Comments on: New SD Cameras Coming This Month

Veo, a digital imaging product and services company, has announced a new line of PDA digital cameras. The Photo Traveler series of cameras plug into handhelds with an SD or Compact Flash expansion slots.
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Extra Specs.

htomlinson @ 10/4/2002 6:59:49 PM #
I was just going to ask about specs, but checking the website, the vital stats are:
640x480 digital resolution
Takes 24-bit full color photos

Looks like a bit of fun :)

RE: Extra Specs.
Admin @ 10/4/2002 7:12:00 PM #
thanks Howard, I updated the article.
RE: Extra Specs.
Altema @ 10/4/2002 7:25:42 PM #
Now those are specs I can work with... and for $99? I think I could tolerate moving files to a card after a dozen shots at that price.

RE: Extra Specs.
sfdh66787 @ 10/6/2002 11:13:39 AM #
640x480 great, but on one of Palm's 160x160 screens? Seems a bit of a loss...(Not including of course the OS 5 Palmtops).

RE: Extra Specs.
cyruski @ 10/8/2002 2:39:28 PM #
you make me laugh. really.

in your way of thinking, the megapixel digital cameras indeed have a very small screen for the images.

you take photos in 640x480, and preview in 160x160, just as in digital cameras. hello?


abosco @ 10/4/2002 7:09:17 PM #
Wow! Only $99.99??? That's a very good price for what you seem to get here, considering a Palmpix camera for an m100 series is $75!

Very good job. I hope to see it soon so I could possibly pop it into a Tungsten T at CompUSA and play with it and compare it with the NX camera. I can't wait!

Beer is living proof that God wants us to be happy. -Benjamin Franklin

Handera support?

Wollombi @ 10/4/2002 7:30:52 PM #
It mentions that it would work with OS 4, 4.1, and 5. What about Handera's tweaked version of 3.5? I know it won't work in the 330's SD slot, but the article also mentions that it can work in a CF slot.

So, will it work with a Handera?


It is not very comfortable to have the gift of being amused at one's own absurdity.
-Somerset Maugham-

RE: Handera support?
pocketscience @ 10/4/2002 8:05:27 PM #
From the web site there are 2 products. 1) an SDIO device for Palm devices, and 2) a CF device for PPC's.

The HE330 could potentially use the CF device if a driver were made available. But who's going to write it? Unfortunately the size of the HE330 user base probably doesn't warrant the camera mfr writing it... but there are developers out there who I'm sure would be ready to have a shot at it... just look at the 802.11 drivers available for Newtons... :-)


Calling all Hardware Developers!

robman @ 10/4/2002 7:33:15 PM #
When will you learn??? The SD slot is for STORAGE, and the Universal Connector is for PERIPHERALS. Once again someone is building a device which in principle, is very interesting and potentially useful, but has completly crippled it's success by blocking off the SD slot.

Want to take pictures with the Veo Photo Traveler? Not right to your SD card you're not. You'd better reserve enough system memory to store your images. Want to show a presentation with your Margi Presenter-To-Go? Not one of any considerable size, since it would have to be kept on your SD card if that was the case. Want to share large quantities of data with another Palm? Like to take advantage of the speed advantage of Bluetooth over old fashioned IR? Scratch sending them anything large, since you have to remove your SD card to stick in the SDIO Bluetooth card!

I love Palm, and I love that people are developing hardware add-ons, but is it really that much harder to use the Universal connector? Are the development and production costs really that much higher? What's going on here?

Palm Research at the University of Texas at Austin

RE: Calling all Hardware Developers!
jgb9348 @ 10/4/2002 7:48:28 PM #
Of course the primary area for input/output devices should be in through the Universal Connector, but the major obvious caveat is that it will add excess bulk to the handheld, and especially for the Palm m500 series, the reason most of us bought our PDA is because of the small size. While the SD Slot is PRIMARILY for Memory Cards, it isn't the only reason it is on Palm devices. SDIO (Input/Output) was designed for external devices that COULD* be small enough to fit onto a SD Card. I am completely in favour of SDIO Cards, especially the Bluetooth Card. I would love to see more SDIO cards, but we've only been priveledged to see a few.


*Remember the originial Palm SDIO Cards? The Barcode Reader, etc.....whatever happened to those?????

RE: Calling all People Who Don't want a Brick! :)
msmasitti @ 10/4/2002 7:53:12 PM #
Read the title. ;) The universal slot peripherals are HUGE! This thing you can easily fit into your pocket, etc. I like it.

