Comments on: Confirmed: iTunes 9 Breaks webOS Media Sync Again

Or not, maybe 1.2.1 will be out soon.
PalmPilot Pro -> Palm 3 -> Palm 5 -> Palm 505 -> Palm T3 -> Treo 700p -> Pre

jca666us said:

I guess those options fell by the wayside - time for them to develop their own sync solution.

Palm has syncing solutions.

1) Media Sync (which works w/ a lot more than just iTunes).
2) Drag & Drop
3) Palm Music Assistant.

Those are in addition to the homebrew solutions that allow music streaming from sources like Shoutcast, Last.fm, etc.

I don't deny that iTunes syncing is important to some people, but it's simply untrue that iTunes syncing is the only way to go with the Pre (or the Pixi).

bhartman34 wrote:
Palm has syncing solutions.

That said, 64GB of flash + OpenGL 2.0 support + a faster CPU will still make for a nice little gaming device if nothing else. IMO the 8GB Touch should've dropped down to $150 or disappeared entirely and a refreshed 16GB version with the faster processor, camera & FM tuner would've make a superb $200 entry.
Pilot 1000->Pilot 5000->PalmPilot Pro->IIIe->Vx->m505->T|T->T|T2->T|C->T|T3->T|T5->Zodiac 2->TX->Verizon Treo 700P->Verizon Treo 755p->?

the iPhone is a wildly successful phone that was/is a game changer.

the Pre is a niche phone with less than stellar success.

what does it say when a fan site like this has one maybe two Pre users? and don't blame Sprint.

As a gaming device (with the ipod touch).

>The PDA graveyard inhabited by old Garnet handhelds or the portable gaming
>console market? Just wanting a clarification there (I ASSUME you meant
>gaming...)

Couldn't be the PDA graveyard as it's technically *not* a PDA.

>I really am stunned to see Apple not putting a camera on the Touch. They
>could really make a strong push into the augmented reality gaming field as
>well as take a nice chunk of the market for those cheap Vado/Flip pocket
>"camcorders".

Agreed with you there - guess Apple doesn't want to have an ipod touch (with video recording) eating into iphone 3gs sales.

If Verizon had the Pre available right NOW, I'd possibly buy one (but not guaranteed).

Under no circumstances woulkd I switch to Sprint (or any other carrier) just to get a Pre (or any other current device from any manufacturer).
Pilot 1000->Pilot 5000->PalmPilot Pro->IIIe->Vx->m505->T|T->T|T2->T|C->T|T3->T|T5->Zodiac 2->TX->Verizon Treo 700P->Verizon Treo 755p->?

September 9, 2009, 6:18 pm
Q&A: Steve Jobs Snipes at Amazon, Praises Ice Cream
By David Pogue

Q.You put a camcorder on the iPod Nano. Why not on the iPod Touch?

A.Originally, we weren't exactly sure how to market the Touch. Was it an iPhone without the phone? Was it a pocket computer? What happened was, what customers told us was, they started to see it as a game machine. Because a lot of the games were free on the store. Customers started to tell us, "You don't know what you've got here — it's a great game machine, with the multitouch screen, the accelerometer, and so on."

We started to market it that way, and it just took off. And now what we really see is it's the lowest-cost way to the App Store, and that's the big draw. So what we were focused on is just reducing the price to $199. We don't need to add new stuff — we need to get the price down where everyone can afford it.

http://bits.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/09/09/in-qa-steve-jobs-snipes-at-amazon-and-praises-ice-cream/

It says PIC's forums died long time ago....
--------------------
Gaurav

Current devices: Treo 650 + Axim X50v
Device graveyard: Palm Vx, Cassiopeia E100, LG Phenom HPC, Palm M515, Treo 300, Treo 600

Moderator, Treocentral

Because, except for only 3 posters, the comments are unemotional and unbiased.

But as always, YMMV, and apparently it does for "the millions who can't be wrong".

Hey Palm! Where's my PDA with Wifi and phone capabilities?

Apple isn't breaking itunes - as itunes was never advertised as syncing with a Pre (except by Palm - the guys who didn't write itunes).

