there with ridiculously high potential framerates, it's just to pixelated for my liking.

I'll have another look with MMPlayer I guess.

Foofighter, I agree with the choppiness/grainy issues. I guess that to be expected though, as all the samples have the bit rate, and frame rate, and the audio compression, AND the audio sampling rate reduced as a sacrifice on the altar of file size. The version of the Kinoma Producer that comes with the Z71 (and T|C?) does not give you control of the encoding either, so you get pretty much the same results when you do it yourself.

The default settings are a far cry from optimal as you can see below...

Default for T|T:
FPS=15
Bit rate=640 kbps
Audio sample rate=22.050 khz
Compression ratio=2:1
Audio boost=none

With the full version, you can adjust the quality accordingly, but I've seen samples encoded at 12 and even 10 FPS. At that rate, you may as well rename it to JPS for Jerks Per Second.

Now I've gotten good results by making the necessary adjustments, but then file size takes a big hit. Julie (The Gadgeteer) had the same complaints, so I sent her a few with improved quality. But guess what? I still had to compromise slightly on the bit rate and audio just so I could email the files! She said they were smooth, but still grainy. With her being a balanced and reasonable person, I left it at that because using full quality would result in files that would not fit my mailbox. For my own use I can jack up the settings, but it's not something easily shared. Still, even at max quality, there is an "edginess" to the images. Not bad unless you look close, but I think the PPC WMP does a better job of smoothing out the individual frame images so the look nicer at the lower bit rates.

One thing I do know, is that it's not the hardware anymore. 22khz compressed ADPCM audio on a device with CD quality audio? We won't even talk about frame rate! At 15 fps, the T|T is just loafing.

BTW regarding the audio; I do listen to the T|T at 50% or less at times, but your headphone selection is very important. Get a set of headphone where the sensitivity is less than 94Db and 100% won't be enough. I had to audition several pairs to find a decent set with good frequency response and good sensitivity. Quite a drastic change from my mixer that will BLOW a set of headphones, plus your ears in the process. I must add though, that the audio quality of a T|T with the latest audio patch is VERY good. Better than my both of my Sony MiniDisc players.

Altema

"At that rate, you may as well rename it to JPS for Jerks Per Second.

After reading this line... I've realized that I am a dirty, dirty man. ;)

In all seriousness, I was quite interested in your comment about T|T's audio. Which headphone (or is it earphone?) are you using? I'm no audiophile, but I'm sure I'm using low quality ones because the sound output is low. I'd like to get new ones, but wouldn't know where to look.

Anyone out there with suggestions?

Jim

Just volume is not necessarily an indication of quality. I've had some that were loud and sounded like junk, and some not-so-loud that were good quality. The flip side is also true. Now that you ask, I'm amazed that there are no model numbers on any of mine except the Koss.

My favorite headphones were my former Koss lightweight folding set which is now out of production. They have a stainless steel band, and I could adjust the pressure on the ear itself with little pads that rested on your head above the ear. The kids destroyed them, which is why I don't have the model #. The sound quality was excellent if you can find a pair still in stores. I'll see if I can find the model number somewhere else.

I currently have 2 Koss, 3 Sony, and one RadioShack set. I know, I'm embarrased to mention RadioShack, but at least you could listen to them before you buy, and most stores will even open the packages for you to try 'em out. I got tired of buying a set at other stores, then going through the whole exchange process.

ANYWAYS... The Koss TD-61 sounds good and is accurate, but they are not real sensitive. I use these as my mix phones on my road PA system for which they are great. On the T|T they are OK as long as you don't need them real loud. The other Koss are the lightweight blister pack ones you get for $14.99. The sound is low AND bad.

On the Sony side, I use the "studio" headset which is silver, medium sized, and I can flip the earpiece over while doing live mixing. They sound as good as the Koss TD-61, maybe even a little clearer, and are slightly louder. The other Sony sets are the cheap walkman type. The sound is, umm... slightly better than holding two Palm III's up to your head, but nowhere near as loud. They ARE more stylish though :)

The RS set is a $19.99 affair of medium size, black with blue accents, rotary volume control, and a mono/stereo selector switch built into the cord. Although slightly lacking in the bass range (but still warm enough to be pleasant), they are clean and detailed in the sound quality. Volume is very good with a sensitivity of around 98Db if I recall correctly. Having the T|T at max volume with these is loud enough to make you turn it down or take them off after a few seconds.

I don't have the packing or model number for them either, but they should be easy to pick out by the rotary volume instead of the typical slider volume controls. Also hard to miss is the extra long cord; this cord is so long that you could leave your Palm in the car and listen from the porch. Heck, it's so long that someone could steal you car, and would get halfway down the street before your head got yanked off!

