Comments on: Gartner Says WinCE Out-Shipped the Palm OS in Q3

More spin form the Microsoft lapdogs in my opinon.

Funny, I've never seen anything to indicate that PPC has any higher of a return rate than Palm. I suspect that you're pulling this 'fact' out of your never-ending stash of platform bias. If you've got actual evidence, please present it. If your backup is the same unsubstaniated tripe about how horrible PocketPC is to use that every other Palm crusader around here spouts without ever having touched a PocketPC, please don't bother.

By the way, PocketPC and Windows Mobile are two names for the same thing, and sales of actual raw "Windows CE" devices are next to non-existant. These numbers aren't faked, kids.

Please provide links to these "valid statistics" that indicate that rougly 38.1611290634408% of Windows CE devices are returned and 0% of Palm OS devices are, because that is what it would take for CE to fall to 850,820 units, one unit behind PalmOS.

More spin form the Microsoft lapdogs in my opinon.

Maybe you are just dizzy from your own spinning?

Thousands upon thousands of Windows CE devices that are used in factory, warehouse, retail and other commercial settings often for tracking inventory, scanning barcodes, etc. They are counting Symbol's devices that fit this category, so I have little doubt that a large percentage of the "other" 500,000 unaccounted for Windows CE devices in this table are also of that type.

The interesting thing now is that criticism is now coming from Palm afficionados. The majority of the people raising concerns are current palm users. This is different! Now Palm users are starting to envy WinMobile devices (BT, Wifi, + voice recorder, etc...). This is a startling change.

I have been a Palm loyalist/fanatic for 6+ years. I used to change PDAs every 8 months or so. I am now considering a switch to Windows Mobile as I do not want to spend money to buy the T5 (innovation + "wow" factor - missing functions just does not add up for me). I have been unhappily using my Tungsten C for its wifi. I don't want something (SD) sticking out of my PDA nor do I want to carry it in a large case (Enfora) or use an unsupported device (Sony). There are no viable Palm PDAs with wifi.

Also, do you remember when Palm service was actually great?

The problems are not the doings of MS. The problems lies fully in PalmOne and Palm Source.

This is a sad day.

The ship is sinking!

So is PalmSource.

"I don't believe these data. Palm OS still dominate the market, I didn't see anybody around me using PPC."

That's not a statistically valid sampling. Gartner offers hard data to back up their numbers, and it's generally considered to be a sign of fanaticism to faith in the presence of conflicting facts.

I'll put $10 on the fact that PalmOne will not have as good of a Christmas selling season as last year, and even so far as not as good as HP's this year. If their T5 is their best shot, it's FUBAR. Stands for everything I'm against in the PDA realm.

-Bosco
NX80v + Wifi + BT + T637

I have a TH55 and I am seriously considering a T5. I like that Palm. Sure it could be better, or cheaper, or whatever... the point is that you can not overule it just because you do not like it. Likewise, if I like it, that does not mean that it is the ultimate PDA.

Can money produce THE product? Microsoft (Windows media center, PPC and some failures) seems to know the answer...

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Current fan of a 320x480 tablet shaped Palm with built in BT+Wifi for less than US$450

It's disgraceful that Acer can put a microphone and Bluetooth in its handheld for £180 whilst PalmOne's T5 top of the range handheld can't offer a microphone at £260.

I am definitely NOT buying the abomination that is the T5, which is let's face it the ugly result of a Tunsten E frankensteined with a 256Mb memory card and the screen from a T3.

I'm going to sit in the UK sulking until 2005, when PalmOne finally finds it in its grace to unleash the Treo 650 in Europe. That with a 256Mb card will give me the much needed voice recording AND kill two birds with one stone for me - mobile and handheld.

There is your big mistake! You think the mass market wants something revolutionary. That is not true. Only net geeks like you want new stuff right now. We are just comming out of recession. The mass market is not as techo-hungry as you.

