Comments on: Sony Ericsson Denies PalmSource Talks

I swear the commenting system on PIC is based on the time you hit "Reply" on the article and not "Post comment" on the comment authoring screen.

I've seen posts appear out of order before. One day, I'm going to wait until a story is posted, hit reply and wait half a day. Then I'll post the annoying "first post" post and shoot to the top. If I'm wrong, I'll look like an idiot.

...

Upon further inspection, I may be right. The comment time is embedded on the authoring screen, allowing for my loophole:

Some clever HTML skills may allow me to first post this thread. =)

-- Fammy

The reason Palm is talking up Smartphones in Europe is that over here Smartphones are cheaper than the equivalent Handheld without the phone because of contract subsidies. Why spend £400 on a Palm when you can get a symbian device with phone for £200?

The Treo 600 coming in so cheap is a good move by Palm/Handspring. I am over the moon with mine, and the great software package that Orange and Handspring have included. The only downside to my Treo is that it won't play Master Thief .. even the version that is supposed to work on the Treo 600. But I am sure the engine will be fixed soon ... hint ... hint.

As for Sony doing a PalmOS phone, I would snap it up, but a Clie clamshell phone would be so much cheaper than a non phone version that Sony may eat into their own PDA market. There are marketing as well as practical reasons why smartphones are still behind the curve compared to PalmOS stand alones. Why do you think Microsoft has completely different versions of its OS?

Edward Green
--
http://www.khite.co.uk

Please leave my name out of your posts. It does not flatter me. It annoys me.

Works for cars. The Osborne Computer was a high flying company which had a top selling PC, so they figured they could do the same. They were bankrupt within the year.

So now, all successful tech companies are very careful in controlling how they release information about future products in order to manage cash flow.

I have used the Nokia 3650 in UK. It has quite possibly one of the worst user interfaces I have seen on a device. When Nagel says he doesn't view Symbian as a serious competitor I completely agree - at least as a threat to the existing Palm user base. The only threat might be loosing share to new users who have never used a Palm OS handheld (users coming from a cel phone with an even worse interface than the 3650). Even if PalmSource viewed that as a threat, what incentive would they have to say so?

Prior to using the Nokia 3650, I spent a lot of time with the Treo 600. It truly is a brilliant design. It destroys the Nokia 3650 more than 10-fold in terms of usability. There are a lot of really subtle things that you don't notice on the Treo until you use something else.

Some examples:

-Putting in an SD/MMC card to store pictures:
On Treo: insert card into top of device
On 3650: Remove back cover, remove battery, install card with annoying bracket clip, replace cover and battery, power on and wait for phone reg.

-Setting phone to Vibrate
On Treo: flip switch on top of phone
On 3650: go into menu, go several levels deep, select silent profile (assuming this exists), exit menu

These are just two examples of many.

Question: What devices are using the Palm OS Telephony API? Tungsten-W? I don't think Treo Telephony API is the standard Palm OS Telephony API.

This statement is bang on, and something many armchair analysts miss when they are pushing their own biases. Sure, the P800 and Treo 600 are both convergent devices, but they are coming from different directions, and still target different markets, despite the fact that their feature sets are becoming similar.

~ "Don't be too proud of this technological terror you've constructed." - DV ~

I've been told otherwise. We'll see soon enough. And always remember your NDAs.

Sony Ericsson and Nokia will continue to pursue the Symbian OS; the latest Nokia phone 6600 is in fact a Symbian 7.0 phone; the same operating system that the P800 (sic) will run on. the reality is that PalmOS was not built for phone use. the P900 is a dream compared to the P800; as one of the lucky ones to actually have had the ability to hold one of those phones.

The P900 is a slick piece of work (looks like the toothpick stylus design was borrowed from a CLIE, though...) but Symbian has been slow to take off in the US for a number of reasons. Even if/when the P900 (and the new chunky clamshell Z600) make it to the US, I doubt Sony Ericsson will be as well received as in Euroland.

the Handspring Treo 600 required just over one year to tweak/hack to the OS5 code base to get an acceptable 'phone environment' - i have a Treo 600 and, i am quite surprised at how well it fits together. however, it would have really made a statement with 320x320 and built in bluetooth.

