Comments on: Treo 'Hollywood' Images Leaked?

Rumor Images of an unidentified Palm Treo smartphone have been posted on the TreoCentral Forums. This new Treo is being labeled as the likely code-named Hollywood Treo that was previously leaked by an investment report. The device pictured runs Windows Mobile and has similar hardware specs as the 700w.
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*cries*

legodude522 @ 4/19/2006 11:34:58 AM # Q
Dammit, I was expecting Palm OS. Good thing I didn't hold out for the Hollywood. Atenaeless is a feature I wanted. Now I don't want it, lol.

Palm m125 > Palm Zire 71 > Tapwave Zodiac 1 > Palm Zire 72 > Sharp Zaurus SL-C1000
So long Palm OS.
RE: *cries*
Jamerican @ 4/19/2006 11:52:40 AM # Q
Looks like a Blackberry. LOL. Hope the keyboard is like the Treo 90 or better than the Treo 90. But still, I wouldn't get it because I hate square screens.

JAmerican

RE: *cries*
legodude522 @ 4/19/2006 12:04:10 PM # Q
Looks real. The source even works for Microsoft, I did a check.

Palm m125 > Palm Zire 71 > Tapwave Zodiac 1 > Palm Zire 72 > Sharp Zaurus SL-C1000
So long Palm OS.
Reply to this comment

Disappointed...

Surur @ 4/19/2006 11:55:21 AM # Q
I had expected more from this device. At least it has 64 MB ram, but there is nothing else compelling.

Why no video conferencing camera. Why only 1.3 megapixels. Why the boring and old-school styling? Why no GPS? Why no standout features at all?

The fact is this a business phone, similar to a blackberry. There is nothing Hollywood about it at all. It better be cheap then.

Surur

They said I only argued for the sake of arguing, but after an hour I convinced them they were wrong...

RE: Disappointed...
hkklife @ 4/19/2006 2:54:52 PM # Q
Surur;

I am disappointed too but obviously not AS much as you are. I was just hoping for an even sleeker formfactor that somehow deviated a bit more from the 700w other than hacking off the antenna and making the unit a tad thinner.

Palm's targeting this thing at the same executive types who bought Palm V's in droves in '99/'00 and Blackberries & RAZRs in the past few years----solid but unspectacular specs and a premium $ put on style & sleekness.

Remember, compared to a standard Treo or a BB this thing is still fairly sleek. Also, compared to a BB, the 700w/Hollywood specs still are very strong.

This is the same ol' componentry that Palm uses in most of their other devices but in a snazzy new casing.

Palm had better get the 700P out ASAP before any more Hollywood pics circulate. Otherwise the 700P is bound to look even clunkier and more of a retread than it already does! Maybe having four different colors of the 700P will help distinguish it?



Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5-->TX

RE: Disappointed...
hkklife @ 4/19/2006 3:11:49 PM # Q
P.S.

It also has more RAM so, if nothing else, the extra RAM combines with the sleeker formfactor to make it "almost" compelling--remember us CDMA Yankee users can supposedly tolerate "big & bulky" better than mobile users elsewhere in the world.

I do not follow the WinMob/PPC scene as closely as POS---are incremental upgrades released from one device to the other? Example, LifeDrive in May '05 ran OS 5.4.8 and TX in Oct '05 ran OS 5.4.9. Does it stand to reason that the Hollywood might also benefit from minor bugfixes/updates to WinMob vs. its earlier 700w predecessor?

In theory, build quality could/should be improved as well. I'm gonna wince (Win CE?-LOL!) when the unlocked GSM Hollywood pricing is announced. Anyone want to hazard a guess? $600-$700 unlocked at launch?


Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5-->TX

Brighthand/Adama reports Hollywood is a hoax!
hkklife @ 4/19/2006 3:18:07 PM # Q
http://www.brighthand.com/default.asp?newsID=12170


No Lowrider this year either?

So....assuming Adama is correct ( I have zero reason to doubt him) that makes the four new Treos for '06 the following, in order of likely release schedule:

700W CDMA (Verizon only)

700P CDMA (Sprint only)

700P GSM (Cingular & everyone else globally)

700W GSM (T-Mobile & Cingular but primarily for global markets)

Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5-->TX

RE: Disappointed...
Ryan @ 4/19/2006 3:30:03 PM # Q
If Adama's source is correct that could indicate that these images here could be the Treo 700w for GSM networks.
RE: Disappointed...
Surur @ 4/19/2006 3:31:23 PM # Q

Thats just Palm damage control. I think things are going exactly as Sagio predicted.

Surur

They said I only argued for the sake of arguing, but after an hour I convinced them they were wrong...

RE: Disappointed
ChiA @ 4/19/2006 3:41:18 PM # Q
Palm's targeting this thing at the same executive types who bought Palm V's in droves in '99/'00 and Blackberries & RAZRs in the past few years

I'm afraid not, they'll be going for the credit card sized Samsung sgh-p300:

http://tinyurl.com/fye9r
http://www.expansys.com/product.asp?code=131919
http://www.mobileburn.com/review.jsp?Id=2069&source=RELATED

Its camera is the same resolution as that of the Treo700w despite being slimmer than the Treo's battery! Oh and it still has a good battery life.

It also has bluetooth 1.2, a music player and an email client that supports POP/IMAP access so this little wonder does what most people ask of their smartphones/Blackberries anyway.

I think whatever Palm comes up with has got to be pretty ahead of the pack if it's going to survive, nevermind gain marketshare. The past couple of years have already seen casualties in the cut-throat mobile phone market: Siemens, Panasonic, even Ericsson have fallen to the wayside bruised and bloodied.
(Anybody scratching their heads about why Ericsson is mentioned should look into how SonyEricsson was created).

I'm sad because despite loving the Palm OS, there's not been any sign that Palm is capable of the task at hand.

"It is commonly said, and more particularly by Lord Shaftesbury, that ridicule is the best test of truth".
Lord Chesterfield

RE: Disappointed...
AdamaDBrown @ 4/19/2006 3:45:30 PM # Q
hkklife wrote:
I do not follow the WinMob/PPC scene as closely as POS---are incremental upgrades released from one device to the other? Example, LifeDrive in May '05 ran OS 5.4.8 and TX in Oct '05 ran OS 5.4.9. Does it stand to reason that the Hollywood might also benefit from minor bugfixes/updates to WinMob vs. its earlier 700w predecessor?

Probably. At the very least, it could be expected to launch with AKU2, which is a kind of service pack for Windows Mobile, which the 700w won't get until late this month. This includes push email, some other tweaks, and possibly Bluetooth headphone support.

Ryan wrote:
If Adama's source is correct that could indicate that these images here could be the Treo 700w for GSM networks.

Assuming the pics are legit, that would be my guess. The specs are too close to the 700w to make sense having a GSM version of that, plus this.

RE: Disappointed...
potter @ 4/19/2006 4:09:43 PM # Q
Surur wrote @ 4/19/2006 11:55:21 AM
Why no GPS?

Because of 911 support, the FCC now requires all cell phones registered in the U.S. to have some type of GPS capability.

However, this does not mean that it is true GPS (talks to the GPS satellites), nor does it mean the GPS information is user accessible.

I rudely discovered this when my cell phone died and I tried to activate an old v60c until I could get a replacement. My carrier could not activate it since it did not support aGPS.

Why no standout features at all?

One must remember this is suppose to be a low-end phone. One does not see "new" or "standout" features in low-end devices. The only "standout" feature one should expect is price. For that we will have to wait and see.

RE: Disappointed...
potter @ 4/19/2006 4:26:50 PM # Q
potter wrote @ 4/19/2006 4:09:43 PM

Why no standout features at all?

One must remember this is suppose to be a low-end phone. One does not see "new" or "standout" features in low-end devices. The only "standout" feature one should expect is price. For that we will have to wait and see.


Scratch that, I may be confusing the Hollywood and the Lowrider.

RE: Disappointed...
hkklife @ 4/19/2006 4:32:05 PM # Q
Potter;

I found myself in the same boat a while back. Neither a V60c or a V60i (both Verizon and from 2002/2003) could be activated. The V60s/V65s are the only V60 variants that I know of that they will let you activate now. A shame I sold my old V60s off for something like $40 last year...



Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5-->TX

RE: Disappointed...
Surur @ 4/19/2006 4:43:22 PM # Q

My problem is that it just does not look sleek or modern. Take a look at the keyboarded competitors that will be contemporaneous with it.

http://img414.imageshack.us/img414/8947/roguesgallery27fw.jpg

For the limited features, its just not pretty enough. If they want the suits to buy it they better make it fit in a suite without making a bulge.

Surur

They said I only argued for the sake of arguing, but after an hour I convinced them they were wrong...

RE: Disappointed...
PenguinPowered @ 4/19/2006 4:50:26 PM # Q
FWIW, aGPS does listen to the GPS satellites, it just doesn't have to be as good as a general purpose GPS receiver because it can rely on the network for part of its positioning information.


May You Live in Interesting Times

RE: Disappointed...
AdamaDBrown @ 4/19/2006 4:57:29 PM # Q
Surur wrote:
My problem is that it just does not look sleek or modern. Take a look at the keyboarded competitors that will be contemporaneous with it.

I'm not seeing it. Half those devices aren't even close to sleek. I've seen the P51's predecessor in person. And "modern" is rather in the eye of the beholder. Can you see a single design ethic common to all those devices other than "rectangle with buttons and a screen"?

RE: Disappointed...
Surur @ 4/19/2006 6:02:02 PM # Q

Of course it is in the eye of the beholder. However the other devices are all a lot more square and angular, they tend to have less rounded surfaces (e.g. the hump at the top of the Treo and around the buttons) The screens tend to be more prominent, and not surrounded by a rounded rim. It all adds up to sleek and modern. The Treo brings to mind a 1950's car, whereas e.g the Moto Q looks more like a Lamborghini.

There was a progression from rounded to angular between the Treo 650 and 700w, and it shows. The 700w looks more modern. The other devices are just further along that road. Look for example at the Loox and Nokia D-pad.

If one is to carry a big device one does not want others to think its a bag phone from 1980.

Surur

They said I only argued for the sake of arguing, but after an hour I convinced them they were wrong...

RE: Disappointed...
Scott R @ 4/19/2006 7:12:48 PM # Q
"If Adama's source is correct that could indicate that these images here could be the Treo 700w for GSM networks."

That's what I was surmising in the TC forums. If these images are real, it seems like little more than an antenna-less 700w (possibly *slightly* lighter and thinner) which is likely possible *because* it's GSM.

I sure hope that when Palm said that they'd have 3-4 new Treos they weren't just talking about these slight variations for each network. One article quoted a Palm rep (Colligan?) as saying that we'd see new form factors. I'd like to think that he was talking about something more interesting (e.g., Nokia Communicator-styled clamshell smartphone) and not simply an antenna-less 700w. But then again, this is Palm we're talking about.

http://Tapland.com
- Tapwave Zodiac News, Reviews, & Discussion -

RE: Disappointed...
rsc1000 @ 4/19/2006 8:55:45 PM # Q
ChiA wrote :
I'm afraid not, they'll be going for the credit card sized Samsung sgh-p300

From Samsungs website:

At only 9 mm, it is as thin as a credit card, making it the ideal companion.

Firstly, 9 mm is not anywhere near as thin as a credit card (that would be about 2 mm). Why the heck a company like Samsung feels it needs to lie and treat people like idiots by stating that something is as "as thin as a credit card" when it is in fact over 4 times thicker than that is beyond me - I find it that kind of market BS annoying.
Secondly, this Samsung is not really in the same market with this as the Treo - it's not a smartphone with a standard OS, its a java feature phone, meaning basically just games and simple apps can be added. If you want to edit or view office docs or add other complex apps, then your out of luck.
Third: Where is the Qwerty keyboard? How many of the 'executive types who bought Palm V's in droves' that you say will want this thing, will seriously even consider this to be in the running? Those people want data entry - predictive numeric text entry is not going to cut it with that demographic.

Having said all that: cool phone!



RE: Disappointed...
AdamaDBrown @ 4/20/2006 1:18:13 AM # Q
If these images are real, it seems like little more than an antenna-less 700w (possibly *slightly* lighter and thinner) which is likely possible *because* it's GSM.

To amplify on what Scott means, Verizon requires phones it carries to have a stub antenna. I don't know why--maybe they're afraid their customers will forget which way to hold the phone. GSM carriers, on the other hand, have no such requirement.

I'd like to think that he was talking about something more interesting (e.g., Nokia Communicator-styled clamshell smartphone) and not simply an antenna-less 700w.

If they come out with a clamshell design like the Motorola v360, count me in for one.

RE: Disappointed...
Scott R @ 4/20/2006 8:19:03 AM # Q
Well, there are some CDMA phones without external antennas, but they're in the minority. My understanding is that CDMA uses more power than GSM as well. Perhaps that's somehow related (i.e., draw less power and rely more on the antenna). Or, perhaps the antenna has something to do with getting the radiation farther away from your head. One day maybe we'll discover that the CDMA industry had secret documents showing that these things really do cause brain cancer.

As for my clamshell comments, I was talking about something more along the lines of a phone that looks like a regular candybar phone, complete with numeric input, but opens up to reveal a wide QWERTY thumbboard and widescreen display. A phone that has to be opened up any time you want to check email or your schedule (like that Moto V360) isn't appealing to me. But I'm all for Palm diversifying in general and providing several different smartphone form factors so that we could all have a device that met our unique wants/needs.

http://Tapland.com
- Tapwave Zodiac News, Reviews, & Discussion -

RE: Disappointed...
ChiA @ 4/20/2006 9:26:44 AM # Q
rsc 1000 said: Firstly, 9 mm is not anywhere near as thin as a credit card (that would be about 2 mm)
I agree with you, it's not the thickness of a credit card but it's definitely the length and width of a credit card. It's smaller and still thinner than a Treo 650 yet carries better features: 1.3 megapixel camera (vs 650's VGA camera), 80MB user memory (vs 650's 32Mb which in practice is 23MB for the user). In fact, with the exception of Palm OS, full keyboard and large screen, this credit card sized phone outclasses the Treo 650.

If you want to edit or view office docs or add other complex apps, then you're out of luck.
You can buy a Palm E2, Tx or even Pocket PC and use DUN via Bluetooth with this tiny Samsung, hell a Tx with this phone may even be less bulky than a Treo and you get Wi-fi too!

Third: Where is the Qwerty keyboard? How many of the 'executive types who bought Palm V's in droves'will seriously even consider this to be in the running?
Maybe the same ones who bought the Palm V without a keyboard! :-)

Okay rsc1000, you do have some valid points but what I'm trying to say is that in a market where even the dumb phones can match and exceed most if not all the features on a Treo 650, Palm has to come up with smartphones with a wider market appeal if it's to get beyond selling to Palm OS devotees and upgraders. So far it's only attempt to do that was launching the Windows Mobile 700w where it faces even stiffer competition from numerous other WinMob licensees; at least with Garnet it's the dominant Palm OS smartphone manufacturer.

RE: Disappointed...
rsc1000 @ 4/20/2006 1:41:04 PM # Q
Okay rsc1000, you do have some valid points but what I'm trying to say is that in a market where even the dumb phones can match and exceed most if not all the features on a Treo 650, Palm has to come up with smartphones with a wider market appeal if it's to get beyond selling to Palm OS devotees and upgraders.

Fair enough - you too have valid points here, i guess it is just a question of personal usage preferencess that ultimateoy would determine wether somebody could replace a 650 with a phone like this. I mean, i caN't play warfare inc (no touchscreen!) or run Doom or DukeNukem on this! :)

>>Maybe the same ones who bought the Palm V without a keyboard! :-)

Yeah - but the V had good'ol graffiti-1! beats numeric padv text input for a lot of people, especially those who are used to Palm OS.

Again - cool phone though. As far as slim, Samsung also has somthing that is closer to as-thin-as a credit card:

http://www.hiptechblog.com/2006/04/11/samsung-x828-cellphone-is-ultraslim/

...only 6.9 mm.

Reply to this comment

Hollywood P?

KultiVator @ 4/19/2006 3:19:40 PM # Q
Hi Guys,

Any reason not to speculate that there might be a "Hollywood P" in development too?

Would seem to be a logical way to follow-up on the success of 700W / 700P situation.

By the way - does the Hollywood W still use that crappy 240x320 screen resolution - or have they beefed it up this time around?

KultiVator

RE: Hollywood P?
Surur @ 4/19/2006 3:25:00 PM # Q

Worse. Its 240x240. I dont expect a POS Hollywood. With the Hollywood being leaked the Trilogy in 4 parts of Treo releases are complete.