The USB Flash Drive + PDA combo is going to sell very, very well. As George Carlon said (while he doesn't bitch about Bush) a while ago, "Put to things together that has never been together before, and lot of schmucks will buy it." Viola! We have a great combination here.

And the one thing NONE of you techo-addicts-never-gets-laid-crowd can see is that having a Flash drive in the T5 will do the following:

* Limit HotSync and the need for conduits.
* Have a user carry around a Palm device more since it is not just for running Palm apps anymore -- it is a digital wallet!
* Has a potential to run MULITIPLE OSes on a single device.

Please take your head out of your "I want an ultimate Palm device" butt and see what the real market is please!

... or all of you at Star Trek conventions or watching Anime at home too much?

- Why o why don't we all change to PPC if they have all the best stuff (allegedly that is).
- Why o why am I starting to look over to the PPC info more frecuently?
- Why o why everytime I look at the Axims and new iPaqs I find their form factor so repelling?
- Why o why do we think that talking "BIG" will make our points more valid?

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Current fan of a 320x480 tablet shaped Palm with built in BT+Wifi for less than US$450

Ah..the Adventures of Baron Von Munchausen continues. Rhino, only net geeks like you are buying PDAs at all, in case you haven't noticed. The average consumer doesn't want them, or need them. The hottest selling gadget(s) this holiday season isn't going to be a PDA, it will be consumer gear such as iPods, PVRs, game consoles, HDTVs, digital cameras, etc. Handhelds have become marginalized, and only a blind Palm zealot like yourself could possibly believe that PalmOne is winning this fight against Microsoft, as its market share continues to decline while Pocket PC grows.

But then again you're also the same person who said Pocket PC put countless startup companies out of business (without providing names or any valid proof), and that the Tungsten C is the hottest selling wireless PDA on the market; both laughable claims.

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Editor, http://Pocketfactory.com
Contributing Editor, http://digitalmediathoughts.com

http://www.1src.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=73776#post73776

(Forgive the long URL - never have been able to get the hang of the TinyURL service!)

Frankly, speaking as a Palm fan for over 7 years, I feel you are whistling in the dark. What's happening to Palm reminds me of what happened to WordPerfect. Proponents making the same defensive responses to gradually loss of market share AND inferiority of features.

If I could get a PPC that ran Palm OS, I would. The ONLY thing that keeps me with Palm1 is the OS and the apps available. From a hardware perspective (which is what Palm1, not PalmSource, is selling), Palm1 is simply on longer competitive.

Stop blaming the messanger and start recognizing that the only area Palm1 is competative is in smart phones. And, frankly, if they continue to lose sale in PDAs, they may not have the money to invest in smart phones (what happened to Handspring).

Regardless of whether we agree or disagree with the research firms assessment of which is better (I agree, I think the Palm OS is better for my needs), it doesn't mean the metrics are wrong.

If you need to feel angry at anyone, maybe it should be PalmSource and Palm1.

PalmSource, due to its totally lack of ability to license the OS (and why the HECK is no one introducing OS6--what's wrong with that product).

Palm1, because (and this is coming from a LONG time Palm bigot) it has gone from releasing good, stable, dependable products at a good price to over priced (T5), under featured (sorry--no WIFI??? except the TC and high end model without voice, vibrating alarms or a CRADLE???) and with poor quality control. The latter has even caused me (Palmoid of 7 years) to look at the Dark Side, because of the gradually increasing quality issues:

Pilot 5000-->none
Handspring VDX-->1
Tungsten t1-->2
Tungsten t2-->3
Tungestn t3-->none so far.

However at the same time I refuse to accept the idea that the Treo 600 is not being counted.

I know plenty of people who used to have a $400 PDA and a free phone who upgraded their PDA to the Treo 600.

IMHO at the price-point and feature-point, the Treo should CLEARLY be listed as a PDA.

Why is it that a WIFI or BLUETOOTH radio doesn't take a PDA out of the count but a Cellular Radio does?

I don't know what the Treo numbers were and I'm sure that even WITH the TREO PalmOne would be behind, but not as much.