The Treo 600 is quite impressive. Now that Handspring has laid the foundation, Palm OS's future in phones is irrefutable. While I don't see much need for 320 x 320 in it, I agree they should have squeezed in Bluetooth (to allow for wireless headsets). Then again, Bluetoothless is dead (in the US and therefore, the universe).

PalmSource's biggest problem is that they think the rest of the world is like the USA.

That's an American trait that almost killed the US auto industry as well.

Nokia and Sony Ericsson rule the telecommunications market; each with their own special touches. Nokia is going for the mass market with their smartphones; Sony Ericsson is pushing the enterprise market; however, have a very good competitive edge with the mass market phones by shipping with mophun(tm) - a virtual machine focused on gaming (also, swedish design).

While Mophun may eventually take off, why bother with yet another platform when we already have a mature Palm OS library of games?

Sometimes the truth just isn't pretty™

lets clarify this, i regularly use the following mobile phones:

- Palm Tungsten|W (Palm)
- Treo 600 (Palm)
- Nokia 3650 (Symbian)
- Sony Ericsson P800 (Symbian)
- Sony Ericsson T200 (proprietary)
- Sony Ericsson T66 (proprietary)

depending on how much battery life i have in each device; i also have two mobile phone numbers (work + personal). do you know what my favourite phone is? the T66 and T200 :) they are phones.. just phones.. what else would i want a phone for?

GPRS over the P800 and Treo 600 is very nice. my Nokia 3650 just refuses to work over GPRS - i have to admit that the Treo 600 set itself up automatically; a definate plus.

in addition, for the record, i might as well justify why i have such opinions about 'handheld' devices in general - mainly because i have a serious stash of devices. you can see for yourself here:

http://www.ardiri.com/pdas.jpg

and, i can honestly tell you, in the five years i have owned a handheld device (first was Palm III) - i have NEVER used it to store phone numbers, addresses etc etc. i am a post-it note guy, and, rely on my laptop for everything i do. :)

---
Aaron Ardiri
PalmOS Certified Developer
aaron_ardiri@mobilewizardry.com
http://www.mobilewizardry.com/members/aaron_ardiri.php

it comes down to what you want to use the device for; the clie nr70 was obviously not the device you should have chosen; as, it doesn't target what you want from the handheld

> No multi-tasking and memort card management (applications) just
> did not seem consistent.

multi-tasking is a big no-no, you know, zen of palm.

as for card management; it can be consistent - however, the manner in which developers have implemented card support has been sporatic. the developer community hasnät been consistent; maybe too early to market? lack of support from the operating system providers?

> Now I use these are examples of the lack of maturity of Palm.

i can think of many use-cases where palm would be better than other handheld operating systems; especially when you want single tasking :)

> Also, some apps were not designed for the Clie NR70's screen etc.
> Now have things changed with Palm 5?

developer issue - not device. OS5 introduced a standard 'user interface' library; and, its changing once again to handle the virtual grafitti/slider mechanisms; its become a serious nightmare for developers; many have tons and tons of code just for Sony, Handera, Palm, and Tapwave.

> And why has it taken Palm so long to design an OS with
> communications built-in.

communications has been there for a while - palmos 3.0 introduced infrared, bluetooth came later; and, there is now even 802.11b in the Palm devices :)

your definition of communications is different - you want SMS/email etc; well, Palm isn't an operating system designed for that. its like trying to unscrew a screw in the wall with a hammer.

---
Aaron Ardiri
PalmOS Certified Developer
aaron_ardiri@mobilewizardry.com
http://www.mobilewizardry.com/members/aaron_ardiri.php

please note SE sold over 1 million P800s. This is big business that even Palm would difficulty in matching!

Jah

Jah

I can't confirm those figures, but not many of those P800s were sold in the US. (The P900 may do better - it's a better design and pushes what Symbian can do to the limit, with a slick GUI and sleeker form. Port Palm OS to the P900 and Sony Ericsson will crush Nokia overnight.)

