Comments on: Pretec Demonstrates 2GB MMC Card
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RE: Use with Palm handhelds
There are three main differences:
1) DRM, SD (Secure Digital) includes some digital rights management stuff in it so you can limit the ability to copy it. As far as I know this has only been implimented in a few devices.
2) Speed, The SD spec far exceeded the MMC spec, but since then the MMC specs have chanced, that has enabled companies like Pretec to come out with faster MMC cards.
3) IO, The SD spec introduced SDIO, the ability to use an SD slot for devices/periferals. This has allowed the Bluetooth SD, Wifi SD, GPS SD, SD cameras, and other things to come out. MMC was limited strictly to file storage.
Hope that helps...
Peace,
-Bartman007
RE: Use with Palm handhelds
Wonder if we can kick our T3 SD/MMC slots back up to full speed with these?
RE: Use with Palm handhelds
Look at the table on this page...
http://www.tomsnetworking.com/Sections-article82.php
(yes, it's the same article about the "dirty little secret on WiFi PDAs")
RE: Use with Palm handhelds
Price = $1000???????????????????????????
CompactFlash still makes SD/MMC look like a joke.
Freedom of speech, baby. Gotta love it,
RE: Price = $1000???????????????????????????
CompactFlash card = 6192 mm^3
MMC = 1536 mm^3
A CF card is FOUR TIMES bigger than an MMC card. So they can use cheaper, bigger components.
Also, a CF card has 50 connectors. An MMC card gets away with 9.
Saying CF is better than MMC is like saying your Mack truck is better than my bike. Maybe your truck can carry more stuff, but I can park places you can't.
RE: Price = $1000???????????????????????????
Regardless, it doesn't change the foundation of my post, or any of my points.
RE: Price = $1000???????????????????????????
-Bosco
NX80v + Wifi + BT + T616
RE: Price = $1000???????????????????????????
Finally. An intelligent post on Palminfocenter. It's amazing how many people swallowed the SD manufacturers' BS. Hook, line and sinker. Any device the size of a PDA can easily use CompactFlash. Specing SD instead of CF amounts to choosing form over function.
Freedom of speech, baby. Gotta love it,
RE: Price = $1000???????????????????????????
Better than MS Pro?
RE: Price = $1000???????????????????????????
How about everyone stop spreading BS about the (dubious) merits of using SD/MMC in PDAs? Now. The original PalmOS PDA with a CF slot was the TRGpro (which I still use regularly). It was approximately 1 mm (i.e. a few sheets of paper) thicker than the Palm III series devices it was based on. Accepting that MASSIVE 1 mm penalty has allowed TRGpro users to have access to inexpensive, fast, large capacity storage cards, CF LAN cards, CF modems, etc.
"SD is 4656 mm³ smaller than CF!" Sounds like the kind of FUD spread by the sleazy marketing department of the SD consortium (mafia?). To put this in its proper perspective, a CF card is 43 mm long x 32 mm wide x 4 mm thick. 4 mm thick! Exactly how much bulk do you think a 4 mm thick postage stamp sized card adds? Remember: 1 cc = 1 mL = 1000mm³!
To turn your specious post on its ear: A TRGpro is around 181621 mm³ = or almost 30 times larger than the CF card. Suddenly that CF card doesn't seem so big now...
Another lie routinely posted by the uninformed is that CF supposedly needs massive amounts of power to work.
Ask yourself why most high end digital cameras come with CompactFlash slots while the entry level cameras have SD. Sophisticated users demand the superior fuunctionality offered by CF. It's too bad TRG/HandEra got killed off by Palm. They were the only manufacturer with the intelligence to design PDAs with ultimate functionality in mind.
You like me! You really like me!
RE: Price = $1000???????????????????????????
And yes, the difference may be "less than 5 cm^3". Now, the T3 is about 70 cm^3, so the CF without connector et al. would be about 15% of the size. That's quite a lot, isn't it?
I personally would prefer having that space being filled with extra battery, for example. SD is quite OK for me.
But don't let that stop your ranting, Facey.
RE: Price = $1000???????????????????????????
Bosco, although I've never seen a 2215 in action, I sincerely doubt you can fit a CFII slot into my T|E without sacrificing its sleekness significantly.
