Comments on: palmOne Announces the Treo 650 Smartphone

palmOne today officially introduces the new Treo 650 smartphone, the latest member of the Treo smartphone family. The Treo 650 combines a compact, full-featured mobile phone with a thumb keyboard with email, a Palm OS organizer, messaging and web access. It adds many requested features such as a high resolution screen, Bluetooth wireless and an improved camera.
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Finch @ 10/25/2004 12:06:22 AM #
wow finally....its out...but whers the price????

Handhelds....Palm IIIe (Symbol Limited Edition) =====> Symbol SPT 1800 =====> Symbol PPT 2800 =====> Palm Vx =====> Zire71 =====> Sprint Treo 600
RE: Cost?
justauser @ 10/25/2004 12:26:47 AM #
What's with Palmone and their recent trend of announcing products before they're available for purchase? I thought they discovered the follies of this course of action back in the m505 days?

RE: Cost?
ReneeRoberts @ 10/25/2004 1:03:50 AM #
Four little letters: CTIA

RE: Cost?
tellit2be @ 10/25/2004 1:37:23 AM #
"with pricing to be set by individual carriers"
RE: Cost?
Wolfgard @ 10/25/2004 9:43:31 AM #
Cool phone, but no thanks if it debuts at the same price as the Treo 600 when it came out. I'd rather get the SE P910 then:)

pen & paper -> m515 -> Zire72 -> TH55
RE: Cost?
WuWei @ 10/25/2004 4:12:50 PM #
The cost is $599! At least that's what Sprint is charging.

OK, PalmOne executives, I'm writing out the check. Hold your breath until it gets there.

A lemon. Brand new 650 keeps crashing and rebooting
kevink @ 11/28/2004 2:52:37 AM #
My 650 crashes and reboots itself every other time I try to access the Web. I've already tried resetting the Palm, etc.

No, I do not have any 3rd party apps installed. Yes, I have done several hard resets. No, I am not trying to use sync software for an earlier mode.

I'm very unimpressed with the quality of Palm products. I paid $599 for a device that crashes more often than it works. Would most likely never buy anything with the Palm name again.

RE: Cost?
Strider_mt2k @ 11/28/2004 3:07:00 PM #
Well don't announce it here!
We've already been slammed for being negative about P1.

We don't need factual accounts from users making things worse!

RE: Cost?
mikecane @ 11/29/2004 1:55:14 PM #
He just registered. Makes me wonder if it's the MS Disinformation Corps at work again...

RE: Cost?
Gekko @ 11/29/2004 2:46:45 PM #

Check out the TreoCentral 650 forums:

Lemon turned into lemonade :)
kevink @ 12/8/2004 2:09:04 AM #
After much arguing with Sprint customer service, I got a replacement 650 and now everything is working just fine. The display and camera have been majorly improved over the 600. BTW, I am NOT a shill for Micro$oft.

No WiFi SDIO...

treo007 @ 10/25/2004 12:09:13 AM #
Wow, let the beatings begin. Look PalmOne, great product, but it's not carriers won't let you do this. There are plenty of other smart phones out there supporting WiFi (a lot obviously even have it built in).

With such little available memory, I'm not sure I'd want to take up my SD slot anyway.

RE: No WiFi SDIO...
LiveFaith @ 10/25/2004 1:50:18 AM #
Yeah, but most everything else to make this the logical successor of the 600 and the new standard among converged devices. A phenominal device.

After getting "taken deep" with the T5E2, PalmOne pitches a shutout with the Treo 650. 48 or 64mb would have been a no-hitter.

Pat Horne;

RE: No WiFi SDIO...
justauser @ 10/25/2004 2:24:05 AM #
I think this device may create a lot of converts to Smart Phones from people like myself who have been hanging on to their old T/T eagerly anticipating (and being disappointed by) the successor. I am looking forward to discarding my current mobile phone and getting my hands on this baby. Don't care about WiFi - don't want it don't need it.

RE: No WiFi SDIO...
Fernando @ 10/25/2004 10:42:38 AM #
while this is a nice palm, the only thing it's really missing for me is a wide screen. ALl i want is a palm with internet access at school (either wifi or cdma/gsm will do), widescreen (at least half vga) and a way to keep the battery charged. While the treo 650 is one of the closest devices that palm has released in the last while (the last being the T|C), I will hang on to my T|T for a while longer.... at least until the full vga dell ppc comes down in price, or palm releases a pda with those specs.... whichever comes first

Taking the hit on memory... :-(

jho4thclie @ 10/25/2004 12:28:35 AM #
As absolutely heartbroken about the memory as I am, I will most likely still make this my next device.

I'll really have a hard time going from the 55MB I have now (T|C, then TT3) down to less than 25MB available but if it means FINALLY having a fully-capable, OS5, high-res, bluetooth Palm device that lets me carry one less device, I'll go for it. All this means is that I need to get a bit more friendly with my quarter-gig SD card. :-D

I hate my T610's guts... I'm really looking forward to getting rid of it. So...

... Let's get moving, T-Mobile... I want a Treo 650!


RE: Taking the hit on memory... :-(
millydog @ 10/25/2004 1:03:22 AM #
I also have a T3 and are considering the Treo 650. I currently use a SE T68i with my T3 but the phone has gone a bit flakey and does not always work. If the memory for the 650 was at least 64MB then I would not hesitate, but it is a downgrade from the T3's memory size.
I have a 1GB SD card on order maybe. Has anyone else switched from a T3 to a Treo 600 or is anyone thining of the switch from a T3 to a Treo 650?

RE: Taking the hit on memory... :-(
drw @ 10/25/2004 3:45:47 AM #
I'm sticking with my T|C/T610 combo for now. Next upgrade I see is whenever sprint rolls out EVDO (provided they don't try to charge $80/month like verizon, which, if they do, I'll stick with my $5 unlimited T-Zones on T-Mo.)

