Comments on: Rumor: Palm to Release a Linux Feature Phone?
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RE: Good or Better of
That and the question whether this would be a Treo or (as LinuxDevices suggested) some kind of feature phone--those are the burning questions. Their feature phone argument isn't making a lot of sense to me, but this whole thing is pretty crazy sounding.
It's actually the weirdest Palm news I've heard in a very long time.
David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog
RE: Good or Better of
Pat Horne; www.churchoflivingfaith.com
RE: Good or Better of
You can say that again...
"People who think they're smart annoy those of us who are."
RE: Good or Better of
Treo 700w (Q1)
www.palm.com/us/images/company/about_feature_photo.jpg" rel=nofollow target="_new">http://palmone.r3h.net/www.palm.com/us/images/company/about_feature_photo.jpg
Treo 800w (Q2)
http://www.churchoflivingfaith.com/images/treo800w.jpg
Pat Horne; www.churchoflivingfaith.com
RE: Good or Better of
RE: Good or Better of
I'm guessing this is some kyocera or samsung phone, or maybe moto.
--
http://www.arpx.net/article.php/top_10_palmos_applications - my top 10 apps
Clarification
https://portal.windriver.com/news/press/pr.html?ID=2662
...states that a commercial grade version of Linux will be ready by November 2005. The way I'm reading this is that the back end of PalmLinux is now approaching a finished stage and that a *prototype* device may now exist within the company. My guess is that the Palm overlay for this version of Linux isn't ready yet at a commercial level and that the PalmWind device won't be ready until at least spring of next year
RE: Good or Better of
Inquiring minds wanna know!
And...
Why does ANYONE think PALM would be doing PALMSOURCE'S developing in Linux for PALM'S use? Why not think instead that PALM looks at how deficient PALMSOURCE is/has been and simply said "Hey! We modified PalmOS extensively ourselves! We can go it alone with Linux, too!"?
RE: Good or Better of
Maybe the same reason people always get confused about Linux. The name is used in two ways (one correct and the other loose) and people--especially in the press--get them mixed up all the time. Correctly speaking, Linux is not an operating system. It's a kernel on which you can build an operating system. But people also often refer to operating systems built on Linux as being "Linux."
We're told that Palm OS for Linux is designed to be kernel-agnostic so it can run on different Linux kernels (including, theoretically, a kernel with patches maintained by WindRiver). However, as far as I can see, WindRiver's "commercial grade Linux product" is an operating system, or "platform"--i.e. it's a substitute for Palm Linux, not a potential ingredient.
David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog
RE: Good or Better of
You misread the posts, fool. :)
Palm Linux refers to a Palm API compatability layer that is expected to be able to run on a number of different Linux distros. Wind River linux is rumored to be one of the distros Palm Linux will be built on: http://www.linuxdevices.com/news/NS6692714302.html
Ergo, any specific device may run *both* Palm Linux and Wind River Linux. Fool. :)
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"People who like M$ products tend to be insecure crowd-following newbies lacking in experience and imagination."
Out of left field
I can fantasize, but to be honest I'm really wondering how credible this source is.
David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog
RE: Out of left field
Is this just the author confusing Palm and Palmsource or is there some implied relationship or collaboration between Wind River, Palm, and Palmsource on this phone?
RE: Out of left field
That certainly would be a great rationalization for accepting bill's $$$ to make a treo with a "start" button... :)
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"People who like M$ products tend to be insecure crowd-following newbies lacking in experience and imagination."
RE: Out of left field
RE: Out of left field
But seriously. No-one actually *pays* for wince, right? I mean, that should be really obvious.
This is easy to prove: m$ refuses to break out the wince numbers. If wince really was making any money, why would m$ be ashamed? :)
Of course, some "licensees" might have to pay a token amount per unit, for example around $5 for a unit priced at over $600. This is obviosly far less than cost, but still amounts to tens of thousands for many "licensees". The flip side is that m$ provides extensive "free" engineering support to licensees, completely offsetting the token abount per unit.
m$ isn't interesting in making money from Dell or HP on a per unit basis. m$ wants to capture the *market*. At the moment the market is owned by Palm, but m$ has been dumping cash into its money-losing wince business for years trying to capture market share.
The amazing thing is that despite competing for years against a convicted monopolist who is prepared to effectively dump billions of cash into licensees just to capture market share, Palm has still succeeded in developing a financially viable model, maintaining the largest user base, developer base, and application base in the market, and it continues to absolutely dominate the smartphone market.
Pretty cool, actually! :)
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"People who like M$ products tend to be insecure crowd-following newbies lacking in experience and imagination."