A proud member of the anti-Ska faction!
Oops
Still, the point remains...
RE: Price = $1000???????????????????????????
Thanks, robrecht
RE: Price = $1000???????????????????????????
You have to make allowances. It's the weekend. Temps are on staff at his mental institution and they never give him his meds then. Stand by for another weekend of hypergraphia from that psychopath.
More lies about pathetic SD/MMC cards. Wake up, people!
Exactly. Palm engineers should know that CompactFlash cards are only 0.005237 hand³. The cards are also just 0.0000.1392 light year³. Incredibly tiny.
SD is in fact much smaller than the "postage stamp size" CF. That's one hell of a postage stamp. I don't know how many stamps you've seen lately but even an SD card is larger than your average stamp. In cameras, it's not that the high end use CF and the low end use SD, the card chosen depends on size, and Canon 1D or Nikon D2H's are professional D-SLR cameras which are of course large enough for the larger CF format.
Wrong. CF is as small as some postage stamps and SD is about the size of a typical postage stamp. Have you even ever seen an SD card? In cameras, high end users demand performance (fast read/write times and large storage capabilities). These demands mean CompactFlash is the obvious choice over SD (or the even-more-pathetic MMC). The small (non-SLR) high end Olympus, Nikon, etc. cameras use CF cards because it's a superior format.
Bosco, although I've never seen a 2215 in action, I sincerely doubt you can fit a CFII slot into my T|E without sacrificing its sleekness significantly.
You are wrong.
A proud member of the anti-Ska faction!
ska/hoplites/Mike Cane/purpleX may be annoying, but at least he posts an "interesting" opinion. Deranged, but interesting. Palminfocenter is dying because they don't have more people like ska/hoplites/Mike Cane/purpleX to keep discussions going. I have a feeling ska will be making a return VERY SOON NOW. Stay tuned.
You like me! You really like me!
RE: Price = $1000????
similar to what another poster alr mentioned. Hi-end digi-cams used by professionals aren't typically pocket sized. They're much bigger packed with features that wouldn't make it in a smaller packages.
It seems to me that putting CF on a PDA (in my case, a Z71) would be quite a squeeze. There's alr 5 items at the top: SDIO/MMC slot, IR window, headphone jack, stylus well, and power button. You could keep all that and increase the thickness 2fold, or relocate stuff like the IR window to the side, but the whole ergonomics of it will be screwy. And then there Are those pocket sized digi-cams out there. My sister's got a 3.2MP digi-cam that's somewhat smaller than my Z71. A CF card inserted into that would take up about 1/3 of the volume of the camera. I doubt it's a professional camera, most likely mid-ranged, but at any rate, a CF card is sure NOT going to go in there if it had a CF slot.
==========
Also, I'm guessing that Palm PDA users (assuming that there won't be any incompatibilities nor drivers not yet out) won't be able take advantage of the transfer rate increase anyways, as the SDIO slot on current POS models can't exceed that read/write speed? Perhaps only on other supported devices like digi-cams or USB 2.0 card readers?
[signature0]the secret to enjoying your job is to have a hobby that's even worse[/signature0]
[signature1]My PDAs: Visor --> Visor Neo (blue) --> Zire 71.... so ends the "marathon", for now[/signature1]
RE: Price = $1000???????????????????????????
Now with tiny devices like some MP3 players, cellphones and mini digital cameras SD may have a place. If size is the main concern, the limitations of SD may be acceptable.
Put another way: In a laptop, would you want SD or CF/PCMCIA? Unless a device is VERY small, SD is an overpriced, restricted option.
People need to wake up and understand that the new formats are introduced primarily so that memory chip manufacturers can gouge consumers with high prices. (Newer = better, right?)
You like me! You really like me!
TRG/HandEra = the best PDA designs ever produced.
That's so true. How such a small company had so many good engineers is simply astounding. Must be the influence of the local university. I've said it many times before but had Palm simply contracted TRG/HandEra (and it'd brilliant employees like Mike Waldron) to design the guts of Palm's PDAs and used the design firn that came up with the Vx shape, they wouldn't be in their current death spiral.
