Comments on: Handspring Announces Treo 90

are some of you really that stupid to think that someone new to palm is gonna turn up buying a COLOR pda with a built in keyboard and more storage room? plus im sure the screen will look better, even though it displays less colors...that m130 screen makes me wanna puke, because of the ghosting effect. not to mention the treo is much smaller, much thinner, much lighter than that m130.

whats this talk about a jog dial? does the m130 have a jog dial? NO! so you cant use that as an agrument to buy the M130 over the T90. plus, the treo makes up for the lack of a jog dial in that you can scroll through your apps with the scroll button and select them with the spacebar. how simple is that?

side by side, the t90 is better than the m130, hands down. the only reason someone shouldnt buy the t90 is if you absolutely hate built in keyboards and require the use of grafitti.

...with the digitized screen, users can take advantage of third-party applications like RecoEcho 1.1, for example, that allow you to use on-screen Graffiti in addition to the keyboard.

I'm considering getting one... if they enable SD I/O!

It should be noted that the lack of flash memory is a complete non-issue. Even if the Treo 90 had flash memory it still would not be possible to upgrade to OS 5 as it is written for ARM processors. I wish that HS would release a graffiti model because I would buy one in minute. However, in order to expand the consumer base and provide real alternatives, this is a necessary move. To say that the Treo 180g out sells the 180 and therefore the 90 should have graffiti is very short sighted. The Treo line has not been out long enough to have achieved any real market penetration. To date the majority of people buying the Treo have been Palm users switching from other products. Since they already know graffiti they flock to the 180g. As soon as newbie consumers begin buying this product there is every reason to believe that the key board version will be popular. It is difficult to see consumers new to the Palm world being interested in learning graffiti when a keyboard version is available.

In the end anyone interested in furthering the Palm platform should hope that Handspring succeeds. In my opinion what HS, Sony and Hand Era are doing is great. They provide viable alternatives to Palm prodeucts while furthering the Palm platform. I have no desire to live in a Pocket PC world and applaud HS for these innovative new products. One final thing, if you can't say anything positive or productive, please don't post at all!

First, the color, why 12bit color? The only reason I mention it is that both its competitors (Palm and Sony) are 16bit color which simply doesn't look good for Handspring.

Second, why did they take the jog dial off the Treo 90? Is a jogdial really that expensive to manufacture?

Third, why not name it Visor? Visor has more name recognition than Treo and plus Treo stands for the three functions that the Treo can accomplish and since the Treo 90 isn't a phone...

Intelligence makes a person intelligent.

Um, is it possible that they are calling it a treo because of the form factor?

Passive display used to have narrow viewing angle, diluted colors, and looks significantly inferior when placed next to a TFT display. It was previously used for budget laptop, but it has now been completely replaced by TFT since TFT's price has come down.

Broadcom can produce chips for less than $5, as long as they are ordered in large numbers.

Who *CARES* if you can see the screen through the flip cover, if you can't manipulate your calendar or address book??

Stupid, stupid, stupid.....

1) Goodbye to Graffiti...and good riddance.
2) Yeah hi res would be nice, but the actual enchancement to the applications I use the palm for would be minimal.
3) Ditto for the processor speed. Response time is not an issue for me. Are you solving differential equations with your palm?
4) Nothing running a dragonball processor is 5.0 compatible. So forget upgrades.

Sorry I have to confess that I am a Palm program developer.

I posted the first posting and I don't owned NR70V. I waiting for Dragonball MX1 from Sony. I owned a broken Palm IIIx and working Palm m505.

you have given the most childish reasonings ever.

You are probably a 'novice' user since you do not even know that all current PalmOS PDAs can't be upgraded to OS5.

Like I said - moron!

>> RE: Not Good Enough for Advanced Palm User
Posted by: I.M. Anonymous @ 5/27/2002 11:59:56 PM

>> I am the author of the first posting. You told you that Sony Clie NR70V user is advanced Palm User. To be APU, you must upgraded once your ROM OS atleast one, knows about Hacks and use it, knows how to write in grafitti for sure. Still using old Palm until it dies and then buy a new one. You could be 3 years using your Palm but still you could be novice palm user.

And, btw, when you have 30 years (yeah, that's three-oh) of programming experience like I do, then you can suggest to me what language to use to program. Otherwise, keep your condescending, ignorant suggestions to yourself.