RE: Out of left field
Surur
I'm not the LEAST bit surprised
Back during the Access buyout news, I proposed a 3-tier strategy for Palm's lineup:
Basic PDAs: FrankenGarnet
Flagship PDAs and Treos: PLinux
Flagship Treo: WinMob
I never figured that Palm would necessarily go with PalmSource's Plinux exclusively. When the news of the hirings for Linux engineers emerged, I even suggested that Palm was going to attempt to go it alone with their "own" (kinda like IBm tried with the PC Jr.) Linux OS and/or buy the IP for Garnet & Cobalt from Access and try to meld it all into one big mobile OS, picking the best bits from each one.
This is going to only throw yet another monkeywrench into the devloper community. They would now have to conceivably support:
Garnet
Cobalt (assuming an Asian licensee ever ships a device)
Palm's Linux
PalmSource Linux
WinMob
This fragmentation is NOT a good sign for anyone other than Palm's short term sales outlook.
RE: Out of left field
This is going to only throw yet another monkeywrench into the devloper community
Not if it's a feature phone platform it won't. There won't be a developer community outside of Palm and the mobile operators.
David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog
RE: Out of left field
No-one actually *pays* for wince, right?...This is easy to prove: m$ refuses to break out the wince numbers.
Actually, the Mobile and Embedded division, for which Windows Mobile is the major product, has revenue of about $280 million a year.
At the moment the market is owned by Palm
You never answered my question, D.O. Do you acknowledge that Windows devices outsell Palm, yes or no?
Kirvin 101
Don't waste your time. Kirvin realizes that he can't effectively debate, so he's resorted to his current "Dr Opinion" pseudonym. He thinks now he can post as many lies and insults as he wants now because he's "anonymous". Too bad his posts just make Palm/PalmSource look even more idiotic.
Kirvin is chickensh**
TVoR
------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------
The Palm eCONomy = Communism™
The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038
NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823
RE: Out of left field
Let's just recap on the points you can't refute one more time:
(1) m$ refuses to break out the wince numbers, clearly demonstrating it is a money-losing business. :)
(2) Wince "licensees" pay a token amount at most, but m$ provides extensive "free" engineering support to licensees, so much so that in real terms m$ actually *pays* "licensees" to ship wince devices.
(3) m$ wants to capture the *market*. At the moment the market is owned by Palm, but m$ has been dumping cash into its money-losing wince business for years trying to capture market share.
(4) Palm has still succeeded in developing a financially viable model, maintaining the largest user base, developer base, and application base in the market, and it continues to absolutely dominate the smartphone market... all this despite the fact that Palm and PalmSource compete with a massive monopolist who is actually paying manufacturers to take it's product! Hilarious!
Go PIC! I love this place. :)
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"People who like M$ products tend to be insecure crowd-following newbies lacking in experience and imagination."
RE: Out of left field
Congratulations D.O. Trolling at its finest. You make Palm supporters look real bad.
Oops, forgot the smilie :) Now I can say any bull I want, cant I? :)
Surur :)
RE: Out of left field
You make Palm supporters look real bad.
Which is obviously the whole point. I concluded long ago that Dr O = TVoR. Out of disappointment that Jeff Kirvin wouldn't let him crap all over the 1src forums TVoR figured he'd create his own caricatured "artists conception" of Jeff Kirvin right here. This is supposed to show how stupid people are to be enthusiastic about the Palm platform and to prove that when TVoR "isn't around" PIC gets taken over by these zombies.
Yes, he's that sick in the head.
At some point he'll probably get bored with this game and probably start posting as the old TVoR personality again. I'm not sure which is worse.
David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog
Ryan, can you stop the LIES from Beersy and Dr Opinion?
Yes, he's that sick in the head.
At some point he'll probably get bored with this game and probably start posting as the old TVoR personality again. I'm not sure which is worse.
Beersy, if you really believe that, you're an even bigger idiot than I thought you were. (Unless, of course, YOU are helping Kirvin with these retarded Dr Opinion posts.)
Ryan can confirm that I'm posting from a (VERY) different location than your "friend", Doc Op. People like you and Kirvin try to get too clever for their own good and end up making all Palm supporters look bad. Stop posting obvious lies about me. Don't make me have to break my foot off in your a$$... Again.
TVoR
------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------
The Palm eCONomy = Communism™
The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038
NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823
RE: Out of left field
It is almost but not quite entirely unentertaining in an amusingly sad and boring way.
RE: Out of left field
I'm actually starting to think D.O. is actually David Schlesinger. They both have the same level of paranoia regarding paid MS posters and poor connection with reality
e.g.