Seriously, there are probably a few dozen sets that would work well with the T|T, but I wear out, break, and lose them too much to invest in the high end ones. A lot of them also come with the 1/4 inch plug and need an adapter. It's just gonna get stuffed im my audio bag anyways.

"comparing kinoma to .mpeg is like comparing .gif to .jpeg. And declare the machine that run .gif is superior because the picture shows up faster."

You are right in perceiving that the typical Kinoma clip is not equal to the typical mpeg clip. The typical data rate is lower for Kinoma with many being in the 320 kbps range. Well, of course you device is going to fly with less data to process. However, if you put aside your preferences and look at the amount of raw data being processed by the CPU, you can get the amount of actual work pretty close by adjusting the encoding.

Just to settle matters in my own mind, I did such an experiment a couple months ago, matching the kb per second, frame rate, window size, etc. so that the amount of data processed was equvalent. The HUGE performance gap went away, but was still there. Instead of Kinoma running at 300fps, it was more like 154fps. Respectable, but not absurdly high like it was assumed they all should be.

Still, you have to realize that the T|T has a built-in DSP, and the T|C is just plain fast with the OS optimized near-perfect for the processor.

The overall clock speed does not tell the whole tale, as the T|T memory tests clock out at 588Mhz, and the T|C does the same test at 1.6Ghz. Yes, that's Ghz, not Mhz. Yeah, it's got a big battery for very good reasons!

I use a pair of SONY MDR-G52. Don't know what the specs are exactly, but the output is very good. I also have a pair of earbuds which came with my iPod, but those are about as worthless as stuffing cotton in your ears.

Altema, what SONY Studio headphones are you referring to? Which model is it, what is the pricetag?

"They are TWO entirely different compression algorithm!"

Yes, and your point is?

If one device can process and display the same amount of raw graphical data three times faster than another device...

I can see it now in a coast to coast road race between a Jaguar and a Suburban. The truck driver pulls up next to the Jag, who has been sitting there almost a full day, and shouts "Yeah, but I had my windows open!"

If that is not enough, lets throw out the OS difference. Let's try identical OS, identical applications, identical functions, but with a different processor. Such a test was done publicly in front of a crowd of spectators; one PPC equipped with the TI OMAP at 175Mhz, the other PPC equipped with an Intel Xscale at 400Mhz. The TI OMAP processor walked away. No codecs were involved. The processor does make a difference, and I can also add that the OS makes a difference. I have both side by side. They seemed on par when I had an M515 in regards to speed in some things like opening ebooks and crunching spreadsheets. Now that I've become accoustomed to the T|T, my PPC is agonizingly slow. The Mhz numbers say it should be the other way around, but reality is a different story.

It was Pocket TV, boyo!

I lie not!

I d/led that and put it on the 1910.

Hell, if the PPC had done crap, I would've said so. In fact, two PPCs do crap when it comes to certain types of MPEGs: the ViewSonic V35 and the Toshiba e75x. Apparently they use the same screen technology and certain MPEGs (the pulled Spiderman trailer with the World Trade Center) look *awful* on it -- while they look just fine on the 1910 and iPaq 39xx. Ah, the wonders of technology...

There are people who have ripped The Matrix to put on a Microdrive. I'm not one of them. I have personal uses for video.

I don't think I'll be getting a bag of popcorn and sitting down in front of a 2 inch screen. However, I do have a 1 hour video my kids love, and those fight scenes from the Matrix are alway entertaining. My wife has a more legitimate use: video of their dance rehearsals. Any question about how a certain part went? Problem solved as they pass it around despite the cruddy sound. Also, going to the hospital and taking a video taped message from a loved one can really make someone's day.

Quote:
"Yeah, I bet It'll take them another half year to patch the handheld, release a new model with better memory handling for streaming video, better wireless stack.. etc etc....(ust like .mp3)

but hey, people should be happy with basic organizer apps only right? who needs all these fancy schmancy stuffs."

Hey bluehemoriod,

Again you don't what you're talking about. Streaming video has been possilbe on PalmOS of very long time now using Firepublisher enterprise sever! I'm tellin ya need to lay off the ganja or youre' brain will...er...hell I guess it to late for you anway...Long live rasta mon!

Speaking of mobile video and limitations posed by internal flash memory, I LONG for the day when we see handhelds with mini hard drives built-in. I'm getting tired of PDAs, as they are currently designed. Although the Zire 71 has nearly twice the internal storage as my old M505, I somehow have less space for my apps and data.

As I look at my iPod (10gig HD), with PIM functionality, games, and various other goodies, I can't help but wonder if this isn't the direction PDAs should be moving.

>>As I look at my iPod (10gig HD), with PIM functionality, games, and various other goodies, I can't help but wonder if this isn't the direction PDAs should be moving.

