Comments on: PalmGear Changes the Way it Pays Developers

Kenny West, CEO of PalmGear, has sent an email to all the developers who list applications on his company's site, informing them of a new payment policy. For months, PalmGear has been behind in payments to its partners, the people and companies for whom PalmGear acts as an online reseller. Starting this month, the company will first pay its partners what it owes for applications sold in the current month. Any money left over will go toward past due balances.
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Translation (courtesy of B.S.Fish)

I.M. Anonymous @ 6/7/2002 8:54:40 AM #
Dear Developer:

First off, forget about ever being paid for what we owe you. We don't have the money to pay you even though we sold your software. However, in order to keep things going, we are going to say that we intend to pay you for what is sold going forward.

In essence, this is a bankruptcy and you are a creditor. We wipe the slate clean on our past debt and start anew. If you don't like it, you shouldn't have lent us your money for so long.

By the way, we don't really have any good excuse for the poor financial performance, a fact that should concern you the most. Oh sure, we probably should have spent only our gross profit and reserved your share to pay you what we owed you. However, that wouldn't have allowed us to try all those expensive schemes that didn't work out. We were trying to build an empire here. S*** happens.

You might be wondering what, exactly, will be different going forward to improve things and make sure that you get paid. We are, too.

RE: Translation (courtesy of B.S.Fish)
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/7/2002 9:09:35 AM #
Yep, I think that about sums it up.
RE: Translation (courtesy of B.S.Fish)
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/7/2002 9:10:01 AM #
By the way, I guess you can't really call this a bankruptcy because in a real bankruptcy, we wouldn't be able to preferentially say who will get paid. All creditors would stand in line based on the rule of law.

This way, we can pick our favorites to pay and use it to our advantage. If you decide to leave us, you go to the bottom of the list, never to be paid what we owe.

Of course, you guys could force a real bankruptcy by suing us for what we owe you to prevent us from doing things this way and make all creditors equal.

RE: Translation (courtesy of B.S.Fish)
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/7/2002 9:13:25 AM #
Agreed. Here's one developer who is going to pull all his applications off PalmGear by the end of the week. And this doesn't prevent me from instructing my lawyers to collect the large sums still owing from PalmGear...
RE: Translation (courtesy of B.S.Fish)
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/7/2002 9:33:16 AM #
Isn't this a ground for developer class action suits against palm gear? SOunds like somebody is ripping of developer here.
RE: Translation (courtesy of B.S.Fish)
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/7/2002 9:36:14 AM #
Also, developers might be interested to know that in the event that a bankruptcy does occur, any preferential payments that are deemed to be improper may be recoverable by the bankruptcy trustee up to a year later. They can come after money that you have already received if it is deemed that you were improperly preferentially treated. I'm not sure if this policy of paying current vendors, preferentially, is legal.
RE: Translation (courtesy of B.S.Fish)
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/7/2002 10:18:33 AM #
> Isn't this a ground for developer class action suits against palm gear?

It might be but what would be the point? As it is now, you'll eventually get your money. If you force the company into bankruptcy, you might get some of your money a little bit faster but you certainly won't get all of it.

You'll also kill the company, leaving Handango without competition. Considering the main reason PalmGear is in trouble is lawyer fees from a totally bogus lawsuit from a backer of Handango, I don't think they can be trusted.

This is no choice that is a win for everyone. You can only choose from bad options. I think the least bad option is to wait for PalmGear to pony up the money. Dragging it to court will hurt the entire palm community and not do you much good.

RE: Translation (courtesy of B.S.Fish)
MobileMitch @ 6/7/2002 10:28:17 AM #
While I have sympathy for the sentiment expressed here. If you force bankrupcy, all that probably means is that you force them out of buisness, not that you will get paid.

Force the sale of assets? Used servers are a dime a dozen these days.

On the otherhand, anyone who could run a 100% market share of third party software into the ground deserves to be run out of town even if it does not serve any purpose other than to make us all feel better.

RE: Translation (courtesy of B.S.Fish)
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/7/2002 10:52:21 AM #
So basically we should tolerate bad business practice simply because there are no other competition?

Or maybe noone would be interested in investing new effort to sell Palm software because of THIS corporation.

RE: Translation (courtesy of B.S.Fish)
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/7/2002 11:02:39 AM #
To the developer who is planning to pull his/her apps from PalmGear:

Where will you list them? At the moment, PalmGear is the only service I check. If there's an exodus, I want to know where to follow.

RE: Translation (courtesy of B.S.Fish)
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/7/2002 11:02:41 AM #
A previous poster stated "Considering the main reason PalmGear is in trouble is lawyer fees from a totally bogus lawsuit from a backer of Handango, I don't think they[Handango] can be trusted."

Are you sure Handango's lawsuit was "totally bogus". I am not sure since the only person who told me it was bogus was Kenny West himself. Kenny's seemingly illegal actions regarding payments are making me wonder if perhaps Handango did in fact have somthing to sue about.

I think PalmGear is dangerously close to starting another legal action against them. Which means they may start keeping our money again to pay legal fees.

RE: Translation (courtesy of B.S.Fish)
ardiri @ 6/7/2002 11:03:07 AM #
it has been discussed quite a bit within the developer community - but, one of the most interesting was when a bunch of developers like myself discussed setting up a palm software site. we wouldn't have these problems with real time delivery of software, we would know what the users would want to see - and, we'd be able to tailor it to the developers needs..

getting a merchant account isn't too hard these days - and, running costs surely should not be 20%-25% of the money that is received.. hosting servers doesn't cost that much - it may even be possible to offer bandwidth based on how much you sell.. many business options here.. many many many moons ago i wrote a real time fullfilment engine for PGHQ - but, it was never implemented.. it was finished, but, never integrated into their website - heck, they still run off yahoo.

maybe the bankruptcy of one, and, the emergence of another is feasible? offering 10% fee's would really push the limit on people like Handango and PGHQ - many developers are currently seeking in-house solutions such as e-sellerate, kagi etc. the only problem there is exposure - but, do you really get exposure on a site like Handango or PGHQ these days?

// az

RE: Translation (courtesy of B.S.Fish)
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/7/2002 11:06:32 AM #
What incentive does PalmGear have to actually pay what they owe to vendors that are on the bottom of the priority list i.e. the ones who have pulled their software? For that matter, what incentive do they have to pay the ones who are continuing to sell through PalmGear? Pull your software and you go to the bottom of the list. Forcing a reorganization bankruptcy would allow the company to keep rolling and level the field among creditors.
RE: Translation (courtesy of B.S.Fish)
jofallon @ 6/7/2002 11:17:39 AM #
As somebody who's bought a lot of Palm software (a lot from Palmgear, and some from Handango), I have an interest in making sure my money gets to the people who wrote the software I want.

Yes, I agree I like the Palmgear site much better than Handango's. It's much easier to find good stuff on Palmgear. I write software for a living and get paid for it. I don't expect people who write Palm software to work for free. If the developer doesn't get paid by Palmgear, they will find a distributor who will pay them or stop writing software. Handango may not have the best site, but if they actually pay the developers what they're owed in a somewhat timely basis....

At some point, Palmgear's plan is not just bad business practices. If I take somebody's money under contract to deliver a percentage of it to the developer, and don't, I'm breaching my contract. The developer has a variety of remedies. So do I. If I want to be able to get new, improved Palm software, I'll go to Handango, or directly to the developer's site.

RE: Translation (courtesy of B.S.Fish)
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/7/2002 11:53:52 AM #
As a developer, I can verify that if a customer wants a developer to actually receive the money they pay for their software, they should definitely go to the developer's website to purchase it. Although a developer may sell software through various websites, the purchase method(s) listed on his website will be his preferred method of payment and will be the method which will result in his being paid in a timely manner.
RE: Translation (courtesy of B.S.Fish)
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/7/2002 12:19:01 PM #
I think Mr. Ardiri's idea is a reasonable one. As a user, not a developer, I am frustrated to hear that the individuals doing the hard work are being cheated out of money. I didn't realize that PalmGear practiced business this way. Running a website/server can't really be that hard. Everything is automated, so their profit margin must be relatively high. If developers do rally to create a website, I hope they will remember all the users, now registered at PalmGear with their paid software, when establishing this. One of my biggest concerns would be that I, and other registered users, would get lost in the transition to another major software distributor if PalmGear went under. Getting updates to software could become almost impossible... or certainly quite a headache.
RE: Translation (courtesy of B.S.Fish)
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/7/2002 12:26:09 PM #
You have nothing to be worried about mr User.

Every developer keeps records of his sales from Palmgear so you will not be forgotten. =)

RE: Translation (courtesy of B.S.Fish)
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/7/2002 12:29:07 PM #
Yes, people, let's ignore the facts presented here and help kill off PalmGear HQ. Then well only have Handango to worry about....

Oh yes, this SHOULD really help further the Palm OS cause....

While we're at it, why don't we just use the other barrel to blow our heads off and give up in defeat to M$ all together, since Handango sells to both platforms already....

What I don't understand about all you "programmers" is you entered into a verbal or written "agreement" with PGHQ - NOT a "written contract".

Basically you were letting PGHQ advertise your software so Palm OS users could go to a nicely laid out, easily searched web site offering Palm OS software in exchange that you would be paid for software sold.

While I completely understand about writing software and expecting to get paid for your (my) work, YOU tell ME (and everyone else here) where in the WWW (and world) you're going to get practically free advertisement to MILLIONS (and possibly Billions) of customers all in ONE place? Sure, there is Handango, but intrinsically people are going to gyrate toward instead of when looking for "Palm" OS based software...