If Palm wanted to jumpstart sales of the Treo 600 they should have priced it much more competitively in the US. At $600 for the phone ($500 with a one year contract), it will be a hard sell compared to "free" phones and Sony Ericsson's relatively inexpensive Symbian lineup. The only people that will be buying in for that price will be previous Palm owners desperate to avoid carrying two separate devices. That's a pretty small market. Once these experienced customers have all rushed out and upgraded (most likely within the next two months, once cell phone number portability has arrived in the US) who are the carriers expecting will be paying those prices for the Treo 600? It will be a hard sell to the average buyer that is typically more impressed with small size and slick design than with "featuritis". Unless they drop prices to a more reasonable level (~$300), we'll all be hearing carriers complaining next spring about how the Treo 600 was such a "flop".

After seeing the price structure of Sprint this month, I'm going to wait for AT&T's version of the Treo 600. Lighter, better battery life (supposedly), bundled email and SMS apps, and hopefully more intelligent pricing than Sprint.

Sprint: Can you hear me now? Click.

Sometimes the truth just isn't pretty™

http://www.mobile-review.com/review/sonyericsson-p900-en.shtml

http://mobitopia.com/20031003.html#003946

http://www.mobileburn.com/gallery.jsp?Id=408

http://81.91.70.85/mobilbpit/forum/index.php?act=ST&f=19&t=5195

Sometimes the truth just isn't pretty™

1. It took at least 2 years for Palm to sell the cheaper Zire to reach 1 million units

2. The SE 800 (and now the P900) is sold by ALL networks not just Orange.

Can't see the Treo making the same impact as the forthcoming P900 unless Palm sell SIM free and on other networks. Palm are not a mobile phone company - they are still learning. Palm are following and Nokia and SE are leading.

Jah

Palm and US carriers must have convincing research showing that Americans would rather pay $500 for a Palm PDA-phone than get a Symbian smartphone for free.

Palm has been fortunate up until now that Symbian has been a dud in the US because of problems with the various carriers. From what I've seen in the past few months, these problems are being sorted out and Symbian may win out if only because they're on most phones by default. Palm + Co. need to sacrifice short term per-phone profits in order to get the market share the platform needs to establish itself against Symbian.

Sometimes the truth just isn't pretty™

That's quite amazing. When the Treo 600 is released in Canada, it will most likely be the MOST expensive Palm/PPC on the market, even with a contract. Only the Sony UX50 would be more, probably. Something like $700-$800 CAD. The Sony Ericsson P800 is $999.

The Treo 600 is probably actually worth the money if you're a power user, but I doubt that many casual users will be biting at that price. It will be a shame to see unrealistic pricing kill off a great device.

Sometimes the truth just isn't pretty™

Which is better: P900 with Symbian OS + Symbian's app library, or same phone with Palm OS (smartphone Edition) and Palm's app library?

Would it suddenly stop working because SE went with PalmOS?

Not suddenly, but they will migrate from Symbian within a generation or two of phones and use this as a selling point over Nokia.

Sometimes the truth just isn't pretty™

ska's vocabulary is getting larger. Thesuri?

you know mike, i dont know how to really interpret you. first, you get all upset if someone uses your name in one of their posts; (like, so what). people write my name more than yours..

and, whats with this SKA junk? maybe i missed something - but, every time he has made a post some moron has had to say some useless expression. give the guy a break, at least he posts. so what if he spells wrong. i dont captilize my 'i's either - sue me?

---
Aaron Ardiri
PalmOS Certified Developer
aaron_ardiri@mobilewizardry.com
http://www.mobilewizardry.com/members/aaron_ardiri.php

(PS. RTFA)

U ® 7h3 3l33t h4x0r. W3 Þh33r u.

Sometimes the truth just isn't pretty™

then you and me can slug it off, you can try to defend your great POS with all mike's opinion (tm) you can muster. Hell you can even print more front page BS about why you won't by PPC because your stylus keep prodding the slider bar. (or was tht other BS. lol...)

You can't even argue coherently, and you scream at me? get out of here.