RE: Taking the hit on memory... :-(
framecatcher @ 10/25/2004 9:10:31 AM #
I switched from my T3/T630 combination to Treo 600. I had to make some sacrifice on the resolution, bluetooth and memory but on the whole it has been a very pleasant experience. I am still keeping mt T3/T630 and I thought I would be switching them every now and then with my Treo 600. However very soon I was used to the conveience of carrying only the Treo 600 because I can do everything with it. I don't need WiFi. My unlimited GPRS plan gives me more convenience to surf the net anywhere instead of trying to find a hotspot.

I would like to get a Treo 650 some day but not now. I will wait for the price to drop (may be in six months). Then I can enjoy the high resolution and bluetooth with my SE bluetooth headset.

RE: Taking the hit on memory... :-(
jdh @ 10/26/2004 10:28:45 AM #
I'm a T3 user, and ever since the initial speculation on the 650, I've been seriously considering taking the plunge back to a smartphone PDA.

I had the Kyo 7135 until about a year ago, when I replaced it with a T3 and SE T68i, because there was just no comparison in terms of capabilities.

I would miss the 320x480 screen resolution, and the larger screen on the T3 (if you compare, the Treo 650 is definitely a smaller screen, even compared to the T3 with slider closed), but for me, too, the big thing is the memory... Considering I normally run with <5Mb of free RAM on my T3, I'm not sure I could even *handle* the decrease in useable RAM...

I *do* have a 1Gb card, but it's still not highly effective for running applications from, as they always have to be copied back and forth to/from live memory, which means that a large enough chunk has to be kept free just to support that, and it takes longer for these apps to launch.

At the price of memory these days, I'm really not sure why PalmOne didn't just give us 64Mb in the 650... (although I suppose it's possible that this newer non-volatile flash memory may be more expense... ).

I hope this one is built better than my Treo 600 was

The_Voice_of_Reason @ 10/25/2004 12:01:55 AM #
Please don't mess up a great design with c r a p p y construction, Palm.

Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.

RE: I hope this one is built better than my Treo 600 was
kevink @ 11/28/2004 2:54:32 AM #
The 650 is not well built, IMHO. See my reply to the first thread here.

When Treo 650 will arrive in HK?

asiayeah @ 10/25/2004 2:37:33 AM #
I just wish this time Treo 650 will arrive in Hong Kong soon. Last time it took half a year for Treo 600 will arrive in Hong Kong, after it was available in the States!

With great power comes great responsiblity.
RE: When Treo 650 will arrive in HK?
Black B @ 10/25/2004 12:43:05 PM #
Yes, I have been waiting this product for few months. But, it seems palmOne Hong Kong will not release Treo 650 before 2005. I am not sure I can get rid of the SE P910ís temptation.
RE: When Treo 650 will arrive in HK?
Gatchaman @ 11/18/2004 8:17:16 PM #
The currect promotion of Treo 600 with free m505 is valid through to December 31st... i'd expect the 650 to be released soon after
RE: When Treo 650 will arrive in HK?
Gatchaman @ 11/18/2004 8:19:27 PM #
that should be current promotion

Network search

pascanu @ 10/25/2004 2:41:07 AM #
I am very happy with my Zire72 and this one looks like I can have everything I've got PLUS a smartphone. I really look forward to getting one.
One thing though: I understand Treo600 is unable to automaticaly reconnect once it has lost signal (at least the GSM version). Does anybody know if this has been fixed, because it is more than annoing to constantly check if your phone is "online" or you are missing important calls!

Handspring Visor -> m505 -> Zire71 -> Zire72

RE: Network search
gilbas99 @ 10/25/2004 5:40:00 AM #
I have the Treo600 GSM version, and I don't have problems getting back to the network after a subway travel.

Direct Exchange Server connection

coolcactus @ 10/25/2004 3:31:25 AM #
I am wondering what this new possibility to connect directly to an exchange account means for companies like Blackberry or Good. Doesn't that render their Exchange add-on and mobile software obsolete?

Interesting but not a T3 replacement

WuWei @ 10/25/2004 3:29:41 AM #
Interesting. I don't know that much about cell phones; got mine from my employer years ago. However I notice this has the screen & memory size of the best selling Tungsten E, so people are getting a real PDA here. I hope they sell a lot.

I won't buy one because it would be a step down from the T3: smaller screen, less memory, and keyboard instead of navigator.

RE: Interesting but not a T3 replacement
MikeInDM @ 10/25/2004 11:34:51 AM #
I didn't know they planned on this being a T3 replacement.
RE: Interesting but not a T3 replacement
tellit2be @ 10/25/2004 4:01:40 PM #
I *think* the T650 has the same resolution as the T|E, not the same size screen.
RE: Interesting but not a T3 replacement
Rhauer @ 10/25/2004 4:05:31 PM #
(T3, Jobra 250, Siemens S56) What is the screen size. Is it the same size as the T3 closed. I don't think I'm ready for an all in one unit but I don't ever open my T3. Maybe I don't need the extra real estate.

RE: Interesting but not a T3 replacement
WuWei @ 10/25/2004 4:10:46 PM #
Yes, I said it wrong. The Treo 650 has the same resolution as the T3, but a smaller sized screen.

Even more importantly, it was just announced by the first carrier that the Treo 650 will sell for $599! That would buy two discounted T3's.

RE: Interesting but not a T3 replacement
JonathanChoo @ 10/26/2004 6:13:46 AM #
The Treo 650 has a 320x320 screen whereas the T3 has a 320x480 screen.
RE: Interesting but not a T3 replacement
Rhauer @ 10/26/2004 11:12:23 AM #
Isn't that the resolution. What is the real estate.

infrared port?

rened @ 10/25/2004 3:52:13 AM #
Does this Treo have a infrared port? Couldn't find the answer elsewhere.
RE: infrared port?
WuWei @ 10/25/2004 4:14:17 AM #
RE: infrared port?
EdiVenturin @ 10/25/2004 4:18:29 AM #
HAve you taken a look at the picture in this story?


pcrymble @ 10/25/2004 5:33:34 AM #

I've got a Tungsten T - although the MP3 player is good the volume isn't loud enough - so you have to use a seperate amplifier.