Oh, Foo! Thanks for the segue!

"2) Late in 2002, when ARMed/BeOSed Palms start to appear, Sony will introduce the first Palm OS PDA with a built-in hard drive. Sony will use -- or will have licensed or developed in-house a version of -- the tiny 5GB Hitachi hard drive currently found in the Apple iPod. [...]

http://www.palminfocenter.com/view_story.asp?ID=2754

Baaaah, baaaaah, baaaaah.

>>>>Why do we dare question an independent lab's results? as a matter of fact why do we dare question their results against our own tiny, subjective experience with a demo iPaq.

>>>>IMHO, I'll stick with the lab test instead of any personal opinion.

-- yeah, why BELIEVE YOUR OWN EYES when you can have someone else implant their idea of reality into your (in your case, obviously tiny) head.

Tch, tch. Neo needs to speak to you.

Oh. As if you know what that was the onomatopoeia of. You obviously don't.

Does the personal use of video include sheep videos?

Thanks, robrecht

Foo, you've got your Kinoma quality settings wrong. That's the only thing that can explain your pixelation. Kinoma blows away my brother's Ipaq 5450. We both had the same Matrix trailer loaded when I ran into him last week and mine is movie quality. His was marred by the iPAQ's low resolution screen. Here's my producer settings:

format: cinepak mobile
fps: 30
size in pixels: 320X240
bitrate (this affects pixelation) 1000kbps

Your Zire should have no problems running 30FPS @ 1000kbps.

Well one thing I have discovered by playing with Kinoma settings...DO NOT convert movies in FULL SCREEN. They look terrible. I just down-sampled a Quicktime movie to "Large", and that did make noticable improvements in quality. However, I stand by my conviction. Quality still isn't as good as what I get from my Axim. Framerates are much better, mind you, but overall quality is still subpar. I see lots of visual artifacts and pixelation.

And I especially dislike Kinoma itself, both the PalmOS client and Desktop component. Pure Hackware! Ugly vintage PalmOS UI, clunky desktop middleware, draconian setup. Give me a REAL video player...no conversions....no PDB files...just pure MPEG playback.

Quote:

"uhh,, T|T screen blows everything out of the water dude, even thos pathetic iPAQs. But now that T|C and Z71 come out, everybody sings different tune: uhhh.... transreflective rulezzz...

Oh, the T|T apologists are still lurking around, denying the obvious...."I just went to Circuit City and looked at the Z71 and T|C screens. I'm not impressed at all. This is pure hype, my T|T blew away every one of them. A group of people standing nearby all agreed...Reflective RULEZ!!!"

The best part is, these idiots don't even have a say in the matter. By the end of this year (hell, probably the end of this summer) you won't even find PDAs with Reflective LCDs. I hope these T|T fanboys really mean what they say about loving their reflective screens, because they are going to be married to those T|Ts for the rest of their lives. Reflective LCDs are heading for the Smithsonian."

Foo, you do realize that quote was from ska don't you? Anyway, when I called your pals at ppcts "fanboys", they conveniently decided to ban me. Its ironic that you get away saying that over here...

By the way, what did you say to get banned by PPCT? I've said a few negative things about PPC there, and I've never had even the threat of suspension thrown against me.

kezza wrote: "actually, apple's been doing that for at least the last 3 years, probably longer. since the introduction of the G3 powerpc chip with RISC processing, apple computers routinely outperform PCs at the same Mhz, and even when the apple Mhz is lower, particularly in the graphics arena. In fact, it was a major selling point on the the apple website for years...."

Actually, a recent review at Digital Media Net pretty much shoots the "Apple is faster than Intel" theory. Not that I have anything against Apple (I use both Apple and PC), but this is an interesting comparison by an Apple supporter:

http://www.mediaworkstation.com/2002/05_may/features/cw_aeshowdown.htm

Sorry for the long link, makeashorterlink.com is not coming up today.

Quote: "By the way, what did you say to get banned by PPCT? I've said a few negative things about PPC there, and I've never had even the threat of suspension thrown against me."

It was basically just using the term "PPC fanboys" that pissed them off. For the actual reason, I suggest you ask J Dunn or EdH, even though I'm pretty sure they'll tell you some other ficiton/lie. In short, whatever you call the "lumberjacks" or PalmOS carzies that exist here, the same goes for the posters at ppcts and etc. The main difference is that the PPC users are allowed discuss, flame or whatever here unlike ppcts. Quite frankly, it's quite closed minded of the admin there not to allow opposing views from people who want ot debate and argue misrepresentations (of which are many btw) that frequently are made over there. And also, I'm am not the only one who was banned either FYI. Thus, there might be tons of immature posts by zealots, flames etc on PIC, but at least there isn't the type of rabid, broad censorship that occurs elsewhere...