The article wasn't particularly insightful. All it's saying is if the PDA doesn't evolve, it will die.

They also won't say cellphones increase the risk of brain tumors...

(Ooh, have I unleashed a backlash here!)

Sony... a monopoly? hmm... thats a tough statement, considering the fact that they were beaten by Panasonic in terms of sales last year.

Sony itself has acknowledged its products as "premium" priced, because of the design factor, and because of their excellent R&D facility. It is no secret that Sony's R&D is among the best in the world, and thats why they are charging for it.

IMHO, comparing Sony to Microsoft is illogical and rather childish. Microsoft was a monopoly(Windows Platform) and it abused this by shipping IE with Windows, then media player, thus abusing its monopoly. Being a monopoly is not wrong. Abusing it is. Please point out where Sony is abusing its monopoly of any product(if it has one in the first place)

So, if I get you right, using your market position to force adoption of other technology is an abuse of monopoly power?

Please point out where Sony is abusing its monopoly of any product(if it has one in the first place)

You mean, say, like changing their PDA connectors and bases every few releases, in order to 'stick it' to third-party device developers and advance sales of their own peripherals?

Or do you mean all the laptops, mice, photo frames, cameras, PDAs and camcorders that are available from Sony with only a Memory Stick slot?

Or do you mean trying to use their music division to support cramming ATRAC copy protection down consumers' throats?

The list could go on for weeks - You can attempt to weasel out of this by stating that 'Sony dosen't have a monopoly' - But that's cheap legalities, and while they may not be TECHNICALLY in violation, there is more than enough similarity in behavior to make comparisons between Microsoft and Sony not only reasonable, but unflattering as well.

Monopoly or not, it's still taking advantage of your customers, and it's still very nasty business practice.

Bingo. You got it right there.

>>You mean, say, like changing their PDA connectors and
>>bases every few releases, in order to 'stick it' to
>>third-party device developers and advance sales of
>>their own peripherals?
Actually, if you noticed, each Product Family has a different connector. All the UX's use the same connectors, and all the NX's use the same connectors etc... Seriously, I wonder where you got your definition of monopoly from. Even if they do change it, its usually compatible with a slew of accessories they release. Ok... so Third Party Accessories aren't that popular with the Sony Devices, thats because sony makes so many of their own. Seriously, if you find it too expensive, DONT BUY IT. As simple as that. Stop whining about their monopolistic tactics.

>>Or do you mean all the laptops, mice, photo frames, >>cameras, PDAs and camcorders that are available from >>Sony with only a Memory Stick slot?
If you has been a bit more aware, you would find a Compact Flash slot on the New Sony Cybershot DSC 828. There goes your trend. Even if they do use only the Memory Stick slot, I dont see anything wrong with that. You dont like Sony, go get something else. And about MemStick slots on the laptops... its a matter of convienience. Most laptops dont ship with inbuilt card readers, Mem Stick or otherwise. The Memory Stick was from the beginning meant to facilitate interoperability between sony products. No one cried that it wasn't used on a palm, or that Sony didn't use the SD Format. Think about it... the Memory Stick came first, and Sony had inversted so much in it that moving to the SD Format after it was released would have been detrimental to their own products released on the Memory Stick Format

>>Or do you mean trying to use their music division to
>>support cramming ATRAC copy protection down >>consumers' throats?

If you noticed, there is no "standard" for music. MP3 is not copy protected, and no one ships music in MP3 format anymore, because its a dying one. ATRAC3, AAC, etc are used by different companies, and they each have a means of protection. I dont see you point here at all.

Let's get something straight here. The first color hires CLIE to come to the US had MP3-playing built-in. This unit was first introed in Japan and only allowed ATRAC there (MP3 was later a free upgrade download). This is hardly shoving their system down people's throats!

Eh. That's all part of "vertical integration." But I don't see Sony pushing a video standard for, say, Spiderman on software. (That's Microsoft's job!)

MiniDisc has its own stable of fans, and you risk upsetting a hornet's nest here. I'll just say that MD is not my thing, regardless of ATRAC, and I'd rather have an iPod-like device (which judging from how many people I see on the street *carrying* iPods, now seems to be the consensus).