Surur

They said I only argued for the sake of arguing, but after an hour I convinced them they were wrong...

RE: Hollywood P?
AdamaDBrown @ 4/19/2006 4:06:53 PM # Q
Any reason not to speculate that there might be a "Hollywood P" in development too?

Good question. Simple answer: no idea. Currently, there's no evidence to suggest that there is, and no evidence to suggest that there isn't.

Treonauts is attributing to Ed Colligan a statement that Palm will make all hardware versions available in both operating systems, however this is not any kind of official statement that I'm aware of. If somebody can tell me otherwise, please do.

RE: Hollywood P?
AdamaDBrown @ 4/19/2006 4:57:39 PM # Q
As an addendum, if this does turn out to be the GSM equivalent to the 700w, it would stand to reason that they'd use the same design/specs for the GSM 700p.

Reply to this comment

Just doesnt seem right

WCSPC Manager @ 4/19/2006 4:27:40 PM # Q
I think Palm Inc's approach to Windows Mobile isnt right. Palms can run off small processors and small screens. I think Windows Mobile needs big screens and heavy duty hardware.

My HP iPAQ hx2415 and Jornada 720 have big screens and big processors, while my trusty Treo 650 has more power conserving hardware for its OS.

I think Palm is making a mistake with the Hollywood and 700w, and should make something like a TXw or LifeDrivew. Big screens, big processors, long life batteries, and CF slots!

This post was made on my HP Jornada 720, with a 640x240 screen, 206mhz, and a PCMCIA Wifi card. (Just got it yesterday and I love it! A teacher at my school even asked for the brand and model name and how to get one!)

RE: Just doesnt seem right
just_little_me @ 4/19/2006 7:05:33 PM # Q
Yeah... bigger phones... that's what we need... (sheesh)

CF is dead! The world is slowly moving away from SD to mini-SD... people want devices that fit in pockets...

And on processors... the 720 hardly carries a big processor... from memory it's an old StrongARM 206MHz job... the Treo 650 runs an Intel PXA @ 312MHz... arguably bigger...

Handhelds in general are dying - Palm would be f'ing nuts to invest money in that category, no matter what some school kid thinks...


JLM.

RE: Just doesnt seem right
AdamaDBrown @ 4/19/2006 8:25:11 PM # Q
CF is dead!

Funny, I recall hearing that same thing four years ago. It was no more true then than it is now. CF slots may not be present on converged devices, but there's still millions of handhelds a year sold that sport them.

The world is slowly moving away from SD to mini-SD... people want devices that fit in pockets...

Odd. All this time with devices based on CF and regular SD, and I always thought that I could put them in my pocket. I must have been hallucenating.

Handhelds in general are dying

That must be why they hit an all time sales high last year, right?

The companies that are losing out in handhelds are the ones like Palm and HP that are buying into the smartphone hype and killing their handhelds by neglect. But even Palm still sells only a few thousand more Treos than handhelds. They care more about the Treos, because that's where they can push up the selling price, but the market demand is still there.

RE: Just doesnt seem right
Simony @ 4/19/2006 9:22:21 PM # Q
> Palm and HP that are buying into the smartphone hype and killing their handhelds by neglect

I don't recall seeing anything which says that Palm is planning to shut down its handheld lines. (Certainly, the old Handspring was doing so.) My guess is that if sales of non-phone handhelds continue at current levels, Palm will continue with this niche (although perhaps/probably with fewer models - who knows?). Maybe this is just wishful thinking on my part. If you have insight into what Palm is thinking on this, please let us know.

RE: Just doesnt seem right
AdamaDBrown @ 4/20/2006 1:16:45 AM # Q
(although perhaps/probably with fewer models - who knows?)

That was mostly what I mean. HP's not bumping off their existing lines either, but by decreasing the R&D, both companies are essentially promising incrementally upgraded clones of previous devices. Not at much innovation translates to fewer sales, as compared to some of the edge-pushing models like the Palm V, iPaq 4150, Tungsten T series...

I think that they'll continue building them as well--after all, you don't lightly pull the plug on half your products. I just wish they were being a little more aggressive. Those big profits coming in off the Treos could be used to fund some riskier, more innovative designs: a digital scratchpad, like a whiteboard with beaming and internet capabilities. Or imagine a PDA built into a wallet. Or an in-dash computer for cars that handles GPS, Bluetooth handsfree/dialing, weather, and live info on traffic delays, all for under $300. New, compelling stuff to draw in customers. Even if only a fraction of the designs ever made it to market, spending that money on R&D could only help. The market for portable computing is huge, and only a small fraction of it is being tapped at the moment.

RE: Just doesnt seem right
SeldomVisitor @ 4/20/2006 6:30:00 AM # Q
> I don't recall seeing anything which says that Palm is planning
> to shut down its handheld lines...If you have insight into what
> Palm is thinking on this, please let us know.

PALM has repeatedly stressed the move from handhelds to smartphones from one conference call to the next. The last CC had the words:

== "...Revenue mix for the quarter was 74% smartphones and 26%
== handhelds. This compares with 46% smartphones and 54%
== handhelds for the year ago period and 61% smartphones and 39%
== handhelds in the second quarter of fiscal year 2006...we devote
== relatively few resources to the handheld portion of our business..."

And, much more importantly, IMHO, was not the mention of their smartphone business and TREO 650 and TREO 700 words, but their TOTAL lack of any mention whatsoever about ANY handheld.

RE: Just doesnt seem right
Simony @ 4/20/2006 7:01:28 AM # Q
> PALM has repeatedly stressed the move from handhelds to smartphones from one conference call to the next.

I guess I had always read those comments in a slightly different way. That is, I had thought what Palm was saying was that they saw customer demand rising for converged phone/handhelds, hence they needed to position themselves to be able to meet the demand. But when you look at those quotes again, maybe I misunderstood (again); maybe they really are preparing to just abandon handhelds altogether. I hope not, but I hear what you say.

RE: Just doesnt seem right
Surur @ 4/20/2006 8:26:46 AM # Q
Were really becoming a completely smartphone company, thats what were really focussed on, is executing against those opportunities.

Ed Colligan, 3 March 2006
http://seekingalpha.com/article/8119

Surur

They said I only argued for the sake of arguing, but after an hour I convinced them they were wrong...

RE: Just doesnt seem right
hkklife @ 4/20/2006 9:29:43 AM # Q
What do I THINK Palm will do? Drop PDAs entirely in the coming year and release no more new PDAs other than maybe a LD2 or a T|E3.


What do I think Palm SHOULD do? Focus on the $100, $200 and $300 pricepoints exclusively for PDAs. Drop the LD line like a hot potato.

Continued tweaking of the $100 Z22 price point can bring mp3 playback ala Zire 31 and make a STRONG case for Palm in the impulse buy retail market. The $200 T|E variants will always sell to business users and people wanting a "better" basic PDA. Then focus on the $300 HVGA TX type model as being for both business users who need a large screen and media-savvy users. With the plummeting price of SD cards (4gb for $100 is stunning even if it's a non-spec SD card) Palm should try to tout its models' media capabilities more in the future.

FrankenGarnet is effectively dead BUT Palm can still keep it around as a servicable PDA OS for the next two years, especially with the large installed base of software and strong brand/name recognition. With HP just milking their line with nothing other than a few OS & memory updates and Dell essentially announcing that they are not releasing any new Axims, Palm is within a few inches of seizing the remnants of the PDA market. And of course, as professionals & gadget freaks switch over to cellphones Palm can continue to push PDAs to schoolkids & in emerging markets.

Canning the PDA line would be falling prey to the "chicken little" mentality of the rest of the industry and would prove a very foolhardy move indeed for Palm. Of course we all know Palm is no stranger to foolish missteps but I really hope their renewed enthusiasm is for real. Five months into '06 and one out of four new Treos on store shelves isn't an encouraging sign by any means.

Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5-->TX

Reply to this comment

AKU 2 for Treo 700w is here !!!

Surur @ 4/19/2006 7:18:29 PM # Q

and available for download.

http://www.palm.com/us/support/downloads/treo700wupdater/verizon.html


Seems to be working OK also.
http://discussion.treocentral.com/showthread.php?t=112267

Surur

They said I only argued for the sake of arguing, but after an hour I convinced them they were wrong...

