Comments on: Palm Presentation At Lehman Brothers Conference
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Not 30 million
Surur
RE: Continuously riding on the coattails of past glories
Pat Horne; www.churchoflivingfaith.com
RE: Continuously riding on the coattails of past glories
Life Henry Ford? Didn't invent it, but made it cheap enough to popularize it? OTOH, we dont really know where standalone PDA's are going, and Palm is not really the major driver in the smartphone area. Has the world really been changed? In 10 years, will PDA's be a footnote, or will we all be carrying little PADDS like in StarTrek?
Only history will be able to judge what is really the world changing events e.g. maybe the purchase of PSRC by Access would be the event which catapult PDA's into the hands of the general population?
Surur
RE: Continuously riding on the coattails of past glories
Palm is not really the major driver in the smartphone area
Sure. Other than the fact that they invented the category and created the device of which all the others tout they are "killers."
Nokia may sell more Series 60 phones than Palm sells Treos, but go look at the new Nokia E61 and tell me which one of those two companies is "driving" the smartphone area.
David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog
RE: Continuously riding on the coattails of past glories
That's right. And every time we upgrade they have to teach us "a new way of writing" all over again. I'd say 30 million is about right! ;-)
David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog
RE: Continuously riding on the coattails of past glories
Its however not clear that phones with keyboards will be the future of smart phones, and its certainly not the Nokia vision. Palm has a nice physical design, but Palms UI and architecture has not been as influential, and amongst the many smartphones in the world its just one of many designs, the others being sliders and flip phones, and keyboard/keypadless devices. Some such keyboardless devices, which maximize screen area while minimizing size, like the Imate Jam/HTC Magician is having quiet success all over the world and is much loved by people. The world is a big place.
Surur
RE: Continuously riding on the coattails of past glories
David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog
RE: Continuously riding on the coattails of past glories
Sorry to break your bubble Beersy but Nokia brought out its GSM 9000i Communicator (perhaps in Europe only?), which had a web browser and email client, in 1997 or 1998, long before the first Treo smartphone was a twinkle in Handspring's eye.
All being said the 9000i was nearly the size of a brick but even that model handled PIM.
"What counts is not necessarily the size of the dog in the fight but the size of the fight in the dog" - Dwight D. Eisenhower
What can we make of Nokia's smartphones efforts?
What hope do they have now of succeeding with the smartphone after so many years of trying?
Has Nokia been to the smartphone what Apple was to the PDA - a company that's spent lots of money on developing a product only to see others profit from the concept?
Just my two cents.
"What counts is not necessarily the size of the dog in the fight but the size of the fight in the dog" - Dwight D. Eisenhower
RE: Continuously riding on the coattails of past glories
Sorry to break your bubble Beersy but Nokia brought out its GSM 9000i Communicator (perhaps in Europe only?), which had a web browser and email client, in 1997 or 1998, long before the first Treo smartphone was a twinkle in Handspring's eye.
The Nokia "Brick" was more like a mini-laptop with wireless than a smartphone. For something to be a smartphone it really needs to be usable as a mobile phone, don't you think? That thing wasn't just brick-like in size, it also weighed a ton and had a big folding antenna hanging off it like one of those WAN cards you stick in your laptop.
I do give Nokia a lot of credit for their more recent communicators, which are unique designs that are very popular in Europe and sell comparably to the Treo. We can quibble about definitions of a smartphone and which one was the first, but to get back to the point that started the discussion off, it's just plain stupid to say that Palm hasn't been and doesn't continue to be a major driver of smartphone design.
David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog
RE: What can we make of Nokia's smartphone efforts
On the one hand they've been determined - they've been trying since 98 with the smartphone concept - on the other hand the prominence of their efforts have been eclipsed by younger and smaller companies such as Handspring (now Palm), RIM etc.
First you give Nokia too much credit, now you give them too little. The direct descendent of those first efforts in 1998 to develop a "converged" phone and PDA are the 9300/9500 model Communicators of today, which sell at least as well globally as the Treo does--just not in the US. And Series 60 phones, while lacking a touchscreen, are excellent phone-centric smartphones of which Nokia sells more in a month than Palm sells Treos in a whole year. I'd hardly say that Nokia has been "eclipsed" by Palm and RIM--at least not globally.
Not yet, anyway. Bwaaahaahaahaha!
OK, I've now had my little Palm Linux fantasy episode for the day and can return to rational discussion. ;-)
David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog
RE: Continuously riding on the coattails of past glories
A. Where is the TVoR? I cannot believe he's misssing an impossibly juicy (and quite compelling) thread/news item like this one.