What is the volume like on the Treo 600 and if its not good, has the 650 addressed it..

As always, device convergence is the key to my custom!


Peter Crymble
Palm Tungsten T

Camera is VGA

gilbas99 @ 10/25/2004 5:42:23 AM #
Not a 1.3 megapixel as rumored...

No Camera...
hotpaw4 @ 10/25/2004 3:47:48 PM #
A version without a camera at all would be better, IMHO. Looks like Sprint has announced that that's in the works; a GSM provider with similar plans is needed.

RE: Camera is VGA
skennedy1217 @ 10/26/2004 11:10:16 AM #
I am actually disappointed that the camera is not 1.3mp, because I use my current TH55 for a daily photoblog. I am constrained by it's .3 mp camera and was hoping for a convergence device with greater individual parts...oh well, I am sure it will come eventually.



Interesting comment on high-cpeed comms

SeldomVisitor @ 10/25/2004 5:53:19 AM #

Now go back and read what PalmOne says about the TREO 650's capabilities w.r.t. this.


vike @ 10/25/2004 6:23:28 AM #
Ed Colligan said: "Treo smartphones let people do what they want, when they want and just about anywhere they want." Kind of ironic that wi-fi was taken out of the equation .. The powers that be (and I mean the phone companies' distribution channels and not PalmOne) don't want Treo users to do "what they want" when faced with the choice between ordinary cell networks and VOIP providers (Skype, etc). It may be a necessary compromise for PalmOne, but "delighting the customer" it's not. What on earth happened to Palm, the market leader?

RE: Wi-fi
pascanu @ 10/25/2004 8:49:07 AM #
Skype does not run on PalmOS an as far as I know/heard they don't even plan to make it available for PalmOS.
RE: Wi-fi
justauser @ 10/25/2004 8:56:43 AM #
I believe Skype are wanting to create a Palm OS version but don't have the know-how. It won't happen this year in any case. But it will eventually. Certainly, the availability of WiFi Palm models would probably speed up the process.

RE: Wi-fi
bnystrom @ 10/25/2004 1:07:58 PM #
Skype doesn't even run on many PocketPC device, even though they have it available. It pretty much requires the most powerful devices out there. I guess I should say that "voice" capabilities on Skype are not available except on the most powerful PPC devices. Skype will run on lesser devices, but only for sending text.

RE: Wi-fi
vike @ 10/25/2004 3:09:25 PM #
It's bound to happen (one way or another)

I don't kow about the US, but just _one_ hour's worth of wi-fi VOIP will easily save me USD 80+ compared to international roaming charges on cell phone networks here in Euroland. I'd hate to see Palm bet against this thing ..

RE: Wi-fi
justauser @ 10/26/2004 1:17:03 AM #
bnystrom raises a good point. The iPAQ's latest (and only) GSM/GPRS handheld (h6315) may have WiFi and Bluetooth but it only has a 200MHz processor - Skype requires 400MHz for PPC version. The iPAQ also lags behind with an old version of the operating system and only has 64Mb RAM! This is a low spec to run the clunky resource hungry PPC OS. Treo 650 looks better bang for your buck. It certainly wins hands down with form-factor.

RE: Wi-fi
pascanu @ 10/26/2004 2:58:29 AM #
"Despite what a report said earlier this month, Skype Technologies does not plan to release in October a Palm OS version of its VoIP application (Sep 20, 2004)"

Handspring Visor -> m505 -> Zire71 -> Zire72

RE: Wi-fi
vike @ 10/26/2004 3:30:45 AM #
Aha! Missed that one :)

It's understandable, though, for VOIP providers to wonder what Palm's plans are regarding wi-fi. Chicken and egg. And while Palm ponders where the ultimate responsibility for development of the Palm platform lies, the dark side isn't exactly snoozing ..

RE: Wi-fi
rsc1000 @ 10/26/2004 8:49:39 PM #
Please tell me why palmOne would want to add wifi to the treo? i know why i want it - but i think palms main channels for selling the treo (ie: the CARRIERS!) might not be interested in users by-passing the main money making service that the carriers offer. Why the heck would sprint want users not paying $$$ to use sprint service? How does it make any sense?

Wi-fi denial
vike @ 10/27/2004 3:03:59 AM #
Yeah, not to mention that Sprint kept Handspring afloat for a while, I believe. Trouble is that the wi-fi/cell combo already _is_ available now - over on the dark side, eg Imate pda2k. Maybe unsporting of them but I doubt they're going to let Palm off the hook here. The carriers have enormous interests at stake (not least when it comes to hefty international roaming charges, hefty as in 10-15 x standard national charges) but if you turn that coin around so does their customers. Maybe this is a case for looking at the global market with regional eyes? Which parts of the world have lots of international roaming going on versus which parts don't (as in Europe versus the US) and then on to defining Treo marketing strategies to match the conditions on the ground. Palm is not going to win the smartphone wars against giants by fighting this thing all over the planet with one hand tied to the back. IMHO.

RE: Wi-fi
vike @ 10/27/2004 4:42:07 AM #
Did I say "win"? I meant "survive".

I'll bet they put wifi in an upcoming Treo

joej @ 10/25/2004 9:12:54 AM #
I think this is a pretty cool phone. Those of you disappointed with lack of wifi or a better camera, remember there will be a "family" of Treos soon.

Newton. Sharp Mobilon. Psion 5, 5mx. Visor Deluxe. Clie N760. Palm Personal, III, T, T2, T3. SE t68i on T-Mo.
RE: I'll bet they put wifi in an upcoming Treo
jasondeno @ 10/25/2004 10:23:41 AM #
I know this is heracy, but as a Treo 600 user, I'm underwhelmed by the new device. Apart from the screen, there is little here to get excited about or justify my upgrade.