RE: AKU 2 for Treo 700w is here !!!
hkklife @ 4/20/2006 10:02:09 AM # Q
Does this update fix the network time issue present only on the 700W (where appointment times do not change when the network time signal automatically updates the phone when traveling or for DST)?

This almost-show-stopping bug is not present on the Treo 600 or 650--just the Verizon 700W.



Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5-->TX

Reply to this comment

Another Windows 'Palm'; how quaint.

VampireLestat @ 4/20/2006 2:42:13 AM # Q
Looking forward to the next LifeDrive.
Looking forward to the next Palm OS device.

Reply to this comment

Brighthand is wrong

cervezas @ 4/20/2006 12:20:51 PM # Q
Forget code names. The names "Hollywood" and "Lowrider" came from an 8-month-old Morgan Stanley report, so it's silly to think they can't change or that they describe things that are fixed in stone.

Whatever code names are being used, I know for a fact (like as of yesterday) that Palm is sticking with their plan to release four distinct Treo models this year. I also know that they do not consider taking the Treo 700w and just selling it through Sprint as "distinct" so that's not what we're talking about here. There is no mistake that there is going to be a 700p on Sprint with some nice OS upgrades. And there will be two more Treos before the year is out: one more Palm OS and one more Windows Mobile.

Also, it sounds like Palm's own Linux OS is looking more and more likely to be the "Palm OS" of the future, as opposed to ALP. (That's an interpretation on my part, but take it as you wish.)

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: Brighthand is wrong
SeldomVisitor @ 4/20/2006 1:53:24 PM # Q
> ...I know for a fact (like as of yesterday) that Palm is sticking
> with their plan to release four distinct Treo models this year. I
> also know that they do not consider taking the Treo 700w and just
> selling it through Sprint as "distinct" so that's not what we're
> talking about here...

== "...In our conference call last quarter, I shared with you that
== Palm would introduce four new smartphones in calendar year 2006.
== When I say new smartphones, I am referring to a combination of
== operating system, new hardware design, new radio technology or
== other significant advancement..."

RE: Brighthand is wrong
hkklife @ 4/20/2006 5:09:50 PM # Q
David (or anyone else);

Do you have ANY idea/insight if there is to be a 700P on any carrier other than Sprint? Like Verizon in particular (my current carrier who I've been with ~8 years)?

That would be the major issue standing in the way of me at least giving a Treo a shot...but here in the sticks, Verizon is the only carrier to have if you care at all about coverage once you leave a major metro area or interstate.


Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5-->TX

RE: Brighthand is wrong
SeldomVisitor @ 4/20/2006 5:20:16 PM # Q
Do you have ANY idea/insight if there is to be a 700P.
RE: Brighthand is wrong
PenguinPowered @ 4/20/2006 5:28:42 PM # Q
Also, it sounds like Palm's own Linux OS is looking more and more likely to be the "Palm OS" of the future, as opposed to ALP.

In Linux land, nothing is ever that simple. ;)


May You Live in Interesting Times

RE: Brighthand is wrong
AdamaDBrown @ 4/20/2006 6:17:39 PM # Q
Actually "Hollywood" and "Lowrider" did NOT come from an 8 month old Morgan Stanley report, they came from a 6 month old Sagio report (the one where they forgot to mention that they'd just bought 5% of Palm). And it's not that there currently isn't a device called "Hollywood," it's that there never was a Hollywood, period. The report was erroneous in its entirity. Last but not least, a blind man could tell you that there's three more Treos coming this year, since it't only been mentioned a half dozen times whenever a Palm exec comes within shouting distance of a microphone. Sorry if I come off as hostile, but it annoys me when someone comes out and blithely says "Oh, you're completely wrong," apparently without knowing the facts.

hkklife, Sprint will likely have an exclusive with whatever they may release, so it would be some months before anyone else could or would offer it. At this point, we don't know Verizon's current disposition towards Palm OS devices, and they have not inclined in any direction that I'm aware of, so it's still up in the air.

SeldomVisitor,

The Magic 8-Ball says "Outlook good. Ask again next month."

RE: Brighthand is wrong
cervezas @ 4/20/2006 6:41:42 PM # Q
AdamaDBrown wrote
Actually "Hollywood" and "Lowrider" did NOT come from an 8 month old Morgan Stanley report, they came from a 6 month old Sagio report

This is incorrect. The Sagio report was dated September, not November. And the codenames were reported by a Morgan Stanley analyst in Asia who covers HTC. Sagio was just repeating the information. Presumably the codenames were HTC's rather than Palm's. Perhaps that's where the confusion arises?

Sorry if I come off as hostile, but it annoys me when someone comes out and blithely says "Oh, you're completely wrong," apparently without knowing the facts.

I'm sorry if I came off as not "knowing the facts." I don't claim to know everything, but before you get too annoyed you might consider that you might not have all the facts either. Furthermore, given the abiguity over the code names it seems to me that we may be describing different ends of the same elephant rather than actually disagreeing.

I don't know whether the Morgan Stanley guy got the code names right and I don't know whose code names they were if he did. My point was that based on the most recent information I've got, the thrust of Sagio's report seems to be correct: after the 700p (confirmed: it exists) there's a new Windows Mobile Treo aimed at the European market and a new Palm OS Garnet Treo.

I've got some more detailed information to report about upcoming Treos but I gotta save something for my own blog, don't I?


David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: Brighthand is wrong
Surur @ 4/20/2006 6:58:39 PM # Q
Didn't the Sagio report precede Ed Colligan's December 2005 announcement of 4 new Treos? What's the time line like? And didn't Sagio claim the report was even months older than that? I still think the reports reflect accurately Palm's current plans.

Surur

They said I only argued for the sake of arguing, but after an hour I convinced them they were wrong...

RE: Brighthand is wrong
AdamaDBrown @ 4/20/2006 8:12:51 PM # Q
This is incorrect. The Sagio report was dated September, not November.

Actually, it was dated October, but only published in November.

And the codenames were reported by a Morgan Stanley analyst in Asia who covers HTC. Sagio was just repeating the information.

No, Sagio referred to an anonymous MS analyst, cited nowhere else, who supposedly estimated production (they didn't specify of what) at 200,000 units a month. They didn't attribute the Hollywood and Lowrider information to Morgan Stanley. I for one find the lack of attribution and references highly curious, for a document that's supposedly a serious financial report.

I must note, the original Sagio report also claimed that the 700p would be out in January simultaneous to the 700w, and the Hollywood and Lowrider would be out in March. Considering this--and the atrocious english in what's supposed to be a serious research report--I find it surprising that people still rely on it as a roadmap of Palm's plans.

Presumably the codenames were HTC's rather than Palm's. Perhaps that's where the confusion arises?

HTC doesn't usually assign names to contracted units, only the devices they build themselves to resell, like the Wizard.

RE: Brighthand is wrong
cervezas @ 4/20/2006 10:57:00 PM # Q
I stand corrected: you're right that the Sagio report was posted in October. It bears repeating that it was posted *before* not after Sagio became PALM's third largest stakeholder. Sagio was also, to my knowledge, the first to report the later release date for the 700p. But all these dates were reported and subsequently updated by other analysts as well, so while schedules slip it's simply not the case that Sagio made up that Palm told them these were the plans.

As for the information I gave about the source of the "Hollywood" and "Lowrider" code names, let's just say it was not based on the Sagio report and leave it at that.

I'm not sure why we're so hung up on these names anyway, as they were stated from the start to be code names, not product names. If it makes you feel better to say that "Hollywood" never existed it's ok by me. Just realize that by whatever name you please there *is* a real Treo that is aimed at the fashion-conscious European market, that it will run Windows Mobile, and that it's coming Real Soon Now. A new Palm OS Treo will follow that, although I don't have much information about that one.

If you've got some reliable information that contradicts this, I'm sure we'd all like to hear it. I'm certainly open to new information.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: Brighthand is wrong
AdamaDBrown @ 4/21/2006 1:48:35 AM # Q
Perhaps you'd like to meet somewhere with a ruler and settle this once and for all. :P

so while schedules slip it's simply not the case that Sagio made up that Palm told them these were the plans.

My information suggests differently.

As for the information I gave about the source of the "Hollywood" and "Lowrider" code names, let's just say it was not based on the Sagio report and leave it at that.

Oooh booga booga.

Just realize that by whatever name you please there *is* a real Treo that is aimed at the fashion-conscious European market, that it will run Windows Mobile, and that it's coming Real Soon Now.