O/T Mod
RE: Calling all Hardware Developers!
pocketscience @ 10/4/2002 7:55:49 PM #
Hello...? Why did the SD association build the SDIO spec then... if not for devices?

The lack of storage on the camera is a hindrance - granted, but using SD makes the whole setup much more compelling than a sled.

What you should be asking hardware developers to do is build RAM into the devices - which is totally possible considering that SDIO cards can contain up to 7 "devices" (ie some memory and the camera).

Technically it's harder to build an SDIO device than a sled, but the SDIO device is much more marketable.

Stating that SD is ONLY for storage is short-sighted and shows a lack of understanding.


RE: Calling all Hardware Developers!
N473 @ 10/4/2002 8:05:05 PM #
This is why I have always thought there should be two SD slots on Palm OS machines. Not a CF and SD, 2 SD. Any manufacturers listening?

RE: Calling all Hardware Developers!
pocketscience @ 10/4/2002 8:10:33 PM #
Bingo! Remember the rumoured Panasonic device that supposedly had 2 SD slots...? Schweet...


RE: Calling all Hardware Developers!
abosco @ 10/4/2002 8:17:51 PM #
"Not a CF and SD, 2 SD. Any manufacturers listening?"

Yes, Alphasmart's Dana incorporated 2 SD slots. Sure, the Dana isn't really a handheld, but they ARE listening. I wouldn't be surprised if eight months from now, [i]real[/i] dual expansion is almost standard on devices (not like Palm's idea of dual expansion).

Beer is living proof that God wants us to be happy. -Benjamin Franklin

RE: Calling all Hardware Developers!
pocketscience @ 10/4/2002 8:18:48 PM #

Your comment is even more interesting in light of your web site...!!

You list as one of your "wants", an SD-based digital camera!!

Careful what you ask for - you just might get it!! :-)


RE: Calling all Hardware Developers!
useybird @ 10/4/2002 8:52:41 PM #
How do you think the bt card works? SDIO cards use the device and the memory built in. Why do you think they're longer?

Burning Desire: The want or need for something great.
Burning THE Zire: A fun recreational activity involving setting Palm's new crappy handheld ablaze.
RE: Calling all Hardware Developers!
chewer @ 10/4/2002 9:02:27 PM #

It is likely that the hardware developers are taking into account that not every Palm OS device with an SD slot also utilizes Palm's Universal Connector. Why would they want to limit themselves when, it would seem, more companies will be adding SD slots while most will not be using the universal connector.

RE: Calling all Hardware Developers!
HandyMan @ 10/4/2002 9:17:20 PM #
The problem is that the Universal Connector isn't really "universal". There's probably more devices that have the SD slot than ones that have the Palm "Universal Connector".

RE: Calling all Hardware Developers!
Strider_mt2k @ 10/4/2002 9:44:07 PM #
I have to disagree.
From the beginning, SD has been marketed as being multi-use.
I recall seeing a display on a web page in the past showing all kinds of SD-based peripherals, MP3 players, cameras and memory, as well as potential for other uses.
As I recall the problem has been with the comparatively low power that the SD slot provides. (somewhere in the 3 volts range)
This one factor has made it necessary to develop stuff like the low power CCD or CMOS (they don't specify) image sensor used in the camera, for instance.

I think (hope?) we are just beginning to see some pretty cool SD peripherals come down the line.

RE: Calling all Hardware Developers!
OzziePalmDieHard @ 10/4/2002 10:01:07 PM #
Yeah, i have to agree that UC peripherals are really bloated.

There should be some way around this, in the highend, dual expansion is normally two different card slots. The problem with this, is that if you have a CF modem, and perhaps an SD camera, then you need two types of memory, which is not good.

What is needed is two SD slots, so that one can be for SDIO and one for memory. However, the whole thing is only a problem with peripherals that need memory, like camera's, mp3, and notetaker SDIOs.

Hmmm.... another one for the licensees to battle out.

Several Months Ago at Palm Headquarters;

"Hah! Those sony bastards think that they can beat us in stupid names. The Tungsten T is infinitely more ridiculous than "clie"....."

RE: Calling all Hardware Developers!
peter167 @ 10/5/2002 12:10:56 AM #
Hey, how about two SD slots and two USB (2.0 the best) as well? USB devices are flooded around the market.