The camera is not any higher res than mine (granted, it may look better at 640x480, but what can you really use that res for anyway?)

Wi-Fi is a no

Bluetooth is way too up in the air for me to buy in (didn't they say would be an add-on for my 600 back in the day?). When I see people actually using it for headsets, synching and Internet sharing, I may bite. But I'm not going to be the early adopter this time out.

Same memory. Same battery.

I guess the hi-res screen is nice, but that's about all I'd get for a $400 (assuming) upgrade.

I'm still far more interested in the, dare I say it, HTC mdaIII. Ya, its a Pocket PC, but it packs so much more than the 650 that its the only concievable upgrade for me at this point.

RE: I'll bet they put wifi in an upcoming Treo
statik @ 10/25/2004 10:38:14 AM #
If you take a look at the PalmOne Website under accessories you'll see that they are advertising various cables, cradles and *Yippie!* replacement batteries and bluetooth headphone sets for the 650. They don't mention it, but I'd be surprised if it doesn't support the Bluetooth GPS units that PalmOne sells as well.

I wouldn't mind a better camera, but 640*480 is hardly the end of the world. It looks like Palm is taking steps in the right direction.

RE: I'll bet they put wifi in an upcoming Treo
hkklife @ 10/25/2004 10:53:52 AM #
Well, we've been hearing rumors of this device for AGES and they all indicated it'd have a 1.2mp camera until the press release rolled in this morning. My theory? The crappy Zire 72 camera that P1 was planning on using in this Treo has been determined to be SO lame that P1 had to scramble to find a replacement. They probably figured it was better to have a "good" low-res camera than a marginal high-res camera. I have a Moto v710 and while it does indeed have a 1.2mp camera, its indoor and low light performance is so dire that it's basically useless for anything other than taking pics of people outdoors on sunny days. A coworker has a new Samsung and the quality of its 640*480 stills are outstanding in most lighting situations. So I can rationalize that decision on this 650. But i do agree wit the rest of the comments here:
It's overpriced for what you get (T|E or Z72 era PDA specs) but at very high pricing. If it does end up costing what the Treo 600 did at launch, then I'd expect the 650 to have at least 64mb ram and a better camera for that kind of money. At least the batteries are replacable! I can't wait to personally test out that new "smiley" keyboard as well. Overall, a solid B+ effort from P1 IMHO.

RE: I'll bet they put wifi in an upcoming Treo
nrosser @ 10/25/2004 11:45:16 AM #
jasondeno - as a current 600 user, keep in mind that you may not be the exact person pOne is going after with this device. They are probably seeking to the total market, and adding in incremental functionality (hi-res, BT, swappable battery, keyboard improvements, etc) is intended to go after those hard core handheld users who resisted the initial 600 due to the fact that it didn't have some of those (most notably hi-res and BT).
In other words, pOne is going after the larger set of phone users, and not just hoping to upgrade amongst their current 600 customer base - that larger market is exponentially more lucrative.
Just a thought.

RE: I'll bet they put wifi in an upcoming Treo
nrosser @ 10/25/2004 11:51:13 AM #
(can't edit posts, evidently) - my statement above should read 'seeking to EXPAND the market'...left that word out.

RE: I'll bet they put wifi in an upcoming Treo
sford @ 10/25/2004 3:02:18 PM #
I agree with nrosser. I'm one of those users who has been waiting for a convergence device that suited my wants/needs for years but avoided the 600 cuz of just a couple things (e.g., low-res). It will be "hard" going from my T3 to this, cuz of the larger, landscape screen mostly; but it is definitely not a "deal breaker" for me.

Pilot Pro -> III -> IIIe -> Nino (yeah...oops!) -> IIIc -> VIIx -> m505 -> NR70V -> NX60 -> T3
RE: I'll bet they put wifi in an upcoming Treo
rsc1000 @ 10/26/2004 8:56:24 PM #
Ditto on these last points. This is what i have been waiting for. Extra memory and a wifi option would be nice (its no surprise that this doesn't have wifi built in - how does built in wifi help sprint and other carriers?). I've been waiting for the 320 x 320 screen, BT, and faster processor (the processor + an almost certainly larger cache size means more OS 5 apps will run on it). As for those mentioning Cobolt: i definitely expected Cobolt on the T5 but I never expected it on the Treo because that is - after all - why they introduced the idea pf splitting the OS line into 'Garnet' and 'Cobolt' and announced (almost a year ago) that Garnet was targeted for Smartphones. So no surprise there. I think this kicks ass and after carrying around a Sony-Ericsson p900 for the last week - i can't wait to dump its crappola UI and pick up a Treo. Even after the T5 debacle i won't leave Palm OS because it has the only interface that doesn't make me have a brain aneurysm.

Cool, but still...

A9700rO @ 10/25/2004 11:53:16 AM #
Yes, this is something to placate those who are still furious at the T | T5. But from the specs I saw a few months ago, It seemed the Treo 650 was like, a Zire 72+Phone. They have the same processor speed, and similar in almost every way. Except for that camera though, 640x480 resolution is a step too far back for some of us. But it's a good device that one could take into consideration.

Clie-SJ22>>Tungsten | E >>> Clie-NX60>>Zire 72

What's with the Wi-fi fixation?

Altema @ 10/25/2004 12:33:33 PM #
There,.. that alone is enough to start a flame war!

Seriously though, I'm in the middle of wi-fi and survey/design/deploy wireless networks. However, why is wi-fi such a critical must-have-it-or-die necessitiy for a device that can connect pretty much anywhere? 802.11b is already obsolete, so I know it's not because we desire the latest and greatest.