Interesting take on the situation. Let's see: All the PocketPC manufacturers on the planet, added up together, command no more than 20% of the PDA market share. Handspring, all by itself, has between 20 and 30%.Someone's getting their collective asses kicked, but it doesn't seem to be Palm.
http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=2296#21194
Surur
Linux Feature Phone
Or could it be that Jeff Hawkings mutterings about a "Secretive Third Business" have started to be unearthed?
There's certainly scope for Palm to shake things up now that PalmSource has been taken from the isolated limb Palm had left them on.
But remember... in this game, on this site, there's often smoke without fire!
Have a good weekend all,
KultiVator
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### Russian Doll Logic ~ 1+1+1+1+1 = 1 ###
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RE: Linux Feature Phone
Interestingly, if they are branching of into feature phones running Linux, which would explain explain the Linux job listings on Palm's site, does this mean Palm feels they could do the new OS thing better and faster than PSRC? Are they actually divorcing themselves from PalmOS?
Surur
RE: Linux Feature Phone
Yeah, obviously Palm has hacked together an entire Palm OS compatible linux distribution on the side. That makes perfect sense. Moron.
> "...Are they actually divorcing themselves from PalmOS?..."
Even more likely is that they are divorcing themselves from wince. Expect to see a news release to the effect of "we just couldn't bring ourselves to pollute our gorgeous Treo hardware with buggy wince garbage. At the last minute we decided to yank that lousy OS and ship with Linux instead." :)
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"People who like M$ products tend to be insecure crowd-following newbies lacking in experience and imagination."
RE: Linux Feature Phone
Its a bit senseless responding to your comments, but just to clarify, who says their new OS was POS compatible?
Surur
RE: Linux Feature Phone
What the article is saying is that palm started making this move long ago, just like WM move. Palmsource decided to follow, but it's gonna take time. In the meantime, Palm still has to make products.
So they've decided to go with a feature phone (that lacks the ability to install new apps).
Probably see PIM, Web browser, camera, maybe a media player. Then thats it, you get what Palm gives you. I can see how carriers would love it as it would reduce their support costs. No complaints of incompatibility.
RE: Linux Feature Phone
While I think this "leak" is highly dubious, I want to remind everyone that Palm OS for Linux is not the only Linux work that PalmSource has been up to. China MobileSoft had been working on a Linux feature phone platform well before they were acquired last December and PalmSource has said on more than one occasion that they were letting CMS continue to conduct this work since their business has been growing very nicely in China.
So, just because Palm OS for Linux isn't ready doesn't mean that PalmSource doesn't have a feature phone platform ready for Palm via their CMS subsidiary.
What doesn't jive, though, is that I'm pretty sure I remember hearing that CMS produced their own Linux distro and this news says specifically that Palm is using a Wind River distro. Still, Linux kernels are relatively substitutable, so Palm may have licensed the CMS Linux platform and switched out the kernel to get something they wanted from it (features or support from Wind River).
To those who keep asking "what's a feature phone?" the most salient factor that differentiates a feature phone from a smartphone is that feature phones do not allow users to install any 3rd party applications other than Java apps. It's conceivable (but still, I think, unlikely) that CMS or Palm have developed PalmOS-like PIM applications that run on a feature phone platform and sync with Outlook and/or Palm Desktop via SyncML. That was PalmSource's announced plan, but I'd be surprised if it was ready this soon.
David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog
RE: Linux Feature Phone
It's called Marketing 101: "Compete where you have a competitive advantage". Palm's competitive advantage is its superior developer base, installed base, and huge application collcetion (dwarfing both wince and symbian combined).
Get with the program. :)
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"People who like M$ products tend to be insecure crowd-following newbies lacking in experience and imagination."
RE: Linux Feature Phone
Surur
RE: Linux Feature Phone
Surur, I know this is embarassing, but you actually wrote: "...does this mean Palm feels they could do the new OS thing better and faster than PSRC? Are they actually divorcing themselves from PalmOS?..."
That's quite possible the single most stupid post on this entire story. And it was at 8pm. You can't even claim you'd just got back from clubbing, chasing babes, and smoking crack. :)
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"People who like M$ products tend to be insecure crowd-following newbies lacking in experience and imagination."
RE: Linux Feature Phone
What OS obstacles are in the way of the Treo meeting the RIM Blackberry in a One-on-One market battle to the finish? Symbian, POS, and WinMob.