Most people looking for "Palm" software would probably type "Palm Software" in a search engine (google in this case) and who pops ups first in the list before Handango??? Bingo! PalmGear! Ok, what does this prove - nothing other than people are (usually) automatically going to associate with Palm OS software than with Handango?

Besides - "Handango"? That doesn't sound like it has ANYTHING to do with Palm OS software! On the other hand, "PalmGear" - Hmmm, I wonder what they have on their site.... Hmmm, "Palm" and "Gear”.... Hmmm, maybe "gear" for the "Palm"? (Duh!)

Lastly, as a programmer myself, and having used many, many other Palm OS software programs, we programmers could make everything EXTREMELY easy for ourselves by simply making our software SHAREWARE or NAGWARE in that after an allotted time period - the usual 15 or 30 days the software is non-functional and PROMPTS the user to CONTACT US - Not PalmGear, Not Handango, NOT etc. in order to BUY the program and REGISTER it THROUGH US!

Then, this way we don't have to complain about not being paid by some "middle man" when they get into financial dire straights when being sued by their economic rivals.

What REALLY amazes me is all the STINK everyone here is raising about what PalmGear is NOT doing when the main MONEY and LEGAL problems it had were caused by Handango frivolous lawsuit!

YOU should be PISSED at Handango for forcing PalmGear to spend essentially YOUR money in order to defend itself and to keep itself afloat in order to continue to advertise YOUR programs. Heck, ALL programmers who think PalmGear is "screwing" you out of your money should sign a petition to file a lawsuit against Handango for damages, and YOUR PAIN and SUFFERING due to not being paid while PalmGear had to defend itself from Handango frivolous lawsuit!

Why doesn't everyone rally behind PalmGear like everyone did with Pimlico? Doesn't anyone else "see" how shady actions, and frivolous lawsuits by companies such as Handango and iambic - the DIRECT competitors of PalmGear and Pimlico just to "steal" their business away???

Food for thought....

I for one am Happy with PalmGear and I HOPE and PRAY they stay around (and in business) for a very LONG LONG time! Searching for Palm OS software on their site is SO MUCH easier than any other PALM OS site.

I mean, is there really any other site out there so well know like PalmGear, that is as easy at it is to search for Palm OS programs? If so, Please enlighten others and me here! Please! (Without being sarcastic or hurtful). Thanks...

RE: Translation (courtesy of B.S.Fish)
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/7/2002 12:44:54 PM #
It is a shame PalmGear had to spend OUR cut to defend itself from the stupid evil lawsuit forced by Handango, but that doesn't mean that PalmGear is doing itself any favors by implementing a policy that makes people want to sue them AGAIN.

While the prompt payment of "current months sales" might actually be the step in the right direction, a coercive preferencial payment schedule of the remainder owed is clearly a bad idea. (Not to mention possibly an illegal one.)

Aaron, if there is someone out there who can do what you suggest -- offer 10-15% and maintain a well-laid-out site receiving the kinds of traffic that PalmGear gets, now would be a good time to give it a go. I think a lot of developers would help spread the word.

Handango is not the correct alternative, but if PalmGear doesn't recover from their debt soon, and keeps implementing bad policies (like their recent percentage increase, the loss of developer website links, late payments, sluggish site performance, and now this "preferred payment plan"), I feel someone else SHOULD swoop in and take the torch away from them.

RE: Translation (courtesy of B.S.Fish)
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/7/2002 4:29:51 PM #
Does anyone have any truly independent information about this "lawsuit" (ie: no information from PalmGear, who just might be biased in this matter).

No smoke without fire... as the saying goes...

RE: Translation (courtesy of B.S.Fish)
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/7/2002 8:47:47 PM #
What I don't understand about all you "programmers" is you entered into a verbal or written "agreement" with PGHQ - NOT a "written contract".
This is incorrect. PalmGear has a written aggreement (albiet web-based) which is "signed" by each developer. I know because I signed one.

-Brett Blatchley

RE: Translation (courtesy of B.S.Fish)
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/7/2002 8:50:55 PM #
Oops, what I meant to write was that the "written aggreement" is, in fact, an enforcable business contract.


PalmGear loosing the respect of developers

I.M. Anonymous @ 6/7/2002 11:10:22 AM #
I really liked PalmGear in the past. In fact when Handango started PalmGear had us all convinced that Handango was the big bad wolf and that PalmGear was the white knight ready to stand up and defend the developers. They were bragging about how Handango was forcing all developers to sign contacts and PalmGear was not. Now I wish I had a contract with PalmGear because they have not honored our original agreement.

PalmGear's site still promises "Payments are made by check to partners once a month between the 15th and 30th for the prior calendar months registrations/sales". They should add "unless we think of something else we would rather do with your money."

They are 4 months behind on my payments. They almost put me out of business because they are holding 1/3 of my companies annual income. I emailed them on a regular basis requesting my funds and was always told that PalmGear was "aggressively" seeking a solution. This is their solution. It's terrible. How about paying the money you owe in the order that you owe it. Not to mention appologizing for using money that did not belong to them. They had absolutly no right to use any more than the original agreed to 20% that they were alloted. The other money belongs to the developers they claimed to respect so much.

PalmGear used to stand by it's developers now they are only willing to stand by you if you don't do business with Handango, you only get priority to collect you overdue fees if you promiss to not do business with anyone else. This seems illegal, they are forcing a monopoly by holding our owed payments. It is tempting to allow them exclusive rights as they do have a bulk of the marked today. In fact I might have been willing to allow them exclusive rights however the problem is that not only has PalmGear fallen behind on their payments but they are also behind on building a honest business and a decent site. Here are the reasons I do business with Handango in addition to PalmGear in case you were considering folding under PalmGear's pressure and allowing them exclusive rights to your software.
1) Handango signed a contract with me and has honored it.
2) Handango has several sites in foreign languages making there site the best for non US customers.
3) Handango's search engine actually finds what you are looking for. Try a few searches on both sites and you will see how much better handango's technology is.
4) Palm has switched to Handango.
5) Handango was involved in the same lawsuit however they didn't pay their lawers with my money.

I agree with a previous posted message that what PalmGear is doing seems illegal but I am not a lawyer. If anyone is a lawyer and knows if a class action suite can be brought on PalmGear I would be very interested.

I am strongly considering pulling my sofware from PalmGear's site. But first I have to decide if I can afford the loss of the funds they owe me since I am now convince that if you remove your software they will never pay the money they owe.

RE: PalmGear loosing the respect of developers
ChiefPilot @ 6/7/2002 11:29:12 AM #
Here's a thought (and that's all it is - I haven't put too much analysis into it) :

Leave your application on PGHQ, but don't allow customers to download it directly. When a customer purchases the software and you get the notification, follow up with a brief message to the effect that you are sorry, but because of PalmGear's failure to pay you will not be able to accept the order from PalmGear. You will be happy to process any order from Handango/eSellerate/etc. ASAP.

This would do the following :
1) It will keep you on the "pay quicker" list at PGHQ, if such a thing even exists.
2) It will get the customers (the ones Kenny really cares about) complaining to PGHQ.
3) It will help transition your revenue stream to a more reliable partner.

Thoughts, comments, dissenting opinions?

Forget Class Action
mikemusick @ 6/7/2002 12:04:43 PM #
It is rarely in an aggrieved party's interest to certify a class, especially when there are no deep pockets. The most frequent outcome is that the lawyers get their "standard and customary fees" out of the settlement, leaving the crumbs (if any!) for those who were actually damaged. You stand getting a better recovery with a bankruptcy.

The handwriting was on the wall when Palm jumped to Handango. There had to be a reason; something this public is not done on a whim, especially when one of your loudest marketing drums is "thousands of applications".

Anyway, think twice about bolting from PGHQ in a blind hope that there will be greener pastures someday. There are two choices, neither good. And both have brand recognition. Anything new will have to build an identity, and it will be months - even years - before such a venture could become a "household name" with the Palm OS public, especially in the shadow of a juggernaut (Handango) officially supported by the largest supplier in the niche (Palm).

In a way, I count my blessings that my little corner of the Palm world was too "vertical market" to make much use of the retail sites. I hope you guys can work this out, because considering the (lack of) alternatives, punishing PGQH is likely to backfire.

RE: PalmGear loosing the respect of developers
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/7/2002 12:28:22 PM #
I am not so sure that PalmGear is the enemy yet.

When a company is sued, they get to use whatever liquid cash it has. If there is no money left, they file chapter 11 or bankruptcy.

So, which do you prefer? Palmgear to exist and slowly make up for past payments or outright bankruptcy? What they did is legal as far as I know. Otherwise, tons of other companies should be sued to death for not first paying their rebates, their debtors, etc. etc. before they use their company's money... (so they use their own employee's pocket money to pay for lawsuits?). What are you asking for? It is probably legal for all involved to sue them for past due balances too... but don't be too trigger happy. Probably you will get a bankrupt company and nothing in return except your lawyer's fees.

Anyway, I still feel very strongly against Handango. I am still convinced Palmgear is a victim of Handango, and that Palmgear is probably run by an inexperience person trying his best. Perhaps someone else can enlighten me to the real evil he has done, or if he has more experience than I thought.

RE: PalmGear loosing the respect of developers
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/7/2002 12:47:04 PM #
I've always downloaded my software from Palmgear...when it was available on the site...and will keep doing so b/c it's a great site!
RE: PalmGear loosing the respect of developers
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/7/2002 4:29:56 PM #
Well, then, you're an idiot because to do so could run good developers out of the business if they continue not to get paid--and whatever this release says, it offers precious little guarantee that developers are going to see all their money.
RE: PalmGear loosing the respect of developers
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/7/2002 4:49:03 PM #
Developers may not like Handango and their 30% commission (yes, 30% of the price you pay goes to Handango simply for listing the product), but at least they honor their agreements and pay developers.

