Comments on: palmOne NVFS Flash Memory Controversy
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RE: Well... I guess it IS a pig
They got it.
RE: Well... I guess it IS a pig
The 30% figure quoted in Ryan's article is just an average that seems to capture the problem as a whole. There have been some extreme cases reported that are much worse. One user reported their 300K address book database ballooning to over 1300K when moved from the Treo 600 to the 650. Those little a68k files that are normally around 84 bytes or so on a T3 become 2560 bytes on the 650 (5 records x 512 bytes per record). Of course, for some other files where the record size was already large to begin with the problem is much less, hence the 30% average. Your milage may vary.
A winner like the m130
PalmOnes quest for performance just crashed. This reminds me of the m130 and it's comparison to the m515. Palm got egg on their face with that disaster and it looks like the public is gearing up for them again.
Addicted to Palm
RE: A winner like the m130
The "Zen" is a distant memory. No pun intended.
Pat Horne; www.churchoflivingfaith.com
RE: A winner like the m130
[signature0]the secret to enjoying your job is to have a hobby that's even worse[/signature0]
[signature1]My PDAs: Visor --> Visor Neo (blue) --> Zire 71.... so ends the "marathon", for now[/signature1]
Gone are the old days....
An application (not using databases) I wrote takes 20K on regular palms. In both the T5 and the Treo650 it takes 28K. So it's not only databases that takes more space...
Nick
RE: Gone are the old days....
RE: Gone are the old days....
How dangerous NVFS Memory can become!!! I just wished that the Tungsten T5 used 64MB of "Shin" RAM instead of NVFS RAM. 192MB can be used as NVFS RAM instead. I got to see how much memory the Tungsten T5 uses with Sketch, and compare that with the Tungsten C.
I pledge to the Palm-Powered community that I will seek to make a better handheld through research one day!!!
RE: Gone are the old days....
Sketcher on the Tungsten T5--174KB Memory Used
Big Ole BLARG
I pledge to the Palm-Powered community that I will seek to make a better handheld through research one day!!!
RE: Gone are the old days....
You guys weren't happy with Palm's very efficient database system... and this is what happens.
I'm gonna get the Treo 650 anyway, it's a good device IMO despite the memory issue. I suppose once the program is in RAM it should run like a charm.
RE: Gone are the old days....
You guys weren't happy with Palm's very efficient database system... and this is what happens.
Get serious. Even though I feel strongly that Palm doesn't need to institute a desktop-type file system for RAM, the current problems all boil down to sloppy execution on Palm's part rather than any intrinsic problems there are with having a file system on Palms. Tapwave came up with their own filesystem solution and no one seems to be complaining too loudly about them. And had Palm spent the extra $10 to spec a 256 MB card, fixed the DataMangler bugs and fixed the backup "issues", the novel memory juggling would never have been mentioned beyond the developer groups. Instead, now we've got everyone - including Zire 21 owners - fearful because Palm has now given up on the three features that used to comprise the best parts of PalmOS: Simplicity, Efficiency, and Stability.
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Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
RE: Gone are the old days....
>You guys weren't happy with Palm's very efficient database system... and this is what happens.
That is the silliest thing I've heard. The Treo has the worst of both worlds. Still no real file system for seamless access to programs and data on storage cards and now their internal databases have been messed up to include insane amounts of slack space.
Pocket PCs have true file systems but they still maintain true databases for PIM and other system information. Maybe PalmOS7 will have this.
RE: Gone are the old days....
"Sketcher on the Tungsten T5--174KB Memory Used"
That is a huge jump! Out of curiosity, if you search through Filez, how many databases are attached to that app? (They should all have the same Creator ID)
When you view the size of the app through the Palm Info screen it returns the size of the app + the size of all the databases it includes.
RE: Gone are the old days....
We all experienced wasted storage space not only on our SD cards (I believe it to be 2kb) but also on our PCs (with its 4-64kb size).
Why complain now?
RE: Gone are the old days....
Imagine you buy a car that gives you 15 mpg. Then after some time, you buy the next model and you get a 10 mpg mileage (30% less). you may say: well why complaining, it's only 4.5 mpg. Also you may say that there are SUVs that makes well below 10 mpg, so it's fine if your car makes it.
Because Microsoft way of handling the file systems is bloated, it doesn't mean that Palm has to copy it. Progress is supposed to make thigs better not worse.
RE: Gone are the old days....
You guys weren't happy with Palm's very efficient database system... and this is what happens."