Maybe you are talking about dropping the soft graffitti area? That will come soon enough. YiShow is there for a launcher. WordSmith shipped on version that supported the extra screen space and will work out the bugs to ship a final version. DateBook and several others are close. It will be there by August or so.

HUH???? These are not graphics apps. You turn on 'hi-res assist' and these apps now get smooth, hi-res fonts - NOT '4 pixels per pixel'. Also smooths out ALL UI controls (buttons, chkbox control,etc) - so what the hell are these idiots talking about. The original poster as well as the guy i just quoted, don't know what they are talking about. If you are going to post here - have an inkling about what you are talking about - dont come on here and make up shi*t theories about real, existing hardware/software - we dont need to speculate - WE ALREADY KNOW. honestly people.

You keep diggin yourself deeper you guys:

>> "only hi-res fonts, but not hi-res graphics."

There are no (except a couple of icons) graphics in the built in apps (and we aere talking about built in apps in this thread) - just fonts and UI controls, and since Sony does indeed allow these to work in hi-res - you guys are wrong. Period.

Second, as for the comment "Creating a hi-res program that fully takes advantage of the API will only slow the program down (Qubix 320x320 version)" - Sony has a special processor just for graphics - so its NOT a situation of '4 x pixels = 4 x slower'. Besides, with the new NR70 - the only 66mhz Palm device - it is faster in any resolution. And what does Qubix habe to do with the built in apps? Remember that the whole argument that initiated this thread was that sony didnt have hi-res for built in apps - which i successfuly refuted, causing you to change arguments. lame.

Again - know what yr talking about before you spew garbage on a msg board. BTW - i am usually putting down lame Sony fanatics on this site - but now you guys are making me sound like one:)

Again - Huh???? Whether or not something uses the hi-res API (which is about graphics (ei: 'Win' API calls vs 'HRWin' calls) has nothing to do with whether the app makes use of hi-res (320x320). Built in palm apps allow hi-res fonts and UI controls, ALL drawn using 320 x 320. The hi-res assist feature allows none HR API apps to take advantage of hi-res (thus its f**king name - 'hi-res assist'). The only gain that could possibly be made by using the hi-res API to re-write some of the built in app code would be to provide hi-res versions of the few custom icons that exist in the built in apps. So, since hi-res is defined as 320 x 320, and since hi-res fonts and hi-res UI controls DEFINITELY do utilize 320 x 320 - then gues what???? Hi-res is supported for built in Palm apps!! If what your inarticulate little mind actually meant when you said 'hi-res' was really 'hi-res+' (or virtual graffiti) then, no Sony has not re-written the apps to take advantage of the extra screen space - BUT nobody in this thread has ever suggested it did. So your statment:

>>absolutlely none of the standard built-in apps support the hi-res screen.

...is completely false. Ask everyone on this site: 320x480 = hi-res AND virtual graffiti = hi-res+

Let me go further - if you mean by 'support' that they have explicitly re-written the application to make use of hi-res, then no, they don't 'support' hi-res - BECAUSE THEY DONT NEED TO. These apps are all text and UI controls - the 'support' comes from hi-res assist.

Ummm.... that's what hi-res does. Makes the apps look nicer. And that is the point.

For all the money one pays for a Sony, they sure don't put much work into the thing beyond the hardware, do they? It's like buying a new porsche and finding out you have to install your own interior.

i like the keyboard...its perfect for editing school papers..i still dont see myself writing a paper on my palm pilot though...it would take me DAYS!

Heh. yes, I have. Only 1 or 2 page essays, not full research papers, but they are papers. :)

>i like the keyboard...its perfect for editing school papers..i still dont see myself writing a paper on my palm pilot though...it would take me DAYS!

True, for major papers you would want to use a laptop or desktop. I found my organizer perfect for taking down notes in the library though, and organizing my work schedule to get the papers done.

www.successwizard.com

[I]Proud user of a Palm i705 Mobile Office and Kyocera 6035 phone[/I]

But, generally slamming those of use who want a keyboard isn't going to get you far. There's an old saying: "You can attract more bees with honey than with vinegar." If you want to convince someone your way is right, you won't get far throwing insults.

Well, I can see how a typo can really change the meaning of things here. It should have really been "No no, I didn't do the orgional post to bash people that like keyboard better than Grafatti area."

Sony NR70 > Sony T615C > Palm 515 > Palm 130 > Treo 90

So..treo 90 is a junk and joke, nothing more.

I will have to go back to the Circuit City and look again at that M130 before I tell anyone to buy one.