Alessandro

The good news is that there is plenty of freeware or shareware to customise the device the way you like it, such as taskmanagers (like pocketplus) that will give you a REAL close button, and today screen launchers like tdlaunch (which should make old palmistas feel right at home).

Either way, I think the pocketpc vs palm battle has reached a tipping point. At this stage people will start to think of buying into an OS with a future, which will lead to accelerating movement away from Palm OS. Think of Netscape VS IE. The remarkable think is that in this case it occurred without any underhanded tactics from MS, and even quite lacklustre support. The main advantage has been the assumption that hardware will catch up with OS demands, while Palm aways tried to live within hardware limitations, resulting in limited products.

Thank God for Moore's Law

Surur

PS: why did this story take so long to make it to palminfocenter. It has been out for at least 2 days everywhere else...

I hope Rome's intelligence is not representative of most Palm users. To try and make it clear, there was a time when people cared as much about their browser as they did about their handheld. It was not called the browser wars for nothing. Secondly, the point I made was MS is winning this battle fair and square, without bundling handhelds with desktops for example. It can only be due to genuine failings on the part of the Palm OS and devices. Thirdly one of the main arguments against the PPC OS has always been that it requires too much hardware to run. But hardware caught up long ago with the requirements for the OS. Palm is still stuck with the legacy of designing an OS to run at 33 megahertz.

Surur

Yes, and he's saying that Microsoft hasn't had to do anything like that to benefit PocketPC, that it's rising on its merits and the merits of pushing the hardware envelope.

"Third, Moore's Law is about doubling the number of transistors on a piece of silicon, not about OS."

He's talking about processor speeds.

"As for the previous person who switched to Dell, I am happy that you found something that meets your need. It is a free economy and competition drives innovation. However, I don't think you can compare the price of a refurbuished Dell to the retail street price of a Palm. You can find refurbuished Palms at significantly discount as well."

A brand new 624 MHz X30 is cheaper than a refurbished T3.

"Also, the Sony UX50 offers both bluebooth and wifi, and has been doing so for over a year. I am surprised that you didn't look into that solution."

Uh, in case you've been too busy worshipping PalmOne, Sony pulled out of the market this year. UX50s no longer have any support at all. Oh, and they're $150 more expensive than a smaller, faster, more stylish unit from Dell. $250 more, if you buy a refurbished Axim. Which, all in all, seems to sum up the state of the Palm community--Palm at any cost, no matter how bad it is.

By the way, angerson, I recommend the freeware WISbar (original, not Advance) 1.4. It lets you either close or minimize programs from the corner X, as well as a lot of other neat things like task switching, and a battery icon. It's the first thing I install whenever I use a PocketPC.

"Death can come swiftly to a market leader. By the time you have lost the positive-feedback cycle it's often too late to change what you've been doing, and all of the elements of a negative spiral come into play." - Bill Gates, "The Road Ahead", Chapter 3

Really??? There is a beer war going on right here in the good U.S.A, and it is called Bud vs. Miller. Should I compare this "war" to the PDA war or the Browser war as well. Damn it, people still care about their beer. You simply assumed that every technology battle is the same and that Microsoft will always come out on top. How about that Intuit Quicken vs. Money battle? Who won that one? How about AOL vs MSN? How about Playstation vs. Xbox? How about yahoo, ebay, google vs any Microsoft Internet initiative? Are these battles all going to end up like the browser battle?

As for your rude "intelligence" remark, I will not lower myself to respond to such comment.

"Secondly, the point I made was MS is winning this battle fair and square, without bundling handhelds with desktops for example. It can only be due to genuine failings on the part of the Palm OS and devices."

Really??? Was bundling the only illegal thing that Microsoft ever did? Ever heard of something called illegal advertising rebate? illegal promotional allowance? Unfair and preferential pricing? Not to mention that Microsoft has been subsidizing their mobile division from the beginning, and that division is till losing money today. Sure this subsidization is not illegal, but it is certainly nice to run a business and not to have to worry about profitability. Palm has had its share of problems and mistakes and should shoulder a lot of blame for losing the market share, but to blindly suggest that Microsoft is winning this battle fair and square, you are just naive.