How might Palm once again have a hardware/software product over which they have complete control to be back on the very pinacle of a growing market? Buy writing their own Linux sollution for thier own phone. They couldn't buy back POS. They can't get control of Symbian and certainly not WinMob. But, all alone they can do a Linux phone that takes their newly admired Treo and offers 90% of what most users want to do with it.
I won't want one, but it might be quite nice.
RE: Linux Feature Phone
> "...What OS obstacles are in the way of the Treo meeting the RIM Blackberry in a One-on-One market battle to the finish?..."
Well, look at it from RIMs perspective. What OS obstacles are in the way of RIM beating the Treo to the #1 spot? Easy. There are effectively no applications for RIM devices, and no expansion.
> "...uy writing their own Linux sollution for thier own phone. They couldn't buy back POS..."
Well, there's no way they wrote a Linux disto in two and a half weeks following their inability to buy POS. The reasons for this phone have nothing to do with PalmSource/ACCESS.
Obviously this phone was going to be just another line alongside Palm OS devices. This allows Palm to get real Linux experience in advance of the new Palm Linux devices to come. :)
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"People who like M$ products tend to be insecure crowd-following newbies lacking in experience and imagination."
RE: Linux Feature Phone
How might Palm once again have a hardware/software product over which they have complete control to be back on the very pinacle of a growing market? Buy writing their own Linux sollution for thier own phone. They couldn't buy back POS. They can't get control of Symbian and certainly not WinMob. But, all alone they can do a Linux phone that takes their newly admired Treo and offers 90% of what most users want to do with it.
I'm thinking you're right, Timothy.
Recall that we heard rumblings that Palm was investigating Linux last year around this time--before there was any news that PalmSource was looking at Linux: http://news.zdnet.com/2100-1040_22-5438347.html?tag=nl
I'm pretty convinced that PalmSource wouldn't have decided on their move to Linux (which they had to realize would totally "Osborne" Palm OS Cobalt) if they hadn't talked it over with Palm and gauged their interest. That discussion probably began a long time before the CMS acquisition and Palm has most likely been building its Linux chops on its own during that time. Palm has said that it's waiting for Palm Linux before it phases out Garnet for its handhelds, but it never said it's been waiting for PalmSource with regard to its mobile phones.
Now that we know the Windows Mobile part of that ZDNet article was correct, it adds some credibility to the idea that Palm has been working with Linux "for some time." It would stand to reason that they wouldn't try to do something that duplicated PalmSource's work (porting Cobalt to a Linux kernel). And since Hawkins has always stressed the need for Palm to get onto some less expensive phone hardware they may very well have been working on a simpler feature-phone type platform that would power some lower cost Treos.
The more I think about this and recall the news we've had from Palm over the last year or two the more I'm starting to warm to the idea that this could actually be real. I'm thinking that Palm may have developed a feature phone that has Palm OS compatible PIM and email apps and HotSync capability for easy migration from non-phone Palm devices. It might or might not have a touchscreen. In other words, something very much like the Blackberry.
Not only would this put Palm in a great position to challenge RIM directly with an aggressively priced non-Palm OS Treo, but the experience developing a Linux phone would be invaluable as they prepared to develop Palm Linux devices.
David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog
RE: Linux Feature Phone
RE: Linux Feature Phone
That's just stupid.
Palm sold PalmSource specifically because it didn't require or want control of the operating system... there are sufficient contracts between the two entities that if ACCESS or any other owner decided to stop shipping the Palm OS, Palm has recourse to take back the code and continue development on its own. This should be obvious... as soon as PalmSource was floated, m$ could have just snapped up PalmSource shares at a huge premium and just closed the company.
The license contracts between Palm and PalmSource prevent that sort of thing. :)
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"People who like M$ products tend to be insecure crowd-following newbies lacking in experience and imagination."
RE: Linux Feature Phone
Now, they are a ship with an engine room that is owned by someone else. You can make up all the nonsense you wish about PalmOne taking back bits of PalmSource code when Access starts restricting their use of it, but that is just plain nonsense. The reason I am daily growing less likely to buy another Palm model is that the mismash mangling of the OS is making my device nasty. Just plain nasty.
I am as negative about Microsoft as you are, but Microsoft could never have purchased PalmSource. The US FTC would never have allowed it. As it is Microsoft has not stolen Palm's business. Palm threw my business into the toilet with their foolish moves to line the pockets of their execs with $millions$.
You and who else?
I wonder where the recently-NonPerson, Celeste Baranski, went.
And why.
RE: Linux Feature Phone
Oh, I'm sure she just went undercover to become VP of Engineering for Jeff Hawkins' secret "third business."