If you call getting in line with practically every other major manufacturer by bringing the antenna internal, "aiming at Europe," maybe. But an antennaless GSM 700w isn't the same thing as the "Hollywood" was billed as. Feel free to think that it is, if you like.

Real Soon Now... no. Not for several months, at least.

RE: Brighthand is wrong
marcol @ 4/21/2006 5:13:42 AM # Q
David Beers: 'I've got some more detailed information to report about upcoming Treos but I gotta save something for my own blog, don't I?'

Of course, but not for too long I hope.

RE: Brighthand is wrong
cervezas @ 4/21/2006 8:36:22 AM # Q
AdamaDBrown wrote:
But an antennaless GSM 700w isn't the same thing as the "Hollywood" was billed as.

Hollywood was never "billed" as anything but this:

"a fancier 3G/GSM smartphone which will represent PALM's first attempt at the European GSM market. We know the phone will have no external antenna and will probably he launched by Cingular in the US." (http://www.palminfocenter.com/view_story.asp?ID=8224)

To my knowledge, the rest of the information about this plan (like that it was going to be "a very thin 3G device" or a "clamshell") was just people letting their imagination run wild in answer to the question "what does Palm think Europeans will buy?" So calling it a hoax while apparently agreeing with the substance of the report is a bit disingenuous. As is mocking the fact that I have to keep my source confidential when you apparently have the same problem.

One thing to think about when it comes to what is meant by an "attempt at the European market": it's only about the phone itself insofar as Palm had to convince a major European operator to release it. After that the attempt is all about marketing. I expect changes to the Treo to be incremental in degree but many in number.

I'll post on my blog later today for those who were waiting. Just a couple of other tidbits to report.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: Brighthand is wrong
cervezas @ 4/21/2006 12:04:31 PM # Q
More info about the upcoming Treos posted on my blog now: http://www.pikesoft.com/blog/index.php?itemid=67

The highlights:

* "Hollywood" (or whatever you want to call it) will be released on Vodaphone's network in July. Released in 5 markets with a big marketing splash.

* "Low Rider" may not be the fourth Treo in Palm's 2006 line-up after all. There will be a fourth Treo, but a model that sounds more like Low Rider to me was stated to have an expected 2007 release

There's also some info about Palm and ACCESS/Palmsource that I'll post at a later time, pertaining to the question about the Palm OS'es Linux future.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: Brighthand is wrong
marcol @ 4/21/2006 12:27:00 PM # Q
As a Vodafone (UK) customer I find that a very interesting tidbit! Thanks. Did your source give you any info on the radio? HSDPA would be just tickety-boo!

RE: Brighthand is wrong
cervezas @ 4/21/2006 12:53:58 PM # Q
marcol wrote:
Did your source give you any info on the radio?

No, he didn't. I don't follow the European handset market that much, but are European operators releasing *any* high-end smartphones these days that *aren't* 3G? My guess is no. And I can't imagine Palm having much success breaking down Europe's resistance to the Treos with a handset that wasn't 3G (i.e. HSDPA in Vodaphone's case).

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: Brighthand is wrong
Surur @ 4/21/2006 1:15:01 PM # Q

There are many WM smartphones on the various networks in UK, but only 1 3G one, the very large HTC Universal (which I now have the pleasure of owning).

In short, for the current devices being released 3G is not a prerequisite. However devices released 6 months from now probably need to be 3G.

Surur

They said I only argued for the sake of arguing, but after an hour I convinced them they were wrong...

RE: Brighthand is wrong
cervezas @ 4/21/2006 1:19:36 PM # Q
So what do you think, Surer? Would running Windows Mobile and lopping off the antenna stub be perceived by Vodaphone as enough to make Vodaphone release this Treo now, or would Palm have to sweeten the pot with an HSDPA radio?

Since the point was made that the release is to be a big media event similar to the one we had for the 700w in the US that seems to say 3G, in my opinion.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: Brighthand is wrong
Surur @ 4/21/2006 1:42:53 PM # Q

Oh yes, it would have to be 3G if anyone was to make a fuss about it. On the other hand I havnt seen anyone make a fuss about smartphones here for a long time. They are just too common and diverse. The lack of features would also make it difficult to crow about anything.

T9 text messaging is very popular and common here, so the built-in keyboard will not be seen as such a big advantage here as in USA. Data is also very expensive here, so WIFI would make it more attractive (and I bet this device does not have it).

Blackberries have also caught on here to a degree, so just like in UK, it could be positioned as a Blackberry competitor. Many smartphones here are sold to consumers, but frankly that leaked device is not attractive enough, and lacks a video conferencing camera, which means it would be impossible to sell to consumers as a 3G phone.

Palm will have a tough job differentiating themselves over here. To tell the truth, the market is very superficial here. It mainly needs to be pretty, but this device isn't.

Surur

They said I only argued for the sake of arguing, but after an hour I convinced them they were wrong...

RE: Brighthand is wrong
AdamaDBrown @ 4/21/2006 2:46:23 PM # Q
"a fancier 3G/GSM smartphone which will represent PALM's first attempt at the European GSM market.

Emphasis on fancier, which implies a slimmer and more stylish design. The fact that this was listed seperately from the antenna implies that that wasn't to be the extent of the renovations.

So calling it a hoax while apparently agreeing with the substance of the report is a bit disingenuous.

I'm simply backing what my source says: that the "Hollywood" as reported does not and never did exist. That doesn't preclude the existence of a Treo which runs on UMTS, but they aren't the same, either.

As is mocking the fact that I have to keep my source confidential when you apparently have the same problem.

I'm not mocking confidentiality. I personally am saying as much as I can without running the risk of getting sued by a two-billion dollar corporation, which is not something that I think I would enjoy. I simply think that you're perhaps taking this whole cloak-and-dagger deal a bit too seriously. Also, I suggest that you whack some of your sources with a stick, because they're giving you some bad information. It's highly doubtful that we'll see anything other than the 700p within the next few months.

RE: Brighthand is wrong
marcol @ 4/21/2006 2:47:00 PM # Q
Surur: "Data is also very expensive here"

Except for T-Mobile with their new web 'n' walk deals:

http://www.t-mobile.co.uk/Dispatcher?menuid=plans_webnwalk

I hope the other operators feel the need to respond to this.

RE: Brighthand is wrong
Surur @ 4/21/2006 3:06:38 PM # Q
Thats what got me to buy my MDA Pro a few weeks ago. Unlimited at 7.50/month is just too irresistible. I dont even use WIFI anymore. All those people who spoke about the lack of need for WIFI if you have cheap high speed WAN were right ;)

Surur

They said I only argued for the sake of arguing, but after an hour I convinced them they were wrong...

RE: Brighthand is wrong
ChiA @ 4/21/2006 10:53:58 PM # Q
Surer said:
[T-Mobile web 'n' walk deals], Unlimited at 7.50/month is just too irresistible.

Have you read the small print? Sadly unlimited has its resistible limitations:

To ensure a high quality of service for all our customers, they are not to be used for other activities such as (but not limited to): modem access for computers, internet based video/audio streaming services, peer to peer file sharing, internet based video download and internet based telephony. If such use is detected, notice may be given, after which network protection controls may be applied which will result in a reduced speed of transmission.

So you can forget about using Skype (or all the other fun stuff) on that new MDA Pro.

:(

Reply to this comment

Verizon Treo 700p surfaces !!!

Surur @ 4/20/2006 7:36:26 PM # Q

The prerequisite blurry pictures available at TreoCentral.

http://discussion.treocentral.com/showthread.php?t=112380

Surur

They said I only argued for the sake of arguing, but after an hour I convinced them they were wrong...

RE: Verizon Treo 700p surfaces !!!
AdamaDBrown @ 4/20/2006 9:20:03 PM # Q
Interesting. I was expecting the 700p to be Sprint exclusive for a few months. This shakes up the field a bit, assuming that the pics are real.

RE: Verizon Treo 700p surfaces !!!
Simony @ 4/21/2006 9:02:36 PM # Q
RE: Verizon Treo 700p surfaces !!!
hkklife @ 4/21/2006 10:57:56 PM # Q
Ok, WHO here thinks the Verizon Treo is a real and who does not?
Any reasons to think why Verizon would suddly become VERY "Pro-Palm" (both the OS & the company)?

My personal take on it?

-Sprint 700P is real and the release/announcement is imminent.

-Sprint 700W will follow late summer or fall

-Verizon 700P is a hoax or, at best, a VERY late entry.