"Thirdly one of the main arguments against the PPC OS has always been that it requires too much hardware to run. But hardware caught up long ago with the requirements for the OS. Palm is still stuck with the legacy of designing an OS to run at 33 megahertz."

Again, your logic is one-dimensional and linear. It goes like this: higher clock speed, more capable OS code, hence better PDA. Let's apply this logic to buying a car: bigger engine, more horse power, hence better car. You know what you will end up buying if you use this logic, a bus!!!

Unfortunately, this is the thinking that has prevailed in the technology industry for the last 20 years. Intel puts out ever faster processors so that Microsoft can write fatter codes. I sincerely hope that Palmone and Palmsource grow and prosper, because I am so sick and tired of this Microsoft Mononpoly.

In fact, many people pay more purely out of brand loyalty everyday. Many women will only buy Tide detergent simply because that's whay their mothers used. Drivers will pay more for Exxon gas because that's what they believe is the best. And many people pay more for a notebook PC because it is an IBM.

You are right about giving consumers a reason to be loyal to a brand, and your reasons are features (wifi and bluebooth). For other, the reasons may be the simplicity of the OS, better industrial design, better software integration, or the 1.3MP camera on the Zire 72.

Wrong. During periodic sales--just as refurbed T3s are periodically available--the X30 goes for about $255-260. And the X30 midrange, still considerably more capable than the T3, goes for $230.

"And many people pay more for a notebook PC because it is an IBM."

That's hardly 'brand loyalty'. People, particularly corporations, buy IBM because they're practically bulletproof--more solidly built than anyone else's machines. Better quality.

I may disagree your opinion, but I respect them. Isn't this what brand loyalty is all about? And why should PDA be any different? Many people pay more for Sony Electronic products simply because they are Sony.

"This isn't necessarily true for computers & handhelds where other factors come into play such as familiarity (not necessarily ease of use), compatability & usability. PDAs are simply far too marginal to exist on brand alone. The people who buy them are either very casual users (one may argue a good percentage of these comprise the Palm camp) or hardcore, technically savvy users. If Palm can continue to find growth in the casual user segment, they'll do fine. Brand means a lot to those not in the know. Otherwise they have to compete at the power user level and will be forced to compete on features."

I agree with most of your points here. But don't you think that the potential mainstream PDA/Smartphone market is significantly bigger than the power user market?

"This perceived decline in numbers I think is largely a decline in power users. The casual user market is probably nearing saturation and most of what's left is sales propelled by power-user upgrades (people like me). If Palm can't convince me to stay they didn't only lose a sale of a T5, they lost a sale of a new product every other year for the next five years (if my buying trends remained constant). When you add it up, that hurts the brand."

Gartner numbers are cooked. As I had previously mentioned, Gartner consistently left out Treo sales while including Blackberries and iPaq 6315. Palm made a decision some time ago to shift effort to the smartphone market. I am certainly not happy with their traditional PDA effort lately, but I must say that their Treo products are the best in class. In fact, I am getting a Treo 650 this Christmas. And there are many other power users like me who have made the leap to smartphones as well. I am sad to see you leave the Palm community, and I hope that Palmone or somebody else will come out with a kick-ass PDA in the future to bring you back.

;-D

By the way, congratulations for having kept a great site going for so long. I hope Palm doesn't withdraw advertising $ from PIC because of all the negative publicity Cobalt and the Tungsten "5" have received here. (If you end up running into financial problems, you should put up a PayPal donation account link on the main page.)

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Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.

No, I'm talking about premium availability. On the best days, an X30 runs $252, and a refurbed T3 is $260. On the worse days, an X30 is $314 and you can't get a refurbed T3.

"Also keep in mind that the Dell's price is already 10% of list."

Dell NEVER sells for list price. There's always some kind of sale going on, usually 10-15%, sometimes coupons. In any event, you're bulls---ting here. The point is that the T3 is as expensive or more so that a much more powerful machine.