Tangetially, it is interesting to note that several RCA "MP3 players" actually convert music into a proprietary file format. Be afraid!

Stumbling block: NO huge base of software like PalmOS.

QuickOffice hsa now been released for UIQ/P900/P800. Also Agendus has been ported for UIQ. Others will follow and very soon there will be good coverage on the s/w front for Symbian. Remember UIQ has only been with us for about a year and we are seeing lots of s/w already. Also, Pocketop has a driver for the P800/P900. For me, an ex-Plam user, I don't see much difference now for the s/w that I use. Opera is much better than Palm web browsers.

Jah

From a Palm perspective, I was looking into a similar input method for the Kyocera phones 7135, but after looking into Tegic's patent for T9 (Tegic - now owned by AOL Time Warner Bugs Bunny International Incorporated) decided the headaches would not be worth the effort.

BTW - Rather than the personal sledging that has occurred elsewhere in this thread, this discussion almost shows some sort of happy concensus :)

~ "Don't be too proud of this technological terror you've constructed." - DV ~

maybe its time you became familiar with palm and how you developer for it. Symbian (UIQ) has got MAME as well! it just doesn't exist on Palm yet. and, there is a HUGE reason for this; the operating system is still bound by its limitations that existed back with PalmOS 1.0. many of these limitations will go away with OS6.

its the same reason why Doom was ported to PPC, Symbian - and, not Palm :) PalmOS is a very 'unique' operating system with a fairly small learning curve if you are doing things from scratch - but, if your porting? oh boy..

> Look, most people who already have an investment in PalmOS software simply
> are *not* going to pony up for Symbian versions of the same thing.
> That's just a waste of money.

tell me exactly why it is a waste of money? Symbian sells pretty darm well over in europe; or, are you just referring to the USA market as your analysis basis? the thing is, it doesn't take much work to convert your application to Symbian. Symbian versions sell much more than Smartphone versions - thats something we have seen. and, within europe, we sell just as many symbian versions of software than we do palm. scary.. yes, reality... yes.

> I know PalmOS, I know the software I use, and I like them just fine.
> Symbian just can't match it -- even if *every* damned PalmOS program
> was ported to Symbian, it'd still be on a PHONE, for God's sake!

oh.. now you see the whole argument.. you want a PDA.. not a PHONE - so, stay with palm. people want a PHONE, not a PDA.. and, they will get Symbian devices.. it all depends on what you want from the unit. i said this before and i will say it again.

> And, hey, are there keyboards to attach to those Symbian phones?

yes, a number of keyboards exist, and, many in development.

what would be really cool is that keyboard developers dont use connectors; but, bluetooth or 802.11b like this keyboard does:

http://www.infosync.no/news/2002/n/2012.html

---
Aaron Ardiri
PalmOS Certified Developer
aaron_ardiri@mobilewizardry.com
http://www.mobilewizardry.com/members/aaron_ardiri.php

Stumbling block: NO huge base of software like PalmOS.

The stylus isn't actually that big, but it's ok considering the size of the phone.

Remember, approximately 90% of Palm apps are detritus. If Symbian comes out with 100 high quality apps covering the major app categories, they'll be able to do most of the things that most people are looking for.

QuickOffice hsa now been released for UIQ/P900/P800. Also Agendus has been ported for UIQ. Others will follow and very soon there will be good coverage on the s/w front for Symbian. Remember UIQ has only been with us for about a year and we are seeing lots of s/w already. Also, Pocketop has a driver for the P800/P900. For me, an ex-Plam user, I don't see much difference now for the s/w that I use. Opera is much better than Palm web browsers.