> you didn't know anything about dissapearing posts do you? lol

Dissappearing posts? I thought that was simply an urban legend. You know, like mutants living under the city in sewers, alien abductions, Jane Fonda's acting career. ;-)

"By the way, what did you say to get banned by PPCT? I've said a few negative things about PPC there, and I've never had even the threat of suspension thrown against me."

I was banned as well. Obvious reasons, really, but I had a good run.

-Bosco
Proud Member of the Top Non-Mods

Well my opinions have gotten me into trouble a few times. I haven't been banned, but I'm certainly not welcome there. They tolerate me though. 8^|

By the way, I was referring to PocketPCthoughts. I just went back and read my post and noticed it may look to the casual viewer that I was replying to Roseblade, which I was not.

Move along...nothing more to see here.

> gotta keep that public image nice and shiny eh?

No, if everyone thought I was replying to YOUR post, they would have assumed I'm not welcome at PocketMatrix and PocketPCPassion. I was talking about PPCT.

>>Hey Mike:

>>I must say that your yada yada insult yada yada is very annoying. Specially the yada yada part.

>>Anyway, I'll be seeing you around...

-- you wish.
_________________________________
Guarde sus manos a se pervertido

Wait what? I've never even VISITED PocketMatrix. I just recently signed up for PocketPC Passion, but I haven't even posted anything. I think you're talking about the wrong guy. Maybe someone stole my username over there or something, who knows.

-Bosco
Proud Member of the Top Non-Mods

Actually it does not mean anything.

Guarde=keep
sus=your
manos=hands
a=to
se= no meaning
pervertido=pervert

Anyway, Mike good try. But keep the insults coming in english...

_______________________________________
Trata que tus palabras siempre sean suaves y dulces para que pasen facilito cuando te toque tragartelas.

Bosco:

Thanks for the translation!

Sorry to bother and not trying to offend you (though some guys get offended very easy) could you please tell me what is "Top Non-Mods". I'm not from the US so maybe that is why I don't understand that expression.

_______________________________________
Trata que tus palabras siempre sean suaves y dulces para que pasen facilito cuando te toque tragartelas.

Well, actually Bosco the phrase is not very harsh: it is not "when I stuff them down your throat" it is when you have to swallow them. It is just a lessson that I've been learning for a long time now...

_______________________________________
Trata que tus palabras siempre sean suaves y dulces para que pasen facilito cuando te toque tragartelas.

JAJAJAJA

Foo, you gettin' some or something? You smell like fish, your pants are fun... I can put 2 and 2 together. ;)

-Bosco
Proud Member of the Top Non-Mods

Thanks, Bosco. I thought babelfish had failed me. Leave it to you to bring sense when the other fellow can't!
_____________________
Pesque que los pantalones del desgaste son apuro
Pesque eso sin los pantalones son peor

Ok Mike if you continue hurting my native language then I must surrender. Your spanish is awful. Face it, you can only do the yada yada insult stuff right.

Anyway this has turn into a boring conversation I'll wait for another topic to continue...

"Larger Screen - Lower resolution yes bu you can still view more text and that is most important, right?"

Where are people getting this information? Physically larger means easier reading, not more data on the screen at once.

Also, you noted that rotating the screen allows more data on the screen. It doesn't allow more data on the screen, it just makes it easier to read web pages and text because you don't have to side scroll as much and it acts as if you're reading a book.

You say this was a very selective article, but you were VERY selective yourself. Here's a few examples:

How are you going to respond to an email with the iPaq? Do you REALLY want to use transcriber past the first three sentences? I don't think so. The keyboard is great for this, especially on a unit optimized for web access and email.

The screen is personal preference. Those of us with average eyesight should cope fine with having more data on a smaller screen than having less data on a larger screen. Although the difference is negligable, it's a matter of personal preference to be honest.

The iPaq is huge. I've felt one in my hands and I played with one for a few hours hands-on. It rivaled my NX in size. The T|C's size is average for a PDA, which is great with such a feature set.

Same specs. Come on, I don't think we need to go stride for stride with the point that 64 MB on the Palm will get you farther than the 64 on the 5455.

Last thing I'd like to point out is that the T|C is $200 less.

For a quick math reference, H5455 - Bluetooth - Love handles - larger screen - $200 + higher resolution + speed + storage + keyboard = T|C. Solve for X. ;D

Don't get me wrong, the iPaq is a great product. I'd love to own one, but I'm plenty content with my current HH. IMHO, the T|C is a better value for the money.