Independent developers made the Palm operating system the market leader that it is today... some of these developers are willing and able to distribute their products for free... many of the better, more advanced products are from developers who invest significant amounts of time and money to deliver quality applications... surely they deserve to be rewarded for their efforts?

I think that PalmGear should have handled this announcement better... it really sounds as though some developers (the bigger ones) got a good deal at the expense of small developers. I would be sorry to see PalmGear disappear from the internet (thus giving more strength to Handango), but what do you expect if they don't pay people when they've sold their software?!

RE: PalmGear loosing the respect of developers
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/8/2002 5:44:22 PM #
Well, a website I used to frequent quite often has finally re-launched. They have a whole new layout, and have begun a software repository engine. From what I understand, listing your software is completely free! It's a nice site, which should pick up when word of mouth spreads.

A nice cause for developers.


RE: PalmGear loosing the respect of developers
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/9/2002 12:51:33 PM #
The error in this title is kind of funny... at least if you know that the verb "to loose" really means to unleash and has nothing to do with "to lose"... don't believe me? Check a dictionary! I know, I know, English is not everyone's first language here, but what's sad is how many native English speakers are making mistakes like this...

Details on the Lawsuit

I.M. Anonymous @ 6/7/2002 11:35:00 AM #
There's been some discussion on the lawsuit PalmGear was involved in. I don't know anything about it but here's a description I found of it online.

There is something that "stinks" with regards to the recent lawsuit between Fort Worth-based Q Ventures LP and PalmGear.

In a "nutshell" these two going concerns entered into a "tentative" discussion about securing venture capital for Palmgear. It was alleged by Q-Ventures LP. that Palmgear committed themselves to selling 80 percent share of the company in exchange for financing. Before negotiations ever had a chance to get off the ground Q-Ventures LP announced in a "memo" to PalmGear that the "deal was off". Shortly after they filed the lawsuit.

After two and a half years of litigation the jury in the case unanimously voted that no "contract" had been entered into by either party. Further it was determined had there been any serious discussion on the subject it was in fact Q Ventures who terminated negotiations with its memo stating the deal was off.

Now I present you with an interesting footnote to this story. Randy Eisenman, director of venture capital investments at Q-Ventures LP is also a founder of PalmGear’s rival, Handango Inc.

Like I said, I know nothing about this. The description above was written by Jared Press of
RE: Details on the Lawsuit
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/7/2002 11:44:18 AM #
Ok.. so the jury decided in favor of Palmgear?!

I dont know how things works in the US, but does not the losing side have to pay all the legal fees of winning side?

Thats how it works where I live anyways.

And if that is the case, if it didnt go to pay the lawyers.. where did all my money go???

Anyone with knowledge of how the US legal system works??

RE: Details on the Lawsuit
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/7/2002 11:44:41 AM #
A quote from an article in June's Business 2.0 attributed to Thomas Reardon (formally from Microsoft): "The presumption at Microsoft is that all you have to do is wound the opponent, and they will bleed to death".

Somebody has been taking lessons.

RE: Details on the Lawsuit
madhatter @ 6/7/2002 12:06:58 PM #
"I dont know how things works in the US, but does not the losing side have to pay all the legal fees of winning side?"

No unfortunately that is not the case. Anyone can sue anyone without having any risk here in the U.S. I wish the losers would have to pay the legal costs of the winners, as it would make people think twice about sueing a company just to get rich quick. That won't happen as long as the plaintiff bar association exists.

A Palm in hand is worth two in your pocket.

RE: Details on the Lawsuit
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/7/2002 12:26:30 PM #
To address a few of the posts here I will copy and past and put the text being replied to so it is prefaced by "RE:" and the text being replied to inside quote marks. My comments will be preceded by "PG:" and will be enclosed inside brackets ([ & ]).. Just to keep clear..


Kenny West

"After two and a half years of litigation the jury in the case unanimously voted that no "contract" had been entered into by either party. Further it was determined had there been any serious discussion on the subject it was in fact Q Ventures who terminated negotiations with its memo stating the deal was off.

Now I present you with an interesting footnote to this story. Randy Eisenman, director of venture capital investments at Q-Ventures LP is also a founder of PalmGear’s rival, Handango Inc."

[and the same group (Q) bought out and launched as their own site within (if memory serves) less than 60 days AFTER they filed suit against us...]

and also in reply to:

""I dont know how things works in the US, but does not the losing side have to pay all the legal fees of winning side?"

No unfortunately that is not the case. Anyone can sue anyone without having any risk here in the U.S. I wish the losers would have to pay the legal costs of the winners, as it would make people think twice about sueing a company just to get rich quick. That won't happen as long as the plaintiff bar association exists."

[the last text quoted above sums it up... While no way to go back in time I doubt it would have been filed had they been at risk for our legal fees which BTW were WELL just under $1,500,000]

"5) Handango was involved in the same lawsuit however they didn't pay their lawers with my money."

[Yes and no... They did pay out of the funds they had invested in them to create the site, etc. The difference being is that the suit had multiple effects, a few of which are:

A. "hobbled" us by making so that it was impossible to even seek outside funding or even bank financing..

B. caused the financing we were able to get as an example for hardware for the site to have the interest rates much, MUCH higher than had the suit not been filed.

There are of course other items...]

"but because of PalmGear's failure to pay you will not be able to accept the order from PalmGear. You will be happy to process any order from Handango/eSellerate/etc. ASAP.

This would do the following :
1) It will keep you on the "pay quicker" list at PGHQ, if such a thing even exists.
2) It will get the customers (the ones Kenny really cares about) complaining to PGHQ.
3) It will help transition your revenue stream to a more reliable partner."

[Yes, you could do this though who will it really help? As was pointed out by another poster here... If we ( went away then what? While I wish I could give you all a guarantee that all the issues/AP/etc. would be resolved on or before X day and month I cannot do that though if we did go away (as was pointed out by another reply) you can be virtually guaranteed that after the legal fees, splits, etc., etc. there would be little if anything left...]

"Are you sure Handango's lawsuit was "totally bogus". I am not sure since the only person who told me it was bogus was Kenny West himself. Kenny's seemingly illegal actions regarding payments are making me wonder if perhaps Handango did in fact have somthing to sue about. "

[I am certainly not going to call it bogus as that term may get us into further problems with them... With that said I am not the only one who felt it was unfounded! The filing was such that they did not have to prove "beyond a reasonalbe doubt" our guilt. It was of the type where they only had to convince the majority of the jurors by "preponderance of evidence". In other words at or more than 50% beleived their story against us. In spite of that not only did the jury find in our favor they were UNANIMOUS in their decision on ALL counts they charged us with! AND... while they were deliberating they sent a question out to us the plaintiffs and the judge asking if they were limited to the damages they were charged with using for their decisions. Once the jury came back with their decision we asked the jury what they meant by that question (it is not allowed to ask them prior to deliberatin being completed I was told). They replied that they felt so strongly in our favor that they wanted to know if they could asses damages against the plaintiff (Q) for (if memory serves as I do not recall the exact number though this is close) $600,000 PLUS legal fees! Alas due to the suit not being filed by us it could only be done if we had filed a counter suit.. BUT... we were told that if we did that while we would have a good chance of winning it would in all reality take 2 to 3 years to go to trial and that if we won that after appeals, etc. it would be another 2 to 3 years before we ever saw any money.... And that the legal fees would be between $750k and up...]

PG: In closing (this is not in reply to any specific text, etc. here) we are committed to all of you and the Palm OS market. We like many others feel that the best market is a healthy one with more than one site like ours... If any of you wish to discuss feel free to email me directly and I will personally reply. I wish I could keep up with all the replies, etc. here though due to time restraints cannot.

RE: Details on the Lawsuit
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/7/2002 4:26:13 PM #

Please spend more time managing your business and less time preaching to the Palm OS community, especially the developers whose products you have sold and then used the money to pay for your own salary and poor business decisions.

I wish there were several software sites around selling Palm software and that Handango didn't have a near monopoly. But, please, don't expect developers to support your poor business decisions out of sympathy!

RE: Details on the Lawsuit
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/7/2002 6:47:17 PM #

In the past, I agreed with PG's situation that the litigations can hamper your funding capability. Now everything is cleared out (I guess long time ago), why don't you act like a true business man, create a strategic plan to raise your funding like every start up company does. Get the cash reserve and clear all your debt first and try to rebuild your reputation. I will restore my faith on PG without any doubt. Any excuse now is excess.

Please don't streotype Handango as a monopoly animal. Our company sells software through PG, Handango, and our own site via Kagi as on transaction house. Years of records prove that, 15% from Handango, 7% from PalmGear, rest of 78% came from Kagi.

If you are a developer, listen to this number. Or you may want to try yourself out.

RE: Details on the Lawsuit
PDA Guy @ 6/8/2002 3:12:34 AM #
Um... help me out here...

PGHQ can counter sue and get back (VERY GOOD CHANCE, if what you say is correct) 1.5 Million. You can include as a part of your counter suit, the legal fees for the counter suit (the 700K you're talking about).

Uh.... Why WOULDN'T you do this? Sure, it takes 2-3 years, but we're talking about the end result of 2 MILLION DOLLARS payment.

Somebody help me out here, if I've missed something.

How much money are we talking about?

I.M. Anonymous @ 6/7/2002 11:44:30 AM #
Just curious, I never really thought of selling palm software as a means of making a living.

What would be the ball park amount of a average program per month?