David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog
RE: Linux Feature Phone
Not only is that a lousy sentence, it simply isn't true.
The licensing agreements between Palm and PalmSource guarantee the right sort of access to the code. PalmSource was a public company and any competitor could have bought the OS and shutdown the license.
Suggesting that the FTC would have intervened to protect the independence of the Palm OS is astonishingly naive... I'm sure you'll find you can't recall a single occasion in m$ history when the FTC has intervened to prevent their acquisition of a competitor simply to shut it down.
Some examples include Citrix Server and Virtual PC, both of which had to be killed because they undermined m$ per-PC pricing, improved maintainance (reducing the number of MCSEs required), or otherwise commoditized the m$ platform. Remember, complexity and maintenance difficulties are *costs* to Corporate America, but they are *revenue* for m$.
How did m$ avoid FTC intervention? Simple. m$ has continued to *sell* both products! It's just that the pricing structure m$ charges render them both irrelevant nich products. :)
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"People who like M$ products tend to be insecure crowd-following newbies lacking in experience and imagination."
RE: Linux Feature Phone
On the other point of whether or not Palm needs or wants control of its own OS, well, if they don't want or need it, why did they just bid every penny they could beg borrow or steal and more to try to buy back that control? (OK, I write lousy sentences, but you still seem able to get my point well enough to respond with stuff that just barely shows you followed me, but also clearly shows that you are not really up to serious debate.)
I'll tell you why they are fighting tooth and nail to regain that control. It is because they see that the company most successful at making a good living by selling products that compete with MS has control of its OS; OSX, and its hardware; Mac and iPod. The last time Palm was making serious profits was way back then when they owned both.
RE: Linux Feature Phone
Now, here, I give you the example of Microsoft Money and MS not being able to just buy its way to control of the home budget software market and since it shows my point that MS could never be allowed by the FTC to buy PSCS, you again can't respond so you just go elsewhere to spout more falsehoods.
RE: Linux Dumb Phone, iPhone, iPad/iPalm
The DoJ blocked a $1.5 BILLION buyout of Intuit (maker of Quicken) around 10 years ago. http://news.com.com/How+Intuit+bested+Microsoft/2030-1012_3-5100925.html Microsoft simply then continued to develop Microsoft Money and now has similar marketshare as Quicken and is arguably a better program. (At least Money 2003 was better - Microsoft butchered the program when they updated it in 2004; users are now better off buying a new copy of Money 2003 off eBay for $10...)
On the other point of whether or not Palm needs or wants control of its own OS, well, if they don't want or need it, why did they just bid every penny they could beg borrow or steal and more to try to buy back that control? (OK, I write lousy sentences, but you still seem able to get my point well enough to respond with stuff that just barely shows you followed me, but also clearly shows that you are not really up to serious debate.)
I'll tell you why they are fighting tooth and nail to regain that control. It is because they see that the company most successful at making a good living by selling products that compete with MS has control of its OS; OSX, and its hardware; Mac and iPod. The last time Palm was making serious profits was way back then when they owned both.
Precisely. The sham "split" of Palm has now come back to bite them in the a$$. Without control of PalmOS, Palm is nothing. They can't compete with the Big Boys as "Just Another WinMob Licensee" (JAWL) and while a freshly-rolled Linux-based OS running PIM apps (JAVA???) that are compatible with Palm Desktop sounds peachy, the real value of Palm has been the platform's flexibility through expansion with add-on applications. Having an EXCLUSIVE right to PalmLinux (i.e. PACE + Linux kernel) is the only way Palm can compete with the Big Boys in the long run. Without a popular proprietary OS to run Palm hardware, why would anyone pay a premium to get Palm's hardware when so many other cheaper options are available? Apple's tight integration of MacOS and Apple hardware is the perfect example. Were it not for the iPod, Apple's recent decision to switch to Intel processors would likely be suicidal. Hackers have already figured out how to make the Intelligent Mac OS beta run on ANY Intel processor, so now why will anyone wanting MacOS pay through the nose to get Apple hardware? Simple: they won't. Instead of buying that $2000 Apple computer, they'll just buy a $1000 Dell and install MacOS themselves. Apple can kiss their hardware sales goodbye.
But by then - since Apple is no longer a computer company - maybe they won't really care. By next year Apple will have probably moved on to its next BOFFO fad consumer electronics devices: iPhone (stylish phone, MPs player with 4 GB memory) and iPad [code name: iPalm!] (stylish Nokia 770-type device with OLED screen, built in cellphone radio, (optional) integrated Bluetooth headset, Bluetooth, Wi-Fi, web browser, email, PIM, seamless integration with iTunes [one-button access to Apple's online music store!] and (finally!) a simplified interface for encoding + managing videos. The video software will (of course) initially not allow for copy-protected DVDs to be encoded, but a hack will mysteriously surface about 12 minutes after the iPad goes on sale.