-Bosco
Proud Member of the Top Non-Mods
Members: abosco and ImpReza M3
Now accepting new applications

i just read the comment i posted above - i want to apologize for writting such a poorly constructed paragraph:)

The Tungsten T display is larger in terms of pixel count (320x320 versus only 240x320). Granted, the TT does require better eyesight for the same amount of information because the dpi is higher. But if you have good eyesight, or reading glasses, you can put 25% more data on the TT display.

The maximum amount of milliWatts of audio output is one metric where the TT does seem to underperform some PPC models.

just wait until Palm put a 3.7 inch screen, and we all gonna laugh.

It'll be the size of Texas and last 2 minutes, but all palmie head will declare it "technological breakthrough", because now it includes stereo out.

muawahahahhaah.......

As for the headphone jack, think Voice Over IP, rather than MP3.

"As for the headphone jack, think Voice Over IP, rather than MP3."

Yeah, big stuff in the near future, and something that will get you noticed on the job, rather than fired like listening to mp3's on the job. Some corporations are sinking millions into new networks to better handle voip plus data.

As it stands right now for voip, the T|C is the best equipped handheld at the moment.

"PS. apparently other companies have no problem whatsoever to include 4 pin mic jack, complete with stereo. (ie. h5450 can use phone mic jack, and standard stereo plug)"

Yeah, it's not a technical problem. Palm could have (and should have) put in the T|C. That was one of my reasons for holding off on the T|C. How much do you think they saved, $3.00?

Hey Blueblade:

If you're so amazed with PPC why are you bothering yourself with this discussion with a bunch of guys who prefer some devices that seem to you as Casio's digital diary...

Just keep on praising PPC and let us enjoy our medieval technology.

Hope you have noted the sarcasm in all of this...

_______________________________________
Nothing: the worst you can do.

Already a Tapwave's Helix fan...

Dell models sure as hell been around longers than T|C and h1910.

and E750 isn't that new either.

I agree with you about the impressive list of features of the iPaq you are mentioning. But you must agree that's the reason of its impressive size and weight.

The point here is that Palm and Sony have decided to produce handhelds for the corporate and multimedia user separatedly. This strategy being right or wrong is another issue.

Since the comparison is between a corporate palm and a do it all PPC then we must understand that PPC has more multimedia features not because it's superior technology. It's just due to Palm Solutions' lack of interest in adding them, lack/excess of market research or whatever other marketing reason you can come out with but that's a whole different story.

_______________________________________
Nothing: the worst you can do.

Already a Tapwave's Helix fan...

A lot of the above points about ipaq 5455 features are correct. palm frequently comes up short of expectations nbecause they skimp on $5 worth of hardware (the m130 screen fiasco). Too bad the ipaq run that bloated dog of an OS. Id only we could reflash it with Palm OS.....It would still be a brick, but a decent brick:)

Actually, i'd still avoid it. "Infinite expansion option" is a phrase we here a lot from ipaq users. Yes - it true. But all new Palms could have infinite expansion options if Palm or a 3rd party harware developer deviced to make a UC sled that allowed CF or PCMCIA. But of course they wont because its one ugly, brick of a solution. Its no longer a 'mobile' device at that point. Which brings me to why ipaq expansion is such a joke....

RE: Here is a thought..
rsc1000 @ 5/21/2003 1:06:29 PM

A lot of the above points about ipaq 5455 features are correct. palm frequently comes up short of expectations nbecause they skimp on $5 worth of hardware (the m130 screen fiasco). Too bad the ipaq run that bloated dog of an OS. Id only we could reflash it with Palm OS.....It would still be a brick, but a decent brick:)

Actually, i'd still avoid it. "Infinite expansion option" is a phrase we here a lot from ipaq users. Yes - it true. But all new Palms could have infinite expansion options if Palm or a 3rd party harware developer deviced to make a UC sled that allowed CF or PCMCIA. But of course they wont because its one ugly, brick of a solution. Its no longer a 'mobile' device at that point. Which brings me to why ipaq expansion is such a joke....
------------------------------------------------

Really. I was a long time Palm user and jumped ship because of the expansion options. I have my 5455 with the MemPlug sleve in my front left pants pocket as I type this. How is that not mobile? Its not as much of a brick as you think.

The only reason you hear the expansion options from the ipaq users is because they are available. GPS, Memory, Keyboard, battery..some are consolidated. Sure, its slightly larger but its still mobile.

Its still kicks serious ass even if you think its a brick.

Pleated Dockers....nothing extraordinarily big about the pockets. Also keep in mind that I use my 5455 every day as well and my opinion holds as much water as yours. I had a Tungsten T before the 5455 so I know small. I also know whats limited. I guess its just a matter of preference. It is not uncomfortable to carry at all IMHO.

One other thing, why would Palm put the speaker on the back of the unit. As soon as you put the thing in a case, you wont be able to hear it well.