I've written a few games and apps, but I've either freewared them or just given them to friends. I figured it wouldn't be worth the time to handle the registration and business end.

RE: How much money are we talking about?
Fammy @ 6/7/2002 12:29:32 PM #
It would really depend on how popular your program was. From skimming over the comments, it sounds like you get 80% of the price. If you have program list at $10, you'd get $8 per sale. It'd take 125 to make $1000.

Economic comes into it of course.


RE: How much money are we talking about?
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/7/2002 1:26:49 PM #
a couple of the local small dev shops that i know are owed 2k+.. they have since switched to handago. it's just not a way to keep business. They say the "loyal" developers, well those loyal developers weren't relying on that extra income i guess.

Kenny Screwed Up, We All Pay

I.M. Anonymous @ 6/7/2002 1:27:47 PM #
Plain and simple, Kenny made some very bad business decisions and he is now trying to dig out from the hole he dug. Whether he'll succeed is anyone's guess.

What might be the best thing for all concerned would be for him to sell the business now while it still has some value, however diminished. The continued existence of PalmGear would give the developers a chance to recover some income and a new management team would have a better chance of avoiding a lawsuit.

If I had the cash I'd be making an offer right now.

RE: Kenny Screwed Up, We All Pay
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/7/2002 1:42:06 PM #
Oh yes - If I were Kenny, I would have **** all those "loyal" Palm enthusiasts who have been coming to PalmGear for years, roll over and play dead.

Better yet, Kenny could have just filed for bankruptcy and kept all the money - what was it - almost $1.5 Million?

Oh Yes, Kenny, You are such a BAD man - oh, how you remind me of Bill Gates......

Death to heathens!

RE: Kenny Screwed Up, We All Pay
madhatter @ 6/7/2002 2:49:59 PM #
"What might be the best thing for all concerned would be for him to sell the business now while it still has some value, however diminished. "

I cannot see your solution as being a wise business decision.

Palmgear is attempting to fix a problem. It would be easy for Palmgear to file bankrupcy and "re-organize", which would give the developers 10 cents on every dollar owed. Instead Palmgear has made a public commitment that it intends to pay back the fees it owes over time, given a method for doing so, and now a bunch of anonymous people want to tell the man to sell his company because they can do a better job.

Sure you can... until you get a suit that costs 1.5 million to get out of.. then let's see how you run your business...

To all the anonymous developers.. how about disclosing your name and product.. I, for one, would like to stop paying for it. I have purchased over 200 software titles over the years.... I have enough Internet savvy to find the hacks, cracks and pirate software, but choose instead to pay for it, and support the Palm community. Lots of early developers promised free upgrades, but are now charging for it instead. I did not sue you for breach of contract, or suggest to you that you sell your company to someone who can run it better. Instead I paid for the upgrades.

I also choose to buy from Palmgear. They have been responsive to the needs of the customer and I believe before the suit, they were responsive to the needs of the developers as well. ( At least I did not see any mention of problems on PIC before the litigation started.).. so now I see a bunch of developers who ( with a few exceptions) refuse to state their names or what products they write want to bash a company after they announce that they intend to repay them just because they don't think that the order in which the repayment is being made is fair.

I would rather not buy software from you and will remove it from my Palm immediately.


A Palm in hand is worth two in your pocket.

Handango Screwed Kenny, We All Pay
Palm_Otaku @ 6/7/2002 3:03:57 PM #
Plain and simple, Kenny made some very bad business decisions and he is now trying to dig out from the hole he dug.

Come ON Rachel! The "plain and simple" is that Randy Eisenman & Co. (Handango) deliberately set out to crush PGHQ. That is at the root of the current problems, and in a perfect world, Handango would have been severely penalized for their unethical business tactics.

IMNSHO, the Palm Community owes a HUGE debt of gratitude to Kenny / PGHQ and I hope that those of us who care for the platform will band together and help PGHQ to thrive (not just survive)!

--- Dan

RE: Kenny Screwed Up, We All Pay
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/7/2002 4:34:04 PM #
Dear Madhatter,

How are you going to stop paying for a product that you have already purchased?!

Imagine that your current employer owed you several months wages and then announced that they would only pay "future" salary (ie: one day they'd get around to paying you the salary that was owed, but only after they'd paid their own salary). Sounds like backmail to make you stay around, no?

You may think that all software should be freeware (that would be great), but how do you feel about the situation where you PAY for software but some intermediary then keeps the money and doesn't pass it on to the developer... sorry, but it doesn't sound like a great way to keep developers interested in working on new software for us users!

RE: Kenny Screwed Up, We All Pay
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/7/2002 4:54:46 PM #
Please tell me why "the Palm Community owes a HUGE debt of gratitude to Kenny / PGHQ" ?

They've sold other people's products and then kept the money for themselves. Sounds more like Kenny / PGHQ owe a HUGE debt of gratitude to developers, no?!

RE: Kenny Screwed Up, We All Pay
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/7/2002 5:15:27 PM #
Madhatter, you have a good point. What about unethical developers!?!? As a Mac user I have purchased over a dozen pieces of software that stopped receiving support or upgrades, while Windows users continually benefitted. BackupBuddyNG is a perfect example of this. Took my money and then gave all the goodies to Windows users. Personally, I vote with my wallet. That's why Blue Nomad will not get another penny from me. There are other developers who do this, too. Though no express written contract is made (just like developers with PGHQ!!!), I think that if you claim to support a software platform and then ignore them for years without improving their software, you're a thoughtless jerk! And here's the key... it's all about money! Blue Nomad provides very little Mac support because it's not profitable. They don't even intend to provide support. Oh, they'll say they intend to if you email them about it. But, those same emails have been coming for 3 years now and nada! At least PGHQ is trying to make things right...
RE: Kenny Screwed Up, We All Pay
madhatter @ 6/7/2002 5:24:16 PM #
"How are you going to stop paying for a product that you have already purchased?!"

In response to your comment, developers usually make more then one program.. if they are to remain in business. I intend not to buy any future products from them.

I don't know how you would think I feel software should be free.. I have paid for 200 software programs. What I said was the developer promised free upgrades.. and then changed that policy later. You the developer made an agreement when I purchased the software, and now you unilaterally changed your policy.

My entire point in this is YES the developer should be paid for his work.. but when Palmgear makes a public statement saying they will be making payments, then a certain segment of the development community wants to come out and bash the CEO for doing so... anonymously!

If you feel the need to bash the CEO for attempting to make things right, then sign the name of your company and lets see if the Palm Community agrees with your views. I personally will not purchase any additional titles you may develop. I will show you how I feel with my credit card!

A Palm in hand is worth two in your pocket.

RE: Kenny Screwed Up, We All Pay
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/7/2002 7:00:12 PM #
PGHQ took money which should have been escrowed for the developers and used it for other things. Yes, it wasn't Kenny's fault that Handago tried to screw him, but that's they way the game is played.

I ran my own business for several years. You *do not* screw over your suppliers, especially those your entire business model is built upon. That's right up there with "Cash Flow is King" in the rules of small business.

Otherwise, I fear PGHQ's victory in the courts will prove to be a very Pyrrhic one.

RE: Kenny Screwed Up, We All Pay
I.M. Anonymous @ 8/5/2002 3:49:21 AM #
Well it either gets fixed soon, PalmGear goes out of business or some of us developers go out of business.

I'm continuing to support Kenny and Palmgear.

htomlinson @ 6/7/2002 2:16:34 PM #
I for one will publicly stand by Kenny with this decision. (I've seen a few angry comments from developers remaining anonymous, but that's not the way I do things).

If it weren't for the kind of help Kenny gave us when we were starting, and the sales generated through PalmGear as a result, then Astraware wouldn't be here as it is now. That counts for a lot with me, and my memory isn't so short.

I think Kenny has made the right decision here. If anything, it gives me *more* confidence to promote software through PalmGear - because I know that I'll see an immediate return on any improved sales, instead of a delayed one.

Plus, by supporting PalmGear with more sales and products now, they'll do better on catching up with the outstanding payments. And sorry, but I'm ashamed of those who immediately jump to the legal threats as the best solution. Working with them to find acceptable middle ground has been my method all along.

PalmGear is by far the best site for us for downloads which aren't being actively pushed on the front page(which is 99.9x% of all products, remember.)
Guys, this is the time to support PalmGear, and I for one will not be threatening to withdraw my products.

Howard Tomlinson, CEO, Astraware.

RE: I'm continuing to support Kenny and Palmgear.
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/7/2002 2:48:20 PM #
Kenny writes memo:
Note to department handing back payments to developers, put Astraware at the top of the list for payment.
RE: I'm continuing to support Kenny and Palmgear.
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/7/2002 2:49:47 PM #
Ker-ching! (The sound of Astraware moving to the top of the PalmGear vendor preferred-payee list)
RE: I'm continuing to support Kenny and Palmgear.
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/7/2002 2:53:15 PM #
Great minds think alike
RE: I'm continuing to support Kenny and Palmgear.
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/7/2002 3:17:38 PM #
I too support PG. If PG wasn't around then you would have ahhhhh... lets see.... OH I GOT Handago shares in all the PDA market. It is great to have a supplier that yeilds only to Palm OS. So there is a struggle going on $ wise, the money will come. Time will tell!
RE: I'm continuing to support Kenny and Palmgear.
htomlinson @ 6/7/2002 4:24:32 PM #
(sigh) Thought I'd made it clear above - obviously not clear enough... I've *already* worked out an acceptable plan with PalmGear, way ahead of this latest news. I suspect most developers whose businesses are really affected will have done similar way before now too.