Imagine a Vx black metallic case (like the old rebadged IBM models) with a high end Sony color screen and CompactFlash expansion. Functional, sleek, close to perfection. It would have sold by the boatload to professionals, students, salespeople... everyone. Instead we got the m505 and similar crap. And Palm's quality control/construction leaves a LOT to be desired these days. I guess it's too late now, but it would have been funny to see HandEra get a PPC license and put out a killer PPC device!
My 4 year old TRGpro is still a better PDA than anything Palm is now selling. You can still find them on eBay and they make a great PDA if you don't need color.
You like me! You really like me!
FFFF's Postulates
Because lack of CF in any device is part of the same conspiration that killed JFK, abduced Elvis, robs our money by not letting the fridge's light to go off, and sometimes censors you here. That's it?
Ok. Understood. Next postulate?
RE: Price = $1000???????????????????????????
And Sphincterface, it's the PERFECT PDA for you. Just like you, it's out of date, ugly, and has two holes at the top of it (trepanning took its toll on you... but now at least the meds can just be SQUIRTED directly onto what's left of your brain...).
RE: Price = $1000?
What a stupid comparison. What would you want in a desktop computer, a PCI card or SD?
Unless a device is VERY small, SD is an overpriced, restricted option.
To me, a T3 certainly looks like small enough to benefit from going SD instead of CF.
RE: Price = $1000???????????????????????????
TRG Pro: Definetly way ahead of it's time. The only reason they are not everywhere is their planned killer device with features galore and color screen was ugly. Plus, it was un-attactive and did not look good in addition to being ugly.
CF vs SD: CF is one of those designs that is solid and functional, and has a distinct pricing and peripherial advantage. It would be good for compatibility if everything had CF. However, you can't fit CF in the HP 1940 or the T3. You also can't fit 4 CF cards in your wallet. Well, you COULD, but people would think you are rich judging by the bulging wallet, or they would think that your diaper is bunched up. I guess if you want the same card to fit everything, you go with the smaller, then include the larger card with the devices that will accomodate the extra space. Interestingly enough the market is already going this way; the 2215 is the only iPaq with CF.
CompactFlash vs. SD/MMC ----> (CF wins in a landslide...)
The TRGpro is STILL ahead of its time. The only PalmOS device with better functionality is the hideous HandEra 330. Had HandEra licensed a Sony 320 x 480 color screen two years ago and released a color version of the 330 in a plain black case (like the Palm IIIxe) they would have sold well. In fact, they could have done well from sales to medical groups alone.
CF vs SD: CF is one of those designs that is solid and functional, and has a distinct pricing and peripherial advantage. It would be good for compatibility if everything had CF. However, you can't fit CF in the HP 1940 or the T3. You also can't fit 4 CF cards in your wallet. Well, you COULD, but people would think you are rich judging by the bulging wallet, or they would think that your diaper is bunched up. I guess if you want the same card to fit everything, you go with the smaller, then include the larger card with the devices that will accomodate the extra space. Interestingly enough the market is already going this way; the 2215 is the only iPaq with CF.
Most PDAs that take SD cards could also fit CF cards if properly designed. The format wars are just heating up. Manufacturers are going to start pushing xD as a memory format. These cards are tiny and if throughput is adequate would make even better memory cards for small PDAs than SD - especially given the non-existence of SDIO. SD was too small for SDIO peripherals to be produced inexpensively and now they are finally trickling onto the market they're already obsolete bacause new PDAs have those features built-in.
(This will be the final post from ;-(( unless the site owner un-deletes my account. It's your call, Ryan - it's your site to run as you choose, so looks like you can censor anyone you choose to.
Freedom of speech, baby. Gotta love it!
Facey, postulates and future prediction
So, believing you, the story so far is: you knew 2 months ago that Palm* was going to publish before summer OS 5 drivers for their Bluetooth SD card. You say now that those drivers are ready and working (so of course you were right), and that I could check it with a simple 30 seconds search; but, strangely, even being that widely known, "they" don't want to publish the drivers, and that I should talk to Mr. Combee or Mr. Mace, though they won't want to talk about them, presumably because of some freemasonic NDAs.
Right?
So I must now choose between two options: either believe you, or assume that you are as full of sh*t as you always are, have been, and will ever be.