Lie is the future.
RE: Calling all Hardware Developers!
cyn @ 10/5/2002 1:28:56 AM #

his request for a SD/MMC based digital camera is, I very much expect, a request for an actual stand-alone digital camera that accepts either SD or MMC media. Given the other items he carrys, I think quality is more important to him over bulk, on the whole.

RE: Calling all Hardware Developers!
robman @ 10/5/2002 2:02:47 PM #
To respond en masse: (PIC staff, can we have threaded discussions?)

jgb9348: Do UC devices really have to add that much bulk? Couldn't the device be a wafter thin board? I'll admit I don't know much about hardware engineering but it seems to me that manufacturers ought to be able to build a very small UC device that adds maybe 0.75 centimeters in height to the end of the Palm and a thin, SD-card thickness shell on the backside. Also--SDIO seems like an afterthought. The SD group seemed focus on *secure storage*, not perhiperhal work. Not an expert, but it looks that way.

msmasitti: Yes, most UC peripherals right now are huge. But do they have to be? I'm thinking of old-style Palm III series connectors. Like the TailLight and the Northstar Memory Safe. Even the old PalmPix weren't that bulky, and they used their own batteries!

pocketscience: I think SDIO was tacked on to SD as an afterthought. SDIO perhipherals could come with memory, but then I'd rather just buy the device and manage memory myself. I'll always need memory, not just when I'm taking pictures.

n473: If there were two SD slots I'd have less of an argument, although I think most Palm users would keep one filled with a memory card all the time.

abosco: The Dana (if it ever comes out) does seem to very well designed.

pocketscience (2): I'm sorry my website is unclear. I want a camera that uses SD memory. I'd much rather have a good UC camera to attach to my Palm, but it doesn't look like that will be an option. So I'll just end up moving an SD memory card around all the time.

useybird: Apparently, someone saw a Bluetooth card completly concealed in the device. See:

chewer and HandyMan: I absolutely would have preferred if Palm used a standard I/O adapter rather than inventing their own "Universal Connector". Some of the PPCs can actually act as USB hosts, amazingly enough, meaning you can plug a USB mouse or keyboard into them! But manufacturers seem to like to ignore standards (a la Sony and their !@#$ Memory Stick) because it's a way to segment the market and build other sources of secondary revenue. Also---I don't know of any SDIO devices that work with other machines. Can you put a Palm Bluetooth SDIO card into any other SDIO device?

OzziePalmDieHard: Would you buy a Palm device with two SDIO slots, or even with a SD slot and a SDIO slot? Just curious...

peter167: USB is an interesting standard as it's designed to be shared among multiple devices. As far as I know, you can't easily build a UC device that shares it's connection to the Palm with a another UC device. USB hubs are relatively inexpensive to build. I'd love to see Palm go truly USB.

cyn: You're right. Of course, I'd rather have a Bluetooth camera with virtually no memory, a Palm with Bluetooth built in, and a SD slot on the Palm with a huge SD Memory card in it. Maybe one day I will have it!

All: Doesn't it seem incredibly useful that every virtually power outlet installed today in the United states runs on the same voltage and has the same connector? Wouldn't it be equally great if these vendors would standardize? I just want to be able to
choose the best products and have them work together, not be stuck with some crappy products because there's no interface.

Thanks for listening, robman

Palm Research at the University of Texas at Austin

RE: Calling all Hardware Developers!
devildoc @ 10/5/2002 10:21:50 PM #
Just because _YOU_ have a device that has only ad SD slot doesn't mean that HandEra users should suffer. I could save the pictures to my CF card and have an imaging program read it directily from the CF using AutoCF.
What _ALL_ hardware developers should have learned from the original Newton MessagePad is that functional, hard working PDAs need two expansion slots. No or one expansion slot is OK for FNGs and people purchasing another toy, but if you have serious uses for your PDA [medicine, engineering, retail...] you need two expansion slots. One for peripherals [camera, modem, connectivity] and another for memory/media transfer [CF, SD, PCMCIA]

RE: Calling all Hardware Developers!
vbing @ 11/14/2002 3:07:26 PM #
The UC also carries power for the Palm device, while SDIO is a very low voltage device. Using a
device that plugs into the UC means that either you need to build some power conditioning into it (adding even more bulk) so that you can still power the Palm while using the SDIO device OR you have to live with losing the power source. No matter what, you still have a trade-off.