-Palm is going to focus on CDMA Treos for the time being...especially the final one or two Garnet Treos.

-GSM markets/carriers seem most likely to receive only WinMob powered new Treos.

I think the "major" 650 firmware update is a hoax. However, there were several reports from late last year saying that a MAJOR Treo 650 update was in the works and would be released down the road. I think that Palm might do a moderately substantial update (FAT32 driver, memory/speed optimizations, Blazer/VM updates) but the wi-fi drivers are not gonna happen on a 650 nor is PTunes or Drive Mode.

Remember folks, Palm's now a hardware company. They consider things which COULD be fixed/improved via free/cheap software reasons all the more reason to buy new hardware.

Another wild theory is that Palm has no proper Garnet Treo in the world for GSM and it could be releasing this major ROM update only to Cingular & global GSM carriers. This might be a clever way to milk another 6-12 months of life out of the GSM Treo 650.

Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5-->TX

RE: Verizon Treo 700p surfaces !!!
Simony @ 4/21/2006 11:31:50 PM # Q
> I think the "major" 650 firmware update is a hoax. However, there were several reports from late last year saying that a MAJOR Treo 650 update was in the works and would be released down the road. I think that Palm might do a moderately substantial update (FAT32 driver, memory/speed optimizations, Blazer/VM updates) but the wi-fi drivers are not gonna happen on a 650 nor is PTunes or Drive Mode.

Yeh, you are probably right, but I sure hope it's not a hoax. The rumours about the update including BB Connect are especially interesting. As for PTunes, well, I'd never use it - but it does come preloaded with the TX - I guess it's possible that Palm has done a deal with the developer which allows them to add it a little or no cost. Also, it would be easy for Palm to add Drive Mode, so why wouldn't they do it?

Has anybody heard if this 'hoax' is supposed to be a free update?

As for carriers not being partial to Palm OS Treos, I'm prepared to wait and see what happens on this. When you think about it, the carriers seemed to do OK with Treo 600/650 sales (and they didn't seem to suffer the kind of problems they faced with some of the earlier PPC models), so why wouldn't they go for a Treo 700p model? OTOH, if your contacts at the carriers say otherwise, then naturally I would defer to you (since I'm just speculating).

RE: Verizon Treo 700p surfaces !!!
Simony @ 4/21/2006 11:45:13 PM # Q
PS. I don't think it's right to say that Palm is just a hardware company. Sure they have put the PalmSource saga behind them, but it seems that they are still doing their own would with OS5.x (or FrankenGarnet as you call it). In so far as WinCE is concerned, they Palm seem to be working with M$ to help iron out the kinks - that's a whole lot more than any hardware company would normally do. For these reasons, I think of Palm as more of a 'solutions company' these days; rather someone who just sells hardware. YMMV.

RE: Verizon Treo 700p surfaces !!!
hkklife @ 4/22/2006 12:18:11 AM # Q
Good points about Palm being a "solutions provider". However, the main gist of my previous posts was that "Palm doesn't bring any revenue in from software sales or OS upgrades. Giving away OS updates, unless the usual critical bugfixes, doesn't do anything but burn up $ (in Palm's eyes) so that's why their main focus is to sell as many new devices as possible without looking back."

Since Palm seems to be doing such a good being a "solutions provider" (relatively speaking) nowadays it makes you wonder why they ever spun off the OS business. Oh wait, don't mind that last comments...



Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5-->TX

RE: Verizon Treo 700p surfaces !!!
Simony @ 4/22/2006 1:19:36 AM # Q
True, except that by providing updates, Palm demonstrates that it stands behind its products all the way. Probably, a ROM update is not be a very costly initiative, to the extent to which that it merely involves improvements which have been already been developed for inclusion in forthcoming models. If that's right, it would be a good business decision to provide such updates to existing customers for little or no fee, because if it's done right (eg no installation bug) it enhances goodwill among existing users. In a way, this is just another example of what Mr Colligan says about 'delighting the customer'. That can only have a positive effect on future sales (although this is probably unmeasurable).

NB. I have a vague recollection that, in the first press release relating to the BB Connect partnership (seems like a thousand years ago now), they said something to the effect that 'pricing will be determined'. So, depending on what kind of deal they have cut with RIM, Palm may need to charge something for the 'hoax' ROM update (if it ever materialises, that is).

You have already pointed out that a major ROM update is a way of enhancing the Treo 650's shelf-life - I agree with that, and also your point about the likelihood of that model being around for a while yet. Maybe, if the Treo 700p is ever released, Palm will drop the price of the Treo 650 so that it becomes the 'low cost' model which everyone seems to yearn for. (I doubt it will go into the $200-$300 price range, though.)

RE: Verizon Treo 700p surfaces !!!
Simony @ 4/22/2006 2:48:17 AM # Q
More rantings of an insomniac ...

You know, if this 700p thing is ever released, Palm is going to have a real marketing challenge on their hands.

How do they distinguish this thing from the 700w model?

What's the message they put to customers as to why they should buy one and not the other?

(I'd like to be a fly on the wall when they do the training sessions for the carriers' salesmen.)

Also, I guess reviewers will start to get their hands on these things in the next couple of weeks (subject to ironclad NDAs, no doubt). The reviewers will also have a tough job - do they compare it to say a 650 or a 700w?

Pricing will also be interesting, seeing that Verizon has already started to cut its prices on the 700w.

Any thoughts, anyone?

Now is the time for all good men to come to the aid of their profits.

RE: Verizon Treo 700p surfaces !!!
SeldomVisitor @ 4/22/2006 9:18:32 AM # Q
The second post in this thread overtly describes in detail what a "new smartphone" could be.

That last point of the description is key, IMHO.

Blackberry Connect anyone? (and nothing else?)


RE: Verizon Treo 700p surfaces !!!
SeldomVisitor @ 4/22/2006 9:38:30 AM # Q
Pardon...THIS post is what I meant:

-- http://www.palminfocenter.com/comments/8537/#121480

RE: Verizon Treo 700p surfaces !!!
AdamaDBrown @ 4/22/2006 2:05:01 PM # Q
Also, I guess reviewers will start to get their hands on these things in the next couple of weeks (subject to ironclad NDAs, no doubt).

Actually, that's not terribly likely. There are almost never advance review units for smartphones. Something about working with the carrier(s) makes it impossible, apparently, to arrange pre-release distribution. (Shrug)

RE: Verizon Treo 700p surfaces !!!
cervezas @ 4/22/2006 4:20:06 PM # Q
hkklife wrote:
Ok, WHO here thinks the Verizon Treo is a real and who does not?

I say real.

In fact, I pretty much know it's real (whether or not the pictures are faked). ;-)


David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: Verizon Treo 700p surfaces !!!
Simony @ 4/22/2006 5:14:37 PM # Q
> Actually, that's not terribly likely. There are almost never advance review units for smartphones. Something about working with the carrier(s) makes it impossible, apparently, to arrange pre-release distribution. (Shrug)

Well, when the 700w was released, people like Mr Mossberg published reviews virtually on the same day, which suggests that he/others got to play with it beforehand. Perhaps Palm will try to do the same thing this time round (assuming that the 700p is not just the figment of some puerile imagination). Here's another one of my conspiracy theories: Maybe Palm will just pick reviewers who have a broader reach in the popular press, rather than bestowing their 'blessings' on the leading reviewers in the handheld space (such as your good self, AdamaDBrown).

Now is the time for all good men to come to the aid of their profits.

RE: Verizon Treo 700p surfaces !!!
cervezas @ 4/24/2006 12:05:54 AM # Q
A couple of days ago I wrote that I was pretty sure that the Verizon Treo 700p was real. The reason I said that is that my contact with the Palm connection told me he knew the 700p would be released on both Sprint and Verizon. (Interestingly, he also said that Sprint might not get the nice long exclusive on the 700p because they were offered the 700w first and passed on it.)

Then it occurred to me that Verizon is supposed to release the Motorola Q "any day now" and a red flag went up. It got me to wondering whether Palm (or an individual at Palm) would be above leaking something like this as a way to cast a little FUD around the Q. Maybe someone who'd been hanging out with the Microsoft guys too much? ;-)

So now I'm not so sure. Everyone--myself in particular--has got to remember that even "inside" information is not necessarily correct information.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: Verizon Treo 700p surfaces !!!
PenguinPowered @ 4/24/2006 12:32:26 AM # Q
That's even true of insiders. Plans change at the last minute, deals fall through, vendors can't make deliveries.

it ain't, as casey stengel would say, over until it's over.