Try to guess what my choice will be, Facey. I did my longer-than-30 seconds search, and finally this link helped me to make my mind. Hint: it's a link from someone related to the subject, and it's old news.
http://makeashorterlink.com/?L34F51C78
You can't even try to have the credibility, the respectability, the responsability of correcting a too-obvious stupid thing you said?
Well, the most surprising thing is that you still manage to surprise me.
You are worthless even as dog food.
Now, for the postulates and future prediction...
Most PDAs that take SD cards could also fit CF cards if properly designed.
...if properly designed to accomodate the bulk of a CF, of course. There is always some stupid electronics that we can live without to put there instead the air-filled CF slot.
Manufacturers are going to start pushing xD as a memory format.
Even the manufacturers on the SD consortium. Everybody will follow Olympia and Fujifilm and.....?
they're already obsolete bacause new PDAs have those features built-in.
And that's why owners of older PDAs will never buy them.
It isn't even funny any more. :P
RE: Price = $1000???????????????????????????
Pity it ended on an intelligent post.
Going back to the MMC vs SD vs xD vs CF vs MS debate ...
They each have their use regardless of the $$$ involved. MMC evolved into SD, and while SD was busy trying to figure out that SDIO is too hard to achieve cost effectively, the MMC folks jumped them as memory provider. When the dust settles will there be winner? Probably two winners - one from an IO perspective, and one from a memory. Predict xD will gain greater adoption in Digital Camera, and flow down to PDA due to size - but purely for external storage.
Besides CF, there is no real viable IO expansion option - the packaging is just too small and fragile ... and as Icon Face rightly pointed out, capabilities requiring those devices are being integrated into current devices.
What I would like to see is a CF card with a decent WiFi/Cellular interface that has an onboard socket for a xD card that snaps in something like a SIM card on a GSM cellphone.
~ "Don't be too proud of this technological terror you've constructed." - DV ~
Facey, I still read you. Anyway...
Either your accounts here have never been deleted before (which you say they have, and I say they should), or they have indeed been deleted and you have had no problem on coming back to fill again every thread with your crap, so ...just tell us about the drivers, my man.
Unless you are IP-filtered, in which case I'll gladly forget the stupid subject and the stupid that invented the drivers fact to try to prove who-knows-what.
Just in case you got lost, let me bathe you in this again:
http://makeashorterlink.com/?L34F51C78
Straight from the horse's mouth...
Frosty, Frosty, Frosty... It's time for you to STFU + learn.
Either your accounts here have never been deleted before (which you say they have, and I say they should), or they have indeed been deleted and you have had no problem on coming back to fill again every thread with your crap, so ...just tell us about the drivers, my man.
Unless you are IP-filtered, in which case I'll gladly forget the stupid subject and the stupid that invented the drivers fact to try to prove who-knows-what.
Just in case you got lost, let me bathe you in this again:
http://makeashorterlink.com/?L34F51C78
Straight from the horse's mouth.
Good Lord, Girl! Are you really that slow? Click on my user name and get your Mommy to read to you what it says.
The existence of the drivers is pretty common knowledge among developers - maybe you should be concentrating your (no doubt) "exhaustive" search in a developer's forum rather than begging for answers in a moribund general interest Palm fanboy site. The two people I already told you about might let you know the truth if you emailed them and politely asked if the drivers have been created. Do you think you can be anything other than a rude little girl? Do you want me to lead you by the hand some more and tell you where to look? Are you really that helpless/hopeless? Both Mr. Combee and Mr. Mace can be easily contacted. If they ignore you (as do most people), try emailing Gavin Maxwell. He's a gifted developer/PalmOS expert that was dumped by PalmSource for some bizarre reason (probably so they could afford to give Mr. Nagel that $11,000,000 stock bonus) so he may be more willing to spoon feed you. No, I won't give you his email address - get your Mommy to spend five seconds typing it into Google for you.
As an aside, why on earth didn't Palm/PalmSource spend a few hundred thousand to hire and retain the following people years ago:
- The late Bozidar Benc
- Mike Waldron
- CES Dewar
- Gavin Maxwell
- Ben Combee
Having these people on board would have created an impressive base to build on.