I'm stating my position on the subject, showing some backbone, and supporting a group without whom there wouldn't *be* the kind of Palm software market there is now.


RE: I'm continuing to support Kenny and Palmgear.
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/7/2002 4:34:58 PM #
I agree whole-heartedly with Howard Tomlinson, CEO, Astraware.

If it weren’t for PalmGear, we Palm "enthusiasts" wouldn't have such a Great place to find all our Palm OS software needs.

Be thankful that PalmGear was able to survive that frivolous lawsuit by Handango and that we all still have a place to go to that caters exclusively to the Palm OS community.

I've been trafficking PalmGear since I got my first Palm Pilot (512 kb) back in 1998 and practically visit it daily now just to see what "new" software is available for the Palm.

Where else could one go to find all the Great software for the Palm OS platform all bundled together in one, consistent, well-organized site?

In fact, PalmGear is such a great site that its format has been copied by several other sites - "PocketGear" anyone?

All in all, we should be thankful we have more than one place to purchase Palm OS software, and should continue to purchase all those apps we truly find useful to us. Boycotting or threatening Class Action lawsuits is not going to help either our Palm OS cause or the developers who have been and will continue to sell their applications through PalmGear.

We all need to rally behind PalmGear and Kenny and help support the Palm OS community and its developers. If we don't, we all might just end up running Winblows on all the PDA's we own in the future! Ugh! :( Yeah... that's what I want! (Sic!)

- PalmZealot

RE: I'm continuing to support Kenny and Palmgear.
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/7/2002 4:40:12 PM #
Yes, great... you, Astraware (a BIG developer) worked out preferential terms with PalmGear in advance of the announcement and then screwed all the small developers... aren't you clever?
RE: I'm continuing to support Kenny and Palmgear.
htomlinson @ 6/7/2002 4:56:58 PM #
I think that's quite an unfair thing to suggest. By working out a way to get my payments over a reasonable without demanding them all at once, I'd suggest that I'm actually giving PG a chance to pay smaller developers. What would happen if I did just demand the outstanding amounts, do you think ?

RE: I'm continuing to support Kenny and Palmgear.
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/7/2002 5:03:16 PM #
"What would happen if I did just demand the outstanding amounts, do you think ?"

You would get a small percentage of what is owed to you, just like everyone else.

However, by cleverly using your size and popular product range to bargain with PalmGear, you get to put yourselves at the front of the queue in regard to payments... which obviously puts everyone else at a disadvantage.

I'm sure that you are one of the people that Kenny is refering to when he says "this has also been requested as well as suggested by many of you"... indeed, why not suggest something like this when it is to the advantage of your own company?

RE: I'm continuing to support Kenny and Palmgear.
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/7/2002 5:13:34 PM #
Howard, if I were you, I'd doing the same thing - trying to keep PalmGear out of bankruptcy since you are likely to get the money you are owed that way. However, I'd keep my mouth shut about it since there are obviously a lot of developers who aren't going to get paid. If these payments happen anywhere close to a bankruptcy filing, creditors may question the appropriateness of these payments.
RE: I'm continuing to support Kenny and Palmgear.
htomlinson @ 6/7/2002 5:16:18 PM #
Hmmm - I can see that's how it would appear - especially on a day when everyone seems to be wearing their cynic tinted glasses. If I were to pull our products from PalmGear, that would reduce their income too, and wouldn't help them pay off older debts.

I wasn't one of the ones to suggest this change, though I do agree with it. Having a better plan for payment benefits everyone - even those (like us) who have already worked out a method.

There have been a lot of worries amongst newcomers to the development community that listing through PG wouldn't be a good thing to do, because they wouldn't see any return for many months. Kenny's decision here means that new developers will see their money straight away. (well, after the usual month lag from any reseller). This makes it attractive for new developers to list there again. New products and increased sales allow PG to pay back the older debts faster. Makes sense to me, but YMMV.

I *am* looking at this from the point of view that PG aren't going to go into bankruptcy. To say "There are obviously a lot of developers who aren't going to get paid" I think is unreasonable. Our payments may not have always been timely, but they *have* kept coming in. They never stopped. To have a plan to get up to date is great news for all developers. Perhaps I'm just the one prepared to go against the flow and say so un-anonymously.

RE: I'm continuing to support Kenny and Palmgear.
kickoo @ 6/7/2002 7:30:43 PM #
Since the beginning of Kickoo, we have supported PalmGear and we'll continue : as stated on our web site, our banners and everywhere we put some announce, PalmGear is our exclusive publisher and we encourage other developers to do the same !

PalmGear is the best site for downloading and buying Palm software, and have a huge experience both with customers and developers.

We ( Kickoo ) was not there at the beginning of Palm days, but it seems that PalmGear was very helpfull to developers at these time : now, PalmGear need us and I think it's time to show what solidarity mean.

By the way, there is something I don't understand : a lot of developers was asking on dev lists since months Kenny to do what he finally decided to do.

Where are they, now ?

Kenny gets flammed because he's doing what a lot of developers was asking, it does not really sound logical to me...

Developers, Customers : PalmGear need us, don't let it disapear or it will be the beginning of the end for Palm software !

Daniel Morais

RE: I'm continuing to support Kenny and Palmgear.
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/7/2002 9:38:50 PM #
I believe that there really is little choice for those of you developers who are insistent on being paid on past due items. If conditions come about to cause them to file for Bankruptcy protection, most likely all of you will get next to nothing after a potential liquidiation of assets in a chapter 13 Bankruptcy, and of course, most likely nothing in a Chapter 11 reorganization plan. You are all essentially unsecured creditors. A few of you may be able to get a court to file a judgement before any prospect of Bankruptcy, but you will most likely have to go to Texas for the filing.

If PG closes their doors, the only shot unsecured creditors have at getting any money is for some adventurous soul to head up a creditors committee and represent the lot of you during bankruptcy proceedings. If this person does their due diligence, it may be possible to gain some percentage of monies owed back to the unsecured creditors (if any monies are left from satisfying secured demands). Of course, this person will have to be in Texas, and spend a lot of time (and thus money) to get monies owed for many people. It is often not worthwile for the individual head of the creditors committee.
Your best shot at getting monies owed is to help them stay in business. And nag nag nag. The squeeky wheel gets the oil.

RE: I'm continuing to support Kenny and Palmgear.
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/8/2002 12:31:12 AM #

I have a simple suggestion for you. Why not pay all past dues in an equal manner? It looks at if we are talking about 5 or 6 months of royalities here. I'm sure this can be all paid off in no more than 12 months (1/2 of month past due each month). I think most developers are angry because you are playing the favorites game here and also implying that some of the past due may not ever get paid. You recently raised the royality rate from 10-15% to 25%. Use this money wisely and fairly. I, for one, would like PGHQ to survive if Kenny is going to be "fair" to his developers (which I haven't seen so far/lately). If not, SEE-YA!

Et tu Kickoo?
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/10/2002 12:25:06 AM #
Morias is soundly in bed with Kenny West and more than happy to screw smaller developers who can't negotiate exclusive terms to get paid long overdue funds.

Too bad moral backbones are as lacking in the Palm developer community as they are among Palm software distributors.

I, user, will stay wil Palmgear.

I.M. Anonymous @ 6/7/2002 2:57:12 PM #
I'm no developer, but I am a power user and buy a lot of software from you developers.

From a basic marketing perspective, users WILL choose one to go to on a regular basis. They may have a specific purpose for the other, but only one site can say "Palm Software" in our brains by default.

Having said that, I have tried both sites often to decide which one I should treat as my default. I will use and buy software from Palmgear. Here is why:
-Faster, more natural interface. It is more software title centered and exposes you to new titles (popular and unpopular) without all the clutter of Handango.
-Dedication to the PalmOS platform. There is, really, little reason for a single site to service multiple platforms at once. It's just another layer we must trudge through.

And, perhaps most importantly
-SITE SPEED AND PERFORMANCE. Fact is, Palmgear's response time is blazing fast in comparison. It matters. And those who say it doesn't matter to them just haven't noticed yet. Study after study shows that it matters bigtime. I click on a link at Handango and I wait. Soon I click off in frustration and go back to Palmgear.

I can sympathize with those who are not getting paid for their software. That's sad and pathetic. I'd advise the developers to demand a written contract with Palmgear from here on out (it is a GOOD THING, not a bad thing) and extract promises regarding their money practices. If they want to take your money and invest it in their company, then they better pay interest on it and it better be your choice. Otherwise, it should go in an account untouched.

Back to Palmgear to find a good metronome for my m505...

RE: I, user, will stay wil Palmgear.
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/7/2002 4:43:39 PM #
"I can sympathize with those who are not getting paid for their software."

Guess what... those developers who are not getting paid would probably prefer NOT to sell their software through PalmGear at all (thus, a loss to the Palm community as a whole) than have PalmGear sell it and keep the money themselves!!!

I think PalmGear is doing a great job here in putting the blame onto developers ("unloyal") and Handango ("fake lawsuit") but have yet to take any responsibility for themselves!

I really wish there was a strong alternative to Handango (that would be healthy for us all), but it's not PalmGear...

The justice is in our hands

I.M. Anonymous @ 6/7/2002 4:51:36 PM #
I have been a loyal PGHQ Partner for 3 years. After reading Kenny's letter several times I understand that : We will never receive our own money!
This might be a new beginning for PalmGear, but for me this is the end - I stopped Palm developing 6 months ago. I spent these months in a deep depression, watching how much I sell and wondering why I don't receive my revenue.
The most offensive is that this guy never said something like that: " We sorry/apologies but we can not pay your revenue". There were several other heartbreaking letters from Kenny during the last year. This cheeky guy continues to push us to trade our revenue for advertising and discounts, etc.
His new plans are simply offensive and they are another way to throw some dust in our developers eyes.
THIS IS A VERY ANCIENT PRINCIPLE OF CROOCKS - to owe somebody money and to keep the hope alive that he'll get his money sometime in the future. Then continue to use his work for free!