Jah

This is precisely why Palm needs to stop acting so blasé about Symbian and kill it before it gets a foothold in the USA. Symbian may do to Palm what PPC has been unable to achieve. If Symbian is already covering the things that some experienced Palm users want, will anything differentiate the two platforms in the near future? Port a few titles like DateBk 5, HandyShopper, Ultrasoft Money and DiddleBug to Symbian and even I - after six years of using Palms - would take a serious look at switching (if the hardware and the price is right). New users unfamiliar with Palm's software will be even easier to get on board the Symbian train. Right now, Palm has an overwhelming advantage called the Palm OS software library. But this is an advantage obvious only to that small subset of people already familiar with Palm OS. Palm should be out hammering this message home every chance they get. Before that advantage evaporates faster than the vapors of an SDIO card/driver.

Annual cell phone sales are approximately 400 million, while PDA sales are approximately 10 million units/year. Simple math says there's a lot more money available to be made if you're selling phones than PDAs - whether you're a hardware or a software company. Give Nokia/Symbian another two year's worth of unopposed OS revisions and software catalog expansion and you can potentially kiss Palm goodbye. Anyone that's used a Treo 600 and P800/900 can understand why these devices can either already or very soon obviate the need for stand alone PDAs for most (not all) users. And if Palm can't compete in phones, they won't have any market at all once the stand alone PDA market dries up.


God Almighty, what the fek are they waiting for with Opera?

You know what the conspiracy theorists are saying...

Look, most people who already have an investment in PalmOS software simply are *not* going to pony up for Symbian versions of the same thing. That's just a waste of money, no matter how huge a discount the Symbian phone might currently have versus the Treo 600. People will wait for a cheaper PalmOS phone.

- The vast majority of cell phone buyers don't have Palms, so they don't know/don't care about Palm software. Others that have used Palms may find making the switch pretty easy if a) there's a "killer app" - like Opera - only available on Symbian; b) many of their favorite Palm apps are available (at a discount) for Symbian, c) the hardware running Symbian is free/almost free; d) the Symbian hardware designs are slick/"cool".

I know PalmOS, I know the software I use, and I like them just fine. Symbian just can't match it -- even if *every* damned PalmOS program was ported to Symbian, it'd still be on a PHONE, for God's sake! I want a *PDA*.

While others will agree with you, this will probably soon be the minority opinion. At least you will be able to buy the new CLIE UX model next year if you still want a stand alone PDA. (I'm assuming you will eventually stop playing with every new model for hours in the stores and finally put down real some cash to replace that Commodore Vic 20 you're using...)

Sometimes the truth just isn't pretty™

>>>its the same reason why Doom was ported to PPC, Symbian - and, not Palm :) PalmOS is a very 'unique' operating system with a fairly small learning curve if you are doing things from scratch - but, if your porting? oh boy..

Ahhhh! Thanks for that info. I did not know. I guess OS6 will bring all sorts of goodies from other platforms. At least I hope so...

>>>tell me exactly why it is a waste of money? Symbian sells pretty darm well over in europe; or, are you just referring to the USA market as your analysis basis?

Of course my view is UScentric. Everytone touts Symbian now, but it was a laughing stock for years. And how the hell the Brits missed putting EPOC in a Palm-like form factor is just beyond bizarre.

>>>the thing is, it doesn't take much work to convert your application to Symbian. Symbian versions sell much more than Smartphone versions - thats something we have seen. and, within europe, we sell just as many symbian versions of software than we do palm. scary.. yes, reality... yes.

Is there a Master List of Symbian (smartphone) software? Or must I, groan, search through Handango?

And TUT, I do not have a VIC 20. I long ago upgraded to a C64. Damn, that EasyScript is sweet...

PSION was - and in some ways still is - ahead of its time. A PSION in a Palm III form factor should have been a huge success. I was thinking about buying one of the later PSION models, but the new CLIE UX series completely destroys PSION in terms of the all-important (for me) form factor. I can see myself actually carrying around a UX-50, but the PSION keyboards made them a bit too bulky.

And TUT, I do not have a VIC 20. I long ago upgraded to a C64.

Congratulations. But it must be a pain having to constantly whip out your 14 inch.. TV whenever you need to look something up.

Sometimes the truth just isn't pretty™

Strength:
-Brand recognition
-Price (SE and Nokia will chew up anybody in phone business)
-marketing/retail channel

<3 <3 <3 Ska