Of the 4 persons I know that use a wi-fi capable handheld, (POS and PPC) two use it on an ocassional basis, one has tried it a couple of times then stopped, and one has never used it at all. Now, I know that there are those of you who need and use it every day, and it is a critical feature for you. But for the typical user, is this really such a gigantic issue that we are ready to take every device that does not have wi-fi (even ones that are already connected) and burn them at the stake?

RE: What's with the Wi-fi fixation?
Felipe @ 10/25/2004 1:44:57 PM #
I dont understand it myself, but the best argument I have heard is that with wi-fi you have the ability to use your phone in buildings where you cant get a cell signal. assuming of course the building your in has wireless access point and assuming you can use them. :)

at least over on treocentral, i'm seeing for a $600 phone it should have wi-fi comments.

currently, i cant see a place where i can use wi-fi.

RE: What's with the Wi-fi fixation?
RhinoSteve @ 10/25/2004 1:46:08 PM #
This "WiFi fixation" is a good term. Pretty much it comes from those who are hard up to get Wifi and are so damn cheap, they can't afford a laptop or a cell phone bill. The other PDA houses are doing it since they can't get any market share worth ****.

I'll say it again, you make a product with everything the customer wants, they won't buy much since you just satisfied all of their demand. I like the Sony model, "Always leave one thing out and have them begging for more."

It is also a good way to keep a woman in your life. ;)

You want WiFi get a T-C or go home.

RE: What's with the Wi-fi fixation?
Alchemist42 @ 10/25/2004 1:50:42 PM #
Wifi also lets you connect to network resources (with the appropriate software of course) as well as LAN hotsync with your desktop wherever you are in the building.

There are other advantages of Wifi as well... depending upon your cell plan, it might be cheaper since Wifi usage would be free on your home or office lan. Also Wifi provides the option of using VOIP which some businesses are using internally and is growing as a telephone alternative.

Of course that last one is probably why theres no wifi in the Treo 650... the telcos really dont want VOIP to happen.

RE: What's with the Wi-fi fixation?
jasondeno @ 10/25/2004 2:11:42 PM #
Personally, I'd like to unify one more communication method on this device. I already do mobile phone, work email, personal email and sms on it. Why not make it a handset for a VOIP solution. I'd like to put VOIP in the house for the savings, but being able to use the same handset (with all of my contacts in it) for both would be cool.

Not high on my list, but if the system was in place, I'd think about it.

RE: What's with the Wi-fi fixation?
statik @ 10/25/2004 2:27:12 PM #
"the telcos really dont want VOIP to happen."

Excellent point! The telcom companies want bluetooth, built in cameras, mp3 playing, and internet browsing/email as those features encourage users to use the cell networks more. (And thus more money in the company's pockets).

If PalmOne tried to include WiFi (and VoIP), people would use WiFi instead of the cell networks. Not exactly a good selling feature from the Cell phone companies view.

My hope is for a Tungsten C2 that can be used as a VoIP phone without needing to use a headset.

RE: What's with the Wi-fi fixation?
cnegrad @ 10/25/2004 3:32:55 PM #
For those of us that do a lot of traveling, WiFi is extremely convenient for use in airports and offices where WiFi hotspots are common. Bottom line: Perhaps the "average user" (whatever that means) doesn't care about it, but for those of us that need it for our jobs, it's very important. But I think y'all are thinking about it backwards. So many phones (and some pda's) already have WiFi built in despite your claim that most folks won't use it. Not having WiFi is what will absolutely prevent many of us from even considering the 650 as a possibility.

P1 really needs to wake up and consider that the fact their consumer research is flawed.


RE: What's with the Wi-fi fixation?
Altema @ 10/25/2004 4:55:36 PM #
I expected flames and got useful viewpoints instead... thanks for the insight everyone. The case of not having cell coverage applies to me as well, since my office is underneath a 6 story aluminum building!

RE: What's with the Wi-fi fixation?
feranick @ 10/25/2004 5:22:20 PM #
WiFi would be perfect to have it in the T|T5, not in the Treo650. I can totally understand if PalmOne omitted WiFi on the Treo650 (although they could have let people use the WiFi card with it), because it's not worth the extra cost). What's less excusable is the lack of internal memory in the 650 (and the WiFi in the T5).

RE: What's with the Wi-fi fixation?
tellit2be @ 10/25/2004 6:36:14 PM #
VoIP on a Palm is still far from working properly. Most people want WiFi because, for the amount we're paying for the device (which looks to be $500-600 this time around), we should be able to buy something that has this technology built in. 802.11b is obsolete as someone stated earlier, so it should be an obvious addition if it's already been perfected. This goes for ALL PalmOne products. The T|5 should have had it built it. So should the Treo 650. Every PPC over a certain price has it built in now...EVERY one of them. I'd say the price point for this technology is around $350, meaning that if you pay $350 for the device, it should have WiFi built in.

Bluetooth, on the other hand, shouldn't be built in, because 1.) they still haven't perfected the standard yet, and 2.) not all cell phones have it built in yet, even at the higher price ranges.

RE: What's with the Wi-fi fixation? SPEED is the fixation!
kpr @ 10/25/2004 8:00:51 PM #
I can't believe no one has mentioned this yet,
but the main advantage of W-Fi over every other
wireless standard is ** SPEED ** !

Furthermore, 802.11b is not obsolete because
it is much faster than almost any internet
connection you can get at the present time.

So the 802.11b part will not be slowing down your
internet connection (or slowing down your web
browsing experience), but instead it is how the
Wi-Fi Access Point (AP) itself is connected
to the internet that will be the slowest link
in the chain (or the web server you are trying
to connect to [or palmOne's proxy server]).

The main disadvantages of Wi-Fi is you have to
be pretty close to the Wi-Fi AP (around 300 feet)
and the amount of battery life is uses.