Jobs is one bada$$ mofo...
TVoR
------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------
The Palm eCONomy = Communism™
The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038
NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823
What features.
In feature phones Palm is not a big fish in a small pond anymore. They are a minnow in the wide blue ocean, competing against myriad phone companies selling 600 000 000 phones a year. I don't think they stand a chance.
Surur
RE: What features.
RE: What features.
Pat Horne; www.churchoflivingfaith.com
RE: What features.
http://www.worth1000.com/entries/187500/187588MRtq_w.jpg
... may work for them?
Pat Horne; www.churchoflivingfaith.com
RE: What features.
BeOS - how much did they pay for this?
Cobalt - how much did they waste on this?
My cell phone has a java web browser and I guess java tools (calendar, notepad, calculator,etc). Why couldn't palmsource make a non touch screen version that could be sold to power every cell phone? If I wanted a linux pda, I would have bought a zaurus.
I'm still looking for an upgrade to my two year old tungsten c and there doesn't seem to be anything in the pipeline.
---
David
RE: What features.
With all the Palm users and ex-Palm users around, somebody could make a decent pile of money if they developed a Palmesque UI replacement to go over existing Windows Mobile and Java devices. Mix in StyleTap's compatibility environment, and you've got yourself a winner. Makes me kind of wish that I could program in something more complex than JavaScript.
RE: What features.
You have a very good point: phones running wince don't really qualify for the "smart phone" category for obvious reasons -- lack of software base, closed development environment, etc.
It's perfectly obvious that a wince phone with a palm gui would fall into the feature phone category.
Good point. :)
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"People who like M$ products tend to be insecure crowd-following newbies lacking in experience and imagination."
RE: What features.
...what in the hell are you talking about? (somehow, I'm getting deja vu writing this post) Like the last time I posted like this, I'll just hope it's sarcasm and move along.
RE: What features.
I just wonder what feature Palm could bring to a feature phone.
Could be very simple: PIM applications that sync with Palm Desktop or Outlook. Think of it as a way to get those existing Palm OS PDA users who mostly use them for the built-in apps to step up to a Palm-branded phone.
This is one of the things PalmSource said they were going to work on with their CMS subsidiary, who was already well along with the development of a Linux-based feature phone platform at the time of the acquisition.
David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog
RE: What features.
http://www.palmsource.com/about/cms_feature.html
"The user interface is easy to customize, and the tools and development environment make it simple for vendors to add new applications to differentiate their products."
This platform doesn't come with much in the way of PIM, other than a phone book, but if the above statement is true it might not have been too hard for Palm to have created Palm-like PIM apps that are data-compatible with the ones on existing Palm OS devices and sync with Palm Desktop. They may even have got a lot of help with this from the CMS engineers, since this was an objective PalmSource said they had in mind as recently as April of this year.
Still doesn't quite past the smell test with me, but it's starting to seem a bit less far-fetched.
David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog
RE: What features.
I think there might be something to that. I know when I was a Palm guy I would have loved to have this. I'm not interested in a treo, but I little phone that would have my PIM stuff exactly replicated would have created a huge blip on my radar screen.
RE: What features.
So, if there is anything at all to this news I don't see any particular reason to believe that PalmSource or CMS would be involved.
David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog
RE: What features.
Ah, right, gotcha.
RE: What features.
Or over GPE ( http://gpe.handhelds.org/ ). It's not quite Ready For Prime Time yet, but it wouldn't be too difficult to hack a Palm OS-style UI for it.
RE: What features.
(That is to say, kiddies, not a snowball's chance in he11).
No one cares about how many "ex" users of anything are around. If it costs $ to support a legacy standard (G1, VHS, the Universal Connector, DVORAK , Win 9x, etc) then they just condemn it to oblivion and keep creaking forward in the name of progress.
RE: What features.
Oh please. Has anyone who talks about Styletap actually tried it? It's awful! A complete non-starter outside a tiny niche of seriously desperate users.
David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog
RE: What features.
It just seems a bit pointless, but then people do pointless things all the time, else the luxury industry would not exist.
Surur
RE: What features.
Even better, why not do a full screen wince skin for Palm Linux?