B. Remember, folks, the "Treo Experience" is the new buzzword headng into '06! How are we to define this experience? Is it hardware (unstylish w/ a candybar form factor & a protruding antenna wart) or the software (essentially the same as any "modern" POS handheld that you can buy for MUCH less $ than the Treo 650 commands) or is it the combination of the two? If so, how can the WinMob Treo adhere to the standard of the "Experience" if it's running an entirely different OS (one that's inherently harder to hack/tweak/butcher!)
C. Also, if my aging memory serves me correctly (!) the Nokia 9000 was available in VERY limited numbers on Cingular..or rather, BellSouth Mobility at the time (1998-99). I seem to remember it being an enormous flop and subsequent versions were never released stateside.
A pic of the beast:
http://www.cnn.com/TECH/science/9802/27/t_t/wireless.trends/
D Palm's refusal to beef up the Treo's specs and/or have at least two unique models of varying specs/formfactors is going to be the Treo's downfall in '06 if they don't get something out by the spring. And no, a 700w and leftover 650's do not count.
Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5
RE: Continuously riding on the coattails of past glories
I remember this Nokia device, and remember wanting it. I especially thought receiving faxes were impressive. Didn't this show up in a James Bond episode at one point? I would certainly consider it a smartphone.
Anyways, the always exposed keyboard is not exactly a Palm innovation, in that the very successful RIM has always had it. I would contend that everyone is copying RIM, trying to get into the e-mail and corporate market, where they specialize and have been very successful.
Surur
Colligan and Series 60
IMO, the S60 platform is every bit as "smart" as the Palm OS (in some ways smarter - see: multitasking), but Nokia has shown themselves to lack the vision to provide the features these phones desparately need to provide a truly compelling smartphone. Specifically, they've lacked decent text input, stereo output, and have been hobbled by the MMC expansion card format. Finally within the last year they've started to offer stereo output on their S60 phones and the upcoming two QWERTY-equipped S60 phones will address the text input issues. If that can kill off that dreaded MMC format and move on to SD, they'll be in good shape. Oh, and some of these newer S60 phones are using higher-res screens as well.
The other issue for them is that they haven't penetrated the US CDMA market with S60 phones (actually, Nokia doesn't have much of a presence at all in CDMA). So, they're giving away the Sprint and Verizon business to WinMob and Palm there (though I don't know how much of this is due to a lack of trying on their part, or if Sprint/Verizon just aren't interested).
http://Tapland.com
- Tapwave Zodiac News, Reviews, & Discussion -
More observations from the presentation...
1) He drew a direct relationship from WM5 to their ability to offer the Ev-DO stack. Other comments suggested to me that their roadmap may be for low-end Treos to be Palm OS based and high-end Treos to run WM. I hope I'm wrong here.
2) He pretty much admitted that they've cut back on R&D for unconnected PDAs and are condensing the lineup (hence the drop of the Tungsten and Zire names with the latest Z22 and TX offerings). He also indicated the sweetspot of prices for unconnected PDAs to be between those $99-$300 pricepoints. Bottom line: I wouldn't expect a new PDA with more features than the TX anytime soon (IOW, until they can offer it for $300 or less).
3) The Lifedrive is its own new category and they've had "some success" there but I don't get the sense that they really even know what they're aiming for in that segment and I didn't get the impression that they were confident that there even *was* a viable market there. I think they're partly right (I don't see a big market for PVPs), but I believe that they're also lacking vision and innovation here and they *won't* have much success if they can't offer more innovative features (e.g., gaming focused controls) and/or a significantly larger HD. My prediction is that they'll release a 5GB or 6GB replacement model Lifedrive in the not-too-distant future, it'll be a dud, and they'll kill off the line altogether.
http://Tapland.com
- Tapwave Zodiac News, Reviews, & Discussion -
RE: Continuously riding on the coattails of past glories
Didn't he use the word "experiment" at one point to describe the LifeDrive? He definitely indicated that they were encouraged to do more experimentation along the same lines, but he didn't exactly have rousing things to say about the LifeDrive, did he? I definitely sensed that they're feeling their way with that one and that the next incarnation of the "mobile manager" concept could very well be substantially different from the last one.
David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog
RE: Continuously riding on the coattails of past glories
I believe there was a number of indications that EVDO IS coming to a Palm Treo. He also mentioned GPS, but it wasn't as clear if he was talking about an integrated device. Palm is a small company, and they probably cant afford to support more than 3 or 4 lines at the same time.
He also said something interesting about some "geographies" preferring WM, which was why they developed it. Does this mean the Europe R&D site will concentrate on selling the WM Treo, or will they still try and push the PalmOS Treo in EMEA?