Nonsense and horse****. This has nothing to do with any file system. For that matter, the 50-odd megs of 'main' memory don't have an FS, so why is that affected? It's just the nature of flash memory.
RE: Gone are the old days....
Tungsten C: 88855 Bytes with 156 Records (N/A was the Record Indicator on palmOne's Info Screen)
On the Tungsten T5: 157184 Bytes with 156 Records (1 Record was the record indicator on palmOne's Info Screen)
BOTH have RCAD as the Creator
Even with FileZ--STILL BIG OLE BLARG
Powered by Palm OS since March 2002
If Palm doesn't fix this...
RE: If Palm doesn't fix this...
I pledge to the Palm-Powered community that I will seek to make a better handheld through research one day!!!
RE: If Palm doesn't fix this...
RE: If Palm doesn't fix this...
I pledge to the Palm-Powered community that I will seek to make a better handheld through research one day!!!
Data Manager Issue
(Do I root for this fix or the T3 keyboard driver?)
Welcome to the world of Microsoft!
All of you are now finding out what I came across three years ago: How just *2MB* of files in my S320 could max out an *8MB* MStick.
But what I wonder is... how come none of you saw this when dumping files onto your *SD* cards?!
Bummer...
I hope Palm marketing reads this board! You guys goofed big time. The problem with the 650 is a big one. I'm definitely not interested in that device any longer.
Just my $.02 worth. SIGH!
D. Martin
Former Amiga/Commodore Author/Writer/Reviewer
RE: Bummer...
If I grab a list of all the files / sizes off my palm and then round up to 512bytes it should give a pretty fair estimate of just how much space it uses in the new ram. Correct?
hmmm... I'll try it tonight and see.
RE: Bummer...
At least, this is what I've been reading.
RE: Bummer...
1) Use a program that can create a DOC file (WordSmith, f'rintance)
2) Create a DOC with just ONE WORD in it.
3) Save it to RAM.
4) Use Filez (NOT Files) to note its size (ie, 1K).
5) Use Filez to MOVE it to Internal.
6) Use Filez to note its size again.
Using FAT on a Memory Stick, that teeny 1K DOC takes up -- drumroll, please -- ** 16K **.
Is it as bad on the T5's Internal store?
RE: Bummer...
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Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
Flas Memory
keep cool ! As a matter of fact, all Flash RAM cannot delete info by bit/byte, but only by block. Accordingly info to be saved need to organised by block as well, to avoid data loss when deleting data.
In fact this structure applies to all SD cards etc. since ever, and has not caused any harm to anybody.
The discussion is rubbish. T5 and TREO650 memory is perfect.
The 30% is also just assumption, and depends a lot, of the data itself.
Gerhard
RE: Flas Memory
People have known how to store and update database data on block oriented file systems for more than half a century. It's not even a question of whether Palm uses the FAT file system, it's a question of how they represent databases on the FAT file system.
"The 30% is also just assumption, and depends a lot, of the data itself. "
Yes, 30% is only an average case. In the worst case, you might see a 10x or even 100x increase in the amount of memory.
"T5 and TREO650 memory is perfect."
The T5 and Treo650 are a testament to technical and managerial incompetence at PalmSource. Those handhelds are faster and more powerful than scientific workstations, desktop PCs, and Macintoshes of a few years ago, yet Palm can't even ship an operating system that reaches the capabilities of DOS 1.0. What's particularly stupid about it all is that PalmSource doesn't even have to develop anything: they could use dozens of open source and/or commercial kernels, libraries, and tools.
Let's hope PalmOne sees the light and starts using a different kernel and set of libraries on future handhelds. Since they are PalmSource licensees, they can even keep complete backwards compatibility with PalmOS 5 and earlier with not much effort.
RE: Flash Memory
Now we want to use our handhelds to read gigantic PDF documents, cut and paste piles of text from one side of a Word document to another, and listen to MP3's that are MEGABYTES long. So the old system would just not cut it. And Palm just picked one of the many readily available file systems to use---probably not for any reason other than the fact that FAT is very common.
Of course, FAT is STUPID for handheld devices, as Mike Cane points out. It wastes lots of space on small files, thusly burning valuable memory and creating fragmented, battery-sucking structures. I don't know if anyone has even designed a file system optimized for handhelds, but PalmSource obviously needs to locate or develop one.
The only question is, as always, will they survive long enough to make this change?
Palm Enthusiast since 1998
RE: Flas Memory
The thing that gets me is that OS5 devices can do all you mention just fine (unlike OS4 and below). I have individual files on my 1GB card that are over 200MB in size. Seems the only thing bought by going to flash is power loss retention.