>It is an anti-consumer attitude in effect, even if not in intent.

It's more anti-Palm - as they're doing something with itunes that Apple (the makers of the software) do not want to allow.

As you know, Palm can always use the xml file within itunes for interoperability with itunes, however that would take a real effort by Palm.

Nope. Apple are faced with a clear choice in regards to Palm's Media Sync:

(1) Ignore it, and make iTunes users happy.

(2) Deliberately break it, and make Apple happy.

Yes, (1) would make Palm happy too. The question is: what's more important to Apple? Screwing Palm, or pleasing their customers?

We have our answer.

Let's look at it another way. Let's say that somehow, Palm could emulate iPhone software and they began piggybacking off the App Store. Apple would break compatibility, and you would cry anti-competitive because the devices don't have access to apps that someone already purchased, and those apps are keeping people locked into Apple.

Except in the real case, the media files are available, and Palm just has to create their own desktop sync program and plug it into iTunes' files. I don't think it is unreasonable to ask companies to make their own sync. I do think it is unreasonable to spoof the competition so that you have to do less work.

abosco wrote:
You are entitled to your opinion. Just realize that it's wrong.

Let's look at it another way. Let's say that somehow, Palm could emulate iPhone software and they began piggybacking off the App Store. Apple would break compatibility, and you would cry anti-competitive because the devices don't have access to apps that someone already purchased, and those apps are keeping people locked into Apple.

Except in the real case, the media files are available, and Palm just has to create their own desktop sync program and plug it into iTunes' files. I don't think it is unreasonable to ask companies to make their own sync. I do think it is unreasonable to spoof the competition so that you have to do less work.

The problem with that analysis, as I see it, is that iTunes isn't doing anything special to sync. All Apple would have to do to sync with every media player out there (that supports USB) is to simply remove that check. Let's be really clear here: The issue isn't that people love the iTunes functionality so much that they can't live without using iTunes. The issue here is that people are used to using iTunes. Even if you create another app to do the syncing, some people still want their iTunes, because it's familiar, like an old pair of sneakers.

Palm already has three other methods of syncing music files (besides using iTunes), so it's not like you can say they didn't do the work. More importantly, though, the problem is that this isn't really about Apple not wanting their work stolen. It's about Apple trying to protect iPods and iPhones by claiming that there's a "special relationship" between them and iTunes. That special relationship is sustained only by this cheesy, ineffective VID check, though. And the reality is, any homebrew developer could easily go in and modify the WebOS code to do the same thing that Palm has been doing, because what Apple's using for "security" here isn't a secure piece of data. The USB metadata is available for all to see:

Bus 002 Device 011: ID 05ac:8002 Apple, Inc.
Device Descriptor:
bLength 18
bDescriptorType 1
bcdUSB 2.00
bDeviceClass 0 (Defined at Interface level)
bDeviceSubClass 0
bDeviceProtocol 0
bMaxPacketSize0 64
idVendor 0x05ac Apple, Inc.
idProduct 0x8002
bcdDevice 0.16
iManufacturer 1 Palm Inc.
iProduct 2 Pre
iSerial 3 4ab9ad039bf3bc6
bNumConfigurations 1
Configuration Descriptor:
bLength 9
bDescriptorType 2
wTotalLength 62
bNumInterfaces 2
bConfigurationValue 1
iConfiguration 4 Composite 500mA
bmAttributes 0xc0
Self Powered
MaxPower 500mA
Interface Descriptor:
bLength 9
bDescriptorType 4
bInterfaceNumber 0
bAlternateSetting 0
bNumEndpoints 2
bInterfaceClass 8 Mass Storage
bInterfaceSubClass 6 SCSI
bInterfaceProtocol 80 Bulk (Zip)
iInterface 17 Mass Storage
Endpoint Descriptor:
bLength 7
bDescriptorType 5
bEndpointAddress 0x81 EP 1 IN
bmAttributes 2
Transfer Type Bulk
Synch Type None
Usage Type Data
wMaxPacketSize 0x0200 1x 512 bytes
bInterval 0
Endpoint Descriptor:
bLength 7
bDescriptorType 5
bEndpointAddress 0x01 EP 1 OUT
bmAttributes 2
Transfer Type Bulk
Synch Type None
Usage Type Data
wMaxPacketSize 0x0200 1x 512 bytes
bInterval 1
Interface Descriptor:
bLength 9
bDescriptorType 4
bInterfaceNumber 1
bAlternateSetting 0
bNumEndpoints 3
bInterfaceClass 255 Vendor Specific Class
bInterfaceSubClass 71
bInterfaceProtocol 17
iInterface 20 novacom linux
Endpoint Descriptor:
bLength 7
bDescriptorType 5
bEndpointAddress 0x82 EP 2 IN
bmAttributes 2
Transfer Type Bulk
Synch Type None
Usage Type Data
wMaxPacketSize 0x0200 1x 512 bytes
bInterval 0
Endpoint Descriptor:
bLength 7
bDescriptorType 5
bEndpointAddress 0x02 EP 2 OUT
bmAttributes 2
Transfer Type Bulk
Synch Type None
Usage Type Data
wMaxPacketSize 0x0200 1x 512 bytes
bInterval 1
Endpoint Descriptor:
bLength 7
bDescriptorType 5
bEndpointAddress 0x83 EP 3 IN
bmAttributes 3
Transfer Type Interrupt
Synch Type None
Usage Type Data
wMaxPacketSize 0x0008 1x 8 bytes
bInterval 6
Device Qualifier (for other device speed):
bLength 10
bDescriptorType 6
bcdUSB 2.00
bDeviceClass 0 (Defined at Interface level)
bDeviceSubClass 0
bDeviceProtocol 0
bMaxPacketSize0 64
bNumConfigurations 1
Device Status: 0x0001
Self Powered

Now, the way I see it, Apple's only choices, if they want to go that route (again) are to check the Manfuacturer or Product ID. If they check the Manufacturer ID, that's easy enough for Palm (or a homebrew developer) to change. The Product ID might be more problematic for Palm to change, but it's a more problematic check for iTunes to run.

But the point is, if they keep going down this road, Apple will have to do constant updates, and their updates will be much harder to do (because they have more devices to account for) than the Palm updates.

Seems like checkmate to me, except Apple hasn't apparently recognized it yet.

Perfectly stated!

The idea that someone might want to use their software and shop at their well-stocked store but not use their hardware really doesn't compute with them, does it?

You can download the tracks from the iTunes Music Store and use it on any device.

I don't moan that I can't use Internet Explorer to burn DVDs or Powerpoint to watch my bids on eBay so why should people moan about not using iTunes with the Pre? Steve Jobs has stated before that iTunes was there primarily to sell iPods etc.

Yet you still have the choice of using music downloaded from the store on any device, not just an iPod. You still have the choice of being able to use any other suitable program to sync this music with a non-Apple media player.

I see Palm's behaviour tantamount to crashing through the supermarket roof to do your shopping because it's closed and you can't get through the front door.
Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital. Aaron Levenstein

iTunes (especially under Windows) sucks.

Palm's abandonment of desktop-resident sync/connectivity components sucks but that's how it's going to be from here on.

Palm's continued attempts to slip the Pre into the iPod/iTunes ecosystem also suck.

Palm needs to just drop the iTunes matter entirely like they did with Graffiti 1 and pretend it never existed. They're good at doing that sort of thing. Palm should be devoting their precious resources & manpower to improving WebOS and churning out new hardware, not playing this pitiful game of cat & mouse. If nothing else, shell out a few $ to have a Palm co-branded version of WinAmp or similar included with their new WebOS devices for those users who don't want to drag & drop.

iPhone OS 3.x aside, Apple's had a very ho-hum year but I think they are ramping up for a big tablet-centric 2010 and/or dropping the AT&T exclusivity.
Pilot 1000->Pilot 5000->PalmPilot Pro->IIIe->Vx->m505->T|T->T|T2->T|C->T|T3->T|T5->Zodiac 2->TX->Verizon Treo 700P->Verizon Treo 755p->?