May You Live in Interesting Times

RE: Verizon Treo 700p surfaces !!!
Simony @ 4/24/2006 1:28:33 AM # Q
Sounds like the fat lady is just clearing her throat, and may/may not sing when/if she feels like it.

Any word from your 'deep throat' on the hoax update?

Now is the time for all good men to come to the aid of their profits.

RE: Verizon Treo 700p surfaces !!!
cervezas @ 4/24/2006 1:55:44 AM # Q
PenguinPowered wrote:
That's even true of insiders. Plans change at the last minute, deals fall through, vendors can't make deliveries.

That's my point. And not all these unexpected changes are for the worse. For example, my "Deep Throat" hinted that the Vodaphone Treo deal I mentioned earlier wasn't in Palm's plans last Fall and resulted in them pushing back certain changes they'd planned for the Treo line until 2007. I get the feeling that Palm is having to make mid-stream adaptations to product plans on a shorter horizon than we might suppose in response to market developments. I'm fairly sure that they are feeling their way along in their OS plans, watching the market response to gauge whether their product plan should lean more toward Windows Mobile or Linux.

I notice some of their recent job postings even mention agile development and Extreme Programming--signs that they are focused on improving their ability to deal with sudden changes in design requirements. (Whether XP really helps them do that or not is another story.)

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: Verizon Treo 700p surfaces !!!
cervezas @ 4/24/2006 2:13:18 AM # Q
Simony wrote:
Any word from your 'deep throat' on the hoax update?

LOL about 'deep throat' :D

Which "hoax update" are you referring to?

Most of what I've learned from him is posted in my blog. There are a couple of things I've decided to keep to myself until I can get some independent confirmation. The thing I feel the most confident about is the information he's given me concerning Palm's Linux plans, since I feel that's independently confirmed by the detailed Linux job descriptions on Palm's web site and Palm's peculiar silence during the ALP announcement.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: Verizon Treo 700p surfaces !!!
cervezas @ 4/24/2006 2:55:12 AM # Q
I don't know if you call speculation by another analyst "independent confirmation" of anything but the existence of herd mentality, but for what it's worth, Caris thought VZW was likely to be the first to release *both* the 700w and the 700p:

http://www.forbes.com/markets/2006/02/01/palm-earnings-0201markets10.html?partner=rss

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: Verizon Treo 700p surfaces !!!
Simony @ 4/24/2006 9:12:26 AM # Q
Sorry, this is the 'hoax' update:

http://gadgetsonthego.net/2006/04/rumor-major-treo-650-firmware-update.html

Get with the program! ;^)

Now is the time for all good men to come to the aid of their profits.

RE: Verizon Treo 700p surfaces !!!
Simony @ 4/24/2006 9:20:08 AM # Q
> I'm fairly sure that they are feeling their way along in their OS plans, watching the market response to gauge whether their product plan should lean more toward Windows Mobile or Linux.

Not sure what is meant by this. How can they do market testing on a Linux based OS that doesn't even exist?

Picture this question on a market survey:

'Dear Customer, do you prefer a) WinCE; or b) a Linux based OS we might be conjure up in a couple of years if we feel like it (maybe)?'

To me, that sounds like a choice between the devil you know and the devil you don't know. If this is what they do to ascertain market preferences, then we had all better get used to those ridiculous Start menus, bloated title/tool bars and useless Today screens.

On the other hand, the Linux thing (which for all I know may be no more than a glint in the eye of Mr Haitani et al, at this stage) has the look-and-feel of Palm OS5.x, then maybe they can do some meaningful testing.

PS. In asking these questions, I'm not trying to start another flame-war on the relative merits on rival operating systems. If the 'usual suspects' want to beat each other up again on this issue, please count me out. (For the record, OS5.4.x works just fine for the things that I need to do and I don't much care what happens under the hood.)

Now is the time for all good men to come to the aid of their profits.

RE: Verizon Treo 700p surfaces !!!
cervezas @ 4/24/2006 11:01:22 AM # Q
I just mean that right now I think they are gauging where releasing devices with a Linux OS fits in their priorities based on how well they do with Windows Mobile. It's like that old Frogger game: it's all about which log you jump on and when you do it.

My impression so far is that they are very happy with Windows Mobile and expect to be able to make further improvements in the WM user experience in future products. But I also have the strong impression that they have no intention of becoming completely a Microsoft shop. And the ACCESS/PalmSource relationship is, shall we say, a quandary for them at this time (if you believe the information I'm hearing, which should *not* be a given).

I have no information about the 650 firmware update.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: Verizon Treo 700p surfaces !!!
hkklife @ 4/24/2006 1:33:46 PM # Q
I've got nothing to go on but Palm's past history of (non) updates and my intuition but I think that a final Treo 650 update IS coming. However, it'll be nowhere near as comprehensive as the recent rumor purports it to be.

I'd wager on BB Connect (for some carriers) being the "main" draw and then small tweaks to the NVFS system and maybe a Blazer or VM update. FAT 32 would be conceivable but unlikely. At least the Treo 650 DOES support 2gb cards in its current state. WI-FI drivers ain't gonna happen in the 650's lifetime.


Pilot 1000-->Pilot 5000-->PalmPilot Pro-->IIIe-->Vx-->m505-->T|T-->T|T2-->T|C-->T|T3-->T|T5-->TX

RE: Verizon Treo 700p surfaces !!!
Simony @ 4/26/2006 7:24:21 AM # Q
Yeh, that's probably right. Over at the 1src.com forums they say that the Drive Mode files (from a T5/LifeDrive, I guess) don't run on a device with a 320 x 320 screen. This suggests that it will take some work to port Drive Mode to a Treo 650, so scratch what I said above on this. (I'd be delighted to be proved wrong, if the update is ever released, that is.)

Now is the time for all good men to come to the aid of their profits.
Reply to this comment

Canalys numbers for Q12006 out

Surur @ 4/26/2006 7:33:53 PM # Q

The Canalys figures for Q1 2006 are out. They skipped Q42005, so these are the first real numbers for 6 months.

http://www.canalys.com/pr/2006/r2006043.htm

It makes for moderately interesting reading. Symbian is really consolidating its lead, and expanding very vigorously into Asia. Its now less dependent on Nokia, who still sells 70% of Symbian handhelds (down from 80% however). The centre of gravity for smart mobile devices is moving east very fast.

MS is the number two OS vendor, but lost market share (down from 18.3% to 12%) YoY, and also sold about the same number of licenses (1.97 million vs 2 million). ( http://www.canalys.com/pr/2005/r2005041.htm ) The static numbers are likely due to the crash in non-phone PDA's. Palm shipped 1.03610 devices, including the Treo 700w. POS share was not quantified, and it can no longer be deduced, as Palm also ships WM products. In the old battle between WM and POS, its however almost certain to be > 66%vs33%.

Lastly, the unit sales of non-converged handheld devices have really slipped, and I question whether anyone will still be making them in a year's time.

Surur

They said I only argued for the sake of arguing, but after an hour I convinced them they were wrong...

RE: Canalys numbers for Q12006 out
Simony @ 4/26/2006 11:28:31 PM # Q
I find some of these numbers difficult to understand. They don't seem to fit well with what I'm seeing on a day to day basis. I'll give you an example. Whenever I go to a meeting with clients, almost everyone has a Blackberry (I'm talking say 90%+). It has even got to the stage where, if I take my Treo 650 or my TE with me, I'm inevitably asked: 'What kind of Blackerry is that?'. I also see lots of people in building lobbies or walking down the street engaged in deep and meaningful conversations with their Blackberries. Sure, I see lots of people with Nokia phones too, but usually just the cheaper models - which I believe are just phones. But the Canalys figures have always shown Nokia being miles ahead of RIM when it comes to 'smart' devices. What gives?

Now is the time for all good men to come to the aid of their profits.
RE: Canalys numbers for Q12006 out
cervezas @ 4/27/2006 12:04:05 AM # Q
What gives is that the US has a rather small smartphone market relative to Asia and even Europe. BlackBerry and Palm may be dominant here, but Windows Mobile and especially Symbian are overwhelmingly dominant outside the US.

Looks like Palm sold about 580,000 Treos, which is about one for every 15 Nokia smartphones sold. Amazing when you consider how rare a Nokia smartphone is over here. Even the S60 phones are quite uncommon here.