Cheers,
Jan

/*
One thing a computer can do that most humans can't is be sealed up in a cardboard box and sit in a warehouse.
*/

But even then I thought Handspring had made a grave mistake by using such a large module design. While Palm had the slick PalmV, Handspring would be stuck with bulky devices (they tried to get around using an external adapter with the Visor Edge, but that's inconvenient).

So I only bought one Springboard because I knew within a year or so I'd want a smaller PDA.

What I don't understand is why didn't Handspring make a CF-compatible slot? They could've still implemented plug and play for their cards, and supported non-plug and play cards too (perhaps even having drivers for CF memory that made it plug and play). Springboard would've lasted a lot longer that way.

Why should HS include SDIO for the 1-2% of the people that it will satisfy, for the ONE expansion option currently available!?

Sorry, I also wish that it supported that card but i agree with a previous poster that by year end most pda's will have bluetooth built in.

M130 - 5.4 oz
Treo 90 - 4 oz (i believe this is the lightest Palm OS device in existence - am i right?)

Well, from a marketing perspective, this is still a correct statement even if the display only outputs 12-bits, because the system definitely SUPPORTS 16-bit mode - it allows programs to assign a 16-bit value per pixel - but that doesn't necessarily mean that the full value ends up in the the screen output. Technically, black & white TVs "SUPPORT" color signals - they take the same input as color TVs, they just throw out the color information. The m130 appears to be doing a similar thing by throwing out some of the color information, because it definitely shows banding & dithering that don't appear on other 16-bit devices.

Sony NR70V specs say:
"TFT color display with back lights 320 x 480 pixels, 65,536 colors"

Handspring Prism specs say:
"Displays 65,536 vibrant colors..."

did u bother to look at the photos, or did u just swallow the blue pill?

Well informed people know it is impossible to transmit the voice over wires and that were it possible to do so, the thing would be of no practical value.
- Editorial in the Boston Post (1865)<---- OPEN MOUTH. INSERT FOOT!

Besides, that's how Jeff Hawkins pronounces it, if you can still get the Treo design-and-development movies from the Handspring site.

Besides, that's how Jeff Hawkins pronounces it, if you can still get the Treo design-and-development movies from the Handspring site.

Besides, that's how Jeff Hawkins pronounces it, if you can still get the Treo design-and-development movies from the Handspring site.

Besides, that's how Jeff Hawkins pronounces it, if you can still get the Treo design-and-development movies from the Handspring site.

Besides, that's how Jeff Hawkins pronounces it, if you can still get the Treo design-and-development movies from the Handspring site.

plaid

Why?

It seems like Sony changes their connectors every month or so, for some inscrutable reason - But they've apparently still got some people buying.

Palm managed to become the head of this pack while changing their connector (Counting - P1000-PPP, PIII-IIIc, V-Vx, m100, 'Universal Connector') FIVE times.

It seems like whenever a PDA Manuf gets strapped for cash, we get to play another round of http://www.tuxedo.org/~esr/jargon/html/entry/connector-conspiracy.html> Connector Conspiracy...

> I have a Visor keyboard, memory module, and mp3 player, and I will not be investing in a Treo.

Sorry to hear that. Open hardware standards your friend. I suggest you base your future buying decisions on that knowledge? I've heard rumors that Handera is working on a color PDA, which might be worth a look.

I /am/ the eggman.

> Why are people still buying Sony products when they have changed their connectors also. Good question, but
> the answer must be that Sony is attracting new product buyers, and they've been in the game for such
> a short period of time no one has had a product long enough to need an upgrade, and therefore, hasn't got
> pissed off yet. Wait until they want to upgrade and find out their accessories are worthless.

As the saying goes, there's one born every minute.

Or it might wind up being that Sony's target market is so into the consume-and-toss culture that the idea of having to buy a new garage when you get a new car is something they expect - Remember that there's lots of people who do the pitch-and-replace method of computer upgrading now, too.

> If, on the other hand, they had used the same connector and included a springboard slot (or at least
> an adaptor) the Treo would be my only choice.
As it is, the Treo is no more of a contender for my
> $$$ than any other PDA out there.

That's the whole point of a propriatary connector/interface. Hence, Palm's unwillingness to licence it's 'Universal Connector' to other PDA manufacteurs. And though Sony's allowed others (But only one other PDA manuf, AFAIK) to copy the Memory Stick interface, you'd better bet they hold all the patents, and nobody will EVER beat them at their own game with it. And when MemoryStickII is ready...