Surur
RE: Continuously riding on the coattails of past glories
Then Palm can milk those $, in addition to the 1mp camera in the 700p, for a few more months by trickling those technologies down to $200-$250 midrange Palms to replace the Zire 31, T|E2, and Zire 72. I'd expect by this time next a VERY lean'n mean Palm lineup consisting of two POS Treos and the 700w, three POS PDAs (at the $100, $200, $300 price points) and POPSSIBLY a LD2 (but don't count on it).
I'd rule out anything with integrated GPS--perhaps another bundle consisting of the TX + Palm's rebadged GPS receiver puck thingie?
Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5
RE: Continuously riding on the coattails of past glories
Surur
RE: Continuously riding on the coattails of past glories
They'll probably take the basic Zire 72 concept, stick NVFS (and possibly 2x the RAM) on it, add the Athena connnector from the T|E2 and keep the T|E2's screen. That gives them a $200 Palm-branded unit to rpelace the E2 AND an affordable media-centric machine to replace the Zire 31 and Zire 72.
Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5
RE: Continuously riding on the coattails of past glories
Then again there's the Treo Flipper!?!
http://www.churchoflivingfaith.com/images/treoflipper.jpg
Pat Horne; www.churchoflivingfaith.com
RE: Continuously riding on the coattails of past glories
While we're on that topic...
A $200 Treo would be really barebones. No camrea, no backlit keyboard, and a small 160*160 screen. Essentially, as you said , a Z22 with phone functionlaity and POSSIBLY an SD slot.
Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5
treo experience ? lord help us
Anyway, there are numerous design issues with the device - hopefully they're fixed in the 650, but they just appear 'what the hell were they thinking' on this device.
For example, when the battery goes completely flat (as it does sometimes, because incoming SMS message alerts seem to keep the screen on until acknowledged, despite an auto-off time of 2 minutes), I charge it up. Only it *constantly* pops up the 'battery very low, please shutdown' message. This goes on for over an hour, until the battery is charged by more than 10% or whatever the low-watermark is. It would take much less if the screen wasn't constantly on warning me about a low battery.
Another low battery issue ... if you get a low battery warning during a call, a warning pops up. unfortunately, it automatically pops down after a few seconds, and the phone 'hangup' button is directly under where the 'ok' of the popup is ... so you can guess what happens.
If you decide to leave the phone application during a call, say to lookup another number, it seems imposible to come back to the phone app (pressing phone just flicks to the phone app, and then out again). So you have to press the phone app, and then quickly press the 'hangup' button whilst it is present for a brief part of a second.
Why doesn't the 'return' key work as 'OK' on the security screen ?
And the SDIO card - spring loaded is great - but it keeps getting 'sprung' when it's in my pocket, causing the battery to run down.
I don't want to use the key lock, AND the security screen - but that HUGE 'call emergency number' button on the security screen is always getting hit when the device is in my pocket and gets powered on for some reason (eg the SDIO card issue) - I'm sure it'll get me into trouble one day.
There are a few others which I forget, eg, you can't just enter numbers into the phone app whilst on a call, or cut and paste them out after the call - you have to switch to memo pad or something to jot down numbers - and then you can't get back to the phone app, as above.
Basically it seems Palm incorporated some impromptu games of skill and chance into the interface that I could have done without - so excuse me when I cough at the mention of the 'treo experience'.
I'm not saying anyone else is better - just 'what the hell were they thinking'
RE: treo experience ? lord help us
Handspring Visor -> m505 -> Zire71 -> Zire72 -> Treo650
RE: The iPod Influence
There's no denying that style is way above substance these days. It can only be regretted.
Surur
RE: The iPod Influence
http://Tapland.com
- Tapwave Zodiac News, Reviews, & Discussion -
RE: The iPod Influence
Smaller screen, no SD slot, no audio capabilities.
What's to gain other than 2x the ram, a slightly newer OS, and NVFS? And no, "style" doesn't count.
The Z22 isn't going to be as big of a seller as many seem to think it will. I seldom see them (still) at retail and most people are going to wonder why their $30 w/ contract cell phone has a TFT screen that looks 100x better than the murky CSTN Z22 screen (sticking with the cell phone of course).
Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5
RE: The iPod Influence
It's true that the low-end is becoming crowded with cell phones, music players, and other toys such that the low end PDAs don't have as much of a place as they used to.
Your comment about cell phone LCDs made me think of something, though. Imagine an "ultra-small" Palm device, with maybe a 1.5" screen, extremely small, extremely light. Either no expansion or something like a MicroSD slot. Basic amount of memory, minimal processor, the rest is battery. Make the whole thing maybe 3" long by 2" wide. Probably a bit impractical, but it caused me to wonder. Call it the Palm Nano.