David Beers
Pikesoft Mobile Computing
Software Everywhere blog
www.pikesoft.com/blog

RE: Canalys numbers for Q12006 out
AdamaDBrown @ 4/27/2006 12:21:27 AM # Q
Surur wrote:
Palm shipped 1.03610 devices, including the Treo 700w.

You need to be careful with those European punctuation conventions. In the US, that statement would mean that Palm had shipped only one single device all quarter, which would be quite the phenomenon. :P

POS share was not quantified, and it can no longer be deduced, as Palm also ships WM products.

I vaguely recall something to the effect that the 700w was on track to sell 150k units for the quarter, but that would be just a guess.

Lastly, the unit sales of non-converged handheld devices have really slipped, and I question whether anyone will still be making them in a year's time.

Bah. Philistine.

Simony wrote:
But the Canalys figures have always shown Nokia being miles ahead of RIM when it comes to 'smart' devices. What gives?

Well, I seem to give this rant pretty much every time new sales figures come out--now is as good as ever. :)

The reality is that a lot of those Series 60 "smartphones" are, basically, just phones. They have some third-party software compatibility, and a certain amount of memory, and expansion slots, but for the most part they're just phones. Most of the people who use them would never think of them as a "smartphone," nor would they even realize that there's an operating system on their phone.

The main difference between a Series 60 "smartphone" and an average "dumb" Java phone is basically the kernel. The applications are similarly limited, whether you're talking about midlets or S60.

There was a study a couple of years ago about how many people used at least one third-party program on their mobile devices. The answers were something like 50% for Palm, 70% for Windows, and in the single digits for Series 60. Most people who own them don't treat them as computing devices. There are a few which do deserve the name, of course--the E series is fairly impressive. But there's a lot of them that are basically on the level of a Z22-style organizer molded into a cell phone. It would never even really be neccessary to have the Symbian kernel in these things, but Nokia likes having the bragging rights it gives them to being the #1 smartphone manufacturer.

RE: Canalys numbers for Q12006 out
Surur @ 4/27/2006 2:13:00 AM # Q
The reality is that a lot of those Series 60 "smartphones" are, basically, just phones. They have some third-party software compatibility, and a certain amount of memory, and expansion slots, but for the most part they're just phones. Most of the people who use them would never think of them as a "smartphone," nor would they even realize that there's an operating system on their phone.

I used to feel the same way, but I have now come round to the view that that is just elitism. What people do with their devices are not really relevant. The question is, why did the OEM decide to use one OS over another. Why did sharp go for Symbian vs windows mobile, or even a cheaper RT-OS? Even Nokia pays out millions to Symbian for the use of the OS (They get 50% back, but still) and the OS has higher BOM needs. It must be fulfilling need, and its a need which WM and of course POS is not managing to fill.

Maybe in the future?

Surur

They said I only argued for the sake of arguing, but after an hour I convinced them they were wrong...

RE: Canalys numbers for Q12006 out
AdamaDBrown @ 4/27/2006 5:20:42 AM # Q
I used to feel the same way, but I have now come round to the view that that is just elitism.

(Shrug) Usage profiles are relevant when you're talking about what category a device falls into. I'd argue that the S60 type "smartphones" don't count as such because that's not the way people use them. They're not intended to be computing devices in the same way that something like a Treo is.

What people do with their devices are not really relevant. The question is, why did the OEM decide to use one OS over another. Why did sharp go for Symbian vs windows mobile, or even a cheaper RT-OS?

Actually, Sharp does use Windows, in their WZERO3 PPC phone, as well as Linux in their Zaurus line. I'm not aware of what Symbian products they have, but I'm guessing that it's a fairly cheap and simple way to get an established interface. Most Symbian users may not realize that they're using an actual OS, but they would recognize that this other phone has the same basic applets that they're used to. Sort of the way Verizon in the States is standardizing all of its phones on the same UI.

RE: Canalys numbers for Q12006 out
Surur @ 4/27/2006 5:47:03 AM # Q

If we go down that route we could as easily say the majority of z22's arnt smart devices, as most of the target market will not add any apps.

The people who will grow the market for smart devices are not so much the people who will do spreadsheets on their device, but those that listen to mp3's, watch videos and take pictures. The challenge for smart devices is to do these things better than dumb devices. I am personally surprised that better flickr intergration is coming to dumb phones before smartphones, and downloading music on the move is coming to the rockr before the Treo. This is a huge failure in my opinion.

Surur

They said I only argued for the sake of arguing, but after an hour I convinced them they were wrong...

RE: Canalys numbers for Q12006 out
Simony @ 4/27/2006 6:25:01 AM # Q
Thanks for the clarification, AdamaDBrown.

I have a confession to make: I have a cheap little Nokia, which I use whenever go back to my TE2 (ie, whenever the stupid keyboard on my Treo 650 forces me to give it up).

Apparently you can load applications onto the Nokia, but I have never tried - one look at the way it works makes me think it would be a pointless exercise. Sure it comes with some basic PIMs too - address book, calendar, todos, etc. But trying to use those is an up-hill battle involving, on the one hand, negotiating your way through a mine-field of nested menus and, on the other hand, fighting to make sense of the T9 text entry system. Yes, I can synch it to my PC, but accessing the data is a real pain.

So, in a way, my cheap little Nokia might qualify as a 'smart' device (depending on what definition of 'smart' you use) since there are organiser functions built-in and the possibility for other applications. The thing is so difficult to use, however, that the 'smart' functions are more theoretical than real (at least for me). The reality is that it's just a phone AFAIK. For instance - on the few occassions I need to send SMS - I just enter into into my TE2 and beam it to the Nokia.

Now is the time for all good men to come to the aid of their profits.

RE: Canalys numbers for Q12006 out
SeldomVisitor @ 4/27/2006 9:05:45 AM # Q
My "free" (from letstalk.com) Sony-Ericsson something-520-something is java-enabled, has a camera, allows picture-caller ID, has an "address book" etc etc etc.

I certainly consider it a "smart" phone.

I have no idea what OS, though, nor care.

RE: Canalys numbers for Q12006 out
Surur @ 4/27/2006 9:38:42 AM # Q
Review of your phone from Amazon

I am 12 years old and through our the last year I have had the Sharp GX10i , VK 530 and Sharp GX25. After selling some of my old stuff I decided to buy this phone. I got it on Vodafone (from the Vodafone website for 100) as all my other phones have been on Vodafone. One of my favourite things about this phone is that you can change the covers on it. My one came with a white cover and a really cool sea blue one. The O2 Z520i doesn't come with a blue cover - it comes with pink! I have the pink cover for my phone now as I got it off eBay. When you flip the phone up the buttons are white and lit up blue which makes it look so cool! When you get a phone call or a text the edge of the phone starts flashing blue which looks so groovy! The Z520i has Bluetooth and Infrared. I have recently learned how to use Bluetooth and Infrared and I love it! Me and my friends send each other pictures and ringtones with Bluetooth and Infrared. The camera is really clear and so is the video. I changed my video settings so I can record videos for up to 10 minutes which comes in handy! When the phone is flipped down if you keep your finger on the camera button at the side you can take a picture of yourself (or anything around you!) without having to flip the phone up. Even though I have an iPod Nano I still have some music on my Z520i because it has an mp3 / media player. I would recommened this phone to anyone. I love it and so will you!

http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000EMQPA8/ref%3Dnosim/kaufenundbe00-21/203-7561756-4269556

Anyway, you underscore what I am talking about. If the OS does not matter to most users, it certainly matters to the phone makers and carriers (to a lesser degree ) If the OEM is chosing another OS the competing company needs to know why and adapt their product to compete e.g. for example adopting the Symbian s60 UI, so the majority of your buyers would be familiar with it.

One should objectively look at what makes the competing OS successful, copy that elements and move on from there.

or does that make too much sense?

Surur

They said I only argued for the sake of arguing, but after an hour I convinced them they were wrong...

RE: Canalys numbers for Q12006 out
PenguinPowered @ 4/27/2006 12:45:43 PM # Q
one could do that and one would become a 'me-too' player. Or one could figure out both the strengths and weaknessess of the competitors phone and try to improve over both with a design that might not copy any of the elements, but rather solve the UI problems in a different way.

Or one could just give up on competing in that market and go be a major player in some other segment.

May You Live in Interesting Times

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