Let's see... the (useless) Palm Knowledge Base denies the drivers exist, ergo they don't. Hmmmmmmm...
http://palminfocenter.com/profile.asp?ID=1131
http://www.palmsource.com/about/exec_team.html
http://palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=6866#94578
http://palminfocenter.com/profile.asp?ID=793
http://palminfocenter.com/view_story.asp?ID=6149
http://www.palminfocenter.com/view_story.asp?ID=5742
Frosty: For once, please just **** for a minute and EDUMACATE YOURSELF. Almost every time you post here you show what a complete newbie you are. Do a little background reading about Palm and PalmOS, then come back when you're older.
When Mace leaves PalmSource, how will the wolf survive?
This post will self destruct in five minutes.
Inbreeding at PalmSource
Is everyone there now a former Apple/AT&T employee or connected to David Nagel in some way? This kind of inbreeding leads to the "Yes man" mentality that has stifled development at Palm for so many years.
Nagel to Board: "Should we budget $1,000,000 to hire Mike Waldron, retain Gavin Maxwell and licence DateBk5 from CES Dewar, or should we vote for big bonuses for each other again this year? I say we go for the bonuses and bleed Palm dry."
Board (Chanting together): "Bonuses! Bonuses! We want the Bonuses!"
Note to Frosty: S T F U was bleeped out in the previous post. Look it up. Then do it. When you learn the error of your ways, will you come back here and beg forgiveness? Looking forward to seeing you grovel some more.
- Garth Cane (the evil twin, for all you KnightRider fans...)
This message is set to self-destruct in two minutes.
Facey in "Exhumating the horse to beat it a bit more"
While we're talking about that toy: have you managed to find anyone who knows Palms and Linux in that sinkhole of yours? And, how did s/he react to the fact of GCC being available native on PocketPCs? Did s/he cry? Did you manage to make her/him feel better by talking her/him about pdatoolbox?
Now for the new funny bits.
the (useless) Palm Knowledge Base denies the drivers exist, ergo they don't.
Sh*tHead Facey asserts the drivers exist, ergo they do.
The company that made the hardware made the drivers but don't want to sell them (because the point of the whole conspiration is just that, make drivers and then lock them on a big evil safe that will be sunk into the Marianas trench). No one, nowhere even mentions those drivers, or even expects them anymore, but our beloved Facey Knows. And in fact that's enough, no one else needs to know. 'cause He says, and we lesser beings believe.
I'm sorry, words don't make justice to the feeling.
Well, anyway, looks like you have made us the favour to search for and post those funny, funny links. Why don't just post the link to those fabled drivers, my man, and make me finally shut up? Wouldn't that be just easier and faster?
If the drivers existed, I mean.
C'mon, big boy, just a little teeny weeny proof of existence of those mythical drivers!
Perhaps if you desire them hard enough they'll just materialize in front of you...
(or you'll finally collapse, God forbids... heh)
But let's beat the horse a bit more. You mean those secrets you guard have been transferred to you by Mr. Combee, Mr. Mace, and who else, Ms. ToothFairy?
And they will tell anybody who just asks nicely, but they won't just publish it?
People like you just take profit of living on civilization, where people can't just go shooting a55holes on the street (not that I wouldn't prefer my bare hands, you know... I'm sure there would be a more deeply satisfaying, warm-tingling-inside quality to it)
Contacting Facey's contacts
Winter: Hi there. Have you finally developed OS 5 drivers for the BT SD card?
Palm exec: Why, of course! I'm using them right now. They're wonderful.
Winter: Why didn't you publish them??
Palm exec: Facey is Our Prophet. He talks in Our name. No need for Google, no need for the web: ask Facey and Believe. Oh, and forgive our knowledge base, it's a bit outdated. By the way, keep the secret, huh?
Would that be it? Facey?
(or have you been deleted? oh, gosh, I hope you haven't...)
No, I'm burying the horse.
(should I mail Mr. Mace and say "Hi, Facey told me to ask you about OS 5 BT SD drivers"? You want me to help extend your crap, don't you?)