That way wince users could finally enjoy a stable OS that can actually hotsync reliably, they'd have access to loads of great applications, and they'd still be able to have the reassurance of a big goofy start button. Sweet! :)
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"People who like M$ products tend to be insecure crowd-following newbies lacking in experience and imagination."
RE: What features.
>know how to waste tons of money big time.
LOL, that's all that really needs to be said.
Wind River is rumored to be base distro for Palm Linux
I would consider it astonishingly premature to imagine that Palm Linux was that close to completion.
If Wind River really is the base distro for Palm Linux, it certainly would not be inconceivable for Palm to want to ship a couple of Linux-only devices early to increase their comfort level with the platform.
Later Palm can upgrade the line to include the advanced Palm Linux devices equipped with the Palm OS compatability layer.
Interesting times... :)
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"People who like M$ products tend to be insecure crowd-following newbies lacking in experience and imagination."
Linux Clamshell Device
RE: Linux Clamshell Device
--------------------------------------
Psion5 -> PalmV -> Filofax -> iPAQ5450 (stolen after 2 month) -> Clié SJ22 -> iPAQ2210 -> TungstenE -> Tungsten T3 (broken) -> Zire 21 & Clié TJ-35
RE: Linux Clamshell Device
Verizon's LG VX9800 and the T-Mobile Sidekick are two perfect examples of featurephones.
RE: Linux Clamshell Device
Says who?
David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog
RE: Linux Clamshell Device
Very interesting, can you elaborate? :)
One of the biggest barriers to entry into the cell phone market is the huge amount of work needed to get devices through the process for the carriers.
Having made the Treo an incredible success, Palm presumably has a competitive advantage here. Coupled with relatively low cost of developing on Linux, you can see how Palm might have a huge amount of success by adding a sub-Treo phone line. Palm Treo is the top brand name in smartphone, so maybe Palm could capitalize on "Treo Lite" or something. :)
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"People who like M$ products tend to be insecure crowd-following newbies lacking in experience and imagination."
RE: Linux Clamshell Device
More like the imminent Nokia 770 then? Do share. :)
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"People who like M$ products tend to be insecure crowd-following newbies lacking in experience and imagination."
RE: Linux Clamshell Device
The issue that I'm not sure who would actually buy one of these...
JLM.
RE: Linux Clamshell Device
You got me thinking... I'm kinda liking your story now!
David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog
Several irons in the fire.
Palm is bleeding. To slow the blood loss they're putting several irons in the fire, hoping that one of them will lead to survival. New (but old) Garnet devices, Windows Mobile, Palm Linux (with Palm Source), and now a collaboration with Wind River Linux to produce low cost dumb phones.... IMHO this is the work of a confused and frightened company.
This new device surely has a dual purpose: to break Palm into the low cost (and easy to use) phone market whilst simultaneously weakening Palm's dependency on Palm Source. If by some miracle this stunt actually works, and palm makes a profit from making feature phones, we might just witness a complete change in business model for Palm (if we aren't witnessing that right now).
RE: Several irons in the fire.
If they named their phone the Palm Pilot, or something of that sort, they'd have 100% brand recognition among the general public. sigh.
RE: Several irons in the fire.
That's stupid. Ignoring non-cash items they generated around $140MM cash from operations, and around $30MM profit last year. Hardly "bleeding".
> "...IMHO this is the work of a confused and frightened company..."
You are clearly not particularly good at this kind of thing. The experts say "buy": http://finance.yahoo.com/q/ao?s=PALM
> "...This new device surely has a dual purpose..."
Yes. Palm could benefit by building institutional experience in delivering great Linux products, and quite likely Wind River Linux in particular.
It's that simple. :)
------
"People who like M$ products tend to be insecure crowd-following newbies lacking in experience and imagination."
RE: Several irons in the fire.
I stand corrected... Palm made $66MM in profit last year. Even better. ;)
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"People who like M$ products tend to be insecure crowd-following newbies lacking in experience and imagination."
This is BS
JLM.
RE: This is BS
All the pieces are out there, just waiting for a little integration and tweaking by Palm:
Linux OS from Wind River: http://tinyurl.com/8ogb3
Application framework for tweaking: http://tinyurl.com/dz4wr
And hardware designed to run the above: http://tinyurl.com/bm4st
3rd party developers like me might shed a few more tears, but it'd be a killer move by Palm. And it wouldn't really be terrible news for PalmSource since the data compatibility would make these phones a natural step up toward a full-fledged Palm OS for Linux phone in a couple of years.
David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog
RE: This is BS
JLM.
RE: This is BS
Are you saying you *know* it's false (as in you have inside information) or you just don't think it adds up?