RE: What's with the Wi-fi fixation?
justauser @ 10/26/2004 4:25:21 AM #
I'm sure WiFi hotspots are well used since there are so many of them around the world. However, my experience has been that they are darn expensive for the occasional traveler like myself. Also, they aren't exactly convenient (when travelling I like to spend as little time in the airport as I can). I attempted the WiFi thing with my Laptop last tour of Europe and was disappointed. Mobile + PDA is the best solution for the travelor. For brief periods of exposer to a WiFi network in airports or Starbucks, I'd be happy to shove in a WiFi SD card. Treo 650 rocks.

BTW, I've said this in a previous post but check out the specs of the iPAQ h6315 (iPAQ's latest and only GSM/GPRS handheld). Sure it has WiFi and Bluetooth but the processor, battery life, memory and old version of the operating system suffer as a result making the h6315 a second rate handheld at best (especially considering the resource hungry PPC OS). I'd take the Treo in preference any day.

It's not for everyone, but I dare say it's more than enough for most.

RE: What's with the Wi-fi fixation?
AdamaDBrown @ 10/26/2004 4:37:21 AM #
WiFi is hardly obsolete, it's growing every day. Entire cities are deploying hundreds of square miles of coverage. It's faster than any other wireless standard. It allows you access to applications that you could never have over GPRS, or only at great difficulty. Try streaming music from your home PC over GPRS, or VNC, or a dozen other things. And, WiFi would mean that you could surf the internet and remain connected WITHOUT tying up the cell phone. Correct me if I'm wrong, but if you're using GPRS (or 1xRTT), isn't the phone essentially 'off the hook,' not accepting calls?

RE: What's with the Wi-fi fixation?
JonathanChoo @ 10/26/2004 6:58:45 AM #
Personally being in London, I think WiFi is the single most useless thing on my PDA. I hardly use it because if I want to use the internet in my room, I can use my PC. There are almost nil free hotspots in London and I have to pay the major coffee houses more money (on top of their expensive and tasteless coffee) to use WiFi.
RE: What's with the Wi-fi fixation?
cnegrad @ 10/26/2004 8:54:22 AM #

I think you're missing the point on two counts:

1) Those of us in favor of WiFi DONT have immediate access to a computer when on the go. That's the whole point of having WiFi. It's fo internet access when you're unable to get to a computer.

2) It's unfortunate that you're corner of the world doesn't have Hotspots. So because of that you want to deny the feature to rest of us that do need it?

It seems to me that you're only thinking of yourself, and not the needs of pda users as a whole.


RE: What's with the Wi-fi fixation?
justauser @ 10/26/2004 9:39:31 AM #
Cnegrad, I'm sure Jonathan and you would be aware that London has plenty of hotspots all over the city. I believe his point (and mine) is many hotels don't have WiFi, and if they do you have to pay through the nose. Other hotspots in coffee shops / airports / malls are great, but stationary - not all that useful if you're on the move all day. I don't know about your corner of the world but GPRS internet access is cheap, quick and convenient. I can check emails, surf (and even access my computer via WinHand) with my T/T and a bluetooth enabled mobile for about $6 US a month. Why WiFi?

RE: What's with the Wi-fi fixation?
JonathanChoo @ 10/26/2004 12:38:01 PM #
I feel I need to elaborate more as my previous reply is not sufficient and probably misunderstood.

I said I see WiFi is useless on my PDA but I did not state that I wish to see it dead. Why are you accusing me of thinking for myself?

Second - there are WiFi hotspots in London - but most require payment. BT Openzone costs £40 for a 30 day usage and limited to 4000 minutes of connection. For £7 I can subscribe to O2 Data 36 for £14.50 a month for 36Mb worth of GPRS.

Third - the connection is unreliable. I need to stay stationary to use it. I wander off 10 metres from my position and I would need to reconnect or wait for my PDA to do so automatically. its like using a digital scan FM radio!

The coolest WiFi hotspot in the World I think is in Brighton called Pier2Pier. It is free and they have four nodes covering the beach between the two piers (well one, since the other has collapsed). Even then, if I move from one spot of the beach to the other - I lose the signal even if I can see the antenna barely 20 meters away.

I feel that WiFi is all hyped up. But I also don't want it to fail. Just make it work first!

Generic PDA > 5mx > Vx > m505 > N770C > T625C > NR70V > e310 > m550 > h2210 > T/T3 & h4150
StarTac > T28m > T39m > T68m > T610 > T630 > K700i

RE: What's with the Wi-fi fixation?
vike @ 10/26/2004 12:50:52 PM #
It's not so much about what corner of the world we come from (although 6 USD a month is just plain unbelievable around here ;)) - it's about the brutal international roaming charges we all have to pay when we leave our respective corners of the world. Wifi (data/VOIP) is ultimately about giving the owner of a smartphone a choice. IMHO.

RE: What's with the Wi-fi fixation?
JonathanChoo @ 10/26/2004 1:13:13 PM #
correction: its £14.50 for o2 Data Plan 36 and not both £7 and £14.50.
RE: What's with the Wi-fi fixation?
Altema @ 10/26/2004 1:48:09 PM #
"WiFi is hardly obsolete, it's growing every day. Entire cities are deploying hundreds of square miles of coverage. It's faster than any other wireless standard. It allows you access to applications that you could never have over GPRS, or only at great difficulty. Try streaming music from your home PC over GPRS, or VNC, or a dozen other things. And, WiFi would mean that you could surf the internet and remain connected WITHOUT tying up the cell phone. Correct me if I'm wrong, but if you're using GPRS (or 1xRTT), isn't the phone essentially 'off the hook,' not accepting calls?"

I did not say Wifi was obsolete... only that 802.11b is obsolete. I know full well that Wifi is growing, but we've been focusing on 802.11g since last year, and making sure our hardware is backwards compatible with the B and A standards. For city-wide deployments, take a look at WiMax... broadband speeds at 30+ MILES. Now were talkin!