We the developers are not guilty for anything. We've got an exposure at PalmGear and we agreed to pay 25% of our revenue for that. 100% is unacceptable.

What can be done? There is no sense to support PalmGear thieves anymore.
They have steal from $500 to $5000 from each of us and they must be punished.

First, open your old sources and find a place for a single line in the registration screen:
"Don't by this app at". Then update the app at PalmGear.
Second, forward this last Kenny's letter to all of your customers for the last 5 months and explain them that you have never received their money and they are not registered users of your software. If you have not an own mailing list find and download Pegasus Mail, it's free.

RE: The justice is in our hands
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/7/2002 4:57:44 PM #

To anybody who bought software from PalmGear in the last 6+ months... do you realise that the developer has NEVER received any money for their work and probably never will?


Ask Kenny... or rather, listen to Kenny as he tells you all the reasons why it will be ok in the future, if you leave your software for sale on his website... though there's still no guarantee that you will get paid for it...

RE: The justice is in our hands
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/8/2002 4:12:45 AM #
If you have genuine complaints, please let us know who you are so that Palmgear can take action, and others can find out whether your complaints are just.
Where are the money, PalmGear?
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/8/2002 8:17:50 AM #
Where are the money of the real customers, who have paid my soft with their real credit cards? What give you the rights to hold my funds for 6 months, huh??
These are my “genuine complaints”, as requested.
Why do you want to know who-I-am? To kick me off? We had a deal Kenny, and you PISS on this deal. The deal was: PalmGear pays the developers monthly. Read the agreement at your site, please.

RE: The justice is in our hands
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/8/2002 9:46:22 AM #
I think that if you alter the Palmgear Code it could get you into some legal hot water, if you got the code fragment from PalmGear.. if you wrote it on your own then leagally that's cool...

If I was one of your customers, and I might be.. who knows... I would really be pissed off if you sent me a letter saying I spent money, and get nothing, and I should send you more. No matter how much you say it's PalmGear's fault, they preceive that your just grabbing money... I would sugest that you send a letter stipulating that palmgear is no longer a provider of your software, and why, and that you will honor their purchas dispite the lack of payment from Palmgear, but please direct all upgrade payment directly to you the developer.. This would seem fair to me...


ps. and then when you sue their ass, you won't have any possablity of counter suites.

Price Fixing

I.M. Anonymous @ 6/7/2002 4:52:38 PM #
There are a couple of things I'm not clear on--Who sets the price of software that is sold on PGHQ, and what is the nature of the relationship between PGHQ and developers?

If developers are setting the prices charged by PGHQ, there is a decent chance that both the developers and PGHQ are guilty of price fixing. This is a per se violation of the Sherman Act, which would subject the guilty parties to treble damages and attorneys fees. It is also, technically, a felony, though this type of case is never prosecuted criminally.

The only way this could NOT be a Sherman Act violation is if PG is acting as an AGENT of the developers. (For example, if you sell your house through a real estate agent, it is not illegal for you to instruct the agent what price to charge.) It seems unlikely, though, that PG is acting as an agent of the developers, considering the commingling of funds that has taken place and PG's refusal to pay developers funds that are legitimately owned. It seems, from the discussions on here, that PG doesn't even have a written agreement with its developers. I think that a court could very easily find that PG is not acting as an agent, and that PG, therefore, is guilty of major antitrust violations. I hope they have good lawyers.

RE: Price Fixing
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/7/2002 5:26:28 PM #
I'm unclear as well... why don't developers just pull their programs from PalmGear? Can PGHQ just keep them anyway even if you ask to pull them? That sounds illegal! If you don't like the fact that you aren't getting paid, why let PGHQ sell your stuff anymore??? I'm not trying to take sides, just a confused customer trying to make sense of this extremely provocative issue. Any clarification from PGHQ and developers would be appreciated.

Overall, I've been pleased with PGHQ service over the last 4 years. But, if they are profitting from people's hard work and then not paying them, that is EXTREMELY uncool. I understand the lawsuit cost money and that it ties up capital, freezes assets, and makes getting financing difficult. I know nothing of Kenny's business decision-making skills, but it sounds like many commenters feel they are poor. Can you give examples of this to illustrate your criticisms more clearly?

Thanks in advance for any help better understanding this situation.

RE: Price Fixing
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/7/2002 5:46:00 PM #
Yikes. does it mean there is a chance for a class action suit by consumer against PQ now?

This PQ better start to behave nicely and not pissed people off ro they will be gone in no time.

RE: Price Fixing
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/8/2002 5:30:57 AM #
Of course everybody can remove their products from PalmGear (there is a "Delete product" button on the developer's pages). Why I won't do this, though, is that the exposure at PalmGear is incredible higher than at Handango. I am currently selling my products at Handango, PalmGear and an own shop and have 3% registrations at Handango, 45% at PalmGear and the rest at my place. Download figures are not that extreme, but still my products are downloaded at least twice as much at PalmGear than at Handango.

So Handango is in my experience not a good place to start Palm business (not even considering their aggressive contract) because the exposure is weak, even though they run the software connection at Palm and Handspring and Yahoo and and and.

Of course, if you are a developer/company that sells software for thousands of dollars a month you will get the front-page exposure at Handango and the figures may change (but in this case you also can get even better exposure at PalmGear placing an ad). But for us ordinary programmers PalmGear is the best place currently available to get the exposure.

About the price fixing: every reseller (or whatever the correct term is, don't nail me on it) insists that the price is fixed. E.g. Handango insists in their agreement:

"At no time shall the Software's SRP provided to Publisher [Handango] be higher than the Software's SRP provided to other distributors."

As they are keeping 30% of my money, of course I won't lower the price - but I cannot raise it either because of the above term.

Same for PalmGear and other resellers.

So the prices are set by the developers but they have to decide on a price that is technically identical at all resellers.

So if you want to sue PalmGear for this, please sue Handango first.

Gee, I wish there were more

I.M. Anonymous @ 6/7/2002 5:13:39 PM #
Un-****ing believable!

Nearly everyone here is posting how PalmGear owes us this and they're screwing the developers, etc....

And in the same breathe, "Oh, how I wish there was some other site out there besides Handango that would cater to the Palm OS community that wasn't PalmGear - cause they screwed us developers..."

What a bunch of ungrateful, un-loyal, SOB's!

If I were Kenny and I read through all the crap you people are posting here I would pull the plug today, sell all my Palm OS devices, and go join the M$ PocketPC community - at least they have loyalty!

PS. I would post on my NOW closed website on the main index.html page - "Hear Yeah, hear yeah! Closed due to lack of funding, user support from the community and frivolous lawsuits - convert over to the Dark Side while your still enjoying life...."

Kenny, I don't know how you can stand all this B$ and I'm sorry you have to deal with the crap these ******** are giving you.

Power to you brother!

RE: Gee, I wish there were more
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/7/2002 6:00:41 PM #
I wish to see your loyalty on action.
Just imagine this situation: someone in the real life owes you $5000 and then he says
"Give me another $1000 and maybe and I will return your money someday. But if you are not playing my game with my rules your chances to get your money are minimal, sorry I am not sorry….."

How do you feel j%rk?

RE: Gee, I wish there were more
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/7/2002 9:34:01 PM #
So Palmgear is asking to to pay another $1000 and then maybe they'll pay you in return? No ****?

Well, hey buddy, I didn't see anyone twisting your arm to list your software with PalmGear to begin with!

Hell, why don't you post your website here so we can all pay you a visit, evaulate your software, and decide to buy it if we feel its useful.

What was the name of your website again....
" stupid-to-have-my-own-site-so- Ill-list-my-cheesey-software-with-PalmGear- and-when- they-dont-pay-me-"

Oh, well, I think I see why NO one is visiting your site to evaluate and buy your software....

Hmmm, have you thought about possibly advertising costs,

or maybe a breathe mint????

A novel idea

I.M. Anonymous @ 6/7/2002 5:32:14 PM #
Hey, Kenny, I have an idea. Why don't you offer shares of PalmGear to the developers who you owe money to? That sounds like a fair solution to me. After all, you took their money to fund an entrepeneurial risk as if they were owners rather than creditors. OK, it didn't pan out.

I think shares of PalmGear should be divided up among the creditors. A board of directors could be elected that could make you an offer to stay on as CEO. That would keep PalmGear going.

In fact, I think that's what your creditors should ask for. Ownership, not money.

RE: A novel idea
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/11/2002 9:08:08 AM #
I suggested that to him about a year ago. He refused.

I (user) am going to buy from developers

I.M. Anonymous @ 6/7/2002 5:43:23 PM #
I also feel upset my money didn't go to the developers.
I will use PalmGear to search for the Software and then go to the developers site.

I deliberately want the developers to get the extra dollars.

I wouldn't mind if PalmGear wasn't there too much; I would just use Google instead.

This story really makes me angry.

RE: I (user) am going to buy from developers
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/8/2002 7:42:25 AM #
... in addition to the above I want to say, that I certainly won't by from Handango,

since they are so much "money oriented" that they offer software bundles for 20$, that you can as well get for free if you are a bit informed.

Although that's business, it doesn't fit to the idea of a "palm community", so I won't support them

PalmGear and Handango

Frank Wilkinson @ 6/7/2002 6:05:11 PM #
Without getting into arguments about Palmgear's slightly dodgy financial position I have no doubt whatsoever which is the better site for consumers.