By the way guess which one is thicker:

.6
.62
.65

1st Tungsten T
2nd Ipaq 5455
3rd Tungsten C (Yes, its thicker than the 5455 thus the brick theory should apply here as well. This would be bulge in a pants or shirt pocket, correct?)

The Ipaq is slightly heavier and wider but not by a substantial margin. Less than an ounce in weight, probably due to the screen and metal in the casing casing and bluetooth radio. The Ipaq is probably only less than a quarter inch taller than than the C because of the antenna.

Back to your post, Ive never lost data nor have even been close. Most mobile professionals have either a car charger or cradle on their desk.

Why would I want to buy a T/C when it does not do everything my 5455 does? If Palm really wants to dice it up, the whole idea was to say to the 5455 owners that ours is faster, battery life is longer etc to get them to trade it in for $50 bucks off.

That in itself is a joke.

Palm has some more convincing to do if they want me back.

> But you can't read more. In landscape mode your screen is still only 320 pixels wide.
this is simply not true. I have my Clie T625 and an iPaq 1910 in front of me - the iPaq displays 50% more text on the screen. granted, the font is not as crisp but the rendition is still excellent.
> I agree with you about the impressive list of features of the iPaq you are mentioning. But you must agree that's the reason of its impressive size and weight.
take the iPaq 1910 again, noticeably smaller than the Clie.
My overall impression of this new iPaq is excellent though of course it's windows: take the Acrobat reader, it needs 300K on the Palm, but 4.5 MB on the pocketPC !!!!

Yv

Take it with a grain of salt. Some points should be disregarded, and some are actually good points. Remember, this entire testing was funded by Palm Inc. Of course they're not going to talk about native file formats or how their devices handles widescreen MPEG video. They're going to go after what their handhelds are good at, and to some people, this "study" may be helpful in choosing the right device.

As for me, my entire focus has shifted away from Palm OS 5 and PPC 2002. I'm looking forward to Palm OS 6 and PPC 2003 and the devices that run them. Things are about to get real good soon... and with both platforms soon switching to full X-Scale optimization (for the PPC, Palm already had it) and native ARM code (for the Palm OS, PPC already had it), it's going to be a long, long battle. Ultimately, the end-user (us) will win, because we get an OS inspired by competition.

-Bosco
Proud Member of the Top Non-Mods

I never recall saying the TT's battery performance outtopped every PPC. Don't put words in my mouth, or I'll put my foot in yours.

I don't remember what you said last November. You said a lot of dumb stuff. Way too much for me to count. Something like the Axim doing better than the m130 or something, I don't remember, but I remember that it was wrong. ;)

Mark my words: COMING SOON! SKA-LESS PIC!

"PS. so who was it that say, T|T price will never fall under $350? eh mister I am a handheld expert?"

What, did it make another price drop or something? Last I heard, it's $350, and that was today. I would expect Palm to discontinue the TT before they drop it in price again, but I could be wrong.

If you've got a problem with me, be a man about it. Contact me and we can setup a conversation. You pick the topic, I don't care. Hiding behind countless usernames and "show me number" phrases won't do anything.

-Bosco
Proud Member of the Top Non-Mods

Point to a specific place where I said the T|T battery will outlast ANY PPC or "3 times more", at that.

I have made no such claims.

Way to selectively post and skip over everything I just responded to and you were clueless with a reply.

-Bosco
Proud Member of the Top Non-Mods

>>>Mark my words: COMING SOON! SKA-LESS PIC!

Promises, promises. I see his pseudonyms, his noms de PIC, use blue now. Is this to be regarded as his Blue Period?

Oh my God! We'll be BOXed in!

FLIRTING?!!? I thought that was what you were doing when you said you would put your foot in his/her mouth. I didn't know your feet went that way...

blue period: Picasso's work after his early period, followed by rose period, then various stages of cubism.
--------
Bosco, you are owned already. That's why you keep whining instead of posting good arguments.

You mean you want more than Cain posts all the time? Whats wrong with you? :)

Foo:

I agree with you to some extent. Some things are ment to be ignored.

However, this ska/blue anon,etc. is turning the signal to noise ratio to an all-time low. I can hardly forget when Palm's C?O David Nagel was answering questions about an article in PIC and the only one around was Ska... no wonder why Mr Nagel hasn't come around again.

Anyway, don't blame Ryan for a jerkfull environment... it's not his fault. I think Forrest Gump once said Stupid is as stupid does (though I'm not sure anout it).

_______________________________________
Nothing: the worst you can do.

Already a Tapwave's Helix fan...

"Bosco, you are owned already. That's why you keep whining instead of posting good arguments."

This is the problem. I've, for lack of a better word to describe the true situation, raped you bad enough and you still don't get the picture. We don't want you here. We don't like you. If we could, we would tar and feather you.