GPRS/GSM speed is an issue and I've run into that myself. We have a website where we can see a map of our corporation with the buildings changing from green if there are any network problems. We are firewalled, so I have to use a VPN client. Cingular does not allow VPN over GPRS, so I have to use the slower GSM dialup at 9.6k. Problem is that it takes about 10 seconds to download the page, and it refreshes ever 15 seconds. Not really useful! However, I do stream music to my handheld and it works very well over BT. Comes in handy because my office is out of range for everything else, and the 52 foot range I get is decent. Streaming music over a cellular GPRS connection is another story though, as only the low bitrate channels will work well.

BTW about being off the hook when using GPRS, that depends on your phone. Class C phones work as you describe, meaning you will miss any calls while online. My phone (SE-T616) is a class B GPRS device which can receive calls while online, but your data link goes "on hold" until you finish talking. Not the ultimate, but I never miss a call. Class A devices can do both data and voice at the same time, like the old Tungsten W.

RE: What's with the Wi-fi fixation?
AdamaDBrown @ 10/26/2004 9:49:37 PM #
802.11b may not be cutting edge, but it's what's available in handhelds, and it's still dead useful for all kinds of apps.

"For city-wide deployments, take a look at WiMax... broadband speeds at 30+ MILES. Now were talkin!"

Except that WiMax won't be available for a year or two, and won't be pocketable for probably a year after that. Not to mention the fact that, to my knowledge, the speed starts scaling down as range scales up.

RE: What's with the Wi-fi fixation?
pascanu @ 10/27/2004 5:32:58 AM #
If you need WiFi only for internet access then it might not be such a big issue. EDGE has enough speed to enable email/browsing at fairly "decent" speed. Browsing speed on a Palm is mainly dependent on the browser you use and processor speed = ability to redner web pages.
Both WiFi and EDGE have the same problem: availability. So IMHO weather you need Wifi is a matter of location, rather than remote computing habbits.

Handspring Visor -> m505 -> Zire71 -> Zire72

Does the 650 have a voice recorder on it?

cnegrad @ 10/25/2004 3:30:35 PM #
Does the 650 have a voice recorder on it? Also, where is the speaker located? Not on the back like the T5, I hope.

RE: Does the 650 have a voice recorder on it?
Felipe @ 10/25/2004 6:34:49 PM #
first reports say ir doesn't have the software included. the 600 had third party programs that would do this for you.

peaker is on the back. :(


dona83 @ 10/25/2004 4:21:22 PM #
My Treo 600 already rocks, yes as a PDA it was a bit on the mediocre side but as a phone with a PDA built in, it rocks. Hopefully the 320x320 screen and 312Mhz processor helps a lot, I'm sure it will. No more pixellated fonts in Docs to Go, I get to squint to see tiny hi-res fonts now woohoo! And hi-res videos on mmPlayer... mmmmm. Bluetooth, not useful unless they can get stereo hi quality sound but eh, I'll find a use for it. :) Better camera in low light, if it's the same as Zire 72 except VGA, I'll be more than a happy camper, although the same 1.2MP quality would've been nice.

I hope battery life didn't take a big hit because of these things.... I wanna be jamming my alternative rock tunes by day and hip hop tunes by night (Normsoft Pocket Tunes woohoo), the Treo 600 gave me 16-18 hours life, hopefully the 650 won't be that much lower.

Dual NAM?

cbomberg @ 10/25/2004 7:17:46 PM #
Anyone know if the CDMA version will have dual NAM capability? I keep two different accounts in my Verizon cell phone.

nice phone

tooele @ 10/25/2004 9:26:03 PM #
This may be the only thing that saves palmone after their poor perfornce releasing the TE2/TT5. It looks basically like a Z72 with a lower resolution camera. If they would have added WI-FI a better camera and more memory it would have been the ultimate smartphone. Even though it doesn't it's still a pretty nice smartphone.

Tungsten T3 + T610

ALL Flash RAM? Yuck.

Gekko @ 10/25/2004 10:28:55 PM #
>"It includes 32MB of non-volatile Flash RAM."

New Keyboard?

lab_monkee_see_all @ 10/26/2004 12:06:54 PM #
I thought the Treo 650 had redesigned keys? It looks like the same type of keys as the Treo600. Can anyone verify this?


RE: New Keyboard?
JonathanChoo @ 10/26/2004 1:14:59 PM #
The keys on the new keyboard is shaped with a small bend.

the old one does not. Also it seems from pictures that the keys are a little bigger too.

Not a fan of these QWERTY keypads. Wished they just put a numerical pad. With text predective it should be fine. Plus I have grafitti for the longer messages.

Generic PDA > 5mx > Vx > m505 > N770C > T625C > NR70V > e310 > m550 > h2210 > T/T3 & h4150
StarTac > T28m > T39m > T68m > T610 > T630 > K700i

RE: New Keyboard?
rsc1000 @ 10/26/2004 9:15:55 PM #
>>Not a fan of these QWERTY keypads. Wished they just put a numerical pad. With text predective it should be fine. Plus I have grafitti for the longer messages.

Hitting a tiny key 3 times to produce one character is not progress.

RE: New Keyboard?
JonathanChoo @ 10/27/2004 11:07:18 AM #
Yes, but atleast I can use it one handed while standing in the tube.
RE: New Keyboard?
kleinias @ 10/28/2004 12:35:16 AM #
>Yes, but atleast I can use it one handed while standing in the >tube.

Actually, one of the current Treo's strong suits is that you are able to use it one handed.

BT version?

Amanco @ 11/2/2004 6:56:17 AM #
What version of BT does it use?

RE: BT version?
Admin @ 11/2/2004 3:35:43 PM #
it uses Bluetooth v1.1
RE: BT version?
Amanco @ 11/8/2004 5:55:06 PM #
Thanks Admin... This means i can't use the new Jabra 800 headset ...

can this be upgraded using a software?

treo 650 trade up?

wesrubix @ 11/2/2004 3:30:46 PM #
anyone know if there will be a trade in / trade up program? I remember there was one for the older treos and the 600s...