Ozziepalmdiehard wrote:
>Several Months Ago at Palm Headquarters;

"Hah! Those sony bastards think that they can beat us in stupid names. The Tungsten T is infinitely more ridiculous than "clie".....">

At least Tunsten is a real world, and with the Wireless version being designated as "W", that explains the T. Please explain what or how exactly you clie ....

Unless it swivels...

Cutting Crew 2 @ 10/5/2002 9:46:19 AM #
Not every device maker has the same orientation for the SD card slot on the device... Pity the poor person who gets this puppy home and discovers that they can't point it at their subject and see a preview since it only points back at their own mug as they look at the screen... Unless I'm missing something, this really limits this widgets appeal.

Mike Compeau
RE: Unless it swivels...
asiayeah @ 10/5/2002 10:03:06 AM #
That's good thinking indeed. I hope the vendor has tested the device on most SD-capable Palm devices on the market already.

I believe the orientation issue may be solved by allowing the image preview on the Palm devices to have different default orientations.

RE: Unless it swivels...
OutdooR @ 10/5/2002 10:28:20 AM #
haha someone finally pointed this out.

speaking of orientation cameras, i want to ask one question about the camera for NX70V.......... before, the NR70V has the swivel camera (260 degrees?) that lets you take pictures with the screen facing you and lens facing the opposite direction. I've notice that in the new NX70V's design, the CF slot kinda 'blocked' the back side, so when the camera lens is being rotated to the CF slot side, its blocked. Any ideas??


RE: Unless it swivels...
kempokaraterulz @ 10/5/2002 11:41:12 AM #
i wonder if they could make it universal so you could put it in the slot eitherway. That could be possible with mem sticks but i dont know the sd cards too well

Ed Hardy: The best damn palm news editor. Ever.
Ansi soit-il.
RE: Unless it swivels...
abosco @ 10/5/2002 12:18:33 PM #
"i wonder if they could make it universal so you could put it in the slot eitherway. That could be possible with mem sticks but i dont know the sd cards too well"

Well, the problem with that would be that you have to have the metallic points of the SD slot on both sides so that the card could be inserted both ways, and also have the slot be square, not having the little notch on one side. It's probably possible, but it might cost a lot more.

Beer is living proof that God wants us to be happy. -Benjamin Franklin

RE: Unless it swivels...
jzaring @ 10/5/2002 12:51:09 PM #
The article indicates that it swivels. I don't understand what this argument is about . . .

Jon C. Zaring
RE: Unless it swivels...
N473 @ 10/5/2002 12:57:13 PM #
Look at this picture:

They designed the cam to point at the user. How usefull is that?


RE: Unless it swivels...
msmasitti @ 10/5/2002 6:46:31 PM #
I like to take pictures of myself. j/k

That is one bad downfall.

O/T Mod

RE: Unless it swivels...
Altema @ 10/5/2002 9:43:26 PM #
I thought about this at first, then checked the website for more details. It does not show in the pic, but the head does swivel so you can take shots of yourself, or swivel it around so the lens is facing the back of the handheld to take shots of someone else while you use the screen for a viewfinder.

RE: Unless it swivels...
Altema @ 10/5/2002 9:52:59 PM #
PS to the last post: "The swivel lens allows you to easily capture both self-portrait and traditional forward-facing photos."

Comparing to the PalmPix...

orb2069 @ 10/6/2002 12:03:47 PM #
The resolution/performance is no better than the early PalmPix, and actually WORSE than some of the later models that were 800x600.

But I think using the SD slot is brighter than a UC sled - One of the things that I think stopped Kodak from making them was having to re-build the device every time Palm decided to switch connectors/shells on them.

Hopefully the SDIO interface will transfer faster than Serial.

I bought a III PalmPix when they were being closed out at $20. At that price it's kind of neat. At $100, I'd be kind of upset.

What I'd find interesting is a Palm that supports the USB-to-go (Peer to peer) interface, on a hardware level.

SD Device -vs- Memory

STNE @ 10/7/2002 12:47:20 PM #
OK, so there has been talk about not being able to store very many photo's because of memory storage space. If that is of concern come see us at STNE Corporatin for a memory upgrade. I think we have a memory upgrade for almost every Palm OS device with an SD card slot. Right now if it has 8mb we can take it to 16mb, and in the VERY near future we will be offering a 32mb Solution. Right now my test m505 has 16MB of Ram, and a 16MB internal ram disk, and an open SD Slot. So, if memory is what is keeping you from trying out one of these, give us a visit.


STNE Corporation

PDA Upgrades for All(almost all) PALM OS Devices.



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