I don't post anymore good arguments because they are redundant and you don't change your mind. You're an idiot. How's that for a good argument? Prove to me you're not an idiot, and maybe I'll start listening to you. But until then, you're just a jealous fanboy with an unknown agenda. Put together a coherent, non-rambling, non-OT, non-attacking argument and I'll listen.

-Bosco
Proud Member of the Top Non-Mods

Get Hooked on Phonics.

-Bosco
Proud Member of the Top Non-Mods

yer just jealous and don't know what else to say. hah... :P

Didn't the Iraqi Info Minister do that too?

Wait....

So he/it is not ska, huh? Interesting that it/he finds this thread...

Read up on the subject. Palm OS 5 was never meant to be groundbreaking in software, it was meant to be groundbreaking in processing power and speed. You'll get the major software change in OS 6, just hang in there. I'm patiently waiting too.

-Bosco
Proud Member of the Top Non-Mods

Quote: "ehr, actually the OS5.0 suppose to be the one that kill PPC by answering alll of its advantage for once and all. Remember the hype last year?"

BlueOnion, what crap you talking about? PalmSource has said from day one that the purpose OS 5.x was to move the platform to ARM based processors and towards more powerful hardware spec. They have always maintained that the real upgrade was going to OS 6 anway! The purpose of OS 5.x was to allow licensees to get ARM-based hardware onto the market before the complete rewrite of Palm OS (i.e. OS 6.x) was complete.

Wow, this topic sure got the PPC zealots into panic mode... Funny stuff!

Couldn't agree more SR! Ska needs to get a life. I don't like the Lakers, so I don't spend hours watching their games. IT, on the other hand, would spend his money to buy season tickets just to boo. With the amount of time spent here, it apparently has no decent job, is a social misfit, and has delusions of grandeur. Kind of makes one curious to look behind the curtain in Oz...then again, I'd rather not.

Fairly psychotic, but whatever...

Actually blue-moron, every PPC user, fan, magazine and website assumed that PPC would have completely taken over the market by now. CE has existed for 7 yrs now. Everyone agrees that it finilly became competeive with Palm when PPC came out - then it was supposed wipe out Palm in a matter of a couple of yrs. Well - its be 4 yrs now - and which OS STILL leads in terms of marketshare? Palm OS - and it mostly maintained that lead on old fashioned 68k 33mhz or less dragonballs. Now, much of the industry has amnesia on this whole point - or more likely they won't own up to their completely inaccurate predictions. So, with a multi-tasking palm OS around the corner, and new Palms running on fast ARM devices with nice hi-res screen, AND with Palm OS having the majority marketshare in the PDA space - why do you think PPC is going to take over? we've been hearing this for 7 yrs now - care to giver us a new date for world domination?

>>PPC only been out for 2 years heh...

Actually we're both wrong - it launched 3 years and 1 month ago (April 19, 2000). Sorry for the exageration - though this does make it slightly cloer to 4 yrs than 2 yrs. So? When the date for world domination?

the "tech analysts" (who then again always fail to predict correctly) have been drawing y=x² graphs for pocket pc sales for more than a year.. guess what, in the beginning they were saying ppc sales would surpass palm in 2002, then they said in 2003, now they say 2004. quite obvious..

Standby time is one of the missed points. I had stored a Palm M505 for a friend who had a stroke, and the thing went for a year with only being charged twice. If battery life is your ultimate goal, then you'll be fine with the M500. However, I'm certain the T|C will live longer if the WiFi is not used.

Just for the record, if used identically, the T|T battery life is just as good as the typical M515 and M505. This means matching the brightness, and only doing the things which can be done on all three devices. In movie loop testing with the audio loudness matched, the T|T even did a little better than the other two. The test was started with all devices at 70%; but when the test was finished over an hour later, the 515 was around 47% and the T|T at 53%. What saps the T|T battery most is the fun stuff; things like running Mp3's for a solid hour each way during your commute, playing games with enhanced graphics and sound effects, and surfing the web wirelessly for a couple hours. But, you can't do that with the 505/515 anyways, so those devices don't have to deal with the extra load.

As a side note, I was able to get 19 hours runtime (38 days) from one charge on my M515 by using it like a mono device: little or no frontlight. That got old pretty quick though! What's the point of having Zap!2016 in full 16 bit color and not using it?

does naybody actually READ the report before making comment? The T|T 4:15 up time is for backlight on and IDLE.

2. h5450 has flash disk save. This feature automatically save data to prevent "data lost". Neither of POS models have it. The new E750 has 32MB of it. Would you rather 20 days grace period after main battery fail, or indefinite period upon ALL power failure.

-PPC has far more advance network remote sync and auto backup. Hence on top of the above data save scheme, PPC have far more ways to restore data than T|T or T|C ever can.