(by the way, you insist on writing JAVA. It's not all caps, it's not an acronym. Java, man, Java. But of course, I'm the ignorant. Well, nevermind. Keep writing JAVA, perhaps that will tip off people to deduce who they are talking to.)
(well, it's understandable. There's no real Java for Palm, so surely it's ... well... the wilderness for you)
(oh, and one more thing: if you really had "friends" inside Palm... well, that would explain why Palm is struggling for air :P )
Facey's show MUST go on?
--If the drivers never appear and nobody ever confirm their existence, then you'll say you're right and the only one who knows about some evil plot.
--If the drivers never appear and furthermore somebody officially denies their existence, then you'll say you're right and that they're part of some evil plot.
--If the drivers never appear and somebody officially denies their existence but says that they're "studying the viability for some future time", then you'll say you're right and that finally they are moving on to the next phase of the evil plot.
--If the drivers never appear and the whole Palm universe suddenly collapses with every Palm* executive screaming on the streets that drivers nor plans to make them never existed and never could have ever existed, you'll say it all is a façade to hide the fact that the drivers are there and working (and, of course, that you're right)
--But, finally, if the drivers really appeared then I'll have to eat my words and apologize. Even if that was understandable because of your stubborn lack of any proofs, I'll just apologize. In fact, I'll give you till summer, which was what "your sources" predicted, remember? You see, I'm that gracious.
The problem is: I don't see a case which will make you just accept you're wrong - if not an outright liar.
You should be dead, Facey.
Hey, I forgot before: you wanted to meet me? you can find me on Valencia, Spain. When you're here, I'll phone you and we can meet somewhere to have some fun. (You like katanas? ;D)
ATTN: Ben Combee and Michael Mace
michael.mace@palmsource.com
We'll see how honest Palm is now, Frosty.
Garth Cane
Freedom of speech? Not on Palminfocenter, Baby!
That's right, Facey
if you really are right, of course I'll apologize.
The missing part is that I'd like to know what happens if you aren't right, "as usual". No evil plots this time, ok?
However, I find interesting that you can't provide a easy, sweet link to that clear, public info that you told me I should just google for. But, oh well, I'll even accept that. I can't make it easier for you, can I?
Now let's see.
RE: Price = $1000???????????????????????????
--
Ben Combee
http://palmos.combee.net - PDA programmer weblog
Thanks, Mr. Combee - but more questions!
Anyway, thanks for the info. (Interestingly, I got near on my post
http://www.palminfocenter.com/view_story.asp?ID=6846#94437)
While we're at it, would you mind answering to this, please?
http://www.palminfocenter.com/comment_view.asp?ID=6798#94140
Skeezix, from CodeJedi, already offered some very helpful info about the subject in the thread
http://www.palminfocenter.com/view_story.asp?ID=6858#94484.
But I guess/hope you could bring some more light.
For example: will things (like those driver's development) get easier on Cobalt?
Will porting to Palm OS get any easier?
Why the only JVM available for OS 5 devices is a CLDC (the kind designed for 16 bits, <400 KB devices), when a much more capable CDC (32 bits, >2 MB) would be more fitting?
Thank you.
Ben Combee...
Ben, If you really were not aware of the existence of the drivers, please check with your colleagues at Palm in charge of this aspect of the software and then post back whether or not the drivers exist. If you can HONESTLY say the drivers do not exist, we'll drop the subject. If you can't comment, we know why...
RE: Price = $1000???????????????????????????
_________________
Sean
Always remember that you are unique. Just like everyone else.
RE: Price = $1000???????????????????????????
--
Ben Combee
http://palmos.combee.net - PDA programmer weblog
It's not the size of the device that matters to me...
I support SD because I can easily carry one inside the device, and two more in my case without adding any noticeable bulk.
As some will undoubtedly point out, capacity has increased, and this might indicate that I shouldn't need multiple cards. My problem is that if I have the ability to fill up a card with data, I will. And the point of "removable media" is to be able to have multiple cards, right?
I currently carry three 256mb SD cards - two are about 75% full of music of a different type, and then filled-out with documents, etc. The third I use for movies and videos I carry with me (my boys at their talent show, for example).
So CF cards would be a hindrance to me. Also, I find that the speed difference make no difference to me. But then, that's just me.
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Use with Palm handhelds