I've spent all evening trying to access Handango's Palm page only to give up in frustration after watching the line creep along. I have Broadband and connect with PalmGear in seconds. Their products seem to update almost hourly even at weekends and their service is superb.

If Handango want to attract more of my business then they will have to improve dramatically.

Possibly the problem is that they are now too big to be efficient, with lots of different operating systems whereas PalmGear has only Palm.

I hope that PalmGear survive, they deserve to.

RE: PalmGear and Handango
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/7/2002 7:26:12 PM #
There could be a domain name server down or in need of an update somewhere between you and Handango. I have DSL (most probably slower than your broadband connection), and I've never had problems connecting quickly to the Handango site, save for the occasional glitches seen on any website, including Palm Gear.
RE: PalmGear and Handango
Frank Wilkinson @ 6/8/2002 6:43:32 AM #
I am replying to my own criticism of Handango to be as fair to them as possible. Yesterday I had had a frustrating golf game and came home and decided to buy 2 'PDAGolfPro' apps which I'd seen earlier on their site. I'd already downloaded the free 'Bunkers' version and liked it. Imagine my frustration when I spent all evening trying to access their site to spend $20 on two apps but just couldn't get on. After I wrote the above I also fired off a snotty email to Handango. Within minutes I received two replies, one from a VP and one from a chief techie who apologised to me and told me that they had had a fault which they had been working on for hours. Another few minutes later they sent me a '25% Off' discount code. (I used this later and saved $5 on my purchases.) In my opinion a company should not be judged not on its equipment failing, which can happen to anyone, but on how they treat customers and put things right later. In this area Handango have come out with 5 stars!
However.................. I stand by my other comments that they still have a long way to go in coming up to PalmGear's standard in website design and speed of product replenishment.

As a user i like Palmgear much more then Handngo

I.M. Anonymous @ 6/7/2002 8:18:02 PM #
I feel sorry for small developers, but a a user who buys software palmgear makes it much easier to find what i want . I honestly hate how handango handles the way categories are presented etc. I know many developers are saying "I will pull all of my products" but dont forget many users will just still go to palmgear and buy your competitors product since yours is just not listed.

RE: As a user i like Palmgear much more then Handngo
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/8/2002 6:20:46 PM #
I always go to PGHQ to check for updates to program I have purchased a license for, look for new apps to demo (and if I like, I buy). Bottom line I have visited Handango a few times in the last 2 years of Palm OS ownership.

If you are not listed on PGHQ, most likely I don't know you exist and therefore buy someone elses products.

Why don't you start your own?

I.M. Anonymous @ 6/7/2002 10:29:00 PM #
I know little about internet startups and what they take, but there seem to be so many developers that you could start a COOP. Sounds like Aaron already has software. I do know about buying software. I am up to almost $3K in Palm software starting with my old Visor Deluxe through a Vx and now a 505. (Yes, I am a freak, but one that developers love). I would rather put my cash where it should rightfully go and hopefully give incentive to developers to make better, more timely apps and updates.

Just my 300,000 cents.

RE: Why don't you start your own?
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/7/2002 10:52:34 PM #
If Linux development model can success, why a co-op can not success. If the annual transaction reaches 10 milion US$ (easily), 3.0% to 3.5% processing fee need to against your merchant accout. 1% hosting cost (100K), 2 to 3% toward to salary for accounting personnels (300K). If 7.5% is the max. Why you pay 20% to PG and 30% to Handango ?
RE: Why don't you start your own?
Smaug @ 6/11/2002 12:01:37 AM #
Marketing, web designers, people to run the site, bandwith costs quite a bit of money. Many people chargeback, profit, it's not all fun and games trust me :).

Explain something to me

LarryGarfield @ 6/7/2002 11:03:56 PM #
All of those people who are claiming that PalmGear has engaged in improper business practices or run the company into the ground, and that the community (users and developers) should help it on the way down, please explain something to me. What exactly has PalmGear done that is so horrible?

Ignore for a moment this particular announcement. What evil has PalmGear done? Provided a one-stop location for the community to find software? Charged a competitive comission compared to a brick-and-mortar store? (You didn't think CompUSA was a community service agency, did you?) NOT played favorites and allowed small developers to compete on an equal footing with larger developers? Or maybe you mean be the victim of a predatory lawsuit that would make Microsoft proud?

Yes, PG hasn't paid developers their cuts for the past few months, but that was due to the lawsuit, which is hardly PalmGear's fault. Now, PalmGear is cutting its losses (and developers) and, people seem to miss this part, pledging to fully pay developers for sales from now on, and get to back payments when it can. Under the circumstances, wouldn't you prefer that to constantly waiting to see when they're going to catch up?

I'm not a developer myself. Could someone who is preaching about how evil and nasty PalmGear is and how they're such a poor business explain their reasoning to me? Because as is I do not understand your position in the slightest.

This post is ROT26 encrypted. Reading it is a violation of the DMCA

RE: Explain something to me
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/8/2002 12:57:33 AM #
The lawsuit was NOT the problem. The problem started the day Kenny decided it was OK to spend money that was never theirs to begin with. He should have been putting the 80% of their software revenue into a seperate account for paying back developers. They should have NEVER used that money for expenses, web development, lawyers, etc.

If they got to the point where they could no longer afford their operating expenses, they should have reduced expenses or just GONE OUT OF BUSINESS. It would have been much easier on developers if they'd just gone away back then. It would have been a shock initially, then everone would just shift to Handango and life would go on. Instead, they've lied, strung developers along, refused to pay money that is due, and caused more hassle to developers than if they'd just closed up shop a year ago.

RE: Explain something to me
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/8/2002 1:35:09 AM #
Uhh... this is what Handango was exactly trying to do!

Of course you already knew that since you work for them!


err...sorry - I'm really trying to see it from your point of view, but I'm having a really difficult time sticking my head that FAR up my A$$!

How'd you manage??

RE: Explain something to me
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/8/2002 4:18:14 AM #
If there is only one mega site for Palm software, users wlll eventually lose out since Handango can charge whatever to developers as their fees, and that cost will no doubt pass onto the consumers (in fact, they charge more even now--as a result, some of their software prices are higher than Palmgear and developer's).

Is this what we want?

RE: Explain something to me
Frank Wilkinson @ 6/8/2002 10:17:07 AM #
What worries me more than this Palm/Handango argument is that we have people out there who have presumably reached adulthood but can't spell 'loser'. Perhaps they should be enroling in evening classes rather than wasting their time on sites like this.

RE: Explain something to me
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/8/2002 11:31:06 AM #
It worries you *more* that someone did not correctly spell a word? You should seriously consider therapy ;-)
RE: Explain something to me
Frank Wilkinson @ 6/8/2002 12:55:23 PM #
Look up 'irony'.

RE: Explain something to me
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/8/2002 1:53:04 PM #
Larry -- I think it was this particular announcement that has people riled up. Not the paying current months forward part; I think that's a good move and most people would agree. But the preferential payment plan seems like the same smarmy business practice as their past move of raising their cut except to those sellers who "go exclusive" with them. It's like they're threatening you with your own money.

As for past "questionable" things PalmGear has done: how about remove links to web sites and FAQ pages (without offering an alternative for users to get this info), hiking their cut in the first place, making late payments without warning or any "projection" of when these monies will be paid, etc.

But mostly I think this is just a final bad decision from a company that hasn't made a lot of good ones.

Think of is this way, Larry...
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/8/2002 5:03:54 PM #
Larry, the problem is spending money that's not yours. In other systems this is a total scandel. Say, if I were to run a bank or a mutual fund and I took clients' money to help along my short-term emergency costs for lawsuits and such...I'd be in jail! If I staff a cash register and use that money for myself, I've committed some serious theft even if I DID fully intend to return the money.

Of course, what Palmgear did (arguably) wasn't illegal. That is because the developers didn't sign any contract saying that they WOULD get paid for people buying their software. It's fairly ironic that this was Palmgear's marketing point before now ("Unlike that mean old Handango, WE don't make you sign complex contracts. We just settle business on a hand shake etc etc etc").

So...bad developers for letting Palmgear do this nothing-in-writing policy crap. Bad Palmgear for getting this big without it. Bad Palmgear for spending money that's not theirs (albeit in their short term possession).

And I think the new policy backfired. What people are hearing is
"sorry we screwed up. We'll actually pay people in the least we plan to. And as for your money that we haven't given you...we'll try to get to that. And BTW, we'll be much more motivated to get to that if you don't do business with our competitors."

The Palm community would be far more forgiving if the message was
"We are so sorry we screwed up and spent your money. It's beneath our position in the community. We have altered our policies so this never happens again. Furthermore, we WILL PAY BACK all owed moneys...and we will not make a dime of profit until we have paid all we owe to you, the developers who make our business work."

class action suit.

I.M. Anonymous @ 6/8/2002 9:30:59 AM #

I don't mind that PalmGear Killed all the links to your (developer) web sites... makes business sense...
I'm not going to make it easy to buy direct.

But this gets my goat..
So to add Gas to the fire..

Just get together as a group hire a lawyer, and get the money. If we don't show the 'Fat cats' that we're not going to pay for their "extra expenses" read new blue Hummer. They will keep on doing the questionable accounting... the moneys your take it.

Read Fatal Subtraction Buchwald V. Paramount to see just how #$%!_ked you can get by big corporations.