I'll give you this: if Palm is really adding a new non-Palm OS Linux OS to its stable, Ed Colligan is a bald-faced liar since he directly and categorically denied that this was the case at the recent press conference. I'm still not sure I believe he'd tell such a lie in such a widely watched public venue when it would so soon be revealed as such.
All I can say is that a Palm-like Linux features phone with a Treo-type form factor--if it could be sold cheaply enough--would be a great idea.
David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog
RE: This is BS
To do so would open the company to thousands of irate shareholders (or those who short, for example!) taking them to court and successfully suing.
Ain't gonna happen.
RE: This is BS
RE: This is BS
I'm horrified that you'd want to put these poor people out of a job. :)
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"People who like M$ products tend to be insecure crowd-following newbies lacking in experience and imagination."
RE: This is BS
That's not exactly true but I agree that it seems that way a lot of the time. What you need to realize is that for the people who post here Palm devices really *are* an important part of their lives, not just a tool that they indifferently pull out of a drawer once in a while. There's a lot of unreasoned negativity, it's true, and a lot of crassness and personal attack that is totally gratuitous. But there's also a lot of bright people. If you can get past the bad behavior of a few people you'll start to see that most of the frustration that you get from folks here stems from the fact that they have really high expectations and a strong vision of what Palm OS devices should be. That's the good side of what otherwise often looks like a train wreck on PIC.
Stick around. Not everyone here is jaded about the Palm platform--some of us are still pretty jazzed--and if you really care about Palm devices you might learn some things you wouldn't learn elsewhere.
David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog
RE: This is BS
Yeah right. Thank your invisible playmate for the great information, there. :-)
The fact remains that Wind River claims there will be phones running their Linux platform out before Christmas, which would be the first Linux mobile phones to target the US market. If they're not from Palm it will be interesting to know who is making them. Normally I'd guess Motorola, but like most phone vendors Moto prefers to announce devices well in advance of the actual release with a splashy campaign. This mystery phone maker, on the other hand, is playing its cards very close and apparently plans to remain tight-lipped right up until release time.
If it's not Palm then it must be Apple! :-)
David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog
RE: This is BS
dona83 @ 10/10/2005 1:52:18 PM #
I think what is BS is that every single person here is sad and doesn't seem to have a life other than to complain about Cobalt, the direction Palm and PalmSource is going, and the whole like. Enjoy life and find something better to do, PDAs and mobile phones are not important to our existance. They're there to help, and if it's doing its job like my Treo 600 then quit yer whining."
Yep, about the only thing I can think of more pathetic than this is bothering to post a whiney, pointless, comment like this that shows Dona has even less of a life than those here discussing this or she/he wouldn't have bothered to read it all and add this comment.
RE: This is BS
Finally getting around to watching the Analyst Day webcast and Hawkins is stating categorically that "we don't do feature phones," identifying 3rd party software as a defining characteristic of all of Palm's products.
David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
www.pikesoft.com
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog
RE: This is BS
It's called a competitive advantage. Don't compete unless you've got one. :D
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"People who like M$ products tend to be insecure crowd-following newbies lacking in experience and imagination."
RE: This is BS
If you don't believe me, watch & listen to Jeff Hawkins' presentation during the Analyst Day.
http://ir.palm.com/phoenix.zhtml?c=105423&p=irol-news
He stated that Palm is a mobile computing company, which means no consumer electronics devices and no feature phones.
If it is true that Palm will be utilizing Wind River Linux on a future device, it would be more in line with a handheld where the web is an application and Palm offers more browser-based network services and applications using Wind River's runtime environment.
work harder. play smarter. visit www.tapland.com.
RE: This is BS
I think what is BS is that every single person here is sad and doesn't seem to have a life...
then why are you here if everyone here doesn't have a life, taking time out from your own hectic life out of the goodness of your heart?
.
.
PDAs and mobile phones are not important to our existance
and you're not important to our existence so quit your whining about what others do on PIC.
"What counts is not necessarily the size of the dog in the fight but the size of the fight in the dog" - Dwight D. Eisenhower
RE: This is BS
JLM.
Another Palm wench posts! I love you, JLM.
Your pal,
TVoR
------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------
The Palm eCONomy = Communism™
The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038
NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823
RE: This is BS
Like David Beers said, there are a lot of bright people here and there is a lot of useful info you can get from this site once you filter out the BS.
Thank You for the attitude refresher.
I'm sorry. I aplologize. You are right about me being wrong about Dona83 being right to whine about us whiners. I am going to stop being such a whiner and stop reading so much of this junk and get me a life if I still can remember how.
Thanks again.
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