"you can now buy a brand new T5+free case+free shipping for $269 after coupon and rebate. Now, how does this deal compare to the X3?"

You want to compare the T5 to a machine with Bluetooth, WiFi, 624 MHz, microphone, and a removable battery for the same price? Go ahead. Your funeral.

"You argue that it is more "capable" than T3 simply becasue it has wifi. I argue that T3 is more capable because it has a better display with higher resolution, a faster processor, and more software."

The 'more software' meme hasn't rung true for years. These days, there's just as much current software available for PPC as there is for Palm--much of it being the same applications. A faster processor is debatable--how much Palm OS software can use it? And the higher resolution doesn't help much either. PalmSource has never implemented sub-pixel font rendering in OS 5. The result is that text still looks rough, whereas it doesn't on a PocketPC with SPFR.

"A new Zire 72 can be had for $210 today. Same processor, no built-in wifi, better software bundle, a 1.3mp camera. So which is more capable? The midrange X30 or the Zire 72? Doesn't the answer depend on whether you want a camera or wifi?"

Well, judging from the sales numbers, people seem to prefer WiFi. Not to mention the huge problem with the Zire 72 where the paint literally peels off the case until it's stripped, something you don't get on a PocketPC, and the almost comically bad images from the camera.

The customers have spoken, and they're speaking into the voice recorders on their brand new PocketPCs.

;-O

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Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.

As if I wouldn't see your comment, you sleaze. Call your OBGYN. You're overdue for your smear.

That was a generous attempt, Ryan. But then shouldn't Sony's market share simply have been taken over by the remaining vendors? Or did everyone that would have bought a CLIE just decide to not buy anything now that Sony's bitten the dust?

Let's not make excuses for Palm's performance. Palm is slipping along its downward spiral because for years it's been fleecing consumers with poorly made, overpriced, PDAs with limited features + an undeveloped OS. And they've been doing it for so long that now that they don't know how to do any better. Fortunately, it seems likely that Cobalt will ultimately be adaptable to PPC hardware, so in the end it won't matter if PalmOne goes under. Microsoft is probably just waiting patiently until when they can swoop in and pick up a bankrupt PalmSource for a firesale price. Yup, splitting Palm up was a good move - for Microsoft. Now when they buy the PalmOS they don't have to pay for a useless hardware company as well.

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Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.

not to mention, they would be sued if they beat the competition overnight :)

But all that is in the past.

The Tungsten T5 is now here and it is poised to strongly reinforce PalmOne's market share and financial status.

The T5 is a formidable handheld with no known hardware flaws to date. It is wrongly getting a bad rap because many handheld users are cynical after going through the last few years buying questionable models.

Have you checked the price of the Dell Axim X50v and HP HX PPCs? The T5 is priced accordingle. I would like all PDAs to cost less, but these guys have to make a profit.

- "The power button is nearly useless. ..."

Quite the opposite. The T3 button was hard to press and had no "click" feedback. The T5 button does. However, to be fair, sometimes you have to press it twice to turn on the unit. It is weird, but far from a nuisance, let alone a "major flaw"; that is simply not true.

- "The speaker connection is dubious,"

And why exactly are you doubting the speaker? My T5 plays radio shows and music all the time with the back speaker. Its is loud and clear. The stereo jack feed is absolutely fabulous; far superior to the audio on the T3. If anything, P1 should be applauded for the sound features of the T5; not doubted. :-
- "... and god knows how long the flash memory will last before it dies."

Pure speculation.

The T5 is king now, and many people just don't know it yet.

Alucard has spoken. Begone!

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Sony CLIE UX100: 128 MB real RAM, OLED screen. All the PDA anyone really ever wanted.

My,.. aren't WE tense.