The point of all this? Palm gives illusion that 10 more days grace period is a good way to protect data, while PPC does not assume that and provide REAL alternative to data protection. Manual strickly says 72 hrs, otherwise use various protection given

would you like to take a chance on your data survival as done in the study , or would you rather have your data 'saved' in more reliable manner?

Palm Inc doesn't even bother giving their supposedly "enterprise" pda a back up utility. No wonder they are hyping this illusion of safety in big ways.

Too bad they don't dare putting it on their manual, It'll be interesting to see people suing their pants off regarding data lost whie operating within the documentated instruction.

better stock up on m500, they are not listed in Palm catalog anymore.

What's the different if your data will be gone after 7 days or after 20 days? IF they are gone, they are gone.

why not create a more robust 'data protection' system, instead of hyping..."coulda, woulda" data protection scheme.

If it protects data, then it suppose to 'PROTECT' data, not just protecting in probable 20days scenario.

1.) the test was not "fully charge" battery. But how long data is retain after the machine refuse to turned on anymore.

2.) so if your machine imploded and lost all data you can revive it with VFS backup, back up man without the help of a desktop? I don't think so. since those apps are NOT in the flash memory. The utility will be gone along with all the rest of memory. (and please dont tell me T|T has some sort of big Flash memory space left in that already meager ROM)

3.) The point of the test is DATA survival. Not answering question if you want your data lost in 5 days or 20 days. WHO cares! Palm wants you to believe that 20 days is some sort of magic number that will protect your data better, which any serious enterprise buyers will laugh at. If you are talking protecting data from power loss, then the data has to survive from power lost indefinitely period. A lost data after 20 days is still a lost data no matter how you cut it.

Assuming the handheld was stored in dead/almost dead main battery. Probably the T|T owner, depending on temperature and back up battery charge state.

the owner of h5450 will just shove his handheld to some power up the system and all data will be there inside the internal Flash disk.

IE, the h5450 owner does not need to do ANYTHING except powering on his handheld to get his address data back. It doesn't even NEED external SD/ CF, wireless back up, or whatever other thing you have to do with T|T.

now if it is h1910, then the owner is toast, he has to revive from external back up, just like T|T.

and really, are you proposing that internal flash disk that protect data is actually worst than 'pray hard nothing will lost' within the 20 days?

.... riiight.

---------
PS. we are talking about T|T here, not clie. which again underline the pathetic set of utility Palm inc. is giving this so called 'enterprise' PDA for protecting data. No wonder they keep singing the magic 20 days mantra.

Well it is very nice to know that PPC has 32Mb (33% of its total) for flash recovery. That is typical Microsoft doing: "We built the software you go get all the hardware needed to support it".

Anyway it seems to me that you're a very PPC biased guy so there is no sense in continuing this conversation.

Just remember to fully charge your PPC before you go home tonight cuz on monday you may have to use one of the various ways to recover your info designed by Microsoft and PPC manufacturers. Whereas Palm users will just have to go away without having to worry.

By the way my T615 has 127kb of flash memory, 25196% less than that PPC you're talking about and still I have 666% more days of freedom. Now go on and tell me that the 666 number is a proof of Palm's allegiance with the devil...

_______________________________________
Trata que tus palabras siempre sean suaves y dulces para que pasen facilito cuando te toque tragartelas.

HooDoo:

You might wanna check JackFlash for flash backup... (; ))

At their site they have an utility that tells you how much flash memory is in your device. Not sure about your Prism but maybe you'll be surprised...

_______________________________________
Trata que tus palabras siempre sean suaves y dulces para que pasen facilito cuando te toque tragartelas.

4 years later ans we still don't see the result.

where are the streaming multimedia in Palm? muawahahahah....

What the hell is Laptop Magazine and why are they reviewing PDAs wireless capabilities?

They don't post content online though their site is at
http://www.techworthy.com/magazines/laptop/

Dell was the runner up, thanks to its low price. Pro was the raw download speed (they tested just the throughput, rather than web page display), con was the 1.5 hr battery life when using WiFi. 4 stars.

IPAQ h5455 got 3 stars "thanks" to its price and 1 hour of running time with WiFi (!).

T|C got props for the easiest setup by far, keyboard, screen, CPU power and 4 hrs of battery time with WiFi (!!!). The only drawback they found was slower raw download speed, though based on the report in this article the speedy HTML parser and renderer more than makes up for it (HTML is pretty lightweight). 4 stars and Editor's Choice.

Sony got panned with 2.5 stars due to its size, unfriendly WiFi setup and enormous price (with WiFi card added to the cost).

Toshiba got 3 stars for a bit unwieldy setup, 1.5 hours running time and poor performance.