> And, as you say, open hardware standards may be my friend, but with the sd slot on the Treo not being i/o
> capable, they still haven't made the grade on that. And with the Treo's OS not being upgradable, that
> means any "patch" will reside in ram taking up space, and possibly being lost if the unit powers for
> long enough, or a fatal error occurs and I can't sync to get it back right away.

All very valid concerns. Handspring has always been behind the curve on upgradability - this is nothing new, and people have been moaning about the lack of Flash since the first Visors were released.

As far as the SD slot - SD is a VERY cramped form factor. Everybody's promised peripherals in the format, but I really haven't seen too much reach production besides memory and Palm's Bluetooth module. It's possible that manufs' will make SD peripherals that 'overflow' the SD slot, to overcome the size limitations, but for which form factor? Can you imagine something that sticks out an inch and a half on an m125?

> The Treo may make a great little communicator, but a Treo formfactor organizer was a stupid idea.

I've got a funny feeling that Handspring committed themselves to a Bold New Future, then realized that they'd shot themselves in the foot. The 90 is a half-step back, where they can stay in the organizer market without looking like they had a 'OH SH*T!' moment to the market/stockholders.

After Dubinsky shot her mouth off about killing the visor, producing another machine with a springboard on it would be like smearing egg all over their faces. They've figured out that the celphone market isen't ready to support them yet, and this is as far as they're willing to backpedal.

>My wish list is simple. A Visor formfactor upgrade of the prism with a better screen, more ram, faster
> processor, Palm Os on flash, springboard and SD/MCC slot, and I'd buy one today.

I don't think the OS on flash is EVER going to happen - Or the screen - You might want to consider snapping up a few machines on clearance and cobbling them together, though - A Visor Platinum processor board on a Prism might make a really spiffy machine, if you can pull it off. The Visors I've taken apart are very modular, internally. You might even be able to do this without picking up a soldering iron. YMMV, IANDF (Your Mileage May Vary, I Am Not Doctor Frankenpalm) - You do have to like a PDA where they give you the screwdriver to dismantle the thing in the stylus, though.

I /am/ the eggman.

I'm another non-average IM, and I strongly disagree. In fact, I'm considering getting a Treo 90 (after I've seen, played with, and tested software on one myself). Side note: Orb--you said Handera may be working on a color unit. Do you (or anyone else) have any scoop on details/when it'll be out? It'll have to be soon, I'd think, if it's running OS 4.x...

Please note: what follows is my opinion and I'm posting it to illustrate my decisions, not pass judgement on anyone or claim that anything is "the one right device" for everyone. There's no such thing.

Anyway... I'm a long-time Palm user--4 yrs--currently with a Vx, been itching to upgrade for about a year now, but there hasn't been one unit that was a clear "right choice" for me.

I applaud Palm's choice to implement a universal connector, but I don't like the design they chose and the way it's so hard to pull a device free. I also felt I'd be "settling" for SD and limited content/expansion options on a new device from Palm.

Sony: I felt I'd be settling even more with Memory Stick, I don't want to get on a model-of-the-month merry-go-round, I don't like the styli or buttons on the T615, and despite the hi-res, the color has some issues (brownish reds, etc). The NR70 is just too big for me to even consider, much as I like the virtual Graffiti area.

Handspring: the cutting of Springboards ruled out the Edge, the Prism's too big, and since my cell phone is AT&T and I don't want to switch, the other Treo models are out (unless I decide I want a second phone just for Internet--which is financially not an option at the moment).

HandEra: the 330's size and weight might be manageable (contrary to what some have said), the virtual Graffiti area would be good, and the dual expansion would be great for Internet, but it doesn't have color or USB connectivity, and compatible peripherals, while still out there, are starting to disappear from shelves.

The Treo 90 would be the same weight as the Vx (the m500 is the only other one that low), 16 Mb onboard--my Vx is almost full now), has expansion (even if only SD w/o I/O), and costs significantly less than the m515. I don't mind using Graffiti now, but I anticipate being able to enter info faster on the keyboard, and use 3rd party software to still do Graffiti on the screen.

I have a hunch that Handspring will release an SDIO update, and that other programs on SD (alluded to in Pen Computing's review) will be updated or patched. So, it makes sense--to me--for me to upgrade to the Treo 90 now and then wait until there are several OS 5 devices out to choose from before upgrading again.