Announcing the next KILLER PDA design: Palm PICO™
Palm PICO™ (PalmOS Internet-Capable Organizer):
OLED screen, black magnesium or brushed aluminum case, USB mini, Bluetooth or PCMCIA slot syncing. Motorola RAZR styling. THIS is what could become another Palm V-style must-have executive toy. A Rolodex/calendar/email device/web browser almost as small as a credit card. Killer.
------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------
The Palm eCONomy = Communism™
The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038
NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823
RE: The iPod Influence
Now you're talking. If Fossil could fit Palm OS in a chunky watch case a few years back, somebody today can do it in a slim wafer of stainless steel and glass.
Maybe with a little different kind of pen input so you wouldn't need Graffiti or a thumbboard: http://www.palminfocenter.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=158686&highlight=#158686
David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog
RE: The iPod Influence
OLED screen would be phenomenal on such a device--but what about battery life? Have two versions--one with say, a silver housing, 32mb NVFS and no BT (for the style over substance crowd) and then the "deluxe" black version with 64mb & BT.
But the build quality on such a device would have to be SUPERB. Perhaps a mini-SD slot could even be shoehorned into it...
Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5
Long live the king (REX)!
The funny thing is it actually wouldn't take much effort (or money) to produce something like this. A RAZRed REX with a monochrome screen could go for well under $100 and become standard issue for businesspeople. The small size is the key. Deluxe versions with color/OLED screens could become status symbols much like the Palm V was 6 years ago. Palm is asleep at the wheel and has no excuse for not experimenting with something as obvious as this. Keep the LifeDrive crap... give us the RAZRed REX!
Maybe with a little different kind of pen input so you wouldn't need Graffiti or a thumbboard:
I think user-selectable entry via either a virtual keyboard or something like MessageEase would be the way to go.
I'd settle for something like a Palm V/Vidor Edge hybrid with TX-level specs.
OLED screen would be phenomenal on such a device--but what about battery life? Have two versions--one with say, a silver housing, 32mb NVFS and no BT (for the style over substance crowd) and then the "deluxe" black version with 64mb & BT.
But the build quality on such a device would have to be SUPERB. Perhaps a mini-SD slot could even be shoehorned into it...
Palm has given up on standalone PDAs, hkklife. Buy that European TH55 ASAP! ;-O
Palm's (Giant) Killer 2006 lineup:
1) $69 - RAZRed REX
2) $99 - Z33 (Z22 with better screen, 64 MB NVRAM/CrapRAM™)
3) $149 - color RARZed REX
4) $199 - TE-3 (1 GB NVRAM/CrapRAM™)
5) $399 - TV (Palm V styled PDA with OLED screen, 4GB NVRAM/CrapRAM™)
6) $599 - TW (Landscape-oriented TV with UX-50 keyboard, integrated Broadband cellphone radio, Bluetooth phone software, speakerphone, Wi-Fi, dual SD slots)
Treos
7) $199 - Treo 200 (basic, phone-centric PalmOS smartphone)
8) $499 - Treo 700w and 700p (Broadband + Wi-Fi capable Treos running Windows Mobile and PalmOS, respectively)
------------------------
Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.
------------------------
The Palm eCONomy = Communism™
The Great Palm Swindle: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=7864#108038
NetFrontLinux - the next major cellphone OS?: http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=8060#111823
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Continuously riding on the coattails of past glories
Yeah, and then you pulled the rug out from under them, Ed. RIP Graffiti 1. Funny how they fail to constantly overlook these "small" details. By the way, where's that Graffiti 3 you alluded to a few months ago?
Other tidbits from the talk:
-He drank a Red Bull prior to his speech
-He gives props to the dedicated software engineers at Palm (maybe a harbinger of trying to turn themselves into a software/OS company with their own home-brewed Linux solution?)
-The "Treo Experience" is touted numerous times
-LifeDrive is mentioned as a new category of mobile manager--so it looks like they haven't thrown in the towel (yet) on 'em.
-Microsoft is mentioned several times (Exchange etc) and he lauds the strengths they bring to the table. )Translation: cash, dollars, and a large warchest).
-Treo is increasingly becoming a "maintsream" product & hitting that kind of an audience. Sounds like a sure thing for a cheaper lower-end Treo in '06.
-He says GPS and location-based services are experiencing huge growth, especially in Europe. Does this mean Palm's GPS navigator bundle is selling that well or are they going to release a iQue type device down the road?
I wish someone could corner him and ask the HARD-HITTING questions that need to be asked regarding why loyal longtime users are continuously hung out to dry by Palm.
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