RE: class action suit.
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/8/2002 5:51:09 PM #
Chances are a legal suit would cost alot of money, then in the end, if successful, Palmgear would most likely close it's doors and you would end up with pennies on the dollar and foot the bill for the legal expenses.
You may not be happy with the what Kenny is doing, but it's your best chance to get all your money.
I also think Kenny is making a mistake by paying current supporters first, that shows favor to a group of creditors which may come back to haunt both parties involved and brews bad blood with those who supported him in the past. When PG returns to profitability, it will want these developers products back, showing favorites now may be a bad long term business practice.

RE: class action suit.
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/10/2002 2:50:52 AM #
PG will never payback, they have used up 100% of developers money over last 6 mths and expect to pay back with the 20-30% cut they are taking now?

Let's say 10% goes to running pghq, 600%/20%=30mths to backback everything!!

PGHQ has been mismanaged and should have closed 6mths ago. Boo! to PGHQ for cheating our money(knowingly or not!).

RE: class action suit.
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/10/2002 11:18:43 AM #
Your calculations are incorrect. If PalmGear takes 10% to run monthly expenses, this is 1/2 of the 20% take (which is really 25%). So that leaves about 1/2 left off as profits each month. Therefore to back-pay 6 months would take 12 months. Either way, it's going to be a while, if ever.
RE: class action suit.
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/10/2002 11:54:51 AM #
80% to developer / 10% they can pay back. 8 * 6 month will be 48 months
RE: class action suit.
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/10/2002 12:01:33 PM #
Uhh, you guys don't think that PG runs on 10% of sales do you? If that were so, there wouldn't be the debt problem right now.

If they haven't been paying developers the 80% of sales that they owe for six months, doesn't that mean that it would take 80% divided by 10% times six months to pay back ten percent of sales for debt service?Sounds to me like it takes four years.


sandbuck @ 6/10/2002 8:59:42 AM #
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RE: Pathetic
I.M. Anonymous @ 6/10/2002 1:30:29 PM #
No. I want my money you scoundrels!

PalmGear where is my money????

I.M. Anonymous @ 7/29/2002 10:30:51 AM #
Thank you Palm Gear for screwing the developers. This company owes me many months of "back pay". Unfortunately Handango is just as slimy for forcing Palm Gear into the lawsuit that took my money. Time for developers to unite and take control of the situation. Perhaps a developer guild should be started to keep the software outlet sites from getting the better of us.
"Mad as hell and not going to take it any more"
RE: PalmGear where is my money????
Altema @ 7/29/2002 10:41:15 AM #
PalmGear not paying developers? Is this just a few, or a majority? If they are not giving the money I sent them to the appropriate parties, my PalmGear purchase days are over.

RE: PalmGear where is my money????
I.M. Anonymous @ 7/29/2002 10:56:31 AM #
It's very true... This has been going on since February... And I as a developer is forced to keep apps listed at PG for fear of never ever being paid.
RE: PalmGear where is my money????
I.M. Anonymous @ 7/29/2002 11:00:30 AM #
I am Christophe Théron, developper of Chess Tiger for Palm.

I do not want to complain about PalmGear anonymously. I think every developper who wants to complain should use their real name.

PalmGear owes me SEVERAL MONTHS of payments. I have stopped receiving any check from them since a long time.

I think people considering to buy anything at PalmGear should know that by doing so the developper of the application they want to buy will NOT BE PAID.

I will still provide support to the customers who have bought at PalmGear, even if PalmGear has not paid me for those sales, but I'm not sure that every developper would do it.

If you buy at PalmGear:
* Probably the developper will not be paid.
* Consequently you might not get any support for your product because of the above.

With that in mind, it's not surprising that several months ago Palm stopped working with PalmGear and switched to Handango.

Now feel free to flame me. My email address is

If you are a developper and PalmGear retains a lot of your money, do me a favor and post using your real name.

PalmGear's behaviour is a shame, and I do not see why we should hide when we want to discuss about it. We are not guilty of anything. PalmGear IS guilty.

RE: PalmGear where is my money????
I.M. Anonymous @ 7/29/2002 11:04:17 AM #
Wow, that's truly scandelous. I don't think a lot of people outside of the developer world are truly aware that this is going on. I know I wasn't. Maybe PIC should run a story on it.
RE: PalmGear where is my money????
kezza @ 7/29/2002 11:26:47 AM #
This whole palmgear fiasco made me pretty mad, so the very first thing i did was start buying software directly from the developer's website, using whatever method they recommend. This way, I go to palmgear and find software I like, try it out, and if I decide to buy it I go to the developer's website and buy it using their links. Sometimes this means I buy through handango. Sometimes it means I buy through the developer's own checkout system. I'm fine with those.
Actually, for all you developers sick of not getting paid by palmgear, it seems like a lot of people are moving towards using paypal, while keeping their software listed at palmgear, etc.
It might not hurt to put a link to your software website in your palmgear software description, then set up a paypal account for people to buy the software from your site.
Oh, and for the record, I wouldn't be caught dead putting my money into one of these machines. I'd rather see palmgear get their act together.

"Well, if it isn't the leader of the wiener patrol, boning up on his nerd lessons"
RE: PalmGear where is my money????
I.M. Anonymous @ 7/29/2002 2:28:31 PM #
Í think there are some bastarts posting here!
Why do you don´t remove your software from palmgear?
yes, perhaps it will be better in the future, and you expect again good money?
palmgar never was lying to anyone. Everyone was told from palmgear, that the company is in finacily trouble and will/can pay you later!
Has any stock company done that to you? How much money have you lost there? Have they called you and warned you about finaciall trouble? (Worldcom etc.)
I never have read a thank you to palm gear in a forum when the monthly check was ariving! And for some of you the monthly check was not to bad. Some of you got 5000 US$ and more a month.
Most of you still using palmgears name just as cheap advertisment and sell the software "around the corner"!
Is that consequent?
RE: PalmGear where is my money????
I.M. Anonymous @ 7/29/2002 2:29:58 PM #
I'm Bruce Richards and I am a developer and have programs listed on PG. I am one of the unfortunate developers that has not received paymnets for March, April and May. That being said, I tried to put links to my website into my descriptions only to be called and emailed by PG tech support saying that is a definate no-no and would not be tolerated. So there you have it guys and girls. They will keep your money and not allow you to get people back to your own web site where you can actually get paid for the software you worked so hard to create.

A class action suit will not solve matters. If PG goes out of business developers will never see their money. If PG files bankruptcy we may see pennies on the dollar.

My suggestion to anyone wanting to purchase any palm software is use PG as a search site. Read the documentation that is included in the archive for alternative ways to purchase a product. But please shy away from buying though the PG site if possible.

RE: PalmGear where is my money????
ardiri @ 7/29/2002 3:40:22 PM #
    Why do you don´t remove your software from palmgear?

do you know that if you remove your software from PGHQ - your "priority" for repayment goes to the bottom of the list. we personally keep our applications on PGHQ in the hope that one day we'll get paid. the software still sells - we have no problem with this.

the issue is that until the payment system is fixed - most developers wont be submitting new titles to be listed. thats standard business practice - new software = high sales, but, if your not sure about getting paid, will you risk it?

    palmgear never was lying to anyone. Everyone was told from palmgear, that the company is in financialy trouble and will/can pay you later!

its very nice for PGHQ to inform developers - but, do you really think they *can* pay back the money owed? i am not an accountant, but, my math says that since sales are lower, and, developers are reluctant to put new software up - if anything, the debt will get worse. why do you think PGHQ has opted to basically say they will revert back to "normal" operations from june onwards, anything pre-june is considered arrears, and, will come later.

    I never have read a thank you to palm gear in a forum when the monthly check was ariving! And for some of you the monthly check was not to bad. Some of you got 5000 US$ and more a month.

i think it is irrelevant how much money is involved here - some developers run their software business as a real business; they have rents to pay, salaries to pay.. delays like the ones most people have experienced has caused some development outfits to "ease back" on development, just to stay alive.

    Most of you still using palmgears name just as cheap advertisment and sell the software "around the corner"!
    Is that consequent?

PGHQ is still the largest software directory. they are implementing strong controls such that no references to the developers websites are made, if it isn't sold on PGHQ - its not listed. all these are actions they are trying to do such that "abuse" of free bandwith is not happening. but, really - who is losing out here?

do you think PGHQ can show enough information to the user about a product? if i purchase software, i like to see what it does; what type of support the developer provides, maybe discussion forums about the product, help pages, maybe more screenshots. a lot of these are not listed on the "sales" website - hence, its not good in any way.

maybe you should think about what your saying before you ramble on here - there is always a lot going on underneath the "covers"; which, most people dont see. try being a developer, put yourself in our position. think about being a user, will your money ever make it to the developer?

sure, PGHQ is/was a great service; but, everyone is going through a rough time right now. i surely hope they pull out of it ok - the last thing we need is a monopoly with sales distribution.

// az

Give Kenny a break
I.M. Anonymous @ 7/29/2002 5:06:19 PM #
To let you know what is going on over at PalmGear, they are right now in the middle of fighting for their suvival against Handango. The investors of HandEra sued PalmGear in court over several laughable statues since a buyout of PalmGear was refused.

While PalmGear did win the suit, for whatever reason, PalmGear wasn't able to have the court rule that Handango should pay all court and legal fees. Unfortunately, this is a known technique of entrepenurial supression and we kill you if you are not properly trained on how to handle this.

So instead of the money going to you, the developer, and PalmGear salaries, it is going to a fat cat, corporate attorney that was charging as much as the top Palm developers out here if not slightly more. I just hope Kenny isn't taking a second job to keep afloat.

My attitude is that software manufacturing doesn't cost me anything since it is just uploading a PRC. The money will come eventually and you can use other channels. Welcome to the real world.



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