RE: Flash Memory; PalmOS 5 needs to RETIRE.
These problems were to have been solved by PalmOS 6 (Cobalt). While I feel Palm would have been better off trying to look at the ARM Linux kernel as a potential starting point, Palm had to do something with all the Be engineers they had sitting around. So they used their own kernel and built everything from scratch. While it's nice to try to build a perfect, pretty OS, this takes time - especially given how many features the Be engineers have tried to cram into PalmOS 6 while still maintaining backward compatibility. In short, Palm "overengineered" PalmOS 6, it took too long to arrive, leaving the hardware makers stuck trying to force PalmOS 5 into doing things it has no business trying to do. PalmOS 5 reminds me of an aging boxer that is too poor to retire and keeps having to step into the ring against brutes half his age. The blows to the head are starting to add up and STILL there's no relief (PalmOS 6) in sight. Someone in PalmOS 5's corner should have thrown in the towel years ago...
I found it interesting to hear Dianne Hackborn (one of PalmSource's [ex-Be] senior engineers in charge of developing PalmOS 6) claim that PalmSource only had a few engineers working on their new kernel:
http://www.palminfocentre.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7258
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TVoR
"For PalmOS 6, I had expected that Palm would have been brave enough to think UNIX flavor + pretty GUI + PACE clone (the "emulator" I naively envisioned being folded into the Clean Sheet™ OS) running on modern 400MHz processors. Give 30 experienced engineers 1 year to bind all these elements together. I think it could have (and should have) been done."
Ms. Hackborn:
Easy claims, for someone who is essentially posting anonymously. Tell me, what is your engineering background to be able to make such a statement? Have you thought about these things:
* What the heck do you mean by "UNIX flavor"? Do you know what that is? (Bonus question: do you know what it is about the ARM architecture that makes it very difficult to efficiently implement the traditional Unix process model?) Are you talking about licensing an existing kernel like Linux or FreeBSD? Sure, licensing this stuff makes sense... which is why we licensed STREAMS for our IO subsystem. The kernel itself is a very small part -- we actually have only a few engineers working on ours, not much more than what would be needed to do customization and integration if we had licensed it. Oh and think about this: Be already had a fully functional Unix-like protected memory kernel, one that had been in production use for many years. Cobalt did not ship with the BeOS kernel. Are you saying the Be engineers are so stupid that they just kind-of forgot they had this thing?"
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Neither the Treo 650 nor the Tungsten "5" should have been released with PalmOS 5. But Palm is doing the best it can, coming up with as many kludges, hacks and fixes it can think of to keep things going. Their mistakes seem to be failing to spend adequate engineering resources on prepping PalmOS 5 for its latest challenge and then scrimping on memory in the Treo 650, thereby exposing the weakness of the OS + memory architecture. If Palm lacks the engineering skill to successfully extend PalmOS 5, they should admit this NOW and hire some outside engineering consultants. It would take a couple good people less than two weeks to fix most of the (many) bugs we've seen recently from Palm.
Enough bungling, Palm. Don't throw the fight with PPC.
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Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
Looks like Palm has found yet another way to screw up.
Giving away $15 128 MB SD cards to owners of NAND-crippled Palmsdoesn't change the fact that with NAND Flash Palm is now completely fcuked. And the switch to proprietary databases was a slap in the face to third party developers (who MADE Palm a success in the first place). Palm's arrogant attitude towards developers like DateBk 5's CES Dewar might be all it takes to drive more people into porting their apps to PPC.
Cobalt is DOA.
PalmOS 5 is choking on all the crap Palm is asking it to do.
NAND Flash bites.
Palm doesn't give a rat's a$$ about usability, stability or compatibility anymore.
What else could go wrong? I suppose next we're going to start hearing reports of Tungsten 5's breaking. There are already complaints of poor voice quality with the Treo 650. Yikes.
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Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
RE: Flas Memory
Who's to Blame ... PSRC or PLMO?
Surely Palmsource would not bank their future on this huge backward step. Does OS6 address anything related to non-volitale storage that could make this disaster short-lived like Sony's proprietary 320x320 screen api's on OS4?
Pat Horne; www.churchoflivingfaith.com
RE: Palm's Self-Destruction
RE: Palm's Self-Destruction
Please dance for us some more, Jester Cane.
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Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
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Well... I guess it IS a pig
Dammit. If palmone can sell this god-awful device at 400 dollars, I might just consider getting a palmsource license myself -- and do it right.