Walt Mossberg Treo 650 Review

Gekko @ 11/29/2004 7:29:03 PM #

Sorry if this is a repost, but I did not see it posted.

I thought this was interesting:

>"Plus, in my tests, the preproduction Treo 650 I had crashed several times, and so did the Palm synchronization software, which has always been solid as a rock. PalmOne will have to solve these problems by launch."

October 28, 2004
New Treo 650 Is Better Than Ever, But Rivals Offer Some Alternatives

PalmOne's Treo smart phone has been the best combination of phone, PDA and e-mail device on the market. It had a few key flaws, though, so the company has now released a new, improved model, the Treo 650, to be sold by Sprint starting next month.

But the rest of the industry is catching on to the idea of making a phone that, like the Treo, actually has a full keyboard for banging out e-mails. So the competition will be tougher for the new Treo than it was for its predecessor.

Over the last week, I've been testing the new Treo 650, and comparing it with two other PDA phones that have now morphed into models with keyboards. One is the Microsoft-based Pocket PC phone. The other is the Sony Ericsson P910 smart phone, based on the Symbian operating system. I concentrated on the new keyboards in these two competitors because that's their main new feature. I have already reviewed another major Treo competitor, the new BlackBerry 7100t, sold by T-Mobile.

My verdict: The Treo is better than ever, but the two newest keyboard phones, like the new BlackBerry, will give some new options to mobile e-mail users who prefer different designs and different software.

The Treo 650, which Sprint will sell for $499 with a one-year service contract, looks much like its predecessor. But it boasts four big improvements. First, the screen now has four times the resolution of the 600's display. It is gorgeous and sharp. Second, the battery is now removable, so you can tote a spare to keep talking longer.

Third, the keyboard has been improved, with wider, flatter keys, a big help for people with larger fingers and longer fingernails. Fourth, the 650 has Bluetooth wireless networking, so you can use it with wireless headsets and cars that use Bluetooth for hands-free calling.

In my tests, the Treo 650 performed all its tasks well. It synchronized with my PC, made and received calls, and handled e-mail perfectly. Using the new Bluetooth feature, I was able to hook up a Logitech Bluetooth headset without any problems.

But there are some drawbacks. The internal memory available to the user is still paltry, at 23 megabytes, which is actually a little less than the 600 offered. There's no Wi-Fi wireless networking, and the built-in camera, while improved, is still low resolution at a time when other cellphone cameras are offering higher resolution.

Plus, in my tests, the preproduction Treo 650 I had crashed several times, and so did the Palm synchronization software, which has always been solid as a rock. PalmOne will have to solve these problems by launch.

Also, the 650 will have to hold up better in extended use than the 600 did. For some users, the old model was terribly unreliable, and had to be replaced, sometimes more than once. The company promises the new one will be tougher.

The Pocket PC PDAs with built-in phones have always had two big drawbacks compared with the Treo: They were too bulky, and they usually lacked keyboards. The new Audiovox PPC 6600, which Sprint will start selling soon at $629, doesn't solve the size problem. But it now has a handy keyboard, which slides out from beneath the unit.

The keyboard has membrane keys, which are often lousy for typing, but in this case, they work quite well. It has a solid feel, and, like the keyboards on the Treo and BlackBerry, it's smart. It automatically inserts apostrophes in common words like "I'm" and "they're," and it knows enough to capitalize the first letter after a period.

The Audiovox has much more available memory than the Treo, and it also has Bluetooth. Sprint and some other wireless carriers will also sell a model with a low-resolution camera, though the one I tested didn't have one.

But this new Pocket PC falls down in the area of one-handed navigation. With the Treo's five-way navigation control, you can do dozens of common tasks, such as starting a new e-mail or sending one, without using the stylus. But the similar-looking five-way control on the Audiovox is much more limited, so you're forced to use the stylus way too often.

The Sony Ericsson P900 was the best and sleekest Treo competitor to come out of Europe, but it lacked a keyboard. The new 910 version has a keyboard, which is hidden on the back side of its flip-down phone keypad. Alas, this keyboard is awful. It feels flimsy and wobbly, it's cramped, and it lacks navigation or tab keys. Worse, it's dumb, failing to automatically insert apostrophes or to capitalize letters after periods. And like the Pocket PC, it forces you to use the stylus much too often.

The Sony Ericsson is also expensive. It will cost around $700 when it goes on sale later this year, and consumers will have to activate it with their own phone-service plans, because the only U.S. carrier expected to sell it, AT&T (now absorbed by Cingular), will sell it only to businesses.

In my view, neither of these keyboard phones is as good as the Treo 650 or the BlackBerry 7100t. But at least consumers now have a wider choice in phones with keyboards, and their options are likely to improve.

Write to Walter S. Mossberg at

RE: Walt Mossberg Treo 650 Review
Admin @ 11/29/2004 7:45:29 PM #
that's his preliminary review of a pre-production model. I would post on pic when he fully reviews the device.
RE: Walt Mossberg Treo 650 Review
Gekko @ 11/29/2004 8:51:55 PM #
>"that's his preliminary review of a pre-production model. I would post on pic when he fully reviews the device."

Nice excuse, but it doesn't fly anymore. I remember you used that same lame excuse with the T5 crashes and that pig still ain't flying - one ROM Update down and more to come! You got the same T5 that was shipped and Mossberg got the same Treo 650 that was shipped - all the same crashes happened on the review AND the retail units purchased by members of these forums - me included.

Come on, man!

Go check out - there's more crash stories over there than after a Demolition Derby!!!!!

I take no satisfaction in Palm's demise, but I'm angry they let us all down.

RE: Walt Mossberg Treo 650 Review
svrontis @ 11/29/2004 10:50:22 PM #
Well, there are lots of other reviews out there too. Try this one from Business Week:



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