Anyway, my point was not saying that the stats would be reversed, I just thought it was odd that they would treat similar devices differently. If the statement is that the Treo would not have an effect, then I respectfully disagree. While sales of some PPC smartphones may be ok, I've not seen reports of demand being so high that they cannot build them fast enough. I don't stay up at night wondering what the stats are, or why p1 got the name wrong on the TE2, why I like the new iPaqs better than the T5, or why I think WM sucks. I've had multiple units of both OS's, and my next device may not be the same as what currently fits my needs. If 'who's first' is so important to anyone that they cannot breathe, then that person (not you specifically) needs to remember that the Ford Pinto was 'first' in a lot of things... then get a life.

It wouldn’t have tipped the balance. It didn’t sell a half million units this quarter. Not even close.

“While sales of some PPC smartphones may be ok, I've not seen reports of demand being so high that they cannot build them fast enough.”

Despite how often that’s repeated here, it’s not true about the Treo either. PalmOne said many months ago that all previous supply constraints on the Treo 600 had been eliminated. They have plenty of stock to sell all they can, now.

“I was not talking about general software availability. I was talking about software included with the T5 and X30.”

Oh really? Sounds kind of irrelevant to me, as well as moving the goal posts.

“And Palm OS still has more software than PocketPC, and to be more precise, about 10,000 programs more. Here is another link to back my point.”

Any accounting of Palm apps on PalmGear or anywhere else is likely to include a great many that are no longer compatible with new devices. In any event, that’s irrelevant. The whole point of argument Palm users have always tried to use the software issue to push is that Palms can do so much more than PocketPCs. Not only is that not true, it’s easily argued the other way. I’d like to see stats on how many new apps there are for Palm VS PPC. I don’t care how many knitting and cigar-smoking advice apps for the Palm III you can produce, it doesn’t amount to a software advantage for the Palm OS.

“What sales number? Those Gartner numbers are units shipped, not sold.”

Units shipped eventually means units sold. When these are shipped to a retail store, they stay there until they’re sold. Likewise for online retailers and warehouses. They don’t go back to the manufacturer.

“I am certain that there are many people out there who prefer PocketPC to Palm. But the reverse is also true.”

Yes! Finally! Somebody gets the point that just because they prefer Palm doesn’t make PocketPC the spawn of Satan.

“What I don’t get is why would anyone want another Microsoft Monopoly in the mobile OS market?”

Who said anything about wanting it?

“Look at what happened to the IE after MS “won” the browser war….the innovations slowed down dramatically.”

I wouldn’t know, I don’t use it.

Who here is advocating for MS? My personal point is threefold.

One, that despite the deeply ingrained dogma here, Palm users need to wake up and realize that Palm OS is not as perfect, dominant, and infallible as they seem to thing. Also, that while they may prefer Palm, the competition isn’t evil or half as bad as Palm users believe.

Two, PalmSource needs to get off their ass and build an OS that can compete. I was just reading today about how PalmOne is STILL avoiding Cobalt 6.1 because the smartphone features are so lacking that it doesn’t even have support for basic CDMA network functions. That’s the tip of the iceberg. There’s things that Palm OS should have been able to do for years, like file systems, networking, WiFi, memory card integration, multitasking, and dozens of other things. They need to have a capable OS NOW, if it’s not already too late. Handhelds are no longer the glorified dayplanners and calculators PalmSource seems to treat them like.

Three, that PalmOne needs to get off THEIR ass, and produce hardware which actually competes on both features and price. That’s the only way Palm OS will survive. Otherwise, it’ll end up either going under or becoming the Apple of the handheld world, hanging onto its tiny notch of loyal, almost cultish users.

You keep telling me that you have shown me some "data points" that proved your claim. Your "data points" are simply your own references. Can you show me links to third party sources that can back up your claim? So far, you have shown me 0 link.

M$ wins once again ? HAHA

- What about RIM ? (very profitable, see the overwhelming performances of blackberry !!! )
- What about nokia : more than 2'000'000 smartphones sold...

The problem of P1 in firms is very common : "How can we manage all these units efficiency : security, software, exchange...?" And there are 2 solutions :
- RIM, or
- "you've never been fired if you choose M$, even if you are a Dude :)"